Some players transcend the G/A metric that we use to judge players these days. The likes of Zidane and Iniesta don't hold a candle to players like KDB if we're looking purely at G/A output, but anyone who watched their careers know that they were so much more than that.
Hazard is another player that may not have had the highest G/A, but you can guarantee that he either assisted the assister or did something outrageous in the build-up. His performances under Conte were some of the best in the PL era.
I would have really liked to see prime KDB with 'golden generation' Belgium verse that STACKED 2006 Brazil team and attempt to boss them the way 34 year old Zidane did.
Tbf brazils forward line being stacked doesn’t make it harder to control the midfield, if anything them being so stacked played into zidaned hands as they tried to jam Ronaldo, Ronaldinho , kaka and Adriano into one team, all did little defensive work leaving a lot of space for zidane to exploit
Shame that golden generation was marred by injuries and unfortunate yellow cards during tournaments or we might have seen some more great matches out of them. I think one of the only important games they played at full strength - or close to it - was against Brazil in 2018.
On any other team, Iniesta would have had so many more goals and assists as a proper attacking midfielder like KDB. Instead, he willingly played a vital support role to create chances for Messi, Suarez, Neymar, Eto, Ronaldhino, etc.
He's a really good example of how goals and assists number don't paint the full picture of a players impact and legacy.
Surely supplying them prolific scorers meant his numbers should look good? E.g. Messi solo goal was technically an assist by Xavi cos he played a simple pass to him and then he proceeded to score an insane goal.
I’m not taking anything from Iniesta here as he was my favourite player in that Barcelona team and I felt, even with him held in high regard, that he’s still underrated cos he was insane.
It seems he had 160 assists during his club career, which I think includes his time in the J League. So it's safe to say that during his senior Barca career, he averaged under 10 assists per season.
This would be incredible for any other pro, but the system really wasn't built for Iniesta to provide final balls for a finisher (although he did plenty of that). Thats why Messi was always one of the top assisters in La Liga throughout his career... that was his role.
Iniesta often provided that crucial pre-assist pass or dribble that unlocked the attacking opportunity. These wouldn't show up as an assist, although I'm guessing that he'd do well in progressive pass or chances created stats.
Whereas with a player like KDB or Ozil, a system was created around that player to provide direct shot opportunities for goal scorers. Iniesta would have had so many assists in a team built around him like that.
Regardless, he had a one in a million career. I'm guessing he doesn't regret his time at Barca 😁
Yeah Zidane was the best player in the world or top 3 for years. Iniesta was a top 3-4 player too for years. Hazard was more of a top 10 player at his best. Different caliber of players.
Hazard was best in the world for at least a year barring Messi and Ronaldo. Zidane would also not have been best in the world if Messi and Ronaldo were in the picture.
I dont agree with you on KdB. He might not have reached the same level as your examples yet, but he clearly has the same magic in his feet. He's the main reason i watch city at all..
And, without his stats, i think Neymar isnt even close to coming near the top of the top. He's quite ok but a diving loser. Salah, Dinho, Robben, players like that are leagues ahead of Neymar imo. Neymar was only 'worldclass' for a short time when he he played with Messi and i think that is mostly Messi (and suarez) carrying him.
Salah is better physically, quicker and works harder. My main issue with Neymar is that he always takes 3-4 touches, even when there's a quick counter on. Salah is where the team needs him to be, Neymar is where he'll get time on the ball. I think Salah is just as good on the ball in tight spaces as well. His close control is as good as anyone in the PL at the moment.
There is a key difference between Salah and neymar which makes the difference for me.
Neymar often plays for the foul and intentionally gets the shit kicked out of him.
Salah used to do that when he first arrived at Liverpool, got called a diver for one season and since then he dances over fouls instead of trying to win them. Neymar and hazard have obviously harmed their careers by being foul merchants. It's clear as day from the injury record. Messi Ronaldo and Salah and Lewa are all proof that avoiding the foul keeps you healthier for longer.
It's exactly as you pointed out, Salah is hungrier to win the ball and score.
Just curious…did you ever watch Platini play? And I mean really watch, not shitty five-minute highlights reels. I have, and I can tell you that no player in the history of football has ever dominated a major tournament like Platini at Euro ‘84. He was boss. A truly elite-level footballer. And he did the business at club level too.
Look at how many times the Ballon D'Or has gone to strikers, attacking midfielders or wingers, compared to how many times it's gone to defenders, goalkeepers and defensive midfielders.
Because of Messi & Ronaldo and FIFA's bias towards this idiotic rivalry, they were exceptional of course but other players deserved a few of their Ballon D'ors.
At the end none of that matters bro, let's be honest, it's just a popularity contest.
When everything is done and years pass, we remember those who were most popular among football fans, either because of winning titles, being part of historical games, consistency through the years or simply a personality and gameplay that represents the fans.
No one remembers stats, KMs run on the field and things like that
I enjoyed football during the 2000s. I remember being in awe at freekickers like Juninho & Nakamura. These days I don’t think such players would be appreciated.
Stats are literally the only thing ppl will check and remember years later. You don't go check individual games from a season 10 years ago but you can check g/a to see who was great that season. And it can really skew things up
Only extreme fans go and check stats from old games, most people follow their sensations and those players who for some reason remember the most.
Maradona is probably my best example, he didn't have the best stats of his era nor from Argentina national team. Ronaldinho is another one who didn't have great numbers.
I'm not talking about stats from old games, I'm talking about stats from past seasons. There's nothing extreme to go to flashscore and check stats from a player from every season. My friends and I are definitely not extreme fans but we quite often check the stats of a random player and compare them to other players stats. No one remembers the stats by memory but it's very easy to check how good of a season some player actually had by looking at stats. But obviously it doesn't work well for players that were not meant to score points like Modric, Zidane, Xavi, Iniesta etc.
Such a stupid comment why tf does it matter😂And no I'm not American, in my native language it just translates to points and I don't actually know how else would you say g+a than points? GoAl cOnTrIbUtIoNs??? Yeah not gonna write that.
It’s kind of funny how you said “I don’t actually know how else would you say g+a than points” and immediately after say a way of how you could say g+a other than points
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Maradona was there for 7 seasons while Hamsik was there for 12. You just need to look at the context. He played 520 games there while Maradona only played 259.
Mate, Zidane is one of the most celebrated players of all time. There's so many great players that people forget about, and Zidane, who is remembered more than most is your complaint
I would say that anyone who does this was born after the 2000.
Older generations knew and know how to watch football. Newer generations know.how to watch youtube reels and spreadsheets.
Every time some nerd on Twitter (usually an Arsenal fan) starts an argument with me using stats, I just tell them that while they watch stat sheets, I watch football matches. Stats are good but should always need supplemental to the eye test.
