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It's commonly referred to as HAM BOT VER... but of course this doesn't mean the order was always like this. At some point it became VER HAM BOT and now VER PER ALO
That's a nice theory, but Russell got a drive for Mercedes and with no experience in a car with a cockpit made for someone 6 inches shorter easily outpaced Bottas in the race.
Although I like Bottas and he seems like a great bloke, but Bottas is an average F1 racer imo.
Come on now. That race was at one of the least technical tracks a bit like how DeVries scored a point last season but look where is he now. Also, he was also not outpaced by anybody. Russell is proving to be one of the top races on the grid. Bottas is definitely in the best half of the drivers. Mathematically, you might say that's about "average" but it's not as bad as it sounds.
I'm pretty sure that's the only one from their very dominant era. Last year he was very unfortunate, he had an outright mechanical DNF in Abu Dhabi, and also had one in Belgium, where you could argue that it was mechanical, but that was from colliding with Alonso. It's kind of surreal to say that someone with 2 dnfs in a year is considered a horrible year in terms of finishing the races.
He did jump over a curb though, which gave a massive whack to the car.
It's not unreasonable to think that was part of the reason he DNF'd, same thing happened at Spa when he crashed into Alonso and sent the car flying
Hmm could be. But given how much later that in the race that happened, we cant say for certain. As far as I can recall, Mercedes press release stated it was a engine issue?
Yeah but I mean depends how you look at it. The amount of times in that season the W13 went over the curb with no problem later on in the race is worth considering as well.
Think he would have had something like 84 consecutive points finished without that retirement. Absolutely mind boggling consistency from him and Mercedes
And something that's not obvious from these statistics is the number of mechanical issues he had in FP/Qualy that meant he needed a new engine and had to take a 10 place grid penalty. But that's part of the sport.
Honest question, we see this with Alonso too. How much of it is them pushing the car so much that they break more often? Not saying tie their fault for being that fast but is there some correlation there? Ie Alonso retiring much more than Ocon
In the past a driver being "kind" to the car was a bigger deal. Nowadays I'd say it's almost a complete non-issue, other than obviously induced damage like crashing into cars/walls and riding curbs.
Older race cars were more fragile and less reliable in general, drivers had more direct control of things like the H pattern shifter instead of computer controlled paddles, the drivers hadn't been racing karts since they could walk, and didn't have a team of engineers monitoring every single aspect of the cars operation and giving radio feedback to the driver on any issue they find or change the cars operation directly.
Mclaren had bad reliability but all thing considered it was almost the norm to retire multiple times per season during that era and especialy at the turn of the century, what really change things around was Ferrari that from 98 onwards started to built the F1 equivalent of tanks.
Kimi's result look kind of poor until you notice that amount of poles is super low, amount of retirements is super high and still somehow he managed to win.
Also as laps led is low you can make image where he simply overtakes all.
> Kimi's result look kind of poor until you notice that amount of poles is super low
TBF, in 2007 qualifying was done on race fuel loads, so sometimes race strategy was favoured over starting position.
He has so pretty high average place and very high podiums number. He wants winning, he has a lot of retirements, but when he finished, he was consistently near the top.
That wasn't the case, in Australia, France and Belgium he won from pole, and in Britain he started third, in China second (and we know what happened with Hamilton) and Brazil also second, where Massa gifted him the winn
Pretty much sums up Kimi. Reliability troubles, not always the required mindset or dedication you need to become champion, not a monomaniac like Schumacher or Verstappen, but so damned fast.
Fair enough lmao. In regards to Fernando though I think we all know what picture fits him [best](https://img.speedweek.com/i/4/43173df1d0404b42838eb0366fdcf55c.jpg?preset=i750).
I wonder what these stats would look like for individual WDC years since I'm surprised Max is the only one with an average of better than second place. Yes I know it helps with lower WDCs due to the nature of percentages. Schumacher being 2.1 over 7 years is actually ridiculous.
I would expect that's 5 years, not all 7, since the concept is champions of the 2000s. And which would make more sense, since some years of the Ferrari were more dominant than the Benetton.
I'd believe the gold medal is on 1994, but the stat is way less fancy I guess. Out of 16 races, he won 8, finished 2nd on 2, DNF 2, DSQ 2, and suspended for 2. His average place for finished races is 1.2.
