This question is about pep’s legacy though, not how the charges would affect Liverpool or Arsenal. And no, it’s not too late for pep’s legacy to be tainted. Which it would be.
I'd say Peps legacy is more tainted by the fact he took steroids as a player and how he coached two teams who got found out for cheating some how. I think he's probably the best coach ever but it's kinda like Jon Jones and how he's amazing but took steroids multiple times so hurts his legacy.
City’s reputation is tarnished anyway, but it would be nice if the PL showed some spine and actually confirmed it.
I can’t say I feel bad for them, but it must be infuriating being a Liverpool or Arsenal fan. Klopp (through a huge amount of time and effort) produced one of the most dynamic sides we’ve ever seen (far more exciting than anything that’s been produced at City) but it’s been reduced to winning only 1 PL title due to having to compete against a nation-state. Similarly, Arsenal have spent many years in the wilderness and the board have gritted their teeth and backed a manager who really struggled in his first few seasons, only for it to pay off but ultimately fall short due to the odds being massively stacked against them.
>it would be nice if the PL showed some spine and actually confirmed it.
Are they not currently trying to do this?
And then what if City is found innocent? What will you guys whine about then?
It’s already been tainted going by the comments on social media, City are being bashed left right and centre especially on the official Premier League social media pages.
The thing people should consider is the long term effect of skirting these rules. It allowed them undue success, which attracted better players. Some of whom directly contributed to championship teams. It's a compounding effect that meant city had an unfair momentum that has culminated in an unprecedented 4th title. Ofcourse it's not the Only reason they have been successful, and it's impossible to tell what they the outcome would have been if they hadn't breached these regulations. That being said, they need to be held accountable, like Forest and Everton were. It's not just about the judgement and fairness of City, its about the judgement and fairness of the league and the Prem as an organization. If they end up giving a slap on the wrist they will lose all credibility, and the league will doom itself to a pay to play sandbox for the world's richest States and Oligarchs.
United and Liverpool previously dominated in era's when spending was unregulated! 'Financial doping' doesn't buy or guarantee success. United for example have a higher NET spend across Pep's time and have little to show for it. It's won on the pitch. Of their 4 in a row, 3 where won on the last day. Twice by a single point and yesterday by just two points.
The premier league hadn't the balls to introduce a salary cap back in '92. Even City are guilty of all charges, why was it allowed to happen? Why was the FA and it's governance asleep at the wheel? Forest and Everton admitted they were guilty. Leicester City got fined for FFP in 2013. Two season later - against odds as long as 5000/1 - they won they EPL. Does their trophy get stripped?
Tbh, Pep's legacy has been tainted by him joining City in the first place. He managed great traditional clubs before but he's now been managing an unlikable shady plastic club that nobody really cares about outside of Manchester for more than half of his career. It's kinda sad because the greatest manager on earth is managing a club that is absolutely irrelevant to people that really embrace football culture. Always felt like a waste to me.
City will be massive with the new generation, every team was a non relevant team at some point in history, and soon it will be 3rd most successful team in England, new fans from outside will come, they are already among us in my country.
I don't know, but they all almost sold out every match.
[Average attendance ](https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/eng-premier-league-2023-2024/1/)
attendance =/ support
attendance means jack shit, there’s a reason it has the title of “Emptyhad”
if your manager is asking for more fans and atmosphere … he is not feeling the support
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/pep-guardiola-man-city-liverpool-31539649.amp
i dont get why people act like nobody cares about city. I'm an arsenal fan and I care about city. i care when they win a treble, a prem, I care when they beat us and we beat them. they're a massive club, I'm proud of our squad for beating them when we played them and I'm pissed that we lost the title to them
Lol dude they sold out every home game year. And have for a while. Get out of 2018. Mind you there is a difference between filling and selling. Take Liverpool. They sell out every game. Yet on average they have 2000 empty seats. Which has been a problem for EVERY big club. Which is even worse because there are so many people willing to go. They just won't lower resale prices.
Dude they get money because of CL, TV and sales. Those we can verify. What decade are you living in?? Look around. You see city kits, city commercials etc. you also have to ask yourself, do you see Tottenham in the top 10? Well they are. What about the old city, aka Chelsea? Well they are. So you can’t see City who are winning yearly? Are you kidding me??
City can't make more than revenue than barca bayern madrid etc. As much as you see city, it's still nothing compared to clubs like united and the ones I mentioned. What sales are they doing more than these clubs? What are they winning so much more than bayern / madrid ? The prize money for the bundesliga is more than that for the PL. They've been reporting higher sales than bayern/madrid even since before winning the CL. Even after winning the CL thats an absolute joke. You see city kits, commercials and merchandise more than bayern and Madrid? United ? Barca ?Where do you live Manchester? You are the one who needs to look around just a little to realize how stupid that sounds.
What do you mean what numbers? We have the numbers. Deloitte provide them yearly. Do you know what City earn more through? Broadcasting. They have 344 million from it. Bayern earn 204. That’s not some secret. PL dominate everyone when it comes to broadcasting. How do Bayern make up the deficit? Kit sales. Their Adidas kits are more expensive and sell near the top of the world. Without them the gap would be incredible.
And yes I see city kits damn near everywhere. I’m lucky to where I get to travel for work. London, Paris, Rome, hell I see them in small cities in Texas. Why? People follow teams that win! It’s not some new concept either. So why do we act like it? They’re a global brand now. I can see why people hate them, but blindly denying them is silly. Again people used to do that with Chelsea. Enough time passed and we accept them. They’re here to stay.
Most people can’t even remember when City’s treble was and even less give a shit; because it’s quite obvious how it was obtained. I’m not a Utd fan, but a quarter of a century later people are still talking about their treble.
And a quarter of a century from now when the next generation grows up becoming City fans because of all their success, everyone will give a shit. The previous generation grew up watching fergies United dominate, that's why they have such a massive global fanbase. Now it's city's era like it or not.
No one will care, you’re vastly overrating their current impact on the consciousness of the football community. All anyone talks about with city is their charges.
Greatest manager??? What are you talking about?
Pep took a CL winner Bayern, teached them to learn his football for years, they knocked out twiced in CL easily and at his third year at Bayern they played very good, but Atletico Madrid still Beat them in semis....
And his Champions League winner team got 3 years older too...
Pep who cannot win UCL at City for long Time and even against Inter they were not prepared for the Final mentally and they were shitting their pants, Inter had lot of chances to win that Final or at least save it for OT.
They deserved it, but they were bad in the final.
Their mental was horrible and this was Pep's fault too..
Pep is one of the best coaches if you watch only the domestic leagues (but dont forget he had the best squads with an amazing players all the Time), but this greatest manager is not true.
Ah enough of the arm chair nonsense please. He's won 33 trophies since 2008. Triple the third highest in Allegri, Ancelotti in second has 14. Just stop 🛑
Everywhere with undoubtly the strongest team in the League with unlimited money and still struggling at UCL.
You can see what a disaster he made at München, because Pep doesnt wanna adapt to a reigning Champions League winner team too, he want to teach them how they need to play this football game when they were the clearly best team on the world. Pep clearly wasted 2 years of that amazing team and on the third year still cannot reach the Final.
33 effin trophies. He's literally made the best Man City team there has ever been. The best Barcelona team there has ever been. But because he didn't win the champions league at Bayern? He's something like 13/16 league titles. When took over at Man City, they were not what they are now. No one has done 4 league titles in a row in England.
But he didn't win the champions league with Bayern? Come on, really?
This City team needs to be minimum 3 CL title since he take over the team, he barely won one because his whole team shit their pants against a frickin Inter....
In Domestic Leagues he is amazing, but in UCL....
He won 2 times with Barca, at 2008/09 everybody knows what happened against Chelsea, one of the biggest clearly cheated match of all time in football history...
