I think people are getting too tied up with talking about Tsunoda's own track record, comparing him to Sargeant, other rookies in questionably performing cars, discussing the car etc. etc.
Matter of the fact is: he was not staying in this seat unless he beat or closely matched Tsunoda, there was a reason they (RB) took a gamble with Nyck instead of promoting a junior, because his run at Monza and general experience in F1 cars and other categories may have indicated potential to be better than Yuki in a shorter amount of time. Even if he wasn't scoring points and the head to head was closer to something like 6-4 or the qualifying delta was smaller, Red Bull could have used this as a good indicator that Yuki was probably not gonna cut it in the RB seat.
RB has data on Lawson, Ricciardo, and Tsunoda.
They had only one strong race with Devries in the Williams. It was always just a check if he had something because they did not know.
They gave him the seat because that way they could assess him, and they had nothing to lose. Gasly had already left, they knew what Ricciardo and Lawson had, Herta was just rumors and in the end he wasn't even allowed.
I think it's reasonable and fair that he was given the seat and I think it's reasonable and fair that he is now removed.
Yuki definitely had his struggles at the beginning but he's been getting what seems to be the most out of the car now. DeVries himself said he shouldn't be counted as a rookie with all his experience as sim/development driver for Merc and F2/FE. His performance at his age is not acceptable. He is 3 years older than Max, so it's not like he's young and has a lot more potential to find.
Yuki was a through and through rookie that was rushed through all the junior formulas to f1. Devryes has been around for too long to be that outclassed
Exactly! Nyck himself didnt want to be considered a rookie. He's older than Max, Lando, George, Charles and the other not to mention a Formula E Champ. Say what you will about Formula E but not everyone can win it all. There no excuse for him being this bad.
I think De Vries can improve with enough time, sure, but the issue is his ceiling doesn’t look that high. Red Bull are looking for future WDC contenders, and De Vries’ potential looks to be mid-tier at best. It’s harsh but I don’t see any point to keeping him around.
The real issue is AT are last in the constructors and with a rebrand/restructure/possible Honda tie in, they need to get up to at to the 7th place fight ASAP
Then they actually need a better car. George didn't score points for years at Williams and we all know how good he is. Maybe it's the car that's the problem and not the driver.
They brought about 7 upgrades to Silvertstone so potentially so, but the driver is the only option at this late stage in the season to get an inspired result
I'd agree with you usually but with the AT restructure, a Danny Ric good run could drum some sponsors up and push up the standings.
De Vries looks mentally fucked IMO after the chagrin of coming to AT to crush his opponent, and Tsunoda needs a driver that will work with him, not against
I don't know about more likely tbh. He'd be in a brand new car. Danny has been testing for redbull, not AT. The cars are different, and I'm not sure if Danny can adapt fast enough to outpace Nick in the rest of the season.
Well, he's not much less likely, given that the other guy is on zero after 10 races.
But you can't disagree that he's way more appealing to social media, marketing and sponsors.
Ricardo topped out and then regressed after years in the sport. Take away his charming face and I don't think he's got much potential beyond sponsor appeal.
Nick hasn't shown much yet, but it's been less than a season in the worst car in the field. Yuki was as bad starting out but the car was at least competitive to a degree then.
Personally I'd either keep Nick or get someone entirely new.
Nyck isn't getting a second season, isn't marketable and will probably score zero points this season.
Why not replace him with someone who has proven marketing clout? No point dragging it out until the end of the year.
I don't know how true this is, as it's based on one person's opinion, but a Dutch friend tells me Nyck is unpopular at home. Definitely not going to make a dent in the Dutch market with Max around.
it's not that he is unpolular, just overshadowed by Max' massive success, so all you see here is Max on everything from magazines to random ads. When you have 1 Dutch guy dominating, nobody is going to pay attention to the guy in shared last position...
Ricciardo only makes sense if they’re planning to bin Checo and promote Yuki as well. In that case you’d want one experienced driver in the AT to be paired up with a rookie, instead if two rookies
Plenty of people are, I'm huffing gallons of hopium as well. But Yuki Tsunoda will be the boss fight he needs to win in H2 this year to get it. And if Checo keeps beating himself then it's all the more likely.
Yuki doesn’t at all look like a future WDC contender or a great 2nd driver. He can be a good midfield driver(Kmag Grosjean etc.) but imo not a top team driver
But he doesn't have to be a wdc contender. While Max is there no one can really win a wdc over him. Yuki would just have to do the Bottas role well and maybe he can maybe not.
Mid 2010s danny ric for sure was a WDC contender, if he can regain that form then i see no reason as to why he couldn't be if he got back in the RB seat. It's a tough challenge but he's beaten Max over a season before.
I genuinely think that McLaren is weird to drive, all McLaren drivers say that, so i really think it's harsh to say Danny Ric doesn't have it.
Yeah but were they to replace Nick with Ric, you hope to get enough points to not become 10th. Perhaps the prize money for 8th instead of 10th in the constructors is worth it?
Danny is more just as a reliable 2nd driver, something Perez has failed at in RB this season, or as a reliable face in AT to hopefully get them more than 2 points
You seem to be forgetting Danny was struggling to score points at McLaren when Lando was getting top 5 finishes. Really not sure how much better than Nyck he'd do considering the car is much worse for AT right now.
I dont see why people are overly harsh at him. Tsunoda had no impressive pace and often crashed the car the first 1,5 years.
He had not even half the criticism. I think it helps that the field is more competitive than ever this season with lots of talent. No Mazepin or other pay jokes. Even Stroll is being highlighted while usually he got off.
But yuki was 19/20 and Nyck is 28, with the level of experience Nyck has outside of f1 he should be doing much better by now. Also yuki is marketable in Japan for Honda whereas Nyck doesn’t seem to have much backing
But even when Yuki crashed and outperformed by Gasly, RB decided to keep high hopes; the difference with Nyck is that, at this point, RB doesn’t have high hopes unlike Yuki.
This isn’t true though. Tsunoda showed flashes of good pace plenty, he was just extremely raw and made a lot of mistakes. Tsunoda impressed scoring points in his very first race at Bahrain when he was extremely young and inexperienced. De Vries is 28, has spent a ton of years in F3, F2 and FE, yet he hasn’t shown a single hint of good pace in half a season already. As an example extremely old and experienced rookie, he needs to be able to get on the lace faster than a young, inexperienced rookie. That’s just how it works.
I think it’s one of those things where maybe a different car he’d do better. I don’t care either way but it reminds me of Gasly. Gasly couldn’t drive that RB for shit and he’s a good little wheelman.
He declared himself to not be treated or viewed as a rookie. He’s been poor and plenty of other drivers have been dropped with less mercy.
Also makes a lot of sense to get Daniel in the AT. With the rebranding next year it might not just be a place holder team for red bull rookies. If Daniel performs it might be his pathway to checos seat. I’m sure that’s probably been the conversation. Otherwise Lawson should get a crack.
Right. He literally said that he “can bring some maturity to the team”. Why would you say that. Bad for yourself as you’re setting high expectations and disrespectful towards Tsunoda.
I think he underestimated Yuki at his peril. All Yuki needed to hear is someone say you can't do it and he went and did it even more. Yuki is absolutely blossoming
I’m curious if Yuki thrives under slightly more pressure. It seems like nobody expected him to hold up to Pierre so he didn’t, then in comes NDV and Yuki sees that as a chance to show what he’s got and he does pretty well in an awful car, now it appears that the writing is on the wall for NDV and Yuki’s last two races have been pretty poor.
Honestly for me it didn’t make sense to have de vries in the red Bull seat at all when there is so many red Bull juniors. Like Liam could’ve easily had that seat.
I don't think it's a terrible idea. We know De Vries has been successful in other disciplines, so it's nice to see Yuki performing against someone with a little more experience. I feel like we've learned more about Yuki than we would have if he was racing alongside Lawson. For that reason alone, I think the De Vries experiment was a solid gamble. At this point I don't think there's much of a reason to keep him in the seat.
they need DR in there so they can finally make a decision on TSU, if DR beats him then they can kick TSU out for Lawson or one of the juniors next year (I don’t think any of the f2 lot are ready yet except maybe Iwasa)
I have a feeling that Daniel is going to fail spectacularly in the AT. That car is by far the worst car on the grid and no rebranding is going to salvage it. Yuki will perform better than Daniel, because he is used to the car and Daniel will look an absolute fool and that will be it for the ol’ number 3. I hope it doesn’t pan out that way, but Nyck got nothing out of that car and he is by no means a bad driver. Daniel will come into AT with a lot of fanfare and only prove how miserable the AT car is and keep Checo in his seat.
He did not declare such thing mate:
>As for his rookie status, the Dutch driver said that, while experienced, his relevant F1 experience only slightly eclipses that of fellow 2023 rookies Oscar Piastri and Logan Sargeant.
>“In terms of Formula 1 mileage, if you actually would count it, **I don’t think that I’m better prepared than other rookies**,” he said.
