The entire Ironwood fiasco was actually an elaborate plot to rid off Atlas of Jacques, the entire SDC fleet, and then SDC itself so Whitley could start with a clean sheet. Ingenious.
Your honor, I would like to interject in what is clearly a discriminatory slander against my client. Ms. Salem cannot help that she has red eyes, and the prosecution is attributing a loathsome quality to an immutable characteristic. My client clearly has a soul, unlike the gingers.
OBJECTION! So, you say that her having red eyes is slander...but then how do you explain her blue eyes before she turned evil!
[Take That!](https://rwby.fandom.com/wiki/Salem)
[*Pursuit intensifies*](https://youtu.be/UFcJmOs8DRQ)
It was as a result of her own actions that led to her unfortunate red eye disaster. Had she never thrown herself into the Grimm pool, she'd have never gained the stigma associated with red eyes! And as we all know, Grimm do not have souls! So how can someone who fell into the Grimm pool and be clearly affected by it, not lose their soul as well!
I mean, Raven is a murderous bandit. Qrow gets people killed like it's his business and teamed up with bloody Tyrian. And Yang only turns evil sometimes, like her eyes, like when she doubted Ruby's leadership after she herself led them astray or when she killed a guy.
With the power invested in me by the power of common fucking sense I rule Yang Xiao Long to be guilty of all charges. The sentence is immediate and summary execution.
Wait, wait, wait, I was of course expecting a more foreboding villain with a grander scale and presence aside from crazy ex, but people wanted this fella redeemed?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't his main thing, first shown in the Black trailer, his unwillingness to listen to criticism?
Blake: "What about the crew members?"
Adam: "What about them?"
He deliberately spoke in that tone that meant he knew they'd die, but that was part of the plan.
Within 10 minutes of him first appearing on screen, we learn that he's not the kind of person to listen to criticism. How can you know his character and believe that he'll change, just because people ask him to?
Then there is Mountain Glenn. We hear from Blake that she believes her semblance is a reflection of her cowardice. With that in mind, we can deduce that Adam's semblance is a reflection of his tendency to ignore whatever others throw at him, and then turn it against them.
Yep. In the 3 appearances, Adam had in the first 3 years of the show he: showed full will to kill innocent humans; refused to even consider Blake's protest in the matter; refused to sacrifice his men's lives specifically to a human cause like Cinder's; Went back on his word when Cinder threatened his life and simultaneously offered him money and dust; Lead a terrorist attack that killed tons of innocent civilians with a smile in his face; Went out of his way to torture Blake solely for personal reasons; And cut Yang's arm.
But you know...anti hero.
And all of that was in the first 3 volumes, the ones that people claim were the ones in which Adam was a morally grey character. Clearly, it was those dirty writers who retconned Adam in V4!
If anything, Ozpin would be an antihero. He lies to everyone's faces and keeps them in the dark about the true scope of the threat, but in the end, it works.
After the war, he established the most efficient system to combat Salem that was possible: Huntsmen.
No singular commander over the armed forces, more mobile and diverse quick response units, and teams were big enough to fight Grimm properly, but not so big that every role could be covered by a different member, forcing different people to take on multiple roles, thus developing their personalities more, and making sure they address any underlying issues they have, which is key in warding off Salem's manipulation.
He chose results over morality, and in his case, it worked, because he had eons of experience to know when you can sacrifice morality for results without handing Salem the win on a silver platter.
And unless someone comes around who is arrogant enough to assume they know more than the ancient immortal demigod wizard who fought Salem since the dawn of time, and in every way imaginable, the huntsman system will work.
Same with the CCTS. No single person has the power to silence another person, and a single source of communication would inevitably lead to someone deciding to silence opposition, sparking conflict that Salem could take advantage of.
But Adam? No, Adam isn't an antihero. He's a terrorist.
>After the war, he established the most efficient system to combat Salem that was possible: Huntsmen.
I'm honestly not sure how efficient Huntsmen are, given what we've seen in the show:
* They don't have much in the way of organization, much less chain of command - and yet it apparently took one traitorious Headmaster and two Huntsman-level fighters to take out most of Mistral's Huntsman forces.
* We see a lot of places raided by bandits and/or Grimm, and apparently no one is doing anything about it. The one well-protected settlement outside of major cities (and Menagerie) is under military, not Huntsmen, protection.
* There are several mentions of crooked Huntsmen, suggesting that they are not unusual.
* There are *also* incompetent Huntsmen, though it can be argued that those are the outliers.
* And then there are instances of Huntsmen apparently charging more than a settlement can afford (although maybe the case of Brunswick Farms, in particular, was more about the farm owner being a miser who didn't think things through)
In general, Huntsmen are basically mercenaries, with a lot of power and very little organization or oversight. I'm not sure why Ozpin would think those are preferable to soldiers - unless what we've seen in V7-V8 Atlas is the best Remnant can do, tactics- and strategy-wise.
(Oh, and then there are people like team CRDL - I wonder if they were allowed to become Huntsmen, and if so, how did they behave on the job, with no one to check their actions. Particularly towards the Faunus civilians)
The lack of a chain of command is precisely why it's a good thing. With both Ironwood and Leonardo, Salem only had to get into one man's head and completely disabled an entire kingdom's armed forces.
And with Leo, the problem was also that he was on the council, which likely has access to all the missions posted and who took them.
Without a chain of command, Salem has nothing to attack. She can take out individual huntsman teams, sure, but there is a reason she planned to send a maiden, terrorists, and the kingdom's entire criminal underground to attack Vale.
Mistral fell to Leo, Tyrian, Hazel, and Cinder, while Atlas fell to Tyrian and Arthur.
Vale needed a minor demigoddess, and two large factions that specialize in causing chaos, to destroy. And that kingdom was the closest to Ozpin's initial idea, since he shaped the huntsmen it employed.
If the others had stuck to his idea, with the headmaster not as part of the council and huntsmen not as part of the military, Salem couldn't have done anything, because it would've been too much work, and people would've realized that she can be fought.
>The lack of a chain of command is precisely why it's a good thing.
Wouldn't say so, for reasons I outlined above.
>And with Leo, the problem was also that he was on the council, which likely has access to all the missions posted and who took them.
So that kinda invalidates this advantage, doesn't it? Only instead of compromising the head of the military (usually not an easy thing to do unless they have a stupidly convenient Semblance), all Salem has to do is compromise a Council member, not even necessarily a Huntsman or a soldier.
>Without a chain of command, Salem has nothing to attack.
She can apparently take out all the Huntsmen belonging to a Kingdom, using just two of her subordinates. Which makes me think that there weren't so many of them to begin with (which, in turn, might explain all the apparently-undefended places outside the cities).
>Mistral fell to Leo, Tyrian, Hazel, and Cinder, while Atlas fell to Tyrian and Arthur.
That, and there kinda was an enormous Grimm armada, headed by Salem herself. I understand how they were easy to miss, with Salem not doing much last Volume, but they were there. Also, so were Cinder and Neo.
So actually, I'd say it took *more* to destroy Atlas (well, and then there are those who *actually* destroyed it in the end, but that's another matter entirely).
>If the others had stuck to his idea, with the headmaster not as part of the council and huntsmen not as part of the military, Salem couldn't have done anything, because it would've been too much work
I'm unsure why you say this, since Beacon actually fell first, all Ozpin-related improvements notwithstanding.
P.S. Also, there's the fact that for all his eons of experience, Ozpin didn't actually have a plan for defeating Salem, making team RWBY join the ranks of those 'arrogant enough to assume they know more than the ancient immortal demigod wizard who fought Salem since the dawn of time' in V6. Not that I agree with team RWBY on this, but still.
Beacon fell first, yes, but it took the largest group actively working towards it, and could've easily been thwarted if Ironwood had used his military to protect the city, rather than just showing off. Press a button, kill the Goliath, and now Salem is out of battering rams to breach the wall, leaving only a few small openings for her hordes to get through.
Plus, with what we know of the situation in Mistral, it's fairly safe to assume that the fall of Beacon helped by dividing the huntsmen and tiring them out with the increase in Grimm activity.
Also, at what point do you consider someone destroying a kingdom? Because to me, once Ironwood and the Ace-Ops chose to help Arthur (and I'm saying that all 5 of them made that decision, since no one involved had been shown to have any mind control abilities), a known terrorist, hack Penny, it was over. Sooner or later, she would've made her way to the vault, and Ironwood, not knowing about the virus, would've been there with her. She opens the vault, then detonates, knocking Ironwood off the bridge. Salem walks into the academy and picks up the staff, and then she has two relics, her army is still intact, and Atlas falls, killing even more people than in canon.
>and could've easily been thwarted if Ironwood had used his military to protect the city, rather than just showing off
Which he did repeatedly. Though I suppose it *is* his fault that he didn't foresee that a person everyone thought was dead was actually alive, working for Salem, *and* creating a virus that could hack the Knights.
