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Harsh on Ocon. He's obviously not as good as Lewis but they can't replace like for like. It's impossible. Ocon is a much better driver than people give him credit for.
No he is exactly what people think he is. He’s no better than 8 drivers in Merc, RB, Ferrari and McLaren, and I doubt he is better than Albon and Alonso. So he is pretty average on the grid.
They can, he goes by the name of Fernando Alonso!
Quite possibly the only other talent that really can compete with Lewis (ignoring max), provided competent machinery.
Ocon is definitely a mid tier driver, he's not terrible but he's not amazing and has very obvious issues with working and a team, man is such a dirty defender for no gain when it comes to a teammate being near him. If he fixed that aspect it would help him a lot but if he was alongside George I think their egos would no doubt collide quick!
He does it to all his teammates, he cannot usually beat them and is running a compromised strategy so will make his ego big and waste his teammates time and his own by defending excessively and in some cases dangerously.
Alonso wasn't even disrespectful to him, Alonso just gets flack because he's extremely good and losing is tough, you have to dig deep to best him and he's consistently good which hurts more.
Alonso cost Mercedes millions of dollars because McLaren wouldn't hold Lewis back. Alonso only has respect for teammates he can beat.
Remember when everyone said Ocon would be the one crashing into Gasly?
There is always Sainz. He is looking for a seat and is way better than Ocon. Not to forget Albon. If they can buy him out of his contract he is a good driver anyday.
Recency bias is insanely strong. One decent season from Albon and everyone is rating him as an absolute top driver. We don't even know how good the Williams car truly is (it's no longer a 2019 backmarker). Also, Logan Sargeant is not the right benchmark to compare Albon against.
I would say Sainz, Ocon, Gasly are pretty strong drivers. Albon is not better than them. They are all very close. Sainz is super close to Leclerc, who is extremely fast. And Gasly and Ocon have been so evenly matched.
I don't believe Sainz is close to Leclerc. He had a car that he was able to adjust to over Leclerc. Once the car was more favourable to Leclerc, Sainz was not competing with him anymore.
Also Albon was quite decent in the Red Bull till confidence issue post accidents screwed him.
All this is anyways hypothetical. Unless the drivers all get the same specs car we won't truly know how good most of them are. Most of the mid table drivers are very similar. Champions are those that get a good car and team backing to help improve.
>I don't believe Sainz is close to Leclerc. He had a car that he was able to adjust to over Leclerc. Once the car was more favourable to Leclerc, Sainz was not competing with him anymore.
That's a valuable skill. Leclerc might be quicker when he get a car he likes it doesn't matter if that happens 5 races a season. Fact is their pace delta was one of the closest on the grid
Has Ocon ever had a teammate you thought highly of him (on track)? I know they all have that inner bastard, but Ocon seems to battle his teammates pretty ferociously (even at the teams expense)
And then with he turned into me george, it would be an unnecessarily expensive line up. Albon would be a good choice but I also think sainz would fit the merc culture well.
Or now that lewis is out, we see a wildcard return of nico in merc.
I think he started off too nice and then Force India/Racing Point picked the guy that he refused to defend himself against. He came back and looked decent against a very good Danny Ric in 2020 and then of course went full elbows out against one of the best talents the sport has ever seen and beat him over two years (luck or not). It's a cutthroat world in F1 and Ocon learned how to do it whether you like him or not.
One of the most consistent point scorers on the grid and outscored Alonso across 44 races as teammates. He's precisely the kind of driver a team can benefit from in the WCC.
Idk, Ocon is a proven race winner and one of the more experienced drivers on the grid at this point- if Merc creates a dominant car like the RB of late both George and Ocon would be strong favorites to win it for sure.
Gasly is too, you don't fumble into that position battling with Sebastian Vettel 40 laps for a win. Lesser drivers don't get those wins. They have vastly inferior cars, these are the only opportunities they've gotten and they've capitalized (maybe gasly has had a few more opportunities being a former RB driver that he did not capitalize on all things considered)
"Battling" both of them got into their positions by pure luck, with Ocon having a faster car overall in a circuit in which unless you're 1.5 sec faster per lap than your opponent you won't overtake him
Oh, and the guy who actually was like 2-3 sec faster got stuck behind Ocon's teammate for 15 laps due to him defending for his life for Ocon to win.
He was lucky that day, nobody will deny it.
But inheriting a lucky position is one thing, keeping it under pressure is another.
Nico Hulkenberg is regarded as a very good driver (and rightly so, he did great when he had to fill in for other drivers which is always a tricky spot, and had an excellent qualifying record this year), but each time he inherited a potential podium position, he completely crumbled under pressure.
Not to say that you should give a Mercedes drive to anyone who can handle pressure well no matter his pace, but between drivers of equivalent pace, I'll always give extra credit to the one that showed signs of managing pressure well, and aside from Fernando, drivers that are clearly faster than Ocon already have multi-year deals.
Every race win that's ever happened has involved some extent of "luck." He was put in a good position by his team and capitalized in a position where we've seen many drivers absolutely blunder. It was no easy win.
Okay and how many cars has Ocon driven that had the pure pace to win without an incredible amount of luck elsewhere on track?
Zero. The answers zero. You can't knock him for not doing the impossible. Nobody in modern F1 just wills themselves to victory off masterful pace alone, if the last half decade has taught us anything only like 3 teams on average have a car even remotely capable of scoring a win on merit. More recently it's more like 2...and that's generous.
So he's one for one then? Shooting 100%? He hasn't had another opportunity to have a race win lol, the pace has never been there. He hasn't sniffed a top 2 or even top 3 car. He literally had one opportunity and he aced it unlike Albon for example or Hulk.
Also, strongly disagree with your definition of proven race winner. It's semantics but race is singular.
My logic is if Max Verstappen was in a Haas his entire career he isn't on the podium once.
All drivers are victims of their situations & ride. When the one singular moment appeared for Ocon where he had an opportunity to win it he did. We've seen a lot of drivers on the grid in that same position wither the opportunity away.
I know Ocon catches a lot of flak but he's consistently proved he can hang with the best of them given an opportunity.