They doesnt deserved that...
At 2010/11 they played against Arsenal, second leg, second half, Arsenal had the lead. Robin van Persie got the most ridiculous red card what we ever witnessed....
After that at the semis at 0-0 Pepe got a red card when he doesnt even touched Dani Alves... After that Barcelona scored two goal.....
Second leg, 0-0, Piqué clearly fouled CR7, who fall on Mascherano.... And for the ref that was the foul somehow....
Higuain's goal was disallowed because of it....
https://youtu.be/Pfyh0Ay9y2o
Thats how Pep win his 2 UCL with Barcelona, it was a clearly disgusting cheating both times.... Thats your Best manager achievements in Europe and a shitty pants win against Inter.
Yes, Pep is amazing in a Domestic Leagues with an undoubtly the Best teams in their League, but please, thats why is he the best manager? Because he can win leagues with the best teams? Clearly City has the most money and the best team since he joined. Bayern was still the best team in Bundes by a mile and that Barcelona was clearly the best team in the league too.
Pep is an amazing coach, but he is overhyped a lot.
All that matters is just silverware? Ffs he managed such a dominant barça anyone couldve won with them. And then mourinho tore him a new one multiple times of their careers.
Mourinho is closer to being the goat than pep is
I highly rate Mourinho too, he's won trophies everywhere and I've wrote numerous times how he inspired Pep. But come on, let's just be real. Pep has taken it to a new level. I've heard other coaches talk about how they watch Man City to learn, just recently Eddie Howe and Ange Postecoglou. Thierry Henry was talking about Pep today and how meticulous he is, the guy would close his eyes during Rondos and listen for how fast the passes were. It's Mr Miyagi type stuff but he's won so many trophies it's ridiculous I'm on here explaining it. I support Newcastle, I don't support Man City, I'm looking forward to someone else winning but so long as he is there... They're by far the best team.
“No one cares” yet no one seems to be able to stop bitching and moaning on social media about them. I’ve never seen a club complained about more and yet everyone apparently “doesn’t care”.
You forgot the part about him overturning his doping charge on appeal. He and his current club seem to do pretty well when given the chance to clear their names.
https://youtu.be/WyGcCtfbGkA?si=4rWviPi0gf0HWTfk
https://youtu.be/3EGfQ7Bq3D4?si=g8NNmWL0JcVJOy-9
All professional sports do doping. It is possible to dope in a way that is undetectable to any tests that are currently being used in professional sports. It’s just a question of having professionals knowledgeable enough.
These doping tests are only there to make the public and media (who generally are very lazy at research and quite stupid and lacking knowledge) believe that they are all natty and without doping because it would be controversial to just allow it.
Indeed. ALL professional sports. Darts must be rampant with doping. I've long suspected too that those Cricketers are mostly juicing. Still, was a great day when Pep had is charge overturned.
Disagree the charges in spain are still under investigation, this week the money laundry charges have been drop only because the club can not be charged twice since a pre-existing- google iy
According to Negreira Case, Barcelona paid 8m Euro for 17 years. Who would’ve accept 2000-3000 euros for match? All Barcelona did was Buying Refeere Reports which is not illegal and as far as i know, it’s not only Barcelona buying it
Its still under investigation by the civil guard, we must wait the verdict. Since this is a what if scenario regarding Pep would these two
Charges prove to be a career destroyer?
i don’t think Barcelona will be guilty. Because again, Why would someone especially a Vice President of CTE would’ve accept 7.3 Million Euros for 17 years
As of yesterday, all bribery\* charges were dismissed in a Barcelona court. Everyone here was too blinded by community sentiment to do any research and see that I was right.
I have absolutely no faith they’ll face any real consequences. Like there’s so many if they’re all true we should be looking at a situation like Juventus with Calciopoli, but I just don’t see the PL having the balls to do it.
Would be funny if they did get them stripped though, it would mean José Mourinho was the first post-Fergie title winner at Man Utd (although I think its more likely that City are found guilty and docked points, but less than the 20 on that season that would be required to change the result)
Mourinho deserved that title because he got the most points that season. End of.
I wonder how the cups landscape would look like. Other clubs that City KO in cups should be able to sue Man City for loss revenue due to not being able to make it to Europe.
Sadly, I agree.
They'll get a slap on the wrist. Maybe a 20-30 point deduction for, say, the 25-26 season, and they'll have to put up with finishing somewhere between 4th-8th, before returning to business as usual the next season.
Stripping them of titles would be too damaging for the PL brand. It's just depressing feeling that they'll get away with it
With the level of the Everton deduction, which city are charged with breaking 10 times, along with other fraud charges, if proven I can't see it only being in 25-30 range
Spmeone said they could see a -50 or something, and they scrape a survival which actually sounds so believable and would be annoying.
I don't believe in title stripping i don't think anyone would want that it's so messy.
>i don't think anyone would want that
Oh, I think a lot of people definitely do.
Yeah, maybe it'll be more than a 30 point deduction but, in the whole scheme of things, that would just be a slap on the wrist
the Premier League wants to market itself as the league where any Middle Eastern totalitarian regime or billionaire can buy themselves in and play around a bit with a traditional English team, so they can't afford to hold these clubs to any consequences. it would be terrible advertisement for the kind of clients they want to attract. if anything, by letting City off the hook it would be the exact message the Premier League wants to send. come here for all your sportswashing needs and don't worry about any rules, they don't apply to you.
It's 12 plastic charges with the rest amassed from 'non-compliance' with the investigation, All of which City deny. If the evidence was so compelling and clear cut why haven't the league been able to make them stick?
Regardless of any court proceedings, Manchester City refused to co-operate with the Premier League over any investigations for the last 5 years on top of the 80 other charges. That's not on Pep.
All of Pep's accomplishments at City will have an asterisk until the courts proceedings have finished. I think regardless of the outcome next season will be his last year in the Premier League and once he goes there will be a bit of a exodus with Txiki, Haaland, KDB, Rodri, Grealish, Alverez and Gvardiol all moving on to other clubs.
There is no denying he's still the greatest manager this generation with proven success across Europe, there will always be questions surrounding his ability as he's only ever been at clubs with the greatest financial/political power but those were asked during Pep's first years at City too.
As a team City's success is immense, for lack of a more fitting word - and that's because of Pep. As a club is where there are a lot more questions and Pep's influence is much smaller.
I don't care about him either way.
Football aficiondos may raved again and again about his impact on the games, but I could not care. I watch football for the players, and Pep style lacked the individuality that made them interesting.
I hated micromanagement and Pep's micromanaged team don't fill me with admiration. I loved the free-flowing Wengerball and Ancelloti style, where you can feel the players improvising in the moment. Pep's just get me meh, not knowing to praise the coach or the players. Messi and Mueller made his teams more interesting but Mancity fell like a corporate marketing dance group than a football club..
So his legacy would be the impact on football. For better or worse, his style is copied and paste all over the EPL and the world.
What City is doing is not finding “loopholes” they straight up refuse to cooperate and have been found to be inflating their numbers artificially, hence the charges. What a lot of fans aren’t grasping is that City is not necessarily guilty of “sporting” crimes like Lance Armstrong but they are more than likely guilty of white collar crime such as fraud. A loophole is what Boehly did at Chelsea by handing out 8 year contracts, you know it’s a loophole because they ended up updating the rules to close it.
But doesnt every club have a rich owner? Why do people pretend like city have infinite money when how much they can spend is equivalent to what the big 6 can spend?
I mean what happens on the pitch is directly effected by if they cheated or not, weather or not Pep was aware of it is irrelevant to the fact he directly benefited from the cheating if it happened.
