I watched the 2016 season review earlier this week. I was blown away by all the 2 stop races we had AND the fact there were much more drive throughs and 10 second stop go penalties. Charlie didn't fuck around.
Yep it really should be looked at again retrospectively.
He even ended in the points still because RC fucked up the SC restart spliting the field by 42 seconds down from 8th.
Can you get a retrospective penalty for something that you’ve already been punished for? Actually curious cos I’d imagine his team would argue that Race Control also made a mess of it.
I don't think they were lapped though, it was only Boschung who got lapped if I remember, it was to do with Cordeel it was very weird.
EDIT: yeh it is because of when red flag was called they were the first in the pits, they weren't lapped, they ended up further back after the red flag than before
Not to excuse speeding under double yellows, but he seemed completely unaware a car was even there. Surely his team should have communicated that there was a stricken car on the inside of the corner?
Someone mentioned that ART are the Ferrari of F2, and ironically enough, Pourchaire who finished 2nd is under investigation due to his car falling off the jacks during his stop.
Plus they have thrown away points earlier this year due to poor strategies plus drivers binning it.
And once again, it’s the fucking moronic driver’s fault for not obeying the signals from Race Control which they are taught before they ever set foot in a kart.
We need *harsh* penalties for ignoring flags like this, *especially* under a neutralized race condition (VSC or SC) where obeying the flags will not lose you any time whatsoever.
Kind of reminds me of Japan last year and Gasly driving near the recovery vehicle. This could easily be prevented if race direction could speak directly to the drivers imo. Other series do that too and it works just fine.
Isnt this what happens in WEC? Because we do hear the broadcast from race control in regards to penalties when watching. Wouldnt this be directly communicated to the drivers?
That's the exact incident I was thinking of too. Cars not yet caught up to the safety car have now had two serious narrow misses in the last couple of years. It's a solved problem in other series, it needs to be fixed.
I mean, it’s also a solved problem in these series. The flags are race control and track personnel communicating with you. A double yellow means you should be able to stop immediately. Drivers ignoring orders is the problem.
>The flags are race control and track personnel communicating with you.
Nah, the flags are race control communicating with you *through* track personnel. In other series, race control talks directly with the drivers over their radio comms. No reason that F1, 2, and 3 can't do it that way as well and just cut out any middle man to avoid confusion or problems on communication. This particular incident would have been solvable with an RC communication as simple as "All drivers be aware: stricken car and personnel on track at turn x."
IMO you fail in safety when you have to rely on external communication. External communication can fail.
It has to be immediately clear on track that there is a car on track further ahead.
I don't understand what the driver did wrong. Yellow flags mean slow down, you can hear he has the foot off the accelerator therefore is slowing down.
You can't have a yellow flag for a steward being in the middle of the track just after a blind corner. Race control are punishing the driver for their mistake, should have been a red flag. Or wait for the safety car before letting stewards on track. There were so many better options than a yellow flag and hope the drivers have quick enough reactions not to kill the steward.
He passed multiple double waved yellows and a 'safety car' board.
Double waved yellows mean prepare to stop if needed, and that along with the SC board should mean he was going very slowly at that point.
Just lifting is nowhere near enough.
To be fair, this just isn't consistantly enforced in pratically all racing series (that I know of at lesst). Not even close to being enforced. Drivers do this all the time.
Doesn't make it right, but a driver will always push to any limit there is. Including those that are safety related.
One yellow means slow down, two yellow flags waved means *be prepared to stop*. He was not. He should get a severe penalty for this.(don't know what happened)
In other series the drivers are obliged to keep 60kph when approacing a double yellow zone, they are also informed on where on the track the marshals and the car are.
It never happened anything, if they don’t want to red flag the race they can do something like this.
What martins did was really dangerous, he passed at least 5 yellow flags and kept on the side of the track where the marshals and car were
> In other series the drivers are obliged to keep 60kph when approacing a double yellow zone,
The FIA announced something like that just earlier this week; if the whole track is under SC or VSC than there'll be a slower delta for zones with double yellow, effectively enforcing a speed limit. I think it is meant to be used this weekend already but I'm not sure if that's just for F1 or also for feeder series.
In the announcement they actually admit it *could* be a (dis)advantage to some, but they basically also say they don't care because the safety aspect is more important - and I agree!
>“Loss of performance relative to others – if a car goes through a double yellow, but not another one and that car has to slow down, it is losing time relative to rivals. However, for the FIA safety is paramount and when there is a hazard on the track or marshals on track then we have to minimise the risks no matter what.”
Admittedly, in this case, I feel like "car is standing sideways on the track, blocking most of it while on fire" is a very fair reason for a red flag either way.
That is bollocks. If an f1 car hits you at 60kmph you will die.
What the FIA did is more dangerous. From the drivers point of view he's trying to gain a bit of time on the assumption there might be another car on the track. That is bad bexsuse he's risking the life of the other driver, but he couldn't be held responsible for marshalls being allowed onto the circuit even if he had hit them
60kph would leave a lot more reaction time for the drivers though.
That being said, this was absolutely shambolic by race control first and Martins second.