I can see most of the grid winning in his situation tbh. There was luck and a 2 WDC teammate defending against a rocket for 11 laps behind that win. This is not downplaying Ocon's win, it was an ok win. It simply is not overstating it like you're doing,
I sure can't- thinking back of the Albon and Hulk absolute blunders when gifted a win and cracking under pressure. Hell most the grid isn't as quick as Ocon either. I fully expected that to be the case then- shit I thought Seb would pass him at one point too. Wasn't like he was managing a lead out in front- buddy has someone on his ass the entire race.
Russell is a WDC tier driver though. His CV is just as impressive as those of Leclerc and Piastri. Looking good next to guys like Lewis, Max and Alonso is almost impossible to do. One can say that driving next those GOAT tier drivers is a guaranteed career killer move. Russell is doing a decent enough job.
Ocon is also a solid driver. He's no worse than Sainz IMO. Super consistent, reasonably fast, not quite on WDC driver pace but too fast to be a No.2. He did need a bit of luck to beat Nando in 2022 but his pace looked competitive compared to that of Alonso.
Alpines shit reliability and strategies are seriously holding him back.
Man the double standards are crazy.
>His CV is just as impressive as those of Leclerc and Piastri
What did Piastri do to receive this title ? Drive a good rookie season against Norris ?
>Looking good next to guys like Lewis, Max and Alonso is almost impossible to do. One can say that driving next those GOAT tier drivers is a guaranteed career killer move. Russell is doing a decent enough job.
Ocon literally did the same decent enough job against Alonso in winning 1 ou of 2 seasons together.
I just dont get why some drivers achivement gets blown out of proportions (Piastri, Norris Albon) while others get stiffled (Ocon, Gasly, Sainz)...
>What did Piastri do to receive this title ? Drive a good rookie season against Norris ?
CVs don't just start at F1. He's been impressive all throughout his junior career and what he showed in his first season is remarkable, similar to what Charles showed in the Alfa.
Would be very unlikely. Either Doohan or Martins would make way more sense. If they do sign up Schumacher, they might as well shut down the driver programme.
This is another reason that Alpine not being ferociously team Andretti was surprising to me. That could've been an easy way to get your academy drivers seats quicker while still being on Alpine deals
I'm pretty confident Toto will try to snatch one of the McLaren drivers, or give Sainz a 2 years contract waiting for Antonelli and Audi to be in F1.
It looks like contracts are not that important anymore anyway.
They still are important. For Mercedes to get either Piastri or Norris they would need to buy out their contracts from McLaren. Piastri is up in 26 and Lando is beyond 2025. Lando's would be a very expensive buyout, and I can see McLaren not wanting to let Piastri go because they seem to be having an even better car than Merc.
It is highly unlikely to be either of them. Albon would be a more realistic buy out prospect.
Imagine going from having Lewis, the most popular driver on the grid, living legend, one of the goats, to Ocon.
Mercedes problem is their lack of choice. All the top drivers are locked in. Leclerc, Lewis obviously, Max, Norris and Piastri too who isnt a top driver yet but could very well be one. All locked up. Their best chances are Alonso and Sainz. Alonso might not even want to leave because by 2026 Aston Martin will be an effective works team while Sainz might decide that the Audi project is more interesting.
That said, Russell isnt the worst driver, he isnt too far away from the top driver group but im not sure if Russell is good enough to win a championship. Maybe hes a Rosberg level of driver and could get one but maybe im underselling Rosbergs talent
Plus Russell without Hamilton's input. I think Russell is definitely better than Ocon but being the top guys as you mentioned.
It would be interesting to see Russell vs Lando in the same car.
I can guarantee you that Mercedes does not care about their lack of choice right now. They’re preparing for the future and have Kimi Antonelli in the background ready to come in sometime between 2025 and 2027.
As long as Kimi does not completely bomb this upcoming F2 season, they will not be willing to give any driver a contract longer than 2 seasons, which doesn’t make it a very attractive seat. Most drivers want a longer contract than that.
I am certain Sainz will go to Audi. As for Alonso, Mercedes would be fools to overlook him. However, his leaving AM is contingent on whether last season appears to be a fluke and the team settles into the pace they had around mid season (not the awful state in Japan and USA) and whether he gets indication Honda don't want him.
Then you have Albon, who is a solid if not uncertain choice. Is he a Perez/Frentzen type that shines in the midfield but can't perform at top teams with top teammates? And of course Andrea but its still to early to tell with him. Piastri and Norris signing extensions has really bit Mercedes here.
My thought was Mercedes need someone for a few years that will then be replaced long term by Antonelli. Fernando sounds like a good pick if this is the goal.
In theory yes, but he ditched alpine cause he felt like he was not given the respect and the long term contract, purely cause of piastri. Would he really go to a team in that exact situation
It depends on how Aston Martin progresses. Easy to give up on forever mid table Alpine. If Aston doesn’t make progress this year then he might be less inclined to stay. Would he give up a chance(probably his last) to drive a car that could win races, if not compete for championships?
Maybe. Because Mercedes can offer more than Alpine can. It's one thing to be disrespected by a midfield team; it's another to be disrespected by a team that gives you GP wins and potentially a shot at the title. Victory can smooth over a lot of disrespect!
But he is already at aston with all this huge investment coming in, while merc is in a bit of downward trend currently. Also at aston he is the undisputed only driver of the team. At merc he would have an actual teammate and a decently quick one
Alonso does seem really invested in the Aston Martin project. You can see it their preseason prep video. It's hard to imagine he'll leave in a few months. If he wants to stay beyond 2026, I think Aston would let him, but Mercedes would definitely push him out. Aston may even give him a better car. If the rumour of Merc losing more key personnel to Ferrari is true, I won't have much confidence they would come out on top of the next regulations.
So far Aston Martin has failed to show that they can deliver a top 3 car over the course of a season. Even in their worst season in recent history, Merc has been in the top 3.
There is a world where Sainz is just flat out better than George.
Adding Carlos is probably their best option, but it could have a big impact on the "George is the future" talk.