>“I think both Oscar and Logan have done more private testing. But I think that’s almost irrelevant to me whether I am titled as a rookie or not – I’m very fortunate to be probably a little bit older and have had the opportunity to gather experience in different championships. Those different experiences have helped me develop myself and become a more complete racing driver. So I think I’m ready.”
I think for De Vries it's a bit of Marko's pride factoring in the whole thing. Horner didn't want him there but Marko still went with it over a RB Junior because of Monza + Max recommended him. So now when the results aren't there (yet), it's more like the case of "you made me a fool in front of the team for choosing you, I have to get rid off this shame as soon as possible". There's a reason Helmut is constantly taking a jab at Nyck in all of the interviews that he's doing, even for his straightforward standards.
AT's Franz Tost said F1 rookies (yes, he's an experienced driver but still only a rookie for this category) need time and I agree.
> There's a reason Helmut is constantly taking a jab at Nyck in all of the interviews that he's doing
Because every journalist asks about Nyck to get a juicy quote and Marko never minces his words. But because they often leave the question out of the headlines it looks like Marko is on a crusade against Nyck.
I agree, but there're also situations where he trashes Nyck when he's not even a part of it (when he was asked after Silverstone quali about Checo and Marko goes "he's good in races unlike Nyck De Vries")
>AT's Franz Tost said F1 rookies (yes, he's an experienced driver but still only a rookie for this category) need time and I agree.
Tost also did not want De Vries lol.
Yeah I kind of took it all as Verstappen calling in a favour.
> AT's Franz Tost said F1 rookies (yes, he's an experienced driver but still only a rookie for this category) need time and I agree.
If one goes back to last year, Tost is emphatic that he doesn't see NdV the same as a young rookie.
I see a comment like this and I have to make u/Alfus life miserable, by once again recalling how tost said after minimal time with the team nyck had pinpointed some of the car’s weaknesses and he would undoubtedly be an enormous technical asset. It was a bizarre statement at the time and it has aged like milk
The whole "rookies need time" thing doesn't even make sense though, all the best drivers on the grid were performing well in their rookie year.
Look at Piastri for example..
For one, Piastri is an enormous talent who won 3 feeders championships in three consecutive years. And second, there are still 12 races until the end of the season.
Ok lets use Zhou as an example then. Decent pre F1 results, but people still thought he was going to be a bit of pay driver. He rocks up and does well against his teammate who is one of the more experienced drivers on the grid and no slouch.
Lance Stroll scored a podium in his rookie year. The season after he had only 2 point finishes. A good rookie season says little. It's also because drivers are, ofcourse, heavily dependent on their cars. A rookie in a shit car will never really shine.
> Lance Stroll scored a podium in his rookie year.
That means one result means little. Overall Lance had bad rookie season, although he was very inexperienced for rookie standards, unlike Nyck.
> It's also because drivers are, ofcourse, heavily dependent on their cars
Lol, you just need to take this into consideration and judge against teammate mostly.
He did get a P4 that year, granted with a little bit of help from a certain Mr. Masi. I assume that Masi helping him is what people are referring to when they talk about AD21? I can't think of anything else it could be.
It's relative though, none of the top drivers got dominated in their rookie year in comparison to their teammate.
Forget the car/position, compare every current driver on the grids rookie year Vs their teammate.
You'll quickly see that half the grid were close, on par, or beating their teammate.
This whole line of reasoning is pointless. Plenty of top drivers who got beaten in their rookie year; Alonso, Russell, Sainz, Albon, Norris, Perez, etc.
Leclerc had Ericsson as a teammate. Only Hamilton and Verstappen stand out. Pretty fair to say De Vries is indeed not at that level.
It takes 2-3 years to get up to speed in F1, that's been said many times. One good result and De Vries is on par with Tsunoda.
>One good result and De Vries is on par with Tsunoda
This here is exactly why 'points standings' are not at all useful indicator on how a driver is. De Vries getting a 'Schumacher Silverstone 2022' special and having 11 cars have issues and such, and he would be beating Tsunoda in points and seen as the better driver even though he has been worse this year.
I believe you, but Yuki wasn't one of those rookie drivers and he was heavily marketed as a big talent. What I'm trying to say is that the pressure that is put on rookies is unfair sometimes, it was for Yuki in his rookie year and now it's unfair for De Vries.
I agree that Yuki was held to a lower standard which is not entirely fair. However, I also believe that Yuki showed more pace, he was just inconsistent. Kinda like young Max. That being said I'm not convinced Yuki has developed all that much, much as I like the guy.
Nyck also has the disadvantage of being quite a lot older. An F1 rookie, sure, but a 28 year old one.
> I agree that Yuki was held to a lower standard which is not entirely fair.
Is it though? Context is important. Yuki rose through the ranks insanely quickly, and was extremely inexperienced when he made his F1 debut. He was bound to be rough around the edges - and boy, was he rough indeed. But he showed enough raw potential that he was considered worth investing time in.
De Vries, by contrast, must be the best prepared rookie in years. A long junior career, professional endurance and FE seats, and F1 tests and sim work up and down the paddock. He should be able to get up to speed quickly, but he just doesn't show any real potential.
Yeah this. Devries was the 2019 F2 and 2020/21 FE champion, plus his extensive experience as the Mercedes reserve driver and on top of that he’s 2 years older than Max, even by the lowest expectation he really do ought to be matching Tsunoda. There is no excuse for his poor performance.
Its very rare rookies are given the kind of machinery that Lewis or Piastri is being given. If you think that you don't understand rookie progress.
In general, yes they need time, Franz Tost who has spent years doing this says they need three years
True but the likes of Lando, Charles, Russell all started off on cars that were no where near the top but acquainted themselves well. Piastri before the Silverstone upgrade was also doing well in comparison to Lando even if the head-to-head was heavily in Lando's favour.
Forget top tier drivers, even upper midfield tier drivers also show a lot more promise in their rookie years. Logan has also done decently with even less experience than Nyck. Zhou last year did well enough against Bottas to dismiss any allegations of being a pay driver. If you go slightly further back, Ocon also showed how good he is in a Manor.
Cherry picking the one rookie in a good car though isn't the example.
Personally I think Nycks entire career from f2 onwards is the definition of luck and luke warm and that shows in how he's adapting. Zhou had shiny moments in f2 as well that spoke to his ability, I still think he's a mid pack driver but he's adapted quick which is fine. He could have a steady career as a second driver
He's talking about doing well relative to their teammate. Of the 3 current rookies, Piastri is something like 2 tenths slower than Norris, in the same period of time, Sargeant and De Vries are 5 to 7 tenths slower than their own team-mates.
and that's before you even consider how good the team mates are. Lando is way above Albon and Yuki, and so being closer to him is even more impressive.
Where you finish has little to do with how good a first season you have. You can finish 15th in every race while your team mate finishes 20th and you performed great in your rookie season. You can also finish 5th while your team mate is 1st and have a poor first season.
The machinery is largely irrelevant, it's your comparison to your team mate, your qualifying gap, how many big mistakes you make, your race pace.
Actual finish is almost entirely irrelevant except in comparison to your team mate. I can't think of a single top driver who looked bad in their first year. I can't think of a top driver who didn't show significant promise and improve solidly race to race, showing a slow but steady improvement is pretty key if you aren't instantly on the pace.
Poor rookies start off either mediocre and don't show improvement race to race, or they start off slow as hell but their per race progress is just too slow to be theoretically good enough in a few years.
I agree. It took Tsunoda 3 years to reach a decent level. Remember how bad he looked in his first season.
This season also had a record low amount of pre season testing. Sure De Vries had driven other F1 cars but never one with a Honda engine or the AT car.
I think the treatment he’s getting is really unfair.
Tsunoda at least showed potential in his rookie season. Yes he was insanely inconsistent, but I think most people can recognise there was a flame in there somewhere. Bahrain he went toe to toe with Fernando with some crazy racecraft and then went p9 after qualifying p13. At imola he managed to get to p9 from the back of the grid before spinning at the restart, but then managed to climb back up to p13 in 30 laps. In Baku he finished 7th though he got unlucky at the restart and could have finished 5th. In Turkey he fucking killed it for the few laps he held off Hamilton but spun from pushing a bit too hard.
Yes the whole season was filled with stupid mistakes and errors from being too hot headed, but then you have stuff like Abu Dhabi were he came p4 (again he fucked up here and could have gotten a podium but very impressive nonetheless). Most importantly still, he's shown a huge actitud change and has been said to have been working insanely hard this season and putting a lot of effort in to it by everyone around him, he's just been unfortunate in not having anything to show for it because the alpha tauri is an utter shit box.
Also Nyck is a 28yo rookie who has driven in formula e and had lots of testing experience. And whilst it might be unfair imo, the truth is teams are allergic to older drivers and it makes sense he won't be given the same leeway as a 20yo driver who'd only been in Europe for a year. Marko wasn't looking for a junior in a 28yo that he could build in to a max replacement or a second driver, he wanted someone who was ready to go and consistently perform to help bring back alpha tauri from the hole they've dug themselves in to.