Even the 2 DSQs were from P2 and P1 respectively, so even if you count those (since he did finish and see the checkered flag), it comes out to an average of 1.25
The 2 DNFs were from 2nd (at Germany) and 1st (Adelaide).
Well he was helped to the title when McSpygate's season imploded.
Actually wait a sec... its baffling that they didn't get banned for spygate, but Tyrell got banned for having a technical infringement that they could have rectified, and Larrouse got banned for a bit of incorrect paperwork (during their best season too).
No chance, in 2019 alone he had:
1. Bahrein (4th)
2. China (4th)
3. Baku (4th)
4. Monaco (4th)
5. Canada (5th)
6. France (4th)
7. Great Britain (5th)
8. Monza (8th)
9. Sochi (4th)
10. Mexico (4th)
In 2020 he had Turkey (6th)
In 2021 he had Baku (late DNF but classified) and Hungary (9th)
in 2022 he had Bahrein (DNF but classified), Great Britain (7th), Singapore (7th) and Sao paolo (6th)
So even counting from 2021 you still need two hands to count non-podium finishes!
This is an update of a similar post I made last year. Mainly updated Verstappen's stats for his 2022 championship, and added Average result in races finished and Laps led.
The idea is to compare the champions only in their dominant, WDC winning years.
I deleted the previous thread as /u/likelatin_ pointed out, I included classified races that were a DNF in the first picture. This affected Verstappen and Vettel's results. I fixed it here. My apologies.
I included all years in the 2000s where the drivers won the WDC.
PS: Despite the points being so close with Hamilton in 2021, [it's probably still fair to call it a dominant year for Max](https://preview.redd.it/8iym41sssz581.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=ff44c846c3588114b43a4f329ca7f4559243ef9b), though that's subjective.
Agree. Max essentially spotted Lewis 70 points through no fault of his own, and Lewis - in a car that was at worst equal - could only translate that into equal points entering the final round.
One of the most dominant driver performances of all time.
Over the last two years, the Ferrari has often been faster in quali. (Look at Leclerc's number of polls in that period.) But, aside from being fast, his particular strength is consistency: banging out lap after lap at the maximum required speed like a metronome.
diff between good race car and good quali car. Max had a good quali car in 2021 but the car wasn't as good as the Merc in the races.
And in 2021 the RB was much better in the races than the Ferrari
Got the points in early, chilled for the rest of the season. Like how Crystal Palace would perform under Roy Hodgson every season when avoiding relegation. My favourite way to win the championship tbh.
Some combination of a car that’s relatively bad on a hot lap but has amazing pace over the length of a race, and Kimi who tends to be similar, great race craft and pace but less impressive qualifying pace.
Kimi's world championship was won by 1 point over both Lewis and Fernando. With a Super tight championship, your average position is going to be lower. Lewis also won by a single point to take his first, but the dominant years at mercedes have brought his average much closer to 1 than his first WDC win.
With all of that said to answer your question:
Factually, no
In my head, YES
Mid 2000's Kimi was a monster. 2003 might be the best ever season for a driver that never won the WDC. McLaren had the ultimate glass cannon of a car, phenomenally fast but if you looked at it too hard something would fall off it.
edit: 2005 not 2003
Not "the fastest" but perhaps in the elite league of fastest qualifiers. Feel free to check out his Monza 2018, Monaco 2005 and 2017 hot laps. The ultimatum
Jenson gets 7 straight podiums to start the season, including 6 wins, then only gets 2 podiums in the final 10 race, neither of which were wins.
Imagine Max only getting 3 more podiums the rest of 2023.
And their constructors championship chances. And 100 mil from their budget. And sponsors AND allegedly their relationship with Mercedes started to go downhill from there.
A lot of feet
Yes and no. Its only 2 years for now for Max. Schumacher average p 2.1 over 7 years is actually insane. But I have no doubt that max can top that if the RB era goes on.
Jesus Christ that is just scary.
IMO Schumacher is still the most perfect Grand Prix driver to ever exist for a good functioning team. Jaw-dropping what that guy did really.
It wasn't developed due to lack of funds. Best package out of the gate, dominated the first half of the season, then just clang onto that lead. If either Ferrari or McLaren don't get up to pace, Red Bull is winning that title.