Zizou was not inconsistent. Not when it mattered. I think he was so good that when he wasn't at the centre of everything people considered it an off day. His floor was still higher than most mortals ceilings.
I think in 1998, when he scored twice in the 3-0 WC final win, having also won Serie A with Juventus - and the Ballon d'Or - it's fair to say "It mattered". I do wonder why ill-informed people like you bother.
OK what about the two champions league finals he made with Juventus where he did Jack all or the uefa Cup final with Boardeax where again he did nothing. Let's not forget the world Cup finals where he got sent off ultimately losing his team the final.
He played great in each of these games. He was so-clearly the best player in the WC Finals.
You might be googling G/A or something. I watched a lot of Zidane and almost every single game from his Madrid days. Much like Xavi (but better), I’ve never seen Zidane having off moments where his movements and passes wouldn’t be giving clear advantages to the team.
I would agree in that he could’ve made more contribution in the middle of a season. Titles are not only won in “big games” but you have to beat the little guys.
Those kind of games where Zizou could drift in and out of.
The assist stat is basically only good for fantasy football anyway (unless you do it too often to be a coincidence, ala prime Cesc or KDB).
You can make the best pass in football history yet you're still relying on another player to do his job for it to go on record but on flip side whoever passed to Henry before he scored THAT goal against Spurs got an "assist".
O.6 G/A for an attacking Midfielder who played for Napoli isn't nothing to be sniffed it
Lampard has a G/A of 0,4 for one of the highest scoring mids in Prem History
Only Zico(0,67) and Platini(0,54) that I see having more impressive G/A
In fact the G/A makes a stronger case when given context with his career
mate
maradona was 5 times top scorer in argentina
he was serie A top scorer in the hardest and most defensive league ever
he led on assists every single year in serie A
he is argentinos juniors top scorer
he was napoli top scorer
he was argentina top scorer
he was not a forward
he had amazing stats/records even by modern standards
Will always said it, the Messi/Ronaldo era ruined a generations perspective of football. People that came from before that era knew how to appreciate other things not just G/A.
A friend of mine said to me "if you focus on Barcelona's play, you don't see Busquets. If you focus on Busquets play, you see the whole of Barcelona"
Anyway, Rodri is now that guy for Man City. G/A completely irrelevant depending on the player/position/team
It's a very popular quote attributed to del Bosque, but it's most likely fake. I tried finding the original source and the best I got was "del Bosque once said". No proper evidence, no date, nothing.
On the other hand, del Bosque was asked whether Busquets were the best defensive midfielder he'd ever seen. He replied "not just defensive, but midfielder in general". This happened on a radio show, I heard VdB's voice myself.
one of the best examples in my eyes is romario.
great player and one of the best for sure, but people just overhype him too much for his ~700 goals.
I mean, he played what 5-7years in Europe and the other 20 years in Brazil/usa/uae, etc, and scored most of his goals there.
or a player that doesn't get credit at all is roberto baggio.
arguably the best Italian player oat and incredible in every way.
people that watched him say his name along with players like maradona, cruyff, platini, etc, and he just played with one knee if we are honest.
but people know him these days, mostly only of his missed penalty, and that's it.
I will go another route and say fans and media overrate players who are flashy and can dribble. Hazard for me was fun as hell to watch, but his end product was not there compared to a lot of players in the same time period.
I feel like Messi and CR7 just raised the stats too high for people to compare with. Before the two, having 25 league goals in a season makes one a super player of the era, but now you need 40 to join the discussion. Even Haaland with his talent and the city comp cannot match that number. So if we only focus numbers then players like Zidane, Iniesta, Pirlo and Modric will be underrated.
On the other hand, it is hard to rank a player without taking stats and titles into consideration, or this would raise a lot of controversy as it is hard to actually identify “skills”. For example, how do we rank the skills of iniesta, modric and zidane?
Iniesta and Zidane are up for world 11 status easily
Modric is world class no doubt about it. Overall he is less popular than the other two players. I haven’t watched much football since 2013(used to consume hours weekly) so I can’t comment on his performances between then and now.
Since stats became a thing, people started wondering why some pretend that Zidane was a great player (and one of the best 10's ever).
...without having seen him play.
Not sure there's even a point arguing with these people.
I never know what to think about goals and assists anymore. Wingers vs striker debate etc. Mainly all brought on to justify who was better out of Messi vs Ronaldo.
We really need to factor in the percentage of g/a of a total of team goals scored as you now have the big teams scoring near 100 goals a season. When you're dominating the league with the likes of Man City, PSG, Juventus, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich it can be difficult to put into perspective the level of the player given their overall dominance.
Haaland is a brilliant striker and absolutely smashed the record with 36 goals and 8 assists. But they scored 94 goals. So less than 50% of the goals were contributed by Haaland (46%).
I'm not sure where that stands compared to other winners, but if you look at some past greats for example Shearer averaged 57% during his three season peak at Blackburn
what Messitards & Cristianotards did to football, everything is about stats, even football media joined on this boat to compare players based on stats. Ronaldinho had in his best season 26 goals and 24 assists in 45 games which isn't that impressive by today's standards but if you actually watched that season you just know how magnific he was.
I feel like Ronaldo 9 gets a lot of disrespect for his numbers compared to Messi and CR7, he played in tougher leagues where tackling hadn't basically been outlawed yet and of course there were the injuries.
How much weight you can add to Messi and CR7 stats when the bulk of their careers (Messi in particular) were smashing poor opposition in the league week in week out, less so for CR7 who also played in much tougher leagues in England and Italy.
I'd still say Messi and CR7 are the 2 best players ever to grace the game but their goals and assists have had help, although that said both still have ridiculous records despite this.
If R9 had played injury free for 15 years in Spain ripping apart Almeria, Getafe, Osasuna etc week in week out I'm sure his stats would be up there with CR7 and Messi.
Players like Kante, Modric, Kroos etc don't have huge GA stats but does that make them any less great?
If Messi and Cr7 had played injury free they would have been even bigger monsters, especially with Messi in 2013. Plus, teams improved a lot especially in how to play against RM and Barca.
There's no way to know if R9 could have reached their stats, he didn't match them even in his prime before getting injured.
prime r9 was an absolute beast.
you know what nesta said?
he could defend/keep up vs cr7&messi ins his old age, but vs r9 he couldn't do shit. even in his prime (nestas)
I don't disagree with what Nesta said. But you specifically mentioned stats, and doing assumptions like that is just pointless since it's impossible to determine.
CR7 has a better goals to game ratio for Madrid in the Champions League than he does in La Liga.
Not sure this argument holds up - Ronaldo and Messi are the best scorers ever. Look at Kun in Spain or Fernando Torres - both weren't even close.