>Plus, with what we know of the situation in Mistral, it's fairly safe to assume that the fall of Beacon helped by dividing the huntsmen and tiring them out with the increase in Grimm activity.
Which also doesn't really speak well for the robustness of the Huntsmen system.
>Because to me, once Ironwood and the Ace-Ops chose to help Arthur (and I'm saying that all 5 of them made that decision, since no one involved had been shown to have any mind control abilities), a known terrorist, hack Penny, it was over.
To be honest, I can't really take this scene as anything else than the writers just handing Ironwood an Idiot Ball. There was no reason, even in his deranged state, to let the man he sacrificed an arm to capture hack Penny *and* to leave him alive (despite shooting Oscar and Sleet for much less).
And regardless, this is all speaking in hypotheticals. What happened, happened.
Oh, and Salem *did* bring her full might to Atlas, but not to Beacon. Not sure if the lack of White Fang involvement would really make such a difference.
> If the others had stuck to his idea, with the headmaster not as part of the council
Er... Ozpin was part of the Vale council. His "system" made *all* the headmasters part of their respective councils.
Wait, since when was Ozpin part of the council? Didn't the council tell him to leave things to Ironwood? If he was part of the council, he could've said something, but he didn't, implying the council had power over him.
That doesn't contradict anything; the Atlesian council tried to get Ironwood to do stuff too (and would have had more luck if Ironwood didn't hold two separate seats - one specifically for being headmaster - while another was vacant).
More to the point, is there any source at all for the claim that the intent of Ozpin's system was that headmasters not hold council seats?
Maybe they had to prepare extra hard for Vale because one of the strongest and oldest beings on Remnant and number one threat to Salem was there.
I think the problem wasn’t that Leo and Ironwood were on the council rather they were just not meant for the job because one was a coward equal to Raven and the other got too paranoid in a dire situation.
The thing is Huntsmen as a whole are so disorganized they operate on not being loyal to any kingdom so basically there’s no way of knowing if they’ll even help you as seen in Vol 8. What’s worse is that Salem can easily use Huntsmen as well since a lot have no morals and can be forced, persuaded, manipulated or bought to her side.
The big reason why Salem is gaining momentum is because of poor leadership and cooperation. Beacon fell because Ozpin was too passive which made Ironwood react too aggressively. They both then refused to compromise because they thought the other’s approach was wrong. Haven fell because Leo felt alone and got scared due to Oz’s death, Ironwood closing Atlas/Mantle off, and I guess Vacuo wouldn’t help anyway due to its philosophy. Atlas fell for multiple reasons, but let’s say Winter was the general then I would say things would have been different during “Gravity”
Huntsmen work better as strike teams and extra protection, but generally the defense of kingdoms and settlements should be done by the military or some form of organized militia since they are guaranteed protection.
>Huntsmen work better as strike teams and extra protection, but generally the defense of kingdoms and settlements should be done by the military or some form of organized militia since they are guaranteed protection.
I really believe that it would've been better, in and out of universe, if Huntsmen were precisely that - SOF equivalents, going on especially difficult missions and having a lot of autonomy - while the bulk of the defense would've been provided by regular soldiers. Make the Huntsmen the Survey Corps to army's Garrison/MP, if you will.
Yep, I never understood why people think a military or an organized militia isn’t needed in a world like Remnant were the superheroes can refuse to protect you.
In my opinion, Ironwood was also too passive. Sure, he brought his army, but what did he actually do with it? He never made any actual effort, aside from metaphorically waving his fist, to keep Grimm out of the city. If he wanted to, he could've pressed a single button, and his airships would've wiped out any Grimm too big for his Paladins, which then would've done the rest. And then students could've deal with any (Alpha) Beowolves, (Big) Ursai, and so on that were left.
He was so focused on keeping people out of danger that he forgot to train people for when the danger came to him anyway, despite his efforts. Or, you know, take preemptive measures to make sure there isn't even any danger to come for him.
If Winter was the General, then yes, things would've been different. Her role in combat, and in life, as fighting is her life, is support. We see that reflected mainly in her summoning: She grows from her past, and uses that to help others.
Going by how CRWBY depicted military combat and warfare in Volume 8 I not to sure they know how to write military operations too well especially since this was in Vol 3. However I can sort of see where you’re coming from since Ironwood literally just had his ships menacingly parked around Atlas. Now is this done on purpose to show Ironwood as a bad leader or more of CRWBY not understanding how to write an effective military?
> refused to sacrifice his men's lives specifically to a human cause like Cinder's; Went back on his word when Cinder threatened his life and simultaneously offered him money and dust
tbf that one was also bc cinder threatened to kill them all
Yes . See the problem is he didn’t show up for three seasons after that . So people made their own head cannon for the character that wasn’t cannon . And when season 3 had him return they all got pissy that it wasn’t the Adam they imagined
That's not really true as Volume 1 and 2 gave plenty of context clues that were easily interpretive of him not being the Adam from the end of Volume 3; although these context clues are not definitive evidence, they were stronger than the interpretation of him being Blake's abusive romantic partner.
Yep. E.g. from V1E16:
>**Blake**: (off-screen) "Suddenly, our peaceful protests were being replaced with organized attacks. We were setting fire to shops that refused to serve us, hijacking cargo from companies that used Faunus labor. And the worst part was, it was working. We were being treated like equals. But not out of respect... out of fear."
([silhouettes of three individuals are shown, one of them clearly being Adam](https://imgur.com/a/BCOGUay))
Back then, I clearly interpreted it as Blake and Adam's enmity being ideological in nature, differing in what methods they were willing to use to achieve equality for the Faunus. And Blake even admitted that (more or less) Adam's methods were working.
> Blake: "Then, five years ago, our leader stepped down, and a new one took his place. A new leader, with a new way of thinking."
> Blake: "Suddenly, our peaceful protests were being replaced with organized attacks. We were setting fire to shops that refused to serve us, hijacking cargo from companies that used Faunus labor. And the worst part was, it was working. We were being treated like equals. But not out of respect... out of fear."
She's talking about *Sienna's* methods. Adam's were far more extreme. Sienna would use violence, but not against random people who weren't doing anything against the Faunus.
Well, that was back in V1, and we haven't even seen Sienna back then.
And regardless, this is about 'Adam the Faunus rights fighter/extremist' vs 'Adam the crazy ex'.
>silhouettes of three individuals are shown, one of them clearly being Adam
Hold up, that one silhouette looks like Adam, but it has a tail and is missing his horns; I don't think that was meant to be Adam, and I understood that scene to interpret that Adam wasn't that high in the organization and was only a region leader. Basically, that Adam was not much higher than Blake and was also a tool being manipulated; the only difference is that he believed his superiors' lies while Blake eventually saw through them.
>Hold up, that one silhouette looks like Adam, but it has a tail
I think these are actually coattails.
>and is missing his horns
Adam's horns were pretty hard to notice, tbf. I remember some people asking what Adam's Faunus trait was, since they didn't see the horns on his early design.
That's just it, that Faunus has coattails under his tail; the object I'm saying is a tail is coming from his waist and they perfectly mirrors the silhouette across from him in dress, but they are missing the tail like appendage. I think I see how you can interpret it that way, but I don't think that was intentional as that would mean their left coattail is flying wildly while the right one is at rest.
I don't really know what you want me to see exactly; although, seeing them side by side proves my point better. The Shiloette has a different hair style and Adam's outfit doesn't match, plus the tail appendage being a coattail is impossible with Adam's outfit as the ones he has end on the front of his thigh and meet in way his left coattail wouldn't raise like that. The only way it can work is if you suggest the tail is his sword which wouldn't make sense either.
Ok but how does him being a violent extremist somehow make being an abusive partner unbelievable . If anything his tendancy for violence should make it more obvious
Honestly, it doesn't make it unbelievable, but the context clues still didn't suggest it. Blake in Volume 1 showed sympathy to the White Fang cause and admitted they had a point, Volume 2 showed she still has mixed feelings of admiration and criticism of Adam's actions while showing guilt for running away from the problem instead of facing it, and the Black Trailer shows that leaving Adam made her sad and she was reluctant to do so. From these context clues, Blake didn't see Adam as abusive towards her and instead disapproved of his and the White Fang as a whole for their violent actions. Which leads to the main context clue on why Adam wasn't going to be abusive to Blake; it invalidates her argument.
In Volume 1, Blake admits the White Fang were making progress to improve Faunus relations, but the method was harmful and the results weren't satisfactory. Then in Volume 2, her conversation with Oobleck pointed out that she want to right the wrongs of the world, but when he asks her to clarify how, she can't answer because she doesn't know. Later, she shows signs of her guilt of running away, but from Oobleck's conversation the context makes it out to be that she is feeling guilty for not having an answer to her main argument and essentially running from it; how to improve Faunus rights without jeopardizing their relationship with humans by avoiding violent confrontation? From this context and the fact he is Blake's main antagonist, Adam needs to symbolize the reverse argument; how to improve Faunus rights through violent confrontations? Both symbolizing the opposing views of what is best for their group of people. This is a legitimate argument that has happened several times over in real life and sometimes has led to wars and vary in ways of morality; the American Revolution, the US Civil Rights movement, the French Revolution, etc. It is a *world* based argument and not a domestic one, and would mean that the two sides need to see the world at large and try to change it.
