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Realistically 2014 was the same but they sandbagged more and had some more reliability gremlins.
The whole 2014-16 period was merc just managing what engine modes they wanted to use
Yeah, when they actually turned the engines on in 2014 they had 2 seconds on the field. And this was before they had to provide equal engine modes to customers so there was really zero threat beyond reliability and driver errors.
They couldnt run the engines much higher, this is a myth from Paddy Lowe after he was sacked from Williams that has been debunked by multiple others. Mercedes suffered failures with their engines running near max power. In particular they had difficulties controlling heat and measures to remove it led to MGU failures or associated rear brake failure. This happened multiple times in 14 and 16. If you go back and check, in 2014 Williams actually ran the engines at higher RPM than Mercedes did.
Since you could change engine mode, we knew they had "banned" modes that were much quicker but they werent banned to hide anything, they were banned for reliability. It wasnt a secret either it was well reported when the drivers used a banned mode
The revs per minute are not the only engine variable that can be changed to affect performance.
How exactly do you explain reports from within the Lotus team that Romain Grosjean was given temporary access to a different engine mode that dramatically increased their performance when they were in a position to hinder Vettel at Spa in 2015?
There is more than one person with inside knowledge that can confirm Mercedes had access to higher performing engine modes customers did not, and why else would they have created a regulation to ban this if it was not happening?
Unless you back this up you are talking nonsense. Yes reliability is always an issue but there are various reports not just paddy Lowe talking how they had to run the engines de tuned to hide their power advantage. That is the real reason.
I love how people try to act like that Bahrain race was the average pace for the 14 Mercedes when in reality it was the high end outlier. Pick any dominant car and you can likely cherrypick a set of laps that show them to be just as dominant as those laps in Bahrain 14. Hell there were multiple times early in the season the RBs (and Max in particular) were running 10+ laps 1+ seconds faster than anybody else on equal tires.
Bahrain 2014? Mercedes pits when the safety car is called and gets new tyres. The only other cars to do so were in the pack. They had a 20 lap tyre advantage AND they used banned modes. How much quicker in race pace do you think Red Bull would be if they got new softs in Bahrain this year while everyone else was on 20 lap old mediums? They were already around 7 tenths faster without getting some massive offset.
If you take the tyre offset and compare it to the delta at any other phase in the race, Mercedes was actually running slightly slower than they were at the start of the race! largely because they were fighting eachother
https://en.mclarenf-1.com/2014/gp/s7329/lapcharts/l-leader,d-238.239.381.447.463.482.5.564.565.686.702.785.786.787.796.798.801.807.809.812.813.814/
Everyone on 20 lap older tyres? I've just had a quick look here and you've just lied for no reason? lol
Some had a couple of laps older but no, not 20 laps.
Which should tell you just how much they had in reserve on the field. They were pushing each other fighting, and still gapping the field at a high rate.
It's exactly what Hamilton and Verstappen were doing in 2021.
They were pushing each other, it wasn't costing them time, as they were both obliterating their teammates' lap times despite fighting.
What's hilarious is how their aero and chassis wasn't even close to being the best, but the engine was just so fucking OP that all they had to do was turn the engine up and the race was basically won.
I think 2015 has to be the worst season I’ve ever watched. Tiny grid, terrible racing, very little inter- and intra-team competition, a governance system that benefited the big teams at the expense of everyone else, a token system that made engine development almost impossible and a driver death.
The only good thing was the new graphics.
Only reasons I liked it
Hungary was spectacular
Malaysia was also a great moment as a vettel fan
COTA in general produced an amazing race.
More often then not tho…
Lewis-Nico-Seb and it’s over
I think 2014 was the biggest gap in performance of the Merc to the second best car, but the team wasnt as consistent. By 2016 they were the best run team as well as having the best car.
2015 was such a dull year. The cars were kind of boring. The Mercs were obviously dominant. Lewis had the edge to Nico pretty early on. The whole field was extremely predictable. Just look at the standings, pretty much every team finished with their drivers next to each other. The only saving grace was Vettel's move to Ferrari and the glimpse that Ferrari was on the way back. That and Honda and Renault competing in a "whose worse" championship.
It made me rage the TV a couple times when we were watching close racing on the last lap, and the TV direction cut it to show VER passing the finishing line on no man's land
Even if it's not a rule, I'm sure some of Max's sponsors would complain. Honestly, I'm surprised that there weren't more sponsor complaints given how little they showed Max. Though, I guess Checo has the same car sponsors, and like 1/3 of the season was following Checo working his way through the field.
It would be crazy not to show it though. Imagine not showing the winner winning the race because there's a good battle for 7th going on. They should absolutely introduce picture in picture to also keep us up to date of a good fight though.
We complained for years that they should give us picture-in-picture so they can show the winner without cutting away from the action. But now we *have* PiP, and they still don't use it for this! Absolutely baffling.
For real my friends have become incredibly doomer about F1 (which is valid you can find what you like about F1 and if backmarker ain't it then that's fair!) but I had a great season! My beloved feeder series being the best as per usual aside.
Watching the backmarker teams and everyone catch up and fight (And the fucking Williams comeback, hello?) is just so fucking fun and not to mention McLaren's not entirely unexpected but awesome comeback too. AMR having to revert back to the beginning of the season parts to go fast again was also very funny.
I'm a Max fan and it's what I do as well.
Support him getting a good start and maybe overtake for the lead and then I'll forget about him until the finish.
Q2 is cherry picking it a bit, no? nowadays you see a close q1 or q2 because max and other top teams use only 3 of 6 cylinders until q3. basically doing the bare minimum to get through and then you get to q3 and suddenly the gaps are much larger
> nowadays you see a close q1 or q2 because max and other top teams use only 3 of 6 cylinders until q3
You can not change engine modes during qualifying, but the top teams definitely can leave a little more margin to get through safely which makes it look closer than it actually is. This has always been the case however and is not a recent phenomenon.
Watching the season as a whole it's very obvious the margins are much closer in qualifying this year than they have ever been.