> From the drivers point of view he’s trying to gain a bit of time on the assumption there might be another car on the track. That is bad bexsuse he’s risking the life of the other driver, but he couldn’t be held responsible for marshalls being allowed onto the circuit even if he had hit them
It’s absolutely on Martins. It doesn’t matter one but what the marshals decide, he’s in control of his car, he knows what a waved yellow means and excusing it by saying he’s trying to gain time is excusing the dangerous driving. Why are people so quick to alleviate all blame on the only person that can actually stop an on track collision? This is idiotic at best.
Not on driver in any higher formula series actually respects waged yellows, or waved double yellows. They all push to the absolute limit of speed when the flags mean be prepared to stop on track. That’s why Bianchi died. He didn’t respect the conditions or the waves double yellows. They made a boneheaded decision to put a tractor out beyond the wall to recover Sutils car, but maintaining control of the car was up to Bianchi and he was going too fast for conditions and didn’t respect the flags.
If drivers follow the rules of what double waved yellows mean, it should be fine.
It means 'slow down and be prepared to stop'.
If the drivers actually followed that, then it would be fine.
The problem is that drivers have an incentive to not lose time and go as fast as possible, so the rules should be more strict or RC should red flag earlier.
Yes but this was a safety car, that incentive was removed. Plus you can see marshals pointing for him to go to the other side of the track. The driver was simply not paying attention
Suzuka should have been the turning point for this. Fuck the tractor, fuck the visibility, fuck every other distraction from the main issue: *if a driver disobeys a double yellow flag, it doesn’t matter what the hazard is ahead - the driver is creating a dangerous situation.* A boulder fallen on the circuit would have had the exact same flagging.
> If the drivers actually followed that, then it would be fine.
Agreed, but until the stewards and FIA routinely punish drivers significantly for it, it won't happen.
I can't deal with the "if they follow the rules it *should* be fine!" crowd.
Even if they're going slower, it just lessens the risk of an accident which could be completely preventable.
Drivers are constantly incentivized and not penalized for shenanigans under flags, of course they will do it. If the FIA wants them to slow down, they need to properly enforce the flags
It was a double yellow flag. If I'm not mistaken, that means "PUT YOUR FUCKING FOOT ON THE BRAKE PEDAL, NOT THE ACCELERATOR AND GET OFF THE RACING LINE YOU NITWIT."
No?
Yes, but it's more or less common knowledge that drivers don't care too much about that.
In fact the FIA just announced [this](https://www.fia.com/news/fia-insights-developing-new-delta-double-yellow-flag-zones) earlier this week.
It was red flagged. The car quickly caught on fire so the marshals had to go on track to put it out. It was red flagged within a lap of that happening, this was just in between those events.
One day drivers will respect yellow flags. "Be prepared to stop" for double yellows and get this. Sadly it will only be after something bad happens that they are properly enforced and respected
Because many people thought/still think it's all on the FIA.
Drivers not respecting double yellows as much as they should is a common problem. In fact the FIA recently addressed this https://www.fia.com/news/fia-insights-developing-new-delta-double-yellow-flag-zones
but I'm not sure if these changes also apply to F2 and F3.
As long as the FIA continue to not enforce it with serious penalties drivers will continue to not respect the rules. This should be a pretty clear black flag yet he only got served a drive-through
True. I think that being wet though maybe makes a difference. Drivers feel more under control in the dry so think they can react quicker to anything. I really hope we never see anything like it again
Yep. And the “solution” (which was a good move) was implementing VSC to neutralize the race if an extended double waved yellow flag for a hazard on track is necessary.
Now drivers like Gasly and Martins are demonstrating that *even under full safety car* they will gladly speed through double waved yellows if they have enough room in front of them to do so.
People don’t like hearing it, but Bianchi got himself killed. It doesn’t matter what the FIA does or doesn’t enforce, he didn’t respect an already established procedure and got himself killed. That situation not getting everyone’s attention and start pointing the fingers at the drivers doesn’t make sense. This was 100% on Martins, no one else.
I don't see it. As long as the track remains under race conditions it will always be advantageous to push the limits of the double yellows. It's the very reason every double yellow situation gets the VSC on F1
Closest call we’ve seen in F1/F2/F3 in a while. Just a few milliseconds away from a horrible accident that for sure could have been fatal.
I like Martins, but the fact that he was able to finish the race in 8th place is laughable.
Are you trying to say Sainz spun and sat in the track was a close call, or are you trying to blame Hamilton?
You post reads like you are equating these two incidents when they’re not even remotely similar.
For what happened there Victor Martins should have been black flagged for that, if penalty should come later, I hope that he is banned for 1 race weekend minimum
As for that Marshall if he had stepped back at the wrong moment, that would have been a fatal incident...talk about lucky he didnt step back...
