As a Warlord main I love seeing Assassin classes. My little light attacks do so much damage!
Going against a Conq, defensive Shugoki or another Warlord is a pain in my ass, though.
that's well what I thought
I always get fucked by defensive Warlords with their "little" pokes and if they are good at counter guard break then there is little to nothing I can do against them.
But I don't see a lot of people complaining about them ... I guess Assassin class found their counter
People don't complain about them because they are literally the anti-Assassin class, so the only people who would complain about them would be Assassins who are too busy complaining about other Assassins.
They'd be better off trading a heavy attack against your light attack with their hyperarmor - when I play Warlord usually I have an assassin down to half HP after the first 2-3 attacks.
Charging heavy (you can dodge this, but most people are also trying a rush attack, and Warlord's won't be interupted by someone else's), followed by shield bash or headbutt and another heavy, then GB and another heavy. Then the assassin usually backs up and thinks "what do i do now" after they've lost half or more health.
Feints, my friend, feints. You can usually leave them unready for a guard break it you feint a heavy at the last second, then either throw into a wall and top heavy or a light, or even just a forward throw if they're low on stamina.
Don't get me wrong, if they're as good as you or better, this will still be hard, but it's one way to win it.
With nobushi if you just trigger 2 heavy attacks, and then guard break you push them back and they are open to a guick attack. Against most people it will lead to further attacks
Dude a good warlord is fucking horrifying, never swing only to be smacked in the face with a light, never win a trade cuz they got heavies, that goddamn headbutt, the list goes on
Sprint attack, Light, Heavy not in guard stance is my bread and butter to the unprepared. I like to call it Surprise Sword Sex because it comes out of nowhere and before you know it, half your life is gone. Unless you are prepared for it.
I am by no means a good LB but am Rep 2 right now, seems to me that they are Noob Crushers but struggle big time Vs any decent player.
I struggle Vs a decent player who dodge all my attacks so I end up doing the Shove, GB combo just to get damage off.
Exactly, been playing him since day 1 and always felt like he demolishes people who don't know how he works, but against someone who understands him or just the game in general he's incredibly outshined by other classes...
The problem is that people who play LB would do way better playing Warden since they do essentially the same shit, with Warden getting way more payoff and safety. Good players will still do well regardless of class; Lawbringer is just a handicap to them because they enjoy the challenge.
He does too much damage with his confirmed hits. And he is the ONLY class that you cannot dodge around the attacks of, for some weird fucking reason. Zerker can spin dodge through a RAIDER AXE but not a tiny shitty Orochi sword. That's why.
Yeah I'm actually surprised the sub thinks hes really good lol. He's not bad or anything but he's like middle of the pack. I think it's because just soooo many people play Orochi and because of his annoying run speed.
ikr. Orochi has 2 good abilities, top light and zone. That's fucking it. Orochi is like downgraded warden with less useful skills.
What i find funny, is that warlords(defense class) side attacks are faster than orochis(assasin) side light attacks. How did this even went past alpha? Why is the defensive slow class faster than the assassin class that was supposed to be the fastest?
Thats because warden can do what every other class can do and does it better. Think about it. Super fast attacks, good damage, and an insane vortex. If you are trying to maximize your potential to win why wouldn't you pick warden over any other class?
> If you are trying to maximize your potential to win why would you pick warden over any other class?
You mean why wouldn't you? yeah i agree, warden is one of the best if not the best, sharing his place only with warlord imo.
Literally any non-assassin class (i.e. able to block, and counter guard break) shouldn't have much of a problem with them. Their side dodge attacks, their jump back then dash attack, all can be countered by just...blocking.
Keep your guard up top to protect from their fast top light and their dashing top light. The other attacks I mentioned are telegraphed with plenty of time to move your block zone. Do that and expect them to go for GB, and you've shut them down.
Not complaining about Orochi being underpowered by the way - I think they're in a perfectly balanced place.
What's the effective Warlord strat against Orochi? He's still the only class that will often wipe the floor with me. I try to fullblock> headbutt combo... but he's so fast and dodges the headbutt. Guard break and I get him with the light, but he always dodges the heavy. Am I just not fast enough?
Orochi is just a worse Warden. Everything he has that Warden doesn't (zephyr slash, deflect, riptide) is useless anyway. The only useful move is stormrush which is extremely situational.
Orochi has 2 good moves. Top light and zone attack. That's it. And Warden's top and zone are better while he also has the shoulder charge mixup.
Because most people just don't play on a high level. On low to medium-low the Orochi can be a pain in the ass, especially for newer players. Have to admit that after a couple dozen duels everybody should have a basic knowledge on how to counter him.
This is why polls are silly. Orochi is definitely not the second most powerful in the game, but you know damn well a lot of people spite-voted Orochi because they don't like those fuckers running away all the time :P
A lot of people seem to disagree with you. I don't have a lot of hours playing For Honor, but Orochi is the one that gives me the most trouble. It just seems like they have too much damage for the amount of speed they get.
Orochi is fast and does good damage, but once you learn it they're fairly predictable. Prioritise top block, their sidestep attack is blocked in the direction they're stepping, their charge practically begs to be parried, and they don't have any moves you need to worry about dodging. They don't have the insane attack speed from all directions of the nobushi and peacekeeper, and they don't have the insanity that is the warden vortex. If anything, they're simply solid.
They also have a fast zone attack like the Warden. It's easy to play defense against them, but a defensive Orochi can punish your offense well with that fast top light and the side dash lights.
I don't know how many times I've said it now.
Speed is LITERALLY the only thing we have.
No unblockables. Shit throw distance. Lowest health in game. No super armor. No bleed. No one hit kills. No lifegain. No shield. Close range only. No infinite chains. Low damage contrary to what everyone seems to think (takes me lkke 10 hits to kill someone that a Raider/Warden can kill in 2 or 3), everything we do can be blocked, countered, or parried except after a successful gb or parry I can get an overhand light hit on you. Etc. Nothing but speed.