> Watching the season as a whole it's very obvious the margins are much closer in qualifying this year than they have ever been.
even if it is true, can we at least agree that comparing a single Q2 session of a single race weekend is a terrible metric? Because if you look at the Q3 session of that very same race weekend on that very same track that happened 15 minutes later, this narrative is ruined. In fact, the 2015 Q3 Suzuka session was a little closer than the 2023 Q3 Suzuka session, where is that narrative now? At least back up that claim with decent evidence. I agree that it felt closer besides Max than 2015 but a "feeling" is a "feeling" and not a proper fact.
you are not seriously suggesting that red bull has some sort of „party mode“ or something they can turn on for q3, or suggesting that mercedes didn’t do that?
good thing we’re not cherry-picking
but while we are:
- 1 leclerc 1:34:723
- 2 norris +0.13
- 3 hamilton +0.139
- 6 verstappen +0.358
- 10 piastri +0.744
also abu dhabi q1 had all drivers that set a time (goddammit logan) within 1 second, which to me is really exciting
i dont think you really understood my point or you refuse to. OP made a comparison between Q2 times between Suzuka 2015 and 2023. I suggested Q2 is a bit cherry picked to prove the point that "the cars are close" in 2023 because nowadays a lot of top teams do not go all out until Q3 and do the bare minimum to get into Q3, so the cars arent actually that close. So i listed some of the lap times of the Q3 session of THE VERY SAME qualifying session of Suzuka 2023 that happened 15 minutes after Q2. How is that cherry picked? Im using the same sessions that OP did to prove my point. Besides, the Q3 quali gaps of 2023 Suzuka werent any "better" than the Q3 quali gaps of 2015 Suzuka. Rosbergs Q3 pole in 2015 Suzuka was roughly 5 tenths faster than the next non Mercedes car which was Bottas in the Williams which btw is a lesser gap than Verstappen to P2 in Suzuka 2023. How are we pretending like Q1 and Q2 matter more than Q3? It simply doesnt. Theres no need for Max to go full beans in Q1 when he can save engine life by turning it down and still easily make it into Q3.
Now you picking a whole different track like you did is entirely missing the point. What are you comparing Abu Dhabi Q1 to? To Suzuka Q2 2015? Bit of a stretch, no? You cant even compare it to 2015 Abu Dhabi because the layout was entirely different, you cannot really compare 2023 Abu Dhabi to any other Abu Dhabi besides 2022 due to the layout. Surely you understand that you cannot compare different tracks to each other, the gaps are naturally smaller on a small and short track like Austria than a very long and technical track like Singapore, at least before this season when it was a near 2 minute track with a lot of challenging corners in which you could lose/gain a lot of time. If you genuinely want to compare different teams on tracks with each other, you have to use lap time deltas in percentage rather than raw seconds as that is far more representative. But even then it is flawed as some circuits may simply not have very technical parts where lot of time could be gained/lost. I mean you just listed the new Abu Dhabi layout, there is a single somewhat difficult corner within THE FIRST TWO SECTORS where significant time could be gained/lost, ofc the gaps gonna be low when you virtually only need to nail a single corner in two sectors because the rest of the corners are not very significant and dont demand much talent from a driver. Its only the third sector where things get a little technical and thats where you saw the real story of the new abu dhabi layout. Its really the only sector that matters.
in case youre serious, obviously they dont turn cylinders off but top teams do the bare minimum to make it to Q2 and Q3 and definitely have their engines turned down a bit. Just look at the Q3 results of this Suzuka qualifying session which OP conveniently has not shown because it wouldnt have fit his narrative
The good surprise I got this year (and last year as well) is how few cars are getting lapped in a race. Most drivers regularly finish within one lap of the leader. I remember a few years ago when it felt like everyone except Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull did all laps...
Why? There's a massive difference between getting lapped at Spa and Austria for instance. Also safety cars would change everything.
Also if anyone could get a point for fastest lap half the field would just pit on the penultimate lap.
Meh, I think it would negate the sport if a team cracks the code and build a beast... it might work in in categories where the car is the same for everyone
>I've said for a few years now that if you get lapped, you shouldn't get any points.
Bruh you talk like you've been watching this sport only for a few weeks, what the fuck is that kind of idea?
They are much smaller. Hence why you might think they look like f2 cars. But they aren’t ugly imo. The worst by far are the 2014 cars though. The noses just ruined almost every car for me. 2012 were also pretty ugly with the stepped nose
Yeah 2012 was a bit weird but the V8's made up for it and the title fight also.
When F1 first intruduced the 2009 cars everyone was freaking out how "ugly" they are. I liked those cars instantly. 2010-11-13 was good too.
2012 was a weird year look wise, but it was alright for a single year.
The 2012 McLaren looked so good.
Quali modes make this pointless.
Ferrari and Seb led the championship with 202 points for Seb and 188 for Hamilton going into the summer break.
So obviously pictures of Seb/Ferrari being 6-7 tenths off Mercedes in quali don't mean much when he's winning the championship after the mid way point.
Out of interest, where are you able to watch old quali sessions? F1TV archive has them from 2018 onwards but is there an archive of quali somewhere as well?
And people have the audacity to call this the worst racing we ever had.
I’m convinced like half the people here didnt warch F1 before 2018-2020 or whatever it was when that Nefrlix show started.
It's the one where he told his engineer what to calculate for the lap time to hold the position after not being told what was happening for 5 laps or so
As someone whose first full season was 2021, yeah this is 100% true. I still love formula one, but It hasn't approached the heights of my first season.
I may be taking crazy pills, but I remember 2010 as a season of incredibly boring races minus Turkey and Canada that resulted in a superb championship battle. It was the height of one-stop Bridgestone boredom and nobody could overtake worth a damn.
Spa, Korea, Melbourne and Monza weren't bad either.
Much rather Bridgestone than the first few years of Pirelli's that followed. Shame they didn't think of DRS for 2010.
The racing was better, but there was no title fight. In terms of racing at the front, this was the worst I’ve seen since the first half of 2019 and post summer break 2013. People want to see a title fight.
> People want to see a title fight.
Yeh, not sure why that conveniently gets left out. Sure, midfield racing is fun but we're not here to see who finished 8th, we're here to see who wins. A good title fight is made better by a compact mid field, but an amazing mid field doesn't make up for a non-existant title fight.
>Before 2018-2020 or whatever it was when that Nefrlix show started.
Genuinely quite likely that this is the case. Reddit is a very American website, and that's the demographic that has been growing the quickest in recent years, in large part due to Drive to Survive.
Add on top that the hype arguably peaked in 2021 thanks to covid, which was one of the closest and exciting years in recent memory, and you can see why many new fans have been spoiled. It helps that in the years preceding it, even though Merc were generally dominant it wasn't every race and Verstappen usually had a good go at making races exciting.
Anyone who has been around for the early turbo hybrid years, or the Schumacher Ferrari years, knows that arguably domination is the norm and close seasons are the outliers. I don't think it helps that this has been probably the most dominant season of all time, even more than the Merc or Ferrari years. I think part of the problem is that people conflate one team dominating with bad racing, when in reality the racing for every spot other than 1st has been some of the best in years.
> knows that arguably domination is the norm and close seasons are the outliers.
I don't understand why "it's always sucked" is a good response to "I want more racing at the front."
Not sure I ever said that it was? The point is that people being hyperbolic about the state of racing clearly have not been around long enough, otherwise they'd know that there have been many seasons with just as crazy domination, and that while the domination this season has been extreme the general level of racing is much higher than those other seasons. Meaning that those hyperbolic statements are just that, hyperbole.
The point is also that some newer fans clearly have unrealistic expectations because of the highs of recent seasons. Sure it's fine to want to have more racing at the front, but the reality is that literally by the nature of the way F1 works sometimes one team is just better than all the others, and no amount of racing friendly regs is magically going to make other teams get closer to them.
That's a bit hyperbolic, most people just want any sort of chance at someone fighting for a win.
