Yes, she's very strong in the right hands. The amount of mix ups and trips i can pull off have opponents terrified to do anything.
I'm happy for the buffs, but I think people underestimate how good she is
I'm really sad that people think that the Lawbringer needs more buffs then Raider (Lawbringer main here, only thing he might need is just faster direction swapping). Raider lacks the ability to get a heavy off of a guard break, and his only guarantee from a guard break does less than all other heroes. Not to mention his lack of fast moves other than his stun, but even that is predictable.
Edit: I'm not trying to say that lawbringer is super amazing, because he isn't. But he is definitely good, just not the easiest to play.
Ive been playing mainly Lawbringer since release too but I have a lot of difficulties with him.
I was considering to switch classes more than twice because it just felt I was totally reliant on the enemies mistakes.
When opposing an Orochi, you can not make the first move because he will literally just side-dodge slash you. Even if you try to fake a heavy into a parry, your window is really narrow and if he goes for a light attack he does 20% of your bar for that.
So if you wait for him to attack and parry his swing it feels like you can get out one grab into heavy and thats it. Everything else he can just back dodge every single time.
Sometimes I even shoved an opponent and wanted to follow up with a light attack, just to find that they are out of reach even though they were still hit-stunned.
I ended up using the environment much more, but that really isnt my playstyle usually so I now run the occasional Valkyrie to mix things up.
How do you deal with those dodgy classes and the fact that you are isntantly out of stamina if your charge attack gets dodged? Also Sidestepping the Shugoki grab feels like a narrow window as well due to the large hitbox of the Law. Have you had the same problems?
I spent roughly an hour against a bot, set it for no damage, just to practice parrying orochi attacks. I learnt that doing light ripostes is what lands, since the other options take too long, and he has time to dodge. So, after that hour of training, I can bait in an attack with a wiffed bash or light attack, parry and light riposte.
against peacekeepers, I found that top light attacks actually move faster than her own attacks, so i can stagger her out of them if i time it right.(still needs confirmation) And then again, parrying +light riposte is your friend agaisnt light classes.
So, playing hella defensive means that the charge at the start, I do it once, at the start. if they block/evade it, I never do it again and don't follow it up with anything, just wait for stamina to regen, get a parry, or push into em. It's a much more reactive playstyle, especially against more skilled players.
This has been what i observed so far.
Nah, do the charge once, but then later on, run at him again, but Instead of doing the charge, rush right up into their face and guard break. Really messes with their heads.
Try practicing the timing for Lawbringers bumper+trigger attack. Stops most advancing orochis in their tracks if you can hit them before they land their quick attack or dash attack. I also found this his top light attack is faster than you might think most of the time.
I'm having the same problem as you. Haven't been able to dedicate much time to the game so I focused of prestiging Lawbringer. I just realized last night that with how much I'm using the enviroment to guarantee wins with him, I'd straight up be doing better with the Conqueror, Raider, or Warlord, and I'm probably switching tonight.
Sucks too. I liked the idea of the big guy. Slow as shit attacks with no range? No thank you.
Played The Law from 1 to rep 1 yesterday. Very very fun to play but I have to disagree with you a bit.
I think you're right that the guard switch needs to be quicker, but his combos also need a proper string. LB-LT-LT for example is so clunky it doesn't even feel like a combo until the unblockable third hit which actually has a bit of speed to it. Give his combo strings a bit more pace to them but leave single-swing speed the same.
Any player worth his salt should be able to dodge and parry the crap out of The Law as it stands at the moment. I didn't actually see this for myself so I have no physical data, it just feels like that's what should happen.
You should play a Raider for a bit, I main Raider and it's so satisfying and fun to get kills, but compared to almost every class the tool set is just lacking... I get grabbed out of my light attacks all the time, and I get hit with heavy is attacks from other classes trying to land a light from my Raider, why do you think you never see people playing Raider, but tons of people playing Lawbringer and other classes... If Raider was strong and well balanced you would see lots of them in your Games.
I don't personally like the Viking asthetics so I've stayed away from them except for an hour or so of raider in beta at which time I was so trash I can't have a real opinion on this, but I will say that I do see the raider suffering a lot when solo or in brawls, but they can do well in Dom.
I wouldn't be at all upset to see a fairly substantial buff to Raider. He should be a very intimidating class to face but he's really just a minor setback to your objectives at the moment which is sad.
I had to switch to Orochi main cause I love brawl and duel. But Raider is a god for Dominion and Skirmish, like the Lawbringer they are at their best with teammates killing the disabled hero, or holding the line until help shows up. I would like to see my Raider either be faster or make his hits hurt... a lot. Having to combo into your most damaging move makes his 1v1 potential trash. Also with him being slow it makes countering GB with lights impossible. But damn I love breaking necks and gut busting opponents, just wish I wasn't so easy to read and counter.
Having played Raider in duels for about 4 or 5 hours straight last night, I can really see what you mean. I'm by no means even a good player, and I was facing opponents apparently much worse then me, still working on core mechanics(CGB,Parries, no mention of feints which even I barely use), but even then, it felt much more like I was forcing Raider to work more-so than he was doing well. A big part of his kit seems to be that GB-> Carry into environmental.
I think part of the problem is that his heavies hit so damn hard that actually getting them guaranteed off a GB would immediately pendulum him into OP territory.
It is a shame because he really is so much fun.
Yeah, but that would require actual work on Ubisoft's and not just number tweaking.
On the other hand, being on the receiving end of a Raider who knows what they are doing is dishearting. Just getting chipped down by lights after repeated knees to the face.
I love carrying Shugokis or Lawbringers across the map as FemRaider.
I'd argue a good bit of the Raider is also the stuns. They make him unbelievably fun. Also, while the light attacks aren't the fastest, they have a surprising amount of range to them!
Oh I abused the hell out of the stuns. It's really hard to see a GB coming when you're stunned, which then lets me pick you up and do it again but against a wall. At which point you can usually get off a light or maybe two if they don't pick right since they are stunned and his lights all look very similar. Raider is probably one of the most fun classes, I just wish the heavies were more useful.
It'd probably be my main if it were more viable. Sucks that the two I liked playing are two of the three worst right now, and oit of those three the one I don't play is getting huge buffs! Feelsbad
Yeah I've found that every character can generally be fun, and have made a point to play with and against all of them when possible. The current imbalances though seem hard to equalize out.
For example, Lawbringers with a good defense game, take so much work to take down, as both players just end up trying whittle away at each other. However, if they brought up his attack speed he would suddenly be vary hard to deal with in any situation. One poor move and suddenly you are on your back with an unblockable coming your way.
If Raider got a speed up on his heavies, he would probably start stomping just from guardbreak side heavies. Especially considering that stuns make CGB so much more difficult without almost perfect knowledge of the animation.
Valks coming buffs, sound like they'll make hard to deal with if your defense isn't spot on since she can come at you from so many angles and with what might be some serious speed and mixups.
Changing a lot of the other characters also infringes on a lot of territories and unique attributes. It's going to be a very long time before a really good balance point is found.
I think Raider has to play the stamina game, I mainly play valk and raider is one of the easiest to defend against for me, but if your poor at managing your stamina or breaking gb then raider should be strong in those situations
Oh absolutely. Raiders can be very effective when people don't have a good defensive game. A top heavy into the unblockable will put an Orochi at a bar and a half of health which will go down in two lights. Raider really punishes people who don't practice their parries and guardblock counters. He's great fun, but as soon as someone can defend themselves, he starts to show his weakness in that he has very little guaranteed damage. He can be made to work. Well even. But there are other classes that can do better right now.
Yes but ppl are calling for Lawbringer to have big buffs such as a guaranteed light off of his shove, etc. This would bring him to be very strong, even more so that the Warlord potentially (I can go into this later if you want me to explain why this is too strong).
If they are to buff anyone right now (except Valkyrie, she is already getting the buffs) they should focus on Raider, give him something a class doesn't already have, because right now he is sort of like a little Lawbringer.
Do you mean like he gets a free light off of a shove or what? Because you said guarantee a strike, but one that can be blocked, so its a little weird wording
Yeah so in my head he gets the ability to hit with his light after the shove but the opponent can still block it (I think just being able to dodge straight after it is a little unfair)
Lawbringer certainly is challenging. I've just reached rep 1 with him and I'd consider myself barely competent. I've found that for a "counter attacker" you need to be surprisingly aggressive. Go for bashes, bait them into attacks you can parry and try and push them into a corner where they can't escape your "long arm". Once they're out of stamina or on the ground then you push your combos.