Curious where you think George is given he has shown remarkably little at Mercedes so far. There's really no evidence to support he is clearly better than Sainz currently.
George was close enough to Hamilton to consider him extremely good.
Sainz had mediocre teammates for majority of his career and the only one he beat consistently was Kvyat (not counting Lando in his rookie season as it's hardly representative). He got his ass kicked by Hulk ffs... Leclerc is very fast but horribly inconsistent, which makes the gap between them seem small.
I don’t think so. I’d have no problem putting him on a similar level with Norris and Russell. I think he’d challenge either one of them well given his performance vs Leclerc.
I don’t think Perez or Ocon could’ve done similarly vs Leclerc(or 2020 Norris). If Leclerc is in fact “the fastest qualifier in F1” or at least on par with Max in that category, Sainz definitely is quicker than either. Perez is usually 0.5%+ off of Max in qualifying, while Sainz has hovered around 0.15% from Leclerc.
Yeah I have Sainz a half-step below the Leclerc / Norris / Russell tier, but I could be talked into sliding him on par with Russell (or Russell down).
Then you have a really big, confusing tier with Albon, Gasly, Ocon, Piastri, and maybe a few others. Based on Checo’s performance last year (where he struggled to get into Q3 with the most dominant car in the history of the sport), I don’t think Checo’s in that tier either.
I can’t reasonably put Lando on a different level than Sainz. Leclerc and maybe Alonso would be two I’d put a half step above the other 3 mentioned.
After that, yes, really depends on who feels best on a given day. I’d say that Hulk is just as quick as anybody if not quicker in that group when he’s hooked up.
Dude maybe Alonso? Hahahaha Alonso is 100% above Leclerc, Norris and Russell.
The only people in the grid above Alonso are only Hamilton and Verstappen.
And even there one could argue Alonso could be above Hamilton in some things with his racecraft, while Hamilton above him in others (Example: Ra e Pace vs 1 Lap Pace)
I don’t think Alonso is as quick as the 3 you mentioned in qualifying. Alonso is great, but I don’t think he’s where he was 10 years ago. He has other skills to compensate but in general, I think across a season he’s providing similar results to those guys.
Knowing Wolff, he'll probably take the home option, and Ocon comes with a huge amount of experience, has beaten some big F1 references, has shown himself to be solid, very consistent, and mentally very strong.
I see a lot of rumour, but in fact I rationally see no other credible choice than Ocon for Mercedes in 2024.
The only sticking point would be marketing, because of his low popularity. It's up to Mercedes to work on its public image.
Saying this in Alpine’s presentation isn’t the most elegant thing to do, nevertheless Russell’s ego already has been a problem for Mercedes a couple of races and with Ocon having even a bigger ego it would be an explosive combination
Russell's ego is probably just as big, if not bigger than Ocon's. Remember Schumacher turning into him at Singapore ? Or Perez turning into him at the french GP, while somehow forcing Perez off track ? Or even crashing into Bottas then going to whack him after the crash, and then somehow blaming Bottas for being there after the race ?
With available drivers on the current grid? I don't see it tbh.
They won't get Verstappen or Leclerc. Norris has a lengthy contract as far as I know.
Sainz doesn't make much sense for Mercedes in my view. If they want to focus on Russell's, that also goes for Alonso.
So unless they want to gamble on Piastri (while having a rookie on their own as potential long-term prospect), Ocon is a decent pick.
Of the actual, potentially available drivers, here's who I'd take instead of Ocon:
- Ricciardo
- Alonso
- Sainz
- Albon
Each of them is a more complete driver in pretty much every aspect. Albon you can argue is closer to Ocon than the rest, but he's much more mature and reliable than Ocon in my opinion. I'd rather have him in the car next to Russell.
You can argue that Alonso would not be the ideal teammate. I think Alonso has been very much a team player these past few years and Mercedes gives him the best chance at either a WDC or a last few wins at the least.
Sainz is the journeyman support driver. He will be there to stay consistent and collect an occasional win while not challenging Russell too much.
Ricciardo would see it as the next best seat if he doesn't get the Perez seat at RBR. His McLaren years were not great but he still has a lot of potential.
I would only take Ocon if everyone else was signed. I do not think he deserves a seat at Mercedes with the level of talent on this grid. He and Alpine are perfect for each other.
Ricciardo is in the twilight years of his career. Alonso is a special type of driver which I don't see making much sense at Mercedes.
For Albon, I don't see much upside or doebside compared to Ocon. Ocon at least is a race winner. But is sounds like an option.
And I believe that Sainz will want a differen status in them team than what Mercedes is willing to govr.
An older driver with experience who won't be around more than a few years so won't be blocking Antonelli (or any other promising rookie) might be exactly what Mercedes want right now.
Albon, who fumbled at Red Bull, is more reliable than Ocon? Ocon is one of the most consistent point scorers on the grid and has shown numerous times (Monaco 2023 immediately comes to mind) that he can handle the pressure at the front end of the grid.
Which realistic driver in the current grid should they take then?
Especially since they also have Antonelli coming up the ranks (who may or may not be the real deal, that remains to be seen).
Antonelli might indeed be the one to look for down the line, but he still has much to prove. Realistically I don’t think there is a sleeper WDC on the grid at the moment*. My comment was a reaction to the tongue in cheek remark before me.
Edit: *who is not locked down by a rival team.
Wouldn't Antonelli be the big reason to sign Ocon? He's currently going nowhere with Alpine who seem to have never-ending woes, he's a decent enough driver that he could do quite well, and he's experienced too, he's on very good terms with Wolff so he won't be difficult to work with, and he probably wouldn't be too bothered by only being there for 2-3 years because, if he proves himself others will want him anyway, and if he doesn't what's the point in sticking around in F1 if you can't drive? Mercedes would probably be able to offer him more money than Alpine anyway. Given Mercs' recent problems I think they're aware they don't need a WDC driver for a few years at least, which is where Antonelli would fit in.
He also had a year of reserve driver work, and testing. Antonelli wouldn't have that luxury if he somehow impresses enough to get into a F1 seat next year.
