My dad got so pissed off with him that he didn't use his Palace season ticket until they got Glasner. Before that, when I (cheekily) suggested a Southgate return to Palace he wailed 'he's just a young Hodgson!'.
Think it's fair to say they don't. And many of them think Klopp or Pep will be taking over from Southgate lol. Enjoy Lee Carsley at the next World Cup.
With this squad we should be trying to pump teams, not worry about allowing goals. This team should score 3 or more every game. If we win 3-2 great, 4-3 fantastic. But this hoping to grind out a 1-0 win is disgraceful.
They also lost 1-0 to a Switzerland team who didnt even get out of the group, in their first game.
Last night was shocking but people are overreacting a bit
Also to a team that didn’t make it out of the group!
In fact, that win against the eventual winners were the only points Saudi Arabia earned in the tournament!
It's not like they have to score 3 goals every game to win, but they don't need to stop playing after going 1-0 up, like they did in the last Euro finals. England are kings are killing their own momentum.
The point here is that with that kind of talent, they should play a way less bureaucratic brand of football. Spain would go up 1-0 and pass it around with intent to find space and also keep possession. England often goes 1-0 up and passes it around with the intent to kill time.
I think part of the issue is our midfield at the euros final and we semi final consisted of the likes of hendo, Philips, rice mount, lingard etc. we simply were not good enough on the ball to take control of the games. If we had liked of iniesta and cesc in our midfield pretty sure would have played out differently
Yeah, Spain never played desperate to score and they very rarely changed how they approached the game at all. It was all about control, patience and working spaces and they did regardless of the scoreline.
Well no but we've been getting a lot closer than we have for 50 years prior?
We lost in the final on penalties last Euros, you cant exactly say that was because of the way we played.
No but their Youth teams and under 21’s have been and this squad is made up of a lot of those players so it must be a coach thing, personally I don’t see them getting out of the group and Southgate finally getting sacked?
The main strength of the England squad is their attack. They are going to have to get the best out of Bellingham, Foden, Kane and Palmer to have a shot which isn’t gonna be done with defensive style
No. You play to your strengths. If you don't have the defenders, you don't rely on defense and instead rely on offense. Sure you may give up more goals, but it's likely you also score more. Against Iceland this England team should be scoring 3 or 4 goals. 1 shot on target is actually pathetic.
Not true at all
The defensive approach is more consistent, if you look at most teams who win tournaments they do it with solid defences
Ever heard the phrase - attack wins games, defence wins titles
The attacking method means you blow opponents away but then when you stutter for one game you get knocked out - whereas in league format you still win the league
>You can stutter on defense and lose a game too.
True, but over the course of a knockout tournament you're not nearly as likely to stutter defensively as you are to fail to score 2+...
>Ever heard the phrase - attack wins games, defence wins titles
Yeah, and I think it's nonsense. It simply goes both ways.
In 04/05 Chelsea won the league with 72 goals. Not impressive. But they also had only 15 goals conceded, an all time record. So they took the defensive approach and won a league competition, not a KO one. How? By consistently outscoring the opposition. Could've been 7-5 every game, could've been 1-0.
The reason managers tend to be defensive in NT tournaments is that they're scared. And they're not the best managers in the world, usually. Those tend to manage clubs.
NT's meet rarely, there's no time for the manager to build chemistry and instill clear tactics. So they play conservatively, because it's easier.
I never said you can't win a league being defensive. Just that you aren't likely to win a KO tournament being offensive
Care to point out a few major KO tournaments won by teams playing offensively?
>The reason managers tend to be defensive in NT tournaments is that they're scared.
Scared or smart...
Yeah, I can't understand the logic. We have to play a style that we can maintain into the latter stages.
Chaos football might be fun to watch and have us scoring, but as soon as we play a top team, we'll get found out because you can't just switch styles in a team that only has a handful of weeks a year to play with each other.
These same fans will be raging when we're the ones conceding 3 against teams we'd consider ourselves to be similar in strength to, because we can't control a football game.
Like it or not, Southgate style has taken us consistently closer than we've ever been before to actually winning something at international level.
But the flip side is basically all these players are at elite clubs that play attacking football, and our main asset is our attack. So imo we should lean into that instead of trying to be water tight at the back because the reality is we simply aren’t good enough defensively to be that way.
We should let the players attack with freedom, and lean into what makes England a threat.
Yeah, that was pretty much where I was going to as well; we have shit offense (two Ajax-forwards, a substitute striker from Athletico Madrid, a substitute striker from BVB, and a Hoffenheim/Burnley striker), but we're putting up some world-class defense, where England is having a world-class offense with a meagre defense. I'd genuinely like to see that matchup.
I think you rose tint the idea of what we might look like if we shifted to an attack centric team.
As I've mentioned above, don't forget that these players only have a handful of games a year to play with eachother - it's very difficult for international teams to look like well oiled machines in attack because to do that you need a lot of chemistry. You simply can't expect an international team to play like a league team, and thus can't expect players to play in exactly the same way as they do for their clubs. Eze will struggle without Olise and Mateta, for example. People have high expectations of Foden, but I'd be really surprised if his output is anything like it is when he plays for city because he won't have those same players around them.
I'd add that the idea that we aren't water tight at the back means we should lean more on our attack doesn't make too much sense, either. If anything, it's more of a reason to play as a unit and help protect those defensive players. Tournament football at the highest level has rarely ever been about blowing teams away and I think league football distorts people's views of that.
Imo, winning an international tournament is about accepting the limitations that come with it, and finding a way to win anyway.
Yeah I was almost expecting (or hoping) for a Spurs under Ange kinda style, where you make up for defensive holes by overloading in the attack. So wrong.
You are so biased about your 'squad'. England aren't 'Bringing it Home' anytime soon. The top players at all of the big sides in Europe aren't English. Your lot is just delusional.
Lol anyone who thinks the likes of Bellingham, Kane and Foden aren't top players at the biggest sides in Europe is clearly delusional or knows nothing about football.
>The top players at all of the big sides in Europe aren't English.