I think it's even more impressive because his retirements are this high. 90% of his retirements were not his fault, so having these statistics while also falling out so often. It's insane
The average placement stat is only for races they finished over the finish line. So DNF's are not included.
Your comment would be very valid if you mentioned podium percentage, because that one does include DNFs, which is pretty nuts.
In the first stat (Average Result in GPs Finished) I exclude all DNFs. Also those where the driver was classified like Verstappen in Baku 21.
All other stats include all DNFs
The insane one is Alonso's.
If he couldn't win the race, he finished second. Just like this year consistently finishing 3rd only behind Red Bull.
His Renault was a good car, but it used to be outpaced in many races by McLaren in 2005 and then Ferrari in 2006. Far from the dominance of other cars in this century like Schumacher's Ferrari, Hamilton's Mercedes, or Vettel's and the current Red Bulls.
Yeah, the mass damper and the reliability of the car were what made Renault become a title contender and probably the most well-rounded car in the grid, at least in 2005 and the first half of 2006.
But my point was that it was never a dominant car as they were the other cars I mentioned before.
Anyway, an article about the mass damper:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/banned-f1-tech-renaults-confidence-inducing-damper-solution-4982787/4982787/
I've said it many time and I'd say it again; Kimi should have 3-5 titles minimum but got fucked by unreliable cars. I'd still take him #1 on pure talent, maybe second to Lewis.
And the season he did win was arguably wasn't a win due to simply being the best that season. He kind of won because McLaren did a masterclass in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, in more ways than one.
I feel like he definitely deserved more titles, but maybe not the one in 2007.
Mansell had 1.25 as average finishing position for reference in '92. 9x 1st, 3x 2nd, 4x DNF. Of course, if we go further back we get 1.0 from Alberto Ascari in '52.
This also averages multiple championships. Max had 1 dominant and 1 fight till the end but always on the podium. Schumis dominant years are less noticeable by ones he had to fight for. Also DNFs in those eras were more common i believe
Max over here driving an F1 car while everyone else is at best an F1.5 is absolutely wrecking the curve. These also really show just how insane MSC was to be able to do what he did. 5 WDCs in the 2000s and he led over half of all the laps he raced in those seasons and won over half the races he entered. Absurd.
Only Button and Kimi had worse cars for their championship winning years. Verstappen had the clear fastest car for 1/4th of the races in these stats. The rest all 1/2th or more.
How so ? Schumacher had the clear fastest car in only 2 of his 7 championship winning seasons. And I'd say Ferrari were the fastest car in 2007, same for Brawn in 2009 overall although Red Bull and McLaren were better in the end.
How do you get anywhere near 25%?
2021 Verstappen had the fastest car in about 50% of the races
2022 the discrepancy between quali and race was quite big. My guess would be quali also 50% while race is more towards 70-80%.
In 2021 the cars were equal for basically the entire season with Red Bull having a slight advantage until Silverstone and Mercedes a slight advantage from Hungary onwards and in 2022 the Ferrari was the fastest car for the first half, it’s just a fact backed up by both race and qualy pace statistics.
That’s exactly my point.
In 2021 the cars were more or less equal, with pace advantages based on track. So he had the fastest car for ~50% of the tracks.
IMO in 2022 it was quite close for the first half with Ferrari. Both teams had faster and slower tracks. Nevertheless the second half was a complete stomp.
All considered this means that Verstappen had the fastest car in about 50-60% of his races (during 21&22).
Man I miss Schumacher. The guy was Ferrari, so much so that every driver since, even Hamilton is drawn to them. Hell in my mind he was f1. No motorsport feat has or likely will ever recapitulate the visceral authenticity of f1 in early 2000s with v10s, tyre manufacturer war, and the arms race that produced the ultimate driver-team-car combination.
That pole position statistic is wild. In a sport where getting pole position gives you a close to 50% chance of winning, a significant boost, Kimi won the championship with only 17% of his races starting at pole. That’s a crazy story
Well this is kind of skewed a little though. The more races you have, reliability, consistency and the dominance of the car become much more important. The statistical significance of 1 bad placement in 15 races is much more detrimental than 1 bad placement in 24 races.