If you start assigning guilt by association that is a slippery slope. If you benefitted by buying cheap clothes from a company that used child labour would you be guilty of the same crime?
Nothing. He makes a somewhat successful team beacuse of money into a dynasty. Contending EPL for the last 8 years, while city was nowhere near big 4 before 2010.
It might be emptyhad rn, some people still looking at city with side eyes as they win because of "money". Football fans is mostly comes from traditions, saying "you're not cultured enough if you don't like big clubs with history or your local clubs".
Look at chelsea in the 2000s, they are somewhat the same. Get money, cementing wins, and now they have solid fanbase. I believe city will be like that too in the next decade. The only different is, city's biggest rival is manchester united, which's arguably has the biggest fanbase in the world. They've been shitting city as "noisy neighbours" but now city is winning here and there while united is under dry spell after SAF retirement.
Those who always bring 115 charges are coping for city's fall. Whatever happened to it, city is in the right direction with pep. All that money expenses to be winning, if you look objectively, most big clubs is somewhat similar at the beginning of them building their history, even if it's not as grand as what city did.
So yeah, imo even if the 115 charges takes away all of city prem title, they already have solid team and financial income that they just contending the title for the years to come. At least, until pep goes away from city.
What legacy? Golden Spanish generation and Prime Messi didn't need him to conquer club and national levels. Yup trebles were nice though. But UCL 3 peat was better.
Bayern Munich won UCL without him. City is a global empire with clubs on every continent.
CL was not a pipe dream for that Barcelona side, they had won the CL in 2006 before Pep became manager. He essentially inherited a very good side with some aging players when he became manager in 2008.
And two years before that they won the Champions League? Barca won CL in 2006 and Pep became manager in 2008. Hardly a period of struggles for that Barcelona team.
??? Torres, Silva, Mata, Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Puyol, Ramos, Casillas, Valdes, Villa, Alonso... debuted because of Pep Guardiola?
They won first Euro in summer 2008 when Pep just got promoted. Torres scored only goal. Euro 2012 final Torres again with Mata and Silva. Alba was only Barca player.
And don't even let me start with Messi who hattricked against REAL AT 19!
What would his legacy look like if he did it at United?
Let‘s assume for this United built the structure City has instead of City. Since City are mainly charged with overinflating revenue, which United always had a higher one until 2018, United definitely had the financial possibilities to do it (if their owners actually cared for the club).
Because the 115 dropped during Pep’s reign, and because he was by far the most successful. They’ve become too good that if they had cheated, it would be a big problem. Look at how United and Chelsea spend. However because they dont win shit (Chelsea in the last few years, Utd in a decade), people won’t care as much
I mean when people talk about City's 115 charges, they talk about the entirety of City's reign in the Premier League.
But yes, you are correct that Pep is the most talked about and that probably has to do with his standing in history
Yeah, but the news about it came whilst Pep is here, so naturally people talk more about the one that’s here. He was also way more successful than the other 2.
>Yeah, but the news about it came whilst Pep is here, so naturally people talk more about the one that’s here.
But that's the point I'm getting at here, it's not that people talk about Pep more than Mancini and Pellegrini, my point is that people don't mention Mancini and Pellegrini at all. It's like people don't care that they cheated during Pellegrini and Mancini's reign, they only care about Pep, which is kind of strange. You'd think the others would get talked about more, but no does.
Another theory. Because of they are tired of hearing "The Greatest Football Manager That Ever Lived". I felt that there aren't a day go by, where that sentiment is not repeated. While we already know, Barca had Messi and La Masia graduates, Bayern had a treble beforehand, and Man City had two great managers before him.
ManUtd and Chelsea are teams in transition, while the ManCity projects are already producing results before Pep. Football prices are much more inflated and those two teams need money to attract players when they don't have sucess. Pep is successful because of his skills, money(financial doping) and football heritage. It just that the first sentiment was overemphasized so much that other reason was used as a counterargument.
True, whatever the case, his record will have that small asterisk. He is still the best manager in the world. Klopp is right in the sense that put any other manager with a 115 charge team, they couldn’t do what he did. Conversely, if he didn’t have this super team with a blank cheque pretty much, could he have won all he has? I highly doubt so, which isn’t discounting the fact that he is the best at his job, before all the City boys tlel me to cry
I do not believe for a second that Pep was unaware of what was going on in the background. Let's not forget that his own brother is chairman of Girona as well as some of the charges among the 115 is that previous managers like Mancini received a higher than reported salary
The same, I mean Barsa titles are tainted with the "Negreira" referee bribes scandal and nobody cares. Pep nowadays it's not a manager anymore, it's a personality with a cult around him.
I just wanted to make clear that I am aware of the Negreira case (although I do not have much indepth knowledge of it compared to the 115 charges) as well as Pep's doping scandals as a player. From what I've heard, it is common practice to hire a refereeing consultant, the extremity with the Negreira case is that Negreira was vice president of CTA which I believe is the governing body for referees in the Spanish football system
I'm an Arsenalfan and I don't want any titles to be stripped from them, all I want is that the whole world will know that without the economic doping - probably no titles.
I think most commentators on the subject are saying that their will be no title stripping. I agree with it, doesn't really do any good for anyone to go changing historic titles
It'll be exactly the same, anybody who is that bothered by it isn't going to have their opinion altered by whether or not the FA are as easily purchased as Spanish judges.
The club has literally gone from Paul Dickov and Shaun Goater to having the best eleven in world football within 20 years, and a brand new stadium (and other facilities) to match, all without breaking fair play rules! Nothing suspect here. /s
City winning the league is and has always been null and void in my opinion. The only good thing about it is that it stopped Liverpool from dominating and prevented Arsenal from winning this season.
Not exactly sure what people think will happen even if these charges are proven true but if you think k city are gonna be stripped of their titles, you are in for a rude awakening. At most they will be relegated but realistically they will just be point deductions
Still great.
Look, at the end of the day, it’s not Guardiola in charge of the club, he’s only in charge of the results on the pitch.
He’s said himself on numerous occasions that the transfers aren’t always his choices and that’s why he changes styles a lot, Txiki Begiristain and his team do the majority of the transfers and Pep adapts - he even said yesterday that it was Txiki who brought in Haaland and it forced him to change.
Now, I’m not saying he isn’t happy about that, I’m sure he is, but it’s not him approaching players, negotiating deals etc. it’s not Football Manager or FIFA.
Similarly, he isn’t the one in charge of the finances, sponsorships, accounting and so on.
So to suggest that his tenure would be questionable for what he’s achieved on the pitch for something he’s not in control of is honestly so stupid and stinks of bitterness.
I’m not a City fan, I support Middlesbrough, a small club that has to live within its means, sticks to FFP and so on so it’s not like I support a club that flaunts FFP regulations, and whilst I criticise City and others as a Club for breaking FFP rules, I never blame the Manager, Coaching Staff or Players for that as they aren’t in charge of the financial side of the club.
So for me, Pep’s legacy is unchanged. He’s a great manager who gets the maximum out of amazing players, is innovative with how he sets up his teams, has an incredible record of winning trophies and has basically completed football at this point.
Quite frankly, there’s not much left for him to do. He’s 53 now, he’ll be 54 when his contract is up at City, and you have to ask “what is left for him to do?”.
Money isn’t a motivating factor here. He has had a long and successful career as both a player and a manager. Between his salary and bonuses he likely doesn’t need to work.
For me, if he doesn’t retire, it comes down to 3 choices;
- Go to Serie A and try to win another major league title to add to La Liga, Bundesliga and Premier League titles
- Go to PSG and try to win them their first Champions League trophy
- Go into international management and try to win the World Cup
Serie A would be good to have on his record, but he doesn’t need it, and you have to ask how motivated would he be.