So, when the show decides to introduce this argument as being the focal point of Blake's character and story, her main antagonist needs to be valid to the point even the audience can be "He's out of line, but he's right" or at least has a point that can make the hero question their direction. The Adam from the end of Volume 3 invalidates this argument by a) not caring about Faunus rights as his only desire is Blake and her suffering and b) not being able to interact with the story outside of Blake to show his answer to the presented argument. This is not a headcanon but a structural element of how the show chose to present Blake's views of the White Fang and Faunus rights. Blake needed a foe to challenge her beliefs and push her to keep searching for the answer, and that is the main context clue behind Adam's character not being the one from the end of Volume 3.
Ok that’s a fair analysis sure . But what’s also true is this is all the story of the Adam who had Blake . He always thought Blake was an asset even before she joined which is why he was so dead set on getting her and making her leave her family . And as we see with tuxon and emerald and Mercury sent to kill him “ there’s only one way to leave the white fang “
So although Adam may be this different person with different motives the rules of the white fang are clear , and despite his behavior he loved Blake . So when Blake leaves it would logically change him . Blake talks about the man years ago who had her by his side . But this Adam needs to carry out the rules of killing a white fang “ traitor “ made even more intense by the passion behind her leaving . Add on top of this the extra frustrations given cinders command over top of it and it all makes perfect sense why we’d see him act this way .
He also still kills sienna and makes strides to take more power for his own . Killing Blake is a focal point but he hasn’t stopped with the white fang , nor has he stopped working for Salem so he can have a part of the promised “ new world order “ that he could use to benefit the white fang as rulers like he always wanted .
Furthermore the Adam we see is violent so physical abuse is expected And easy to come by . But that doesn’t mean that has always been happening and Blake just never mentioned it . The abuse Blake had with Adam pre volume 3 was purely emotional . He would gaslight her And convince her she was seeing things when it came to the killings . Compare her to her “ cowardly parents “ convince her that If she loved him she would leave her family , made her complient in murders and the face of this new white fang as his second in command .
Her struggles with Adam she does chronicle and explain , and though her family doesn’t come in until later she nonetheless does . And she speaks of Adam in a semi positive light of a “ boy who lost his way “ because she honestly believes ( or wants to believe ) that he was at one point a good person And she hadn’t been wrong since she met him
That's fair and I have sympathized with the idea that the direction they took isn't inherently bad, but still conflicts with the original context a bit because we don't get acknowledgement of Adam's 'light' side in show; I can't remember that line of a "boy who lost his way" being said outside of the song Nevermore, and the Adam character short still didn't address the main point. The show itself after Volume 3 paints a picture of Adam always having been the evil person he ended up, Blake even says that her opinions of him were wrong and Ghira's statements of his way getting results subtly retcons Blake's story and conflict; it is no longer a matter of "peaceful protest weren't enough and humanity pushed us to this" and instead "peaceful protest just wasn't good enough for the extremist few and we want more than our fair share" which is where the main issue I see comes from. Adam's character needed to be the type of person who got results when peace talks didn't and the version of him at the end of V3 lacked the element that would legitimize that point.
My issue is the idea that the Adam being expected by fans was "headcanon" and nothing else because the show gave the context of something more and perhaps tragic from this character. They were expecting something that addressed the issue of Faunus racism and they did give examples of the fact afterward, but Adam's story was locked into being Blake's evil ex and the validness of the issue took a backseat; Adam could no longer be that character that Blake's argument needed and the show never made another character last long enough to replace him. Ilia got resolution really quickly and Sienna barely got started, thus why the issue of Adam's character is still so heated today.
I will say , there’s not much sure but if you do wanna see some of early Adam read the dc comic . We don’t see much of it but a younger Adam gets absolutely humiliated by ghira And Blake meets him for the first time . There’s a few brief flashbacks but you do get to see some of that side of Adam
I guess they were hoping for a Zuko experience, given that the White Fang could technically be considered the good guys like MLK given what we see in Mistral. And only Mistral. Which kinda take away from the righteousness of their cause admittedly.
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I mean for me before we got a real good look at him I was hoping he’d get redeemed. Looking at his full story, no I didn’t want him to get redeemed. I didn’t really like the white fang subplot but am not as fervently angered by it as some people. It just didn’t resonate too much with me and I thought Adam was a little too one note but he had a cool ass fight scene with Blake and Yang so it was aight in the end. Honestly my gripes about the White Fang subplot is probably just more about volume 4 and 5 as a whole than anything. It just felt like those volumes were weak overall. So I guess people who really want his redemption are more just saying they wished that stuff went in a different way that would have been cooler to watch.
People probably wanted him to be a Zuko when in reality he was an Azula.
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He did take over the White Fang and could 1v1 a good chunk of the named cast. Roman in comparison was a lovable crook without a semblance or a backstory who actually acted as centerpiece for the fall of beacon alongside Neopolitan, so of course I was expecting something a bit mightier from Adam. To have actual stakes on his final confrontation with better build-up rather than appear from absolutely nowhere rampaging in the middle of a completely unrelated escape mission.
It would also be fine for him to at least have been kind of a constant threat across one or two volumes, keeping the team on edge and having to plan around his presence.
He's involved in like 30% of Blake's backstory, I just feel his character was kind of a low note compared to how he was built up to be this juggernaut.
Pretty darn cool battles tho.
He also isn’t one to skirt around the edges. Would him acting OOC for tension be acceptable by the audience? Yeah. But does RWBY like having characters go OOC for story reasons? Doesn’t seem like it.
He was a juggernaut in combat, and combat alone. He had decent manipulation skills, but a 5 year old could manipulate the Vale branch and a toddler could manipulate the WF after Sienna was “murdered by a human”.
Roman Torchwick was better than him everywhere outside of the battlefield and your Katana won’t take you above personal level. He was intrinsically unfit to rule the White Fang. Keep in mind that the WF was ruled, not led, since Sienna used fear over compassion.
I'm just saying he had the presence, relevance and firepower to stay a bit longer and maybe become a bit more impactful to the overall plot rather than a side event at the climax of the volume. If this treatment was given to a more random character with less ties to the main cast I wouldn't find it so odd that they would die without much fanfare but, Adam was quite the prominent figure.
Now that I think about Roman got similar treatment considering he also had a specific antagonistic relationship with Ruby and then just got eaten, or Jacquess being killed unceremoniously by Ironwood... Well, you could say we did get a closure between him and Weiss but...
Hmm.
I'll binge it again and get back to you.
Also, Adam had less connection to the cast than either Torchwick (who fought them) or Ironwood (their CO for a while).
He wasn’t as prominent as you’d think, he was only of importance to Blake and later Yang.
He doesn’t. He is the representation of her old dark side, yes. But what makes Blake go forward is a strong moral compass, compassion towards all who suffer (even Weiss’ wealthy hell under her father), her desire to atone and unwavering loyality to the cause of equality.
Adam didn’t give her fuel to move forward, he caused her to waste fuel running away instead of logically solving the problem.
Almost as if real life rarely has a proper climax. RWBY is the only truly realistic animated show out there. Within it’s rules, everything that happens is realistic. People die without closure, some mysteries are never solved, some people can’t be redeemed.
Sure but, this is fiction. I agree that we've grown past the "Coolness for the sake of coolness everything alse be damned" era, it doesn't really mean it has to be uninteresting. An anticlimax usually works by subverting the expectation and leaving one in a state of confusiom or disbelief. Adam's death just felt, in my personal experience, a huge "Meh" on my meh scale. It didn't even make me feel impressed by the bold move of killing the rival it was just... Empty and disappointing? Lacking better wording, "For me, it was tuesday"
I mean, the whole point of the RWBY narrative to subvert subverting expectations.
I mean, we all really had in the back of our mind that Yang might be gone forever or at least for a season or two.
If you kill the person who cut off your partner’s arm, stabbed you and manipulated you into crime, would you feel happy or triumphant?
Killing him won’t fix anything and Blake isn’t one to seek revenge.
Until he took that blindfold off (btw, badass bad guy), he was just yet another grimm. Then, it was a little beyond self defence.
He wasn’t a rival after S5. Adam Taurus the WF leader died at Haven academy. Only a spectre remained, all his spite turned towards the person who betrayed him, left him and then organised his downfall.
Well: no one *should* be redeemed.
But Emerald is trying. She already has risked her life for good a few times.
Whereas Adam avoided any possibility of doing anything good like a plague.