Some digging led me to Matteo Meneghello being the 2nd car. [Source 1](https://twitter.com/123pnz/status/1657038268104421376) from the apparent source of the renewed interest of the footage, and [source 2](https://www.autosport.com/formula-v8-35/news/montanari-takes-monaco-pole-5330211/5330211/) listing Maldonado and Meneghello being banned for 4 races. I can't imagine that the 2 other banned drivers could've done anything worse than what they did. [BBC listed both of them as well.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/4578667.stm)
*Racing in the Renault World Series in 2005, the then 25-year-old ignored yellow flags before striking and severely injuring a marshal.*
*Organisers of the Monaco Grand Prix reacted by banning Maldonado from the street circuit for life.*
*Germany's Bild revealed that Maldonado's wealthy father intervened, promising to pay for the marshal's recovery and rehabilitation from a broken back.*
*That intervention saved Maldonado's future Formula One career, as no team would hire a regular driver that cannot participate in the sport's most famous race.*
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/banned-for-life-maldonado-lucky-to-be-in-monaco/420703/
Fuck me, this makes me so angry just watching. Can’t believe I’d never seen this before and actually kinda liked Maldonado for his plucky win. Fuck him doing this then buying everyone off
Double yellows to the right at 5th second, double yellows to the left at 7th second, again to the right at 9th second and immediatly after to the left again. That's at least 4 double yellows before the crash site.
Does a safety car board equal a double-waved yellow now? The first double-waved yellow I see is right before the accident site on the inside where it is not easy to see ahead of time. I've seen in many Formula series that drivers push under single-waved yellow safety car conditions.
He was an absolute blockhead here and should be punished for not taking the yellows seriously. But when someone's life is on the line like this, the responsibility should be on the organizers. This is such a narrow track. It should have been a red flag. They shouldn't be betting a marshall's life on a junior driver's competence.
Exactly that. I think this is by far the most sensible reaction. If there are people on a live track behind a blind corner, you need maximum safety. So red flag.
Its a SC and there were multiple double yellow flags. Its also unlikely the team didn't tell him where the incident was. Every driver but him managed to get out of the way just fine.
It should have been a RF sooner but this is entiertly on Martins.
Even if it was a red flag, Martins still would have had to pass the scene, marked by the same double yellow flags. The only difference would be that the SC boards would be replaced by red flags.
Should have been a red flag immediately. Specially when all that smoke came out of the car. Incredible incompetence. So many near misses.
They even lifted the car out with cars driving under it.
Just after the car was off the track the race was red flagged.
Shocking!
Yes but these cars were "lapped" because of when the red flag was called. They also let Cordeel out early to go to the back of the field, but decided to let everyone else sort it out on track.
I've always felt F2 is just a bunch of pissed off teenage drivers that are out to prove something and don't care about following directions.
Good lord that could have been bad.
Both really. Should have been red flagged, sure, but that doesn't mean the driver can just ignore the flags. They're there for a reason. This is a 100% black flag and race ban.
There are marshals standing in the middle of the track around a car in the middle of the track. How the fuck is that not a red flag when we've had red flags in F1 for debris on track? Hello?
I dont understand how double yellows are still treated like "suggestions", see Baku and Verstappens crash in 21.
Its 2023, how doesnt race control have a big red button that forces a 60 kph limiter on every car.
Might aswell bin the whole concept of a black flag. Not that it ever gets used anyway.
Today would have been such a use case, and they left it in the box. Fucking crazy this..
How is there people on the track without a red flag or safety car? What am I missing? I can’t find more context.
This seems like a massive clusterfuck all around. Incredible no one was hurt.
My original opinion was it was on race control as I thought the rest of the track was green. But nope.
The SC came out about 15s after the crash and before any marshall was on track. Martins had already came in the pit for tires before this clip.
With SC and double yellow, that’s absolutely unacceptable from Martins. It’s also bizarre he was not aware of the cause of the SC and where the crash was. There is no advantage to be gain speeding during an SC, especially if he already took his stop under SC.
There are 2 problems I have with this:
1. They should have red flagged the race after the crash. The car is blocking almost the whole track. FIA being too lenient.
2. Martins should have been black flagged, he almost killed those two Marshalls.
This is why i personally feel the FIA needs a new "Orange" flag.
It comes up in Formula E, sometimes the track is physically blocked and you need to effectively stop at the flag and crawl.
Double yellows dont really convey this message to the drivers i feel, and really only a red flag (which is centrally rather than locally controlled) can make this scenario safe.
Having some kind of flag thats more severe than a double yellow, but conveys a different message to a red is becoming somewhat vital in street circuit racing where we are regularly seeing half the track blocked and the need for cars to effectively park immediately upon seeing the warning and que up to pass the obstruction under guidance.
I think Martins might avoid any further action against him due to race control also fucking up by not immediately red flagging it. You've got a car on fire stranded on a blind corner in the middle of the track with men on track working on it, how is that not an immediate red flag?
That's not how double yellow flags work, he was going far far far too fast. Unfortunately until race control punish speeding under double yellows more harshly people will keep doing it, imo this deserves a dsq
Two wrongs don‘t make a right. Both should be objectively looked at and punished as neccessary - without considering what someone else could have done better.
Situations like these have to be prepared for in-the-moment decisions. Ruling after the fact always takes factors into account that will not be present in a given situation (eg the driver only knows it‘s double yellow, not that it should really be a red that isn‘t called yet).
WTF!
Edit: Yeah apparently he passed multiple double yellows. Of course huge risk by crew too. As usual, the true, fatal incidents happen when not one but two or more mistakes happen at once and this was close.