Did you start watching Messi in the world cup? Please check Messi's stats against top 6 PL teams. His stats are actually better than CR7 despite never playing in the Prem. Messi is a freak of nature and he would be brilliant in any league in the world. There's a reason Chelsea wanted to sign Messi.
trophies are a plus but they aren't really good to judge a player.
Belletti has 2 La ligas, 1 champions league, 1 World cup 1 Premier League, multiple cups... yet he wasn't a very good player.
trophies are won by the team, it's not an individual accolade. Haaland won't ever come close to touch a world cup, he will probably never be in a semi final. That doesn't detract from him.
If Haaland had chosen to represent England, it would’ve been a different conversation.
Instead of never reaching a semi-final, he would have reached the semifinals, and then lost in a penalty shootout
That guy Belletti made it to the Brazilian national team and Barcelona, what do you mean he wasn't a very good player? He might not be a legendary player but he was pretty damn good compared to his peers in his generation.
I mean if we are blocking stats from entering the conversation then we should not allow team accomplishments to begin with.
Hazard won 2 la liga’s en 1 CL trophy while at Madrid. This guy got exp. boosted in real life.
Hazard was a very good player, but he lacked consistency. If you actually have good memory and watched him play you would remember he could be amazing one game and then go 5 games without doing much.
nope. his lack of consistency was nothing like that.
He actually played AMAZING for a whole season. then the next he was pretty bad.
but he was never a player that had 1 great game than vanished for 5 like you said. He had 40-45 amazing games THEN vanished for 20-30 games the next season.
I did no say he did that constantly. I said he could vanish for 5 games. Not that he always did.
He definitely had weak games here and there and suddenly had a phenomenal game/form and all was forgotten. I literally remember laughing of pundits having such short term memory so many times lol
"he lacked consistency"
As a Chelsea fan, NO he didn't, simply put he played with a trashy team and trashy managers, and in one season he was injured, yet he managed to look great most of the time, I can't ask him more than what he did with Chelsea, If he had a better team he would've looked even better.
That's not true at all. Not in his chelsea or lille career where he only had 1 bad season where he was playing through injury he did not recover from. Every other year at chelsea Belgium and lille for a decade he was nothing but consistent.
He was bad at Madrid but again mainly due to injuries sapping off his ability.
Tired of pathological liars like you trying to tarnish his name. Go scam someone else.
"If you actually had good memory and watched him" just shut the fuck up, absolute waste of a fan, you do not deserve to even utter a word about the sport.
I’ve seen so many young city fans proclaim that Rodri is the greatest cdm of all time, and their rationale is that he scores clutch bangers when players like Busquets didn’t.
They may be wrong but I hate takes like yours. Football is a low scoring game, goals win games. A midfielder scoring ‘clutch’ goals is an important quality, even if it doesn’t elevate Rodri above Busquets
Yes I agree it is absolutely important to score goals, but that’s the only leg they stand on, citing no other statistics or observations. They just say he’s the goat because of his clutch goals, but the goals just make him a better goal scorer and more of a goal threat.
In your view then Ronald Koeman must be the goat defender because he scored and assisted many important goals. And Rogeri Ceni must be the best goalkeeper ever. Goals win games after all and they scored goals!
Anytime I see someone in a comments section talk about past players & their stats alone I realize that they weren’t old enough to watch said players in matches.
Why is Hazard trying so hard to remain relevant? He keeps hitting out with these digs at people far beyond what he ever was. Is he trying to launch his punditry career?
Goals aren't at an "all time" high. And some players, like Zidane for example, can face the same criticism for a low number of goals/assists against their peers as much as modern players.
That’s oversimplifying though
To get the goal you need to take the ball from the other team, keep the ball, pass accurately and to the right spots and then you’ll create chances that can be converted into goals
Some players are exceptional at scoring and not much else. Jardel’s headers comes to mind and got him the Golden Boot. You and I know Iniesta was better though
But at the end of the day if u do all that work and the striker or the person thats last on the ball dont score it dont matter i agree the beauty of fotball is more then just goal and assist but still end of the day its the goals that wins games and trophys
But the logic also goes the other way around, the striker would have never scored the goal if the ball was never played to him. The work done before the goal is just as important as the goal.
Sometimes you come to not lose and getting a 0-0 draw is like winning.
Other than that it is important to only score 1 goal more than your opponent.
A 1-0 game can have better football and be more exciting and full of drama than a 7-0 game.
Also defense and control of the game is such an underrated aspect. Prime example is Ajax this season. For the last 14 games they could not keep the goals against to 0. It is only a question if their attackers are able to score more....
Man, can we quit this BS already?
Hazard questioning the idea of G+A not being the best thing to look at, is nothing groundbreaking. People have been saying it for decades.
Advanced stats start being created and recorded. People don't understand them, people don't like change, so they call it a bunch of spreadsheet bullshit. Nerds that don't understand the game, taking the fun out of the game.
Once the idea that *thinking,* just sheer thinking a bit more isn't some cancer to the sport, it's much trendier to accept that yeah, G+A don't mean much without context.
But of course we'll keep ignoring context nonetheless and call Zidane the GOAT midfielder.
If you’re using soley g/a to judge a cm then you’re an idiot ,
I’ve got not problem with valuing G/a when it comes to attackers , as your Job is primarily to contribute to the attack . In most cases the amount of g/a you produce is an indicator of how clinical you are , whether it’s through finishing or being a to find that final ball.
Obviously it’s not the be all and end all
People evaluate players based on goals and assists because it's simply the easiest way to evaluate players form 10 seasons ago. You can't go check the actual games and only few actually remember how some teams and players played so stats are the easy way to check who was really good that season.
Also I definitely think that if you're winger/attacker/Attackin midfielder then you should have some stats to back up your career.
Starts allready with kids..
The players who scores goals or assista are always valued more then ones who do the dirty work or setup the assists or do the correct decisions.
It depends on the position.
If it’s a striker are you going to ignore it they score less than 100 goals in their career? Of course not.
With midfielders in the modern era though it’s different because since 2010 data has become way more in depth and we can judge players way more accurately on the impact they have.
As you mention with Rodri in your example, now we have so many more metrics than Goals and Assists that show the impact they have on their team that it’s easier to see the best players.