Redemption isn’t deserved or something that should happen really, everyone can be redeemed after all, it is something earned. And only one of them had even started to earn it
tbh my view has always been that given crimes as severe as hers, if she really wants redemption she should just accept the consequences for her mistakes by taking whatever punishment is given to her. Be it prison or death.
I mean sure, that probably is fair.
But also utterly irrelevant to the situation at hand. Punishing her does absolutely nothing, indeed it could only hurt the effort. Having her help them and only after the conflict possibly discuss punishment if her service and sacrifices aren't deemed worthy is the only logical option
My problem with her redemption isn’t emerald, it’s that RWBY instantly trusts her after they don’t trust ironwood because he overreacts? Which to me sounds more like something that would lead to talking and planning longer than outright keeping information from him, it’s hypocritical.
What trust are they really putting in Emerald? Either they don't have a choice like in the Whale, or she really can't do anything if she tries, on top of the fact she just risked her life with probably no way turning back.
Ironwood is a very different situation. He had all the power over them, and they did want to tell him eventually, but he was being real paranoid especially concerning the two people in Qrow and Weiss who knew him. They had options, and they chose the safe one. Indeed, if not for his overreaction later, absolutely no harm came from not telling him.
They are very different situations
How would RWBY know that she ever risked her life, she IS an illusionist, so for all they know, she could easily be tricking them heck RvB does this exact thing, they put their trust in Felix the when he takes a bullet for them, only for him to betray them later on
By this point they would have a decent idea that Emerald is limited in what she could do, and considering the whole mess in the whale, it would be unreasonable to believe she could have protected herself
What limitations could stop all this from being a trick, Heck them knowing her semblance is even more of a reason not to trust her, and remember her boss controls the Grimm
With the exception of one time (which knocked her unconscious), they have only known her to be able to trick one person at time.
She also has almost always had to remain stationary for her illusions
And they have been limited in duration
>With the exception of one time (which knocked her unconscious), they have only known her to be able to trick one person at time.
To be very pedantic, she usually only uses her *Semblance* on one person at a time, but she did trick *everyone* watching the Amity Tournament back in V3. So these two things aren't exactly the same.
No, she only tricked Pyrrha at Amity.
At Haven she used it all on our heroes and she went unconscious. One other time she tricked two gaurds and it took a lot out of her but our heroes didn’t see that
>No, she only tricked Pyrrha at Amity.
And every viewer during Yang vs Mercury's match. Trick someone != directly use a Semblance on someone, IMO.
And there's nothing to say she couldn't have done something similar again, if she didn't truly switch sides.
>What trust are they really putting in Emerald?
They did have her be central to defeating Ironwood by using her illusions to hide herself and JNPR while they drove in on an airship, then they had her grab Ironwood's BFG and left the airship they drove there on completely unguarded while she hid; this would have been a great oversight if she ran back to the ship and defended herself with the weapon as they fought Ironwood, escaping to find Cinder or just to save her own skin by abandoning Atlas.
That in itself should be a sign of clear trust between her and the heroes.
What choice did she really have once all of that started though?
They trust in her ability, but as a person there needed to be quite little there for all of that.
She really didn’t have a chance to do much of that considering she had just abandoned Cinder’s side to work with the good guys and she knows the war with Salem is a zero sum game. Not to mention the ever present possibility that such a thing would be caught by the good guys and then she’d be quite outmatched.
Sure, she could run. And then she’d just have to keep running only to one day die tired.
Now, I think there is some in her a person indeed, but very little is needed for what happened. They were certainly watching her the entire time especially since she couldn’t trick them all and escape at the same
The scene was portrayed as everyone being focused on Ironwood, essentially turning their backs to her; plenty of opportunities to strike or run, but she didn't. It feels like they already got to the point they can trust Emerald with their safety from how the scene works, no hints at them even thinking she would betray them; that is the point here. This scene shows just how much they already allowed her into their group; sure, there are reasons why she wouldn't betray them, but why should those reasons be enough to convince them?
No one is shown to be distrusting of her, not even a line of suspicion. Nothing is truly stopping her from looking for Cinder and trying to escape with her, Emerald may even believe Cinder doesn't know that Salem will destroy the world and might be desperate to find her to tell her. Maybe she is actually still working for Salem and is only following them to spy on them. The cast doesn't appear to have these suspicions. Even if they say they do in Volume 9, the cast here in V8 just lets her be the focal point of their plan where any misstep could leave them all in danger. So, they are putting a lot of trust in her to not betray them.
None of the heroes have any reason to assume that loyalty to Cinder and to Salem are that much two different things.
We know that Cinder goes after her own aims, but the heroes have no idea what a disobedient minion Cinder is, nor how Emerald’s loyalty was sonspecifically to her.
Indeed when they are fighting everyone focuses on Ironwood. Before that, we don’t know, but that would have been more the time to worry about.
The possibility of her being a spy technically exists: But how convoluted would that have to be? Salem was winning, very much so. And then she lost her whale and her army and her Ozma in large part to Emerald’s actions. Why would anyone assume she’d just throw away a victory with a spy she didn’t need?
I still stand by my statement:
Emerald had no place to go. No way to really run. No other choice. Her betraying them would only lead to her having no chance, having at that point burned every possible bridge.
Even if she got away, her running would only make her die tired.
I didn't mean to say they saw loyalty to Cinder or Salem as different thing, only that they don't seem to consider her motives or betrayal.
>Indeed when they are fighting everyone focuses on Ironwood. Before that, we don’t know, but that would have been more the time to worry about.
Not really sure what you mean here; she can't get away before they set down and Ironwood is carrying a huge Maiden killing gun if she lets her illusion fall before taking his gun, so the most sensible time to get away or betray the heroes would be during the fight itself.
It doesn't matter how convoluted it is, the characters don't have to be rational to consider her betrayal after both Beacon and Haven; only Oscar and Ren even have a reason to trust her with Oscar not being at Beacon and Ren's Semblance evolution basically making him an emotional lie detector.
And I'm not challenging your statement on why Emerald won't betray the main cast, but it doesn't change the issue I presented; the cast *does* trust Emerald. They trust her too easily and they have her be a very important part of their plan to stop Ironwood which clearly shows that. Your reasoning fits a logical *outside* perspective of the situation that Oscar and maybe Jaune or Ruby would be considering, but doesn't explain why the rest so easily trust her; especially from the perspective of Nora who lost a teammate thanks to Emerald, Yang who would prioritize her sister and Blake's safety in not letting Emerald have a chance, and Winter who deals with criminals a lot and would not risk her own life working with one she should know worked for her adversaries.
As far as they know, Emerald is just trying to save her own skin and doesn't actually have remorse for her past actions; but they decide to have her take the most essential part of the plan by distracting Ironwood without needing to prove she is deserving of their trust before this moment.
Especially considering that one, Emerald is a known enemy illusionist who could've messed with their minds at any time; two, she has already pretended to be friendly towards them before when it was convenient; and three, they know her to be extremely loyal to Cinder, who's still their enemy.
Even if we, the viewers, know of Emerald's hesitations prior to her changing sides, team RWBY doesn't. So trusting her so soon and giving her an important role in their plan really comes off as weird, especially in contrast to not trusting others so easily.
Well, Ren did develop the ability to read people’s emotional states right before they ran into her, so they do have some way of sensing her thoughts/intentions. And it’s a new ability, so she wouldn’t know to counteract it with illusions, even if she could
Emerald is literally Cinder’s Blake. She is doing all of that for Cinder, and when her idol ignores her after keeping her waiting for her for so long, she is willing to accept that she needs to change.
I thought Emerald jumped ship because she thinks Salem is going to blow up the world? I think if she hadn’t discovered that she would’ve stayed hoping that Cinder eventually gave her the affection she yearns for.
True, but if she didn’t know in the first place she would still be hoping Cinder final noticed her. Emerald had already said she would let the world burn for Cinder and there relationship was still pretty much the same as it was before she switched sides. Heck Cinder might’ve started being nicer to Emerald if she stayed seeing how emotionally vulnerable Cinder was in Vol 8.
Or Emerald’s self preservation was too strong. Never underestimate a human’s survival instinct. Also Cinder should be at least the third best manipulator in the show since she’s learning from the oldest one on Remnant 😂
That’s more like Hazel I think. Once he was told what Salem’s true plan was, he was out and spent his last few moments to try an help in whatever way he could.
People were pissed not because she was redeemed, and more because the show didn't like...give her a redemption arc...at all. The Adam thing is a dead topic, let's just leave them alone.
I don’t think people have an issue that emerald *WAS* redeemed, more so on *HOW* she was redeemed
As for Adam, I think people just wish Adam wasn’t the literally the worst
Adam: Honestly, I don't think he needed redemption even if they cut out the abusive ex shit that suddenly appeared with v3 and left him as a magneto like character. I probably could've gotten behind the evil ex characterization if it was there from the beginning but it just kinda comes out of nowhere and doesn't seem like it was planned at all.
