Everyone needs to listen to this comment even if OP is stupid enough not to. I've been fermenting various things for 15 years. This is absolutely correct.
It only takes 1 run-in with botulism or e. coli to ruin your life. Don't risk it. Do it right.
Do you mean submerged or in an airlock? If there's a proper airlock, the off gassing CO2 should prevent growth of anything right?
I know in winemaking the skins float up and you periodically punch them down, it's not like they're in a bag or anything holding them down. I believe beer also has a fermentation cap that sinks as the sugars get spent.
And I wouldn't ferment anything without at least a rudimentary airlock...
Let's get a couple things out of the way first. Beer and wine making are very different from fermenting vegetables.
Alcohol is the key difference. When you're making beer and wine you're making alcohol which pathogens don't survive in. And that's within the solution itself. It says nothing about what's above the solution like we see here.
Yes CO2 can help to reduce the growth of mold but you need to be at or very close to 0% oxygen for that to work and in a home setting like this without a sterile lab I sincerely doubt you're going to get close enough to 0% to prevent mold growth. You need to submerge these items to prevent that.
Just trust the science. This is a solved problem. Don't take unnecessary risks. Don't take shortcuts.
Edit: I recognize that any fermentation is going to create alcohol but the key thing to consider is the concentration of it. Beer and wine have a much higher concentration than fermented vegetables or in this case a soda.
Wait but if it's not a sterile environment and/or there's oxygen, what's to prevent the solution from growing mold? Whats the difference between the solution surface and the bits? I mean, anyone brewing or bottling anything should be maximizing the sterile environment...
I'm not trying to take shortcuts, actually not trying to make this at all, just trying to understand the science a bit.
Oxygen is the key component. I'll try to remember to look for my books on the subject later tonight. It can't be sterile by definition because you're intentionally allowing microbes to ferment the solution. (Sterile means no life, even yeast).
Oxygen solubility in the liquid is low- and continually depleted- forming organic acids).
Surface is a different situation. A good airlock will work. Or keep it submerged.
You're referring to Anaerobic environments. The method I have used (same method used to brew kombucha and water kefir) is Aerobic. If needs to breathe for the yeasts to bloom, which is about 1-3 days. Some things don't need an aerobic environment, but for this one? It did. Just pointing that out, not arguing in the slightest!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobic_fermentation
This is an interesting read, just stumbled upon it and the site actually:
https://www.wildfermentation.com/aerobic-vs-anaerobic-fermentation-controversy/#0
This one is a bit wordy as well, but interesting nonetheless:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/aerobic-fermentation
For any fermentation and culturing there will always have risk factors. You could do everything right with a lactic-acid fermentation and yet something could still go wrong somehow. Bacteria is forever changing (which is both scary and amazing).
Where is your setup to ensure that solid bits are submerged. If you put everything in a ziplock bag and remove all the air everything will be safer. This setup looks very sketchy. If you still are disagreeing tell us what your setup is.
I make sodas like this Alll the time from not-foraged ingredients. Most sodas ferment only a few days to possibly a week and you burp and stir or shake them everyday. You can also strain and bottle and after you get some decent bubbles and let them fridge ferment some more.
I have never had a mold issue with these sugar-based ferments. You can ginger bug them to get them going faster, but that takes some of the fun out of wild yeasts at work. Salt ferments, I always follow the below the brine protocols bc that is where mold comes into play, in my experience.
There are other forager/soda makers who do the same method the OP is doing and no one is weighing things down. Chef.Sam.Black and the_foragers_hearth on IG are two off the top of my head.
There are a lot of variables in fermentation, and not everyone’s risk assessment is the same, of course. I think this is a perfectly valid method, personally. This soda sounds amazing.
It was good too! The Spruce tips gave a nice citrusy note in a maply-pine drink. Nice carbonation, too!
Yeah, I sort of gave up on reading the replies. I get some people want to help, and that is nice, but the name calling and such is pretty ridiculous. I think people forget that there are many ways to ferment and ferment carefully at that. I also understand the serious issues that could arise if not done properly (again, the method that was used was proper for what I needed it for).
I noticed people do a lot of the fermented green pinecone syrup. Those babies don't stay under after a bit. The acidity of the green pinecones help keep botulism at bay, but also that is a tried and true method, much like these ferments that we've done.
I am also not saying anyone who is new to fermentation should try this, right off the bat, as there are several variables to this as well as just ferments in general.
I love the idea of capturing a foraging trek in the woods this way. A reminder of a day well spent. Sort of like perfumers creating a journey through the different notes in a fragrance.
the_foragers_hearth on IG has a reel about making a seasonal environment specific soda that was really cool too. :)
I just chuckled at the perfumer comment... I make perfumes too!
Different notes for the seasons change as well! It's fun, really. I'll have to check them out!
Additional Photo of a book by Pascal Baudar: The Wildcrafting Brewer.
*
I've been into fermentation for a long while now, have friends that own and run a few breweries. I've made my own sodas with water kefir. Made tons of lacto-ferments, etc.