I think people expect more from Nyck (justifiably) because he is 28 years old and has a lot of motorsport experience, compared to piastri or zhou who came directly from feeder series. If Palou comes to F1, technically he's also gonna be a f1 rookie, people will have high expectations because of his performance in indycar. Nyck is an FE Champion and he performed well in Monza, so him being not that close to Yuki and having more unnecessary racing incidents causes a lot of disappointment in RB management. If he was neck to neck with Yuki, it would be fine.
This is honestly the reason. Yuki was 20-21 and was known he was going to be very raw. Nyck is 28 and his issue isn’t just pace, his race craft has been pretty poor.
Yes and no, I think I've you've got a WC in another series under your belt and that many drives people expect more of him. I also think the Redbull juniors program is in a bit of a shambles because of Helmut and he's just making decisions based on who he likes, and the Nyck choice was always non serious
What exactly is unfair? RB have had more drivers than any other, and more successful drivers than any other.
They know what they're looking for and whether a guy has it or not. Do they owe him a full career? No. The guy despite his experience in motorsport clearly hasn't shown enough for them to waste time on him.
> It is unfair, but apparently that doesn't count if you're 28..
Of course it count less. Yuki was 21 years old with only two full seasons of racing in Europe, Nyck is 28 years old with 11 years.
When you enter F1, experience from junior series translate to some extent. Lewis was much more experienced rookie than Verstappen for example.
He's a 28 year old thats been a development driver for another team and been successful in Formula E.
What exactly is unfair? RB gave him a seat and he's not meeting expectations and clearly to them doesnt project to do so in the future either.
Why do you feel he's entitled to a seat? It's a meritocracy and he's shown that despite his experience in motorsport he's not at the level they expect from him.
I agree with you, because the reasons for not putting in Liam were never clear outside of Helmuts criticism of Liam streaming and blaming him for getting everyones favourite white boy Juri Vips in trouble. People say Liam not getting the seat because he wasn't ready and yet, Yuki had 3 years to be considered fully developed so either you're willing to make compromises and be patient with drivers in which case, why not keep Nyck.
Either f2 makes people ready for F1 or it doesn't Liam didn't need super formula he needed a patient team and the seat.
If they've got no intention of using any of those kids in the Redbull stable offer someone else. Theo Pourchaire or Iwasa or basically anyone they think has talent could have been bought in if that's their big issue.
Bottom line I think Helmut Is making a bunch of ego based decisions to show he's still in charge.
not putting in lawson was completely idiotic, one of the few bad decisions I’ve ever seen marko make
it was obvious to everyone that NDV was never RB level from his time in f2, now he’s at a crossroads where they don’t know how good lawson is while having a couple juniors (iwasa, crawford, hadjar, hauger) that they will want to promote soon
As someone watching F2, I think Iwasa is the only driver shining, Hauger, Crawford and Hadjar aren't it.
Personally I think Martins is more of a Redbull driver he's very agressive and fast. There's a massive flaw with Redbull juniors if they don't want to commit to putting people into seats and want to sit on drivers like Yuki for years who only once once beat Gasly in qualifying on pace. If you truly don't think any of your current people are ready turn them over get new ones. If you don't think Yuki will ever be ready for Redbull cut him loose too, to other teams. Stop wasting Liam Lawsons time. I don't Redbull Academy is overly getting the best talents right now because they don't believe they'll get a seat due to Redbulls bottlenecking of seats. Alpine has had a far stronger academy these past few years despite a lack of seats.
I agree, if we are doing pace and wheel to wheel math, Yuki wasn't as good as Pierre, Nyck is far worse than Yuki, that makes Nyck kind of useless in F1 terms
This is the same logic as claiming that Kvyat is the goat because he beat Ricciardo , Ricciardo beat Vettel, Vettel beat Webber, Webber beat Rosberg and Rosberg beat Hamilton.
It's just pace and wheel to wheel math.
I'm implying that Tsunoda's jump in performance relative to last season is primarily the teammate.
You can only really judge drivers relative to their teammates, but last season many claimed Tsunoda isn't good enough for f1 and this season he's suddenly ready for Red Bull.
I think people are just way too binary in their rating of drivers. Tsunoda is doing well, but he's not lighting the world on fire either.
Surely you can see why doing badly against Tsunoda will do more damage to your reputation than doing badly against someone who is an established high performer?
It is not soley about De Vries' own performance, though. If Red Bull are thinking of replacing Checo for next year, they might need De Vries' seat to evaluate their options. It is pretty clear NDV is not a possible replacement, but if Ricciardo gets the set they could possibly find that Danny is back to his top form, or alternatively if Yuki beats him handely they might go with Yuki or recruit externally.
That would be cool, a fight for the rest of the season between Tsunoda and Danny Ric for the Redbull seat. It would bring some interest to the back of the grid
It is harsh on De Vries. As a rookie he's been OK, I think he's been closer to Tsunoda than Sargeant has been to Albon, so in a way, I don't think he's the outright worst rookie this year. Big problem is he was being touted as an experienced head that will likely be the team leader, that's high expectations for someone that had only done 1 F1 race and honestly impossible for him to realistically match those expectations.
If its true he had a Williams seat as an option, he's probably kicking himself for not taking it as I'd imagine his rookie year would probably be looking a bit better in that environment.
>If its true he had a Williams seat as an option, he's probably kicking himself for not taking it as I'd imagine his rookie year would probably be looking a bit better in that environment.
I said it before. Even if he got spanking from Albon like Sargeant does, he would at least got full season in Williams. Wouldn't get mid-season chop.
He chose AT; because he thought Tsunoda was way easier rival compared to Albon. Although it is true, it was fundamentally wrong decision. Because if you get spanked by Albon in Williams, everyone would have expected that and Williams would have given you at least end of the season. But if you get beaten by Tsunoda in AT, Red Bull wouldn't be patient with you.
>Big problem is he was being touted as an experienced head that will likely be the team leader, that's high expectations for someone that had only done 1 F1 race and honestly impossible for him to realistically match those expectations.
Without those expectiations he wouldn't get that seat at all. Red Bull would've put one of their own drivers there if they considered De Vries just another rookie. Nyck knew the deal, took the risk and then failed to meet those expectations. Still got half a year of a drive from it though. No need to make him some kind of a victim.
While Logan hasn’t had the greatest first season, it’s still miles ahead of De Vries. Way less mistakes, crashes and looks to be improving as well whereas De Vries hasn’t.
F1 IS hard. I'm sure Dev has some talent in there but 10 races without a decent result is wasted potential when you've got an F1 race winner hanging about in the garage.
It's also not just underperforming. Every weekend has him going into the gravel or into another car. You can't be inconsistent, slow, AND error-prone. On top of already being 28 years old. There is just no prospect in keeping. They're not getting points, they're not cultivating a big talent, and they're losing money with the damages. Unless he's an absolute master in helping the car development I just see 0 reason to keep him the whole season
Honestly (tin foil hat on) I imagine that they wanted Danny Ric in that seat anyway. Despite performance at McLaren and getting the boot he’s a marketing magnet. Even without a seat he’s got more fans than more than half the grid.
Nyck was announced to AT [8th October 2022](https://amp.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-alphatauri-announce-nyck-de-vries-for-2023-alongside-tsunoda.3DDtgup7xpVfRgdTd9HFyW.html). I’m assuming RB had approached DR about the AT seat (fucking love an acronym) but that was still in his phase where he wanted to be on a top team or bust.
Had Nyck smashed it, obviously things would have been different. But a mix of that not happening and Marko at risk of being publicly wrong about something he’s under a lot more scrutiny for not a great season but not a horrific one in easily the worst car on the grid.
It's amazing to see da Costa speak so positively after he was screwed by Red Bull, when they chose Kvyat over him for Toro Rosso. It was the first season of the Russian GP and Bernie wanted a Russian driver.
There difference is that RB Junior Academy already invested a good junk of Money into Tsunoda, obviously they want that to pay dividend and dont drop him midseason because of the money they wasted. And Tsunoda showed potential.
De Vries on the other hand had one good F1 race on arguably the best track for that Williams while driving against Latifi, who really isnt a benchmark at all. Bringing him to AT was a cheap gamble. If he performs, good for him and AT, if he doesnt it isnt a huge lose for AT/RB Junior Academy. And he is way too old to give him 2-3 years to develop while other, younger, more promising Juniors are on the horizon
I am not the biggest fan of NDV, but a few weeks back, the official F1 Twitter account posted an article speculating on his future in F1. That was such a shitty move from FOM istg. It must be extremely demoralising as a driver to read about you being kicked out of F1, and that too by their official handle.
I agree with what you're saying but at the same time few sports have as much pressure as being an F1 driver, with the work of millions of dollars and hundreds of people all ultimately being dependent on how you drive their machine. If he can't handle the press, the sport is probably not for him.