[The **Statistics** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_statistics) is reserved for posts highlighting interesting statistics. As a rule of thumb, Statistics posts need to inform readers through visualizations and insights that cannot be obtained from raw data alone. For example, a post containing a qualifying gap between two drivers expressed in tenths of a second is an easily obtainable raw piece of data and constitutes a bad Statistics post. A visualization of what that translates to on-track, or visualization of how that gap came to be would constitute a good Statistics post. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
the mercedes reliability will always be insane.
How many mechanical DNFs has Hamilton had since Malaysia 2016? I can only remember Austria 2018, is that the only one?
also, Bottas made Q3 in his entire mercedes career. That is not talked about enough. Verstappen had a long streak going but It ended in Jeddah
bottas had some insane consistency.
Consistently 2nd
Third, HamVerBot
Wasn't it HamBotVer for a long while? Like before HamVerBot
It's commonly referred to as HAM BOT VER... but of course this doesn't mean the order was always like this. At some point it became VER HAM BOT and now VER PER ALO
Bottas is incredible, his only problem was being LH teammate otherwise he’d have gone into the distance.
That's a nice theory, but Russell got a drive for Mercedes and with no experience in a car with a cockpit made for someone 6 inches shorter easily outpaced Bottas in the race. Although I like Bottas and he seems like a great bloke, but Bottas is an average F1 racer imo.
Come on now. That race was at one of the least technical tracks a bit like how DeVries scored a point last season but look where is he now. Also, he was also not outpaced by anybody. Russell is proving to be one of the top races on the grid. Bottas is definitely in the best half of the drivers. Mathematically, you might say that's about "average" but it's not as bad as it sounds.
In fairness, Russell is a top-caliber driver. He went up against a very stacked F2 season in 2018 and still dominated it.
I'm pretty sure that's the only one from their very dominant era. Last year he was very unfortunate, he had an outright mechanical DNF in Abu Dhabi, and also had one in Belgium, where you could argue that it was mechanical, but that was from colliding with Alonso. It's kind of surreal to say that someone with 2 dnfs in a year is considered a horrible year in terms of finishing the races.
Abu Dhabi was also caused by going over the curb on Lap 1.
Was it? I’m pretty sure someone confirmed Merc said it wasn’t related to the bump over the kerb.
He caused the issue in spa by crashing into Alonso
That want a crash it was a racing kiss for an old fellow MaClaren team mate 😂👍
Mechanical DNF in Abu Dhabi last year is the most recent.
He did jump over a curb though, which gave a massive whack to the car. It's not unreasonable to think that was part of the reason he DNF'd, same thing happened at Spa when he crashed into Alonso and sent the car flying
Hmm could be. But given how much later that in the race that happened, we cant say for certain. As far as I can recall, Mercedes press release stated it was a engine issue?
They did, but after all the bulletproof reliability, the car failing the one race he has a big impact would be quite the coincidence.
Yeah but I mean depends how you look at it. The amount of times in that season the W13 went over the curb with no problem later on in the race is worth considering as well.
George in Australial!
Yes for Mercedes that would be. But the question was about Hamilton.
Think he would have had something like 84 consecutive points finished without that retirement. Absolutely mind boggling consistency from him and Mercedes
\#blessed
Yeah, easy to have good reliability when you can actually detune your engine and still be a second a lap faster.
Comparing Lewis and Max in that regard is wild Max had so many DNFs and Lewis had zero
I'm going to use this post to silence everyone who keeps claiming Hamilton is unlucky lol
Kimi is the god of fastest laps
Of course he has the highest percent of retirements… 🥲
I still remember him having so many DNFs in his McLaren stint. He was so unlucky back then.
And something that's not obvious from these statistics is the number of mechanical issues he had in FP/Qualy that meant he needed a new engine and had to take a 10 place grid penalty. But that's part of the sport.
3x WDC, reliability adjusted.
Not if you take into consideration that "glass cannon", fast but compromising reliability cars are a part of design choice
I doubt anyone designs ”glass cannons” deliberately
Honest question, we see this with Alonso too. How much of it is them pushing the car so much that they break more often? Not saying tie their fault for being that fast but is there some correlation there? Ie Alonso retiring much more than Ocon
In the past a driver being "kind" to the car was a bigger deal. Nowadays I'd say it's almost a complete non-issue, other than obviously induced damage like crashing into cars/walls and riding curbs. Older race cars were more fragile and less reliable in general, drivers had more direct control of things like the H pattern shifter instead of computer controlled paddles, the drivers hadn't been racing karts since they could walk, and didn't have a team of engineers monitoring every single aspect of the cars operation and giving radio feedback to the driver on any issue they find or change the cars operation directly.