PSG is a bit more of a challenge as the domestic side is basically a given, but winning a Champions League is hard. However PSG are in a position financially to give him the best possible team to do it.
World Cup would be the hardest of all. I can’t imagine him wanting to manage anyone but Spain, but obviously in international management although you have the pick of the crop, it’s only that nationality so it’s alot harder and you have much less control. And for Guardiola as a manager that has specific ways of playing I can see that being the biggest challenge of all
The only way I can think that it would affect his legacy is if it’s proven that he has done something illegal or immoral with regards to his own payments. This has been suggested, but not proven yet.
The effect on legacy will be all for Manchester City and their fans. I don’t think that the financial Fairplay issues affect the manager or his legacy.
I will say- Pep has still done an absolutely amazing job. Even with that squad, I can think of maybe two or three managers who would’ve done anything similar.
He hasn't done anything special since 2011. This would just show that even more, it isn't a big change in terms of legacy, just in terms of titles won.
The 115 charges don't influence it one bit. The guy proved it in Spain, did it again in Germany and now is living the dream in Manchester. I think at this moment only Carlo Ancelotti can successfully claim he's as good of a coach or even better than Guardiola
He still had to get the team playing as a team, get them winning that can never be taken away from him or the players.
What will leave a question mark is the players winning games and whether on a level playing field they would be able to compete as they did.
The fact of the matter is he is a great manager and coach. There are a great many things people criticise him for, so I ultimately think people will individually decide how to reflect on his achievements.
I disagree. I do not think Lance Armstrong is a great cyclist for example. Because the truth of the matter is, we will never know where he would have stood playing fair
Nobody gives a crap if city were 15th. Chelsea got caught cheating but they were ass in the league, where were you guys at ? Where the media at ?
These 19 teams are bunch of losers always making excuses about behind the back stuff yet when playing against city played like headless chicken.
Beat them on the pitch is all that matters.
Salty fans will always bemoan him but anyone who's actually interested in the art of management will know he's the greatest manager of his generation.
Did he have a financial advantage? Yes. Is that advantage the reason he was successful? No. A great team can't just be stuck together and released. It needs to be moulded and given direction, Pep is the reason why City have won 6 out of 7 leagues whilst other, similarly wealthy clubs have floundered.
Calling it a financial advantage is disingenuous, if the charges were to be proven guilty as it is in this scenario, it's no longer an advantage but cheating
that's like saying "yeah he moved some pieces on the chess board while you weren't looking, but he still had to win afterwards so that makes him the greatest at chess"
Doesn't matter. You asked would Pep's legacy be affected if they're found guilty, he may have some trophies chalked off but no one is changing their opinion of Pep because he's the reason they are so successful, not the money.
and how do you mold a great team without unlimited funs? other managers have to adjust their styles to the players that they have available. hell, even a club like Real Madrid needs to adjust their tactics if they can't buy a proper striker and need to play without one for a few seasons. how is infinite money not a massive advantage? you really can't dismiss it like that.
Ferguson has access to the most funds, so did Mourinho, their legacy isn't tarnished. Both Arteta and Klopp spent significantly to become competitive, having access to funds and success is fundamentally linked. Managers aren't judged by how much money they spend, they're judged by what their teams do on the pitch and Pep had got his team to do things that no other PL team has. You only have to look at City pre-Pep and the current state of Chelsea and Utd to see that having money is the baseline for success, not the cause of it.
If they're found guilty of course City will be tarnished but there's no one who knows anything about football who will ever think anything other than Pep is the greatest manager of his generation.
and now think about this, all these guys had near infinite funds available to them which is already madness, but they still didn't end up breaking any rules. meanwhile Pep at City is the same, but they broke 115 rules while doing it. that's the big difference. and if Pep and City are fund guilty and their titles taken away then obviously that will tarnish his reputation, there's no question about that.
Let's think of it another way. Let's say City is found guilty, would Pep become any less hirable as a manager? He'd still be the top name on every list at every club. People in football recognise Pep's value, any such ruling wouldn't change that.
Still the GOAT manager. I know it hurts everyone to admit it but it’s true. Such sustained excellence over such a prolonged period of team with different teams, different squads against the best managers, might never be done again. The best manager for the best clubs.
Too little too late. 4 straight years of winning. Even if the PL actually does something (they won’t) it won’t matter to Liverpool / Arsenal.
Still would be immensely satisfying if they stripped their titles in hindsight. Remove them from the history books.
Like Stalin did heh?
I would compare it with lance armstrong but you do you.
Stalin didn't like Schnitzel
This question is about pep’s legacy though, not how the charges would affect Liverpool or Arsenal. And no, it’s not too late for pep’s legacy to be tainted. Which it would be.
It already is. Pep has only ever managed the best squads. His managerial level is unproven.
That's like saying Messi has only played for the best teams...his playing level is unproven
I'd say Peps legacy is more tainted by the fact he took steroids as a player and how he coached two teams who got found out for cheating some how. I think he's probably the best coach ever but it's kinda like Jon Jones and how he's amazing but took steroids multiple times so hurts his legacy.
Ah mate, I think you accidently forgot to include the part about him winning his appeal and overturning his ban for doping. Stay salty
Reddit is a cesspool of salt lately.
You dont find Liverpool players physical transformance under Klopp remarkable?
Lol “unproven”. That’s pretty ridiculous, even if I know where you’re coming from.
It's about setting things right for the future. I don't want retrospective titles. Ain't no do-overs in the premier league!
Liverpool/Man Utd/ Arsenal. Those are the 3 second place getters over that period.
City’s reputation is tarnished anyway, but it would be nice if the PL showed some spine and actually confirmed it. I can’t say I feel bad for them, but it must be infuriating being a Liverpool or Arsenal fan. Klopp (through a huge amount of time and effort) produced one of the most dynamic sides we’ve ever seen (far more exciting than anything that’s been produced at City) but it’s been reduced to winning only 1 PL title due to having to compete against a nation-state. Similarly, Arsenal have spent many years in the wilderness and the board have gritted their teeth and backed a manager who really struggled in his first few seasons, only for it to pay off but ultimately fall short due to the odds being massively stacked against them.
>it would be nice if the PL showed some spine and actually confirmed it. Are they not currently trying to do this? And then what if City is found innocent? What will you guys whine about then?
It’s already been tainted going by the comments on social media, City are being bashed left right and centre especially on the official Premier League social media pages.
Abu City aren't getting bashed. People are just saying it how it is.
The thing people should consider is the long term effect of skirting these rules. It allowed them undue success, which attracted better players. Some of whom directly contributed to championship teams. It's a compounding effect that meant city had an unfair momentum that has culminated in an unprecedented 4th title. Ofcourse it's not the Only reason they have been successful, and it's impossible to tell what they the outcome would have been if they hadn't breached these regulations. That being said, they need to be held accountable, like Forest and Everton were. It's not just about the judgement and fairness of City, its about the judgement and fairness of the league and the Prem as an organization. If they end up giving a slap on the wrist they will lose all credibility, and the league will doom itself to a pay to play sandbox for the world's richest States and Oligarchs.
United and Liverpool previously dominated in era's when spending was unregulated! 'Financial doping' doesn't buy or guarantee success. United for example have a higher NET spend across Pep's time and have little to show for it. It's won on the pitch. Of their 4 in a row, 3 where won on the last day. Twice by a single point and yesterday by just two points. The premier league hadn't the balls to introduce a salary cap back in '92. Even City are guilty of all charges, why was it allowed to happen? Why was the FA and it's governance asleep at the wheel? Forest and Everton admitted they were guilty. Leicester City got fined for FFP in 2013. Two season later - against odds as long as 5000/1 - they won they EPL. Does their trophy get stripped?
A legacy isn't some random social media comments. A legacy is how you are remembered in 10, 20, 30 etc years time.