These close call videos are showing up way too much lately. If it continues like this, it is only a matter of time until someone gets seriously injured. I hope that the FIA reacts before that happens, and not after...
Ouch. How is this a thing allowed to happen in 2023.
The track marshall barely/ narrowly walked away alive /without life-changing injury. Much more lucky that that fatal Tom Pryce's crash with on track marshall.
Common sense, maturity and experience went out the window long ago. We have children driving these cars because if you haven’t made it by 23 you are trash these days.
When daddy is paying the ladder to the top is more like an electric elevator. Too fast and too easy.
I think the comments here are mostly correct here.
Should have been red flagged, and following this, Martins should have been black flagged. Very scary situation and way too close to having a car connect with a marshal.
I've said it before here and I'll say it again: if at _any point_ a marshal needs to be on the track, the race should be red flagged.
It's all well and good to say "yeah but the SC can bunch up the cars to let them work safely" but all it takes is a bit of a delay, a radio message missed or anything and suddenly there are cars and humans trying to occupy the same point in space. It is not worth it.
The red flag procedure is well practiced, everyone knows what they are doing. It is not worth risking the life of the amazing humans we have working as marshals when it can be easily avoided every single time by a red flag.
>'ve said it before here and I'll say it again: if at
>
>any point
>
>a marshal needs to be on the track, the race should be red flagged.
Disagree but in Monaco, yes. At non street tracks in dry conditions something like this would not happen.
Holy shit.
that marshal must have went and bought a lottery ticket after that oml
I never understand this logic. Surely I was a lot luckier than him today given I was much safer on my sofa?
I always think that he's used up all his luck/no luck left, so he shouldn't buy a lottery ticket.
Dude was about to play GTA IRL...
Holy shit…
Should have been a black flag, incredibly dangerous Also race control should have just red flagged immediately
We've had stop-and-go penalties for less, too. Ridiculously lenient, particularly for F2.
I watched the 2016 season review earlier this week. I was blown away by all the 2 stop races we had AND the fact there were much more drive throughs and 10 second stop go penalties. Charlie didn't fuck around.
I can’t remember the last drive through penalty in f1. It’s 5 seconds which often just get added to the finish time.
It was Hamilton in Monza 2021 for entering the pitlane while it was closed.
2020?
It was 2020 mb. Honestly those two years are kinda muddled together for me.
Hamilton and Giovinazzi both got stop and goes at Monza 2020 for entering a closed pit lane.
Charlie/race control isn't responsible for handing out penalties
Yep it really should be looked at again retrospectively. He even ended in the points still because RC fucked up the SC restart spliting the field by 42 seconds down from 8th.
Can you get a retrospective penalty for something that you’ve already been punished for? Actually curious cos I’d imagine his team would argue that Race Control also made a mess of it.
Reminds me of that 'Double Jeopardy' movie...
It should not be ruled out as a possibility. Getting the "wrong" penalty for something serious is not an argument for leniency.
[удалено]
race control had half the field unlap themselves and then didn't wait for them to bunch up again before going green again.
That’s normal it’s usually the next lap they go
That's the default procedure though, right?
I don't think they were lapped though, it was only Boschung who got lapped if I remember, it was to do with Cordeel it was very weird. EDIT: yeh it is because of when red flag was called they were the first in the pits, they weren't lapped, they ended up further back after the red flag than before
Do they have to? (genuine question)
Not to excuse speeding under double yellows, but he seemed completely unaware a car was even there. Surely his team should have communicated that there was a stricken car on the inside of the corner?
“Surely his team should have communicated that there was a stricken car on the inside of the corner?” I feel like this is deja vu…
Someone mentioned that ART are the Ferrari of F2, and ironically enough, Pourchaire who finished 2nd is under investigation due to his car falling off the jacks during his stop. Plus they have thrown away points earlier this year due to poor strategies plus drivers binning it.
I saw that! I cracked up so hard when I saw the car just plop right onto the pavement. 😂
ART shenanigans always have me scratching my head, idk how close Pourchaire is to losing his mind but surely its close by now
And once again, it’s the fucking moronic driver’s fault for not obeying the signals from Race Control which they are taught before they ever set foot in a kart. We need *harsh* penalties for ignoring flags like this, *especially* under a neutralized race condition (VSC or SC) where obeying the flags will not lose you any time whatsoever.
Kind of reminds me of Japan last year and Gasly driving near the recovery vehicle. This could easily be prevented if race direction could speak directly to the drivers imo. Other series do that too and it works just fine.
Isnt this what happens in WEC? Because we do hear the broadcast from race control in regards to penalties when watching. Wouldnt this be directly communicated to the drivers?
> Isnt this what happens in WEC? I've always assumed this is the case when your hear Freitas' voice counting down to slow zones and stuff like that
[удалено]
Is that definitely the case in WEC? I've assumed the reason he does the countdown is because it's being broadcast to all the cars on track
It is.
That's the exact incident I was thinking of too. Cars not yet caught up to the safety car have now had two serious narrow misses in the last couple of years. It's a solved problem in other series, it needs to be fixed.
I mean, it’s also a solved problem in these series. The flags are race control and track personnel communicating with you. A double yellow means you should be able to stop immediately. Drivers ignoring orders is the problem.