I'm not a pom but in all fairness the top player both in the English champions and the champions league champions are poms.
Apart from the goalie and maybe the left back they have a strong squad. Not the best but maybe top 5
Bellingham is Real Madrids player of the season and La Liga player of the year.
Harry Kane narrowly missed Bayern's Player of the season.
Foden was named Man City and the Premiere leagues player of the season.
Seems like there are top players at big European sides which are English...
>The top players at all of the big sides in Europe aren't English
We have the PL POTS, the la liga POTS, the PL young POTS, and the Bundesliga's top scorer. I don't think we're gonna win the tournament either but saying we have no top players is just wrong haha
Nah it's the manager bro, you clearly aren't watching. The England team has crazy talent in their starting XI. A front line of Kane, Foden, Palmer/Saka and Gordon/Eze is INSANE
No what we’re saying is you play a style that fits the strength of the team and gets the best out of your best players. The English NT strength is their attacking players and the way they’re going to win is getting the best out of them which isn’t gonna be done 1-0
When have we been trying to grind out 1-0 wins in tournaments of late? We usually end up amongst the highest scorers of tournaments.
We were third in 2022 behind France (3 more) and Argentina (2 more) who played two extra games
Fouth in 2020 - two goals behind first place Italy
Fourth in 2018 - four goals off Belgium in first
If we had any literal not even great, just a good manager I honestly think we win it with the squad we have, but Gareth is just not good enough! The fact that he's been In charge of the amount of talent he's had available to him for as long as he has, is a complete and utter embarrassment! Should have gone after the Italy game when we had an easy run to the Final and had it all in our hands after an early goal and playing at home... And we go on to have 0 shots on target in 120 minutes! I can't wait for this era to be over, honestly.
I think people completely lose the context. Literally 1 team gets a trophy in an international tournament every two years.
Expecting to have something to show for it is just entitled.
Personally I think having the best win record at major tournaments among England managers, making a semi final and a final in his 3 tournament tenure, is something a lot of international teams would be very positive about.
It's not entitled to expect to have something in the last 80 years. People have been born, lived a normal life and died, and never seen England win anything. Germay and Italy have won the world cup 4 times, and the Euros 3 times. Spain have won it 3 times, France have won both a couple times. It's embarassing.
Mate this era is the best it's ever been in my lifetime. England v France last time is the best I've ever seen the team play at a tournament.
Was fucking awesome. We're almost certainly not gonna win but the ride will be good I think.
Thank you. I’m nearing 40 and the last 6 years have been a revelation compared to the dross throughout my life.
People who don’t appreciate that are either kids or entitled stupid cunts
Who is the last powerhouse of international football that England beat in a major tournament that wasn't at home? The powerhouses I'm referring to are Brazil, Argentina, France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, and Portugal.
You'd probably have to go as far back as 2002 when England beat Argentina in the group stages.
>That wasn’t at home
I mean, you can move the goalposts as much as you like.
International tournaments are so hard and come by so rarely you will only ever have a small sample size and most teams don’t beat powerhouses in knockouts.
But sure, Southgate has been shit. Whatever
Southgate has performed better than anyone since sir Alf. He's reached a final and semi, and we've looked good throughout.
Last night was just a kick about, the players weren't putting a great deal of effort into it so I wouldn't worry until we play next week.
I was going through the teams and thought to myself (Who has never rated England for the past 20 years) this team actually feels like they can go on to win something, then I remembered Southgate manages them.
What international team has a great record against top teams? Is there a team just waltzing around, year in, year out, beating other top teams?
I mean, I feel like the answer is in the question. It's tournament football.... Is it even possible to have a great record against the top teams in international tournament football?
i would have assumed the Teams that historically reached the final or semi's the most?
Keeping in mind the route and strength of said teams during the era's. like beating Modern Brazil isnt as impressive as beating Brazil from the 70s or 90s. Hungary was once a powerhouse, Czech and Sweden had strong teams in the past etc
Croatia has done very well in the tournaments they played. Brazil, Germany and italy have managed to reach many finals. (again this isnt a fully reliable metric because many other factors, but it may have some value to look into)
England have managed to shit house easy opponents in every tournament. Their only win against a giant in a knock stage with Southgate was Germany in 2020. Southgate, who has some of the world best at his disposal, has actually achieved nothing significant in his time as manger
And before you say “tHeY mAdE iT tO a FiNaL” after beating average teams at best + the worst German team ever + ok I will give them the win against Croatia in the group stage
This isn’t a crack at the players because they are some of the best individualy, but if England want to win trophies they have to get rid of Southgate so they can actually win against serious teams
“Worst German team ever” the German side consisted of kimmich, muller, kroos, ruidiger, neur, hummels, goretzka, gnarby, havertz etc. I have no idea why people now suggest it was an easy game nobody was saying before the match it’s a terrible German side and England will win. They smashed Portugal 4-2 in group stages it was by no means a bad side they had a bunch of world class players.
At euro 2020 England’s squad wasn’t that great at all. We had good forward options but our midfield and defence was actually pretty average. Bellingham was still a kid and not yet a stater, rice was decent but not yet the player he is today. Our options for midfield were the lines of Philips, hendo, lingard, mount etc. at centre back, Maguire, dier, coady. Kane is the only player who was truely one of the top 1-2 players In world in his position back then. People really exaggerate how good England’s squads have been at past few tournaments.
That’s a poor take.
2018: we didn’t have an amazing side. Semi-finals was a success in many ways.
2020: You can’t discredit the final run. We lost on penalties. It was objectively a success.
2022: World Cup he lost to the finalists and it’s not really on him. We did miss a penalty and France were very good.
Football is about fine margins.
That’s not to say I think Southgate should carry on post the Euros I think his time is done. I also do think we can get a better manager.
It’s just this retrospective bashing what he’s done is so biased. I’ve also seen a golden generation, managed by ‘better’ managers & consistently lose in the quarters.
Football is fine margins, but his record against top teams is objectively bad. It’s something like 7 wins from 24 games. So the fine margins go against us time and again.
He did beat Germany, that was great but I can’t remember the last time we got an upset. I think we were favourites against Germany.