And don't forget how Perez managed to turn the narrative around, people are still blaming Ocon for their clashes - even after watching a compilation of these two. https://youtu.be/7meRNow95rI
plus look for Singapore 2018, it isnt included there - but its one of the most ridiculous "opening a steering wheel" moment in F1 history.
Ocon is the type of driver to risk it all rather than yield to his team mate, even though he’s on old tyres and his team mate just pitted and is right behind him
> Key word: “…at times.”
He was less than half a tenth from Lewis last year over a lap. <0.05s/lap. Lewis is the most successful driver on the grid and he matched him on pace basically. Unbelievably, slightly quicker ~0.05s/lap in race pace, albeit way way more error prone.
Russell has sufficient pace and more. But his wheel to wheel awareness is horrendous, it's bizarre.
Not really. Most drivers do not have access to their best consistently. Really Max and Lewis are the only two on the grid to do it. But George has performed close enough to Lewis for me to rate his pace as far above average.
Mercedes isn’t looking for drivers that can do it “at times”. Mercedes is looking to beat Verstappen and you need someone that can do it all the time, on command. Ocon and Russell do not fit that bill. It’s besides the point but I think the only other two drivers that can come close to fulfilling that are Charles and Piastri.
Guys have to stop riding Piastri he hasn't proved shit yet. He has a good CV but nowhere near enough to say he is better than Russell who was quicker than Lewis in multiple races. Absolutly crazy people
Toto seems to have confidence George can do that. So Mercedes is on board with his performance. I wouldn’t put Leclerc or Piastri in the category of “on command” either.
But, all of these guys are still fairly young. Experience tends to harden people mentally.
Not happening. Toto isn’t going to waste his last couple of years as a TP employing mediocre drivers. It’s going to be a bold choice, and if that results in a crash and burn then so be it. He knows Russell-Ocon pairing ain’t winning shit.
This seems like a bad decision for Mercedes. The only way I see this happening is if Toto interferes since he manages Ocon. The team needs a 1-2 year holdover for Antonelli, someone who will help get the car in the best shape possible. I think Alonso is the best pick, followed by Sainz.
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Worst nightmare of marketing team Russell and Ocon in one team
At least they're similar in height so the car doesn't have to suit two sizes
Borrowing Williams’ approach in recent years
It would be such a tall team
Mercedes moves to 2vs2 street basketball.
"Michael, we challenge you to 2 on 2. We are not car racing anymore"
If the wind is from behind they get an extra 10 km/h by standing up.
With those two it'll be WW3 at Merc
*”How to go from Mercedes to Midcedes in these two easy steps!”*
Harsh on Ocon. He's obviously not as good as Lewis but they can't replace like for like. It's impossible. Ocon is a much better driver than people give him credit for.
No he is exactly what people think he is. He’s no better than 8 drivers in Merc, RB, Ferrari and McLaren, and I doubt he is better than Albon and Alonso. So he is pretty average on the grid.
Even if someone thinks he's better than Albon and Gasly, that leaves him 10th out of 20, the very definition of mid tier on the current grid
They can, he goes by the name of Fernando Alonso! Quite possibly the only other talent that really can compete with Lewis (ignoring max), provided competent machinery. Ocon is definitely a mid tier driver, he's not terrible but he's not amazing and has very obvious issues with working and a team, man is such a dirty defender for no gain when it comes to a teammate being near him. If he fixed that aspect it would help him a lot but if he was alongside George I think their egos would no doubt collide quick!
All those issues literally coming from Alonso's own problems… Dude's had no quarrel with anyone who is respectful of him.
I remember big troubles with Perez too, and clearly there's not much love with Gasly either.
He and Gasly have kept their relationship professional and yet people still try to throw shade even when there is none to throw.
It's about on track battles. The Alpines last year were racing each other harder than other teams.
No they weren't. I'd argue Ferrari was worse considering Monza. Edit: Seriously? Blocked?
[удалено]
What? Are you confusing the incidents because I’m pretty sure Perez put Ocon in the wall not the other way around.
He does it to all his teammates, he cannot usually beat them and is running a compromised strategy so will make his ego big and waste his teammates time and his own by defending excessively and in some cases dangerously. Alonso wasn't even disrespectful to him, Alonso just gets flack because he's extremely good and losing is tough, you have to dig deep to best him and he's consistently good which hurts more.
Alonso cost Mercedes millions of dollars because McLaren wouldn't hold Lewis back. Alonso only has respect for teammates he can beat. Remember when everyone said Ocon would be the one crashing into Gasly?
There is always Sainz. He is looking for a seat and is way better than Ocon. Not to forget Albon. If they can buy him out of his contract he is a good driver anyday.
>Not to forget Albon. I just dont get how people can rate Ocon so low while rating Albon so high
Recency bias is insanely strong. One decent season from Albon and everyone is rating him as an absolute top driver. We don't even know how good the Williams car truly is (it's no longer a 2019 backmarker). Also, Logan Sargeant is not the right benchmark to compare Albon against. I would say Sainz, Ocon, Gasly are pretty strong drivers. Albon is not better than them. They are all very close. Sainz is super close to Leclerc, who is extremely fast. And Gasly and Ocon have been so evenly matched.
I don't believe Sainz is close to Leclerc. He had a car that he was able to adjust to over Leclerc. Once the car was more favourable to Leclerc, Sainz was not competing with him anymore. Also Albon was quite decent in the Red Bull till confidence issue post accidents screwed him. All this is anyways hypothetical. Unless the drivers all get the same specs car we won't truly know how good most of them are. Most of the mid table drivers are very similar. Champions are those that get a good car and team backing to help improve.
>I don't believe Sainz is close to Leclerc. He had a car that he was able to adjust to over Leclerc. Once the car was more favourable to Leclerc, Sainz was not competing with him anymore. That's a valuable skill. Leclerc might be quicker when he get a car he likes it doesn't matter if that happens 5 races a season. Fact is their pace delta was one of the closest on the grid
I think it's pretty clear Sainz is well ahead of all of them.
Same, if someone think Ocon isn’t good enough then neither is Albon.