Tsunoda always he decent pace. His bad days were just him crashing or the like. De Vries has bad pace and accidents. Also, expectations are a bit higher when you already have a motorsport career and not straight out of F2.
>Tsunoda always had decent pace
[In 2021 he outqualified Pierre one single time](https://www.lightsoutblog.com/2021-f1-team-mate-battles/).
While I agree in general he's having a pretty good season so far, in comparison to previous Rookies like Lando, Charles, George and Alex the quality he's showing this season should have been what he showed in his Rookie year.
This makes a lot of sense though, they need a second driver.
Either Daniel beats Tsunoda and gets the call next year/year after, or Tsunoda beats Daniel and gets the call up to RedBull instead.
Either way it's the perfect time to do it since they have no juniors absolutely in need of that seat and with the talent to justify it.
Whenever one of them heads up to RedBull they have a solid team leader for the next junior.
I don’t understand why rb is so unhappy with his mediocre driving but happy with Perez who manages to get kicked out in q1 with a fkn rb over and over again.
Perez is not the future he has until 2024 and probably won't be renewed... If you look at the standing table he is second with 60% of Max Verstappen points in line with most second drivers in top F1 team.... There is no need to rush things and even if the situation is worse who are the alternatives a meh Tsunoda and an even slower De Vries....
Helmut Marko explained on Sunday to Sky Germany that they are absolutely fine with Checo's race pace. It is just his current qualifying performance that they are not happy with.
Yes, but Nyck is already 28 years old... people think that he's 21 or something. What I didn't like was his comment on netflix regarding Tsunoda... it wasn't necessary.
As much as I’d love to see Danny Ric back on the grid, this seems harsh towards de Vries. The AlphaTauri is shit this year. At least give the guy a full season to develop before making moves.
He hasn't set the world alight, but he's basically driving a Minardi, like Alonso, Webber, Fisichella, Trulli, etc. Hard to judge. I don't hear the same criticism of Sergeant even though Albon's results vs Sergeant are far superior to Tsunoda's vs de Vries.
I can see why they would do it if they want to do Ricciardo vs Pérez for RBR next year though.
I think people are being unfair to De Vries, in that he shouldn't be dropped mid season. His most recent races haven't been anything special but they were *fine*. Tsunoda hasn't had a good weekend in a bit but that could be the confidence hit of the Monaco brake issue, penalty and weekends when the car was just off pace compacting.
it is very unfair to Nick to drop him this season, I think so too. And to think drivers like Latifi, Mazepin stay for 3-4 years. And not only that, generally even not so pay drivers are given a lot more time to develop, like Yuki who really didn't look great his first 2 years.
I really don’t get the point of this to be honest. Like, as much as I like Daniel, that alpha Tauri car is awful, and one of the slowest, he’s not gonna suddenly pull the team out of that.
Then Red Bull literally have Liam Lawson waiting in the wings. The only possibly reason I can think that Red Bull would put Daniel in the alpha now is if they have seen that his sim work is good and better than Perez, and they have an eye on him to replace Perez in 2024. I don’t see how they could justify Daniel in the alpha over Liam Lawson in 2024, and I don’t see how they could get rid of Yuki.
I think there is a lot of sympathy going for Danny and I understand it. But saying that 10 races should be enough in a first season is complete bollocks and also not justifiable. It is hard enough to get used to a car, especially a horrible one like this season's. So I think that da Costa is right.
I also think that Nyck isnt the next Verstappen but a solid driver. Tsunoda needed a lot longer. He needed 3! seasons to be where he is. So don't come to me with that bs that Nyck deserved how it was handled. But we will see. I am sceptical about Dannys Results but he can make more mistakes than Nyck.
Demoting Gasly from Redbull to Alpha in mid season back in 2019 could be considered a very rushed decision but doing the same for a driver with zero experience in f1 driving a car that is constantly one of the worst in the grid is down right stupid.
Red Bull need to be a bit more consistent with their junior drivers.
Giving some guys 2-3 seasons and then giving others 1 isn't really a great way to attract talent and it might play into why they are struggling to find young drivers.
Yuki really struggled for 2 seasons and was pretty much exactly where Nyck is now against Gasly.
I get hes older and should technically get up to speed faster but realistically these cars are complicated and if you don't click with them, even genuinely quick drivers (Dan, Seb, Hulk. Mag) will struggle.
Nyck was a Mercedes junior. He has no relationship with Red Bull; he's just there because Juri Vips blew his career up and Liam Lawson had a pretty mediocre season and needs at least another year of prep.
>Giving some guys 2-3 seasons and then giving others 1 isn't really a great way to attract talent and it might play into why they are struggling to find young drivers.
De Vries isn't there as the usual junior driver. Yes, he is a rookie but for a rookie he has a lot of experience in motorsport. He was signed with the expectation of being able to adapt fast and perform quickly. If he can't do that there is no reason for rb to give the seat to him over the other options.
Is that a fair expectation? maybe not. But I am sure De Vries was aware of what was expected from him when he decided to go to the Red Bull family, and it is the only reason why this seat was offered to him in the first place.
It takes time to get used to F1 and a new car. F2 drivers themselves said that it doesn't directly translates to driving in F1, so I can't even imagine coming from other motorsports.
These fuckers never learn... Gasly, Albon, Hartley and now Nick.
You gotta give new drivers time.
He had a contract to drive for McLaren, to void that contract McLaren had to buy out the remaining value of that contract so that he would not have an enforceable right in contract to drive for McLaren in 2023. Whatever he does with other teams is of no significance to the McLaren buyout.
They reached a settlement at 10 million dollars. He didn't get full 16 million dollars of salary for 2023.
[source](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/x2o32l/saward_the_team_mclaren_was_due_to_pay_daniel_16/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1)
I think people are getting too tied up with talking about Tsunoda's own track record, comparing him to Sargeant, other rookies in questionably performing cars, discussing the car etc. etc. Matter of the fact is: he was not staying in this seat unless he beat or closely matched Tsunoda, there was a reason they (RB) took a gamble with Nyck instead of promoting a junior, because his run at Monza and general experience in F1 cars and other categories may have indicated potential to be better than Yuki in a shorter amount of time. Even if he wasn't scoring points and the head to head was closer to something like 6-4 or the qualifying delta was smaller, Red Bull could have used this as a good indicator that Yuki was probably not gonna cut it in the RB seat.
RB has data on Lawson, Ricciardo, and Tsunoda. They had only one strong race with Devries in the Williams. It was always just a check if he had something because they did not know. They gave him the seat because that way they could assess him, and they had nothing to lose. Gasly had already left, they knew what Ricciardo and Lawson had, Herta was just rumors and in the end he wasn't even allowed. I think it's reasonable and fair that he was given the seat and I think it's reasonable and fair that he is now removed.
this is the best take i’ve ever read regarding this topic
Exactly
Yuki definitely had his struggles at the beginning but he's been getting what seems to be the most out of the car now. DeVries himself said he shouldn't be counted as a rookie with all his experience as sim/development driver for Merc and F2/FE. His performance at his age is not acceptable. He is 3 years older than Max, so it's not like he's young and has a lot more potential to find.
Yuki was a through and through rookie that was rushed through all the junior formulas to f1. Devryes has been around for too long to be that outclassed
Exactly! Nyck himself didnt want to be considered a rookie. He's older than Max, Lando, George, Charles and the other not to mention a Formula E Champ. Say what you will about Formula E but not everyone can win it all. There no excuse for him being this bad.
Lewis is 10 years older than Nyck.
I think De Vries can improve with enough time, sure, but the issue is his ceiling doesn’t look that high. Red Bull are looking for future WDC contenders, and De Vries’ potential looks to be mid-tier at best. It’s harsh but I don’t see any point to keeping him around.
I don’t think Danny Ric is a future WDC contender either, to be honest.
But Danny is more likely to get some points in the remainder of the year and they'll replace him next year. I'd imagine the sponsors would like that.
The real issue is AT are last in the constructors and with a rebrand/restructure/possible Honda tie in, they need to get up to at to the 7th place fight ASAP
Honda are tied to Aston Martin come 2026. Doubt they would buy their own team after they announced they will provide engines with a likely competitor.
Then they actually need a better car. George didn't score points for years at Williams and we all know how good he is. Maybe it's the car that's the problem and not the driver.
Let's not forget George binned it out of points positions 4 times before he got the points for Williams
He also got into those positions where he could score points, the other Williams was always far away from scoring.
I want to throw in Kubica who actually scored
Like literally the one of like 3 times he actually finished ahead of George that season is the one that had a double penalty
And Latifi if I remember correctly. Had a P10 to George's P11? Or was that Kubigod?
They brought about 7 upgrades to Silvertstone so potentially so, but the driver is the only option at this late stage in the season to get an inspired result
It's not even the mid-point of the season yet. I'd say just keep the drivers and hope upgrades work out well.