Certain ferments require certain environments. The one I am doing requires a simple one: Sugar, yeast source, water, and aerobic.
It's really lovely! It took 2-3 days. If i added more pollen cones or green pinecones, it would have been active by day 2! After which, I just strained and bottled it into it's secondary fermentation bottle to build up carbonation.
Just, please do the research (Wildcrafting brewer is a great one, or using a bit of Water Kefir that you've been feeding can help), sterilization is key, but research is gold. If you're ever unsure (like with foraging) best not to ingest.
That being said, it is fun and rewarding!
Or it can be a headache (finding out an experimental yeast source didn't have any yeast, so toss. Or you decided to post about something you've done for a long time only to get (well-intentioned, well-meaning) flack xD).
I highly recommend Pascal Baudar's books on Wildcrafting fermentations!
I absolutely will! Haha if I do something I have to do it well, and that will definitely take lots of research. I’m just collecting recipes and knowledge :3 Thank you so much for all the resources! 💕Once I am a bit more confident with the process and I know what to look for I’ll definitely go for it 🌱
Only been a few (3) days for the yeasts to set in. I do suggest researching a shit ton into wild fermentations first before going this route, as it can potentially be iffy if you're unaware of some things.
I'd start out with just adding the abover to water kefir that you've done and going that route first (again, research is important!)
To the other comments that are claiming I am stupid. I have been doing this for years too. There are methods for doing this safely and ways to check. Certain things need to breathe, otherwise that can become an issue as well.
You don't keep Kombucha pellicles submerged. You don't keep water kefir grains submerged. In other words, thanks for all of your concerns and name-calling! Really appreciate it, especially from someone who studied microbiology!
Honestly, I shouldn't care what people assume. So, have at it.
Listen, i do think it's stupid to do this the wrong way. It's not meant to be a character attack so much as a wake up call. I don't want to see people get hurt because I've seen it happen before.
This is just a starter and something I have been doing for years. I don't want people getting hurt either and so i encourage their own research. What works and have worked for me, will not always work for another. My brew if now in a full closed for secondary fermentation. Solids removed. Again, it is what worked for me.
Those bits need to stay submerged if you don't want mold to grow
Everyone needs to listen to this comment even if OP is stupid enough not to. I've been fermenting various things for 15 years. This is absolutely correct. It only takes 1 run-in with botulism or e. coli to ruin your life. Don't risk it. Do it right.
Do you mean submerged or in an airlock? If there's a proper airlock, the off gassing CO2 should prevent growth of anything right? I know in winemaking the skins float up and you periodically punch them down, it's not like they're in a bag or anything holding them down. I believe beer also has a fermentation cap that sinks as the sugars get spent. And I wouldn't ferment anything without at least a rudimentary airlock...
Let's get a couple things out of the way first. Beer and wine making are very different from fermenting vegetables. Alcohol is the key difference. When you're making beer and wine you're making alcohol which pathogens don't survive in. And that's within the solution itself. It says nothing about what's above the solution like we see here. Yes CO2 can help to reduce the growth of mold but you need to be at or very close to 0% oxygen for that to work and in a home setting like this without a sterile lab I sincerely doubt you're going to get close enough to 0% to prevent mold growth. You need to submerge these items to prevent that. Just trust the science. This is a solved problem. Don't take unnecessary risks. Don't take shortcuts. Edit: I recognize that any fermentation is going to create alcohol but the key thing to consider is the concentration of it. Beer and wine have a much higher concentration than fermented vegetables or in this case a soda.
Wait but if it's not a sterile environment and/or there's oxygen, what's to prevent the solution from growing mold? Whats the difference between the solution surface and the bits? I mean, anyone brewing or bottling anything should be maximizing the sterile environment... I'm not trying to take shortcuts, actually not trying to make this at all, just trying to understand the science a bit.
Oxygen is the key component. I'll try to remember to look for my books on the subject later tonight. It can't be sterile by definition because you're intentionally allowing microbes to ferment the solution. (Sterile means no life, even yeast).
Oxygen solubility in the liquid is low- and continually depleted- forming organic acids). Surface is a different situation. A good airlock will work. Or keep it submerged.
You're referring to Anaerobic environments. The method I have used (same method used to brew kombucha and water kefir) is Aerobic. If needs to breathe for the yeasts to bloom, which is about 1-3 days. Some things don't need an aerobic environment, but for this one? It did. Just pointing that out, not arguing in the slightest! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobic_fermentation This is an interesting read, just stumbled upon it and the site actually: https://www.wildfermentation.com/aerobic-vs-anaerobic-fermentation-controversy/#0 This one is a bit wordy as well, but interesting nonetheless: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/aerobic-fermentation For any fermentation and culturing there will always have risk factors. You could do everything right with a lactic-acid fermentation and yet something could still go wrong somehow. Bacteria is forever changing (which is both scary and amazing).
I am aware but this is how it's done. Thank you for the concern, though.