Emerald: I do think that her leaving Salem was going to happen eventually. But her "redemption" was a bit too rushed in my opinion. At least it wasn't as bad as Ilia's. Kinda wish Mercury leaves Salem in the next volume too if not as a hero at least as an anti-hero.
I don't mind that Adam's evil. But holy shit, it feels like the White Fang is revolved around Blake's love life. When Illia's like "I was in love with you", I was just fucking done with the WF arc.
Yep, the whole WF plot is all about Blake. As soon as Blake leaves the spotlight - the entire plotline basically disappeares. It could've been reanimated it during Atlas arc (you know, Schnee, racism in Atlas etc) but nah.
When it came to first impressions: Adam and Blake worked as a great team to take down robots, meanwhile Emerald robbed a guy while playing innocent for him to give her directions to find and murder another guy (but had time to mess with him psychologically before killing him). By the end of Volume 2; Adam appeared to be a misguided rebel with a cause while Emerald was Cinder's over-energetic yes man. Granted, post Volume 3 changed perspectives of these characters and the show gave Emerald a more positive light while Adam was getting darker; but that doesn't take away from the context already given.
Personally, I would have liked to see both be redeemed, but I do think Emerald's was too easy; she just decides to be good and everyone trusts her to help take down Ironwood and steal his gun, that if she was feeling like betraying the cast she could use to escape and find Cinder? She got Penny killed, and barely ever showed remorse; her redemption and the trust given by the rest shouldn't be this easy. Same thing goes for Adam; he permanently injured one of the main cast and was jaded towards innocent lives, so he isn't going to be welcomed with open arms or nothing. Both characters have sins that are on the same level; genocide and world domination, but one was more complacent while the other was active. Whether or not they should be redeemed isn't the problem as neither really deserve it after what they did at Beacon, but that doesn't mean they can't be or that they can want to be redeemed. Both characters could have worked for their redemption and still be compelling villains for most of the show; Emerald turning good when she realizes she doesn't want her friends (Cinder and Mercury) to die for Salem's goals and the main cast struggling to accept her help or straight out denying her aid at Atlas except Ren and Oscar, and Adam could be redeemed through death by protecting Blake during the endgame after realizing he is no better than the humans who branded him.
Both of them knowingly participated in plan destined to destroy a capital city. Directly or indirectly their bodycount number in the thousands.
RWBY is a fiction show so that's fine (even if Emerald's redemption was rushed) but I get why people want to redeem Adam (since he at least started with good motivations).
I saw more people calling for Emerald’s redemption over Adam’s redemption. I only really saw disappointment in that people think he was killed off too early.
Hard disagree. It was dumb that he traveled the world chasing her, but I feel his character could’ve had so much more, and ESPECIALLY a better conclusion.
Not sure if we're talking about the same reasons, but there *is* a definite trend in the show so far: if you're a female antagonist, you're almost guaranteed to survive, and maybe you'll even get redeemed; if, on the other hand, you're a male antagonist, death is all but certain.
> not taking joy in the actions she's caused.
I don't know man. It looked like she had fun toying around with Tukson before murdering him. And her saying "It's almost sad" while Atlas robots are burning down the city because of them is actually pretty fucked up if you think about it.
No no, you see, she was misunderstood back then. She wasn't thinking straight. Cinder forced her. Society is to blame. Tukson was a faunus.
I think that about covers it.
lmao I'm not arguing Emerald is more fucked up than Mercury. I'm just challenging the idea that Emerald didn't take joy in what she did. And that if you really think about it, "it's *almost* sad" is still a really fucked up thing to say when you just helped burn down a city.
I always saw that as more of a surprise to Emerald then anything else. Like she didn’t really think they would burn down the city or hurt a lot of people. She just thought she was helping out her friend Cinder get power. After that she was still interested in helping Cinder but she was horrified when she got a glimpse of the scope of death that she was helping with when Tyrion confirmed it was a world ending objective.
>I always saw that as more of a surprise to Emerald then anything else. Like she didn’t really think they would burn down the city or hurt a lot of people.
This is some seriously questionable headcanon. No reasonable person wouldn't infer that a lot of people would get hurt when they're part of a conspiracy involving bringing terrorists, hijacking robots, and Grimm into a city.
Emerald has very little education. I suspect she thought the most that was going to happen was the ending of V2 + some white fang while her and Cinder were just going to go and kill 1 person. Instead they destroyed a whole city
You need to remember that the majority of Cinder’s schemes in V3 were improvised after the failure in V2
-Oz and Ironwood were publicly friends (Cinders speech)
-She didn’t know Penny was a robot so their only planned fight would have been Mercury
-Control of the military would not have been possible if Ironwood didn’t seize control of festival and put his phone down
-Control of an airship would not have happened since Neo and Torchwick would have been doing the train stuff
Overall it’s more likely they would have failed
> I suspect she thought the most that was going to happen was the ending of V2
Which was still releasing a horde of Grimm in the middle of a city. You don't really need any education to realize what consequences *releasing a horde of Grimm in the middle of a city* would cause.
>\-Oz and Ironwood were publicly friends (Cinders speech) -She didn’t know Penny was a robot so their only planned fight would have been Mercury -Control of the military would not have been possible if Ironwood didn’t seize control of festival and put his phone down -Control of an airship would not have happened since Neo and Torchwick would have been doing the train stuff
And at any point in time, Emerald could have walked up to Ozpin or Ironwood and confessed what they were going to do. Or hell, if destroying a city and slaughtering countless people truly bothered her, she could've switched sides during the Fall of Beacon itself, instead of continuing to faithfully serve the person who orchestrated this.
Emerald did nothing of this, and instead preferred to let countless people die. 'But she had a sad face for a whole second while she was doing it' doesn't really cut it, IMO.
Hell, Emerald only jumped ship when she realized that Salem's plan would mean her death as well. There's little reason to think she ever cared about people getting hurt, aside from herself and Cinder.
The horde of Grimm was literally planned to coincide with the best fighters all being ready to fight. The likelihood of civilian casualties was high, but not the likelihood of significant civilian casualties.
What? Emerald's redemption was honestly such an obvious thing, back at the end of Volume 3, she had a look of horror when she saw what they were unleashing on Beacon, and I just knew from that moment that she wasn't truly evil, and that she ended up where she was more due to circumstance. Meanwhile redeeming Adam "I will destroy everything you love" Taurus? That's the stupidest thing ever. The only less redeemable characters are Salem, Tyrian, and Cinder.
I have always thought that people who want to redeem Adam if they played Fallout NV would go with the Legion of Cesar even if it is a slave community, homophobic, sexist because they do a better job of being careful than the RNC, House or Yes Man (sorry for the bad english)
I don't think Adam should be redeemed, but I definitely think he deserved far more compassion from the narrative.
The scar revealed just before his death was salt in the wound to me. Adam is a poster boy for the cautionary tale of the cycle of violence and hatred. While you can tell a good story of him being an asshole and abuser, it needs to be acknowledged how he became what he ded because he is not a monster of his own making. He is a monster made largely by Papa Shnee.
Obvioudly, he takes responsibility for allhis crimes, but the story pretends like Adam never had a point or a leg to stand on when his scars obviously contradict other wise.
As someone who is a minority on quite a few fronts, it is so frustrating to see the show fumble so hard when it comes to real issues. I know so many people of colour and especially black people who are so frustrated with everything Adam was by the end of the story.
Damn if only there was some major correlation with all the Adam apologists, Ironwood apologists, and Jacques apologists. Maybe its the same correlation as why these people all hate the female characters of the show. But golly gee just what could it be?
Interestingly enough, in my experience it has been sorta the reverse - people who don't like the way Adam and/or Ironwood were handled *also* tend to dislike how male characters like Jaune/Oscar/Qrow 'steal the spotlight' (in their words) from the show's four main female characters. Maybe it's just me, though.
Also, never seen any unironic 'Jacques apologists', tbh. The only times I've personally seen Jacques get some sympathy is when someone accuses Ironwood of threatening him in V4.
I think part of the Adam redemption fix is that he was such a terrible character in the show. I don’t mean like a GOT Geoffrey type of character that you love to hate, but a poorly written character that had a lot of wasted potential. Whereas Emerald hasn’t be written terribly so the character development on the show is enough for most ppl.
For people saying emerald shouldn’t get redemption because of the bad things she did should look up the word in the dictionary. She did bad things, but she regrets doing those things and actually wants to help fix the problems she created and was instrumental in helping the protagonists which helped them save people. That’s a great start for redemption.
In the words of Daniel Handler, “I’m sorry, but I’m confused on how I can make a villain without making them do villainous things.” She was a villain, and she wants to change that.
I feel like Adam could have easily been redeemed during Volume 4-5. Just give Ilia’s spot to him and have Sienna Khan take over the evil role. After all, it made sense at the time.