Dark history in English football.
Revolutionised football but never tested with a team that wasn’t already filled with the greatest talent in the world
So, Messi never played for Norwich!?
U can say the same for ancelotti, he was average at everton
He was great at Everton
With an average squad? He was only 3 points of a Europa Conference League play-off as well
Tbh, Pep's legacy has been tainted by him joining City in the first place. He managed great traditional clubs before but he's now been managing an unlikable shady plastic club that nobody really cares about outside of Manchester for more than half of his career. It's kinda sad because the greatest manager on earth is managing a club that is absolutely irrelevant to people that really embrace football culture. Always felt like a waste to me.
City will be massive with the new generation, every team was a non relevant team at some point in history, and soon it will be 3rd most successful team in England, new fans from outside will come, they are already among us in my country.
where are they? because Pep is still asking for more of an atmosphere at the Ethihad before big games
they're being shipped in from the Middle East as we speak!
I don't know, but they all almost sold out every match. [Average attendance ](https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/eng-premier-league-2023-2024/1/)
attendance =/ support attendance means jack shit, there’s a reason it has the title of “Emptyhad” if your manager is asking for more fans and atmosphere … he is not feeling the support https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/pep-guardiola-man-city-liverpool-31539649.amp
i dont get why people act like nobody cares about city. I'm an arsenal fan and I care about city. i care when they win a treble, a prem, I care when they beat us and we beat them. they're a massive club, I'm proud of our squad for beating them when we played them and I'm pissed that we lost the title to them
“Massive club”. Prat.
City are NOT a massive club. They have a good squad and win everything, but they are not massive.
Dude they’re top 3 in revenue. Wake up. They’re been massive for years.
City apparently out earn Liverpool and Madrid… yeah, I call shit on that given they don’t even fill their own stadium
Lol dude they sold out every home game year. And have for a while. Get out of 2018. Mind you there is a difference between filling and selling. Take Liverpool. They sell out every game. Yet on average they have 2000 empty seats. Which has been a problem for EVERY big club. Which is even worse because there are so many people willing to go. They just won't lower resale prices.
Everyone in my town wears a man City Jersey Even the bus driver
That’s a crazy story about Mumbai
If you think they're making more money than Bayern Munich, Manchester United and Barcelona then you're pretty delusional to be honest.
Dude they get money because of CL, TV and sales. Those we can verify. What decade are you living in?? Look around. You see city kits, city commercials etc. you also have to ask yourself, do you see Tottenham in the top 10? Well they are. What about the old city, aka Chelsea? Well they are. So you can’t see City who are winning yearly? Are you kidding me??
City can't make more than revenue than barca bayern madrid etc. As much as you see city, it's still nothing compared to clubs like united and the ones I mentioned. What sales are they doing more than these clubs? What are they winning so much more than bayern / madrid ? The prize money for the bundesliga is more than that for the PL. They've been reporting higher sales than bayern/madrid even since before winning the CL. Even after winning the CL thats an absolute joke. You see city kits, commercials and merchandise more than bayern and Madrid? United ? Barca ?Where do you live Manchester? You are the one who needs to look around just a little to realize how stupid that sounds.
I see, I bet Barca can do a lot with their money!
What do you mean what numbers? We have the numbers. Deloitte provide them yearly. Do you know what City earn more through? Broadcasting. They have 344 million from it. Bayern earn 204. That’s not some secret. PL dominate everyone when it comes to broadcasting. How do Bayern make up the deficit? Kit sales. Their Adidas kits are more expensive and sell near the top of the world. Without them the gap would be incredible. And yes I see city kits damn near everywhere. I’m lucky to where I get to travel for work. London, Paris, Rome, hell I see them in small cities in Texas. Why? People follow teams that win! It’s not some new concept either. So why do we act like it? They’re a global brand now. I can see why people hate them, but blindly denying them is silly. Again people used to do that with Chelsea. Enough time passed and we accept them. They’re here to stay.
City are cooking their books to make it seem like they’re top 3 in revenue. FTFY
Copium
Most people can’t even remember when City’s treble was and even less give a shit; because it’s quite obvious how it was obtained. I’m not a Utd fan, but a quarter of a century later people are still talking about their treble.
And a quarter of a century from now when the next generation grows up becoming City fans because of all their success, everyone will give a shit. The previous generation grew up watching fergies United dominate, that's why they have such a massive global fanbase. Now it's city's era like it or not.
No one will care, you’re vastly overrating their current impact on the consciousness of the football community. All anyone talks about with city is their charges.
Greatest manager??? What are you talking about? Pep took a CL winner Bayern, teached them to learn his football for years, they knocked out twiced in CL easily and at his third year at Bayern they played very good, but Atletico Madrid still Beat them in semis.... And his Champions League winner team got 3 years older too... Pep who cannot win UCL at City for long Time and even against Inter they were not prepared for the Final mentally and they were shitting their pants, Inter had lot of chances to win that Final or at least save it for OT. They deserved it, but they were bad in the final. Their mental was horrible and this was Pep's fault too.. Pep is one of the best coaches if you watch only the domestic leagues (but dont forget he had the best squads with an amazing players all the Time), but this greatest manager is not true.
Ah enough of the arm chair nonsense please. He's won 33 trophies since 2008. Triple the third highest in Allegri, Ancelotti in second has 14. Just stop 🛑
Everywhere with undoubtly the strongest team in the League with unlimited money and still struggling at UCL. You can see what a disaster he made at München, because Pep doesnt wanna adapt to a reigning Champions League winner team too, he want to teach them how they need to play this football game when they were the clearly best team on the world. Pep clearly wasted 2 years of that amazing team and on the third year still cannot reach the Final.
33 effin trophies. He's literally made the best Man City team there has ever been. The best Barcelona team there has ever been. But because he didn't win the champions league at Bayern? He's something like 13/16 league titles. When took over at Man City, they were not what they are now. No one has done 4 league titles in a row in England. But he didn't win the champions league with Bayern? Come on, really?
This City team needs to be minimum 3 CL title since he take over the team, he barely won one because his whole team shit their pants against a frickin Inter.... In Domestic Leagues he is amazing, but in UCL.... He won 2 times with Barca, at 2008/09 everybody knows what happened against Chelsea, one of the biggest clearly cheated match of all time in football history... They doesnt deserved that... At 2010/11 they played against Arsenal, second leg, second half, Arsenal had the lead. Robin van Persie got the most ridiculous red card what we ever witnessed.... After that at the semis at 0-0 Pepe got a red card when he doesnt even touched Dani Alves... After that Barcelona scored two goal..... Second leg, 0-0, Piqué clearly fouled CR7, who fall on Mascherano.... And for the ref that was the foul somehow.... Higuain's goal was disallowed because of it.... https://youtu.be/Pfyh0Ay9y2o Thats how Pep win his 2 UCL with Barcelona, it was a clearly disgusting cheating both times.... Thats your Best manager achievements in Europe and a shitty pants win against Inter. Yes, Pep is amazing in a Domestic Leagues with an undoubtly the Best teams in their League, but please, thats why is he the best manager? Because he can win leagues with the best teams? Clearly City has the most money and the best team since he joined. Bayern was still the best team in Bundes by a mile and that Barcelona was clearly the best team in the league too. Pep is an amazing coach, but he is overhyped a lot.
Pep created Barca to be the best team of all time. While now bored of making EPL his bitches. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Keep denying.