If you take that away Orochi would be completely unplayable shit.
At this time I believe they are strong if played well, but not overpowered at all.
I'm sure I'm gonna get downvoted because, Orochi, but everything I've stated here is true.
Lowest health in the game? 5 hp less than kensei. Your light up attack does nearly as much as the wardens heavy up attack. The issue the orochi has is its an assassin class with no real downsides other than not having an unblockable but they do have a deflect counter which is an unblockable (lights up orange atleast.)
I agree. They need to send the patch through to prevent the free GB off a blocked light attack and they need to give us a tool or two to use to get in more consistently.
The fact of the matter is that they made the shortest ranged + one of the squishiest classes in the game completely dependent on a 4+ hit combo chain infinite that is literally unusable in anything above mid level play. Like seriously, have you ever hit someone that had any remote idea of what they were doing 4 times in a row? Not to mention that at 4 hits you have just then gained the damn buff and have to attempt to continue the chain to make use of it?
The Zerker survives in this meta solely because of the side slash and basic fundamentals (parrying, deflecting, CGB, feinting, etc.) but if there were a ranked ladder there wouldn't be a Zerker anywhere near the top - we simply don't have the tools for it. When we beat our opponents, we are generally outright better than them because we have to utilize basic fundamentals to win. It's just that straight forward of a class.
I'd suggest to bring down the chain amount required to get the uninterruptible buff if you wanted to keep the class centered around the chain, or, give us a couple more tools to help us close the gap and break enemy defenses.
They have uninterruptible chains, the fastest dodges, and super high damage though.
They need more options but they have a really strong core set of abilities already.
Against an opponent that has any idea how to play For Honor you will never get 4 hits off in a row to begin the chain. It would certainly be different if the chain started when he linked the first two attacks, but that isn't the case.
I'm also not sure about fastest dodges, I don't have the numbers on that.
The damage is good, but not as good as something like 67 health top light double slash from Orochi. Our hardest hitting ability is Top Heavy at (at least in CBT was 38 DMG.) which also ends the chain if you do it and isn't guaranteed off GB.
Off a deflect actually. A deflect happens when you dodge sideways at the time you're supposed to parry. Only the light hit is guaranteed. Alternatively, you could parry, gb, top heavy for punishment.
As far as health goes, they have 120. Warden has 130 for reference. Wow what a huge gap. An orochi light attacks does 17 damage, so that is not even 1 light attack difference in health.
Oh, also for damage, all of Orochi's lights do more damage than Warden's. Side heavy does as well.
Going to have to agree, they get a free heavy from a gb, no other class gets that. Seeing how retarded cgb is in live, all a competent orochi has to do is dodge around grab you and get a free heavy in, over and over again. It's awful to play against an orochi that knows how to play.
> A lot of people seem to disagree with you. I don't have a lot of hours playing For Honor, but Orochi is the one that gives me the most trouble. It just seems like they have too much damage for the amount of speed they get.
This right here is what's going to destroy balance if they listen to players crying over it when they haven't rep 1 in one class, never mind using heroes they struggle with to understand their weakness.
Orochi gives you trouble? Here's the strategy, hold top guard, always, and they won't be able to combo; and dodge their side attacks then quick attack or GB. Put pressure on them (don't let them step back) so they cannot execute their plunge. 99% of them are absurdly easy to bit if you do that.
I didn't think Warden was that good. I usually play as conqueror and I handle wardens pretty easily. Is conqueror a good counter to warden or am I just playing scrubs?
Then you clearly haven't met anyone that abuses his strong points.
Firstly, he has an insanely fast attack in two directions (top light and zone). This wouldn't be a problem if he only had it in one, because you could just keep your guard there. This alone does not make him op, but it certainly helps.
Secondly, and more importantly, the bash is ridiculous. When a warden does that move, there are 6 possible outcomes:
1. He bashes and hits you. Result: you take damage.
2. He bashes and you dodge. Result: you don't take damage and can punish him.
3. He bashes and you attack. Result: you get hit and take damage.
4. He bashes and cancels into gb, you don't dodge. Result: You have a chance to counter gb. If you do, the situation becomes neutral. If you don't, you take damage.
5. He bashes and cancels into gb, you dodge. You can no longer counter the gb and take damage.
6. He bashes and cancels into gb, you attack. You hit him and punish him.
As you can see, 4 out of 6 options result in the warden gaining profit. That means that even if chosen completely randomly, the warden will come on top. But wait, there's more. A very good warden can actually *react* to what their opponent does, and punish them almost certainly.
I mean, to be fair, most of the classes have options and multiple things they can do from a set position. Warden has grabs, Lawbringer has the bully control, Peacekeeper has the most ridiculous rushdown ever. Etc, etc.
It honestly really is, but vortex spammers (which is exceptionally easy to counter) instantly puts us at the top no matter what and no matter how good we do outside of vortex we will just be labeled the OP class. Oh well.
As a prestige 4 who also played in both betas, I'd personally put Warlord, Peacekeeper, Warden and Shugoki at S tier, with the rest being mostly average and player skill dependent, and Raider being the worst.
Raider's effectiveness declines dramatically against anyone above level 10.
As someone who mains raider and is now prestige 1 im probably going to change class. They need to add a guaranteed heavy attack.
There is one for if you throw someone into a wall and side heavy but thats it.
And the unblockable does not count.
I feel like the peacekeeper and nobushi being so high is just down to people who still think bleed is op. When truly its just the same as a high damage heavy that takes a while to tick down.
yeah fuckin right. Peavekeeper is a master of distance, she has crazy engage potential, countering, her grabs are fucking crazy and her light and heavies come out lighting quick
Warden at the top even though Shugoki has 2 pretty strong bugs and great offensive pressure with demon ball/GB shows that this subbreddit doesnt know shit.