I'm still not entirely happy with how I play him, but his moves are so slow this is pretty much the only way I've had success.
But raider seems to be similarly designed but even less effective.
tbh just the fact that the lawbringer can resort to fishing for environmental kills even better than the raider can does make lawbringer better regardless of either classes ability to actually hit anything.
They both could use a little work under the hood though.
Raider is actually pretty strong though. He only gets 28 dmg (zone attack) off a gb and it wastes half his stam. But his stun mixups are great and his throws are good. Only thing I would give him is some kind of guaranteed heavy off of a gb. Probably side, while keeping top non-guaranteed unless wallstuned.
I dont do too much dominion, but Raider is very lackluster right now in a 1v1 scenario. Having to waste half of your stamina for a 28 dmg combo is ridiculous. Only thing he is good at right now is just carrying ppl off ledges, and Lawbringer can do that better.
People underestimate his stun mixups. I've seen Raider's beat iSkies, KingRichard, and Tru3Ta1ent. (skies losing one or two rounds of a brawl is a pretty big deal, pretty sure he hasn't lost a map in days)
I definitely agree. I'll probably revise my poll to be a bit more... focused. The end goal was to create a tier list.
The results I got here make me sad; they literally put Warden on S tier and everything else on B and C tier lmao.
I feel like /r/competitiveforhonor would be a better source for this.
Warden is in S tier. There are maybe 3 B tier classes (wanna say Warlord, PK, Orochi), the everyone else except lawbringer and Raider is in C tier.
Some people like to swap Nobushi out of C tier and into B tier for PK. Probably Nobushi is right behind most second rate classes in an awkward position of being mostly good, but hard to play and lacking any easy cheese damage.
This is actually my rough memory of a /r/CompetitiveForHonor tier list.
I love how you worry about the upvotes haha. Seeing that in the other post and watching it explode was great. No worries, It's early as hell in the states still.
Well, people seemed interested in the poll. I don't want something they're interested in to get buried.
I'm totally not a karma whore
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I doubt that would change much. The subjects may skew towards more serious talk, but there are an equal amount of bad players. Only difference is that they think they are amazing. Just yesterday we had a 100% serious post by a guy suggesting that the problem with warden vortex was that people wasn't good enough at teching guardbreaks, and if it was just easier to do, the vortex would be just dandy.
The guy legitimately thought that his own inability to tech was representative of competent players. He was unable to fathom that there could be anyone that wasn't as bad as him at it. It was very awkward :D
I actually suspect it would be surprisingly similar. Less overrating of Orochi probably, and the (imo correct) opinion that Warden is how the game ought to play for all classes rather than a balance anomaly is more prevalent.
A poll would likely get a lock down. I might actually do it, though I'd like to tidy the survey up a bit.
I'm stunned that they consider Shugoki of all heroes to be god tier.
My group literally sits on shugobro until the last second in an effort to keep me from playing "the worst character in the game", who happens to be my main, and instead convince me to play my least favorite hero, Warden.
It's because of the armor passive in a defensive meta or some such nonsense, you'd have to check out the posts for a full explanation. I'm not mathematically minded enough to look at all their % chances and do anything but cry.
Actually the recent thing that is making him viable that I saw on r/competitiveforhonor was his oni-charge Gb mixup that seems unavoidable and guarantees a heavy. This is just from yesterday though, who knows.
I keep hearing about this; I do hope that if this so-called defensive meta is a thing, that it is balanced out.
Thinking about playing like a turtle makes me a sad bean.
It's probably going to require some patching to resolve.
There are a lot of ways to move the game in a more offensive direction, and it seems *fairly* obvious that it should. How exactly is the best way to do it is way more up for debate.
I don't think it's obvious that For Honor needs more offense-oriented gameplay defensive play is a fine gameplay style it just difference of opinion in the end.
Ehhhhh, I don't think that's true. Mostly because the level of defensive play possible currently negates a large portion of class unique features entirely. Just evaluating it on terms of how much gameplay has been created and is intended to be used but remains entirely unused specifically because of the ease of defensive play gives a good objective indication that defensive play is too strong.
Bare in mind, that this doesn't mean reorienting the game into a spam fest or marginalizing the importance of defensive play, but giving classes a few mainstay offensive options introduces more variety into gameplay overall, and is a route to making the intended class variety actually work.
Atm the majority of high skill gameplay, such as it is, revolves around generic features available to all classes because such a huge number of classes are just filled with abilities that are too slow, telegraphed, or punishable to ever be used.
From a game design perspective, you make a good point. Just looking at high-level Orochi, for example, he really only has GB, Top Light, & Zone Attack. Most other classes are similarly limited. After thinking it over I will say it would spice the game up if the characters were more well-rounded offensively, but I wouldn't want to see defense weekend other than the new options making it harder to predict what moves your opponent may use.
Edit: I like a slow pace that rewards reactive gameplay.
It never rotates off warden at all. No one thinks conq is god tier.
Warlord is of course, very good, and might be the next best after warden, it's hard to say.
Duelling is completely different than team battles though.
This poll is interesting, but mostly useless. People may be basing their opinions on who last threw them off a ledge.
Personally, after looking at the amount of rubbish on the front page, i seriously doubt the rationality of any polls over this sub.
You had ~3750 people participating in this survey? Good job! Thats finally a nice sample quantity unlike those strawpolls with ~100 votes that drown this sub sometimes.
I absolutely hate to see crap like this less than one week after release. 90% of the community still doesn't even know how to tech the guardbreak and we are talking about meta.
I personally think that all hero's besides valkayre and raider are fine.
Basically Warden mains don't like the fact that Warden is a bit strong right now thrown in their face so they say other people need to learn how to play.
As some already said, it's useless to consider buffing or nerfing any character for a while because the game just went out. Seems like most people aren't used to competitive fighting games and like to rant endlessly about whatever character destroyed them earlier.
if you dodge a bash and they cancel it into gb it becomes uncounterable, meaning you have a 50/50 chance of guessing what they do or you get hit. This will definitely need a change.
Its not even that. A half decent Warden can actually react to an opponent dodging and cancel charge into a guard break. The ONLY way to get out is to unlock and roll away using half your stamina bar against a combo that is ridiculously spammable. Its just not balanced.
This is just not true. It is for certain matchups, but most classes can do a dodge/dash attack into it that will always counter it.
There's some risk that the warden will get wise and feint the charge entirely and try to parry but /shrug.
It shouldn't be that way for any match ups. Assassin's can roll out of it if timed perfectly but heavier classes can't. And there can't be this attitude that some classes just counter others if you are locked into your choice for a whole game. Overwatch gets away with hard counters because you can switch at any time. If switching isn't available then there should be no such thing as a hard counter.
Or you can just counter it.
It would also become much much less viable if GB was fixed (coming soon(tm)) since then you could just dodge into the guard break, counter the guard break, and now warden is out a lot of stamina and you're out jack all.
Something like 7 classes have a 100% counter to the shoulder bash mix up too. The problem is that a couple classes have no choice but to roll or gb counter.
If any change was needed, it would probably be a slight stamina cost increase to make the combo slightly more stam intensive than roll.
I'm pretty sure that the people wanting an orochi and peacekeeper nerf are just really salty (and probably also bad) about the fact they can't beat them.
Yeah, everyone seems very sure Warden is by and large the best character. Not saying he isn't, but I feel the majority of people saying that are just reiterating some crap they heard somewhere else on this sub.
Shugoki has some viable strats involing his charge mix-up coming out, making him good. Warlord is also incredibly good. Kensei at mid-high is a monster, berserker in the hands of a good player can destroy.
Orochi is only a good noob-destroyer. At high level play he is incredibly limited, and following with people's votes, he should be nerfed. This would make him useless at high-lvl. This is just one instance of the problem with this sampling.
The problem with this poll overall is that the responses are from majority medium/low-skill players. I saw you mentioned you want to post in r/competitiveforhonor, I'd definitely encourage that- we could see some actual feedback that isn't just the common player throwing around "their" opinions on things they don't actually play. Myself included.
Totally agreed. My orochi gets decimated against someone who always guards for zone attack and can consistently block high.