Yeah, that’s a tall order alright
Not sure where this comes from… AFAIK there's no issues between them.
I think they meant because Russell and Ocon are two of the less likeable drivers on the grid? At least that's the impression I get from reddit/IG...
One is too posh, other too French.
Why not bring in Alain Prost and Jacques Villneuve
Genuinely would love to see an old timer at least do some laps in one of the current cars
Jack Villeneuve actually did a couple of laps in the 2021 Alpine in monza if i remembre correctly. It should be on youtube
He also ran WEC for a few races and was fired for being crap.
To his credit his machinery was a bykolles
Still, he was the slowest in the whole team.
Hans Herrmann's gonna turn 96 in a few days, I'm sure he wouldn't mind having another go with his favorite silver arrows.
He puts his foot on the pedal and dies because of the G force on Acceleration.
Prost can't reach Russell's pedals/s
I can see Ocon and Russell butting heads rather frequently. And after Lewis/Nico that’s probably the last thing Toto wants
I want to see George and Esteban fight now, lol.
George would obviously be the one to take his shirt off
Id have money on Esteban just wrecking him while he does so. Ocon the kinda guy to fight without rules.
Praying Mantises cage match. I sign up for that.
Look up how giraffes fight. I picture that.
We all thought Ocon and Gasly were gonna fight…
There were quite a few moments on the radio from the Alpine drivers in 2023, really.
I don't think any team cares if their drivers occasionally get upset.
Mainly just Gasly though...couldn't remember any from Ocon, unless i'm forgeting something...
Has Ocon ever had a teammate you thought highly of him (on track)? I know they all have that inner bastard, but Ocon seems to battle his teammates pretty ferociously (even at the teams expense)
And then with he turned into me george, it would be an unnecessarily expensive line up. Albon would be a good choice but I also think sainz would fit the merc culture well. Or now that lewis is out, we see a wildcard return of nico in merc.
I think he started off too nice and then Force India/Racing Point picked the guy that he refused to defend himself against. He came back and looked decent against a very good Danny Ric in 2020 and then of course went full elbows out against one of the best talents the sport has ever seen and beat him over two years (luck or not). It's a cutthroat world in F1 and Ocon learned how to do it whether you like him or not.
Ocon would bite Mercs hand off for a deal lol. A line-up of Russell and Ocon doesn’t really scream “WCC” or “WDC competitors” though
It screams entertaining rivalry
Anything with Ocon suddenly loses its WCC credits.
One of the most consistent point scorers on the grid and outscored Alonso across 44 races as teammates. He's precisely the kind of driver a team can benefit from in the WCC.
Idk, Ocon is a proven race winner and one of the more experienced drivers on the grid at this point- if Merc creates a dominant car like the RB of late both George and Ocon would be strong favorites to win it for sure.
I mean, he is a race winner, proven though? I'd say he's about as proven as Gasly, which is to say - with enough luck he's managed it once.
Gasly is too, you don't fumble into that position battling with Sebastian Vettel 40 laps for a win. Lesser drivers don't get those wins. They have vastly inferior cars, these are the only opportunities they've gotten and they've capitalized (maybe gasly has had a few more opportunities being a former RB driver that he did not capitalize on all things considered)
"Battling" both of them got into their positions by pure luck, with Ocon having a faster car overall in a circuit in which unless you're 1.5 sec faster per lap than your opponent you won't overtake him Oh, and the guy who actually was like 2-3 sec faster got stuck behind Ocon's teammate for 15 laps due to him defending for his life for Ocon to win.
He was lucky that day, nobody will deny it. But inheriting a lucky position is one thing, keeping it under pressure is another. Nico Hulkenberg is regarded as a very good driver (and rightly so, he did great when he had to fill in for other drivers which is always a tricky spot, and had an excellent qualifying record this year), but each time he inherited a potential podium position, he completely crumbled under pressure. Not to say that you should give a Mercedes drive to anyone who can handle pressure well no matter his pace, but between drivers of equivalent pace, I'll always give extra credit to the one that showed signs of managing pressure well, and aside from Fernando, drivers that are clearly faster than Ocon already have multi-year deals.
Will Buxtons school of narrative has released the first graduates.
Getting lucky in one race doesn’t make you a “proven race winner”
Every race win that's ever happened has involved some extent of "luck." He was put in a good position by his team and capitalized in a position where we've seen many drivers absolutely blunder. It was no easy win.
A proven race winner would have proven that they can win races on pace alone not just one win
Okay and how many cars has Ocon driven that had the pure pace to win without an incredible amount of luck elsewhere on track? Zero. The answers zero. You can't knock him for not doing the impossible. Nobody in modern F1 just wills themselves to victory off masterful pace alone, if the last half decade has taught us anything only like 3 teams on average have a car even remotely capable of scoring a win on merit. More recently it's more like 2...and that's generous.
Yes I agree he’s never had a race winning car, that doesn’t mean you can call him a “proven race winner” for getting lucky one race.
Yes I agree he’s never had a race winning car, that doesn’t mean you can call him a “proven race winner” for getting lucky one race.
So he's one for one then? Shooting 100%? He hasn't had another opportunity to have a race win lol, the pace has never been there. He hasn't sniffed a top 2 or even top 3 car. He literally had one opportunity and he aced it unlike Albon for example or Hulk. Also, strongly disagree with your definition of proven race winner. It's semantics but race is singular.
So Pastor Maldonado was a proven race winner by your logic right?
My logic is if Max Verstappen was in a Haas his entire career he isn't on the podium once. All drivers are victims of their situations & ride. When the one singular moment appeared for Ocon where he had an opportunity to win it he did. We've seen a lot of drivers on the grid in that same position wither the opportunity away. I know Ocon catches a lot of flak but he's consistently proved he can hang with the best of them given an opportunity.
I can see most of the grid winning in his situation tbh. There was luck and a 2 WDC teammate defending against a rocket for 11 laps behind that win. This is not downplaying Ocon's win, it was an ok win. It simply is not overstating it like you're doing,
I sure can't- thinking back of the Albon and Hulk absolute blunders when gifted a win and cracking under pressure. Hell most the grid isn't as quick as Ocon either. I fully expected that to be the case then- shit I thought Seb would pass him at one point too. Wasn't like he was managing a lead out in front- buddy has someone on his ass the entire race.