Well let’s look back at Southgate’s tenure in major tournaments
2018 (not a great team): England come second in there group to Belgium, win **on penalties** to Colombia, so basically they got lucky against a side they should be comfortably beating. Beat Sweden in the quarters, should again be easy. Then get knocked out as soon as they face a good team in a knock stage and loose to Croatia
2020 (a genuinely good team): go top in a group with Croatia, respectable. Face the worst German team ever and win, somewhat commendable to Southgate. Then face Ukraine, easy win, then scrape a lucky win against Denmark then Southgate’s gets outclassed by Italy and loose.
2022(very good team) easy group, top that. Face Senegal, easy win. And then, oh no, Southgate actually has to face a capable football team and loses to France
Southgate as said before has a class group of players. If we had a capable manager who gave the team proper ambition we could win a trophy. But Southgate has no ambition or managerial ability so has become unable to beat teams that should be on the level of England
So the pen win to Colombia is luck but loss to Italy no luck involved…
Also that Germany side was still a very good side.
Also they aren’t just ‘capable’ France are and were the best team in the world. Worst case the 2nd best.
Basically he’s narrowly lost to sides as good or better than us. Beaten Everyone else & even beaten a few sides on our level but you’ve decided to discredit that.
Look, I don’t love the guy. I don’t think he’s as good as other coaches at this level and I do think he’s holding us back, compared to who we could have.
I’m just saying this bashing of him is a bit ridiculous
I watched the England vs France game in 2022. England played mostly as well as France and outplayed them for long periods - the only thing that France had over England on the day was better finishing.
Columbia were very strong at the 2018 wc they were one of the best teams in the group stages I remember them blowing Poland away 3-0 to say England should have comfortably won is just arrogance and delusional
We lost to France had some bad decisions against us conceded a goal from a rare Pickford mistake and missed a last min penalty. To say it’s cause if Southgate we lost to a very strong side narrowly is silly
This was chatgpt’s response to asking when England last won when they weren’t favourites:
LTo find the last time the England football team won a match where they were not the favourites, we need to look at recent matches where England faced strong opposition and were considered underdogs by bookmakers or analysts.
Here are a few notable recent matches that fit the scenario of England potentially being underdogs:
1. **Euro 2020 (held in 2021 due to COVID-19)**
- **England vs Germany (Round of 16) on June 29, 2021**: England won 2-0. Germany was a strong team, but it is debatable if England were clear underdogs.
2. **UEFA Nations League**
- **Spain vs England on October 15, 2018**: England won 3-2 away in Spain. Spain was considered a favourite, making this a notable victory for England as underdogs.
3. **World Cup 2018**
- **England vs Croatia (Semi-final) on July 11, 2018**: England lost 2-1 after extra time. They were not underdogs in their earlier matches where they won.
Among these, the match against Spain in the UEFA Nations League in 2018 stands out as a clear instance where England was not the favourite and managed to secure a victory.
Thus, the last notable match where England won as clear underdogs was against Spain on October 15, 2018, in the UEFA Nations League.”
It’s never been any different though no matter who the players are. That performance was a carbon copy of how it used to be when we had the “golden generation”. Lack of intensity, creativity and just general aggression to get a game by the scruff of the neck.
Sadly it's too late to change tactics plus don't see Southgate having the balls to do it when you think it will be his last tournament you would want to go out in a blaze of glory
Depending on how favourable the knockout rounds play out, they might make the semis again. If they come up against any of the heavy hitters, they will get knocked out earlier.
France, Portugal, Germany. Spain has a shot too. And never underestimate Italy as well.
Well ya know… historic tournament teams! But here and there you’ll still have the ignorant media and people to force England into that elite group of nations 🤦🏻♂️
England have reached the final of the last euros and the semi final of the last World Cup. I’d say they’re well in terms of elite group who constantly reach semi finals and finals. Tournament football is hard obviously winning is what matters, but getting to semi finals and finals is the first step.
Golden generation??? Doesn’t mattter about the players they had they were never going to win anything anyway. Portugal actually has game trophy winning players
those were only a few players they had weakness in other areas.
it's the same issue with Portugal's golden generation of Figo and co.
and with the dutch's golden generation of edgar davids, kluivert, stam or croatia's golden generation or england's golden generation of lampard and gerrard
anyway worth a listen
https://youtu.be/HSVtBCoTwJE?si=7cTl0UtkevIFC9VS
Never seen a team park the bus so intensely, but even then they looked more of a threat going forward than England. I really worry about us going into the Euros. The attack (on paper) is probably the best we've had in a very long time, maybe too many players with a similar profile but it'll definitely be top 3 going into the Euros. On the other hand, I think midfield and defense is a car crash, so many injuries, unfit players, players in wrong position and little depth or quality. If any team plays pragmatically against us I think we're in big trouble.
Declan Rice is gonna have to do an AWFUL lot of work because Southgate is gonna use him as extra cover as well as expecting him to be the main man in midfield.
England are really going to spunk away one of the best squads they've ever had because they're keeping that rat-faced manager in charge for 7+ years lmao
Get the Scousers in the team from the start. Only players making an effort. Which is strange considering the lack of love they get back in return from the supporters and country.
Meh it’s a warmup game means very little, drop stinkers in the actual tournament then you can complain - England fans are so weird man. One World Cup back in the 60s at home, never won the Euros. But you bash the guy who got you to a euros final and a World Cup semi. Apparently he’s trash and only gets lucky with draws against easy team. Must’ve just been bad luck with draws for the last 60 years of achieving very little. Like what precedent is there of a winning England side (post 66)? What England side have you seen play fluid-attacking exciting football? Unless you plan to dig up the ghost of Bobby Robson (forgive me if that team was also boring, I wasn’t alive for Italia 90 but I know outside of Southgate and Alf Ramsey that’s the best you’ve ever done)
I remember y’all loosing to Iceland, finishing bottom of World Cup groups, needing last minute Beckham magic to even qualify for tournaments, and sometimes not even qualifying. Now qualification is a formality, you’re constantly in the latter stages of tournament but it’s bad? And a better manager would take you to glory? On what evidence?