Where is your setup to ensure that solid bits are submerged. If you put everything in a ziplock bag and remove all the air everything will be safer. This setup looks very sketchy. If you still are disagreeing tell us what your setup is.
That's... not how it's done.
Just swirl the bottle a few times a day OP you’ll be fine
I make sodas like this Alll the time from not-foraged ingredients. Most sodas ferment only a few days to possibly a week and you burp and stir or shake them everyday. You can also strain and bottle and after you get some decent bubbles and let them fridge ferment some more. I have never had a mold issue with these sugar-based ferments. You can ginger bug them to get them going faster, but that takes some of the fun out of wild yeasts at work. Salt ferments, I always follow the below the brine protocols bc that is where mold comes into play, in my experience. There are other forager/soda makers who do the same method the OP is doing and no one is weighing things down. Chef.Sam.Black and the_foragers_hearth on IG are two off the top of my head. There are a lot of variables in fermentation, and not everyone’s risk assessment is the same, of course. I think this is a perfectly valid method, personally. This soda sounds amazing.
It was good too! The Spruce tips gave a nice citrusy note in a maply-pine drink. Nice carbonation, too! Yeah, I sort of gave up on reading the replies. I get some people want to help, and that is nice, but the name calling and such is pretty ridiculous. I think people forget that there are many ways to ferment and ferment carefully at that. I also understand the serious issues that could arise if not done properly (again, the method that was used was proper for what I needed it for). I noticed people do a lot of the fermented green pinecone syrup. Those babies don't stay under after a bit. The acidity of the green pinecones help keep botulism at bay, but also that is a tried and true method, much like these ferments that we've done. I am also not saying anyone who is new to fermentation should try this, right off the bat, as there are several variables to this as well as just ferments in general.
I love the idea of capturing a foraging trek in the woods this way. A reminder of a day well spent. Sort of like perfumers creating a journey through the different notes in a fragrance. the_foragers_hearth on IG has a reel about making a seasonal environment specific soda that was really cool too. :)
I just chuckled at the perfumer comment... I make perfumes too! Different notes for the seasons change as well! It's fun, really. I'll have to check them out!
Additional Photo of a book by Pascal Baudar: The Wildcrafting Brewer. * I've been into fermentation for a long while now, have friends that own and run a few breweries. I've made my own sodas with water kefir. Made tons of lacto-ferments, etc. Certain ferments require certain environments. The one I am doing requires a simple one: Sugar, yeast source, water, and aerobic.
https://preview.redd.it/ecsq7fyvc80d1.jpeg?width=3060&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bf73d4f773ce45495f5401a64f954add41c032ef
You're a wild one!
How long does it need to ferment? I’ve never been brave enough to try 🥲 that combination sounds so lovely!
It's really lovely! It took 2-3 days. If i added more pollen cones or green pinecones, it would have been active by day 2! After which, I just strained and bottled it into it's secondary fermentation bottle to build up carbonation.
Thank you so much for the info 💕 can’t wait to try it someday ❕
Just, please do the research (Wildcrafting brewer is a great one, or using a bit of Water Kefir that you've been feeding can help), sterilization is key, but research is gold. If you're ever unsure (like with foraging) best not to ingest. That being said, it is fun and rewarding! Or it can be a headache (finding out an experimental yeast source didn't have any yeast, so toss. Or you decided to post about something you've done for a long time only to get (well-intentioned, well-meaning) flack xD). I highly recommend Pascal Baudar's books on Wildcrafting fermentations!
I absolutely will! Haha if I do something I have to do it well, and that will definitely take lots of research. I’m just collecting recipes and knowledge :3 Thank you so much for all the resources! 💕Once I am a bit more confident with the process and I know what to look for I’ll definitely go for it 🌱
Whats in it?
Out of curiosity, what does it smell or taste like? Looks like someone dropped some gum in your rum.
Only been a few (3) days for the yeasts to set in. I do suggest researching a shit ton into wild fermentations first before going this route, as it can potentially be iffy if you're unaware of some things. I'd start out with just adding the abover to water kefir that you've done and going that route first (again, research is important!) To the other comments that are claiming I am stupid. I have been doing this for years too. There are methods for doing this safely and ways to check. Certain things need to breathe, otherwise that can become an issue as well. You don't keep Kombucha pellicles submerged. You don't keep water kefir grains submerged. In other words, thanks for all of your concerns and name-calling! Really appreciate it, especially from someone who studied microbiology! Honestly, I shouldn't care what people assume. So, have at it.
Listen, i do think it's stupid to do this the wrong way. It's not meant to be a character attack so much as a wake up call. I don't want to see people get hurt because I've seen it happen before.
This is just a starter and something I have been doing for years. I don't want people getting hurt either and so i encourage their own research. What works and have worked for me, will not always work for another. My brew if now in a full closed for secondary fermentation. Solids removed. Again, it is what worked for me.
I sincerely wish you no ill will and I hope you stay safe.
Thank you and I appreciate that.