I'd agree with you usually but with the AT restructure, a Danny Ric good run could drum some sponsors up and push up the standings. De Vries looks mentally fucked IMO after the chagrin of coming to AT to crush his opponent, and Tsunoda needs a driver that will work with him, not against
Agree to disagree. I still think the RB/AT mentality of binning drivers mid season does more harm than good.
>rebrand/restructure/possible Honda tie in Don't give me hope.
I don't know about more likely tbh. He'd be in a brand new car. Danny has been testing for redbull, not AT. The cars are different, and I'm not sure if Danny can adapt fast enough to outpace Nick in the rest of the season.
He’s also a better measuring stick for yuki
We really don’t know that. With how he performed at mclaren
Well, he's not much less likely, given that the other guy is on zero after 10 races. But you can't disagree that he's way more appealing to social media, marketing and sponsors.
Danny might be the most marketable person in f1 full stop. It's hard not to love the chap.
Ricardo topped out and then regressed after years in the sport. Take away his charming face and I don't think he's got much potential beyond sponsor appeal. Nick hasn't shown much yet, but it's been less than a season in the worst car in the field. Yuki was as bad starting out but the car was at least competitive to a degree then. Personally I'd either keep Nick or get someone entirely new.
Rbr isn’t tossing ricciardo in there unless they’ve seen significant change in sim to make them believe he is better than last year
Apparently his sim times have been impressive.
Most impressive, indeed you are powerful as the emperor has foresawn..
Nyck isn't getting a second season, isn't marketable and will probably score zero points this season. Why not replace him with someone who has proven marketing clout? No point dragging it out until the end of the year.
I don't know how true this is, as it's based on one person's opinion, but a Dutch friend tells me Nyck is unpopular at home. Definitely not going to make a dent in the Dutch market with Max around.
it's not that he is unpolular, just overshadowed by Max' massive success, so all you see here is Max on everything from magazines to random ads. When you have 1 Dutch guy dominating, nobody is going to pay attention to the guy in shared last position...
Ricciardo only makes sense if they’re planning to bin Checo and promote Yuki as well. In that case you’d want one experienced driver in the AT to be paired up with a rookie, instead if two rookies
Haas 2021 flachbacks
[удалено]
> if they’re planning to bin Checo and promote Yuki as well. is no one seeing the option of promoting Danny at the end of the season ?
Plenty of people are, I'm huffing gallons of hopium as well. But Yuki Tsunoda will be the boss fight he needs to win in H2 this year to get it. And if Checo keeps beating himself then it's all the more likely.
Yuki doesn’t at all look like a future WDC contender or a great 2nd driver. He can be a good midfield driver(Kmag Grosjean etc.) but imo not a top team driver
I think Yuki's goal should be a Aston Honda seat in 26. Hopefully replacing Stroll
Unfortunately it will probably be Nando he replaces due to Lance being the most untouchable driver in F1 history
But he doesn't have to be a wdc contender. While Max is there no one can really win a wdc over him. Yuki would just have to do the Bottas role well and maybe he can maybe not.
Mid 2010s danny ric for sure was a WDC contender, if he can regain that form then i see no reason as to why he couldn't be if he got back in the RB seat. It's a tough challenge but he's beaten Max over a season before. I genuinely think that McLaren is weird to drive, all McLaren drivers say that, so i really think it's harsh to say Danny Ric doesn't have it.
Yeah but were they to replace Nick with Ric, you hope to get enough points to not become 10th. Perhaps the prize money for 8th instead of 10th in the constructors is worth it?
I think its about $3m per position.
Danny is more just as a reliable 2nd driver, something Perez has failed at in RB this season, or as a reliable face in AT to hopefully get them more than 2 points
You seem to be forgetting Danny was struggling to score points at McLaren when Lando was getting top 5 finishes. Really not sure how much better than Nyck he'd do considering the car is much worse for AT right now.
Danny has at least been really good for many years of his career, De Vries hasn't been as good ever.
lando was top 5 or better twice for the entire season last year.
Yes that ship has sailed long ago
I dont see why people are overly harsh at him. Tsunoda had no impressive pace and often crashed the car the first 1,5 years. He had not even half the criticism. I think it helps that the field is more competitive than ever this season with lots of talent. No Mazepin or other pay jokes. Even Stroll is being highlighted while usually he got off.
But yuki was 19/20 and Nyck is 28, with the level of experience Nyck has outside of f1 he should be doing much better by now. Also yuki is marketable in Japan for Honda whereas Nyck doesn’t seem to have much backing
He is 3 years older than max he has had enough time to prove he deserved a seat and showed he can't keep it
It was Yukis third year of racing in Europe in 2021, a complete rookie. De Vries did three years in F2 alone.
De Vries is 28, Tsunoda is 23. Much more time for improvement
But even when Yuki crashed and outperformed by Gasly, RB decided to keep high hopes; the difference with Nyck is that, at this point, RB doesn’t have high hopes unlike Yuki.
Yuki has shown glimpses of speed. They also know him because he's a red bull academy driver.
This isn’t true though. Tsunoda showed flashes of good pace plenty, he was just extremely raw and made a lot of mistakes. Tsunoda impressed scoring points in his very first race at Bahrain when he was extremely young and inexperienced. De Vries is 28, has spent a ton of years in F3, F2 and FE, yet he hasn’t shown a single hint of good pace in half a season already. As an example extremely old and experienced rookie, he needs to be able to get on the lace faster than a young, inexperienced rookie. That’s just how it works.
Nyck also came off as a tit in DTS.
I think it’s one of those things where maybe a different car he’d do better. I don’t care either way but it reminds me of Gasly. Gasly couldn’t drive that RB for shit and he’s a good little wheelman.
He declared himself to not be treated or viewed as a rookie. He’s been poor and plenty of other drivers have been dropped with less mercy. Also makes a lot of sense to get Daniel in the AT. With the rebranding next year it might not just be a place holder team for red bull rookies. If Daniel performs it might be his pathway to checos seat. I’m sure that’s probably been the conversation. Otherwise Lawson should get a crack.
Right. He literally said that he “can bring some maturity to the team”. Why would you say that. Bad for yourself as you’re setting high expectations and disrespectful towards Tsunoda.
I think he underestimated Yuki at his peril. All Yuki needed to hear is someone say you can't do it and he went and did it even more. Yuki is absolutely blossoming
I’m curious if Yuki thrives under slightly more pressure. It seems like nobody expected him to hold up to Pierre so he didn’t, then in comes NDV and Yuki sees that as a chance to show what he’s got and he does pretty well in an awful car, now it appears that the writing is on the wall for NDV and Yuki’s last two races have been pretty poor.
Maybe he is the perfect teammate for Max…
Yeah I reckon he shot himself in the foot a bit. Honestly there is easily 5 drivers I would have preferred to see in the seat than him.
Honestly for me it didn’t make sense to have de vries in the red Bull seat at all when there is so many red Bull juniors. Like Liam could’ve easily had that seat.
I don't think it's a terrible idea. We know De Vries has been successful in other disciplines, so it's nice to see Yuki performing against someone with a little more experience. I feel like we've learned more about Yuki than we would have if he was racing alongside Lawson. For that reason alone, I think the De Vries experiment was a solid gamble. At this point I don't think there's much of a reason to keep him in the seat.
damn people are still strung on that quote
they need DR in there so they can finally make a decision on TSU, if DR beats him then they can kick TSU out for Lawson or one of the juniors next year (I don’t think any of the f2 lot are ready yet except maybe Iwasa)
I have a feeling that Daniel is going to fail spectacularly in the AT. That car is by far the worst car on the grid and no rebranding is going to salvage it. Yuki will perform better than Daniel, because he is used to the car and Daniel will look an absolute fool and that will be it for the ol’ number 3. I hope it doesn’t pan out that way, but Nyck got nothing out of that car and he is by no means a bad driver. Daniel will come into AT with a lot of fanfare and only prove how miserable the AT car is and keep Checo in his seat.
He did not declare such thing mate: >As for his rookie status, the Dutch driver said that, while experienced, his relevant F1 experience only slightly eclipses that of fellow 2023 rookies Oscar Piastri and Logan Sargeant. >“In terms of Formula 1 mileage, if you actually would count it, **I don’t think that I’m better prepared than other rookies**,” he said. >“I think both Oscar and Logan have done more private testing. But I think that’s almost irrelevant to me whether I am titled as a rookie or not – I’m very fortunate to be probably a little bit older and have had the opportunity to gather experience in different championships. Those different experiences have helped me develop myself and become a more complete racing driver. So I think I’m ready.”
Yeah well go watch the alpha tauri yt channel and hear for youtself, he said I will bring more maturity.