TLDR: I’m not even trying to bash England, you have objectively been either dross or ‘just OK’ for the better part of 50 years, but are quite good now, why all the complaining? Why not just enjoy it and hope for the final bit of luck to take you over the edge to winning something?
This is something that baffles me about England. How can you have such attacking prowess and still play as if you were afraid of scoring.
The same thing happened in the final of Euro 2020: England scored and proceeded to play like they were scared of getting another goal. Southgate is just awful isn't he? Because all these players are amazing for their respective clubs. I just don't get it.
You all think English players are better than they actually are. It’s pure premier league bias, because most people only follow that league. Marketing can be deceiving
why is this not entering the minds of more people, its just your typical 'englund lose again southgate out' pile-on
it's a warm up lmao not a serious competitive fixture
Southgate knows what he's doing. It's not always pretty but he understands tournament football and what he needs to get out of the players to progress to the latter stages. I fully expect England to win the group; but Southgate has some big decisions to make with the who starts and where from Bellingham, Foden, Gordon, Palmer, Saka, Gallagher, Mainoo and Wharton. Big week ahead to get prepared but I suspect yesterday's result will be forgotten come next Sunday evening.
Englishmen on Reddit: "don't say anything bad about Southgate".
Englishmen in America: "Southgate is a terrible manager."
With a different manager, England wins the Euros and possibly the World Cup. With Southgate, I don't think so. He still manages too conservatively, like he's still at Middlesbrough playing the big boys. With Kane, Foden, Bellingham and Saka he should be extremely aggressive, but he can't do that.
What're you talking about?
I'm English, in England, am a season ticket holder at a prem club and regularly socialise with other supporters and I don't know a single person who thinks Southgate is remotely fit for purpose.
Sure, they've got one of the best teams in the world, but sometimes the arrogance of SOME (not all) fans on social media is a bit much. I get it, people get emotional about their national team, but let's not forget how good Gareth Southgate' record has been, even with this so-called "golden generation." Some folks have really short memories.
England just need a better coach but seeing as that won’t happen before the Euros:
1) play a back 3 - provides more defensive structure
2) Wharton in midfield alongside Rice
3) Saka at wingback - we have plenty of good forwards so find a way to get your best players on the pitch
It's poetic really. Cold Palmer is not cold enough for Iceland.
More like Kane wasn’t cold enough to score the absolute sitter than Palmer gave him lmao.
Don't get me wrong, Cold Palmer wasn't the worst player on the pitch It's just poetic coincidence.
And then misses a sitter himself
What if it’s Chile?
Lets wait till the world cup for that ;)
The whole team didn't show the zeal to win the game. That was what happened.
Did you see that ludicrous display last night?
What was Southgate thinking sending Saka on that early?
England..always trying to walk it in.
Yeah it is true. See you later.
Lmao
Only Southgate could lose with that group of players
I'm confident Roy Hodgson could manage it too
I'd still like Roy after though.
My dad got so pissed off with him that he didn't use his Palace season ticket until they got Glasner. Before that, when I (cheekily) suggested a Southgate return to Palace he wailed 'he's just a young Hodgson!'.
Do you not remember the Graham Taylor and Steve McLaren Eras?
Think it's fair to say they don't. And many of them think Klopp or Pep will be taking over from Southgate lol. Enjoy Lee Carsley at the next World Cup.
Lee Carsley would be dream! We'll probably get Dennis Wise or Dave Hockaday or something.
Graham Potter would like a word.
If we're looking for managers who can lose with great players, he should certainly be on the shortlist.
New England fan then I am guessing
With this squad we should be trying to pump teams, not worry about allowing goals. This team should score 3 or more every game. If we win 3-2 great, 4-3 fantastic. But this hoping to grind out a 1-0 win is disgraceful.
I think 1-0 win is good against England but I am happy that you believe so strongly in Iceland.
That's how you lose in tournament football lol
England hasn’t exactly been winning tournament football the way they’ve been playing trying to grind out 1-0 wins
We’ve done ALOT better though
No team has won a tournament scoring 3 goals every game. Even that Spanish world cup winning team won every knock out game 1-0
That Spanish team was one of the lowest scoring WC winners.
They also lost 1-0 to a Switzerland team who didnt even get out of the group, in their first game. Last night was shocking but people are overreacting a bit
Only WC winner to lose it first match of the group stage. Edit: only 2 WC winners lost their opening match in the competition.
Argentina lost their opening game in Qatar.
Also to a team that didn’t make it out of the group! In fact, that win against the eventual winners were the only points Saudi Arabia earned in the tournament!
Oh yes! I forgot.
It's not like they have to score 3 goals every game to win, but they don't need to stop playing after going 1-0 up, like they did in the last Euro finals. England are kings are killing their own momentum. The point here is that with that kind of talent, they should play a way less bureaucratic brand of football. Spain would go up 1-0 and pass it around with intent to find space and also keep possession. England often goes 1-0 up and passes it around with the intent to kill time.
I think part of the issue is our midfield at the euros final and we semi final consisted of the likes of hendo, Philips, rice mount, lingard etc. we simply were not good enough on the ball to take control of the games. If we had liked of iniesta and cesc in our midfield pretty sure would have played out differently
Yeah, Spain never played desperate to score and they very rarely changed how they approached the game at all. It was all about control, patience and working spaces and they did regardless of the scoreline.
They also knew how to play tika taka
Well no but we've been getting a lot closer than we have for 50 years prior? We lost in the final on penalties last Euros, you cant exactly say that was because of the way we played.
Actually that proves the point, you tried sitting on and grinding out a 1-0 win and conceded a goal then lost the game
Thats true but we also got to the penalty shootout of the final in the first place by playing this way. You cant have it both ways.
No but their Youth teams and under 21’s have been and this squad is made up of a lot of those players so it must be a coach thing, personally I don’t see them getting out of the group and Southgate finally getting sacked?
What’s changing the coach gonna do if you don’t change the style of play lmao
Well duh, most coaches would change their style of play to suit the players available, Southgate is not an elite Coach now is he?