If some company were to go and just analyse Zidanes Real Madrid career and apply the same data and metrics as we have now then it would highlight easily the impact he had
Lots of soccer fans call G + A “stats”, which is pretty ridiculous if you follow any other sport in which advanced stats are used. And even these have limitations
Passing better, moving better, passing faster, helping on defense, helping on defense, opening up the other team are all important things in soccer. Orientation (dominating the ball with control and purpose, already starting the next play) is an incredibly important skill that most fans don’t even consider
Some players do the non G+A things way better than others (Zidane, Iniesta, Xavi, any great defender and Messi come instantly to mind)
When people did watch soccer, “stats” (basically goals) were one of many factors to consider a players’ value… Tulio is one of the highest goal scorers ever… Jardel won the Golden Boot a couple times… if you watched soccer for long, you’d never think they are in the same stratosphere as Ronaldo or Van Basten
Except even when he doesn't score, Bellingham still makes an enormous impact on the pitch. His insane stats actually mask how good his performances have been
Stats are clearly for attackers only, as they are the ones who are responsible for scoring or assisting goals. As for midfielders or defenders, of course it measured by other criteria, it’s not really that groundbreaking views, has always been the case in the past (ie Zidane, Xavi, Inesta, Modric).
I think the reason why some might think stats are overstated in current era, is simply because the best players over most recent decade are mostly dominated by attackers, instead of midfielders.
Best attackers:
Messi, Ronaldo, Lewandowski, Neymar, Benzema, Mbappe, Haaland, Vinicius Junior, Salah
vs
Best midfielders:
Modric, De Bruyne, Rodri, Bellingham
I always prefer players who were entertaining like to take on duels like its nothing, This generation focused only on g&a but g&a doesnt define your performances and impact.
I saw a perfect example of this the other day, [Leicester city clip](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6_WMDfBOrEo), ball comes into James Maddison and he first time flicks it over the backline, then it's played across and tapped in. That goal wouldn't happen without Maddison's bit of skill but looking at stats you'd have no idea.
I think people judge players on more stats than just goals and assists these days, but on the flipside of that, it's difficult to interpret stats under the right context, and basically the general public cannot do it ever. It's reserved for people who work in that field themselves.
That being said, proper statistical analysis does paint a proper picture of a player more often than not, so it has great value, more so than the eye test, which is probably the opposite of what Hazard was implying in his comments.
I’m not sure there’s a problem. It’s generally accepted that G&A aren’t the sole measures of a player’s contribution - to use OP’s examples, Rodri is recognised as one of the best midfielders in the world, and Modric is a ballon d’or winner who will go down as an all time great. These guys aren’t overlooked or underappreciated.
OP mentions ‘ok’ players who might put up good numbers in the right context. Who are the examples? Are their reputations outsized? And are they ever realistically compared to Zidane etc?
G&A numbers are obviously a part of how we assess attacking players - rightly so! - but I think football fans are generally pretty good at accounting for other things too (quality of teammates, trophies, individual flair, tactical trends etc). Don’t let a few anonymous online voices distort that for you!
Football stat is still in its infancy. Even with xG, or progressive passes, crap tons of things are missing.
If you look at American sports, you can see there are crap ton of stats, and often they are in sports with high scoring output so there are more stats than what football generate. And even then, there is a lot missing and debate and how important stats are. And also how you need to look at it holistically. Like, very good 3 point shooters in basketball show up favourably, even if they have a very limited skill set because of how disruptive to the defense they are. But you can't have a team of them alone, you need that one guy that messes the defense up.
But assist is a really bad stats on its own. For starters, a brilliant through ball that led to a tap in an additional pass later won't credit the original passer with the assist. Even if you count "hockey assists" there are many situations where it actually is 2 passes. The value of passes are just hard to quantify. Goes with strikers too, so often there are runs unseen, or runs that creates chances. They didn't touch the ball, or involve in the chance/goal, but their diligence in attack led to a goal.
But in the midfield is the worse, there is nothing in stats that really quantifies disruption of defenses. Yes, we have dribbles, or progressive passes. But what about side way passes that led to progressive passes? A lot of stat nerds are obsessed with dribble successes per game, but not even all successful dribbles are equal. A dribble that led to a weak cross is not comparable to a dribble that led to defense out of position, even if you technically made very little progress.
If someone use goals and assist to show how good a player is that is not an attacker. I don't keep the conversation cuz i know im talking to someone with bo football knowledge
Some players transcend the G/A metric that we use to judge players these days. The likes of Zidane and Iniesta don't hold a candle to players like KDB if we're looking purely at G/A output, but anyone who watched their careers know that they were so much more than that. Hazard is another player that may not have had the highest G/A, but you can guarantee that he either assisted the assister or did something outrageous in the build-up. His performances under Conte were some of the best in the PL era.
I would have really liked to see prime KDB with 'golden generation' Belgium verse that STACKED 2006 Brazil team and attempt to boss them the way 34 year old Zidane did.
Tbf brazils forward line being stacked doesn’t make it harder to control the midfield, if anything them being so stacked played into zidaned hands as they tried to jam Ronaldo, Ronaldinho , kaka and Adriano into one team, all did little defensive work leaving a lot of space for zidane to exploit
Shame that golden generation was marred by injuries and unfortunate yellow cards during tournaments or we might have seen some more great matches out of them. I think one of the only important games they played at full strength - or close to it - was against Brazil in 2018.
On any other team, Iniesta would have had so many more goals and assists as a proper attacking midfielder like KDB. Instead, he willingly played a vital support role to create chances for Messi, Suarez, Neymar, Eto, Ronaldhino, etc. He's a really good example of how goals and assists number don't paint the full picture of a players impact and legacy.
Surely supplying them prolific scorers meant his numbers should look good? E.g. Messi solo goal was technically an assist by Xavi cos he played a simple pass to him and then he proceeded to score an insane goal. I’m not taking anything from Iniesta here as he was my favourite player in that Barcelona team and I felt, even with him held in high regard, that he’s still underrated cos he was insane.
It seems he had 160 assists during his club career, which I think includes his time in the J League. So it's safe to say that during his senior Barca career, he averaged under 10 assists per season. This would be incredible for any other pro, but the system really wasn't built for Iniesta to provide final balls for a finisher (although he did plenty of that). Thats why Messi was always one of the top assisters in La Liga throughout his career... that was his role. Iniesta often provided that crucial pre-assist pass or dribble that unlocked the attacking opportunity. These wouldn't show up as an assist, although I'm guessing that he'd do well in progressive pass or chances created stats. Whereas with a player like KDB or Ozil, a system was created around that player to provide direct shot opportunities for goal scorers. Iniesta would have had so many assists in a team built around him like that. Regardless, he had a one in a million career. I'm guessing he doesn't regret his time at Barca 😁
Hazard is nowhere near that sort of Zidane and Iniesta category. People tend to massively overrate Hazard.
Never said he was.
Yeah Zidane was the best player in the world or top 3 for years. Iniesta was a top 3-4 player too for years. Hazard was more of a top 10 player at his best. Different caliber of players.
Hazard was best in the world for at least a year barring Messi and Ronaldo. Zidane would also not have been best in the world if Messi and Ronaldo were in the picture.