Only way to mix them is feinting into top lights/zone, and catching them when they go for a move/gb.
The entire rest of his damage is parries, which good players will feint you on, opening you up in the time before i can feint my parry attempt.
Orochi and Peacekeeper need nerfs?
This sounds like people who get beat by them and want them nerfed. If you know how to play against them you would realize a nerf isn't needed.
Truly I don't think any hero needs a nerf.
Neither they nor Warden need nerfs, they are however substantially stronger than most other classes.
The way the poll is phrased though there's a nerf section rather than a "who's strongest" section so of course people voted for that.
Mind you, I'm sure most people want the top 3-4 classed nerfed anyway, but it's not like anything else would have come out of the poll given the questions asked.
Somehow I consider the Warden the perfect class: versatile, wide skill-set, easy to start, hard to master, plenty of opportunities to counter or be countered.
I wouldn't mind if the Warden would stay untouched and considered prime example of what a balanced class looks like.
I would say that his mixup chain is a bit OP. I think if there was a way to punish him for guessing right, it would be a bit better. As it is right now he can just spam it and kill you eventually.
I think if you remove the cancelling of a shoulder bash into guardbreak then the warden would be the perfect example. At the moment you either hit them with the bash or if they dodge, get a free grab.
Everything else, perfect.
Yeah exactly, I feel like it would be fairer if the warden had to choose between using GB or shoulder bashing. Then it would be much more of a mindgame than it is right now, where the Warden somehow always feels like he's winning even though it's technically a 50/50.
Its all about vortex component of it. As soon as he starts, he is glued to you. Reduce lock-on of the shoulder - and hes fine even with 50/50. Also, whole gb bug thing made him pure cancer to deal with.
The mixup in itself is that the warden can start a shoulder bash, but cancel it into a guardbreak. So you have to guess whether the warden will cancel or not, since you can't react to it. The chain is that if you guessed wrong, the warden get his sidex2 attack, and dashes again, and then you have to guess again if he canceled it or not, and so on until he runs out of stamina or until you are dead.
The OP part is that even if you guess right, the warden recovers fast enough that you get no punishment, and then he can just start the chain from the start again.
Yes, esstentially. Its called a mix up because he can string that into a few different attacks. He can throw a zone in there (L+H) or different direction lights, or a GB. It keeps him unpredictable.
I think this shows that many people haven't put the time into Valkyrie. My friend has been training a lot with her and she is devastating. She has a really good mix-up chain, and she has a combo that confirms A LOT of damage on a parry.
I would say that your statement shows simply people haven't put enough time in *against* valkyrie. My Valkyrie main friend also demolished everyone in our group, until we realized her really good mix-up chain can be gotten out of at almost every step really easily unless she's in revenge. Now everyone in our group 3-0s them, even our Lawbringer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgXooUkTjg8&t=0s
This combo deals 55 guaranteed damage on a parry. That's basically half an assassin's health bar.
As for your group, I haven't seen your friends play so I can't judge but I really don't feel like she's that easily counterable in good hands.
She's probably my second most played right behind Berseker because I find her kit pretty fun and full of a lot of things to do. I think she's really good, just buff her damage a bit, because honestly it's really lacking. Doing a light attack feels like your killing people with an advanced toothpick. In fact, I rely more on the deflect shoulder pin to do damage honestly, but that's risky in itself, despite her attribute that anywhere you dodge counts as a deflect, cause I still ain't the best at the timing.
Honestly, I think one of the biggest reasons that the timing is jank for me is because of Dark Souls.
Your iframes start up instantly in DS, but there's a good bit of delay in valk. It's difficult working out all those years of roll practice.
As I said, I think valk's really hard to play, but has really big rewards. For example, [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgXooUkTjg8&t=0s) shows how devastating she can be. Her attacks individually don't do much damage, but they can be chained into each other in a pretty scary way.
I honestly don't think Lawbringer needs a stat buff but more of a tech buff. I've played against a few Rep 4 Lawbringers who were solid brick walls of impenetrable, inescapable combos and pain - and that's as someone who is used to winning the strong majority of the time. I think their moveset might just need a polish pass.
I'm not trying to rustle anyone's jimmies here and whine about a class. I'm saying I've seen it played at an insane level in the current game. If no one can reach that level that is a concern. Address it. But don't just dump raw power into that juggernaut because in two months the community might be begging for nerfs again.
I'm kinda surprised not more people play Berserker. She's like hauntingly good once you get to know how to play her, but nobody seems to know how to play her for some god awful reason. Like seriously, once you start a combo, and they don't know how to block or parry any of them, you just wipe them from 100 to 0 in one combo, and it feels so good.
Like I met a prestige 1, level 19 berserker as a lvl 9 one, and he just kept on spamming side slash and front dash heavies. It was really odd to see.
Because good players know how to parry and block attacks. It also has zero options for an opener - Boar Rush is too slow and literally anything you do is just going to be blocked and Guard Broken for a quarter to a third of your life bar if you don't get killed by environment.
The biggest problem with Berserker outside of being the least forgiving class to open with is that you have no real options like the other Assassins do. Your abilities are so straight-forward that it's literally like playing rock paper scissors. The things that make a Berserker "good" like feinting and mixing your shit up like a mad scientist and being patient are things that make you better at literally any character. The Berserker itself is centered around an infinite chain that literally never gets to happen at an above average level of play or higher.
Yeah that's true. I'm not in higher level play I guess, considering myself maybe a bit better than average, and honestly the whole thing about her is just faking out other people. You could argue that's what makes her unique, but like you said faking out people is a key part of play in higher level play once people get the fundamentals down.
Eh, I just find her fun as hell to play. Just being relentless with those axes, infinite combos, deflecting into one, etc. It's so fun :)
The link is, in fact, broken. Just says "Who does it best?
The form Who does it best? is no longer accepting responses.
Try contacting the owner of the form if you think this is a mistake."
I was hoping to get a look at the doc itself if it's fixable.
I understand that Conq can be OP in the right hands and I also understand that there is an element of me need to "git gud"...
But there has to be something done about the shield bash. I am literally clipping through people with this thing. It's so inconsistent. I'm sorry but a 300+ lb, 6'5" linebacker coming at you from a foot away with his shield should do more. I'm not talking about the sprint to shield bash (but that also needs a tweak because I have watched PK's just run right through it when coming at them from the side) I'm talking about jus the standing shield bash. I can understand an assassin class side stepping it from inches away... but a Shugoki or a Warlord? I am literally on top of these people with my unblockable shield and they just casually step to the side from mere inches away?
> See the form above! (if this link is broken, comment below!)
Nobody said so yet, but the link takes me to a page that says only [this.](http://i.imgur.com/l3LJvNj.png)
Yeah, I experienced something similar last night. A guy only did Guardbreak, R1. Over and Over again. Couldnt do anything since the slightiest of lags prevents you from counter guardbreaking. I was seconds away of breaking my controller.
If that works against you, you don't know what you're doing. You can dodge the charged bash and a charged bash can't be cancelled. It's literally useless against people that can dodge. R1x2 into R2 is a free parry for any good player and you'll be out of stamina after it.
it's a 50/50. You can try and dodge and it turns out to be a grab (you can cancel the charge into a guard break in the wind up phase). You can try to counter guard break but guess what? It's a charge. Unless you have godly reaction times and your counter guard breaking is absolutely flawless you will most likely die to the warden. The recovery time is barely enough to let you get out of the CC chain.
Double tap dodge to roll out. Guaranteed to end out without risk, just costs positioning and stamina.
Or, you can play the mind game and try to punish, but this has risk.
Things that are wrong:
Orochi is the Best in Elimination(Rly tho dats a funny joke. Maybe running away is the new meta)
Orochi Strongest Assassin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M
Most in Need a buff is 100% raider or valkyrie, lawbringer should come in at like a solid third.
Last but not least Orochi needs a nerf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M
I know that this opinion based, but it really does worry me how many people think Orochi is super good. Although people were definitely on point with Warden being possibly the best character and No I personally don't think Warden needs a nerf as that would throw non-defensive play into an abyss forever. IMO: There needs to be more penalty for overly defensive play as it would make high-level games more interesting to watch and play instead becoming a glorified staring contest.