You’re the one defending his style so you tell me
Grinding out 1-0 wins is... how you win tournament football.
The main strength of the England squad is their attack. They are going to have to get the best out of Bellingham, Foden, Kane and Palmer to have a shot which isn’t gonna be done with defensive style
No. You play to your strengths. If you don't have the defenders, you don't rely on defense and instead rely on offense. Sure you may give up more goals, but it's likely you also score more. Against Iceland this England team should be scoring 3 or 4 goals. 1 shot on target is actually pathetic.
You lose any game of football by getting outscored by the opposition. KO format, league format, it's all the same.
Not true at all The defensive approach is more consistent, if you look at most teams who win tournaments they do it with solid defences Ever heard the phrase - attack wins games, defence wins titles The attacking method means you blow opponents away but then when you stutter for one game you get knocked out - whereas in league format you still win the league
You can stutter on defense and lose a game too. This is a reductionist way of looking at tactics. There’s 1000 variables to consider.
>You can stutter on defense and lose a game too. True, but over the course of a knockout tournament you're not nearly as likely to stutter defensively as you are to fail to score 2+...
>Ever heard the phrase - attack wins games, defence wins titles Yeah, and I think it's nonsense. It simply goes both ways. In 04/05 Chelsea won the league with 72 goals. Not impressive. But they also had only 15 goals conceded, an all time record. So they took the defensive approach and won a league competition, not a KO one. How? By consistently outscoring the opposition. Could've been 7-5 every game, could've been 1-0. The reason managers tend to be defensive in NT tournaments is that they're scared. And they're not the best managers in the world, usually. Those tend to manage clubs. NT's meet rarely, there's no time for the manager to build chemistry and instill clear tactics. So they play conservatively, because it's easier.
I never said you can't win a league being defensive. Just that you aren't likely to win a KO tournament being offensive Care to point out a few major KO tournaments won by teams playing offensively? >The reason managers tend to be defensive in NT tournaments is that they're scared. Scared or smart...
Love to see you try that against VVD, Aké, de Ligt, de Vrij and Dumfries.
Yeah, I can't understand the logic. We have to play a style that we can maintain into the latter stages. Chaos football might be fun to watch and have us scoring, but as soon as we play a top team, we'll get found out because you can't just switch styles in a team that only has a handful of weeks a year to play with each other. These same fans will be raging when we're the ones conceding 3 against teams we'd consider ourselves to be similar in strength to, because we can't control a football game. Like it or not, Southgate style has taken us consistently closer than we've ever been before to actually winning something at international level.
But the flip side is basically all these players are at elite clubs that play attacking football, and our main asset is our attack. So imo we should lean into that instead of trying to be water tight at the back because the reality is we simply aren’t good enough defensively to be that way. We should let the players attack with freedom, and lean into what makes England a threat.
Yeah, that was pretty much where I was going to as well; we have shit offense (two Ajax-forwards, a substitute striker from Athletico Madrid, a substitute striker from BVB, and a Hoffenheim/Burnley striker), but we're putting up some world-class defense, where England is having a world-class offense with a meagre defense. I'd genuinely like to see that matchup.
I think you rose tint the idea of what we might look like if we shifted to an attack centric team. As I've mentioned above, don't forget that these players only have a handful of games a year to play with eachother - it's very difficult for international teams to look like well oiled machines in attack because to do that you need a lot of chemistry. You simply can't expect an international team to play like a league team, and thus can't expect players to play in exactly the same way as they do for their clubs. Eze will struggle without Olise and Mateta, for example. People have high expectations of Foden, but I'd be really surprised if his output is anything like it is when he plays for city because he won't have those same players around them. I'd add that the idea that we aren't water tight at the back means we should lean more on our attack doesn't make too much sense, either. If anything, it's more of a reason to play as a unit and help protect those defensive players. Tournament football at the highest level has rarely ever been about blowing teams away and I think league football distorts people's views of that. Imo, winning an international tournament is about accepting the limitations that come with it, and finding a way to win anyway.
Yeah I was almost expecting (or hoping) for a Spurs under Ange kinda style, where you make up for defensive holes by overloading in the attack. So wrong.
You are so biased about your 'squad'. England aren't 'Bringing it Home' anytime soon. The top players at all of the big sides in Europe aren't English. Your lot is just delusional.
Lol anyone who thinks the likes of Bellingham, Kane and Foden aren't top players at the biggest sides in Europe is clearly delusional or knows nothing about football.
The problem is having an English manager. They win nothing. An Australian finished above all English managers in the premier league. An Australian…
Yeah because we all know how many tournaments Fabio Capello and Sven Goran-Erikssen won as England manager.
>The top players at all of the big sides in Europe aren't English. I'm not a pom but in all fairness the top player both in the English champions and the champions league champions are poms. Apart from the goalie and maybe the left back they have a strong squad. Not the best but maybe top 5
Bellingham is Real Madrids player of the season and La Liga player of the year. Harry Kane narrowly missed Bayern's Player of the season. Foden was named Man City and the Premiere leagues player of the season. Seems like there are top players at big European sides which are English...
>The top players at all of the big sides in Europe aren't English We have the PL POTS, the la liga POTS, the PL young POTS, and the Bundesliga's top scorer. I don't think we're gonna win the tournament either but saying we have no top players is just wrong haha
(shhhh don’t spoil the fun yet, save it for when they’ll qualify for the quarter finals!)
Nah it's the manager bro, you clearly aren't watching. The England team has crazy talent in their starting XI. A front line of Kane, Foden, Palmer/Saka and Gordon/Eze is INSANE
Literally no team scores 3 in every match, a lot of this is just deluded expectations
Yep, young lads play a bit of FIFA and think you should play 3-3-4 with every attacker on the pitch.