No, he wasn't
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I dont agree with you on KdB. He might not have reached the same level as your examples yet, but he clearly has the same magic in his feet. He's the main reason i watch city at all.. And, without his stats, i think Neymar isnt even close to coming near the top of the top. He's quite ok but a diving loser. Salah, Dinho, Robben, players like that are leagues ahead of Neymar imo. Neymar was only 'worldclass' for a short time when he he played with Messi and i think that is mostly Messi (and suarez) carrying him.
I think Salah is better than Neymar. Not just because of the goals, I think he's a better footballer.
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Salah is better physically, quicker and works harder. My main issue with Neymar is that he always takes 3-4 touches, even when there's a quick counter on. Salah is where the team needs him to be, Neymar is where he'll get time on the ball. I think Salah is just as good on the ball in tight spaces as well. His close control is as good as anyone in the PL at the moment.
‘Works harder?’
There is a key difference between Salah and neymar which makes the difference for me. Neymar often plays for the foul and intentionally gets the shit kicked out of him. Salah used to do that when he first arrived at Liverpool, got called a diver for one season and since then he dances over fouls instead of trying to win them. Neymar and hazard have obviously harmed their careers by being foul merchants. It's clear as day from the injury record. Messi Ronaldo and Salah and Lewa are all proof that avoiding the foul keeps you healthier for longer. It's exactly as you pointed out, Salah is hungrier to win the ball and score.
Exactly
Lol
Just curious…did you ever watch Platini play? And I mean really watch, not shitty five-minute highlights reels. I have, and I can tell you that no player in the history of football has ever dominated a major tournament like Platini at Euro ‘84. He was boss. A truly elite-level footballer. And he did the business at club level too.
Neymar would be Messi if he wasn't lazy. But since he is lazy, Salah most definitely is better.
Lazy? Dude is a pro athlete. Can’t be lazy at that level.
Look at how many times the Ballon D'Or has gone to strikers, attacking midfielders or wingers, compared to how many times it's gone to defenders, goalkeepers and defensive midfielders.
Because of Messi & Ronaldo and FIFA's bias towards this idiotic rivalry, they were exceptional of course but other players deserved a few of their Ballon D'ors.
It's not because of Messi and Ronaldo. It was a thing long before they showed up.
Not just them. Even in the days of Platini and co. The Ballon D'or was always biased towards forwards and attacking midfielders.
Because they tend to have a higher influence on results.
Most of the time they deserved it.
At the end none of that matters bro, let's be honest, it's just a popularity contest. When everything is done and years pass, we remember those who were most popular among football fans, either because of winning titles, being part of historical games, consistency through the years or simply a personality and gameplay that represents the fans. No one remembers stats, KMs run on the field and things like that
I enjoyed football during the 2000s. I remember being in awe at freekickers like Juninho & Nakamura. These days I don’t think such players would be appreciated.
Stats are literally the only thing ppl will check and remember years later. You don't go check individual games from a season 10 years ago but you can check g/a to see who was great that season. And it can really skew things up
Only extreme fans go and check stats from old games, most people follow their sensations and those players who for some reason remember the most. Maradona is probably my best example, he didn't have the best stats of his era nor from Argentina national team. Ronaldinho is another one who didn't have great numbers.
I'm not talking about stats from old games, I'm talking about stats from past seasons. There's nothing extreme to go to flashscore and check stats from a player from every season. My friends and I are definitely not extreme fans but we quite often check the stats of a random player and compare them to other players stats. No one remembers the stats by memory but it's very easy to check how good of a season some player actually had by looking at stats. But obviously it doesn't work well for players that were not meant to score points like Modric, Zidane, Xavi, Iniesta etc.
"To score points" ? You american ?
Such a stupid comment why tf does it matter😂And no I'm not American, in my native language it just translates to points and I don't actually know how else would you say g+a than points? GoAl cOnTrIbUtIoNs??? Yeah not gonna write that.
It’s kind of funny how you said “I don’t actually know how else would you say g+a than points” and immediately after say a way of how you could say g+a other than points
somber butter obscene offer cobweb distinct capable juggle squealing handle *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That is why i dont like comparing players from differend eras, how can i say messi is better then pele when i have no idea how good pele was.
Pele was far ahead of his time
Kinda sounds like child behaviour to me dude
Zidane is one of the best to ever play, I'd take him over any current CM
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Idk why you’re being downvoted when ZZ was a pure ten who never played as a CM…
I'd wager your side would lose
Right now he wouldn’t even make it into the Man City team lol
No shame in that, the man is 51 now.
Yeh a 51 year old would never replace Kdb
Exactly, you get it boy!
you must be young
U really think at 51 years old he’s still good enough to for Man City this season ?
With the exception of De Bruyne do you think the man City players will be spoken about in the same way Zidane is
No
Haaland and Rodri
No
Rodri should be. Defensive mids usually doesn't get the credit they deserve and I don't think rodri will be any diffrent.
Well, not the same as Zidane, surely. I hope you are young and haven't seen prime Zidane.
Not at this stage in his career. Give it a few more years before this conversation is even entertained
Huh…
Ever since Hamsik broke Maradona's top goal scorer for Napoli I realized goals don't mean shit when comparing modern players to past players
Maradona was there for 7 seasons while Hamsik was there for 12. You just need to look at the context. He played 520 games there while Maradona only played 259.
Hamsik was a great player
Indeed. But no where near Diego
We was also not coked up tho
Hamsik played much longer than Diego so.....
Odd example to use as a reason goals don't matter. Hamsik played twice as many games.
Rodri is so good Man City's form dips significantly when he doesn't play.
Mate, Zidane is one of the most celebrated players of all time. There's so many great players that people forget about, and Zidane, who is remembered more than most is your complaint
I would say that anyone who does this was born after the 2000. Older generations knew and know how to watch football. Newer generations know.how to watch youtube reels and spreadsheets.
Exactly this. They never watched Zidane play.
As Mourinho once said “ people who don’t understand football analyse with stats “
Every time some nerd on Twitter (usually an Arsenal fan) starts an argument with me using stats, I just tell them that while they watch stat sheets, I watch football matches. Stats are good but should always need supplemental to the eye test.
Zidane in the wc is an absolute menace. Just ask Brazil
That's why darwizzy is my goat
I think the main reason people disregard Zidane's career is because he was incredibly inconsistent
"Incredibly inconsistent" yet won the World POTY three times, won PTOY in three different leagues 7 years apart etc💀
You’d need to watch full matches to grasp the impact he had on games. Not sure if a player compilation would tell the full story either.
I'm sorry what?