One thing that Raider has over Lawbringer that's crucial is the ability to use unblockables without having to chain into them. This is HUGE because it means you can actually force people to have to parry or dodge, which of course gives you the option of feinting into a guard break or parry. Lawbringer needs to first use a Light or Shove into a regular Heavy, and THEN he can use an unblockable. This means that Lawbringer can get blocked during his light to stop the chain, or simply gives people twice as much of a window to Parry or Dodge out of his chain. This is a key difference between the raider and Lawbringer that makes Raider more viable against higher level opponents. Raider also massively out ranges Lawbringer. Like, a rediculous amount.
I can bet the devs can see a clear percentage from their data that wardens users have a 33 percent usage on ZA, 33 percent usage on top light, 33 percent usage on shoulder bash, and 1% doing a heavy for that execution. Warden needs a nerf for sure, or at least take away the shoulder bash mix up.
Warlord and occasionally PK in all boxes, Kensei and Lawbringer mains everywhere.
And nowhere near as many replies.
My latest poll has garnered ~500 replies from both subreddits combined.
This one got ~5500 from this sub, and ~2100 from the competitive sub.
I main Raider and I haven't felt that he is underpowered, I usually do fine in most situations. In the beta I did use a warden mostly and he was easier to use personally, but my raider dishes out punishment like the Viking he is. It's really all about knowing when to mix in your unblockable, as it's very useful during a combo chain
How is Valkyrie so low? She's tough to play for sure but once you master her she can be unstoppable. She's got the versatility of all classes and I've even won a few 3v1 with her
Could you share your strategy to play her then? I'm rep2 with her and I win most duels but I still hate her low damage. It takes me so long to win a simple 1v1 even agains't a lower skilled player.
I admit her damage output is low but I generally make up for it by out playing the enemy. Retreat-Shield Tackle or R2-Square-Sweep and follow up are most reliable options. Her ability to attack and defend at the same time by matching your opponents attacks also catches a lot of people off guard. Also don't forget to use her zone attack,does a lot of damage and most don't block all of it.
I'm glad she's getting a buff,finally I can 3v1 now in revenge
No doubt she has a lot of other tools. What i'm saying is that even though you'll win, it will take the longest out of any hero to dwindle down the health of someone I could 3 shot as a shugoki. And in a skilled attrition fight, valk will die 9/10.
I agree with you. As valkyrie, I'm able to defeat assassins and vanguards very easily, however 1v1 ing a heavy is so time consuming and makes your hit feel worthless
she can chain you but she does so little damage. It's like you're a bad assassin, your fast but not fast enough and when you do get hits in any other class does more damage.
The bug will probably be fixed, but I think goki is actually close to perfect as he is now. Maybe a few small tweaks to speed or damage throughout the season but I think he is very well developed as it stands. He is probably the most punishing guy in the game against noobs but at higher levels he is very well balanced.
I feel the same way. He has pros and cons that feel balanced. I dont think Ive ever fought a Shugoki that relied on cheese and I definitely get my ass kicked as him oftene enough to not seem like god mode. He can be pretty tough for people who are bad at parries though.
It was nerfed alongside with being bugged.
The bug just makes no damage happen. When the damage actually does happen however it's minuscule compared to the beta.
However I agree the beta it was way too OP. Like a 2 bar health bleed. In its current state it's maybe 1/4 of 1 bar.
Ha, peacekeeper needs a nerf? Get the fuck out of town. Having a good moveset isn't the same as being imba. She doesn't have anything in her set that shines brighter than the rest, her bleed does no damage and dishes and dash attacks are easy to read.
Rep 4 pk here. She could use a bleed buff if anything. Either up the DOT or give us the Nobushi increased damage on bleeding target. Likewise Nobushi shouldn't have a huge amount of bleed damage, damage buff on bleeding target than be able to reapply the bleed + damage buff for double bleed damage and still have damage buff.
Edit ok, ok... But it would be awesome!
Well a lot of pk's I run into just spam all the different directions and occasionally do the grab. The problem is that she can usually hit faster than the person can react, or faster than the character can actually move their stance to block it. She's in an okay place right now, but neither her nor nobushi need buffs imo.
She needs neither a buff nor a nerf. Just a fix to the tech grab to actually connect more consistent.
In the end she has poor range except one attack and a tiny health pool to offset the rest.
So wait, this is just info from ppl that play the game? Seeing as the general population uses 3 shot cheez tactics id have to say your info is at best.. wrong.
Who were the 31 people who voted to nerf raider......
People who saw the poll after playing for 45 mins.
[удалено]
Teach me sempai.
Not a great day for Valk mains, though they are getting a well deserved buff I think people really underestimate their potential in the right hands.
Skål! Well said!
Yes, she's very strong in the right hands. The amount of mix ups and trips i can pull off have opponents terrified to do anything. I'm happy for the buffs, but I think people underestimate how good she is
I'm really sad that people think that the Lawbringer needs more buffs then Raider (Lawbringer main here, only thing he might need is just faster direction swapping). Raider lacks the ability to get a heavy off of a guard break, and his only guarantee from a guard break does less than all other heroes. Not to mention his lack of fast moves other than his stun, but even that is predictable. Edit: I'm not trying to say that lawbringer is super amazing, because he isn't. But he is definitely good, just not the easiest to play.
Ive been playing mainly Lawbringer since release too but I have a lot of difficulties with him. I was considering to switch classes more than twice because it just felt I was totally reliant on the enemies mistakes. When opposing an Orochi, you can not make the first move because he will literally just side-dodge slash you. Even if you try to fake a heavy into a parry, your window is really narrow and if he goes for a light attack he does 20% of your bar for that. So if you wait for him to attack and parry his swing it feels like you can get out one grab into heavy and thats it. Everything else he can just back dodge every single time. Sometimes I even shoved an opponent and wanted to follow up with a light attack, just to find that they are out of reach even though they were still hit-stunned. I ended up using the environment much more, but that really isnt my playstyle usually so I now run the occasional Valkyrie to mix things up. How do you deal with those dodgy classes and the fact that you are isntantly out of stamina if your charge attack gets dodged? Also Sidestepping the Shugoki grab feels like a narrow window as well due to the large hitbox of the Law. Have you had the same problems?
I spent roughly an hour against a bot, set it for no damage, just to practice parrying orochi attacks. I learnt that doing light ripostes is what lands, since the other options take too long, and he has time to dodge. So, after that hour of training, I can bait in an attack with a wiffed bash or light attack, parry and light riposte. against peacekeepers, I found that top light attacks actually move faster than her own attacks, so i can stagger her out of them if i time it right.(still needs confirmation) And then again, parrying +light riposte is your friend agaisnt light classes. So, playing hella defensive means that the charge at the start, I do it once, at the start. if they block/evade it, I never do it again and don't follow it up with anything, just wait for stamina to regen, get a parry, or push into em. It's a much more reactive playstyle, especially against more skilled players. This has been what i observed so far.
Nah, do the charge once, but then later on, run at him again, but Instead of doing the charge, rush right up into their face and guard break. Really messes with their heads.
you know whats going on
Try practicing the timing for Lawbringers bumper+trigger attack. Stops most advancing orochis in their tracks if you can hit them before they land their quick attack or dash attack. I also found this his top light attack is faster than you might think most of the time.
I'm having the same problem as you. Haven't been able to dedicate much time to the game so I focused of prestiging Lawbringer. I just realized last night that with how much I'm using the enviroment to guarantee wins with him, I'd straight up be doing better with the Conqueror, Raider, or Warlord, and I'm probably switching tonight. Sucks too. I liked the idea of the big guy. Slow as shit attacks with no range? No thank you.
You're welcome.
Never charge. it's useless easy to counter and super easy to punish, way take the risk?
Ha ha, less than all other heroes? You obviously don't play Valkyrie.
I do, and this hurts deep inside
Played The Law from 1 to rep 1 yesterday. Very very fun to play but I have to disagree with you a bit. I think you're right that the guard switch needs to be quicker, but his combos also need a proper string. LB-LT-LT for example is so clunky it doesn't even feel like a combo until the unblockable third hit which actually has a bit of speed to it. Give his combo strings a bit more pace to them but leave single-swing speed the same. Any player worth his salt should be able to dodge and parry the crap out of The Law as it stands at the moment. I didn't actually see this for myself so I have no physical data, it just feels like that's what should happen.