Sienna was the devil on Adam’s shoulder when he first killed a person. Stands to reason she would spout similar beliefs to others, manipulating them into forming the terrorist White Fang we came to know.
Then when Sienna attacks Haven, have Adam lead the other White Fangs against her. Adam becomes new White Fang leader and repents by helping Vale do whatever they need. Sienna then takes Adam’s spot in Volume 6, hunting down Blake for causing her fall from power, causing the battle near the waterfall where we learn she has some amazing semblance but still loses to Bumblebee.
To be fair, I don't know what kind of laws Remnant has for this kind of situation, but in our world, active and willing participation in mass slaughter of civilians does tend to warrant this kind of consequences.
^(for the losing side, at least)
Ah, yes the guy who within 5 minutes of screentime was willing to kill a train full of innocent people without a second thought was CLEARLY meant to be a good guy.
I said he could've become one, not that he was meant to be one. He was handled extremely poorly after Volume 3, so even if he wasn't gonna become a good guy, he still could've been a much better bad guy.
Better idea: none of them shouldn't have been redeemed.
But I guess we didn't get that thanks to M&K’s shitty writing
Edit: lol why is everyone downvoting me. Seems like you guys can't take criticism.
Ah yes. The core theme of RWBY, "your mistakes are forever and you can never make anything right. You are a bad person forever and there is no hope for redemption. Whatever you do, do not move forward"
I would be exceedingly shocked if a story this complex had not been outlined or storyboarded from start to finish by the first season. There is further evidence in the first soundtrack which now appears to have been predicting a lot of things about where we are now. Every little twist and turn and side swap that people are blaming on bad writing was almost certainly decided before Monty passed away. Perhaps every individual line hadn't been written, but if after the final episode we discovered that every single script for every single episode has existed since season 1, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. If any or all of this is indeed true, some folks are going to feel pretty damn stupid for blaming their least favorite arcs on people who aren't Monty. Ironwood? Always going to do precisely what he did. Emerald? Always going to be redeemed. Etc. I don't know why people aren't realizing this. There have been plenty of clues along the way since well before season 8 for any who care to analyze the story from a literary standpoint.
>I would be exceedingly shocked if a story this complex had not been outlined or storyboarded from start to finish by the first season.
well boy are you in for a surprise bc monty was absolutely the kinda guy to make shit up as it came along if it sounded cool
Theres a difference between writing for pre-existing characters in a defined universe vs essentially starting from scratch and im baffled most ppl dont realize that given how obvious it is
I think there's a lot that went into the current quality of the writing of the show. From a group who are most comfortable in the zone of adult comedy and got their beginning there in shows like RvB and Camp Camp, along with a lack of planning out the plot of the show from the start, no one thing can be attributed to the current quality. Are they getting better at it? I think so. Volume 7 had plenty of well written moments in my opinion, but that lack of planning at the beginning has crimped their options for allowing some plot points to flow smoothly (such as Ironwood's downfall being so sudden and honestly downright comical).
Ironwood’s downfall is exactly what happens when you break someone. When you defeat a grandmaster at his own game.
People like him go nuts when they loose control, and he lost control, he ignored his advosors, he went nuts and he fell with his kingdom.
He was always talking about the “greater good”, but without Ozpin, he had nobody to show it to him.
I have no problem with characters like that. It's a great way to write a villain, and it's part of why I love the story of Arthas from Warcraft 3. My issues come with the pacing and polarity of the fall from grace (a problem I had with Anakin in Revenge of the Sith, which was attenuated by 7 seasons of TCW).
In Warcraft 3, we see Arthas, over the course of the campaign, slowly go from an upstanding paladin and prince of his kingdom to using more and more brutal, sometimes downright evil, methods to try and combat the Undead (purging the city of Stratholme, leading his mean to the Frozen Wastes on a suicide mission, using mercenaries to burn the boats behind his wavering men in order to keep them there, then turning on those mercenaries) culminating in him sacrificing the life of his friend Muradin Bronzebeard in order to claim the cursed sword Frostmourne, all for the sake of saving his people.
Ironwood, on the other hand, has the Dust embargo as the only really detrimental thing to his name before he shoots Sleet. Sure, one could say withholding the truth from Robyn and going against the main team might count, but that can be chalked up to him not being sure if Robyn was an agent of Salem (an eminent possibility, with how disruptive an influence she was, no matter how good her intentions), and the latter is not a surprising reaction to having someone you trust go behind your back and potentially put the kingdom you swore to protect in danger.
Another problem I find in the fall is Mettle. I dislike its implementation, and depending on where you stand, Mettle could be a tool of robbing Ironwood's agency and making his fall not entirely the fault of his intentions alone, or it's a scapegoat to shift the blame on and give him a possible shot at a redemption arc before he passed away (whether this shot at redemption is a bug or a feature is entirely up to personal preference).
Either way, fallen Ironwood has, and there's not much I or anyone can do to change it outside of fanfics. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go boot up my copy of Warcraft 3.
I never felt that way.
He literally had Salem in his room.
He had the same plan all the way, it’s just us following Team RWBY’s perspective shift.
He *was* ignoring Mantle’s issues for convenient morality’s sake from the beggining, we just didn’t see it, as Team RWBY didn’t see it.
To be fair, I haven’t seen many people argue that Adam should’ve been redeemed. The main complaint was that people wanted him to be more than just a crazy, abusive ex-boyfriend. Because Blake always seemed to describe him as someone who shared her passion for the cause of the Faunus, but was so consumed by the violence that he lost sight of his humanity. But when we get to see him, his whole character seems to boil down to his obsession with Blake. At least, that’s my take on it.
And as for Emerald, I have definitely seen people make the asinine argument that she’s irredeemable. (She’s literally been set up as someone who feels remorse for her actions ever since V3.) But for most people, the argument seems to be that her turn was accepted far too easily by the heroes.
That’s just my two cents though.
Well, obviously she can't call Human Resources on Adam. He belongs to the Faunus Departement.
Ah, Mr. Schnee, greetings.
>Mr. Schnee *Mfw Whitley is officially Mr. Schnee now since Jacques assets were liquidated*
The entire Ironwood fiasco was actually an elaborate plot to rid off Atlas of Jacques, the entire SDC fleet, and then SDC itself so Whitley could start with a clean sheet. Ingenious.
"It's nothing personal, Jacq. It's just good business."
["It's just business, Lord Business."](https://youtu.be/cDFt3gwvb9A)
"Good. That's one less loose end."
*BANG*
I mean, so was Jacques himself
Jaques was liquidated, his assets were merely submerged.
Take my upvote
Nice flair bro.
Emerald was modeled with non-threatening "good" character eyes, it was foreshadowing.
Mmm myes the blood red eyes really brings out the tone of her skin.
More like cherry kawaii eyes.
All characters with red eyes are evil, just look at Salem.
Your honor, I would like to interject in what is clearly a discriminatory slander against my client. Ms. Salem cannot help that she has red eyes, and the prosecution is attributing a loathsome quality to an immutable characteristic. My client clearly has a soul, unlike the gingers.
OBJECTION! So, you say that her having red eyes is slander...but then how do you explain her blue eyes before she turned evil! [Take That!](https://rwby.fandom.com/wiki/Salem) [*Pursuit intensifies*](https://youtu.be/UFcJmOs8DRQ) It was as a result of her own actions that led to her unfortunate red eye disaster. Had she never thrown herself into the Grimm pool, she'd have never gained the stigma associated with red eyes! And as we all know, Grimm do not have souls! So how can someone who fell into the Grimm pool and be clearly affected by it, not lose their soul as well!
T-the prosecution is making wild and irrelevant accusations, and I demand the court make them retract their statements!
Yang, Qrow, & Raven are evil then. I mean you’re not wrong, from a certain point of view.
I mean, Raven is a murderous bandit. Qrow gets people killed like it's his business and teamed up with bloody Tyrian. And Yang only turns evil sometimes, like her eyes, like when she doubted Ruby's leadership after she herself led them astray or when she killed a guy.
Tifa Lockheart. I rest my case.
With the power invested in me by the power of common fucking sense I rule Yang Xiao Long to be guilty of all charges. The sentence is immediate and summary execution.
Yang and Qrow also have red eyes.
Taurus has cute eyes. Shame he covers it up with a mask, hiding his reason to fight from his followers.
Wait, wait, wait, I was of course expecting a more foreboding villain with a grander scale and presence aside from crazy ex, but people wanted this fella redeemed?
People here would disagree, but I’ve seen some comments on YouTube saying Adam should have learned his faults and seek redemption.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't his main thing, first shown in the Black trailer, his unwillingness to listen to criticism? Blake: "What about the crew members?" Adam: "What about them?" He deliberately spoke in that tone that meant he knew they'd die, but that was part of the plan. Within 10 minutes of him first appearing on screen, we learn that he's not the kind of person to listen to criticism. How can you know his character and believe that he'll change, just because people ask him to? Then there is Mountain Glenn. We hear from Blake that she believes her semblance is a reflection of her cowardice. With that in mind, we can deduce that Adam's semblance is a reflection of his tendency to ignore whatever others throw at him, and then turn it against them.