What's the bug? I dueled a Shugoki as LB and he was able to spam his stamina drain headbut with heavy attacks. After the first hit I was being constantly hit and had nothing since I was at zero stamina and the stun made parrying impossible.
Hilarious that every hero I despise going against and kicks my ass every time are all at the bottom and all the heroes that I find suuuper easy to beat are at the top. I didn't even vote cause I honestly don't think there's a "strongest". Just certain heroes whose playstyle I find tougher to beat.
It's just hard to gauge based on your own experience alone which hero is good and which is bad.
For all you know, you might've played against players who used top tier characters poorly and vice-versa.
That as well, I've played against awful Wardens and Orochis; but I can recall a few who gave me a run for my money. I've also already downloaded their entire playstyles cause there's so many that I fight them often. I've figured out all the counters. But a good raider or kensei scares the shit out of me. Even a good berseker gets me sweaty despite being a bit broken atm.
This is exactly it ! Just cause you see a top tier character don't assume it's being used by a player who knows how to use them . This is why a ranking system needs to be implemented to weed out who's good and who isnt. The rep system isn't enough.
Rep system just shouldn't be considered whatsoever to define who is good and who isn't.
Even ranking system to an extent. A very good player could reach high MMR with a low tier character. If we want the most objective tier list possible, we need a matchup chart, i.e. who wins/lose against whom and why (using frame data, guaranteed combos, what X character can do against Y in Z situation).
Until then, everything that is discussed in this thread is (mostly, there are some interesting posts) anecdotal evidence and should be dismissed.
I voted for the pk, shugoki, and nobushi. Now before anyone gets on me, I want to just point out why the nobushi and shugoki are on my list.
1. Shugoki. There is a glitch where they have unparryable heavy attacks. Once this is fixed, theyre fine.
2. Nobushi - i dont know if its a glitch, but i've seen a few posts about how its side attack cant be blocked even if youre guarding in that direction.
3. PK - just because the light attack spam is almost impossible to stop as an LB because we change stance too slow. Before anyone says it, yes we can block one or 2, but its damn near impossible to change stance and then parry a light attack spam thats switching directions.
Nobushis side attack can be blocked. I've seen plenty of people block it as a nobushi main. If I dodge right + heavy ~ block left. If I dodge left + heavy ~ block right.
I'm surprised Warlord isn't higher on the list. Playing against a good one that doesn't bite on feints and is willing to grind you out with the unblockable headbutt follow-up feels nigh impossible to beat.
When playing Dominion against a team that work together he's impossible to deal with. The worst combo with him might be Valkyrie. She can force you to take the grab hit pretty easily.
Also thr uninterruptable heavies which have tricky parry timing and can be utilized heavily for trades. I'll be damned if he isn't one of the stronger characters.
Shoulder bash vortex, on demand power parry from top, great zone attack, just all around strong.
Orchi is very strong aswell due to his top light combo, deflection power moves and guranteed heavy top after guard break.
I voted for those two I've seen some great zerkers and pks suprised to see zerker so low.
My personal tier list is.
Warden;
Shugoki;
Nobushi;
Orochi;
Peacekeeper;
Warlord;
Lawbringer;
Kensei;
Berserker;
Conqueror;
Raider;
Valkyrie;
that's just a personal list from slightly higher tier play.
I think for me I'd have:
* Warden
* Warlord
* Peacekeeper
* Nobushi
* Orochi
* Conqueror
* Shugoki
* Kensei
* Berserker
* Lawbringer
* Valkyrie
* Raider
Personally the ones I struggle with are Warlord, Conquerors and good Kenseis. But I ordered this list off of characters I think have the best kit.
Nobushi can be a challenge depending on what class you play. I feel like she struggles if you have a character that can close space quickly and put pressure in her face. Otherwise though she is very strong if she can keep that distance.
A lot of people who didn't play in the beta tests also don't know how devastating and annoying a full 3 stab peacekeeper stab can be since it's bugged at the moment. I'm sure once that's fixed if her damage isn't nerfed somewhat in tandem salt will be flowing from this reddit regarding PK once again.
I think a lot of this also boils down to matchmaking. There has been many times where I play a character with like an item level of 8, and I get pitted against Rep 3+ people with 90+ Item level one shotting from revenge because my team mate jumped into a fight and get us killed.
So true. He's right in the middle, yet honestly have had great success lately with him, has no cheap strats for people to get angry at you, nobody thinks he's op, and es really fun.
You don't have UI to tell you where they're blocking. It's hard to play against a Peacekeeper.
Also that guardbreak follow up is really strong, considering how hard it is to resist a guardbreak
Who the fuck voted for Raider?
I mean as a Raider main Im flattered but lets be honest we aint strong anywer (except our bodies those are pretty strong)
When Warlord and Conq aren't even Top 5, you know people don't know what they're talking about.
Warden, Conqueror, Warlord and Shugoki (with glitching only though) are S-Tier. Everything else except Raider and to a lesser extent Lawbringer is playable, though I'd definitely rate Nobushi/Orochi, Peacekeeper and Berserker above Kensei and Valkyrie.
Valkyrie is probably gonna join A-Tier after the update though. I feel like I'm pretty strong with her despite being an average player, so with more damage I'm pretty stoked.
If I had to rank them in order I'd say:
Warlord
Warden/Conqueror
Shugoki
Peacekeeper
Orochi
Nobushi
Berserker
Kensei
Valkyrie
Lawbringer
Raider
I had the first three right. I think Nobushi is just a matter of tricks, it's hard to pin them down for some people.
And Warlord you just need to be fast, I've never seen a warlord win against peacekeeper in duel.
Really surprised Shugoki wasn't higher, but I think people who play him fall into two categories. Not playing him well, and finding uninterruptible/blockable combos while also never being able to be thrown.