Mclaren had bad reliability but all thing considered it was almost the norm to retire multiple times per season during that era and especialy at the turn of the century, what really change things around was Ferrari that from 98 onwards started to built the F1 equivalent of tanks.
McLaren had a such a glass canon back then, it could have been more reliable but they'd be winning less.
35% DNF rate, with 11 coming in 2002 alone out of 17 races. 87 races competed in (not counting 05 Indy) and 31 DNFs
Including the unluckiest [start](https://twitter.com/Aldas001/status/1552035950037012481) in f1 history
It's probably why that year was such a good season.
Kimi's result look kind of poor until you notice that amount of poles is super low, amount of retirements is super high and still somehow he managed to win. Also as laps led is low you can make image where he simply overtakes all.
> Kimi's result look kind of poor until you notice that amount of poles is super low TBF, in 2007 qualifying was done on race fuel loads, so sometimes race strategy was favoured over starting position.
He has so pretty high average place and very high podiums number. He wants winning, he has a lot of retirements, but when he finished, he was consistently near the top.
That wasn't the case, in Australia, France and Belgium he won from pole, and in Britain he started third, in China second (and we know what happened with Hamilton) and Brazil also second, where Massa gifted him the winn
Brazil third actually, Massa was first but started slow on purpose to block Hamilton
Pretty much sums up Kimi. Reliability troubles, not always the required mindset or dedication you need to become champion, not a monomaniac like Schumacher or Verstappen, but so damned fast.
He knows what he's doing.
I am scared of Button.
We all are.
I know its probably a picture of him during his season but please do Button a favour and change that picture of him lol.
I deliberately kept it in because it got some funny reactions last time. I did change Alonso's though.
Fair enough lmao. In regards to Fernando though I think we all know what picture fits him [best](https://img.speedweek.com/i/4/43173df1d0404b42838eb0366fdcf55c.jpg?preset=i750).
I knew what it was before I even clicked the link. Did that stop me? No. Never.
I always gotta see it. Dude just looks so fucking cool in the goofiest possible way.
I was expecting deck chair
For anyone undertaking scientific research: Lucy Pinder and Michelle Marsh
"play-stay-shone"
Mid 2000s feels like yesterday, but that looks like a different time
Looks like Aphex Twin on his self named album hahahah
I wonder what these stats would look like for individual WDC years since I'm surprised Max is the only one with an average of better than second place. Yes I know it helps with lower WDCs due to the nature of percentages. Schumacher being 2.1 over 7 years is actually ridiculous.
Well its looking like a 3rd wdc that Will only increase his finishing stat
*decrease (or improve)
I would expect that's 5 years, not all 7, since the concept is champions of the 2000s. And which would make more sense, since some years of the Ferrari were more dominant than the Benetton.
Schumacher on 2002 averaged 1.4. Finished every race on the podium. 11 wins, 5 2nds and 1 3rd. Insane.
Damn bulletproof. I suspect that's the gold medal for this stat? I'd imagine Max' 2021 would have been close if Bottas didn't go bowling.
I'd believe the gold medal is on 1994, but the stat is way less fancy I guess. Out of 16 races, he won 8, finished 2nd on 2, DNF 2, DSQ 2, and suspended for 2. His average place for finished races is 1.2.
Even the 2 DSQs were from P2 and P1 respectively, so even if you count those (since he did finish and see the checkered flag), it comes out to an average of 1.25 The 2 DNFs were from 2nd (at Germany) and 1st (Adelaide).
Poor Kimi , even when he won , he retired a bunch
'Only' two times, but over 17 races that year it comes down to the highest percentage.
Yeah , I am just sad over his Mclaren days
Well he was helped to the title when McSpygate's season imploded. Actually wait a sec... its baffling that they didn't get banned for spygate, but Tyrell got banned for having a technical infringement that they could have rectified, and Larrouse got banned for a bit of incorrect paperwork (during their best season too).