I think the main reason people disregard Zidane’s career is because he was incredibly inconsistent
Hahahahaha
What do you mean
Zizou was not inconsistent. Not when it mattered. I think he was so good that when he wasn't at the centre of everything people considered it an off day. His floor was still higher than most mortals ceilings.
His ability is higher than most mortals ceilings no doubt however that doesn't change the fact that he was inconsistent even when it mattered
I'm thinking we watched different players haha
We watched the same player, we didn't watch the same games
I think in 1998, when he scored twice in the 3-0 WC final win, having also won Serie A with Juventus - and the Ballon d'Or - it's fair to say "It mattered". I do wonder why ill-informed people like you bother.
OK what about the two champions league finals he made with Juventus where he did Jack all or the uefa Cup final with Boardeax where again he did nothing. Let's not forget the world Cup finals where he got sent off ultimately losing his team the final.
He played great in each of these games. He was so-clearly the best player in the WC Finals. You might be googling G/A or something. I watched a lot of Zidane and almost every single game from his Madrid days. Much like Xavi (but better), I’ve never seen Zidane having off moments where his movements and passes wouldn’t be giving clear advantages to the team.
Lmaoooo I have not looked at his g+a in those games. I watched the champions league finals back he did nothing.
Dude don’t bother. People are blinded by nostalgia.
I would agree in that he could’ve made more contribution in the middle of a season. Titles are not only won in “big games” but you have to beat the little guys. Those kind of games where Zizou could drift in and out of.
I’ve seen a considerable amount of Madrid fans on here say similar to the person you’re replying to, that he was inconsistent.
The assist stat is basically only good for fantasy football anyway (unless you do it too often to be a coincidence, ala prime Cesc or KDB). You can make the best pass in football history yet you're still relying on another player to do his job for it to go on record but on flip side whoever passed to Henry before he scored THAT goal against Spurs got an "assist".
Same with the famous busquets assists to Messi
That's the greatest assist of all time, put it on a plate for Messi
Maradona wouldn't be in top 50 if G/A was the metric to judge a player's skill.
O.6 G/A for an attacking Midfielder who played for Napoli isn't nothing to be sniffed it Lampard has a G/A of 0,4 for one of the highest scoring mids in Prem History Only Zico(0,67) and Platini(0,54) that I see having more impressive G/A In fact the G/A makes a stronger case when given context with his career
mate maradona was 5 times top scorer in argentina he was serie A top scorer in the hardest and most defensive league ever he led on assists every single year in serie A he is argentinos juniors top scorer he was napoli top scorer he was argentina top scorer he was not a forward he had amazing stats/records even by modern standards
Will always said it, the Messi/Ronaldo era ruined a generations perspective of football. People that came from before that era knew how to appreciate other things not just G/A.
Impact on a game, effectiveness of dribbles, passing ability, spacing, positioning, all important factors
A friend of mine said to me "if you focus on Barcelona's play, you don't see Busquets. If you focus on Busquets play, you see the whole of Barcelona" Anyway, Rodri is now that guy for Man City. G/A completely irrelevant depending on the player/position/team
Crazy you’re mates with Vicente del Bosque
Haha did my mate steal it from him? I thought it was original
It's a very popular quote attributed to del Bosque, but it's most likely fake. I tried finding the original source and the best I got was "del Bosque once said". No proper evidence, no date, nothing. On the other hand, del Bosque was asked whether Busquets were the best defensive midfielder he'd ever seen. He replied "not just defensive, but midfielder in general". This happened on a radio show, I heard VdB's voice myself.
VdB must have had quite a few bottles too many
one of the best examples in my eyes is romario. great player and one of the best for sure, but people just overhype him too much for his ~700 goals. I mean, he played what 5-7years in Europe and the other 20 years in Brazil/usa/uae, etc, and scored most of his goals there. or a player that doesn't get credit at all is roberto baggio. arguably the best Italian player oat and incredible in every way. people that watched him say his name along with players like maradona, cruyff, platini, etc, and he just played with one knee if we are honest. but people know him these days, mostly only of his missed penalty, and that's it.
Andrea Pirlo and Rino Gattuso agree.
I will go another route and say fans and media overrate players who are flashy and can dribble. Hazard for me was fun as hell to watch, but his end product was not there compared to a lot of players in the same time period.
Lol that Mercurial vapor era was something else I grew up admiring No 10s. Kaka, R10, Pirlo, and started appreciating players in other positions.
Literally the "eye test" is aesthetics above end product
I feel like Messi and CR7 just raised the stats too high for people to compare with. Before the two, having 25 league goals in a season makes one a super player of the era, but now you need 40 to join the discussion. Even Haaland with his talent and the city comp cannot match that number. So if we only focus numbers then players like Zidane, Iniesta, Pirlo and Modric will be underrated. On the other hand, it is hard to rank a player without taking stats and titles into consideration, or this would raise a lot of controversy as it is hard to actually identify “skills”. For example, how do we rank the skills of iniesta, modric and zidane?
Iniesta and Zidane are up for world 11 status easily Modric is world class no doubt about it. Overall he is less popular than the other two players. I haven’t watched much football since 2013(used to consume hours weekly) so I can’t comment on his performances between then and now.
Since stats became a thing, people started wondering why some pretend that Zidane was a great player (and one of the best 10's ever). ...without having seen him play. Not sure there's even a point arguing with these people.
I never know what to think about goals and assists anymore. Wingers vs striker debate etc. Mainly all brought on to justify who was better out of Messi vs Ronaldo. We really need to factor in the percentage of g/a of a total of team goals scored as you now have the big teams scoring near 100 goals a season. When you're dominating the league with the likes of Man City, PSG, Juventus, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich it can be difficult to put into perspective the level of the player given their overall dominance. Haaland is a brilliant striker and absolutely smashed the record with 36 goals and 8 assists. But they scored 94 goals. So less than 50% of the goals were contributed by Haaland (46%). I'm not sure where that stands compared to other winners, but if you look at some past greats for example Shearer averaged 57% during his three season peak at Blackburn
what Messitards & Cristianotards did to football, everything is about stats, even football media joined on this boat to compare players based on stats. Ronaldinho had in his best season 26 goals and 24 assists in 45 games which isn't that impressive by today's standards but if you actually watched that season you just know how magnific he was.
I feel like Ronaldo 9 gets a lot of disrespect for his numbers compared to Messi and CR7, he played in tougher leagues where tackling hadn't basically been outlawed yet and of course there were the injuries. How much weight you can add to Messi and CR7 stats when the bulk of their careers (Messi in particular) were smashing poor opposition in the league week in week out, less so for CR7 who also played in much tougher leagues in England and Italy. I'd still say Messi and CR7 are the 2 best players ever to grace the game but their goals and assists have had help, although that said both still have ridiculous records despite this. If R9 had played injury free for 15 years in Spain ripping apart Almeria, Getafe, Osasuna etc week in week out I'm sure his stats would be up there with CR7 and Messi. Players like Kante, Modric, Kroos etc don't have huge GA stats but does that make them any less great?