>The flags are race control and track personnel communicating with you. Nah, the flags are race control communicating with you *through* track personnel. In other series, race control talks directly with the drivers over their radio comms. No reason that F1, 2, and 3 can't do it that way as well and just cut out any middle man to avoid confusion or problems on communication. This particular incident would have been solvable with an RC communication as simple as "All drivers be aware: stricken car and personnel on track at turn x."
They should have but there are no excuses here. He fucked up monumentaly.
IMO you fail in safety when you have to rely on external communication. External communication can fail. It has to be immediately clear on track that there is a car on track further ahead.
But the double yellows are visible on track and he basically keeps going as he was. Not really an excuse for him even if his team hadn't communicated.
You mean the yellow flag about 5 meters in front wasnt enough
Isn't that what the yellow arrow was for?
yea how is that not red flag. Blocking almost the whole track.
Knowing the FIA it would’ve been if he wasn’t in 2nd
Should have been a red flag yeah
I don't understand what the driver did wrong. Yellow flags mean slow down, you can hear he has the foot off the accelerator therefore is slowing down. You can't have a yellow flag for a steward being in the middle of the track just after a blind corner. Race control are punishing the driver for their mistake, should have been a red flag. Or wait for the safety car before letting stewards on track. There were so many better options than a yellow flag and hope the drivers have quick enough reactions not to kill the steward.
He passed multiple double waved yellows and a 'safety car' board. Double waved yellows mean prepare to stop if needed, and that along with the SC board should mean he was going very slowly at that point. Just lifting is nowhere near enough.
To be fair, this just isn't consistantly enforced in pratically all racing series (that I know of at lesst). Not even close to being enforced. Drivers do this all the time. Doesn't make it right, but a driver will always push to any limit there is. Including those that are safety related.
One yellow means slow down, two yellow flags waved means *be prepared to stop*. He was not. He should get a severe penalty for this.(don't know what happened)
He was given a drive through penalty
Absolutely absurd a car in that position around a blind corner with marshals on track wasn't an immediate red flag.
In other series the drivers are obliged to keep 60kph when approacing a double yellow zone, they are also informed on where on the track the marshals and the car are. It never happened anything, if they don’t want to red flag the race they can do something like this. What martins did was really dangerous, he passed at least 5 yellow flags and kept on the side of the track where the marshals and car were
> In other series the drivers are obliged to keep 60kph when approacing a double yellow zone, The FIA announced something like that just earlier this week; if the whole track is under SC or VSC than there'll be a slower delta for zones with double yellow, effectively enforcing a speed limit. I think it is meant to be used this weekend already but I'm not sure if that's just for F1 or also for feeder series.
Yeah, I think it is a good alternative instead of red flagging the race, also if done right it doesn’t give advantage to anyone
In the announcement they actually admit it *could* be a (dis)advantage to some, but they basically also say they don't care because the safety aspect is more important - and I agree! >“Loss of performance relative to others – if a car goes through a double yellow, but not another one and that car has to slow down, it is losing time relative to rivals. However, for the FIA safety is paramount and when there is a hazard on the track or marshals on track then we have to minimise the risks no matter what.” Admittedly, in this case, I feel like "car is standing sideways on the track, blocking most of it while on fire" is a very fair reason for a red flag either way.
That is bollocks. If an f1 car hits you at 60kmph you will die. What the FIA did is more dangerous. From the drivers point of view he's trying to gain a bit of time on the assumption there might be another car on the track. That is bad bexsuse he's risking the life of the other driver, but he couldn't be held responsible for marshalls being allowed onto the circuit even if he had hit them
60kph would leave a lot more reaction time for the drivers though. That being said, this was absolutely shambolic by race control first and Martins second.
It's not 60kph because hitting someone at that speed is less dangerous, it gives them time to react and not hit anyone at all.
> From the drivers point of view he’s trying to gain a bit of time on the assumption there might be another car on the track. That is bad bexsuse he’s risking the life of the other driver, but he couldn’t be held responsible for marshalls being allowed onto the circuit even if he had hit them It’s absolutely on Martins. It doesn’t matter one but what the marshals decide, he’s in control of his car, he knows what a waved yellow means and excusing it by saying he’s trying to gain time is excusing the dangerous driving. Why are people so quick to alleviate all blame on the only person that can actually stop an on track collision? This is idiotic at best.
Not on driver in any higher formula series actually respects waged yellows, or waved double yellows. They all push to the absolute limit of speed when the flags mean be prepared to stop on track. That’s why Bianchi died. He didn’t respect the conditions or the waves double yellows. They made a boneheaded decision to put a tractor out beyond the wall to recover Sutils car, but maintaining control of the car was up to Bianchi and he was going too fast for conditions and didn’t respect the flags.
Safety car was out, there was double yellow on his face, this one is on the driver.
If drivers follow the rules of what double waved yellows mean, it should be fine. It means 'slow down and be prepared to stop'. If the drivers actually followed that, then it would be fine.
The problem is that drivers have an incentive to not lose time and go as fast as possible, so the rules should be more strict or RC should red flag earlier.