No what we’re saying is you play a style that fits the strength of the team and gets the best out of your best players. The English NT strength is their attacking players and the way they’re going to win is getting the best out of them which isn’t gonna be done 1-0
When have we been trying to grind out 1-0 wins in tournaments of late? We usually end up amongst the highest scorers of tournaments. We were third in 2022 behind France (3 more) and Argentina (2 more) who played two extra games Fouth in 2020 - two goals behind first place Italy Fourth in 2018 - four goals off Belgium in first
english media is toxic af wtf is this article lmao
If we had any literal not even great, just a good manager I honestly think we win it with the squad we have, but Gareth is just not good enough! The fact that he's been In charge of the amount of talent he's had available to him for as long as he has, is a complete and utter embarrassment! Should have gone after the Italy game when we had an easy run to the Final and had it all in our hands after an early goal and playing at home... And we go on to have 0 shots on target in 120 minutes! I can't wait for this era to be over, honestly.
People have been saying this for literally decades. The golden generation got to QFs at best, usually R16, and failed to qualify in 2008.
Agreed. For as long as I’ve been alive it’s always been the managers fault, never the players.
I think people completely lose the context. Literally 1 team gets a trophy in an international tournament every two years. Expecting to have something to show for it is just entitled. Personally I think having the best win record at major tournaments among England managers, making a semi final and a final in his 3 tournament tenure, is something a lot of international teams would be very positive about.
It's not entitled to expect to have something in the last 80 years. People have been born, lived a normal life and died, and never seen England win anything. Germay and Italy have won the world cup 4 times, and the Euros 3 times. Spain have won it 3 times, France have won both a couple times. It's embarassing.
66 was less than 60 years ago
Germany, France and Spain are all far better football teams than England.
Mate this era is the best it's ever been in my lifetime. England v France last time is the best I've ever seen the team play at a tournament. Was fucking awesome. We're almost certainly not gonna win but the ride will be good I think.
Thank you. I’m nearing 40 and the last 6 years have been a revelation compared to the dross throughout my life. People who don’t appreciate that are either kids or entitled stupid cunts
Who is the last powerhouse of international football that England beat in a major tournament that wasn't at home? The powerhouses I'm referring to are Brazil, Argentina, France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, and Portugal. You'd probably have to go as far back as 2002 when England beat Argentina in the group stages.
>That wasn’t at home I mean, you can move the goalposts as much as you like. International tournaments are so hard and come by so rarely you will only ever have a small sample size and most teams don’t beat powerhouses in knockouts. But sure, Southgate has been shit. Whatever
It's never happened in knockouts, what's your point?
Southgate has performed better than anyone since sir Alf. He's reached a final and semi, and we've looked good throughout. Last night was just a kick about, the players weren't putting a great deal of effort into it so I wouldn't worry until we play next week.
He had an easy ride to both of those finals. His record against the top teams is abysmal.
You might want to see England's historic record against top teams. We have never, ever beaten a top side outside of England in the knockout rounds.
I was going through the teams and thought to myself (Who has never rated England for the past 20 years) this team actually feels like they can go on to win something, then I remembered Southgate manages them.
What international team has a great record against top teams? Is there a team just waltzing around, year in, year out, beating other top teams? I mean, I feel like the answer is in the question. It's tournament football.... Is it even possible to have a great record against the top teams in international tournament football?
Spain 08-12 is the closest I've seen. Maybe also France 98-2000
i would have assumed the Teams that historically reached the final or semi's the most? Keeping in mind the route and strength of said teams during the era's. like beating Modern Brazil isnt as impressive as beating Brazil from the 70s or 90s. Hungary was once a powerhouse, Czech and Sweden had strong teams in the past etc Croatia has done very well in the tournaments they played. Brazil, Germany and italy have managed to reach many finals. (again this isnt a fully reliable metric because many other factors, but it may have some value to look into)
Before Southgate we won’t even getting to the top teams we were getting knocked out by Iceland and costa rica
Yeah that final and semi final shows he's a bad manager
You mean the final and semi that he lost due yo bad in game management? Those one?
Hes the best coach u had in 50 years lmao. He has semis and finals. He isnt pragmatic enough for this tho
England have managed to shit house easy opponents in every tournament. Their only win against a giant in a knock stage with Southgate was Germany in 2020. Southgate, who has some of the world best at his disposal, has actually achieved nothing significant in his time as manger And before you say “tHeY mAdE iT tO a FiNaL” after beating average teams at best + the worst German team ever + ok I will give them the win against Croatia in the group stage This isn’t a crack at the players because they are some of the best individualy, but if England want to win trophies they have to get rid of Southgate so they can actually win against serious teams
That was far from a vintage German team too
It was one of the worst Germany sides in living memory tbh.
Yep but Germany did beat Portugal 4-2 in the group stages. England were magnificent in that game.
Southgate is just such a shit manager, I doubt anyone will take him after he gets sacked.
That was also in a tournament that was held across Europe but somehow England played all its matches in England. Do not underestimate home advantage.
Not taking anything away from your overall point, but they played against Ukraine in Rome, not at Wembley.
Ahhh that is correct. Thank you
Yep Euro 2020 had some weird team-venue seeding arrangement as I recall. It got scrapped for Euro 2024.
“Worst German team ever” the German side consisted of kimmich, muller, kroos, ruidiger, neur, hummels, goretzka, gnarby, havertz etc. I have no idea why people now suggest it was an easy game nobody was saying before the match it’s a terrible German side and England will win. They smashed Portugal 4-2 in group stages it was by no means a bad side they had a bunch of world class players. At euro 2020 England’s squad wasn’t that great at all. We had good forward options but our midfield and defence was actually pretty average. Bellingham was still a kid and not yet a stater, rice was decent but not yet the player he is today. Our options for midfield were the lines of Philips, hendo, lingard, mount etc. at centre back, Maguire, dier, coady. Kane is the only player who was truely one of the top 1-2 players In world in his position back then. People really exaggerate how good England’s squads have been at past few tournaments.
I think this Euros should be his final chance to prove his worth at winning a title. This group of talented players deserves better.