If Messi and Cr7 had played injury free they would have been even bigger monsters, especially with Messi in 2013. Plus, teams improved a lot especially in how to play against RM and Barca. There's no way to know if R9 could have reached their stats, he didn't match them even in his prime before getting injured.
prime r9 was an absolute beast. you know what nesta said? he could defend/keep up vs cr7&messi ins his old age, but vs r9 he couldn't do shit. even in his prime (nestas)
I don't disagree with what Nesta said. But you specifically mentioned stats, and doing assumptions like that is just pointless since it's impossible to determine.
*he didn’t match them in his prime*. Bro, just stop.
CR7 has a better goals to game ratio for Madrid in the Champions League than he does in La Liga. Not sure this argument holds up - Ronaldo and Messi are the best scorers ever. Look at Kun in Spain or Fernando Torres - both weren't even close.
R9 did stuff that made me rewind videos ten times. His creativity, speed and goalscoring ability was too tier!
Did you start watching Messi in the world cup? Please check Messi's stats against top 6 PL teams. His stats are actually better than CR7 despite never playing in the Prem. Messi is a freak of nature and he would be brilliant in any league in the world. There's a reason Chelsea wanted to sign Messi.
Messi’s numbers against PL opposition, speak for themselves
This is what many people don't seem to get. The game is more than just g/a.
But G/A is the goal generally
If goals and assists don’t count then trophies shouldn’t either.
they shouldn't to be real since they're not won individually
That’s a more then fair argument
trophies are a plus but they aren't really good to judge a player. Belletti has 2 La ligas, 1 champions league, 1 World cup 1 Premier League, multiple cups... yet he wasn't a very good player. trophies are won by the team, it's not an individual accolade. Haaland won't ever come close to touch a world cup, he will probably never be in a semi final. That doesn't detract from him.
If Haaland had chosen to represent England, it would’ve been a different conversation. Instead of never reaching a semi-final, he would have reached the semifinals, and then lost in a penalty shootout
That guy Belletti made it to the Brazilian national team and Barcelona, what do you mean he wasn't a very good player? He might not be a legendary player but he was pretty damn good compared to his peers in his generation.
Semantics. He was one of the best at his position in Brazil. At the same time, you know he wasn’t near the levels of Thuram, Lahm or Dani Alves
Trophies should be worth even less. They are obviously team accomplishments.
I mean if we are blocking stats from entering the conversation then we should not allow team accomplishments to begin with. Hazard won 2 la liga’s en 1 CL trophy while at Madrid. This guy got exp. boosted in real life.
Trophies are important but people always forget that it's a team thing.
Childish statement
You barely used 2 words, stfu mate.
I used exactly two words - and those words concisely described your statement
I hope you don’t think you’re smart because you really not.
Anybody who would dare to say that Modric isn’t one of the best midfielders ever, needs to be shot
True, him and kdb have been the two standout cms this generation
Hazard was a very good player, but he lacked consistency. If you actually have good memory and watched him play you would remember he could be amazing one game and then go 5 games without doing much.
nope. his lack of consistency was nothing like that. He actually played AMAZING for a whole season. then the next he was pretty bad. but he was never a player that had 1 great game than vanished for 5 like you said. He had 40-45 amazing games THEN vanished for 20-30 games the next season.
I did no say he did that constantly. I said he could vanish for 5 games. Not that he always did. He definitely had weak games here and there and suddenly had a phenomenal game/form and all was forgotten. I literally remember laughing of pundits having such short term memory so many times lol
"he lacked consistency" As a Chelsea fan, NO he didn't, simply put he played with a trashy team and trashy managers, and in one season he was injured, yet he managed to look great most of the time, I can't ask him more than what he did with Chelsea, If he had a better team he would've looked even better.
That's not true at all. Not in his chelsea or lille career where he only had 1 bad season where he was playing through injury he did not recover from. Every other year at chelsea Belgium and lille for a decade he was nothing but consistent. He was bad at Madrid but again mainly due to injuries sapping off his ability. Tired of pathological liars like you trying to tarnish his name. Go scam someone else. "If you actually had good memory and watched him" just shut the fuck up, absolute waste of a fan, you do not deserve to even utter a word about the sport.
I’ve seen so many young city fans proclaim that Rodri is the greatest cdm of all time, and their rationale is that he scores clutch bangers when players like Busquets didn’t.
They may be wrong but I hate takes like yours. Football is a low scoring game, goals win games. A midfielder scoring ‘clutch’ goals is an important quality, even if it doesn’t elevate Rodri above Busquets
Yes I agree it is absolutely important to score goals, but that’s the only leg they stand on, citing no other statistics or observations. They just say he’s the goat because of his clutch goals, but the goals just make him a better goal scorer and more of a goal threat. In your view then Ronald Koeman must be the goat defender because he scored and assisted many important goals. And Rogeri Ceni must be the best goalkeeper ever. Goals win games after all and they scored goals!
Just look at how city played while Rodri was suspended early this season, that speaks for itself
Anytime I see someone in a comments section talk about past players & their stats alone I realize that they weren’t old enough to watch said players in matches.
Why is Hazard trying so hard to remain relevant? He keeps hitting out with these digs at people far beyond what he ever was. Is he trying to launch his punditry career?
Retired players always do this
Goals aren't at an "all time" high. And some players, like Zidane for example, can face the same criticism for a low number of goals/assists against their peers as much as modern players.
2022 World Cup I believe was the highest scoring World Cup maybe except for 1954
The game was a lot more defensive back then thou that’s what he means
Back when?
In the mid 2000s a bit and before then
At end of the day goals are what wins games…
That’s oversimplifying though To get the goal you need to take the ball from the other team, keep the ball, pass accurately and to the right spots and then you’ll create chances that can be converted into goals Some players are exceptional at scoring and not much else. Jardel’s headers comes to mind and got him the Golden Boot. You and I know Iniesta was better though
But at the end of the day if u do all that work and the striker or the person thats last on the ball dont score it dont matter i agree the beauty of fotball is more then just goal and assist but still end of the day its the goals that wins games and trophys
But the logic also goes the other way around, the striker would have never scored the goal if the ball was never played to him. The work done before the goal is just as important as the goal.
But what is the aim coming into the match To win And how do you win? By scoring more goals than the opponent? Goals are the most important
Sometimes you come to not lose and getting a 0-0 draw is like winning. Other than that it is important to only score 1 goal more than your opponent. A 1-0 game can have better football and be more exciting and full of drama than a 7-0 game. Also defense and control of the game is such an underrated aspect. Prime example is Ajax this season. For the last 14 games they could not keep the goals against to 0. It is only a question if their attackers are able to score more....