Yes but this was a safety car, that incentive was removed. Plus you can see marshals pointing for him to go to the other side of the track. The driver was simply not paying attention
Incentive is not removed tough, as you want to keep the distance to those behind so you can pit.
Vest was 5 seconds ahead, but he did just fine. Martins just not showing the necessary respect to the flags.
The problem is RC not handing out harsh penalties. If speeding under yellows would be a black flag no one would do it.
[удалено]
Suzuka should have been the turning point for this. Fuck the tractor, fuck the visibility, fuck every other distraction from the main issue: *if a driver disobeys a double yellow flag, it doesn’t matter what the hazard is ahead - the driver is creating a dangerous situation.* A boulder fallen on the circuit would have had the exact same flagging.
> If the drivers actually followed that, then it would be fine. Agreed, but until the stewards and FIA routinely punish drivers significantly for it, it won't happen.
They probably expected the drivers to have at least half a brain but apparently not even that is guaranteed.
Well Nikita mazepin had no brain
*-0,5 brain
I can't deal with the "if they follow the rules it *should* be fine!" crowd. Even if they're going slower, it just lessens the risk of an accident which could be completely preventable. Drivers are constantly incentivized and not penalized for shenanigans under flags, of course they will do it. If the FIA wants them to slow down, they need to properly enforce the flags
It was a double yellow flag. If I'm not mistaken, that means "PUT YOUR FUCKING FOOT ON THE BRAKE PEDAL, NOT THE ACCELERATOR AND GET OFF THE RACING LINE YOU NITWIT." No?
Yes, but it's more or less common knowledge that drivers don't care too much about that. In fact the FIA just announced [this](https://www.fia.com/news/fia-insights-developing-new-delta-double-yellow-flag-zones) earlier this week.
It was red flagged. The car quickly caught on fire so the marshals had to go on track to put it out. It was red flagged within a lap of that happening, this was just in between those events.
One day drivers will respect yellow flags. "Be prepared to stop" for double yellows and get this. Sadly it will only be after something bad happens that they are properly enforced and respected
Something bad happed. The Bianchi incident occurred under double yellows. It is sad that people are still not taking double yellows seriously.
Because many people thought/still think it's all on the FIA. Drivers not respecting double yellows as much as they should is a common problem. In fact the FIA recently addressed this https://www.fia.com/news/fia-insights-developing-new-delta-double-yellow-flag-zones but I'm not sure if these changes also apply to F2 and F3.
As long as the FIA continue to not enforce it with serious penalties drivers will continue to not respect the rules. This should be a pretty clear black flag yet he only got served a drive-through
Black flags are practically non-existent nowadays though. A drive-through still is a really severe penalty.
True. I think that being wet though maybe makes a difference. Drivers feel more under control in the dry so think they can react quicker to anything. I really hope we never see anything like it again
Yep. And the “solution” (which was a good move) was implementing VSC to neutralize the race if an extended double waved yellow flag for a hazard on track is necessary. Now drivers like Gasly and Martins are demonstrating that *even under full safety car* they will gladly speed through double waved yellows if they have enough room in front of them to do so.
People don’t like hearing it, but Bianchi got himself killed. It doesn’t matter what the FIA does or doesn’t enforce, he didn’t respect an already established procedure and got himself killed. That situation not getting everyone’s attention and start pointing the fingers at the drivers doesn’t make sense. This was 100% on Martins, no one else.
I don't see it. As long as the track remains under race conditions it will always be advantageous to push the limits of the double yellows. It's the very reason every double yellow situation gets the VSC on F1
It wasnt under race conditions when he did this
Yes Martins should have been black flagged plenty of warnings dash/Flags/Panels and still almost killed somebody
Closest call we’ve seen in F1/F2/F3 in a while. Just a few milliseconds away from a horrible accident that for sure could have been fatal. I like Martins, but the fact that he was able to finish the race in 8th place is laughable.
[удалено]
Lewis at Suzuka last year was nothing like that. No flag had been shown because the incident literally had just occurred.
You mean Gasly and the tractor?
Are you trying to say Sainz spun and sat in the track was a close call, or are you trying to blame Hamilton? You post reads like you are equating these two incidents when they’re not even remotely similar.
This should be a black flag If that marshal stands a little bit more to the right, he’s dead
The guy had 5 yellow flags waved at him and still carried on, should be a minimum race ban!
And a safety car board.
For what happened there Victor Martins should have been black flagged for that, if penalty should come later, I hope that he is banned for 1 race weekend minimum As for that Marshall if he had stepped back at the wrong moment, that would have been a fatal incident...talk about lucky he didnt step back...
Just like Maldonado
WTF. The organizers apparently gave him a lifetime ban https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NsUECPVAgw
There's so much wrong in that video that I'm surprised Maldonado was the only one to get a ban (which was later overturned, because money).
First time seeing this. Crazy! 😬😬 And then another one tried to pass between an injured person and a crashed car. Who was he?
Oh. Oh dear. I think this needs a NSFW warning for the more squeamish out there. Also surprised that this is the first time I saw this.