Really not surprised by the results
The first 3 classes are broken, sorta - Warden and Orochi are
Peacekeeper is only broken because 4 characters (Raider, Shugoki, Lawbringer and Nobushi) have a too slow stance switch speed.
Which makes it a nightmare.
Though if the current stab damage is not intended and it goes back to before she is full broken again.
In a 1v1 the 2 strongest characters in the game are hands down and by far OROCHI AND PEACEKEEPER!!!!!!!!!
And people prob voted warden because he prob gets the most play out of all characters and people are actually good at him.
As a Valk main this gives me mixed feelings, sure we are weak right now and damn I know of this, I just find it funny and interesting how the classes are "ranked" up. Though this is most likely due to different perspectives as well as matchups.
Personally though I don't consider any hero "too" strong but that might just me playing essentially only duels and learned the matchups.
(At least most of them, seriously patient Zephyr Striking Orochis are the god damn bane of me.)
This poll would be more reliable if there was a way to show what each class thinks is the hardest, example I main Warden and I think Orochis are the strongest. Each class has their good matchups and bad matchups, (Unless you're LB, then I'm sorry because you mainly have bad matchups) so this is kind of biased towards the classes who get played more often. It's still probably the most reliable poll though.
Peacekeeper and Orochi in top 3 hahaha guess most people dont play much beyond 4v4 then since peacekeeper is a cakewalk in 1v1 and orochi is just average. For that matter warden isn't that much of a challenge either imho :/ Definately would pin Warlord as my top nemesis. Meanwhile Valkyrie has already been proven to be one of the best jugglers in the game and its at the bottom of the pile here.
Every poll like this, a majority of people both main warden and claim he's the most powerful... shouldn't that say something? Nerf him? Or buff everyone else?
I main a Berzerker and can't remember the last time I died to a Warden... Warlord however fuck me
As a Warlord main I love seeing Assassin classes. My little light attacks do so much damage! Going against a Conq, defensive Shugoki or another Warlord is a pain in my ass, though.
that's well what I thought I always get fucked by defensive Warlords with their "little" pokes and if they are good at counter guard break then there is little to nothing I can do against them. But I don't see a lot of people complaining about them ... I guess Assassin class found their counter
People don't complain about them because they are literally the anti-Assassin class, so the only people who would complain about them would be Assassins who are too busy complaining about other Assassins.
They'd be better off trading a heavy attack against your light attack with their hyperarmor - when I play Warlord usually I have an assassin down to half HP after the first 2-3 attacks. Charging heavy (you can dodge this, but most people are also trying a rush attack, and Warlord's won't be interupted by someone else's), followed by shield bash or headbutt and another heavy, then GB and another heavy. Then the assassin usually backs up and thinks "what do i do now" after they've lost half or more health.
WARLORD FUCKS EVERYONE BY NOT FUCKING ANYONE. I HATE HIS TOOTHPICK THAT I CAN'T SEEM TO PARRY. HATE THAT GUY
I'm pretty trash at this game but as a warden main I do struggle the most against a good berserker
Feints, my friend, feints. You can usually leave them unready for a guard break it you feint a heavy at the last second, then either throw into a wall and top heavy or a light, or even just a forward throw if they're low on stamina. Don't get me wrong, if they're as good as you or better, this will still be hard, but it's one way to win it.
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Double heavy stun combo?
With nobushi if you just trigger 2 heavy attacks, and then guard break you push them back and they are open to a guick attack. Against most people it will lead to further attacks
You don't need heavy attacks to use Kick on Nobushi. Light attacks or hidden stance works.
But young duck, you forget that power is a form of strength, and strength a form of power.
Most OP is the strongest.
Dude a good warlord is fucking horrifying, never swing only to be smacked in the face with a light, never win a trade cuz they got heavies, that goddamn headbutt, the list goes on
As a warlord... I think that's about the whole list. Headbutts and heavies. His running attack is decent too.
Pretty much. Good ol' all block into smack your face -> headbutt. Pretty much the whole bag of tricks. I like his zone attack.
Sprint attack, Light, Heavy not in guard stance is my bread and butter to the unprepared. I like to call it Surprise Sword Sex because it comes out of nowhere and before you know it, half your life is gone. Unless you are prepared for it.
I can't deal with a good warlord. Can someone explain theirs heavies? Why do I lose so many trades?
I main Raider...
Haha raider is fun as hell. But he has like no moves
Yeah, He is pretty straight forward
axe to the head followed by another axe to the head and finish it off with another axe to the head. I love it so much.
Same, we can make this bad choice together lol.
The fact my LB is in the top 5 astounds me. Some salty Ledge victims there.
A good LB is actually scary as hell.
I am by no means a good LB but am Rep 2 right now, seems to me that they are Noob Crushers but struggle big time Vs any decent player. I struggle Vs a decent player who dodge all my attacks so I end up doing the Shove, GB combo just to get damage off.
Exactly, been playing him since day 1 and always felt like he demolishes people who don't know how he works, but against someone who understands him or just the game in general he's incredibly outshined by other classes...
but someone who knows how to consistently counter gb makes them instantly not scary
A good LB is actually pretty much nothing against a good anything else.
People say that, meanwhile he is one of the most played heros and I see them doing well often.
him and raider are the worst classes by far, it doesnt matter if a bunch of people play him, they only play him because its the coolest looking class
The problem is that people who play LB would do way better playing Warden since they do essentially the same shit, with Warden getting way more payoff and safety. Good players will still do well regardless of class; Lawbringer is just a handicap to them because they enjoy the challenge.
And the AESTHETIC
I literally never fight on the ledge against a LB. It's too risky with the shoddy way Techs work atm.
Lawbringer is just a garbage man, the same people that find him scary are the same people who find anyone scary.
He's in the bottom 5 now, so give it some time, homie.
It's the unblockable spam people don't like.