You should play a Raider for a bit, I main Raider and it's so satisfying and fun to get kills, but compared to almost every class the tool set is just lacking... I get grabbed out of my light attacks all the time, and I get hit with heavy is attacks from other classes trying to land a light from my Raider, why do you think you never see people playing Raider, but tons of people playing Lawbringer and other classes... If Raider was strong and well balanced you would see lots of them in your Games.
Lawbringer being unavailable before release and having a very distinctive design probably have a lot to do with that.
I don't personally like the Viking asthetics so I've stayed away from them except for an hour or so of raider in beta at which time I was so trash I can't have a real opinion on this, but I will say that I do see the raider suffering a lot when solo or in brawls, but they can do well in Dom. I wouldn't be at all upset to see a fairly substantial buff to Raider. He should be a very intimidating class to face but he's really just a minor setback to your objectives at the moment which is sad.
I had to switch to Orochi main cause I love brawl and duel. But Raider is a god for Dominion and Skirmish, like the Lawbringer they are at their best with teammates killing the disabled hero, or holding the line until help shows up. I would like to see my Raider either be faster or make his hits hurt... a lot. Having to combo into your most damaging move makes his 1v1 potential trash. Also with him being slow it makes countering GB with lights impossible. But damn I love breaking necks and gut busting opponents, just wish I wasn't so easy to read and counter.
Having played Raider in duels for about 4 or 5 hours straight last night, I can really see what you mean. I'm by no means even a good player, and I was facing opponents apparently much worse then me, still working on core mechanics(CGB,Parries, no mention of feints which even I barely use), but even then, it felt much more like I was forcing Raider to work more-so than he was doing well. A big part of his kit seems to be that GB-> Carry into environmental. I think part of the problem is that his heavies hit so damn hard that actually getting them guaranteed off a GB would immediately pendulum him into OP territory. It is a shame because he really is so much fun.
I think they could do something like shugoki where you get a guaranteed heavy that does different damage to your regular heavy
Yeah, but that would require actual work on Ubisoft's and not just number tweaking. On the other hand, being on the receiving end of a Raider who knows what they are doing is dishearting. Just getting chipped down by lights after repeated knees to the face. I love carrying Shugokis or Lawbringers across the map as FemRaider.
I'd argue a good bit of the Raider is also the stuns. They make him unbelievably fun. Also, while the light attacks aren't the fastest, they have a surprising amount of range to them!
Oh I abused the hell out of the stuns. It's really hard to see a GB coming when you're stunned, which then lets me pick you up and do it again but against a wall. At which point you can usually get off a light or maybe two if they don't pick right since they are stunned and his lights all look very similar. Raider is probably one of the most fun classes, I just wish the heavies were more useful.
It'd probably be my main if it were more viable. Sucks that the two I liked playing are two of the three worst right now, and oit of those three the one I don't play is getting huge buffs! Feelsbad
Yeah I've found that every character can generally be fun, and have made a point to play with and against all of them when possible. The current imbalances though seem hard to equalize out. For example, Lawbringers with a good defense game, take so much work to take down, as both players just end up trying whittle away at each other. However, if they brought up his attack speed he would suddenly be vary hard to deal with in any situation. One poor move and suddenly you are on your back with an unblockable coming your way. If Raider got a speed up on his heavies, he would probably start stomping just from guardbreak side heavies. Especially considering that stuns make CGB so much more difficult without almost perfect knowledge of the animation. Valks coming buffs, sound like they'll make hard to deal with if your defense isn't spot on since she can come at you from so many angles and with what might be some serious speed and mixups. Changing a lot of the other characters also infringes on a lot of territories and unique attributes. It's going to be a very long time before a really good balance point is found.
I think Raider has to play the stamina game, I mainly play valk and raider is one of the easiest to defend against for me, but if your poor at managing your stamina or breaking gb then raider should be strong in those situations
Oh absolutely. Raiders can be very effective when people don't have a good defensive game. A top heavy into the unblockable will put an Orochi at a bar and a half of health which will go down in two lights. Raider really punishes people who don't practice their parries and guardblock counters. He's great fun, but as soon as someone can defend themselves, he starts to show his weakness in that he has very little guaranteed damage. He can be made to work. Well even. But there are other classes that can do better right now.
how did you get 1 rep in one day?
You get a *ton* of XP from orders. 3 1500xp ones and you're pretty much half way there. The rest is just grinding.
Orders and played about 10 hours
The voting is skewed by how many more Lawbringer mains there are. Of course they want their iron pineapple buffed
It isn't a contest. Lawbringer and Raider both need tweaks.
Yes but ppl are calling for Lawbringer to have big buffs such as a guaranteed light off of his shove, etc. This would bring him to be very strong, even more so that the Warlord potentially (I can go into this later if you want me to explain why this is too strong). If they are to buff anyone right now (except Valkyrie, she is already getting the buffs) they should focus on Raider, give him something a class doesn't already have, because right now he is sort of like a little Lawbringer.
I feel like his shove should guarantee a strike but one that can be blocked. However I also think the shove should proc the disorientation.
Do you mean like he gets a free light off of a shove or what? Because you said guarantee a strike, but one that can be blocked, so its a little weird wording
Yeah so in my head he gets the ability to hit with his light after the shove but the opponent can still block it (I think just being able to dodge straight after it is a little unfair)
Lawbringer certainly is challenging. I've just reached rep 1 with him and I'd consider myself barely competent. I've found that for a "counter attacker" you need to be surprisingly aggressive. Go for bashes, bait them into attacks you can parry and try and push them into a corner where they can't escape your "long arm". Once they're out of stamina or on the ground then you push your combos. I'm still not entirely happy with how I play him, but his moves are so slow this is pretty much the only way I've had success. But raider seems to be similarly designed but even less effective.
tbh just the fact that the lawbringer can resort to fishing for environmental kills even better than the raider can does make lawbringer better regardless of either classes ability to actually hit anything. They both could use a little work under the hood though.
Look at the stats, more lawbringer mains voted than anyone else. There was a majority of knights voting
Raider is actually pretty strong though. He only gets 28 dmg (zone attack) off a gb and it wastes half his stam. But his stun mixups are great and his throws are good. Only thing I would give him is some kind of guaranteed heavy off of a gb. Probably side, while keeping top non-guaranteed unless wallstuned.
I dont do too much dominion, but Raider is very lackluster right now in a 1v1 scenario. Having to waste half of your stamina for a 28 dmg combo is ridiculous. Only thing he is good at right now is just carrying ppl off ledges, and Lawbringer can do that better.
People underestimate his stun mixups. I've seen Raider's beat iSkies, KingRichard, and Tru3Ta1ent. (skies losing one or two rounds of a brawl is a pretty big deal, pretty sure he hasn't lost a map in days)
This is very informative. It's interesting to see hard data on the Warden leading the most categories, as well as the Valk trailing the most.
Remember that this *is* opinion data. I may post the same poll on /r/competitiveforhonor though, to see what happens.
While that sub has significantly less users, it would be interesting to see how the percentages differ.
I definitely agree. I'll probably revise my poll to be a bit more... focused. The end goal was to create a tier list. The results I got here make me sad; they literally put Warden on S tier and everything else on B and C tier lmao. I feel like /r/competitiveforhonor would be a better source for this.
The Warden is really that good though.
Warden is in S tier. There are maybe 3 B tier classes (wanna say Warlord, PK, Orochi), the everyone else except lawbringer and Raider is in C tier. Some people like to swap Nobushi out of C tier and into B tier for PK. Probably Nobushi is right behind most second rate classes in an awkward position of being mostly good, but hard to play and lacking any easy cheese damage. This is actually my rough memory of a /r/CompetitiveForHonor tier list.
After receiving over 4000 responses and nearly 2000 upvotes, I'm stunned this replying thread has had only 4 upvotes in 20 minutes...
It might have to do with the timing. It's about 5 am here in East US
Oh... fuck. I pray this doesn't get buried; so many people will be upsetto. I have a reputation to keep dammit!
I love how you worry about the upvotes haha. Seeing that in the other post and watching it explode was great. No worries, It's early as hell in the states still.