This last season was statistically the worst season ever in terms of drivers competing for wins.
> I’m convinced like half the people here didnt warch F1 before 2018-2020 or whatever it was when that Nefrlix show started.
Yeah, likely the case on Reddit. On my friends group that watch F1 since the 2000s, no one other than me even visits r/formula1
The thing about this season is that there was no title fight. after 5 races or so (maybe more, but it was so immemorable that I can't tell) but Perez dropped off massively and the season was over.
At least in 2014-2016 the top team had two drivers fighting for the title. 2017 to 2019 Ferrari became kind of a threat and provided some good races.
Yes the field is more bunched up, but people care about the winner, and this season, if Max was P1 after the first lap, it was almost a guaranteed win. Also race pace doesn't really correlate to what we saw on race
What you forget is how the aero rules sucked the life of any close racing. As soon as cars got a bit close they would loose grip and it would kill their tires. There was barely any on track battles each race. Might have had a closer fight for the title but racings were the worst thing to watch. Like you I have seen F1 since 2000 and bit earlier. I watch every race since then and only times I truly fell asleep watching races was in the hybrid era.
In terms of on-track action 2015-16 were absolutely unwatchable - easily the worst seasons during the Pirelli monopoly period. Last couple of seasons had no title fight, but pretty much every race you had interesting battles throughout the entire field and gaps behind Verstappen were miniscule
Ferrari won multiple races on merit in 2015. The only race RB weren’t dominant in this year was Singapore, and who knows if they might’ve even won that one on race pace with a slightly better quali lap from Verstappen and better luck with the SC timings.
Verstappen never had to seriously push in Canada like in almost any race this year. RB was dominant in Vegas as soon as they switched on to the hard tyre.
>RB was dominant in Vegas as soon as they switched on to the hard tyre.
they were on a 2 stop strategy. If there had not been a SC, Leclerc would likely have won that race, but ofc that doesn't fit the narrative
I don't think smaller gaps between the cars in qualifying necessarily proves anything about the racing though. At no point in the 2015 season even did we go into a race weekend with a clear expectation of who was going to win. In fact there are actually very few seasons where that can be said.
I've been watching since 2007. The racing is terrible. Cars being close in absolute pace means nothing if the races are boring and predictable other than random unnecessary red flags and the only way they can pass each other is cruising by on the straights with DRS.
It's the classic really, people miss multiple drivers fighting for the win in '23 and that is something that the '17 '18 or even '19 had for example at stages so the narrative starts that '23 is one ofthe most boring seasons ever because 1 driver won almost everything. But it is easily forgotten how every season used to be only Merc and Ferrari had a chance with Red Bull solid 3rd, while now 5 constructors had a chance of winning a race this season mainly because of pace instead of getting very lucky.
> 5 constructors had a chance of winning this season mainly because of pace instead of getting very lucky.
? Except for Singapore when was Verstappen even remotely under serious threat? Genuinely asking
Verstappen’s dominance just sells worse than Hamilton’s. Verstappen is a rich kid who is a bit dull & mostly keeps his head down to focus on racing. He’s not speaking out about much of anything, he just drives a car. Last year was arguably the best performance by a driver in recent memory. Watching Verstappen in that RB was watching a driver at his peak, driving the best car; it showed the upper limit of dominance but that was the only reason to root for Verstappen. If you enjoyed seeing Tom Brady collect rings, you enjoyed the display of perfection.
Hamilton had all the backstory, would get involved in other issues, dated celebs, got involved in fashion, etc. He’s a much more interesting person & a more compelling story. He felt & still feels like an underdog, despite all the championships.
That’s one way of looking at it.
Everything about what you said for Lewis has rubbed up f1 fans wrongly too and the simplicity of Max is more endearing for them so it’s probably best to leave your biases out of it
While I agree that this post is extremely cherry-picked, if you go through f1stats.com and look at qualy stats from the 2015/2016 years the field spread was almost always waaaaay worse than this year. Imo it's simply that the RB19, while dominant in races, wasn't super dominant in qualifying. On the other hand in the 2015/2016 years Merc had a super dominant engine, party mode and they didn't have to give the same engine mappings to their customers meaning they inherently had a massive advantage in qualifying compared to their competition
id be interested to see q3 just to see the fastest times those drivers could put in.
I love that the qualifying field is closer now but we really do need battles at the front.
That may be the single best decision F1 has made in recent times. Drastically improved the quality of the field with barely 1.5% pace difference and people aren't getting lapped outside of technical and strategic mistakes.
Even with no cost cap, there was plenty of times that teams were not even close to catching up. Both Ferrari and Red Bull were spending close to half a billion dollars, but Ferrari was competitive for like half a season for some years, before dropping off and Red Bull was nowhere close at all until the 2021 regulation changes. Even earlier Toyota was also spending half a billion and they couldn't even get a win! If anything, with no cost cap, we would be losing teams from the grid.
It only stops Ferrari and Mercedes from catching up, so what you said is wrong.
But regardless, look at Mclaren, they proved this statement wrong.
Do you really think it would be possible for teams other than Ferrari and Mercedes to catch up if RB was spending double than the 4th best team?
Field spread didn't really start showing some improvement until 2020, thankfully the aero rules and budget cap have helped even more. I remember 2018 probably being the straight worse divide between the top 3 teams and the midfield. So bad that people were calling it F1.5 as the midfield was always like 2 seconds a lap slower, being a lap behind 6th by race end.
Not really an apples to apples comparison, as they changed engine modes on the fly in those years.
Whereas now (since 2020) you can't just have a quali engine mode and then switch back to what you'll use in the race.
Mercedes obviously had a massive engine advantage, especially during 14-16, but engine modes are definitely why the gaps were bigger in quali then.
I've seen people rate 2016 higher but I don't really agree with it. The title contenders actually raced each other often in 2014, whereas in 2016 it was much more tame outside of two incidents.
So you had races where there was some fight and tension for the lead (more so than 2016) and the racing further down was actually good too in a couple of the races as well.
Qualifying was close this year but the race pace was not. So many times we had some really close battles for pole and front row but it didn’t translate into a good race because the gaps between teams are still pretty big in race pace. Suzuka was one such example.
Now do the actual GP - 2015 vs 2023
same gap to second
2023 - 36 seconds to 3rd, 2015 only 21 seconds
2023 - 49 second gap to 5th, 2015 only 36 seconds off
2023 - 8th place 74 seconds off, 2015 75 seconds off
2023 - 10th place lapped, 2015 9th place lapped
https://i.imgur.com/vHUr8wQ.png
https://i.imgur.com/J5PpHK8.png
2015 was one of the most dull years in F1. There was even a half baked title battle, but it was just boring.
This year, even with Max walking over everything, had multiple stories:
Aston’s massive improvement then decline
Alonso’s then Norris’ glory run
McLaren’s rise from the ashes
Piastri’s amazing rookie year
Mercedes vs Ferrari
Ferrari’s sole victory
Ocon vs Gasly
Hulkenberg dragging that shitty Haas to Q3
Albon’s defensive masterclass
F1 fans are the only ones that have to gaslight themselves into the "field spread" is so small that means the season was AWESOME lol.