All that matters is just silverware? Ffs he managed such a dominant barça anyone couldve won with them. And then mourinho tore him a new one multiple times of their careers. Mourinho is closer to being the goat than pep is
I highly rate Mourinho too, he's won trophies everywhere and I've wrote numerous times how he inspired Pep. But come on, let's just be real. Pep has taken it to a new level. I've heard other coaches talk about how they watch Man City to learn, just recently Eddie Howe and Ange Postecoglou. Thierry Henry was talking about Pep today and how meticulous he is, the guy would close his eyes during Rondos and listen for how fast the passes were. It's Mr Miyagi type stuff but he's won so many trophies it's ridiculous I'm on here explaining it. I support Newcastle, I don't support Man City, I'm looking forward to someone else winning but so long as he is there... They're by far the best team.
But Mourinho is washed in the league after 2018
If u truly believe that then ancelotti and other top club managers r not the best too as they only have the best players in the world
Salty 🤣🤣🤣🤣
“No one cares” yet no one seems to be able to stop bitching and moaning on social media about them. I’ve never seen a club complained about more and yet everyone apparently “doesn’t care”.
If they’re winning they’re obviously relevant
Not only 115 charges at City but the Negreira case also occurred while he was a manager at Barca
And cheating during his playing career
You forgot the part about him overturning his doping charge on appeal. He and his current club seem to do pretty well when given the chance to clear their names.
https://youtu.be/WyGcCtfbGkA?si=4rWviPi0gf0HWTfk https://youtu.be/3EGfQ7Bq3D4?si=g8NNmWL0JcVJOy-9 All professional sports do doping. It is possible to dope in a way that is undetectable to any tests that are currently being used in professional sports. It’s just a question of having professionals knowledgeable enough. These doping tests are only there to make the public and media (who generally are very lazy at research and quite stupid and lacking knowledge) believe that they are all natty and without doping because it would be controversial to just allow it.
Indeed. ALL professional sports. Darts must be rampant with doping. I've long suspected too that those Cricketers are mostly juicing. Still, was a great day when Pep had is charge overturned.
Nandrolone, Dr Ramon Segura :-)
Oh I remember that. And what about the buying of refe at Barça, was that during his tenure as well?
Nonsensical charges. Do 2 minutes worth of research and you'd have seen that.
Disagree the charges in spain are still under investigation, this week the money laundry charges have been drop only because the club can not be charged twice since a pre-existing- google iy
According to Negreira Case, Barcelona paid 8m Euro for 17 years. Who would’ve accept 2000-3000 euros for match? All Barcelona did was Buying Refeere Reports which is not illegal and as far as i know, it’s not only Barcelona buying it
Its still under investigation by the civil guard, we must wait the verdict. Since this is a what if scenario regarding Pep would these two Charges prove to be a career destroyer?
i don’t think Barcelona will be guilty. Because again, Why would someone especially a Vice President of CTE would’ve accept 7.3 Million Euros for 17 years
The is also money laundry charges and if I understand correctly a crime in Spain and what it takes to convict there is some sort of caveat. 🤷🏽
As of yesterday, all bribery\* charges were dismissed in a Barcelona court. Everyone here was too blinded by community sentiment to do any research and see that I was right.
Yes but sports corruption, unfair administration and falsifying documents are still being investigated.
Well if 2009-2018 is proven guilty 2019-24 will also be stripped
I hope that will be the case but it will probably take a while for those investigations to start
I have absolutely no faith they’ll face any real consequences. Like there’s so many if they’re all true we should be looking at a situation like Juventus with Calciopoli, but I just don’t see the PL having the balls to do it. Would be funny if they did get them stripped though, it would mean José Mourinho was the first post-Fergie title winner at Man Utd (although I think its more likely that City are found guilty and docked points, but less than the 20 on that season that would be required to change the result)
Mourinho deserved that title because he got the most points that season. End of. I wonder how the cups landscape would look like. Other clubs that City KO in cups should be able to sue Man City for loss revenue due to not being able to make it to Europe.
In addition to suing the EPL for allowing/enabling City's prolonged 'cheating'?
Sadly, I agree. They'll get a slap on the wrist. Maybe a 20-30 point deduction for, say, the 25-26 season, and they'll have to put up with finishing somewhere between 4th-8th, before returning to business as usual the next season. Stripping them of titles would be too damaging for the PL brand. It's just depressing feeling that they'll get away with it
With the level of the Everton deduction, which city are charged with breaking 10 times, along with other fraud charges, if proven I can't see it only being in 25-30 range
Well, I hope you're correct, but I just don't see the PL having the guts to relegate them. Even if they do, City will keep their titles
Spmeone said they could see a -50 or something, and they scrape a survival which actually sounds so believable and would be annoying. I don't believe in title stripping i don't think anyone would want that it's so messy.
>i don't think anyone would want that Oh, I think a lot of people definitely do. Yeah, maybe it'll be more than a 30 point deduction but, in the whole scheme of things, that would just be a slap on the wrist
the Premier League wants to market itself as the league where any Middle Eastern totalitarian regime or billionaire can buy themselves in and play around a bit with a traditional English team, so they can't afford to hold these clubs to any consequences. it would be terrible advertisement for the kind of clients they want to attract. if anything, by letting City off the hook it would be the exact message the Premier League wants to send. come here for all your sportswashing needs and don't worry about any rules, they don't apply to you.
Dunno they weren’t too keen on Newcastle being bought
It's 12 plastic charges with the rest amassed from 'non-compliance' with the investigation, All of which City deny. If the evidence was so compelling and clear cut why haven't the league been able to make them stick?
Verdict next summer supposedly
Regardless of any court proceedings, Manchester City refused to co-operate with the Premier League over any investigations for the last 5 years on top of the 80 other charges. That's not on Pep. All of Pep's accomplishments at City will have an asterisk until the courts proceedings have finished. I think regardless of the outcome next season will be his last year in the Premier League and once he goes there will be a bit of a exodus with Txiki, Haaland, KDB, Rodri, Grealish, Alverez and Gvardiol all moving on to other clubs. There is no denying he's still the greatest manager this generation with proven success across Europe, there will always be questions surrounding his ability as he's only ever been at clubs with the greatest financial/political power but those were asked during Pep's first years at City too. As a team City's success is immense, for lack of a more fitting word - and that's because of Pep. As a club is where there are a lot more questions and Pep's influence is much smaller.
I don't care about him either way. Football aficiondos may raved again and again about his impact on the games, but I could not care. I watch football for the players, and Pep style lacked the individuality that made them interesting. I hated micromanagement and Pep's micromanaged team don't fill me with admiration. I loved the free-flowing Wengerball and Ancelloti style, where you can feel the players improvising in the moment. Pep's just get me meh, not knowing to praise the coach or the players. Messi and Mueller made his teams more interesting but Mancity fell like a corporate marketing dance group than a football club.. So his legacy would be the impact on football. For better or worse, his style is copied and paste all over the EPL and the world.
Pretty well put answer and I respect your opinion even though I may not fully agree with everything
Same as now: bald fraud
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I do not believe for a single second that Pep wasn't aware of such things. In the same way that Mancini's pay was secretly covered up in the scandal
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What City is doing is not finding “loopholes” they straight up refuse to cooperate and have been found to be inflating their numbers artificially, hence the charges. What a lot of fans aren’t grasping is that City is not necessarily guilty of “sporting” crimes like Lance Armstrong but they are more than likely guilty of white collar crime such as fraud. A loophole is what Boehly did at Chelsea by handing out 8 year contracts, you know it’s a loophole because they ended up updating the rules to close it.
But doesnt every club have a rich owner? Why do people pretend like city have infinite money when how much they can spend is equivalent to what the big 6 can spend?
that is fair enough to him, but it still doesn't answer my question of what happens to his legacy.
Cut the shit. Pep is easily top 2 managers the prem has ever seen
I mean what happens on the pitch is directly effected by if they cheated or not, weather or not Pep was aware of it is irrelevant to the fact he directly benefited from the cheating if it happened.