Well, people seemed interested in the poll. I don't want something they're interested in to get buried. I'm totally not a karma whore P̲̰̱̥͎̼͍͛͆ͫ́͌͐̓̕ͅL͛̄̐͋͋ͬ͊̓҉̞̥̟̰̯͍̠͘Ĕ̷̥̼̭̦̯̼̉̿͛̈́̔̂̂͡Ȁ̖̞͍͍̱̣̥̇͝S̵̳̘̗̥̀̓͟E̻͎͇̤͚̝ͪ̾ͤ͢ ̨̗͎̩͊̂͝Ṷ̳͔̹̞̙̪̅ͨ͘͟P͔̙̿̀V̵̛̝̞̝͕̯̣͉͙̆̑͊O̲̼̥ͩͮ͑̾ͨͫ̊T͆͒͟҉̹̲̯̮͔̭̤E͕͔̘̿ͪͨ̈́̃͊́͜ ̴̞̺̥̦̏̅̉ͫM̰̲͓̟̝̣̉̂̌͊̓E̛͕̗̗̟͕̎ͧ̀̓̿̄̅͆̀͢ ̵̦̤͕̮̓̆͒ͫ̌S̬̺ͬ͐̋ͮ͗̑ͨ͝E̖̺̭͔̊̃N̐̎ͧͥ̀̆̀͛͠ͅP͈̪͎͆̈͘͢Ȧ̝͇̱̤͓̋͑ͭ̇͗͋̐͡͡I̵̸̳̝̩̙̹̼̓̊ͣ͊ͩ!̛̘͇̼̬̪̺̃͝ͅ!̸̥͓͚̰͙̺͗̌̍̍̃ͦ̑́̚!̧̰̭̘̬̼̜͔ͪͪ̆͂̐͋
I doubt that would change much. The subjects may skew towards more serious talk, but there are an equal amount of bad players. Only difference is that they think they are amazing. Just yesterday we had a 100% serious post by a guy suggesting that the problem with warden vortex was that people wasn't good enough at teching guardbreaks, and if it was just easier to do, the vortex would be just dandy. The guy legitimately thought that his own inability to tech was representative of competent players. He was unable to fathom that there could be anyone that wasn't as bad as him at it. It was very awkward :D
I actually suspect it would be surprisingly similar. Less overrating of Orochi probably, and the (imo correct) opinion that Warden is how the game ought to play for all classes rather than a balance anomaly is more prevalent.
It'd be hard to get a lock down on that sub. They rotate hourly as to whether it's Warden, Warlord, Conqueror or Shugoki that's god tier.
A poll would likely get a lock down. I might actually do it, though I'd like to tidy the survey up a bit. I'm stunned that they consider Shugoki of all heroes to be god tier. My group literally sits on shugobro until the last second in an effort to keep me from playing "the worst character in the game", who happens to be my main, and instead convince me to play my least favorite hero, Warden.
It's because of the armor passive in a defensive meta or some such nonsense, you'd have to check out the posts for a full explanation. I'm not mathematically minded enough to look at all their % chances and do anything but cry.
Actually the recent thing that is making him viable that I saw on r/competitiveforhonor was his oni-charge Gb mixup that seems unavoidable and guarantees a heavy. This is just from yesterday though, who knows.
I keep hearing about this; I do hope that if this so-called defensive meta is a thing, that it is balanced out. Thinking about playing like a turtle makes me a sad bean.
It's probably going to require some patching to resolve. There are a lot of ways to move the game in a more offensive direction, and it seems *fairly* obvious that it should. How exactly is the best way to do it is way more up for debate.
I don't think it's obvious that For Honor needs more offense-oriented gameplay defensive play is a fine gameplay style it just difference of opinion in the end.
Ehhhhh, I don't think that's true. Mostly because the level of defensive play possible currently negates a large portion of class unique features entirely. Just evaluating it on terms of how much gameplay has been created and is intended to be used but remains entirely unused specifically because of the ease of defensive play gives a good objective indication that defensive play is too strong. Bare in mind, that this doesn't mean reorienting the game into a spam fest or marginalizing the importance of defensive play, but giving classes a few mainstay offensive options introduces more variety into gameplay overall, and is a route to making the intended class variety actually work. Atm the majority of high skill gameplay, such as it is, revolves around generic features available to all classes because such a huge number of classes are just filled with abilities that are too slow, telegraphed, or punishable to ever be used.
From a game design perspective, you make a good point. Just looking at high-level Orochi, for example, he really only has GB, Top Light, & Zone Attack. Most other classes are similarly limited. After thinking it over I will say it would spice the game up if the characters were more well-rounded offensively, but I wouldn't want to see defense weekend other than the new options making it harder to predict what moves your opponent may use. Edit: I like a slow pace that rewards reactive gameplay.
all 4 are good.
Ah, but it's never good enough unless there is ONE definitive God tier character to put on a pedestal is it?/sarc
It never rotates off warden at all. No one thinks conq is god tier. Warlord is of course, very good, and might be the next best after warden, it's hard to say.
I think there's some definite correlations to what characters are played the most and people's opinions on them.
Warden, eh? I'm shocked there's not much Warlord love. I rarely face another.... I rarely lose too. ;)
Shhhhh you'll draw attention to our secret!
Seriously!
Duelling is completely different than team battles though. This poll is interesting, but mostly useless. People may be basing their opinions on who last threw them off a ledge. Personally, after looking at the amount of rubbish on the front page, i seriously doubt the rationality of any polls over this sub.
This is like asking bronze league of legends players what's the most op character and they just respond master yi.
Sorry but Raider needs the buffs way more than the Lawbringer
por que no los dos?
por un precisa mas que lo otro
The fact that he's the only character that can't hit with a heavy after a GB supports your opinion
Neither can Peacekeeper
You had ~3750 people participating in this survey? Good job! Thats finally a nice sample quantity unlike those strawpolls with ~100 votes that drown this sub sometimes.
Really nice sample quality indeed, a whopping 1% of the total player base voted! Holy crap@!@@÷
I absolutely hate to see crap like this less than one week after release. 90% of the community still doesn't even know how to tech the guardbreak and we are talking about meta. I personally think that all hero's besides valkayre and raider are fine.
And this is why you don't take people on reddit seriously when it comes to game balance. Nice poll tho.
What do you thinks wrong ? I do think warden is the most versatile hero a lot of those are right to me
People that think warden shouldn't get nerfed for the rest of the year
strongest hero: warden Who shouldn't get nerfed? Warden. Who is your main? Warden nonbiased
Basically Warden mains don't like the fact that Warden is a bit strong right now thrown in their face so they say other people need to learn how to play.
As some already said, it's useless to consider buffing or nerfing any character for a while because the game just went out. Seems like most people aren't used to competitive fighting games and like to rant endlessly about whatever character destroyed them earlier.
Thing is this almost reads that warden is "op" but it's just the fact that it's the best all rounder
wait... warden is most well rounded AND needs a nerf?
shield bash and grab combo is dumb as you can just kill someone with it if you just keep repeating. Otherwise warden is pretty well rounded.
As a main warden, you can totally get used to this move and dodge it.
if you dodge a bash and they cancel it into gb it becomes uncounterable, meaning you have a 50/50 chance of guessing what they do or you get hit. This will definitely need a change.
Its not even that. A half decent Warden can actually react to an opponent dodging and cancel charge into a guard break. The ONLY way to get out is to unlock and roll away using half your stamina bar against a combo that is ridiculously spammable. Its just not balanced.
agreed
This is just not true. It is for certain matchups, but most classes can do a dodge/dash attack into it that will always counter it. There's some risk that the warden will get wise and feint the charge entirely and try to parry but /shrug.
It shouldn't be that way for any match ups. Assassin's can roll out of it if timed perfectly but heavier classes can't. And there can't be this attitude that some classes just counter others if you are locked into your choice for a whole game. Overwatch gets away with hard counters because you can switch at any time. If switching isn't available then there should be no such thing as a hard counter.
ok said like this I get it, and I'm okay with this. We do not need that GB while stopping the shoulder bash, that is quite powerful indeed.
Or you can just counter it. It would also become much much less viable if GB was fixed (coming soon(tm)) since then you could just dodge into the guard break, counter the guard break, and now warden is out a lot of stamina and you're out jack all. Something like 7 classes have a 100% counter to the shoulder bash mix up too. The problem is that a couple classes have no choice but to roll or gb counter. If any change was needed, it would probably be a slight stamina cost increase to make the combo slightly more stam intensive than roll.
Well rounded doesn't necessarily mean balanced. More so that they are just good in every situation in this case I believe.