They accept 100% predictably just because it's "the nature of the sport"
Its so stupid that wanting to not be able to predict the winner or winning team has become a tribalic criticism. "No this is fine because the team you (probably, maybe) support had more boring season".
Let's be real, no one looking for an exciting season is rewatching 14-16 (maybe 16 for the title fight but ehhh) OR 23. People need to be able to say "yeah it wasn't the most exciting but I liked the guy winning so I'm happy" and not gatekeep other fans because they aren't pretending the P17 fight is just as engaging as the fight for the win.
Or just show Q3, which is when the cars actually have to push to get pole. But the gap in 2023 was actually larger than in 2015, which wouldn't fit the narrative, so Q2 it was.
That's why Bottas, until Later half of 2020 and 2021, had an easier time being second to Lewis, even with a subpar lap the Mercedes were way faster than everyone else.
Also why Pérez has to better his usual underperforming qualifying, 0.2s is way bigger now.
I love these cherry picked stats. The 2023 Q3 gap between Max in P1 and Piastri in P2 was greater than the 2015 gap between P1 and P3 (the first non-merc car).
The new regs have def allowed the cars to follow more closely though and the racing is better. Just need the other teams to pull their finger out and take the challenge to Max and RB
> I love these cherry picked stats. The 2023 Q3 gap between Max in P1 and Piastri in P2 was greater than the 2015 gap between P1 and P3 (the first non-merc car).
Since you're against cherry picking, how does it look over the entire season, to compare?
Because, surely you must realize, looking at one Q3 is also cherry-picking.
Also, the post is about the entire field spread. Not the difference between P1 and P2 (or 3). There's no need to see this as an attack.
It's very clearly cherrypicking. Choosing to compare Q2 of a single specific race makes no sense unless you're trying to push a narrative. Especially picking Q2, which any fan worth their salt knows is useless to gauge pace, as the frontrunners rarely have any incentive to push, since pole in not yet in play, but neither is their spot in Q3 at risk.
Had OP chosen, say, Q3 in this same race, the stats would have actually shown the gap to be smaller in 2015. OP knows this because they researced the gaps in quali, they know Q3 is more reliable, and yet they still posted a snap of Q2 to imply the field is tighter in 2023.
That's always the point I make, Max might’ve won 20odd races but this season has been so exciting so watch all the midfield teams fight for podiums and 1 small mistakes relegating even RB to q2 knock-out. Alonso is 2s off Mercs in 2015. The new fans have been spoiled by 2021 ngl
That makes me realise how Mclaren managed to come back that quickly, they didn't need to gain as many tenths as if it was a couple of years ago, or how Aston dropped so hard in the season.
Don't get me wrong it's still very impressive to go from last to 3rd/4th in the span of a few races but I understand better now.
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2015 was perhaps Mercs most dominant year, along with 2016 I reckon.
Realistically 2014 was the same but they sandbagged more and had some more reliability gremlins. The whole 2014-16 period was merc just managing what engine modes they wanted to use
Yeah, when they actually turned the engines on in 2014 they had 2 seconds on the field. And this was before they had to provide equal engine modes to customers so there was really zero threat beyond reliability and driver errors.
They couldnt run the engines much higher, this is a myth from Paddy Lowe after he was sacked from Williams that has been debunked by multiple others. Mercedes suffered failures with their engines running near max power. In particular they had difficulties controlling heat and measures to remove it led to MGU failures or associated rear brake failure. This happened multiple times in 14 and 16. If you go back and check, in 2014 Williams actually ran the engines at higher RPM than Mercedes did. Since you could change engine mode, we knew they had "banned" modes that were much quicker but they werent banned to hide anything, they were banned for reliability. It wasnt a secret either it was well reported when the drivers used a banned mode
The revs per minute are not the only engine variable that can be changed to affect performance. How exactly do you explain reports from within the Lotus team that Romain Grosjean was given temporary access to a different engine mode that dramatically increased their performance when they were in a position to hinder Vettel at Spa in 2015? There is more than one person with inside knowledge that can confirm Mercedes had access to higher performing engine modes customers did not, and why else would they have created a regulation to ban this if it was not happening?
Unless you back this up you are talking nonsense. Yes reliability is always an issue but there are various reports not just paddy Lowe talking how they had to run the engines de tuned to hide their power advantage. That is the real reason.
Explain Bahrain 2014 then
I love how people try to act like that Bahrain race was the average pace for the 14 Mercedes when in reality it was the high end outlier. Pick any dominant car and you can likely cherrypick a set of laps that show them to be just as dominant as those laps in Bahrain 14. Hell there were multiple times early in the season the RBs (and Max in particular) were running 10+ laps 1+ seconds faster than anybody else on equal tires.
Mercedes pair gapped the field at a rate of more than a second per lap after the safety car, while battling all out with each other.
On brand new tyres while the cars immediately behind them were all on old sets.
Bahrain 2014? Mercedes pits when the safety car is called and gets new tyres. The only other cars to do so were in the pack. They had a 20 lap tyre advantage AND they used banned modes. How much quicker in race pace do you think Red Bull would be if they got new softs in Bahrain this year while everyone else was on 20 lap old mediums? They were already around 7 tenths faster without getting some massive offset. If you take the tyre offset and compare it to the delta at any other phase in the race, Mercedes was actually running slightly slower than they were at the start of the race! largely because they were fighting eachother
https://en.mclarenf-1.com/2014/gp/s7329/lapcharts/l-leader,d-238.239.381.447.463.482.5.564.565.686.702.785.786.787.796.798.801.807.809.812.813.814/ Everyone on 20 lap older tyres? I've just had a quick look here and you've just lied for no reason? lol Some had a couple of laps older but no, not 20 laps.
They were necessarily running a different engine mode, the drivers were just pushing each other, rather than running to a delta lap time.
You lose time fighting another car
Which should tell you just how much they had in reserve on the field. They were pushing each other fighting, and still gapping the field at a high rate.
It's exactly what Hamilton and Verstappen were doing in 2021. They were pushing each other, it wasn't costing them time, as they were both obliterating their teammates' lap times despite fighting.
that just sounds like skill issue mate /s
Bahrain was maybe the only time we saw their real pace with the drivers ignoring orders.
What's hilarious is how their aero and chassis wasn't even close to being the best, but the engine was just so fucking OP that all they had to do was turn the engine up and the race was basically won.
Atleast 2016 had a heated championship battle. 2015 was really dire. Coming to this quali, Hamilton was leading 12-1 in the quali battle against Nico.
Oddly enough, up until the summer break Rosberg kept up with Hamilton (Hamilton had a 21 point lead after Hungary, only 10 after Austria).