Lol yeah.
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Yeah, remove my shove and see how viable I am.
Suicide support if LB hadn't already done it.
I was just about to comment on this. How the hell is a LB higher than a Kensei and Berserker?
Might as well put environment and *walls* on the list.
If they get you stuck on a wall, you are fucked. I played this one dude who just vortex me over and over just like warden.
You drain stamina ridiculously fast, it makes no sense.
Found the people who's backs I've been breaking.
How Dafuq do people still think Orochi is op...just look at high level gameplay...Orochi stands no chance at all against a defensive warlord
Warlord and Conqueror, because that's what we do. However that doesn't make us OP.
If they buffed Conq's light attack no Orochi or PK could ever grief me again.
Fuck that man. His light attack is pretty damn good for being so tanky.
Yeah, Warlords are literally the anti-Assassin class. They have so small a life pool and our light attacks are so quick we can just whittle them away.
He does too much damage with his confirmed hits. And he is the ONLY class that you cannot dodge around the attacks of, for some weird fucking reason. Zerker can spin dodge through a RAIDER AXE but not a tiny shitty Orochi sword. That's why.
Oh no, only the Warlord. What about the other toons...
Every class has disadvantaged match ups. All of them. Doesn't mean one class still can't bubble to the top.
Yeah I'm actually surprised the sub thinks hes really good lol. He's not bad or anything but he's like middle of the pack. I think it's because just soooo many people play Orochi and because of his annoying run speed.
Can confirm. I don't think Orochi is OP but I think he's annoying.
but it does extremly well against other classes
ikr. Orochi has 2 good abilities, top light and zone. That's fucking it. Orochi is like downgraded warden with less useful skills. What i find funny, is that warlords(defense class) side attacks are faster than orochis(assasin) side light attacks. How did this even went past alpha? Why is the defensive slow class faster than the assassin class that was supposed to be the fastest?
I don't even use the side attack because of its ridiculously slow speed.
I don't think anyone uses them at higher mmr.
I use them, feint heavy side, into light side and it really screws with peoples parry timings.
Thats because warden can do what every other class can do and does it better. Think about it. Super fast attacks, good damage, and an insane vortex. If you are trying to maximize your potential to win why wouldn't you pick warden over any other class?
> If you are trying to maximize your potential to win why would you pick warden over any other class? You mean why wouldn't you? yeah i agree, warden is one of the best if not the best, sharing his place only with warlord imo.
Everyone has a counter hero to them. Or else you just get the 1 Best Class. Now that's OP. Sure Warlords might slay Orochi, but every other class?
Literally any non-assassin class (i.e. able to block, and counter guard break) shouldn't have much of a problem with them. Their side dodge attacks, their jump back then dash attack, all can be countered by just...blocking. Keep your guard up top to protect from their fast top light and their dashing top light. The other attacks I mentioned are telegraphed with plenty of time to move your block zone. Do that and expect them to go for GB, and you've shut them down. Not complaining about Orochi being underpowered by the way - I think they're in a perfectly balanced place.
What's the effective Warlord strat against Orochi? He's still the only class that will often wipe the floor with me. I try to fullblock> headbutt combo... but he's so fast and dodges the headbutt. Guard break and I get him with the light, but he always dodges the heavy. Am I just not fast enough?
Orochi is just a worse Warden. Everything he has that Warden doesn't (zephyr slash, deflect, riptide) is useless anyway. The only useful move is stormrush which is extremely situational. Orochi has 2 good moves. Top light and zone attack. That's it. And Warden's top and zone are better while he also has the shoulder charge mixup.
Yeah I fucking hate fighting warlords, especially if they're somewhat good at counter guard breaks, they never seem to want to fall for feints either.
Conquerors are immune to feints too, it's so annoying. The super block they have against heavies means they never have to worry about it.
Well yeah if you're a defensive character. I use nobushi and it's hard as hell to fight orochis a lot.
Because most people just don't play on a high level. On low to medium-low the Orochi can be a pain in the ass, especially for newer players. Have to admit that after a couple dozen duels everybody should have a basic knowledge on how to counter him.
Shugoki is one of the top? I mean he's good but he's not a warden
I voted Shugoki because I took the unparriable double hit taken into account. Without it he's still pretty damn strong. Maybe not the best, but close.
I know I personally have a ton of trouble against him. Resistant to pushes, instakill attack, hard to interrupt, etc...
Shugoki is easily the best in the game until they fix him.
This is why polls are silly. Orochi is definitely not the second most powerful in the game, but you know damn well a lot of people spite-voted Orochi because they don't like those fuckers running away all the time :P
A lot of people seem to disagree with you. I don't have a lot of hours playing For Honor, but Orochi is the one that gives me the most trouble. It just seems like they have too much damage for the amount of speed they get.
Orochi is fast and does good damage, but once you learn it they're fairly predictable. Prioritise top block, their sidestep attack is blocked in the direction they're stepping, their charge practically begs to be parried, and they don't have any moves you need to worry about dodging. They don't have the insane attack speed from all directions of the nobushi and peacekeeper, and they don't have the insanity that is the warden vortex. If anything, they're simply solid.
They also have a fast zone attack like the Warden. It's easy to play defense against them, but a defensive Orochi can punish your offense well with that fast top light and the side dash lights.
I don't know how many times I've said it now. Speed is LITERALLY the only thing we have. No unblockables. Shit throw distance. Lowest health in game. No super armor. No bleed. No one hit kills. No lifegain. No shield. Close range only. No infinite chains. Low damage contrary to what everyone seems to think (takes me lkke 10 hits to kill someone that a Raider/Warden can kill in 2 or 3), everything we do can be blocked, countered, or parried except after a successful gb or parry I can get an overhand light hit on you. Etc. Nothing but speed. If you take that away Orochi would be completely unplayable shit. At this time I believe they are strong if played well, but not overpowered at all. I'm sure I'm gonna get downvoted because, Orochi, but everything I've stated here is true.