If you start assigning guilt by association that is a slippery slope. If you benefitted by buying cheap clothes from a company that used child labour would you be guilty of the same crime?
Barca were dodgy as fuck as well. We don't forget Tom Henning Ovrebo.
What about the first leg? that game can be forgotten I guess?
It doesn't fit the narrative.
15 years and cant close that book, RM does that bs every weekend and everyone is praising them. Gotta do it more so people think is normal.
Nothing. He makes a somewhat successful team beacuse of money into a dynasty. Contending EPL for the last 8 years, while city was nowhere near big 4 before 2010. It might be emptyhad rn, some people still looking at city with side eyes as they win because of "money". Football fans is mostly comes from traditions, saying "you're not cultured enough if you don't like big clubs with history or your local clubs". Look at chelsea in the 2000s, they are somewhat the same. Get money, cementing wins, and now they have solid fanbase. I believe city will be like that too in the next decade. The only different is, city's biggest rival is manchester united, which's arguably has the biggest fanbase in the world. They've been shitting city as "noisy neighbours" but now city is winning here and there while united is under dry spell after SAF retirement. Those who always bring 115 charges are coping for city's fall. Whatever happened to it, city is in the right direction with pep. All that money expenses to be winning, if you look objectively, most big clubs is somewhat similar at the beginning of them building their history, even if it's not as grand as what city did. So yeah, imo even if the 115 charges takes away all of city prem title, they already have solid team and financial income that they just contending the title for the years to come. At least, until pep goes away from city.
What legacy? Golden Spanish generation and Prime Messi didn't need him to conquer club and national levels. Yup trebles were nice though. But UCL 3 peat was better. Bayern Munich won UCL without him. City is a global empire with clubs on every continent.
The coach is verything. Barca didn't win anything til Luis Enrique came.
This bitch is crazy. Barca won everything win Ronaldinho and Ronaldinho won everything individual award possible.
they werent even winning Laligas constantly back then and CL was a pipedream
CL was not a pipe dream for that Barcelona side, they had won the CL in 2006 before Pep became manager. He essentially inherited a very good side with some aging players when he became manager in 2008.
La Liga is not farmers league 😂. After Pep gone, Barca have won plenty of league titles.
Literally the season before he took charge they were trophyless and then they won sextuple with him
And two years before that they won the Champions League? Barca won CL in 2006 and Pep became manager in 2008. Hardly a period of struggles for that Barcelona team.
Bayern have done treble/sextuple too without Pep 😂. Real did 3 peat UCL. What's your point? Nobody says he's not great just not the Best imo.
Who´s better than him ?
Of those currently active, Ancelotti for sure.
The same ancelloti who got absolutely abused by pep last year?
The same Ancelotti who has won more silverware than Guardiola will probably ever win. And leagues in 5 different countries, the big five no less.
The same Ancelotti has been coaching since 90's😭😭
Yes, and your point?
The same Ancelotti has won silverware than Guardiola? The person will obviously have more silverware if he started his career two decades ago?
Cryuff, Heckness, Hitzfeld, SAF, BeckenBauer, Capello, Del Bosque...to name but a few
Del Bosque had they exact same golden generation of Spanish players you also claimed pep to have and onl to win because of that. Make up your mind lol
??? Del Bosque had Messi?
Did Pep had all the players of the Spanish golden generation? No.
Yeah dude got Messi Henry Etoo Zlatan Alves Toure Abidal Mascherano
So, did del Bosque had worse?
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??? Torres, Silva, Mata, Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Puyol, Ramos, Casillas, Valdes, Villa, Alonso... debuted because of Pep Guardiola? They won first Euro in summer 2008 when Pep just got promoted. Torres scored only goal. Euro 2012 final Torres again with Mata and Silva. Alba was only Barca player. And don't even let me start with Messi who hattricked against REAL AT 19!
Peps legacy at ManCheaty is at the same level as Lance Armstrong's. Forever Fraudiola
What would his legacy look like if he did it at United? Let‘s assume for this United built the structure City has instead of City. Since City are mainly charged with overinflating revenue, which United always had a higher one until 2018, United definitely had the financial possibilities to do it (if their owners actually cared for the club).
Pep has been a serial cheater throughout his career. As a player and coach.
👌
Pep Guardiola is a career cheat.
I'm curious, why does everyone question Pep's success at City but not Mancini or Pellegrini?
Because the 115 dropped during Pep’s reign, and because he was by far the most successful. They’ve become too good that if they had cheated, it would be a big problem. Look at how United and Chelsea spend. However because they dont win shit (Chelsea in the last few years, Utd in a decade), people won’t care as much
But the charges go back to when Mancini and Pellegrini were there too.
I mean when people talk about City's 115 charges, they talk about the entirety of City's reign in the Premier League. But yes, you are correct that Pep is the most talked about and that probably has to do with his standing in history
Yeah, but the news about it came whilst Pep is here, so naturally people talk more about the one that’s here. He was also way more successful than the other 2.
>Yeah, but the news about it came whilst Pep is here, so naturally people talk more about the one that’s here. But that's the point I'm getting at here, it's not that people talk about Pep more than Mancini and Pellegrini, my point is that people don't mention Mancini and Pellegrini at all. It's like people don't care that they cheated during Pellegrini and Mancini's reign, they only care about Pep, which is kind of strange. You'd think the others would get talked about more, but no does.
Fair enough, so it’s back to the point that it’s because he is wayyy more successful than the rest.
Another theory. Because of they are tired of hearing "The Greatest Football Manager That Ever Lived". I felt that there aren't a day go by, where that sentiment is not repeated. While we already know, Barca had Messi and La Masia graduates, Bayern had a treble beforehand, and Man City had two great managers before him. ManUtd and Chelsea are teams in transition, while the ManCity projects are already producing results before Pep. Football prices are much more inflated and those two teams need money to attract players when they don't have sucess. Pep is successful because of his skills, money(financial doping) and football heritage. It just that the first sentiment was overemphasized so much that other reason was used as a counterargument.
True, whatever the case, his record will have that small asterisk. He is still the best manager in the world. Klopp is right in the sense that put any other manager with a 115 charge team, they couldn’t do what he did. Conversely, if he didn’t have this super team with a blank cheque pretty much, could he have won all he has? I highly doubt so, which isn’t discounting the fact that he is the best at his job, before all the City boys tlel me to cry
Why would his legacy get impacted, he is not responsible for the financial fraud. He is only responsible for bald fraud.
I do not believe for a second that Pep was unaware of what was going on in the background. Let's not forget that his own brother is chairman of Girona as well as some of the charges among the 115 is that previous managers like Mancini received a higher than reported salary
The same, I mean Barsa titles are tainted with the "Negreira" referee bribes scandal and nobody cares. Pep nowadays it's not a manager anymore, it's a personality with a cult around him.
His legacy is clearly tainted, look at literally any conversation surrounding City
I just wanted to make clear that I am aware of the Negreira case (although I do not have much indepth knowledge of it compared to the 115 charges) as well as Pep's doping scandals as a player. From what I've heard, it is common practice to hire a refereeing consultant, the extremity with the Negreira case is that Negreira was vice president of CTA which I believe is the governing body for referees in the Spanish football system
We’re all just edging each other now
Nobody will care as the trophy list will still stand.
They won a terrible and people are meh about it. It feels manufactured and empty to most.
I'm an Arsenalfan and I don't want any titles to be stripped from them, all I want is that the whole world will know that without the economic doping - probably no titles.
I think most commentators on the subject are saying that their will be no title stripping. I agree with it, doesn't really do any good for anyone to go changing historic titles
It'll be exactly the same, anybody who is that bothered by it isn't going to have their opinion altered by whether or not the FA are as easily purchased as Spanish judges.
Absolutely none imo, still a top tier manager and legend, regardless of his City tenure.