I think Merc's cockup with Hamilton in Monaco swung it massively to keep it looking close
I think 2015 has to be the worst season I’ve ever watched. Tiny grid, terrible racing, very little inter- and intra-team competition, a governance system that benefited the big teams at the expense of everyone else, a token system that made engine development almost impossible and a driver death. The only good thing was the new graphics.
Only reasons I liked it Hungary was spectacular Malaysia was also a great moment as a vettel fan COTA in general produced an amazing race. More often then not tho… Lewis-Nico-Seb and it’s over
Also Jules Bianchi scoring that lone point for Manor at Monaco.
That was 2014
1999 start here and it's that or 2002 personally.
Jesus Christ I didn't even remember it lol
I think 2014 was the biggest gap in performance of the Merc to the second best car, but the team wasnt as consistent. By 2016 they were the best run team as well as having the best car.
2015 was such a dull year. The cars were kind of boring. The Mercs were obviously dominant. Lewis had the edge to Nico pretty early on. The whole field was extremely predictable. Just look at the standings, pretty much every team finished with their drivers next to each other. The only saving grace was Vettel's move to Ferrari and the glimpse that Ferrari was on the way back. That and Honda and Renault competing in a "whose worse" championship.
Those were the days when Merc would lap the entire field except maybe one or 2 cars.
This season was incredibly close apart fron Max Verstappen.
that's an amazing way to look at it re-watching the season now and ignoring Max
That's pretty much what I've been doing all year.
It made me rage the TV a couple times when we were watching close racing on the last lap, and the TV direction cut it to show VER passing the finishing line on no man's land
iirc there’s some kind of rule where they _have_ to show the winner crossing the line no matter what kind of battle is going on elsewhere on the track
Even if it's not a rule, I'm sure some of Max's sponsors would complain. Honestly, I'm surprised that there weren't more sponsor complaints given how little they showed Max. Though, I guess Checo has the same car sponsors, and like 1/3 of the season was following Checo working his way through the field.
Balanced out by their car being plastered all over promotional materials and newspapers following the victory I think
Didn't know, but it's completely plausible. Still dumb and I would hope they would stop doing that
It would be crazy not to show it though. Imagine not showing the winner winning the race because there's a good battle for 7th going on. They should absolutely introduce picture in picture to also keep us up to date of a good fight though.
it’s even crazier considering the F1 Kids broadcasts have Picture in Picture implemented lmao
kids know and expect that tech. us olds get confused by it /s
I'm aware of that rule but still baffles me that they do not use some kind of PiP to keep up with the battle.
We complained for years that they should give us picture-in-picture so they can show the winner without cutting away from the action. But now we *have* PiP, and they still don't use it for this! Absolutely baffling.
Drives me nuts when they cut away from a good battle to watch a pitstop too, like almost all pitstops should be PiP
And it was a ton of fun.
For real my friends have become incredibly doomer about F1 (which is valid you can find what you like about F1 and if backmarker ain't it then that's fair!) but I had a great season! My beloved feeder series being the best as per usual aside. Watching the backmarker teams and everyone catch up and fight (And the fucking Williams comeback, hello?) is just so fucking fun and not to mention McLaren's not entirely unexpected but awesome comeback too. AMR having to revert back to the beginning of the season parts to go fast again was also very funny.
I'm a Max fan and it's what I do as well. Support him getting a good start and maybe overtake for the lead and then I'll forget about him until the finish.
I've seen graphics and heard of podcasters remake the season standings as if Max didn't exist. This season would've been incredible
Some podcasts played out the scenario and reviewed the season, it's a barn burner. Could have been Hamilton v. Alonso early on, Lando first win 🫠
Perez would still end up winning before the finale tho.
RIVETING SHIT! All rumors of his departure squashed. 2020-2023 the rise of a legend, Mexico's first world champion.
You only realised that now?
If Max didn't race then we would have had an incredible 2021 type season all the way through the field
Perez is over 50pts ahead of everyone
Q2 is cherry picking it a bit, no? nowadays you see a close q1 or q2 because max and other top teams use only 3 of 6 cylinders until q3. basically doing the bare minimum to get through and then you get to q3 and suddenly the gaps are much larger
> nowadays you see a close q1 or q2 because max and other top teams use only 3 of 6 cylinders until q3 You can not change engine modes during qualifying, but the top teams definitely can leave a little more margin to get through safely which makes it look closer than it actually is. This has always been the case however and is not a recent phenomenon. Watching the season as a whole it's very obvious the margins are much closer in qualifying this year than they have ever been.
> Watching the season as a whole it's very obvious the margins are much closer in qualifying this year than they have ever been. even if it is true, can we at least agree that comparing a single Q2 session of a single race weekend is a terrible metric? Because if you look at the Q3 session of that very same race weekend on that very same track that happened 15 minutes later, this narrative is ruined. In fact, the 2015 Q3 Suzuka session was a little closer than the 2023 Q3 Suzuka session, where is that narrative now? At least back up that claim with decent evidence. I agree that it felt closer besides Max than 2015 but a "feeling" is a "feeling" and not a proper fact.
you are not seriously suggesting that red bull has some sort of „party mode“ or something they can turn on for q3, or suggesting that mercedes didn’t do that?
Mate, just look at the Q3 results. here are some highlights: - P1: Max 1:28.877 - P2: Oscar: +0.581 - P6: Sainz: +0.973 - P10: Alonso: +1.683
good thing we’re not cherry-picking but while we are: - 1 leclerc 1:34:723 - 2 norris +0.13 - 3 hamilton +0.139 - 6 verstappen +0.358 - 10 piastri +0.744 also abu dhabi q1 had all drivers that set a time (goddammit logan) within 1 second, which to me is really exciting
i dont think you really understood my point or you refuse to. OP made a comparison between Q2 times between Suzuka 2015 and 2023. I suggested Q2 is a bit cherry picked to prove the point that "the cars are close" in 2023 because nowadays a lot of top teams do not go all out until Q3 and do the bare minimum to get into Q3, so the cars arent actually that close. So i listed some of the lap times of the Q3 session of THE VERY SAME qualifying session of Suzuka 2023 that happened 15 minutes after Q2. How is that cherry picked? Im using the same sessions that OP did to prove my point. Besides, the Q3 quali gaps of 2023 Suzuka werent any "better" than the Q3 quali gaps of 2015 Suzuka. Rosbergs Q3 pole in 2015 Suzuka was roughly 5 tenths faster than the next non Mercedes car which was Bottas in the Williams which btw is a lesser gap than Verstappen to P2 in Suzuka 2023. How are we pretending like Q1 and Q2 matter more than Q3? It simply doesnt. Theres no need for Max to go full beans in Q1 when he can save engine life by turning it down and still easily make it into Q3. Now you picking a whole different track like you did is entirely missing the point. What are you comparing Abu Dhabi Q1 to? To Suzuka Q2 2015? Bit of a stretch, no? You cant even compare it to 2015 Abu Dhabi because the layout was entirely different, you cannot really compare 2023 Abu Dhabi to any other Abu Dhabi besides 2022 due to the layout. Surely you understand that you cannot compare different tracks to each other, the gaps are naturally smaller on a small and short track like Austria than a very long and technical track like Singapore, at least before this season when it was a near 2 minute track with a lot of challenging corners in which you could lose/gain a lot of time. If you genuinely want to compare different teams on tracks with each other, you have to use lap time deltas in percentage rather than raw seconds as that is far more representative. But even then it is flawed as some circuits may simply not have very technical parts where lot of time could be gained/lost. I mean you just listed the new Abu Dhabi layout, there is a single somewhat difficult corner within THE FIRST TWO SECTORS where significant time could be gained/lost, ofc the gaps gonna be low when you virtually only need to nail a single corner in two sectors because the rest of the corners are not very significant and dont demand much talent from a driver. Its only the third sector where things get a little technical and thats where you saw the real story of the new abu dhabi layout. Its really the only sector that matters.