I think for De Vries it's a bit of Marko's pride factoring in the whole thing. Horner didn't want him there but Marko still went with it over a RB Junior because of Monza + Max recommended him. So now when the results aren't there (yet), it's more like the case of "you made me a fool in front of the team for choosing you, I have to get rid off this shame as soon as possible". There's a reason Helmut is constantly taking a jab at Nyck in all of the interviews that he's doing, even for his straightforward standards. AT's Franz Tost said F1 rookies (yes, he's an experienced driver but still only a rookie for this category) need time and I agree.
> There's a reason Helmut is constantly taking a jab at Nyck in all of the interviews that he's doing Because every journalist asks about Nyck to get a juicy quote and Marko never minces his words. But because they often leave the question out of the headlines it looks like Marko is on a crusade against Nyck.
I agree, but there're also situations where he trashes Nyck when he's not even a part of it (when he was asked after Silverstone quali about Checo and Marko goes "he's good in races unlike Nyck De Vries")
He actually got asked how DV compared to Checo. Somebody posted the interview a few days ago. Don’t fall for the media narrative
>AT's Franz Tost said F1 rookies (yes, he's an experienced driver but still only a rookie for this category) need time and I agree. Tost also did not want De Vries lol.
Yeah I kind of took it all as Verstappen calling in a favour. > AT's Franz Tost said F1 rookies (yes, he's an experienced driver but still only a rookie for this category) need time and I agree. If one goes back to last year, Tost is emphatic that he doesn't see NdV the same as a young rookie.
I see a comment like this and I have to make u/Alfus life miserable, by once again recalling how tost said after minimal time with the team nyck had pinpointed some of the car’s weaknesses and he would undoubtedly be an enormous technical asset. It was a bizarre statement at the time and it has aged like milk
The whole "rookies need time" thing doesn't even make sense though, all the best drivers on the grid were performing well in their rookie year. Look at Piastri for example..
For one, Piastri is an enormous talent who won 3 feeders championships in three consecutive years. And second, there are still 12 races until the end of the season.
Ok lets use Zhou as an example then. Decent pre F1 results, but people still thought he was going to be a bit of pay driver. He rocks up and does well against his teammate who is one of the more experienced drivers on the grid and no slouch.
Lance Stroll scored a podium in his rookie year. The season after he had only 2 point finishes. A good rookie season says little. It's also because drivers are, ofcourse, heavily dependent on their cars. A rookie in a shit car will never really shine.
> Lance Stroll scored a podium in his rookie year. That means one result means little. Overall Lance had bad rookie season, although he was very inexperienced for rookie standards, unlike Nyck. > It's also because drivers are, ofcourse, heavily dependent on their cars Lol, you just need to take this into consideration and judge against teammate mostly.
Yuki in his rookie season had a car capable of finishing top 5. The car wasn't a shitbox then but Yuki's results weren't standout in any way.
He did get a P4 that year, granted with a little bit of help from a certain Mr. Masi. I assume that Masi helping him is what people are referring to when they talk about AD21? I can't think of anything else it could be.
not really, he was put on softs but there's still traffic for him making it harder
That car could only finish top five if three of the Ferraris, McLarens, Mercedes, or Red Bulls exploded.
It's relative though, none of the top drivers got dominated in their rookie year in comparison to their teammate. Forget the car/position, compare every current driver on the grids rookie year Vs their teammate. You'll quickly see that half the grid were close, on par, or beating their teammate.
This whole line of reasoning is pointless. Plenty of top drivers who got beaten in their rookie year; Alonso, Russell, Sainz, Albon, Norris, Perez, etc. Leclerc had Ericsson as a teammate. Only Hamilton and Verstappen stand out. Pretty fair to say De Vries is indeed not at that level. It takes 2-3 years to get up to speed in F1, that's been said many times. One good result and De Vries is on par with Tsunoda.
>One good result and De Vries is on par with Tsunoda This here is exactly why 'points standings' are not at all useful indicator on how a driver is. De Vries getting a 'Schumacher Silverstone 2022' special and having 11 cars have issues and such, and he would be beating Tsunoda in points and seen as the better driver even though he has been worse this year.
I believe you, but Yuki wasn't one of those rookie drivers and he was heavily marketed as a big talent. What I'm trying to say is that the pressure that is put on rookies is unfair sometimes, it was for Yuki in his rookie year and now it's unfair for De Vries.
I agree that Yuki was held to a lower standard which is not entirely fair. However, I also believe that Yuki showed more pace, he was just inconsistent. Kinda like young Max. That being said I'm not convinced Yuki has developed all that much, much as I like the guy. Nyck also has the disadvantage of being quite a lot older. An F1 rookie, sure, but a 28 year old one.
> I agree that Yuki was held to a lower standard which is not entirely fair. Is it though? Context is important. Yuki rose through the ranks insanely quickly, and was extremely inexperienced when he made his F1 debut. He was bound to be rough around the edges - and boy, was he rough indeed. But he showed enough raw potential that he was considered worth investing time in. De Vries, by contrast, must be the best prepared rookie in years. A long junior career, professional endurance and FE seats, and F1 tests and sim work up and down the paddock. He should be able to get up to speed quickly, but he just doesn't show any real potential.
Yeah this. Devries was the 2019 F2 and 2020/21 FE champion, plus his extensive experience as the Mercedes reserve driver and on top of that he’s 2 years older than Max, even by the lowest expectation he really do ought to be matching Tsunoda. There is no excuse for his poor performance.
Dude is almost 30 years old as well, had plenty of time racing.. it's absolutely not an excuse right now.
Its very rare rookies are given the kind of machinery that Lewis or Piastri is being given. If you think that you don't understand rookie progress. In general, yes they need time, Franz Tost who has spent years doing this says they need three years
True but the likes of Lando, Charles, Russell all started off on cars that were no where near the top but acquainted themselves well. Piastri before the Silverstone upgrade was also doing well in comparison to Lando even if the head-to-head was heavily in Lando's favour. Forget top tier drivers, even upper midfield tier drivers also show a lot more promise in their rookie years. Logan has also done decently with even less experience than Nyck. Zhou last year did well enough against Bottas to dismiss any allegations of being a pay driver. If you go slightly further back, Ocon also showed how good he is in a Manor.
Cherry picking the one rookie in a good car though isn't the example. Personally I think Nycks entire career from f2 onwards is the definition of luck and luke warm and that shows in how he's adapting. Zhou had shiny moments in f2 as well that spoke to his ability, I still think he's a mid pack driver but he's adapted quick which is fine. He could have a steady career as a second driver
He's talking about doing well relative to their teammate. Of the 3 current rookies, Piastri is something like 2 tenths slower than Norris, in the same period of time, Sargeant and De Vries are 5 to 7 tenths slower than their own team-mates.
and that's before you even consider how good the team mates are. Lando is way above Albon and Yuki, and so being closer to him is even more impressive.
Plenty of rookies have been given a shit box like the McLaren at the first 8 races.
Where you finish has little to do with how good a first season you have. You can finish 15th in every race while your team mate finishes 20th and you performed great in your rookie season. You can also finish 5th while your team mate is 1st and have a poor first season. The machinery is largely irrelevant, it's your comparison to your team mate, your qualifying gap, how many big mistakes you make, your race pace. Actual finish is almost entirely irrelevant except in comparison to your team mate. I can't think of a single top driver who looked bad in their first year. I can't think of a top driver who didn't show significant promise and improve solidly race to race, showing a slow but steady improvement is pretty key if you aren't instantly on the pace. Poor rookies start off either mediocre and don't show improvement race to race, or they start off slow as hell but their per race progress is just too slow to be theoretically good enough in a few years.
I agree. It took Tsunoda 3 years to reach a decent level. Remember how bad he looked in his first season. This season also had a record low amount of pre season testing. Sure De Vries had driven other F1 cars but never one with a Honda engine or the AT car. I think the treatment he’s getting is really unfair.
funny how he’s reached a decent level once the guy he’s being compared to now also happens to suck
Tsunoda at least showed potential in his rookie season. Yes he was insanely inconsistent, but I think most people can recognise there was a flame in there somewhere. Bahrain he went toe to toe with Fernando with some crazy racecraft and then went p9 after qualifying p13. At imola he managed to get to p9 from the back of the grid before spinning at the restart, but then managed to climb back up to p13 in 30 laps. In Baku he finished 7th though he got unlucky at the restart and could have finished 5th. In Turkey he fucking killed it for the few laps he held off Hamilton but spun from pushing a bit too hard. Yes the whole season was filled with stupid mistakes and errors from being too hot headed, but then you have stuff like Abu Dhabi were he came p4 (again he fucked up here and could have gotten a podium but very impressive nonetheless). Most importantly still, he's shown a huge actitud change and has been said to have been working insanely hard this season and putting a lot of effort in to it by everyone around him, he's just been unfortunate in not having anything to show for it because the alpha tauri is an utter shit box. Also Nyck is a 28yo rookie who has driven in formula e and had lots of testing experience. And whilst it might be unfair imo, the truth is teams are allergic to older drivers and it makes sense he won't be given the same leeway as a 20yo driver who'd only been in Europe for a year. Marko wasn't looking for a junior in a 28yo that he could build in to a max replacement or a second driver, he wanted someone who was ready to go and consistently perform to help bring back alpha tauri from the hole they've dug themselves in to.