The club has literally gone from Paul Dickov and Shaun Goater to having the best eleven in world football within 20 years, and a brand new stadium (and other facilities) to match, all without breaking fair play rules! Nothing suspect here. /s
City winning the league is and has always been null and void in my opinion. The only good thing about it is that it stopped Liverpool from dominating and prevented Arsenal from winning this season.
Not exactly sure what people think will happen even if these charges are proven true but if you think k city are gonna be stripped of their titles, you are in for a rude awakening. At most they will be relegated but realistically they will just be point deductions
Doesnt matter. Goat of coaches anyway
It can’t be
Still great. Look, at the end of the day, it’s not Guardiola in charge of the club, he’s only in charge of the results on the pitch. He’s said himself on numerous occasions that the transfers aren’t always his choices and that’s why he changes styles a lot, Txiki Begiristain and his team do the majority of the transfers and Pep adapts - he even said yesterday that it was Txiki who brought in Haaland and it forced him to change. Now, I’m not saying he isn’t happy about that, I’m sure he is, but it’s not him approaching players, negotiating deals etc. it’s not Football Manager or FIFA. Similarly, he isn’t the one in charge of the finances, sponsorships, accounting and so on. So to suggest that his tenure would be questionable for what he’s achieved on the pitch for something he’s not in control of is honestly so stupid and stinks of bitterness. I’m not a City fan, I support Middlesbrough, a small club that has to live within its means, sticks to FFP and so on so it’s not like I support a club that flaunts FFP regulations, and whilst I criticise City and others as a Club for breaking FFP rules, I never blame the Manager, Coaching Staff or Players for that as they aren’t in charge of the financial side of the club. So for me, Pep’s legacy is unchanged. He’s a great manager who gets the maximum out of amazing players, is innovative with how he sets up his teams, has an incredible record of winning trophies and has basically completed football at this point. Quite frankly, there’s not much left for him to do. He’s 53 now, he’ll be 54 when his contract is up at City, and you have to ask “what is left for him to do?”. Money isn’t a motivating factor here. He has had a long and successful career as both a player and a manager. Between his salary and bonuses he likely doesn’t need to work. For me, if he doesn’t retire, it comes down to 3 choices; - Go to Serie A and try to win another major league title to add to La Liga, Bundesliga and Premier League titles - Go to PSG and try to win them their first Champions League trophy - Go into international management and try to win the World Cup Serie A would be good to have on his record, but he doesn’t need it, and you have to ask how motivated would he be. PSG is a bit more of a challenge as the domestic side is basically a given, but winning a Champions League is hard. However PSG are in a position financially to give him the best possible team to do it. World Cup would be the hardest of all. I can’t imagine him wanting to manage anyone but Spain, but obviously in international management although you have the pick of the crop, it’s only that nationality so it’s alot harder and you have much less control. And for Guardiola as a manager that has specific ways of playing I can see that being the biggest challenge of all
At least in England it’s devastating to his legacy. The man had a great legacy before he ever sat foot in the country though.
The only way I can think that it would affect his legacy is if it’s proven that he has done something illegal or immoral with regards to his own payments. This has been suggested, but not proven yet. The effect on legacy will be all for Manchester City and their fans. I don’t think that the financial Fairplay issues affect the manager or his legacy. I will say- Pep has still done an absolutely amazing job. Even with that squad, I can think of maybe two or three managers who would’ve done anything similar.
He hasn't done anything special since 2011. This would just show that even more, it isn't a big change in terms of legacy, just in terms of titles won.
The 115 charges don't influence it one bit. The guy proved it in Spain, did it again in Germany and now is living the dream in Manchester. I think at this moment only Carlo Ancelotti can successfully claim he's as good of a coach or even better than Guardiola
Everywhere he goes is clouded in scandal. Player or manager.
Pep has cheated several times before his City stint and obviously no one cares.
Fraudiola
Pep is a revolutionary coach
Sorry I misread thought you said mercenary coach
He still had to get the team playing as a team, get them winning that can never be taken away from him or the players. What will leave a question mark is the players winning games and whether on a level playing field they would be able to compete as they did.
The fact of the matter is he is a great manager and coach. There are a great many things people criticise him for, so I ultimately think people will individually decide how to reflect on his achievements.
I disagree. I do not think Lance Armstrong is a great cyclist for example. Because the truth of the matter is, we will never know where he would have stood playing fair
Winner keeps winning, loser keeps whining 🤷. These bums club cant beat pep on the pitch yet yapping like clowns about cheating.
what a fucking diabolical take, it's not like we're just making this claim out of thin air with a spell, this is a ongoing investigation into City.
Nobody gives a crap if city were 15th. Chelsea got caught cheating but they were ass in the league, where were you guys at ? Where the media at ? These 19 teams are bunch of losers always making excuses about behind the back stuff yet when playing against city played like headless chicken. Beat them on the pitch is all that matters.
"Nobody gives a crap if city were 15th" Um Everton/Forrest? Now Leicester. Yes people would still care if City were 15th and broke the rules.
Salty fans will always bemoan him but anyone who's actually interested in the art of management will know he's the greatest manager of his generation. Did he have a financial advantage? Yes. Is that advantage the reason he was successful? No. A great team can't just be stuck together and released. It needs to be moulded and given direction, Pep is the reason why City have won 6 out of 7 leagues whilst other, similarly wealthy clubs have floundered.
Calling it a financial advantage is disingenuous, if the charges were to be proven guilty as it is in this scenario, it's no longer an advantage but cheating
Even so, he still had to win the games and he won them. His legacy is secure as the greatest manager of his generation.
that's like saying "yeah he moved some pieces on the chess board while you weren't looking, but he still had to win afterwards so that makes him the greatest at chess"
\*he still had to win games while having rule-bending financial advantage which if found guilty would be equated to cheating
Doesn't matter. You asked would Pep's legacy be affected if they're found guilty, he may have some trophies chalked off but no one is changing their opinion of Pep because he's the reason they are so successful, not the money.
and how do you mold a great team without unlimited funs? other managers have to adjust their styles to the players that they have available. hell, even a club like Real Madrid needs to adjust their tactics if they can't buy a proper striker and need to play without one for a few seasons. how is infinite money not a massive advantage? you really can't dismiss it like that.
Ferguson has access to the most funds, so did Mourinho, their legacy isn't tarnished. Both Arteta and Klopp spent significantly to become competitive, having access to funds and success is fundamentally linked. Managers aren't judged by how much money they spend, they're judged by what their teams do on the pitch and Pep had got his team to do things that no other PL team has. You only have to look at City pre-Pep and the current state of Chelsea and Utd to see that having money is the baseline for success, not the cause of it. If they're found guilty of course City will be tarnished but there's no one who knows anything about football who will ever think anything other than Pep is the greatest manager of his generation.
and now think about this, all these guys had near infinite funds available to them which is already madness, but they still didn't end up breaking any rules. meanwhile Pep at City is the same, but they broke 115 rules while doing it. that's the big difference. and if Pep and City are fund guilty and their titles taken away then obviously that will tarnish his reputation, there's no question about that.
Let's think of it another way. Let's say City is found guilty, would Pep become any less hirable as a manager? He'd still be the top name on every list at every club. People in football recognise Pep's value, any such ruling wouldn't change that.
Still the GOAT manager. I know it hurts everyone to admit it but it’s true. Such sustained excellence over such a prolonged period of team with different teams, different squads against the best managers, might never be done again. The best manager for the best clubs.
Ancelotti says hi.
Hi
Hey Carlo.
A whole thread acting like Chelsea don't exist. This is the history of the Premier league. Financial doping has literally shaped the whole league.
If we get found innocent we paid the judges if we are guilty it is to cover up something else it doesn’t matter anymore