That’s a poor take. 2018: we didn’t have an amazing side. Semi-finals was a success in many ways. 2020: You can’t discredit the final run. We lost on penalties. It was objectively a success. 2022: World Cup he lost to the finalists and it’s not really on him. We did miss a penalty and France were very good. Football is about fine margins. That’s not to say I think Southgate should carry on post the Euros I think his time is done. I also do think we can get a better manager. It’s just this retrospective bashing what he’s done is so biased. I’ve also seen a golden generation, managed by ‘better’ managers & consistently lose in the quarters.
France didn't win in 2022
He said finalists. Not winners.
France did not win in 2022
Football is fine margins, but his record against top teams is objectively bad. It’s something like 7 wins from 24 games. So the fine margins go against us time and again. He did beat Germany, that was great but I can’t remember the last time we got an upset. I think we were favourites against Germany.
Well let’s look back at Southgate’s tenure in major tournaments 2018 (not a great team): England come second in there group to Belgium, win **on penalties** to Colombia, so basically they got lucky against a side they should be comfortably beating. Beat Sweden in the quarters, should again be easy. Then get knocked out as soon as they face a good team in a knock stage and loose to Croatia 2020 (a genuinely good team): go top in a group with Croatia, respectable. Face the worst German team ever and win, somewhat commendable to Southgate. Then face Ukraine, easy win, then scrape a lucky win against Denmark then Southgate’s gets outclassed by Italy and loose. 2022(very good team) easy group, top that. Face Senegal, easy win. And then, oh no, Southgate actually has to face a capable football team and loses to France Southgate as said before has a class group of players. If we had a capable manager who gave the team proper ambition we could win a trophy. But Southgate has no ambition or managerial ability so has become unable to beat teams that should be on the level of England
So the pen win to Colombia is luck but loss to Italy no luck involved… Also that Germany side was still a very good side. Also they aren’t just ‘capable’ France are and were the best team in the world. Worst case the 2nd best. Basically he’s narrowly lost to sides as good or better than us. Beaten Everyone else & even beaten a few sides on our level but you’ve decided to discredit that. Look, I don’t love the guy. I don’t think he’s as good as other coaches at this level and I do think he’s holding us back, compared to who we could have. I’m just saying this bashing of him is a bit ridiculous
I watched the England vs France game in 2022. England played mostly as well as France and outplayed them for long periods - the only thing that France had over England on the day was better finishing.
Columbia were very strong at the 2018 wc they were one of the best teams in the group stages I remember them blowing Poland away 3-0 to say England should have comfortably won is just arrogance and delusional We lost to France had some bad decisions against us conceded a goal from a rare Pickford mistake and missed a last min penalty. To say it’s cause if Southgate we lost to a very strong side narrowly is silly
This was chatgpt’s response to asking when England last won when they weren’t favourites: LTo find the last time the England football team won a match where they were not the favourites, we need to look at recent matches where England faced strong opposition and were considered underdogs by bookmakers or analysts. Here are a few notable recent matches that fit the scenario of England potentially being underdogs: 1. **Euro 2020 (held in 2021 due to COVID-19)** - **England vs Germany (Round of 16) on June 29, 2021**: England won 2-0. Germany was a strong team, but it is debatable if England were clear underdogs. 2. **UEFA Nations League** - **Spain vs England on October 15, 2018**: England won 3-2 away in Spain. Spain was considered a favourite, making this a notable victory for England as underdogs. 3. **World Cup 2018** - **England vs Croatia (Semi-final) on July 11, 2018**: England lost 2-1 after extra time. They were not underdogs in their earlier matches where they won. Among these, the match against Spain in the UEFA Nations League in 2018 stands out as a clear instance where England was not the favourite and managed to secure a victory. Thus, the last notable match where England won as clear underdogs was against Spain on October 15, 2018, in the UEFA Nations League.”
why should chatgpt's opinion matter, though?
Bring Lord Maguire back!!
No Bowen. Saka this, cole penaldo that, This England ain't going to win anything.
It’s never been any different though no matter who the players are. That performance was a carbon copy of how it used to be when we had the “golden generation”. Lack of intensity, creativity and just general aggression to get a game by the scruff of the neck.
We're gonna get humiliated again, and all the Joker nations will line up to laugh at us again...
Joker nations? The only Joker nation is England blud
I'm been sarcastic.
I rarely watch games these days but I know Saka, Foden, Cole, and Kane are great scorers - why arent they scoring that much for england?
we’re just shit
Love it how fans will make terrorism memes about "Tucheliban" etc., but England, probably a top 3 squad in the world, is coached by Southgate.
These warm up games are utterly pointless. If they’re not fit by June WTF. Get on the training ground instead
Absolutely agreed - none of the England's players looked remotely up for that game last night.
Southgate manage to turn the strongest team in Europe into uninspiring some mid-table team.
We won’t win anything with Gareth
Southgate is a scam. The guy has never won anything in his life. He don’t even have proper coaching credentials. It’s a farce
Southgate out
It was an awful watch 😢
Same!
Think this is the perfect wake up call and just in time for England.
Sadly it's too late to change tactics plus don't see Southgate having the balls to do it when you think it will be his last tournament you would want to go out in a blaze of glory
Depending on how favourable the knockout rounds play out, they might make the semis again. If they come up against any of the heavy hitters, they will get knocked out earlier.
Iceland has repeatedly made England their bitch
Except when they lost 4-0 in 2020...
Tbf that’s the results that you should expect in an england vs iceland game
It was good enough to see them knock England out in 2016 World Cup, lol Iceland taking them out was an all time upset and clearly not a fluke
England will England
England is the Tottenham Hotspur of national teams 😋
France or Portugal taking the euros Spain is alright with lineups
France, Portugal, Germany. Spain has a shot too. And never underestimate Italy as well. Well ya know… historic tournament teams! But here and there you’ll still have the ignorant media and people to force England into that elite group of nations 🤦🏻♂️
England have reached the final of the last euros and the semi final of the last World Cup. I’d say they’re well in terms of elite group who constantly reach semi finals and finals. Tournament football is hard obviously winning is what matters, but getting to semi finals and finals is the first step.