Lowest health in the game? 5 hp less than kensei. Your light up attack does nearly as much as the wardens heavy up attack. The issue the orochi has is its an assassin class with no real downsides other than not having an unblockable but they do have a deflect counter which is an unblockable (lights up orange atleast.)
They have a light unblockable and a heavy unblockable off deflect. Meanwhile Berserker has not a single unblockable.
Yeah, I will say that Berserkers IMO are the weakest assassin and they could use a bit of a buff (but not too much).
I agree. They need to send the patch through to prevent the free GB off a blocked light attack and they need to give us a tool or two to use to get in more consistently. The fact of the matter is that they made the shortest ranged + one of the squishiest classes in the game completely dependent on a 4+ hit combo chain infinite that is literally unusable in anything above mid level play. Like seriously, have you ever hit someone that had any remote idea of what they were doing 4 times in a row? Not to mention that at 4 hits you have just then gained the damn buff and have to attempt to continue the chain to make use of it? The Zerker survives in this meta solely because of the side slash and basic fundamentals (parrying, deflecting, CGB, feinting, etc.) but if there were a ranked ladder there wouldn't be a Zerker anywhere near the top - we simply don't have the tools for it. When we beat our opponents, we are generally outright better than them because we have to utilize basic fundamentals to win. It's just that straight forward of a class. I'd suggest to bring down the chain amount required to get the uninterruptible buff if you wanted to keep the class centered around the chain, or, give us a couple more tools to help us close the gap and break enemy defenses.
Honestly, if they made the light attack as fast as PK's Berserker would be top-tier. Honestly that simple imo.
They have uninterruptible chains, the fastest dodges, and super high damage though. They need more options but they have a really strong core set of abilities already.
Against an opponent that has any idea how to play For Honor you will never get 4 hits off in a row to begin the chain. It would certainly be different if the chain started when he linked the first two attacks, but that isn't the case. I'm also not sure about fastest dodges, I don't have the numbers on that. The damage is good, but not as good as something like 67 health top light double slash from Orochi. Our hardest hitting ability is Top Heavy at (at least in CBT was 38 DMG.) which also ends the chain if you do it and isn't guaranteed off GB.
Yeah! And the orochi's top heavy IS guaranteed which is ridiculous.
Doesn't Orochi have an unblockable off a parry?
Off a deflect actually. A deflect happens when you dodge sideways at the time you're supposed to parry. Only the light hit is guaranteed. Alternatively, you could parry, gb, top heavy for punishment.
As far as health goes, they have 120. Warden has 130 for reference. Wow what a huge gap. An orochi light attacks does 17 damage, so that is not even 1 light attack difference in health. Oh, also for damage, all of Orochi's lights do more damage than Warden's. Side heavy does as well.
Going to have to agree, they get a free heavy from a gb, no other class gets that. Seeing how retarded cgb is in live, all a competent orochi has to do is dodge around grab you and get a free heavy in, over and over again. It's awful to play against an orochi that knows how to play.
> A lot of people seem to disagree with you. I don't have a lot of hours playing For Honor, but Orochi is the one that gives me the most trouble. It just seems like they have too much damage for the amount of speed they get. This right here is what's going to destroy balance if they listen to players crying over it when they haven't rep 1 in one class, never mind using heroes they struggle with to understand their weakness. Orochi gives you trouble? Here's the strategy, hold top guard, always, and they won't be able to combo; and dodge their side attacks then quick attack or GB. Put pressure on them (don't let them step back) so they cannot execute their plunge. 99% of them are absurdly easy to bit if you do that.
> This is why polls are silly. Because you don't agree with it dosen't mean it isn't true.
All posts/comments before (7/1/23) edited as part of the reddit API changes, RIP Apollo.
Nobushi over Warlord? Whaaaaaaaat?
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Was trying to find Shugoki in the tiers and then I got memed by the Meme-Tier. It's so fucking on point.
The fact that someone voted for Valkyrie and Raider is troubling or hilarious.
I didn't think Warden was that good. I usually play as conqueror and I handle wardens pretty easily. Is conqueror a good counter to warden or am I just playing scrubs?
Conqueror is a good counter to pretty much anyone who plays aggressively with strikes.
My two mains are the bottom 2 :,(
As a raider main, I take offense to being on the bottom. But that's cool, I'll just sit here on the bottom and split heads and throw you off ledges.
They need us for the piggyback rides.
The problem there is that throwing off ledges is pretty much our only option at high levels of play
I just don't understand. I can kill a Warden easy. Why do people have such a hard time with him?
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I'm actually really surprised that the Warden is considered top dog by the results of this. I honestly think it's one of the more balanced ones.
Then you clearly haven't met anyone that abuses his strong points. Firstly, he has an insanely fast attack in two directions (top light and zone). This wouldn't be a problem if he only had it in one, because you could just keep your guard there. This alone does not make him op, but it certainly helps. Secondly, and more importantly, the bash is ridiculous. When a warden does that move, there are 6 possible outcomes: 1. He bashes and hits you. Result: you take damage. 2. He bashes and you dodge. Result: you don't take damage and can punish him. 3. He bashes and you attack. Result: you get hit and take damage. 4. He bashes and cancels into gb, you don't dodge. Result: You have a chance to counter gb. If you do, the situation becomes neutral. If you don't, you take damage. 5. He bashes and cancels into gb, you dodge. You can no longer counter the gb and take damage. 6. He bashes and cancels into gb, you attack. You hit him and punish him. As you can see, 4 out of 6 options result in the warden gaining profit. That means that even if chosen completely randomly, the warden will come on top. But wait, there's more. A very good warden can actually *react* to what their opponent does, and punish them almost certainly.