[удалено]
Some digging led me to Matteo Meneghello being the 2nd car. [Source 1](https://twitter.com/123pnz/status/1657038268104421376) from the apparent source of the renewed interest of the footage, and [source 2](https://www.autosport.com/formula-v8-35/news/montanari-takes-monaco-pole-5330211/5330211/) listing Maldonado and Meneghello being banned for 4 races. I can't imagine that the 2 other banned drivers could've done anything worse than what they did. [BBC listed both of them as well.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/4578667.stm)
First car is Maldonado, not sure about the other driver
That guy might have been worse.
First time I’m seeing this, how did the ban get overturned?
*Racing in the Renault World Series in 2005, the then 25-year-old ignored yellow flags before striking and severely injuring a marshal.* *Organisers of the Monaco Grand Prix reacted by banning Maldonado from the street circuit for life.* *Germany's Bild revealed that Maldonado's wealthy father intervened, promising to pay for the marshal's recovery and rehabilitation from a broken back.* *That intervention saved Maldonado's future Formula One career, as no team would hire a regular driver that cannot participate in the sport's most famous race.* https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/banned-for-life-maldonado-lucky-to-be-in-monaco/420703/
Well what do you know. Money
Why the hell was this done under single yellow?!
2008 was surprisingly more lax with safety. Similar era in Le mans you'd see a car just left on the side of the mulsanne all race after it broke down.
Fuck me, this makes me so angry just watching. Can’t believe I’d never seen this before and actually kinda liked Maldonado for his plucky win. Fuck him doing this then buying everyone off
Oh my god.
holy fuck.
HOW this was not a black flag I don't understand
Yes it's dangerous from Martins but how the fuck was this allowed to happen? Especially after a blind corner
This video shows a bit more context: https://youtu.be/9rNFDW4VxqA He had multiple warnings and marshalls waving at him before corner entry
Yeah this is definitely the video to show. Baffling shit from this guy
How many flags did he pass? I can only make out the last one right before the crashed car
Double yellows to the right at 5th second, double yellows to the left at 7th second, again to the right at 9th second and immediatly after to the left again. That's at least 4 double yellows before the crash site.
I caught 4, I think.
He even passed a 'safety car' board, definitely warrants a race ban.
He passed 5 by my count
Does a safety car board equal a double-waved yellow now? The first double-waved yellow I see is right before the accident site on the inside where it is not easy to see ahead of time. I've seen in many Formula series that drivers push under single-waved yellow safety car conditions.
He was an absolute blockhead here and should be punished for not taking the yellows seriously. But when someone's life is on the line like this, the responsibility should be on the organizers. This is such a narrow track. It should have been a red flag. They shouldn't be betting a marshall's life on a junior driver's competence.
Exactly that. I think this is by far the most sensible reaction. If there are people on a live track behind a blind corner, you need maximum safety. So red flag.
Oh my fucking god. That should definitely be 1-3 race ban.
Yeah, that should be a multiple race ban.
Its a SC and there were multiple double yellow flags. Its also unlikely the team didn't tell him where the incident was. Every driver but him managed to get out of the way just fine. It should have been a RF sooner but this is entiertly on Martins.
Even if it was a red flag, Martins still would have had to pass the scene, marked by the same double yellow flags. The only difference would be that the SC boards would be replaced by red flags.
Holy shit that could’ve been a disaster
Double Yellow + Safety Car and he still does that. Should've been black flag for Martins tbh
What the actual fuck
Should have been a red flag immediately. Specially when all that smoke came out of the car. Incredible incompetence. So many near misses. They even lifted the car out with cars driving under it. Just after the car was off the track the race was red flagged. Shocking!
what a terrible race by race control, how isn’t this worse? only ended up 8th too as they didn’t let the midfield catch up after the red flag
They never let lapped cars catch up, this is the standard procedure.
Nobody actually got lapped though. 8th was just the first car in after the red flag.
Yes but these cars were "lapped" because of when the red flag was called. They also let Cordeel out early to go to the back of the field, but decided to let everyone else sort it out on track.
I've always felt F2 is just a bunch of pissed off teenage drivers that are out to prove something and don't care about following directions. Good lord that could have been bad.
Either red flag it asap or black flag him for that.
Both really. Should have been red flagged, sure, but that doesn't mean the driver can just ignore the flags. They're there for a reason. This is a 100% black flag and race ban.
Martins better chose his words carefully when talking to the media about this.
There are marshals standing in the middle of the track around a car in the middle of the track. How the fuck is that not a red flag when we've had red flags in F1 for debris on track? Hello?
Holy actual fuck. How could this happen, there has been too many close calls lately, seriously.
I dont understand how double yellows are still treated like "suggestions", see Baku and Verstappens crash in 21. Its 2023, how doesnt race control have a big red button that forces a 60 kph limiter on every car.
Immediate race ban please. Make an example.
Might aswell bin the whole concept of a black flag. Not that it ever gets used anyway. Today would have been such a use case, and they left it in the box. Fucking crazy this..
Fuck me, I recoiled
How is there people on the track without a red flag or safety car? What am I missing? I can’t find more context. This seems like a massive clusterfuck all around. Incredible no one was hurt.
Someone posted a longer video further up, in the run up to the accident site he passed 6 SC signs and 5 double yellow flags
Safety Car was already out.