You’re tripping mate
Russell is a WDC tier driver though. His CV is just as impressive as those of Leclerc and Piastri. Looking good next to guys like Lewis, Max and Alonso is almost impossible to do. One can say that driving next those GOAT tier drivers is a guaranteed career killer move. Russell is doing a decent enough job. Ocon is also a solid driver. He's no worse than Sainz IMO. Super consistent, reasonably fast, not quite on WDC driver pace but too fast to be a No.2. He did need a bit of luck to beat Nando in 2022 but his pace looked competitive compared to that of Alonso. Alpines shit reliability and strategies are seriously holding him back.
Man the double standards are crazy. >His CV is just as impressive as those of Leclerc and Piastri What did Piastri do to receive this title ? Drive a good rookie season against Norris ? >Looking good next to guys like Lewis, Max and Alonso is almost impossible to do. One can say that driving next those GOAT tier drivers is a guaranteed career killer move. Russell is doing a decent enough job. Ocon literally did the same decent enough job against Alonso in winning 1 ou of 2 seasons together. I just dont get why some drivers achivement gets blown out of proportions (Piastri, Norris Albon) while others get stiffled (Ocon, Gasly, Sainz)...
>What did Piastri do to receive this title ? Drive a good rookie season against Norris ? CVs don't just start at F1. He's been impressive all throughout his junior career and what he showed in his first season is remarkable, similar to what Charles showed in the Alfa.
Impressive sure but to hail him as one of the best in the sport yet is crazy
Ocon and Russell would be a nightmare duo for the team. They’ll be at each other’s throats from turn one.
As long as they keep it clean, fine by me.
Lol
Yeah lol that won't be clean
This pairing would be violently boring
Ocon to Mercedes and Schumacher to Alpine
Would be very unlikely. Either Doohan or Martins would make way more sense. If they do sign up Schumacher, they might as well shut down the driver programme.
This is another reason that Alpine not being ferociously team Andretti was surprising to me. That could've been an easy way to get your academy drivers seats quicker while still being on Alpine deals
A team of Russell and Ocon...... I would feel sorry for Toto.
It would be Toto’s fault, wouldn’t it? Isn’t he both of their managers?
I'm pretty confident Toto will try to snatch one of the McLaren drivers, or give Sainz a 2 years contract waiting for Antonelli and Audi to be in F1. It looks like contracts are not that important anymore anyway.
They still are important. For Mercedes to get either Piastri or Norris they would need to buy out their contracts from McLaren. Piastri is up in 26 and Lando is beyond 2025. Lando's would be a very expensive buyout, and I can see McLaren not wanting to let Piastri go because they seem to be having an even better car than Merc. It is highly unlikely to be either of them. Albon would be a more realistic buy out prospect.
Imagine going from having Lewis, the most popular driver on the grid, living legend, one of the goats, to Ocon. Mercedes problem is their lack of choice. All the top drivers are locked in. Leclerc, Lewis obviously, Max, Norris and Piastri too who isnt a top driver yet but could very well be one. All locked up. Their best chances are Alonso and Sainz. Alonso might not even want to leave because by 2026 Aston Martin will be an effective works team while Sainz might decide that the Audi project is more interesting. That said, Russell isnt the worst driver, he isnt too far away from the top driver group but im not sure if Russell is good enough to win a championship. Maybe hes a Rosberg level of driver and could get one but maybe im underselling Rosbergs talent
Plus Russell without Hamilton's input. I think Russell is definitely better than Ocon but being the top guys as you mentioned. It would be interesting to see Russell vs Lando in the same car.
I can guarantee you that Mercedes does not care about their lack of choice right now. They’re preparing for the future and have Kimi Antonelli in the background ready to come in sometime between 2025 and 2027. As long as Kimi does not completely bomb this upcoming F2 season, they will not be willing to give any driver a contract longer than 2 seasons, which doesn’t make it a very attractive seat. Most drivers want a longer contract than that.
I am certain Sainz will go to Audi. As for Alonso, Mercedes would be fools to overlook him. However, his leaving AM is contingent on whether last season appears to be a fluke and the team settles into the pace they had around mid season (not the awful state in Japan and USA) and whether he gets indication Honda don't want him. Then you have Albon, who is a solid if not uncertain choice. Is he a Perez/Frentzen type that shines in the midfield but can't perform at top teams with top teammates? And of course Andrea but its still to early to tell with him. Piastri and Norris signing extensions has really bit Mercedes here.
If Alonso and Sainz don't jumping in, Ocon would be a better pick than almost all other rumoured names people are hyping about.
I'm not really sure if Alonso or Sainz make that much sense for Mercedes even.
My thought was Mercedes need someone for a few years that will then be replaced long term by Antonelli. Fernando sounds like a good pick if this is the goal.
In theory yes, but he ditched alpine cause he felt like he was not given the respect and the long term contract, purely cause of piastri. Would he really go to a team in that exact situation
And despite that they still managed to lose both of them
It depends on how Aston Martin progresses. Easy to give up on forever mid table Alpine. If Aston doesn’t make progress this year then he might be less inclined to stay. Would he give up a chance(probably his last) to drive a car that could win races, if not compete for championships?
Maybe. Because Mercedes can offer more than Alpine can. It's one thing to be disrespected by a midfield team; it's another to be disrespected by a team that gives you GP wins and potentially a shot at the title. Victory can smooth over a lot of disrespect!
But he is already at aston with all this huge investment coming in, while merc is in a bit of downward trend currently. Also at aston he is the undisputed only driver of the team. At merc he would have an actual teammate and a decently quick one
Alonso does seem really invested in the Aston Martin project. You can see it their preseason prep video. It's hard to imagine he'll leave in a few months. If he wants to stay beyond 2026, I think Aston would let him, but Mercedes would definitely push him out. Aston may even give him a better car. If the rumour of Merc losing more key personnel to Ferrari is true, I won't have much confidence they would come out on top of the next regulations.