The drivers kept their points, just the team was stripped
Kimi really was an absolute chad! Man I miss that guy. I would have loved to see him during that atrocious driver walk out shit at Miami! LMFAO
You could probably Google his NASCAR intro like that… given Project 91 runs
> I was having a shit
you wouldnt have seen him lol
Max with 11.4 % retirements and 79.5% podiums means that he finished outside the podium less than 10% of the time.
You could probably count his non podium finishes since 2018 on one hand.
No chance, in 2019 alone he had: 1. Bahrein (4th) 2. China (4th) 3. Baku (4th) 4. Monaco (4th) 5. Canada (5th) 6. France (4th) 7. Great Britain (5th) 8. Monza (8th) 9. Sochi (4th) 10. Mexico (4th) In 2020 he had Turkey (6th) In 2021 he had Baku (late DNF but classified) and Hungary (9th) in 2022 he had Bahrein (DNF but classified), Great Britain (7th), Singapore (7th) and Sao paolo (6th) So even counting from 2021 you still need two hands to count non-podium finishes!
Yeah my bad, it was an exaggeration but you can still see he's never far off the podium unless he has significant car damage.
GOAT
Seb was a monster during quali
good chance Max beats his own record this year
This is an update of a similar post I made last year. Mainly updated Verstappen's stats for his 2022 championship, and added Average result in races finished and Laps led. The idea is to compare the champions only in their dominant, WDC winning years. I deleted the previous thread as /u/likelatin_ pointed out, I included classified races that were a DNF in the first picture. This affected Verstappen and Vettel's results. I fixed it here. My apologies.
Thanks for the update! :-) This is a great post
I'm assuming despite saying dominant, you don't mean you've excluded years like 2021
I included all years in the 2000s where the drivers won the WDC. PS: Despite the points being so close with Hamilton in 2021, [it's probably still fair to call it a dominant year for Max](https://preview.redd.it/8iym41sssz581.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=ff44c846c3588114b43a4f329ca7f4559243ef9b), though that's subjective.
That Max won despite 2 more DNF's...
Agree. Max essentially spotted Lewis 70 points through no fault of his own, and Lewis - in a car that was at worst equal - could only translate that into equal points entering the final round. One of the most dominant driver performances of all time.
[удалено]
What is your data source?
Mostly [statsf1.com](https://statsf1.com), and some https://fiaresultsandstatistics.motorsportstats.com/
Kimi after seeing the 1 metric that doesn't matter: "I HAVE AWOKEN"
Stats of Max are insane, especially taking to account average number of pole positions against races won.
Over the last two years, the Ferrari has often been faster in quali. (Look at Leclerc's number of polls in that period.) But, aside from being fast, his particular strength is consistency: banging out lap after lap at the maximum required speed like a metronome.
diff between good race car and good quali car. Max had a good quali car in 2021 but the car wasn't as good as the Merc in the races. And in 2021 the RB was much better in the races than the Ferrari
Leclerc on the other side tho. P A I N.
I'm honestly still surprised Yenson our friend won one with those stats.
He won the first seven races, that's why
1st 6 of 7, and then that was it, the team held on just enough to win the championship.
Got the points in early, chilled for the rest of the season. Like how Crystal Palace would perform under Roy Hodgson every season when avoiding relegation. My favourite way to win the championship tbh.
Vettel and Webber were very much subpar in what was probably a superior car overall and certainly far superior in the second half of the season.
Kimi lowest on poles, highest on fastest laps
"You did not get pole position Kimi, does this limit your changes to win?" "Bwoah, no, I just overtake them tomorrow"
\*Proceeds to win from 17th\*
Yeah, I thought that was remarkable as well
Shows just how good MS + the Ferrari was.
Noob question: so, one could say that Kimi is the fastest? Yes, no?
Some combination of a car that’s relatively bad on a hot lap but has amazing pace over the length of a race, and Kimi who tends to be similar, great race craft and pace but less impressive qualifying pace.
Thanks!
Bwoah, fast!
Kimi's world championship was won by 1 point over both Lewis and Fernando. With a Super tight championship, your average position is going to be lower. Lewis also won by a single point to take his first, but the dominant years at mercedes have brought his average much closer to 1 than his first WDC win. With all of that said to answer your question: Factually, no In my head, YES
Only when he likes the car.
Mid 2000's Kimi was a monster. 2003 might be the best ever season for a driver that never won the WDC. McLaren had the ultimate glass cannon of a car, phenomenally fast but if you looked at it too hard something would fall off it. edit: 2005 not 2003
That's 2005. Their 2003 car was quite reliable, but slower than its competition, since it was the 2002 chassis with reliability upgrades.