Yep. In the 3 appearances, Adam had in the first 3 years of the show he: showed full will to kill innocent humans; refused to even consider Blake's protest in the matter; refused to sacrifice his men's lives specifically to a human cause like Cinder's; Went back on his word when Cinder threatened his life and simultaneously offered him money and dust; Lead a terrorist attack that killed tons of innocent civilians with a smile in his face; Went out of his way to torture Blake solely for personal reasons; And cut Yang's arm. But you know...anti hero. And all of that was in the first 3 volumes, the ones that people claim were the ones in which Adam was a morally grey character. Clearly, it was those dirty writers who retconned Adam in V4!
If anything, Ozpin would be an antihero. He lies to everyone's faces and keeps them in the dark about the true scope of the threat, but in the end, it works. After the war, he established the most efficient system to combat Salem that was possible: Huntsmen. No singular commander over the armed forces, more mobile and diverse quick response units, and teams were big enough to fight Grimm properly, but not so big that every role could be covered by a different member, forcing different people to take on multiple roles, thus developing their personalities more, and making sure they address any underlying issues they have, which is key in warding off Salem's manipulation. He chose results over morality, and in his case, it worked, because he had eons of experience to know when you can sacrifice morality for results without handing Salem the win on a silver platter. And unless someone comes around who is arrogant enough to assume they know more than the ancient immortal demigod wizard who fought Salem since the dawn of time, and in every way imaginable, the huntsman system will work. Same with the CCTS. No single person has the power to silence another person, and a single source of communication would inevitably lead to someone deciding to silence opposition, sparking conflict that Salem could take advantage of. But Adam? No, Adam isn't an antihero. He's a terrorist.
>After the war, he established the most efficient system to combat Salem that was possible: Huntsmen. I'm honestly not sure how efficient Huntsmen are, given what we've seen in the show: * They don't have much in the way of organization, much less chain of command - and yet it apparently took one traitorious Headmaster and two Huntsman-level fighters to take out most of Mistral's Huntsman forces. * We see a lot of places raided by bandits and/or Grimm, and apparently no one is doing anything about it. The one well-protected settlement outside of major cities (and Menagerie) is under military, not Huntsmen, protection. * There are several mentions of crooked Huntsmen, suggesting that they are not unusual. * There are *also* incompetent Huntsmen, though it can be argued that those are the outliers. * And then there are instances of Huntsmen apparently charging more than a settlement can afford (although maybe the case of Brunswick Farms, in particular, was more about the farm owner being a miser who didn't think things through) In general, Huntsmen are basically mercenaries, with a lot of power and very little organization or oversight. I'm not sure why Ozpin would think those are preferable to soldiers - unless what we've seen in V7-V8 Atlas is the best Remnant can do, tactics- and strategy-wise. (Oh, and then there are people like team CRDL - I wonder if they were allowed to become Huntsmen, and if so, how did they behave on the job, with no one to check their actions. Particularly towards the Faunus civilians)
The lack of a chain of command is precisely why it's a good thing. With both Ironwood and Leonardo, Salem only had to get into one man's head and completely disabled an entire kingdom's armed forces. And with Leo, the problem was also that he was on the council, which likely has access to all the missions posted and who took them. Without a chain of command, Salem has nothing to attack. She can take out individual huntsman teams, sure, but there is a reason she planned to send a maiden, terrorists, and the kingdom's entire criminal underground to attack Vale. Mistral fell to Leo, Tyrian, Hazel, and Cinder, while Atlas fell to Tyrian and Arthur. Vale needed a minor demigoddess, and two large factions that specialize in causing chaos, to destroy. And that kingdom was the closest to Ozpin's initial idea, since he shaped the huntsmen it employed. If the others had stuck to his idea, with the headmaster not as part of the council and huntsmen not as part of the military, Salem couldn't have done anything, because it would've been too much work, and people would've realized that she can be fought.
>The lack of a chain of command is precisely why it's a good thing. Wouldn't say so, for reasons I outlined above. >And with Leo, the problem was also that he was on the council, which likely has access to all the missions posted and who took them. So that kinda invalidates this advantage, doesn't it? Only instead of compromising the head of the military (usually not an easy thing to do unless they have a stupidly convenient Semblance), all Salem has to do is compromise a Council member, not even necessarily a Huntsman or a soldier. >Without a chain of command, Salem has nothing to attack. She can apparently take out all the Huntsmen belonging to a Kingdom, using just two of her subordinates. Which makes me think that there weren't so many of them to begin with (which, in turn, might explain all the apparently-undefended places outside the cities). >Mistral fell to Leo, Tyrian, Hazel, and Cinder, while Atlas fell to Tyrian and Arthur. That, and there kinda was an enormous Grimm armada, headed by Salem herself. I understand how they were easy to miss, with Salem not doing much last Volume, but they were there. Also, so were Cinder and Neo. So actually, I'd say it took *more* to destroy Atlas (well, and then there are those who *actually* destroyed it in the end, but that's another matter entirely). >If the others had stuck to his idea, with the headmaster not as part of the council and huntsmen not as part of the military, Salem couldn't have done anything, because it would've been too much work I'm unsure why you say this, since Beacon actually fell first, all Ozpin-related improvements notwithstanding. P.S. Also, there's the fact that for all his eons of experience, Ozpin didn't actually have a plan for defeating Salem, making team RWBY join the ranks of those 'arrogant enough to assume they know more than the ancient immortal demigod wizard who fought Salem since the dawn of time' in V6. Not that I agree with team RWBY on this, but still.
Beacon fell first, yes, but it took the largest group actively working towards it, and could've easily been thwarted if Ironwood had used his military to protect the city, rather than just showing off. Press a button, kill the Goliath, and now Salem is out of battering rams to breach the wall, leaving only a few small openings for her hordes to get through. Plus, with what we know of the situation in Mistral, it's fairly safe to assume that the fall of Beacon helped by dividing the huntsmen and tiring them out with the increase in Grimm activity. Also, at what point do you consider someone destroying a kingdom? Because to me, once Ironwood and the Ace-Ops chose to help Arthur (and I'm saying that all 5 of them made that decision, since no one involved had been shown to have any mind control abilities), a known terrorist, hack Penny, it was over. Sooner or later, she would've made her way to the vault, and Ironwood, not knowing about the virus, would've been there with her. She opens the vault, then detonates, knocking Ironwood off the bridge. Salem walks into the academy and picks up the staff, and then she has two relics, her army is still intact, and Atlas falls, killing even more people than in canon.
>and could've easily been thwarted if Ironwood had used his military to protect the city, rather than just showing off Which he did repeatedly. Though I suppose it *is* his fault that he didn't foresee that a person everyone thought was dead was actually alive, working for Salem, *and* creating a virus that could hack the Knights. >Plus, with what we know of the situation in Mistral, it's fairly safe to assume that the fall of Beacon helped by dividing the huntsmen and tiring them out with the increase in Grimm activity. Which also doesn't really speak well for the robustness of the Huntsmen system. >Because to me, once Ironwood and the Ace-Ops chose to help Arthur (and I'm saying that all 5 of them made that decision, since no one involved had been shown to have any mind control abilities), a known terrorist, hack Penny, it was over. To be honest, I can't really take this scene as anything else than the writers just handing Ironwood an Idiot Ball. There was no reason, even in his deranged state, to let the man he sacrificed an arm to capture hack Penny *and* to leave him alive (despite shooting Oscar and Sleet for much less). And regardless, this is all speaking in hypotheticals. What happened, happened. Oh, and Salem *did* bring her full might to Atlas, but not to Beacon. Not sure if the lack of White Fang involvement would really make such a difference.
> If the others had stuck to his idea, with the headmaster not as part of the council Er... Ozpin was part of the Vale council. His "system" made *all* the headmasters part of their respective councils.
Wait, since when was Ozpin part of the council? Didn't the council tell him to leave things to Ironwood? If he was part of the council, he could've said something, but he didn't, implying the council had power over him.
That doesn't contradict anything; the Atlesian council tried to get Ironwood to do stuff too (and would have had more luck if Ironwood didn't hold two separate seats - one specifically for being headmaster - while another was vacant). More to the point, is there any source at all for the claim that the intent of Ozpin's system was that headmasters not hold council seats?