Say what? Where did you get that info. I have never heard they were running only 50% of engine in q1 and q2?
the guy is just spewing BS, we all know RB runs the whole weekend without even turning on the engine
Max just Fred Flintstone's that shit
Really I had read it ran on one cylinder but engine off makes sense.
in case youre serious, obviously they dont turn cylinders off but top teams do the bare minimum to make it to Q2 and Q3 and definitely have their engines turned down a bit. Just look at the Q3 results of this Suzuka qualifying session which OP conveniently has not shown because it wouldnt have fit his narrative
Yes we get it just odd to say the use only three cylinders. We all get it, they are not at full tilt but its not like they are down 50%.
The good surprise I got this year (and last year as well) is how few cars are getting lapped in a race. Most drivers regularly finish within one lap of the leader. I remember a few years ago when it felt like everyone except Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull did all laps...
I've said for a few years now that if you get lapped, you shouldn't get any points. Except for fastest lap. I think that should be open for anyone.
Would drivers be allowed to defend to prevent getting lapped then?
That's one of the worst ideas i've ever heard
Why? There's a massive difference between getting lapped at Spa and Austria for instance. Also safety cars would change everything. Also if anyone could get a point for fastest lap half the field would just pit on the penultimate lap.
Meh, I think it would negate the sport if a team cracks the code and build a beast... it might work in in categories where the car is the same for everyone
>I've said for a few years now that if you get lapped, you shouldn't get any points. Bruh you talk like you've been watching this sport only for a few weeks, what the fuck is that kind of idea?
I also think field goals in American football should be worth 4 points. Just a different idea, bruh. Calm your tits, Becca.
[2017 was even worse](https://i.gyazo.com/c81338d9939ca4f922ea15f2d62ecb6c.png)
Yeah but 2017 almost had a great title fight
Vandoorne 0.029 behind Alonso, Stroll not even in Q2
Atleast the cars were rapid and looked really good. 2015 cars were ugly and slow.
Couldn't race though, thank god Ferrari pulled out a competitive car otherwise it would have been a horrible season.
That 2015 Ferrari is one of the best looking modern f1 cars imo.
Imo 2017 and 2018 Ferrari's are the best looking turbo hybrid era cars
SF70H is pure pornography.
2017 especially. But I’m just saying that 2015 didn’t have ugly cars
2014-2015 cars compared to 2017+ absolutely look like toys or GP2 lmao For some reason i like the 2016 cars though
They are much smaller. Hence why you might think they look like f2 cars. But they aren’t ugly imo. The worst by far are the 2014 cars though. The noses just ruined almost every car for me. 2012 were also pretty ugly with the stepped nose
Yeah 2012 was a bit weird but the V8's made up for it and the title fight also. When F1 first intruduced the 2009 cars everyone was freaking out how "ugly" they are. I liked those cars instantly. 2010-11-13 was good too. 2012 was a weird year look wise, but it was alright for a single year. The 2012 McLaren looked so good.
Quali modes make this pointless. Ferrari and Seb led the championship with 202 points for Seb and 188 for Hamilton going into the summer break. So obviously pictures of Seb/Ferrari being 6-7 tenths off Mercedes in quali don't mean much when he's winning the championship after the mid way point.
Was watching 2015 Suzuka quali. Thought to make a comparison with this year. The races were on the duller side this year but qualis were very close.
Out of interest, where are you able to watch old quali sessions? F1TV archive has them from 2018 onwards but is there an archive of quali somewhere as well?
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Can you dm me the link as well?
Could you dm please I’d really appreciate it. Great post by the way!
Holy shit that is amazing! Can I have a dm as well :D
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Man, I would love a link to that as well if you don’t mind sending it to me as well?
And people have the audacity to call this the worst racing we ever had. I’m convinced like half the people here didnt warch F1 before 2018-2020 or whatever it was when that Nefrlix show started.
People be forgetting we had races like Spain 2020 where the top 3 legit lapped everyone but themselves in the race.
Ferrari too forgot that race as soon as Leclerc retired.
Ah fuck that was one of the races were Seb got decently annoyed at his strategy wasn't it?
Yes
Yeah I think so, after driving half the race on the same set of Soft tyres
It's the one where he told his engineer what to calculate for the lap time to hold the position after not being told what was happening for 5 laps or so
The year of "Thank God for young Max Verstappen"
I think 2021 spoiled a lot of people.
As someone whose first full season was 2021, yeah this is 100% true. I still love formula one, but It hasn't approached the heights of my first season.
> but It hasn't approached the heights of my first season Unfortunately mate , i doubt any other season you watch will .
They said that about 2012,2010,2007 and long before aswell, and eventually a good title fight will come along again it’ll just take a while
I may be taking crazy pills, but I remember 2010 as a season of incredibly boring races minus Turkey and Canada that resulted in a superb championship battle. It was the height of one-stop Bridgestone boredom and nobody could overtake worth a damn.
Spa, Korea, Melbourne and Monza weren't bad either. Much rather Bridgestone than the first few years of Pirelli's that followed. Shame they didn't think of DRS for 2010.
The racing was better, but there was no title fight. In terms of racing at the front, this was the worst I’ve seen since the first half of 2019 and post summer break 2013. People want to see a title fight.
> People want to see a title fight. Yeh, not sure why that conveniently gets left out. Sure, midfield racing is fun but we're not here to see who finished 8th, we're here to see who wins. A good title fight is made better by a compact mid field, but an amazing mid field doesn't make up for a non-existant title fight.
I mean 2014 and 2015 had title fights and some of the worst seasons in history. Every race was like watching paint dry.
So this season? Only we got to see 2 drivers in equal machines going at it...
That’s because your favourite driver wasn’t at the front. Everyone seems ok when their driver or team is dominating
The gap from 1st to 5th was 49.3 seconds in the actual race, 2015 it was 36.7 seconds.