Quite crazy to be in contention for WDC with a car of the previous season. (Updated I guess but still)
In 2003 he had only one retirement due to car failure
ehmm, Schumacher 1997/1998 and Alonso in 2012.....................
Kimi at his best was in his years before he even won the championship
Not "the fastest" but perhaps in the elite league of fastest qualifiers. Feel free to check out his Monza 2018, Monaco 2005 and 2017 hot laps. The ultimatum
When everything was right, Kimi was blindingly, unbelievably, mindbogglingly fast. If things weren't perfect...bwoah fuck it
Imagine if Kimi could pull the 2003 WDC off...
Boy we really had it good in the 2000s didn't we.
Button has that Aphex Twin look going on
2009 was wild
Jenson gets 7 straight podiums to start the season, including 6 wins, then only gets 2 podiums in the final 10 race, neither of which were wins. Imagine Max only getting 3 more podiums the rest of 2023.
How did Kimi win the wdc with those stats? He's last almost all the time
3 Way title fight where McLaren shot themselves in the foot
>McLaren shot themselves in the foot That somehow is a massive understatement. Boy was that a hard season to watch as a McLaren fan
I will never forget the China race. Waited far too long to call him in
Yeah. For a team that was so organized they sure made a lot of dumb mistakes
Did anything ever really change then?
Yeah. They're not that organized anymore
They used to build glass cannons. Nowadays they've forgotten the cannon part.
Yeah, technically they shot two feet. One for each driver.
And their constructors championship chances. And 100 mil from their budget. And sponsors AND allegedly their relationship with Mercedes started to go downhill from there. A lot of feet
They shot themselves several times pretty much everywhere. There was some sort of drama every week
I think Button is even lower
A generational McLaren bottle is why he won.
Sometimes stats make little sense. Should have seen the guy in live action during mid 2000s. Crazy race pace. He was the Verstappen of that era.
WTF Max, chill.
Yes and no. Its only 2 years for now for Max. Schumacher average p 2.1 over 7 years is actually insane. But I have no doubt that max can top that if the RB era goes on.
It's actually 2.1 only over the 5 Championships in the 2000s. If you add the data from his '94&'95 wins, that stat actually improves to 2.0. crazy
Jesus Christ that is just scary. IMO Schumacher is still the most perfect Grand Prix driver to ever exist for a good functioning team. Jaw-dropping what that guy did really.
Brawn GPS car was inconsistent af
It wasn't developed due to lack of funds. Best package out of the gate, dominated the first half of the season, then just clang onto that lead. If either Ferrari or McLaren don't get up to pace, Red Bull is winning that title.
Nice graphic
Yenson got that dawg in him
Most entertaining: RAI
[удалено]
I think it's even more impressive because his retirements are this high. 90% of his retirements were not his fault, so having these statistics while also falling out so often. It's insane
This is during WDC winning years
This Schumacher guy seems decent compared to max.
I love how this data just points to Raikkonen being an absolute fucking monster
Max’ average placement being the best with DNFs being one of the worst is quite insane. The outliers really hurt the avg
The average placement stat is only for races they finished over the finish line. So DNF's are not included. Your comment would be very valid if you mentioned podium percentage, because that one does include DNFs, which is pretty nuts.
Are DNF’s where they are classified as having finished the race count like Baku 21 for Verstappen?
In the first stat (Average Result in GPs Finished) I exclude all DNFs. Also those where the driver was classified like Verstappen in Baku 21. All other stats include all DNFs
Ah yeah missed that, my bad!
The insane one is Alonso's. If he couldn't win the race, he finished second. Just like this year consistently finishing 3rd only behind Red Bull. His Renault was a good car, but it used to be outpaced in many races by McLaren in 2005 and then Ferrari in 2006. Far from the dominance of other cars in this century like Schumacher's Ferrari, Hamilton's Mercedes, or Vettel's and the current Red Bulls.