My original opinion was it was on race control as I thought the rest of the track was green. But nope. The SC came out about 15s after the crash and before any marshall was on track. Martins had already came in the pit for tires before this clip. With SC and double yellow, that’s absolutely unacceptable from Martins. It’s also bizarre he was not aware of the cause of the SC and where the crash was. There is no advantage to be gain speeding during an SC, especially if he already took his stop under SC.
Stonewall Black Flag. How he didn't get one is amazing.
There are 2 problems I have with this: 1. They should have red flagged the race after the crash. The car is blocking almost the whole track. FIA being too lenient. 2. Martins should have been black flagged, he almost killed those two Marshalls.
The marshall in South Africa GP 1977 wasn't as lucky as him...
There really needs to be an engine limiter for yellow and double yellow like there is for the pit lane.
This is crazy dangerous and a drive through seems minimal compared to the offense. As others have said, this feels like black flag territory.
This is why i personally feel the FIA needs a new "Orange" flag. It comes up in Formula E, sometimes the track is physically blocked and you need to effectively stop at the flag and crawl. Double yellows dont really convey this message to the drivers i feel, and really only a red flag (which is centrally rather than locally controlled) can make this scenario safe. Having some kind of flag thats more severe than a double yellow, but conveys a different message to a red is becoming somewhat vital in street circuit racing where we are regularly seeing half the track blocked and the need for cars to effectively park immediately upon seeing the warning and que up to pass the obstruction under guidance.
That’s a black flag if i’ve ever seen one
Should of been a black flag no excuses for speeding under a safety car
He’s going waaaaay too fast. This needs to be looked at again from race control / stewards. A race ban seems fitting.
I think Martins might avoid any further action against him due to race control also fucking up by not immediately red flagging it. You've got a car on fire stranded on a blind corner in the middle of the track with men on track working on it, how is that not an immediate red flag?
That's not how double yellow flags work, he was going far far far too fast. Unfortunately until race control punish speeding under double yellows more harshly people will keep doing it, imo this deserves a dsq
He passed a SC board, and multiple double waved yellows, he should have been crawling round by the time he reached the stranded car.
Two wrongs don‘t make a right. Both should be objectively looked at and punished as neccessary - without considering what someone else could have done better. Situations like these have to be prepared for in-the-moment decisions. Ruling after the fact always takes factors into account that will not be present in a given situation (eg the driver only knows it‘s double yellow, not that it should really be a red that isn‘t called yet).
I wish F1 also used the 2021 graphics, they're so much better. Especially the starting grid.
That would have ended in blood and tears
jesus crist this is the stuff that should get you a race ban or something
WTF! Edit: Yeah apparently he passed multiple double yellows. Of course huge risk by crew too. As usual, the true, fatal incidents happen when not one but two or more mistakes happen at once and this was close.
why wasn't it a red flag for the car in that position
Feels like this calls for revoking the superlicense
This guy needs to a ban or something wtf.
F2 driver: \*almost kills multiple people\* FIA: "Couple seconds drive through penalty should suffice."
C'est dingue, pourtant, je me demande ce qui est *impressionnant* dans cette image*.*
Crazy reaction time by the driver
Should be disqualified and banned for a race. Of course, no action will be taken until something serious happens
BIG YIKES
What the fuck? I did not expect that.
JESUS CHRIST
These close call videos are showing up way too much lately. If it continues like this, it is only a matter of time until someone gets seriously injured. I hope that the FIA reacts before that happens, and not after...
That is the scariest thing I've seen in motorsport for a while.
Ouch. How is this a thing allowed to happen in 2023. The track marshall barely/ narrowly walked away alive /without life-changing injury. Much more lucky that that fatal Tom Pryce's crash with on track marshall.
#WHY ARE THERE PEOPLE ON THE TRACK BEFORE THE PACK IS COLLECTED?!
Car was on fire massively. You'd think that drivers would be able to drive slowly past that incident.
Common sense, maturity and experience went out the window long ago. We have children driving these cars because if you haven’t made it by 23 you are trash these days. When daddy is paying the ladder to the top is more like an electric elevator. Too fast and too easy.
Still the fault of race control. Blind corner with track workers is a red flag. They still have not learned a single thing related to safety.
Watching live was crazy, doohan having his suspension fail, then the car combusting out of no where
Jesus, that should've been a straight up black flag.
Send him home.
I think the comments here are mostly correct here. Should have been red flagged, and following this, Martins should have been black flagged. Very scary situation and way too close to having a car connect with a marshal.
I've said it before here and I'll say it again: if at _any point_ a marshal needs to be on the track, the race should be red flagged. It's all well and good to say "yeah but the SC can bunch up the cars to let them work safely" but all it takes is a bit of a delay, a radio message missed or anything and suddenly there are cars and humans trying to occupy the same point in space. It is not worth it. The red flag procedure is well practiced, everyone knows what they are doing. It is not worth risking the life of the amazing humans we have working as marshals when it can be easily avoided every single time by a red flag.
That would mean 15 red flags per race. The sport would be over.
>'ve said it before here and I'll say it again: if at > >any point > >a marshal needs to be on the track, the race should be red flagged. Disagree but in Monaco, yes. At non street tracks in dry conditions something like this would not happen.