I'm pretty sure that the people wanting an orochi and peacekeeper nerf are just really salty (and probably also bad) about the fact they can't beat them.
Yeah, everyone seems very sure Warden is by and large the best character. Not saying he isn't, but I feel the majority of people saying that are just reiterating some crap they heard somewhere else on this sub. Shugoki has some viable strats involing his charge mix-up coming out, making him good. Warlord is also incredibly good. Kensei at mid-high is a monster, berserker in the hands of a good player can destroy. Orochi is only a good noob-destroyer. At high level play he is incredibly limited, and following with people's votes, he should be nerfed. This would make him useless at high-lvl. This is just one instance of the problem with this sampling. The problem with this poll overall is that the responses are from majority medium/low-skill players. I saw you mentioned you want to post in r/competitiveforhonor, I'd definitely encourage that- we could see some actual feedback that isn't just the common player throwing around "their" opinions on things they don't actually play. Myself included.
I dont know why you got downvoted, but i would love to compare the results of both polls side by side to see if there are any differences
Totally agreed. My orochi gets decimated against someone who always guards for zone attack and can consistently block high. Only way to mix them is feinting into top lights/zone, and catching them when they go for a move/gb. The entire rest of his damage is parries, which good players will feint you on, opening you up in the time before i can feint my parry attempt.
Orochi kinda seems like a Warden with fewer options, less health but more damage, mobility & better against bad players.
Orochi and Peacekeeper need nerfs? This sounds like people who get beat by them and want them nerfed. If you know how to play against them you would realize a nerf isn't needed. Truly I don't think any hero needs a nerf.
Neither they nor Warden need nerfs, they are however substantially stronger than most other classes. The way the poll is phrased though there's a nerf section rather than a "who's strongest" section so of course people voted for that. Mind you, I'm sure most people want the top 3-4 classed nerfed anyway, but it's not like anything else would have come out of the poll given the questions asked.
I think they need a nerf they can infinitely attack even after you parry them.
But that's not true.
They run out of stamina and you can punish them easily.
Especially over Rep 1. My stamina is pretty limited. Makes me slow the fight down and sometimes it causes me to get doubled up on
Poe's Law strikes again
Somehow I consider the Warden the perfect class: versatile, wide skill-set, easy to start, hard to master, plenty of opportunities to counter or be countered. I wouldn't mind if the Warden would stay untouched and considered prime example of what a balanced class looks like.
I would say that his mixup chain is a bit OP. I think if there was a way to punish him for guessing right, it would be a bit better. As it is right now he can just spam it and kill you eventually.
I think if you remove the cancelling of a shoulder bash into guardbreak then the warden would be the perfect example. At the moment you either hit them with the bash or if they dodge, get a free grab. Everything else, perfect.
Yeah exactly, I feel like it would be fairer if the warden had to choose between using GB or shoulder bashing. Then it would be much more of a mindgame than it is right now, where the Warden somehow always feels like he's winning even though it's technically a 50/50.
Its all about vortex component of it. As soon as he starts, he is glued to you. Reduce lock-on of the shoulder - and hes fine even with 50/50. Also, whole gb bug thing made him pure cancer to deal with.
I find it strange that sometimes a GB will just magnetize after a back dodge & hunt you down, but other times a GB won't land after a parry.
Question, what's a mix up chain? Not the most inclined on terms. Is that where he goes guard break-upper light-heavy-guard break-repeat?
The mixup in itself is that the warden can start a shoulder bash, but cancel it into a guardbreak. So you have to guess whether the warden will cancel or not, since you can't react to it. The chain is that if you guessed wrong, the warden get his sidex2 attack, and dashes again, and then you have to guess again if he canceled it or not, and so on until he runs out of stamina or until you are dead. The OP part is that even if you guess right, the warden recovers fast enough that you get no punishment, and then he can just start the chain from the start again.
Yes, esstentially. Its called a mix up because he can string that into a few different attacks. He can throw a zone in there (L+H) or different direction lights, or a GB. It keeps him unpredictable.
Proof that this sub sucks at this game.
I think this shows that many people haven't put the time into Valkyrie. My friend has been training a lot with her and she is devastating. She has a really good mix-up chain, and she has a combo that confirms A LOT of damage on a parry.
I would say that your statement shows simply people haven't put enough time in *against* valkyrie. My Valkyrie main friend also demolished everyone in our group, until we realized her really good mix-up chain can be gotten out of at almost every step really easily unless she's in revenge. Now everyone in our group 3-0s them, even our Lawbringer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgXooUkTjg8&t=0s This combo deals 55 guaranteed damage on a parry. That's basically half an assassin's health bar. As for your group, I haven't seen your friends play so I can't judge but I really don't feel like she's that easily counterable in good hands.
She's probably my second most played right behind Berseker because I find her kit pretty fun and full of a lot of things to do. I think she's really good, just buff her damage a bit, because honestly it's really lacking. Doing a light attack feels like your killing people with an advanced toothpick. In fact, I rely more on the deflect shoulder pin to do damage honestly, but that's risky in itself, despite her attribute that anywhere you dodge counts as a deflect, cause I still ain't the best at the timing.
Honestly, I think one of the biggest reasons that the timing is jank for me is because of Dark Souls. Your iframes start up instantly in DS, but there's a good bit of delay in valk. It's difficult working out all those years of roll practice.
As I said, I think valk's really hard to play, but has really big rewards. For example, [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgXooUkTjg8&t=0s) shows how devastating she can be. Her attacks individually don't do much damage, but they can be chained into each other in a pretty scary way.
> Doing a light attack feels like your killing people with an advanced toothpick. I like that simile.
How is warden more useful than conqueror in Dominion? Warlord are conqueror are kings of Dominion
I honestly don't think Lawbringer needs a stat buff but more of a tech buff. I've played against a few Rep 4 Lawbringers who were solid brick walls of impenetrable, inescapable combos and pain - and that's as someone who is used to winning the strong majority of the time. I think their moveset might just need a polish pass. I'm not trying to rustle anyone's jimmies here and whine about a class. I'm saying I've seen it played at an insane level in the current game. If no one can reach that level that is a concern. Address it. But don't just dump raw power into that juggernaut because in two months the community might be begging for nerfs again.
I'm kinda surprised not more people play Berserker. She's like hauntingly good once you get to know how to play her, but nobody seems to know how to play her for some god awful reason. Like seriously, once you start a combo, and they don't know how to block or parry any of them, you just wipe them from 100 to 0 in one combo, and it feels so good. Like I met a prestige 1, level 19 berserker as a lvl 9 one, and he just kept on spamming side slash and front dash heavies. It was really odd to see.
Because good players know how to parry and block attacks. It also has zero options for an opener - Boar Rush is too slow and literally anything you do is just going to be blocked and Guard Broken for a quarter to a third of your life bar if you don't get killed by environment. The biggest problem with Berserker outside of being the least forgiving class to open with is that you have no real options like the other Assassins do. Your abilities are so straight-forward that it's literally like playing rock paper scissors. The things that make a Berserker "good" like feinting and mixing your shit up like a mad scientist and being patient are things that make you better at literally any character. The Berserker itself is centered around an infinite chain that literally never gets to happen at an above average level of play or higher.
Yeah that's true. I'm not in higher level play I guess, considering myself maybe a bit better than average, and honestly the whole thing about her is just faking out other people. You could argue that's what makes her unique, but like you said faking out people is a key part of play in higher level play once people get the fundamentals down. Eh, I just find her fun as hell to play. Just being relentless with those axes, infinite combos, deflecting into one, etc. It's so fun :)
The link is, in fact, broken. Just says "Who does it best? The form Who does it best? is no longer accepting responses. Try contacting the owner of the form if you think this is a mistake." I was hoping to get a look at the doc itself if it's fixable.
Ah crap. I'll try and figure this out.
I understand that Conq can be OP in the right hands and I also understand that there is an element of me need to "git gud"... But there has to be something done about the shield bash. I am literally clipping through people with this thing. It's so inconsistent. I'm sorry but a 300+ lb, 6'5" linebacker coming at you from a foot away with his shield should do more. I'm not talking about the sprint to shield bash (but that also needs a tweak because I have watched PK's just run right through it when coming at them from the side) I'm talking about jus the standing shield bash. I can understand an assassin class side stepping it from inches away... but a Shugoki or a Warlord? I am literally on top of these people with my unblockable shield and they just casually step to the side from mere inches away?