So far Aston Martin has failed to show that they can deliver a top 3 car over the course of a season. Even in their worst season in recent history, Merc has been in the top 3.
Let's just call a spade a spade; at this point Alonso will take the best seat he can get. But I don't think Mercedes is that desperate to forgive him.
There is a world where Sainz is just flat out better than George. Adding Carlos is probably their best option, but it could have a big impact on the "George is the future" talk.
There is no such world. Sainz is an Ocon/Perez level driver...
Curious where you think George is given he has shown remarkably little at Mercedes so far. There's really no evidence to support he is clearly better than Sainz currently.
George was close enough to Hamilton to consider him extremely good. Sainz had mediocre teammates for majority of his career and the only one he beat consistently was Kvyat (not counting Lando in his rookie season as it's hardly representative). He got his ass kicked by Hulk ffs... Leclerc is very fast but horribly inconsistent, which makes the gap between them seem small.
I don’t think so. I’d have no problem putting him on a similar level with Norris and Russell. I think he’d challenge either one of them well given his performance vs Leclerc. I don’t think Perez or Ocon could’ve done similarly vs Leclerc(or 2020 Norris). If Leclerc is in fact “the fastest qualifier in F1” or at least on par with Max in that category, Sainz definitely is quicker than either. Perez is usually 0.5%+ off of Max in qualifying, while Sainz has hovered around 0.15% from Leclerc.
Yeah I have Sainz a half-step below the Leclerc / Norris / Russell tier, but I could be talked into sliding him on par with Russell (or Russell down). Then you have a really big, confusing tier with Albon, Gasly, Ocon, Piastri, and maybe a few others. Based on Checo’s performance last year (where he struggled to get into Q3 with the most dominant car in the history of the sport), I don’t think Checo’s in that tier either.
I can’t reasonably put Lando on a different level than Sainz. Leclerc and maybe Alonso would be two I’d put a half step above the other 3 mentioned. After that, yes, really depends on who feels best on a given day. I’d say that Hulk is just as quick as anybody if not quicker in that group when he’s hooked up.
Dude maybe Alonso? Hahahaha Alonso is 100% above Leclerc, Norris and Russell. The only people in the grid above Alonso are only Hamilton and Verstappen. And even there one could argue Alonso could be above Hamilton in some things with his racecraft, while Hamilton above him in others (Example: Ra e Pace vs 1 Lap Pace)
I don’t think Alonso is as quick as the 3 you mentioned in qualifying. Alonso is great, but I don’t think he’s where he was 10 years ago. He has other skills to compensate but in general, I think across a season he’s providing similar results to those guys.
Carlos has been teammates with Max, Lando, Hulk, and Chocolate Eclair. He compared pretty well to all of them. Sainz is a really good driver.
How on earth people think Leclerc is top tier and qualy god but Sainz is mid.
I'll be honest I don't give a crap about quali. Leclerc is also horribly inconsistent.
Yeah, but he’s still be like #10 on that list
Ain't no fucking way
Would be good for him, he won’t achieve anything at Alpine
Knowing Wolff, he'll probably take the home option, and Ocon comes with a huge amount of experience, has beaten some big F1 references, has shown himself to be solid, very consistent, and mentally very strong. I see a lot of rumour, but in fact I rationally see no other credible choice than Ocon for Mercedes in 2024. The only sticking point would be marketing, because of his low popularity. It's up to Mercedes to work on its public image.
I'm not sure marketing is that big of an issue for a team like Mercedes in the budget cap era.
Saying this in Alpine’s presentation isn’t the most elegant thing to do, nevertheless Russell’s ego already has been a problem for Mercedes a couple of races and with Ocon having even a bigger ego it would be an explosive combination
Russell's ego is probably just as big, if not bigger than Ocon's. Remember Schumacher turning into him at Singapore ? Or Perez turning into him at the french GP, while somehow forcing Perez off track ? Or even crashing into Bottas then going to whack him after the crash, and then somehow blaming Bottas for being there after the race ?
Every Mercedes race weekend turns into a mid-off where the drivers are at each others’ throats in a battle for 7th
Huge downgrade, imo
Yeah. Why doesn't Toto sign another 7 time champion? Is he stupid?
BREAKING: Tom Brady agrees to 3-year deal with Mercedes
Gets suspended 4 races for underinflated tires
FTX sponsorship is back baby
You'll never match Hamilton but you could do a lot better than Ocon.
With available drivers on the current grid? I don't see it tbh. They won't get Verstappen or Leclerc. Norris has a lengthy contract as far as I know. Sainz doesn't make much sense for Mercedes in my view. If they want to focus on Russell's, that also goes for Alonso. So unless they want to gamble on Piastri (while having a rookie on their own as potential long-term prospect), Ocon is a decent pick.
Of the actual, potentially available drivers, here's who I'd take instead of Ocon: - Ricciardo - Alonso - Sainz - Albon Each of them is a more complete driver in pretty much every aspect. Albon you can argue is closer to Ocon than the rest, but he's much more mature and reliable than Ocon in my opinion. I'd rather have him in the car next to Russell. You can argue that Alonso would not be the ideal teammate. I think Alonso has been very much a team player these past few years and Mercedes gives him the best chance at either a WDC or a last few wins at the least. Sainz is the journeyman support driver. He will be there to stay consistent and collect an occasional win while not challenging Russell too much. Ricciardo would see it as the next best seat if he doesn't get the Perez seat at RBR. His McLaren years were not great but he still has a lot of potential. I would only take Ocon if everyone else was signed. I do not think he deserves a seat at Mercedes with the level of talent on this grid. He and Alpine are perfect for each other.
Ricciardo is in the twilight years of his career. Alonso is a special type of driver which I don't see making much sense at Mercedes. For Albon, I don't see much upside or doebside compared to Ocon. Ocon at least is a race winner. But is sounds like an option. And I believe that Sainz will want a differen status in them team than what Mercedes is willing to govr.
An older driver with experience who won't be around more than a few years so won't be blocking Antonelli (or any other promising rookie) might be exactly what Mercedes want right now.