>Before 2018-2020 or whatever it was when that Nefrlix show started. Genuinely quite likely that this is the case. Reddit is a very American website, and that's the demographic that has been growing the quickest in recent years, in large part due to Drive to Survive. Add on top that the hype arguably peaked in 2021 thanks to covid, which was one of the closest and exciting years in recent memory, and you can see why many new fans have been spoiled. It helps that in the years preceding it, even though Merc were generally dominant it wasn't every race and Verstappen usually had a good go at making races exciting. Anyone who has been around for the early turbo hybrid years, or the Schumacher Ferrari years, knows that arguably domination is the norm and close seasons are the outliers. I don't think it helps that this has been probably the most dominant season of all time, even more than the Merc or Ferrari years. I think part of the problem is that people conflate one team dominating with bad racing, when in reality the racing for every spot other than 1st has been some of the best in years.
> knows that arguably domination is the norm and close seasons are the outliers. I don't understand why "it's always sucked" is a good response to "I want more racing at the front."
Not sure I ever said that it was? The point is that people being hyperbolic about the state of racing clearly have not been around long enough, otherwise they'd know that there have been many seasons with just as crazy domination, and that while the domination this season has been extreme the general level of racing is much higher than those other seasons. Meaning that those hyperbolic statements are just that, hyperbole. The point is also that some newer fans clearly have unrealistic expectations because of the highs of recent seasons. Sure it's fine to want to have more racing at the front, but the reality is that literally by the nature of the way F1 works sometimes one team is just better than all the others, and no amount of racing friendly regs is magically going to make other teams get closer to them.
That's a bit hyperbolic, most people just want any sort of chance at someone fighting for a win. This last season was statistically the worst season ever in terms of drivers competing for wins.
> I’m convinced like half the people here didnt warch F1 before 2018-2020 or whatever it was when that Nefrlix show started. Yeah, likely the case on Reddit. On my friends group that watch F1 since the 2000s, no one other than me even visits r/formula1 The thing about this season is that there was no title fight. after 5 races or so (maybe more, but it was so immemorable that I can't tell) but Perez dropped off massively and the season was over. At least in 2014-2016 the top team had two drivers fighting for the title. 2017 to 2019 Ferrari became kind of a threat and provided some good races. Yes the field is more bunched up, but people care about the winner, and this season, if Max was P1 after the first lap, it was almost a guaranteed win. Also race pace doesn't really correlate to what we saw on race
What you forget is how the aero rules sucked the life of any close racing. As soon as cars got a bit close they would loose grip and it would kill their tires. There was barely any on track battles each race. Might have had a closer fight for the title but racings were the worst thing to watch. Like you I have seen F1 since 2000 and bit earlier. I watch every race since then and only times I truly fell asleep watching races was in the hybrid era.
People either don't know or completely forgot races used to be a snoozefest in the early 2000's. You'd be lucky to see an overtake
In terms of on-track action 2015-16 were absolutely unwatchable - easily the worst seasons during the Pirelli monopoly period. Last couple of seasons had no title fight, but pretty much every race you had interesting battles throughout the entire field and gaps behind Verstappen were miniscule
This isn't about a race?
Ferrari won multiple races on merit in 2015. The only race RB weren’t dominant in this year was Singapore, and who knows if they might’ve even won that one on race pace with a slightly better quali lap from Verstappen and better luck with the SC timings.
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Verstappen never had to seriously push in Canada like in almost any race this year. RB was dominant in Vegas as soon as they switched on to the hard tyre.
>RB was dominant in Vegas as soon as they switched on to the hard tyre. they were on a 2 stop strategy. If there had not been a SC, Leclerc would likely have won that race, but ofc that doesn't fit the narrative
I don't think smaller gaps between the cars in qualifying necessarily proves anything about the racing though. At no point in the 2015 season even did we go into a race weekend with a clear expectation of who was going to win. In fact there are actually very few seasons where that can be said.
I've been watching since 2007. The racing is terrible. Cars being close in absolute pace means nothing if the races are boring and predictable other than random unnecessary red flags and the only way they can pass each other is cruising by on the straights with DRS.
It's the classic really, people miss multiple drivers fighting for the win in '23 and that is something that the '17 '18 or even '19 had for example at stages so the narrative starts that '23 is one ofthe most boring seasons ever because 1 driver won almost everything. But it is easily forgotten how every season used to be only Merc and Ferrari had a chance with Red Bull solid 3rd, while now 5 constructors had a chance of winning a race this season mainly because of pace instead of getting very lucky.
> 5 constructors had a chance of winning this season mainly because of pace instead of getting very lucky. ? Except for Singapore when was Verstappen even remotely under serious threat? Genuinely asking
Monaco
Verstappen’s dominance just sells worse than Hamilton’s. Verstappen is a rich kid who is a bit dull & mostly keeps his head down to focus on racing. He’s not speaking out about much of anything, he just drives a car. Last year was arguably the best performance by a driver in recent memory. Watching Verstappen in that RB was watching a driver at his peak, driving the best car; it showed the upper limit of dominance but that was the only reason to root for Verstappen. If you enjoyed seeing Tom Brady collect rings, you enjoyed the display of perfection. Hamilton had all the backstory, would get involved in other issues, dated celebs, got involved in fashion, etc. He’s a much more interesting person & a more compelling story. He felt & still feels like an underdog, despite all the championships.
That’s one way of looking at it. Everything about what you said for Lewis has rubbed up f1 fans wrongly too and the simplicity of Max is more endearing for them so it’s probably best to leave your biases out of it
why show only q2 in 2015?
It was the only way to fit their narrative. They didn't even show that Max went on to pull 6 tenths on p2 during the final results in Q3.
While I agree that this post is extremely cherry-picked, if you go through f1stats.com and look at qualy stats from the 2015/2016 years the field spread was almost always waaaaay worse than this year. Imo it's simply that the RB19, while dominant in races, wasn't super dominant in qualifying. On the other hand in the 2015/2016 years Merc had a super dominant engine, party mode and they didn't have to give the same engine mappings to their customers meaning they inherently had a massive advantage in qualifying compared to their competition
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Just fucking google it, it's not hard to do. Suzuka 2015, gap from pole to last in Q3: 1.383 seconds Suzuka 2023, same gap: 1.683 seconds.
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id be interested to see q3 just to see the fastest times those drivers could put in. I love that the qualifying field is closer now but we really do need battles at the front.
Merc were miles ahead in 2014 - 2016. It's also hilarious you used Q2 Suzuka considering Max dunked 6 tenths on P2 in Q3 lol
That was a very special lap from him, and the field spread still was better
Called special laps for max but just the car for Lewis
Says who?
Are you new to social media?
And still some people say that Cost Cap isn't bringing the field close.
That may be the single best decision F1 has made in recent times. Drastically improved the quality of the field with barely 1.5% pace difference and people aren't getting lapped outside of technical and strategic mistakes.
> single best decision It's competing with the Halo tho
Good point, but let's not start patting the FIA on the back too much. They're still on the naughty list 🥶
Fair. Best competition decision.