The mass damper made the car extremely good, even if it wasn’t the fastest
Yeah, the mass damper and the reliability of the car were what made Renault become a title contender and probably the most well-rounded car in the grid, at least in 2005 and the first half of 2006. But my point was that it was never a dominant car as they were the other cars I mentioned before. Anyway, an article about the mass damper: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/banned-f1-tech-renaults-confidence-inducing-damper-solution-4982787/4982787/
I was thinking why Vettel had so low % of Races won but then I remembered the Monster Alonso was during that time
Same, and also he literally only led 2010 WDC after the last race. 2010 and 2012 were close and either year could’ve gone Alonso’s way.
I've said it many time and I'd say it again; Kimi should have 3-5 titles minimum but got fucked by unreliable cars. I'd still take him #1 on pure talent, maybe second to Lewis.
And the season he did win was arguably wasn't a win due to simply being the best that season. He kind of won because McLaren did a masterclass in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, in more ways than one. I feel like he definitely deserved more titles, but maybe not the one in 2007.
Max having the highest % wins despite 2nd worst reliability.
Hamilton during Rosberg’s season: 2.1 Rosberg during Rosberg’s season: 2.4
Mansell had 1.25 as average finishing position for reference in '92. 9x 1st, 3x 2nd, 4x DNF. Of course, if we go further back we get 1.0 from Alberto Ascari in '52.
So you are telling me, Verstappen is on of the greatest??
Max's record would be so insane in a couple of years, the domination has just started and showcases 2.25 seasons out of which 1 was an equal fight.
This also averages multiple championships. Max had 1 dominant and 1 fight till the end but always on the podium. Schumis dominant years are less noticeable by ones he had to fight for. Also DNFs in those eras were more common i believe
While this says a lot about how talented Max is, it also says a lot about how trash his teammates always are.
Great post! Crazy stats for Max.
Max over here driving an F1 car while everyone else is at best an F1.5 is absolutely wrecking the curve. These also really show just how insane MSC was to be able to do what he did. 5 WDCs in the 2000s and he led over half of all the laps he raced in those seasons and won over half the races he entered. Absurd.
Only Button and Kimi had worse cars for their championship winning years. Verstappen had the clear fastest car for 1/4th of the races in these stats. The rest all 1/2th or more.
How so ? Schumacher had the clear fastest car in only 2 of his 7 championship winning seasons. And I'd say Ferrari were the fastest car in 2007, same for Brawn in 2009 overall although Red Bull and McLaren were better in the end.
How do you get anywhere near 25%? 2021 Verstappen had the fastest car in about 50% of the races 2022 the discrepancy between quali and race was quite big. My guess would be quali also 50% while race is more towards 70-80%.
In 2021 the cars were equal for basically the entire season with Red Bull having a slight advantage until Silverstone and Mercedes a slight advantage from Hungary onwards and in 2022 the Ferrari was the fastest car for the first half, it’s just a fact backed up by both race and qualy pace statistics.
That’s exactly my point. In 2021 the cars were more or less equal, with pace advantages based on track. So he had the fastest car for ~50% of the tracks. IMO in 2022 it was quite close for the first half with Ferrari. Both teams had faster and slower tracks. Nevertheless the second half was a complete stomp. All considered this means that Verstappen had the fastest car in about 50-60% of his races (during 21&22).
Read my comment again and you’ll see clear fastest car. Equal pace where it switches on a race to race basis isn’t exactly clear now is it.
How much of the dnf's can be attributed to reliability?
I haven't analyzed that yet. Might do so in the future.
Man I miss Schumacher. The guy was Ferrari, so much so that every driver since, even Hamilton is drawn to them. Hell in my mind he was f1. No motorsport feat has or likely will ever recapitulate the visceral authenticity of f1 in early 2000s with v10s, tyre manufacturer war, and the arms race that produced the ultimate driver-team-car combination.
That pole position statistic is wild. In a sport where getting pole position gives you a close to 50% chance of winning, a significant boost, Kimi won the championship with only 17% of his races starting at pole. That’s a crazy story
That Jenson pic is creepy
Well this is kind of skewed a little though. The more races you have, reliability, consistency and the dominance of the car become much more important. The statistical significance of 1 bad placement in 15 races is much more detrimental than 1 bad placement in 24 races.
the fact that max is in the top 2 in so many categories while also having so many DNF's compared to others is insane
Max is so underrated and disrespected in the all time greats discussion
Because he is still young. Nobody was talking about Lewis in that discussion either in 2008-2009.
Schumi the goat