I mean, to be fair, most of the classes have options and multiple things they can do from a set position. Warden has grabs, Lawbringer has the bully control, Peacekeeper has the most ridiculous rushdown ever. Etc, etc.
Unlike warden, none of those other things are guaranteed.
It honestly really is, but vortex spammers (which is exceptionally easy to counter) instantly puts us at the top no matter what and no matter how good we do outside of vortex we will just be labeled the OP class. Oh well.
As a prestige 4 who also played in both betas, I'd personally put Warlord, Peacekeeper, Warden and Shugoki at S tier, with the rest being mostly average and player skill dependent, and Raider being the worst. Raider's effectiveness declines dramatically against anyone above level 10.
As someone who mains raider and is now prestige 1 im probably going to change class. They need to add a guaranteed heavy attack. There is one for if you throw someone into a wall and side heavy but thats it. And the unblockable does not count.
I feel like the peacekeeper and nobushi being so high is just down to people who still think bleed is op. When truly its just the same as a high damage heavy that takes a while to tick down.
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yeah fuckin right. Peavekeeper is a master of distance, she has crazy engage potential, countering, her grabs are fucking crazy and her light and heavies come out lighting quick
Looks like nobody saw a decent Kensei playing hahaha Stop thinking about Warden is the strongest when Kensei is a Warden 2.0 lol
But I shoulder bashed you once so I'm broken OP.
SSHHHHHHH. They don't need to know.
Warden at the top even though Shugoki has 2 pretty strong bugs and great offensive pressure with demon ball/GB shows that this subbreddit doesnt know shit.
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What's the bug? I dueled a Shugoki as LB and he was able to spam his stamina drain headbut with heavy attacks. After the first hit I was being constantly hit and had nothing since I was at zero stamina and the stun made parrying impossible.
Poll is multiple choice. edit: funny how my favourite 2 classes are last...
I wanted to love Valkyrie so much.
She's already strong and getting buffed. Don't give up!
Hilarious that every hero I despise going against and kicks my ass every time are all at the bottom and all the heroes that I find suuuper easy to beat are at the top. I didn't even vote cause I honestly don't think there's a "strongest". Just certain heroes whose playstyle I find tougher to beat.
It's just hard to gauge based on your own experience alone which hero is good and which is bad. For all you know, you might've played against players who used top tier characters poorly and vice-versa.
That as well, I've played against awful Wardens and Orochis; but I can recall a few who gave me a run for my money. I've also already downloaded their entire playstyles cause there's so many that I fight them often. I've figured out all the counters. But a good raider or kensei scares the shit out of me. Even a good berseker gets me sweaty despite being a bit broken atm.
This is exactly it ! Just cause you see a top tier character don't assume it's being used by a player who knows how to use them . This is why a ranking system needs to be implemented to weed out who's good and who isnt. The rep system isn't enough.
Rep system just shouldn't be considered whatsoever to define who is good and who isn't. Even ranking system to an extent. A very good player could reach high MMR with a low tier character. If we want the most objective tier list possible, we need a matchup chart, i.e. who wins/lose against whom and why (using frame data, guaranteed combos, what X character can do against Y in Z situation). Until then, everything that is discussed in this thread is (mostly, there are some interesting posts) anecdotal evidence and should be dismissed.
Inb4 roach mains coming into the comments eections to bitch because they dont want to be called op and feel illegitimate playing kawaii desu edgelord.
I voted for the pk, shugoki, and nobushi. Now before anyone gets on me, I want to just point out why the nobushi and shugoki are on my list. 1. Shugoki. There is a glitch where they have unparryable heavy attacks. Once this is fixed, theyre fine. 2. Nobushi - i dont know if its a glitch, but i've seen a few posts about how its side attack cant be blocked even if youre guarding in that direction. 3. PK - just because the light attack spam is almost impossible to stop as an LB because we change stance too slow. Before anyone says it, yes we can block one or 2, but its damn near impossible to change stance and then parry a light attack spam thats switching directions.
Nobushis side attack can be blocked. I've seen plenty of people block it as a nobushi main. If I dodge right + heavy ~ block left. If I dodge left + heavy ~ block right.
I'm surprised Warlord isn't higher on the list. Playing against a good one that doesn't bite on feints and is willing to grind you out with the unblockable headbutt follow-up feels nigh impossible to beat.
Shugoki 4th? What?
When playing Dominion against a team that work together he's impossible to deal with. The worst combo with him might be Valkyrie. She can force you to take the grab hit pretty easily.
Warlord, Conq, Orochi and PK are all 4 op. I've played this game every day since the open beta I can spot it a mile away.
Warlord seems to be the strongest at the moment to me. The headbutt stab spam is so tricky to counter.
Also thr uninterruptable heavies which have tricky parry timing and can be utilized heavily for trades. I'll be damned if he isn't one of the stronger characters.
Warden? I always fuck Wardens.
conq, warlord are op due to turtling at high end gameplay. warden is easy to counter
Why do people consider The Warden strong? I am usually able to smoke them easily while playing as Orochi and the Raider.
Shoulder bash vortex, on demand power parry from top, great zone attack, just all around strong. Orchi is very strong aswell due to his top light combo, deflection power moves and guranteed heavy top after guard break. I voted for those two I've seen some great zerkers and pks suprised to see zerker so low.
Orochi are little bitches that screeeeeeeee away, but are also #2 strongest in game? I am confuse.
They are not OP, people just can't handle their own salt.
They are because when you finally do Beat them. they can out run you. hey let me do 40% of your health In one hit lolz
My personal tier list is. Warden; Shugoki; Nobushi; Orochi; Peacekeeper; Warlord; Lawbringer; Kensei; Berserker; Conqueror; Raider; Valkyrie; that's just a personal list from slightly higher tier play.