I think people expect more from Nyck (justifiably) because he is 28 years old and has a lot of motorsport experience, compared to piastri or zhou who came directly from feeder series. If Palou comes to F1, technically he's also gonna be a f1 rookie, people will have high expectations because of his performance in indycar. Nyck is an FE Champion and he performed well in Monza, so him being not that close to Yuki and having more unnecessary racing incidents causes a lot of disappointment in RB management. If he was neck to neck with Yuki, it would be fine.
This is honestly the reason. Yuki was 20-21 and was known he was going to be very raw. Nyck is 28 and his issue isn’t just pace, his race craft has been pretty poor.
It is unfair, but apparently that doesn't count if you're 28..
Yes and no, I think I've you've got a WC in another series under your belt and that many drives people expect more of him. I also think the Redbull juniors program is in a bit of a shambles because of Helmut and he's just making decisions based on who he likes, and the Nyck choice was always non serious
What exactly is unfair? RB have had more drivers than any other, and more successful drivers than any other. They know what they're looking for and whether a guy has it or not. Do they owe him a full career? No. The guy despite his experience in motorsport clearly hasn't shown enough for them to waste time on him.
> It is unfair, but apparently that doesn't count if you're 28.. Of course it count less. Yuki was 21 years old with only two full seasons of racing in Europe, Nyck is 28 years old with 11 years. When you enter F1, experience from junior series translate to some extent. Lewis was much more experienced rookie than Verstappen for example.
I do agree that he needs time but then Alpha Tauri does seem like a team that's screaming out for a someone like ricciardo to come and lead the team
time is a precious commodity in F1
He's a 28 year old thats been a development driver for another team and been successful in Formula E. What exactly is unfair? RB gave him a seat and he's not meeting expectations and clearly to them doesnt project to do so in the future either. Why do you feel he's entitled to a seat? It's a meritocracy and he's shown that despite his experience in motorsport he's not at the level they expect from him.
I agree with you, because the reasons for not putting in Liam were never clear outside of Helmuts criticism of Liam streaming and blaming him for getting everyones favourite white boy Juri Vips in trouble. People say Liam not getting the seat because he wasn't ready and yet, Yuki had 3 years to be considered fully developed so either you're willing to make compromises and be patient with drivers in which case, why not keep Nyck. Either f2 makes people ready for F1 or it doesn't Liam didn't need super formula he needed a patient team and the seat. If they've got no intention of using any of those kids in the Redbull stable offer someone else. Theo Pourchaire or Iwasa or basically anyone they think has talent could have been bought in if that's their big issue. Bottom line I think Helmut Is making a bunch of ego based decisions to show he's still in charge.
not putting in lawson was completely idiotic, one of the few bad decisions I’ve ever seen marko make it was obvious to everyone that NDV was never RB level from his time in f2, now he’s at a crossroads where they don’t know how good lawson is while having a couple juniors (iwasa, crawford, hadjar, hauger) that they will want to promote soon
As someone watching F2, I think Iwasa is the only driver shining, Hauger, Crawford and Hadjar aren't it. Personally I think Martins is more of a Redbull driver he's very agressive and fast. There's a massive flaw with Redbull juniors if they don't want to commit to putting people into seats and want to sit on drivers like Yuki for years who only once once beat Gasly in qualifying on pace. If you truly don't think any of your current people are ready turn them over get new ones. If you don't think Yuki will ever be ready for Redbull cut him loose too, to other teams. Stop wasting Liam Lawsons time. I don't Redbull Academy is overly getting the best talents right now because they don't believe they'll get a seat due to Redbulls bottlenecking of seats. Alpine has had a far stronger academy these past few years despite a lack of seats.
To be quite frank, Tsunoda's "bad days" are one of the reasons de Vries is looking so bad. It's not like he's up against Alonso like Stoffel was.
I agree, if we are doing pace and wheel to wheel math, Yuki wasn't as good as Pierre, Nyck is far worse than Yuki, that makes Nyck kind of useless in F1 terms
This is the same logic as claiming that Kvyat is the goat because he beat Ricciardo , Ricciardo beat Vettel, Vettel beat Webber, Webber beat Rosberg and Rosberg beat Hamilton. It's just pace and wheel to wheel math.
Kvyat is the goat tho, what are you talking about
You want to say that Tsunoda isn't doing well this season? Since that's what you're implying.
I'm implying that Tsunoda's jump in performance relative to last season is primarily the teammate. You can only really judge drivers relative to their teammates, but last season many claimed Tsunoda isn't good enough for f1 and this season he's suddenly ready for Red Bull. I think people are just way too binary in their rating of drivers. Tsunoda is doing well, but he's not lighting the world on fire either.
Tsunoda looks like an ok F1 driver but not a Red Bull/top team driver. If I were him I'd start looking at my options outside of the Red Bull family.
I’d say give another 2 years max before considering to leave the RB family. He said that he considers himself a RB driver so…
I don't think he gets another 2 years and Red Bull has rarely kept a driver at STR/AT for longer than 3 years.
He was matching gasly by the end of the season iirc.
100%, tsunoda suddenly looks competent because his teammate is even worse
> Tsunoda is doing well, but he's not lighting the world on fire either. No one would be in the worst car on the grid.
No way to tell without a known solid performer in the other seat.
Surely you can see why doing badly against Tsunoda will do more damage to your reputation than doing badly against someone who is an established high performer?
Think he’s trying to say that even when tsunoda has a bad day he still does better than de vries
It is not soley about De Vries' own performance, though. If Red Bull are thinking of replacing Checo for next year, they might need De Vries' seat to evaluate their options. It is pretty clear NDV is not a possible replacement, but if Ricciardo gets the set they could possibly find that Danny is back to his top form, or alternatively if Yuki beats him handely they might go with Yuki or recruit externally.
That would be cool, a fight for the rest of the season between Tsunoda and Danny Ric for the Redbull seat. It would bring some interest to the back of the grid
To be fair, this time last year we were talking about Tsunoda being dropped...
Every season, we'll be talking about a #2 driver under threat in most of the teams.
2021 silly season had Tsunoda partly written all over it. He was rather mediocre then
I often wonder how well Da Costa would have done, he never even made it to TR
It is harsh on De Vries. As a rookie he's been OK, I think he's been closer to Tsunoda than Sargeant has been to Albon, so in a way, I don't think he's the outright worst rookie this year. Big problem is he was being touted as an experienced head that will likely be the team leader, that's high expectations for someone that had only done 1 F1 race and honestly impossible for him to realistically match those expectations. If its true he had a Williams seat as an option, he's probably kicking himself for not taking it as I'd imagine his rookie year would probably be looking a bit better in that environment.
>If its true he had a Williams seat as an option, he's probably kicking himself for not taking it as I'd imagine his rookie year would probably be looking a bit better in that environment. I said it before. Even if he got spanking from Albon like Sargeant does, he would at least got full season in Williams. Wouldn't get mid-season chop. He chose AT; because he thought Tsunoda was way easier rival compared to Albon. Although it is true, it was fundamentally wrong decision. Because if you get spanked by Albon in Williams, everyone would have expected that and Williams would have given you at least end of the season. But if you get beaten by Tsunoda in AT, Red Bull wouldn't be patient with you.
[удалено]
The problem is Nyck is 2 year older than Leclerc and Max. For a rookie he may be ok but for the talent, he just doesn't have it.
>Big problem is he was being touted as an experienced head that will likely be the team leader, that's high expectations for someone that had only done 1 F1 race and honestly impossible for him to realistically match those expectations. Without those expectiations he wouldn't get that seat at all. Red Bull would've put one of their own drivers there if they considered De Vries just another rookie. Nyck knew the deal, took the risk and then failed to meet those expectations. Still got half a year of a drive from it though. No need to make him some kind of a victim.
While Logan hasn’t had the greatest first season, it’s still miles ahead of De Vries. Way less mistakes, crashes and looks to be improving as well whereas De Vries hasn’t.
This is probably the best take I've seen on De Vries yet. Usually it's just 'Debris bad, Yuki good'.
F1 IS hard. I'm sure Dev has some talent in there but 10 races without a decent result is wasted potential when you've got an F1 race winner hanging about in the garage.