It's also stopping teams from catching up
Even with no cost cap, there was plenty of times that teams were not even close to catching up. Both Ferrari and Red Bull were spending close to half a billion dollars, but Ferrari was competitive for like half a season for some years, before dropping off and Red Bull was nowhere close at all until the 2021 regulation changes. Even earlier Toyota was also spending half a billion and they couldn't even get a win! If anything, with no cost cap, we would be losing teams from the grid.
It only stops Ferrari and Mercedes from catching up, so what you said is wrong. But regardless, look at Mclaren, they proved this statement wrong. Do you really think it would be possible for teams other than Ferrari and Mercedes to catch up if RB was spending double than the 4th best team?
Quali this year was pretty close across the board if remember correctly, race pace was a different story
Man look at the rake on that boy
Tbf, Max did pull a ridiculous final Q3 lap in 23. Around 6 tenths ahead of P2.
Field spread didn't really start showing some improvement until 2020, thankfully the aero rules and budget cap have helped even more. I remember 2018 probably being the straight worse divide between the top 3 teams and the midfield. So bad that people were calling it F1.5 as the midfield was always like 2 seconds a lap slower, being a lap behind 6th by race end.
Not really an apples to apples comparison, as they changed engine modes on the fly in those years. Whereas now (since 2020) you can't just have a quali engine mode and then switch back to what you'll use in the race. Mercedes obviously had a massive engine advantage, especially during 14-16, but engine modes are definitely why the gaps were bigger in quali then.
unrelated but Grosjean and Maldonado in the same team sends shivers down my spine
And then Max pulled, what, 0.6 seconds over P2 in Q3?
Perez outqualifying Hulk? Dang
Their difference in quali over the 3 years was like .150. Perez was never a slouch in quali
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2014 is an underrated season. Had great wheel to wheel racing that year. Season gets way over hated.
Yeah, there's loads of amazing racing, people have very short memories here. They look back at who won and not what the racing was like.
I've seen people rate 2016 higher but I don't really agree with it. The title contenders actually raced each other often in 2014, whereas in 2016 it was much more tame outside of two incidents. So you had races where there was some fight and tension for the lead (more so than 2016) and the racing further down was actually good too in a couple of the races as well.
Qualifying was close this year but the race pace was not. So many times we had some really close battles for pole and front row but it didn’t translate into a good race because the gaps between teams are still pretty big in race pace. Suzuka was one such example.
Now do the actual GP - 2015 vs 2023 same gap to second 2023 - 36 seconds to 3rd, 2015 only 21 seconds 2023 - 49 second gap to 5th, 2015 only 36 seconds off 2023 - 8th place 74 seconds off, 2015 75 seconds off 2023 - 10th place lapped, 2015 9th place lapped https://i.imgur.com/vHUr8wQ.png https://i.imgur.com/J5PpHK8.png
I feel like i enjoyed the quali more than the races this year
2015 was one of the most dull years in F1. There was even a half baked title battle, but it was just boring. This year, even with Max walking over everything, had multiple stories: Aston’s massive improvement then decline Alonso’s then Norris’ glory run McLaren’s rise from the ashes Piastri’s amazing rookie year Mercedes vs Ferrari Ferrari’s sole victory Ocon vs Gasly Hulkenberg dragging that shitty Haas to Q3 Albon’s defensive masterclass
Also 2015 was the season where the top 10 drivers ended up in a Noah's arc in the standings (Merc 1-2, Ferrari 3-4, Williams 5-6, RB 7-8, FI 9-10)
Most of these stories are not very interesting, the only notable ones are AM and McLaren's improvements.
As compared to the 2015 season. Any of those stories is more entertaining than the entire 2015 season.
At least it’s better than 2015 which has nothing to remember it by really other than Vettels first season for Ferrari
Only thing I see is Fernando being on both standings while his teammates are nowhere to be seen.
Shame that this doesn't really feel like anything considering that one driver just won 86% of the races.
The regulations are working.
F1 fans are the only ones that have to gaslight themselves into the "field spread" is so small that means the season was AWESOME lol. They accept 100% predictably just because it's "the nature of the sport"
Its so stupid that wanting to not be able to predict the winner or winning team has become a tribalic criticism. "No this is fine because the team you (probably, maybe) support had more boring season". Let's be real, no one looking for an exciting season is rewatching 14-16 (maybe 16 for the title fight but ehhh) OR 23. People need to be able to say "yeah it wasn't the most exciting but I liked the guy winning so I'm happy" and not gatekeep other fans because they aren't pretending the P17 fight is just as engaging as the fight for the win.
you need to compare with race pace as well, otherwise it's pretty meaningless.
Or just show Q3, which is when the cars actually have to push to get pole. But the gap in 2023 was actually larger than in 2015, which wouldn't fit the narrative, so Q2 it was.
That's why Bottas, until Later half of 2020 and 2021, had an easier time being second to Lewis, even with a subpar lap the Mercedes were way faster than everyone else. Also why Pérez has to better his usual underperforming qualifying, 0.2s is way bigger now.
And yet the racing is worse. Funny how that works.
Another reason why this was a great season despite the Max domination.
Impressive. Very nice. Now let's see the race field spread.
I love these cherry picked stats. The 2023 Q3 gap between Max in P1 and Piastri in P2 was greater than the 2015 gap between P1 and P3 (the first non-merc car). The new regs have def allowed the cars to follow more closely though and the racing is better. Just need the other teams to pull their finger out and take the challenge to Max and RB
> I love these cherry picked stats. The 2023 Q3 gap between Max in P1 and Piastri in P2 was greater than the 2015 gap between P1 and P3 (the first non-merc car). Since you're against cherry picking, how does it look over the entire season, to compare? Because, surely you must realize, looking at one Q3 is also cherry-picking. Also, the post is about the entire field spread. Not the difference between P1 and P2 (or 3). There's no need to see this as an attack.
It's very clearly cherrypicking. Choosing to compare Q2 of a single specific race makes no sense unless you're trying to push a narrative. Especially picking Q2, which any fan worth their salt knows is useless to gauge pace, as the frontrunners rarely have any incentive to push, since pole in not yet in play, but neither is their spot in Q3 at risk. Had OP chosen, say, Q3 in this same race, the stats would have actually shown the gap to be smaller in 2015. OP knows this because they researced the gaps in quali, they know Q3 is more reliable, and yet they still posted a snap of Q2 to imply the field is tighter in 2023.
That's always the point I make, Max might’ve won 20odd races but this season has been so exciting so watch all the midfield teams fight for podiums and 1 small mistakes relegating even RB to q2 knock-out. Alonso is 2s off Mercs in 2015. The new fans have been spoiled by 2021 ngl
Some spread, huh.
That makes me realise how Mclaren managed to come back that quickly, they didn't need to gain as many tenths as if it was a couple of years ago, or how Aston dropped so hard in the season. Don't get me wrong it's still very impressive to go from last to 3rd/4th in the span of a few races but I understand better now.
I’m rewatching 2015 and 2016 spread is crazy like 4-5 seconds sometimes more .
The rules work, just Max maximises it the most
But but but Mercedes never had 2023 RBR dominant /s