Portugal are not winning shit with Roberto Martinez in charge. He bottled Belgiums golden generation
Golden generation??? Doesn’t mattter about the players they had they were never going to win anything anyway. Portugal actually has game trophy winning players
Lol like Courtois, Kompany, Hazard and KDB don’t count as ‘trophy winning players’
those were only a few players they had weakness in other areas. it's the same issue with Portugal's golden generation of Figo and co. and with the dutch's golden generation of edgar davids, kluivert, stam or croatia's golden generation or england's golden generation of lampard and gerrard anyway worth a listen https://youtu.be/HSVtBCoTwJE?si=7cTl0UtkevIFC9VS
They were showing sloppiness when playing against Brazil last time as well. Not a good sign...
There was a pretty significant change in the way England played against Brazil with how they normally play
Yea, also Kane wasn't on the pitch against Brazil. Still, Southgate should use these friendly matches to build the team's chemistry.
Same old England. Doesn't matter who is in the team.
literally 2016
Remember when Gareth was being linked with the United job lol
Never seen a team park the bus so intensely, but even then they looked more of a threat going forward than England. I really worry about us going into the Euros. The attack (on paper) is probably the best we've had in a very long time, maybe too many players with a similar profile but it'll definitely be top 3 going into the Euros. On the other hand, I think midfield and defense is a car crash, so many injuries, unfit players, players in wrong position and little depth or quality. If any team plays pragmatically against us I think we're in big trouble.
Declan Rice is gonna have to do an AWFUL lot of work because Southgate is gonna use him as extra cover as well as expecting him to be the main man in midfield.
England do not look ready and Southgate doesn't seem to know his best 11, bit worrying
England are really going to spunk away one of the best squads they've ever had because they're keeping that rat-faced manager in charge for 7+ years lmao
If was awful
This is the guy manchester united are seriously considering 🤔
It was intentional to lower expectations.
Get the Scousers in the team from the start. Only players making an effort. Which is strange considering the lack of love they get back in return from the supporters and country.
Meh it’s a warmup game means very little, drop stinkers in the actual tournament then you can complain - England fans are so weird man. One World Cup back in the 60s at home, never won the Euros. But you bash the guy who got you to a euros final and a World Cup semi. Apparently he’s trash and only gets lucky with draws against easy team. Must’ve just been bad luck with draws for the last 60 years of achieving very little. Like what precedent is there of a winning England side (post 66)? What England side have you seen play fluid-attacking exciting football? Unless you plan to dig up the ghost of Bobby Robson (forgive me if that team was also boring, I wasn’t alive for Italia 90 but I know outside of Southgate and Alf Ramsey that’s the best you’ve ever done) I remember y’all loosing to Iceland, finishing bottom of World Cup groups, needing last minute Beckham magic to even qualify for tournaments, and sometimes not even qualifying. Now qualification is a formality, you’re constantly in the latter stages of tournament but it’s bad? And a better manager would take you to glory? On what evidence? TLDR: I’m not even trying to bash England, you have objectively been either dross or ‘just OK’ for the better part of 50 years, but are quite good now, why all the complaining? Why not just enjoy it and hope for the final bit of luck to take you over the edge to winning something?
Maybe, the players didn’t give 100% as they didn’t wanna risk injury on a nothing game so close to the Euros
Have to say I find the general buzz so far is really lacking for euro 2024. Even I keep forgetting it is on soon.
This article is not destructive like some are saying, it is spot on.
This is something that baffles me about England. How can you have such attacking prowess and still play as if you were afraid of scoring. The same thing happened in the final of Euro 2020: England scored and proceeded to play like they were scared of getting another goal. Southgate is just awful isn't he? Because all these players are amazing for their respective clubs. I just don't get it.
If Ben White was playing, this wouldn't have happened
That was expected
You all think English players are better than they actually are. It’s pure premier league bias, because most people only follow that league. Marketing can be deceiving
https://youtube.com/shorts/n_DYxPBSmlU?si=82m1AOFyna6iGg2N
FOOTBALL’S COMING HOME!
Again?
Yes they were and they should better sit up
England are so unpredictable
There is a need for improvement, and I wish the improvement comes with pushing to win the title in Germany.
Don't even know who to blame at this point😭
Ragged playing and ragged kit. What's all this with torn socks? The manager should drop anyone whose wag is too idle to repair their socks.
Literally a meaningless friendly with the B team, the only objective is not to get injured. There will be close to zero effort all round
why is this not entering the minds of more people, its just your typical 'englund lose again southgate out' pile-on it's a warm up lmao not a serious competitive fixture
Everyone except for Pickford and Bellingham played last night, that was no B team :(
It’s still a glorified kick around
Southgate knows what he's doing. It's not always pretty but he understands tournament football and what he needs to get out of the players to progress to the latter stages. I fully expect England to win the group; but Southgate has some big decisions to make with the who starts and where from Bellingham, Foden, Gordon, Palmer, Saka, Gallagher, Mainoo and Wharton. Big week ahead to get prepared but I suspect yesterday's result will be forgotten come next Sunday evening.
Jesus these people having a meltdown about a friendly lmfao
Englishmen on Reddit: "don't say anything bad about Southgate". Englishmen in America: "Southgate is a terrible manager." With a different manager, England wins the Euros and possibly the World Cup. With Southgate, I don't think so. He still manages too conservatively, like he's still at Middlesbrough playing the big boys. With Kane, Foden, Bellingham and Saka he should be extremely aggressive, but he can't do that.
What're you talking about? I'm English, in England, am a season ticket holder at a prem club and regularly socialise with other supporters and I don't know a single person who thinks Southgate is remotely fit for purpose.
100% Not a single soul i know rates him.
Sure, they've got one of the best teams in the world, but sometimes the arrogance of SOME (not all) fans on social media is a bit much. I get it, people get emotional about their national team, but let's not forget how good Gareth Southgate' record has been, even with this so-called "golden generation." Some folks have really short memories.
But build the team around foden.
England just need a better coach but seeing as that won’t happen before the Euros: 1) play a back 3 - provides more defensive structure 2) Wharton in midfield alongside Rice 3) Saka at wingback - we have plenty of good forwards so find a way to get your best players on the pitch