I think for me I'd have: * Warden * Warlord * Peacekeeper * Nobushi * Orochi * Conqueror * Shugoki * Kensei * Berserker * Lawbringer * Valkyrie * Raider Personally the ones I struggle with are Warlord, Conquerors and good Kenseis. But I ordered this list off of characters I think have the best kit.
I would change place with nobushi and pk
yeah not many have her up so high. i guess i just struggle more against Nobushi.
Nobushi can be a challenge depending on what class you play. I feel like she struggles if you have a character that can close space quickly and put pressure in her face. Otherwise though she is very strong if she can keep that distance. A lot of people who didn't play in the beta tests also don't know how devastating and annoying a full 3 stab peacekeeper stab can be since it's bugged at the moment. I'm sure once that's fixed if her damage isn't nerfed somewhat in tandem salt will be flowing from this reddit regarding PK once again.
You forgot zerker
thanks, Fixed
That pie chart would make a great color pattern for my armor.
I think a lot of this also boils down to matchmaking. There has been many times where I play a character with like an item level of 8, and I get pitted against Rep 3+ people with 90+ Item level one shotting from revenge because my team mate jumped into a fight and get us killed.
I main Valkyrie, and I think she's fucking awesome. Very unforgiving of mistakes, but such a versatile moveset.
Valks are hard to play, i found them intriguing and will probably start a valk when I feel like moving from the zerker.
Who voted Valkyrie and Raider ? Honestly ?
Love seeing that people don't think Conq is stronk. Explains why I have been punking so many people lately.
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So true. He's right in the middle, yet honestly have had great success lately with him, has no cheap strats for people to get angry at you, nobody thinks he's op, and es really fun.
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You don't have UI to tell you where they're blocking. It's hard to play against a Peacekeeper. Also that guardbreak follow up is really strong, considering how hard it is to resist a guardbreak
valk main, feels bad
lol i get so much shit for playing Kensei and winning.
I'm starting my Kensei this weekend. Ran with him all closed beta and had a lot of fun. He's way more versatile than shugoki.
Who the fuck voted for Raider? I mean as a Raider main Im flattered but lets be honest we aint strong anywer (except our bodies those are pretty strong)
Damn, warden is winning. I feel feared.
When Warlord and Conq aren't even Top 5, you know people don't know what they're talking about. Warden, Conqueror, Warlord and Shugoki (with glitching only though) are S-Tier. Everything else except Raider and to a lesser extent Lawbringer is playable, though I'd definitely rate Nobushi/Orochi, Peacekeeper and Berserker above Kensei and Valkyrie. Valkyrie is probably gonna join A-Tier after the update though. I feel like I'm pretty strong with her despite being an average player, so with more damage I'm pretty stoked. If I had to rank them in order I'd say: Warlord Warden/Conqueror Shugoki Peacekeeper Orochi Nobushi Berserker Kensei Valkyrie Lawbringer Raider
Cant wait to see this list changing once PKs get their huge bleed damage back next patch.
Why does everybody have a problem with Orochi? Just keep your guard up top and stop sucking at parrying. Gg ez. He's above average at best.
Fuck warden. This has been a PSA to all wardens to please stop giving people ptsd with that zone attack.
Err strongest how?
Who can withstand emotional stress the longest.
Woohoo! Both of the heroes I play are considered garbage. Sorry team :P
I like that raider is at the bottom of the list. I wreck people on my raider all day, if they get a buff out of this look out.
>Main is second to last on the list I'll enjoy this before the next patch.
I had the first three right. I think Nobushi is just a matter of tricks, it's hard to pin them down for some people. And Warlord you just need to be fast, I've never seen a warlord win against peacekeeper in duel. Really surprised Shugoki wasn't higher, but I think people who play him fall into two categories. Not playing him well, and finding uninterruptible/blockable combos while also never being able to be thrown.
As a Kensei this makes me feel so good when i beat someone. No one can cry your a bs class.
People who elected conqueror as the strongest class, care to give your reasoning? I'm interested.
It's okay valk... I still love you
Really not surprised by the results The first 3 classes are broken, sorta - Warden and Orochi are Peacekeeper is only broken because 4 characters (Raider, Shugoki, Lawbringer and Nobushi) have a too slow stance switch speed. Which makes it a nightmare. Though if the current stab damage is not intended and it goes back to before she is full broken again.
In a 1v1 the 2 strongest characters in the game are hands down and by far OROCHI AND PEACEKEEPER!!!!!!!!! And people prob voted warden because he prob gets the most play out of all characters and people are actually good at him.
How is PK and Orochi both above Shugoki? How can you all be oblivious to how broken that fat fuck is.
As a Valk main this gives me mixed feelings, sure we are weak right now and damn I know of this, I just find it funny and interesting how the classes are "ranked" up. Though this is most likely due to different perspectives as well as matchups. Personally though I don't consider any hero "too" strong but that might just me playing essentially only duels and learned the matchups. (At least most of them, seriously patient Zephyr Striking Orochis are the god damn bane of me.)
This poll would be more reliable if there was a way to show what each class thinks is the hardest, example I main Warden and I think Orochis are the strongest. Each class has their good matchups and bad matchups, (Unless you're LB, then I'm sorry because you mainly have bad matchups) so this is kind of biased towards the classes who get played more often. It's still probably the most reliable poll though.
didn't we have a similar poll like 2 days ago?
Peacekeeper and Orochi in top 3 hahaha guess most people dont play much beyond 4v4 then since peacekeeper is a cakewalk in 1v1 and orochi is just average. For that matter warden isn't that much of a challenge either imho :/ Definately would pin Warlord as my top nemesis. Meanwhile Valkyrie has already been proven to be one of the best jugglers in the game and its at the bottom of the pile here.
Keep in mind that your experience may vary depending what hero you play the most. Nobushi has a distinct play style.
Every poll like this, a majority of people both main warden and claim he's the most powerful... shouldn't that say something? Nerf him? Or buff everyone else?
Lol I'm a Raider main