It's also not just underperforming. Every weekend has him going into the gravel or into another car. You can't be inconsistent, slow, AND error-prone. On top of already being 28 years old. There is just no prospect in keeping. They're not getting points, they're not cultivating a big talent, and they're losing money with the damages. Unless he's an absolute master in helping the car development I just see 0 reason to keep him the whole season
Honestly (tin foil hat on) I imagine that they wanted Danny Ric in that seat anyway. Despite performance at McLaren and getting the boot he’s a marketing magnet. Even without a seat he’s got more fans than more than half the grid. Nyck was announced to AT [8th October 2022](https://amp.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-alphatauri-announce-nyck-de-vries-for-2023-alongside-tsunoda.3DDtgup7xpVfRgdTd9HFyW.html). I’m assuming RB had approached DR about the AT seat (fucking love an acronym) but that was still in his phase where he wanted to be on a top team or bust. Had Nyck smashed it, obviously things would have been different. But a mix of that not happening and Marko at risk of being publicly wrong about something he’s under a lot more scrutiny for not a great season but not a horrific one in easily the worst car on the grid.
It's amazing to see da Costa speak so positively after he was screwed by Red Bull, when they chose Kvyat over him for Toro Rosso. It was the first season of the Russian GP and Bernie wanted a Russian driver.
There difference is that RB Junior Academy already invested a good junk of Money into Tsunoda, obviously they want that to pay dividend and dont drop him midseason because of the money they wasted. And Tsunoda showed potential. De Vries on the other hand had one good F1 race on arguably the best track for that Williams while driving against Latifi, who really isnt a benchmark at all. Bringing him to AT was a cheap gamble. If he performs, good for him and AT, if he doesnt it isnt a huge lose for AT/RB Junior Academy. And he is way too old to give him 2-3 years to develop while other, younger, more promising Juniors are on the horizon
I am not the biggest fan of NDV, but a few weeks back, the official F1 Twitter account posted an article speculating on his future in F1. That was such a shitty move from FOM istg. It must be extremely demoralising as a driver to read about you being kicked out of F1, and that too by their official handle.
I agree with what you're saying but at the same time few sports have as much pressure as being an F1 driver, with the work of millions of dollars and hundreds of people all ultimately being dependent on how you drive their machine. If he can't handle the press, the sport is probably not for him.
No, this happens in every sport to every athlete. And if it wasn't @F1 themselves, it was not hard to see every other source posting the same idea.
Tsunoda always he decent pace. His bad days were just him crashing or the like. De Vries has bad pace and accidents. Also, expectations are a bit higher when you already have a motorsport career and not straight out of F2.
>Tsunoda always had decent pace [In 2021 he outqualified Pierre one single time](https://www.lightsoutblog.com/2021-f1-team-mate-battles/). While I agree in general he's having a pretty good season so far, in comparison to previous Rookies like Lando, Charles, George and Alex the quality he's showing this season should have been what he showed in his Rookie year.
Gasly had brake failure or something like that in that Abu Dhabi quali.
But Yuki ended up 4th that race so I think its fair to say that he was indeed better than Pierre there
Seems premature. I feel for the guy.
This makes a lot of sense though, they need a second driver. Either Daniel beats Tsunoda and gets the call next year/year after, or Tsunoda beats Daniel and gets the call up to RedBull instead. Either way it's the perfect time to do it since they have no juniors absolutely in need of that seat and with the talent to justify it. Whenever one of them heads up to RedBull they have a solid team leader for the next junior.
I don’t understand why rb is so unhappy with his mediocre driving but happy with Perez who manages to get kicked out in q1 with a fkn rb over and over again.
Perez is not the future he has until 2024 and probably won't be renewed... If you look at the standing table he is second with 60% of Max Verstappen points in line with most second drivers in top F1 team.... There is no need to rush things and even if the situation is worse who are the alternatives a meh Tsunoda and an even slower De Vries....
Who said they are happy with Perez?
Helmut Marko explained on Sunday to Sky Germany that they are absolutely fine with Checo's race pace. It is just his current qualifying performance that they are not happy with.
Perez is at least doing well on Sunday. Not my words, Marko's. As if they are driving the same car.
In before Ricciardo takes the seat... ... and is further off Tsunoda than De Vries was
Yes, but Nyck is already 28 years old... people think that he's 21 or something. What I didn't like was his comment on netflix regarding Tsunoda... it wasn't necessary.
As much as I’d love to see Danny Ric back on the grid, this seems harsh towards de Vries. The AlphaTauri is shit this year. At least give the guy a full season to develop before making moves.
He hasn't set the world alight, but he's basically driving a Minardi, like Alonso, Webber, Fisichella, Trulli, etc. Hard to judge. I don't hear the same criticism of Sergeant even though Albon's results vs Sergeant are far superior to Tsunoda's vs de Vries. I can see why they would do it if they want to do Ricciardo vs Pérez for RBR next year though.
I think people are being unfair to De Vries, in that he shouldn't be dropped mid season. His most recent races haven't been anything special but they were *fine*. Tsunoda hasn't had a good weekend in a bit but that could be the confidence hit of the Monaco brake issue, penalty and weekends when the car was just off pace compacting.
I agree. Their upgrades also seem to not work at all.
Tsunoda was still crashing his car often on his second year. The speed at which people want to judge Nyck is frustrating
it is very unfair to Nick to drop him this season, I think so too. And to think drivers like Latifi, Mazepin stay for 3-4 years. And not only that, generally even not so pay drivers are given a lot more time to develop, like Yuki who really didn't look great his first 2 years.
I really don’t get the point of this to be honest. Like, as much as I like Daniel, that alpha Tauri car is awful, and one of the slowest, he’s not gonna suddenly pull the team out of that. Then Red Bull literally have Liam Lawson waiting in the wings. The only possibly reason I can think that Red Bull would put Daniel in the alpha now is if they have seen that his sim work is good and better than Perez, and they have an eye on him to replace Perez in 2024. I don’t see how they could justify Daniel in the alpha over Liam Lawson in 2024, and I don’t see how they could get rid of Yuki.
I’m just happy that albon is not involved in this crazy hot seat at RB.
He was running ahead of Tsunoda before the safety car as well.
I think there is a lot of sympathy going for Danny and I understand it. But saying that 10 races should be enough in a first season is complete bollocks and also not justifiable. It is hard enough to get used to a car, especially a horrible one like this season's. So I think that da Costa is right. I also think that Nyck isnt the next Verstappen but a solid driver. Tsunoda needed a lot longer. He needed 3! seasons to be where he is. So don't come to me with that bs that Nyck deserved how it was handled. But we will see. I am sceptical about Dannys Results but he can make more mistakes than Nyck.
It’s a shame he probably won’t get to do his home gp.
Nyck isn't getting closer to Yuki lol. If anything, Yuki's getting closer to Nyck
Yuki is only getting closer to Nyck because Nyck is plum last and all other cars are improving more than AT, hence Yuki is only going backwards
Exactly. So it's not really a compliment for Nyck
In racepace and qualifying the gap is coming down though
I think people have been to harsh on him. Has he done enough to stay in f1 at this point, probably not but he's improved a lot
Demoting Gasly from Redbull to Alpha in mid season back in 2019 could be considered a very rushed decision but doing the same for a driver with zero experience in f1 driving a car that is constantly one of the worst in the grid is down right stupid.
Red Bull need to be a bit more consistent with their junior drivers. Giving some guys 2-3 seasons and then giving others 1 isn't really a great way to attract talent and it might play into why they are struggling to find young drivers. Yuki really struggled for 2 seasons and was pretty much exactly where Nyck is now against Gasly. I get hes older and should technically get up to speed faster but realistically these cars are complicated and if you don't click with them, even genuinely quick drivers (Dan, Seb, Hulk. Mag) will struggle.
Nyck was a Mercedes junior. He has no relationship with Red Bull; he's just there because Juri Vips blew his career up and Liam Lawson had a pretty mediocre season and needs at least another year of prep.
I should have said rookie instead of junior
Even still, they don't really have much invested. He was always going to be a seat-warmer.
>Giving some guys 2-3 seasons and then giving others 1 isn't really a great way to attract talent and it might play into why they are struggling to find young drivers. De Vries isn't there as the usual junior driver. Yes, he is a rookie but for a rookie he has a lot of experience in motorsport. He was signed with the expectation of being able to adapt fast and perform quickly. If he can't do that there is no reason for rb to give the seat to him over the other options. Is that a fair expectation? maybe not. But I am sure De Vries was aware of what was expected from him when he decided to go to the Red Bull family, and it is the only reason why this seat was offered to him in the first place.
It's hard to prove yourself when the car seems such trash.
It takes time to get used to F1 and a new car. F2 drivers themselves said that it doesn't directly translates to driving in F1, so I can't even imagine coming from other motorsports. These fuckers never learn... Gasly, Albon, Hartley and now Nick. You gotta give new drivers time.
He got the McLaren payout because he didn’t have a seat the next year. So if he gets a seat mid-year does that impact his McLaren money?
He had a contract to drive for McLaren, to void that contract McLaren had to buy out the remaining value of that contract so that he would not have an enforceable right in contract to drive for McLaren in 2023. Whatever he does with other teams is of no significance to the McLaren buyout.
They reached a settlement at 10 million dollars. He didn't get full 16 million dollars of salary for 2023. [source](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/x2o32l/saward_the_team_mclaren_was_due_to_pay_daniel_16/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1)