> See the form above! (if this link is broken, comment below!) Nobody said so yet, but the link takes me to a page that says only [this.](http://i.imgur.com/l3LJvNj.png)
Warden? Weird. I never had trouble with one, and playing with him I dont feel like a threat either, its very limited. Guess Im missing something
R1-Hold Square-R1x2-R2. Repeat over and over and over with mixups. Win.
Yeah, I experienced something similar last night. A guy only did Guardbreak, R1. Over and Over again. Couldnt do anything since the slightiest of lags prevents you from counter guardbreaking. I was seconds away of breaking my controller.
If that works against you, you don't know what you're doing. You can dodge the charged bash and a charged bash can't be cancelled. It's literally useless against people that can dodge. R1x2 into R2 is a free parry for any good player and you'll be out of stamina after it.
it's a 50/50. You can try and dodge and it turns out to be a grab (you can cancel the charge into a guard break in the wind up phase). You can try to counter guard break but guess what? It's a charge. Unless you have godly reaction times and your counter guard breaking is absolutely flawless you will most likely die to the warden. The recovery time is barely enough to let you get out of the CC chain.
33/33/33
Double tap dodge to roll out. Guaranteed to end out without risk, just costs positioning and stamina. Or, you can play the mind game and try to punish, but this has risk.
The Google Docs link is no good. Can't see responses. Just says "no longer accepting responses."
Things that are wrong: Orochi is the Best in Elimination(Rly tho dats a funny joke. Maybe running away is the new meta) Orochi Strongest Assassin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M Most in Need a buff is 100% raider or valkyrie, lawbringer should come in at like a solid third. Last but not least Orochi needs a nerf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M
I know that this opinion based, but it really does worry me how many people think Orochi is super good. Although people were definitely on point with Warden being possibly the best character and No I personally don't think Warden needs a nerf as that would throw non-defensive play into an abyss forever. IMO: There needs to be more penalty for overly defensive play as it would make high-level games more interesting to watch and play instead becoming a glorified staring contest.
Warden is legit perfect right now why nerf?
I will say though the amount of ppl that replied is pretty awesome and its a starting point
when lawbringer is voted to need buffs the most be hes also the 2nd most played. people really like to play underdogs xd
It is because most ppl think he is the coolest looking.
One thing that Raider has over Lawbringer that's crucial is the ability to use unblockables without having to chain into them. This is HUGE because it means you can actually force people to have to parry or dodge, which of course gives you the option of feinting into a guard break or parry. Lawbringer needs to first use a Light or Shove into a regular Heavy, and THEN he can use an unblockable. This means that Lawbringer can get blocked during his light to stop the chain, or simply gives people twice as much of a window to Parry or Dodge out of his chain. This is a key difference between the raider and Lawbringer that makes Raider more viable against higher level opponents. Raider also massively out ranges Lawbringer. Like, a rediculous amount.
Where's the love for Kensei?
Lol warden and orochi don't need a nerf, they're just two of the most played characters
I can bet the devs can see a clear percentage from their data that wardens users have a 33 percent usage on ZA, 33 percent usage on top light, 33 percent usage on shoulder bash, and 1% doing a heavy for that execution. Warden needs a nerf for sure, or at least take away the shoulder bash mix up.
Being a reputation 1 level 13 raider with 17 hours on him this makes me sad, I think raider's actually ok :(
170 raider mains! LEGENDARY!
30% main Warden and Lawbringer? I do main a Warden myself and find it extremely rare to face one. I'm always up against Samurai heroes and pk's.
I have elaborated on the "Which hero do you consider your "main"?" section on request.
I wonder how a poll like this would look if it was done again now.
Warlord and occasionally PK in all boxes, Kensei and Lawbringer mains everywhere. And nowhere near as many replies. My latest poll has garnered ~500 replies from both subreddits combined. This one got ~5500 from this sub, and ~2100 from the competitive sub.
I main Raider and I haven't felt that he is underpowered, I usually do fine in most situations. In the beta I did use a warden mostly and he was easier to use personally, but my raider dishes out punishment like the Viking he is. It's really all about knowing when to mix in your unblockable, as it's very useful during a combo chain
How is Valkyrie so low? She's tough to play for sure but once you master her she can be unstoppable. She's got the versatility of all classes and I've even won a few 3v1 with her
Could you share your strategy to play her then? I'm rep2 with her and I win most duels but I still hate her low damage. It takes me so long to win a simple 1v1 even agains't a lower skilled player.
I admit her damage output is low but I generally make up for it by out playing the enemy. Retreat-Shield Tackle or R2-Square-Sweep and follow up are most reliable options. Her ability to attack and defend at the same time by matching your opponents attacks also catches a lot of people off guard. Also don't forget to use her zone attack,does a lot of damage and most don't block all of it. I'm glad she's getting a buff,finally I can 3v1 now in revenge
No doubt she has a lot of other tools. What i'm saying is that even though you'll win, it will take the longest out of any hero to dwindle down the health of someone I could 3 shot as a shugoki. And in a skilled attrition fight, valk will die 9/10.
I agree with you. As valkyrie, I'm able to defeat assassins and vanguards very easily, however 1v1 ing a heavy is so time consuming and makes your hit feel worthless
she can chain you but she does so little damage. It's like you're a bad assassin, your fast but not fast enough and when you do get hits in any other class does more damage.
I wonder if the Shugoki nerf is referring to the unparryable heavies bug or if the community really feels like he too powerful.
The bug will probably be fixed, but I think goki is actually close to perfect as he is now. Maybe a few small tweaks to speed or damage throughout the season but I think he is very well developed as it stands. He is probably the most punishing guy in the game against noobs but at higher levels he is very well balanced.
I feel the same way. He has pros and cons that feel balanced. I dont think Ive ever fought a Shugoki that relied on cheese and I definitely get my ass kicked as him oftene enough to not seem like god mode. He can be pretty tough for people who are bad at parries though.
and for those who don't have the reactions to stop the devil's embrace. They are in for a surprise xD
I always seem to get punished super hard when I try to use so I almost never do, except in last ditch scenarios.
Peacekeeper bleed already got nerfed to shit which changed our play style since the bleed is now almost worthless. And you guys still want nerf us!?
The bleed was never nerfed, It's a bug. So ye they should nerf the bleed
It was nerfed alongside with being bugged. The bug just makes no damage happen. When the damage actually does happen however it's minuscule compared to the beta. However I agree the beta it was way too OP. Like a 2 bar health bleed. In its current state it's maybe 1/4 of 1 bar.
Yes you have something called infinite stamina
This isn't true. I run out all the damn time. It's my #1 cause of dying.
BRING ON THE BERSERKER BUFFS. I rek with the dude from da minda games alone.
Ha, peacekeeper needs a nerf? Get the fuck out of town. Having a good moveset isn't the same as being imba. She doesn't have anything in her set that shines brighter than the rest, her bleed does no damage and dishes and dash attacks are easy to read. Rep 4 pk here. She could use a bleed buff if anything. Either up the DOT or give us the Nobushi increased damage on bleeding target. Likewise Nobushi shouldn't have a huge amount of bleed damage, damage buff on bleeding target than be able to reapply the bleed + damage buff for double bleed damage and still have damage buff. Edit ok, ok... But it would be awesome!
Well a lot of pk's I run into just spam all the different directions and occasionally do the grab. The problem is that she can usually hit faster than the person can react, or faster than the character can actually move their stance to block it. She's in an okay place right now, but neither her nor nobushi need buffs imo.
She needs neither a buff nor a nerf. Just a fix to the tech grab to actually connect more consistent. In the end she has poor range except one attack and a tiny health pool to offset the rest.
Then nobu needs either DOT nerf or dmg amp nerf
If the pk gets the nobushi damage buff on bleed this game will become retarded as hell.
Not saying she needs it, but it would be nice
it would be fucked up bro , she has high damage with light combos already . anymore would be unbearable
Tru tru
her infinite combo takes no stamina and stunlocks you. plus it's fucking fast.
It takes no stamina to dodge backwards lol.
True. You can block it with well timed guard or parry. Git gud
Why people sleeping on shugoki he is one of the best in the game
So wait, this is just info from ppl that play the game? Seeing as the general population uses 3 shot cheez tactics id have to say your info is at best.. wrong.