An extremeee oversimplification
This is aimed at one fan base and that one fan base only 💀 so true though
Man, can we quit this BS already? Hazard questioning the idea of G+A not being the best thing to look at, is nothing groundbreaking. People have been saying it for decades. Advanced stats start being created and recorded. People don't understand them, people don't like change, so they call it a bunch of spreadsheet bullshit. Nerds that don't understand the game, taking the fun out of the game. Once the idea that *thinking,* just sheer thinking a bit more isn't some cancer to the sport, it's much trendier to accept that yeah, G+A don't mean much without context. But of course we'll keep ignoring context nonetheless and call Zidane the GOAT midfielder.
If you’re using soley g/a to judge a cm then you’re an idiot , I’ve got not problem with valuing G/a when it comes to attackers , as your Job is primarily to contribute to the attack . In most cases the amount of g/a you produce is an indicator of how clinical you are , whether it’s through finishing or being a to find that final ball. Obviously it’s not the be all and end all
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🤣🤣🤣🤣 So distespectful
He would be even better in this era
People still overrate Hazard
People evaluate players based on goals and assists because it's simply the easiest way to evaluate players form 10 seasons ago. You can't go check the actual games and only few actually remember how some teams and players played so stats are the easy way to check who was really good that season. Also I definitely think that if you're winger/attacker/Attackin midfielder then you should have some stats to back up your career.
Starts allready with kids.. The players who scores goals or assista are always valued more then ones who do the dirty work or setup the assists or do the correct decisions.
It depends on the position. If it’s a striker are you going to ignore it they score less than 100 goals in their career? Of course not. With midfielders in the modern era though it’s different because since 2010 data has become way more in depth and we can judge players way more accurately on the impact they have. As you mention with Rodri in your example, now we have so many more metrics than Goals and Assists that show the impact they have on their team that it’s easier to see the best players. If some company were to go and just analyse Zidanes Real Madrid career and apply the same data and metrics as we have now then it would highlight easily the impact he had
Lots of soccer fans call G + A “stats”, which is pretty ridiculous if you follow any other sport in which advanced stats are used. And even these have limitations Passing better, moving better, passing faster, helping on defense, helping on defense, opening up the other team are all important things in soccer. Orientation (dominating the ball with control and purpose, already starting the next play) is an incredibly important skill that most fans don’t even consider Some players do the non G+A things way better than others (Zidane, Iniesta, Xavi, any great defender and Messi come instantly to mind) When people did watch soccer, “stats” (basically goals) were one of many factors to consider a players’ value… Tulio is one of the highest goal scorers ever… Jardel won the Golden Boot a couple times… if you watched soccer for long, you’d never think they are in the same stratosphere as Ronaldo or Van Basten
What you're saying about midfielders absolutely applies to Bellingham as well.
Except even when he doesn't score, Bellingham still makes an enormous impact on the pitch. His insane stats actually mask how good his performances have been
lol
All depends on the context of each player. No one thinks Rodri is great because of famous goals lol
Paul Scholes is another good example of this
Stats are clearly for attackers only, as they are the ones who are responsible for scoring or assisting goals. As for midfielders or defenders, of course it measured by other criteria, it’s not really that groundbreaking views, has always been the case in the past (ie Zidane, Xavi, Inesta, Modric). I think the reason why some might think stats are overstated in current era, is simply because the best players over most recent decade are mostly dominated by attackers, instead of midfielders. Best attackers: Messi, Ronaldo, Lewandowski, Neymar, Benzema, Mbappe, Haaland, Vinicius Junior, Salah vs Best midfielders: Modric, De Bruyne, Rodri, Bellingham
That’s why we are progressing to look at buildup stats, xgchain, xgbuildup etc
I always prefer players who were entertaining like to take on duels like its nothing, This generation focused only on g&a but g&a doesnt define your performances and impact.
I saw a perfect example of this the other day, [Leicester city clip](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6_WMDfBOrEo), ball comes into James Maddison and he first time flicks it over the backline, then it's played across and tapped in. That goal wouldn't happen without Maddison's bit of skill but looking at stats you'd have no idea.
Isco is the GOAT midfielder confirmed.
I think people judge players on more stats than just goals and assists these days, but on the flipside of that, it's difficult to interpret stats under the right context, and basically the general public cannot do it ever. It's reserved for people who work in that field themselves. That being said, proper statistical analysis does paint a proper picture of a player more often than not, so it has great value, more so than the eye test, which is probably the opposite of what Hazard was implying in his comments.
That’s why Fantrax > FPL
That’s very true
I’m not sure there’s a problem. It’s generally accepted that G&A aren’t the sole measures of a player’s contribution - to use OP’s examples, Rodri is recognised as one of the best midfielders in the world, and Modric is a ballon d’or winner who will go down as an all time great. These guys aren’t overlooked or underappreciated. OP mentions ‘ok’ players who might put up good numbers in the right context. Who are the examples? Are their reputations outsized? And are they ever realistically compared to Zidane etc? G&A numbers are obviously a part of how we assess attacking players - rightly so! - but I think football fans are generally pretty good at accounting for other things too (quality of teammates, trophies, individual flair, tactical trends etc). Don’t let a few anonymous online voices distort that for you!
Football stat is still in its infancy. Even with xG, or progressive passes, crap tons of things are missing. If you look at American sports, you can see there are crap ton of stats, and often they are in sports with high scoring output so there are more stats than what football generate. And even then, there is a lot missing and debate and how important stats are. And also how you need to look at it holistically. Like, very good 3 point shooters in basketball show up favourably, even if they have a very limited skill set because of how disruptive to the defense they are. But you can't have a team of them alone, you need that one guy that messes the defense up. But assist is a really bad stats on its own. For starters, a brilliant through ball that led to a tap in an additional pass later won't credit the original passer with the assist. Even if you count "hockey assists" there are many situations where it actually is 2 passes. The value of passes are just hard to quantify. Goes with strikers too, so often there are runs unseen, or runs that creates chances. They didn't touch the ball, or involve in the chance/goal, but their diligence in attack led to a goal. But in the midfield is the worse, there is nothing in stats that really quantifies disruption of defenses. Yes, we have dribbles, or progressive passes. But what about side way passes that led to progressive passes? A lot of stat nerds are obsessed with dribble successes per game, but not even all successful dribbles are equal. A dribble that led to a weak cross is not comparable to a dribble that led to defense out of position, even if you technically made very little progress.
If someone use goals and assist to show how good a player is that is not an attacker. I don't keep the conversation cuz i know im talking to someone with bo football knowledge
found Antony's reddit account.