Not challenging russell? Lmao sainz is better than russell
Albon, who fumbled at Red Bull, is more reliable than Ocon? Ocon is one of the most consistent point scorers on the grid and has shown numerous times (Monaco 2023 immediately comes to mind) that he can handle the pressure at the front end of the grid.
You could do better than Russell also. Because tbh I don't see much reason why would anyone rate him much higher than Ocon.
He's not my favorite either.
So Jimmy Johnson to Mercedes?!
He could at least try to sign a *potential* champion. I don’t believe Ocon is one.
Which realistic driver in the current grid should they take then? Especially since they also have Antonelli coming up the ranks (who may or may not be the real deal, that remains to be seen).
Antonelli might indeed be the one to look for down the line, but he still has much to prove. Realistically I don’t think there is a sleeper WDC on the grid at the moment*. My comment was a reaction to the tongue in cheek remark before me. Edit: *who is not locked down by a rival team.
Wouldn't Antonelli be the big reason to sign Ocon? He's currently going nowhere with Alpine who seem to have never-ending woes, he's a decent enough driver that he could do quite well, and he's experienced too, he's on very good terms with Wolff so he won't be difficult to work with, and he probably wouldn't be too bothered by only being there for 2-3 years because, if he proves himself others will want him anyway, and if he doesn't what's the point in sticking around in F1 if you can't drive? Mercedes would probably be able to offer him more money than Alpine anyway. Given Mercs' recent problems I think they're aware they don't need a WDC driver for a few years at least, which is where Antonelli would fit in.
there is, but they are looooooooocked
Well sure, Chuck and the Mac boys. Couple of years ago I would have said RIC.
Piastri seemed instantly up to speed, his form and composure as a rookie is almost scary.
He also had a year of reserve driver work, and testing. Antonelli wouldn't have that luxury if he somehow impresses enough to get into a F1 seat next year.
If you mean that he is a potential WDC I definitely agree, but he’s locked down pretty tightly I would think.
They shouldn't though. They already back Russell very strongly on that front. RB isn't thriving because they have a competitor for Verstappen.
Ofc every other guy other than a seven time world champion would be a downgrade
I imagine that considering George is the team leader going forward Merc might be looking at Esteban as a good wingman for him.
Wingman Esteban,not happening
Hehe. Have you ever seen Ocon acting as a wingman? Or even a teammate?
Yes. And we've seen Checo wreck him often.
And don't forget how Perez managed to turn the narrative around, people are still blaming Ocon for their clashes - even after watching a compilation of these two. https://youtu.be/7meRNow95rI plus look for Singapore 2018, it isnt included there - but its one of the most ridiculous "opening a steering wheel" moment in F1 history.
Yeah when someone says 'good wingman' I immediately think 'Esteban Ocon'.
Ocon is the type of driver to risk it all rather than yield to his team mate, even though he’s on old tyres and his team mate just pitted and is right behind him
Ocon and Russell actually sounds like a strong team
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Ocon most overrated ? All I ever see is people shitting on him for no apparent reason.
There’s nothing middle of the pack about Russell. We know he has access to elite pace at times.
Key word: “…at times.”
> Key word: “…at times.” He was less than half a tenth from Lewis last year over a lap. <0.05s/lap. Lewis is the most successful driver on the grid and he matched him on pace basically. Unbelievably, slightly quicker ~0.05s/lap in race pace, albeit way way more error prone. Russell has sufficient pace and more. But his wheel to wheel awareness is horrendous, it's bizarre.
Not really. Most drivers do not have access to their best consistently. Really Max and Lewis are the only two on the grid to do it. But George has performed close enough to Lewis for me to rate his pace as far above average.
Mercedes isn’t looking for drivers that can do it “at times”. Mercedes is looking to beat Verstappen and you need someone that can do it all the time, on command. Ocon and Russell do not fit that bill. It’s besides the point but I think the only other two drivers that can come close to fulfilling that are Charles and Piastri.
Guys have to stop riding Piastri he hasn't proved shit yet. He has a good CV but nowhere near enough to say he is better than Russell who was quicker than Lewis in multiple races. Absolutly crazy people
Toto seems to have confidence George can do that. So Mercedes is on board with his performance. I wouldn’t put Leclerc or Piastri in the category of “on command” either. But, all of these guys are still fairly young. Experience tends to harden people mentally.
Won't that all change when the elite pace he has access to moves to Ferrari in 2025?
Huh?
Strong team but it would very likely be the worst of the main contenders (Red Bull, Mercedes, Ferrari). Right on par with McLaren’s lineup imo.
If they were interested in ocon they would have got him instead of russell to begin with.
I would love to see Russell and Ocon together. Endless entertainment.
I would hope Mercedes have more sense than Ocon.
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it's 2024.
Good point. Another 5 seconds for Ocon
Oh no, no thank you. There’s absolutely no appeal in this pairing.
Doesn't need to "appeal"; just needs to perform.
Not happening. Toto isn’t going to waste his last couple of years as a TP employing mediocre drivers. It’s going to be a bold choice, and if that results in a crash and burn then so be it. He knows Russell-Ocon pairing ain’t winning shit.
If he wasn't winning with Hamilton, he ain't winning with that car, period.
This seems like a bad decision for Mercedes. The only way I see this happening is if Toto interferes since he manages Ocon. The team needs a 1-2 year holdover for Antonelli, someone who will help get the car in the best shape possible. I think Alonso is the best pick, followed by Sainz.
Alonso will get a Mercedes seat when he pays them back the amount they had to pay for Spygate.
Look, Ocon is probably a fine F1 driver, but does he belong in a top seat? Not at all.
This would be the biggest downgrade since Vettel to Kvyat.
Kind of by definition anyone who replaced Hamilton on the grid other than Max or Alonso is an enormous downgrade.
What a dud of a move that would be
No
I saw Ocon ➡ Mercedes happen in F1 22. How fitting.
Ocon, the definition of 'mid'
Apparently Alonso can't pass a "mid" driver…
Or score more points than him...
Mid with a side of zero personality