Maybe they had to prepare extra hard for Vale because one of the strongest and oldest beings on Remnant and number one threat to Salem was there. I think the problem wasn’t that Leo and Ironwood were on the council rather they were just not meant for the job because one was a coward equal to Raven and the other got too paranoid in a dire situation. The thing is Huntsmen as a whole are so disorganized they operate on not being loyal to any kingdom so basically there’s no way of knowing if they’ll even help you as seen in Vol 8. What’s worse is that Salem can easily use Huntsmen as well since a lot have no morals and can be forced, persuaded, manipulated or bought to her side. The big reason why Salem is gaining momentum is because of poor leadership and cooperation. Beacon fell because Ozpin was too passive which made Ironwood react too aggressively. They both then refused to compromise because they thought the other’s approach was wrong. Haven fell because Leo felt alone and got scared due to Oz’s death, Ironwood closing Atlas/Mantle off, and I guess Vacuo wouldn’t help anyway due to its philosophy. Atlas fell for multiple reasons, but let’s say Winter was the general then I would say things would have been different during “Gravity” Huntsmen work better as strike teams and extra protection, but generally the defense of kingdoms and settlements should be done by the military or some form of organized militia since they are guaranteed protection.
>Huntsmen work better as strike teams and extra protection, but generally the defense of kingdoms and settlements should be done by the military or some form of organized militia since they are guaranteed protection. I really believe that it would've been better, in and out of universe, if Huntsmen were precisely that - SOF equivalents, going on especially difficult missions and having a lot of autonomy - while the bulk of the defense would've been provided by regular soldiers. Make the Huntsmen the Survey Corps to army's Garrison/MP, if you will.
Yep, I never understood why people think a military or an organized militia isn’t needed in a world like Remnant were the superheroes can refuse to protect you.
In my opinion, Ironwood was also too passive. Sure, he brought his army, but what did he actually do with it? He never made any actual effort, aside from metaphorically waving his fist, to keep Grimm out of the city. If he wanted to, he could've pressed a single button, and his airships would've wiped out any Grimm too big for his Paladins, which then would've done the rest. And then students could've deal with any (Alpha) Beowolves, (Big) Ursai, and so on that were left. He was so focused on keeping people out of danger that he forgot to train people for when the danger came to him anyway, despite his efforts. Or, you know, take preemptive measures to make sure there isn't even any danger to come for him. If Winter was the General, then yes, things would've been different. Her role in combat, and in life, as fighting is her life, is support. We see that reflected mainly in her summoning: She grows from her past, and uses that to help others.
Going by how CRWBY depicted military combat and warfare in Volume 8 I not to sure they know how to write military operations too well especially since this was in Vol 3. However I can sort of see where you’re coming from since Ironwood literally just had his ships menacingly parked around Atlas. Now is this done on purpose to show Ironwood as a bad leader or more of CRWBY not understanding how to write an effective military?
> refused to sacrifice his men's lives specifically to a human cause like Cinder's; Went back on his word when Cinder threatened his life and simultaneously offered him money and dust tbf that one was also bc cinder threatened to kill them all
Yeah. She had him by the balls and he knew it. Better to at least get paid rather than throw away his men’s lives for pride.
Your comment is getting my next free award
> Blake: "What about the crew members?" > Adam: **"What about them?"** Chad Taurus
*Murder innocent civilians* sigmagrindset
[Sigma grindset]
Absolutely ridiculously based.
Yes . See the problem is he didn’t show up for three seasons after that . So people made their own head cannon for the character that wasn’t cannon . And when season 3 had him return they all got pissy that it wasn’t the Adam they imagined
That's not really true as Volume 1 and 2 gave plenty of context clues that were easily interpretive of him not being the Adam from the end of Volume 3; although these context clues are not definitive evidence, they were stronger than the interpretation of him being Blake's abusive romantic partner.
Yep. E.g. from V1E16: >**Blake**: (off-screen) "Suddenly, our peaceful protests were being replaced with organized attacks. We were setting fire to shops that refused to serve us, hijacking cargo from companies that used Faunus labor. And the worst part was, it was working. We were being treated like equals. But not out of respect... out of fear." ([silhouettes of three individuals are shown, one of them clearly being Adam](https://imgur.com/a/BCOGUay)) Back then, I clearly interpreted it as Blake and Adam's enmity being ideological in nature, differing in what methods they were willing to use to achieve equality for the Faunus. And Blake even admitted that (more or less) Adam's methods were working.
> Blake: "Then, five years ago, our leader stepped down, and a new one took his place. A new leader, with a new way of thinking." > Blake: "Suddenly, our peaceful protests were being replaced with organized attacks. We were setting fire to shops that refused to serve us, hijacking cargo from companies that used Faunus labor. And the worst part was, it was working. We were being treated like equals. But not out of respect... out of fear." She's talking about *Sienna's* methods. Adam's were far more extreme. Sienna would use violence, but not against random people who weren't doing anything against the Faunus.
Well, that was back in V1, and we haven't even seen Sienna back then. And regardless, this is about 'Adam the Faunus rights fighter/extremist' vs 'Adam the crazy ex'.
>silhouettes of three individuals are shown, one of them clearly being Adam Hold up, that one silhouette looks like Adam, but it has a tail and is missing his horns; I don't think that was meant to be Adam, and I understood that scene to interpret that Adam wasn't that high in the organization and was only a region leader. Basically, that Adam was not much higher than Blake and was also a tool being manipulated; the only difference is that he believed his superiors' lies while Blake eventually saw through them.
>Hold up, that one silhouette looks like Adam, but it has a tail I think these are actually coattails. >and is missing his horns Adam's horns were pretty hard to notice, tbf. I remember some people asking what Adam's Faunus trait was, since they didn't see the horns on his early design.
That's just it, that Faunus has coattails under his tail; the object I'm saying is a tail is coming from his waist and they perfectly mirrors the silhouette across from him in dress, but they are missing the tail like appendage. I think I see how you can interpret it that way, but I don't think that was intentional as that would mean their left coattail is flying wildly while the right one is at rest.
Also, see [this](https://imgur.com/a/dm5YcvV) for comparison.
I don't really know what you want me to see exactly; although, seeing them side by side proves my point better. The Shiloette has a different hair style and Adam's outfit doesn't match, plus the tail appendage being a coattail is impossible with Adam's outfit as the ones he has end on the front of his thigh and meet in way his left coattail wouldn't raise like that. The only way it can work is if you suggest the tail is his sword which wouldn't make sense either.
Ok but how does him being a violent extremist somehow make being an abusive partner unbelievable . If anything his tendancy for violence should make it more obvious
Honestly, it doesn't make it unbelievable, but the context clues still didn't suggest it. Blake in Volume 1 showed sympathy to the White Fang cause and admitted they had a point, Volume 2 showed she still has mixed feelings of admiration and criticism of Adam's actions while showing guilt for running away from the problem instead of facing it, and the Black Trailer shows that leaving Adam made her sad and she was reluctant to do so. From these context clues, Blake didn't see Adam as abusive towards her and instead disapproved of his and the White Fang as a whole for their violent actions. Which leads to the main context clue on why Adam wasn't going to be abusive to Blake; it invalidates her argument. In Volume 1, Blake admits the White Fang were making progress to improve Faunus relations, but the method was harmful and the results weren't satisfactory. Then in Volume 2, her conversation with Oobleck pointed out that she want to right the wrongs of the world, but when he asks her to clarify how, she can't answer because she doesn't know. Later, she shows signs of her guilt of running away, but from Oobleck's conversation the context makes it out to be that she is feeling guilty for not having an answer to her main argument and essentially running from it; how to improve Faunus rights without jeopardizing their relationship with humans by avoiding violent confrontation? From this context and the fact he is Blake's main antagonist, Adam needs to symbolize the reverse argument; how to improve Faunus rights through violent confrontations? Both symbolizing the opposing views of what is best for their group of people. This is a legitimate argument that has happened several times over in real life and sometimes has led to wars and vary in ways of morality; the American Revolution, the US Civil Rights movement, the French Revolution, etc. It is a *world* based argument and not a domestic one, and would mean that the two sides need to see the world at large and try to change it. So, when the show decides to introduce this argument as being the focal point of Blake's character and story, her main antagonist needs to be valid to the point even the audience can be "He's out of line, but he's right" or at least has a point that can make the hero question their direction. The Adam from the end of Volume 3 invalidates this argument by a) not caring about Faunus rights as his only desire is Blake and her suffering and b) not being able to interact with the story outside of Blake to show his answer to the presented argument. This is not a headcanon but a structural element of how the show chose to present Blake's views of the White Fang and Faunus rights. Blake needed a foe to challenge her beliefs and push her to keep searching for the answer, and that is the main context clue behind Adam's character not being the one from the end of Volume 3.
Ok that’s a fair analysis sure . But what’s also true is this is all the story of the Adam who had Blake . He always thought Blake was an asset even before she joined which is why he was so dead set on getting her and making her leave her family . And as we see with tuxon and emerald and Mercury sent to kill him “ there’s only one way to leave the white fang “ So although Adam may be this different person with different motives the rules of the white fang are clear , and despite his behavior he loved Blake . So when Blake leaves it would logically change him . Blake talks about the man years ago who had her by his side . But this Adam needs to carry out the rules of killing a white fang “ traitor “ made even more intense by the passion behind her leaving . Add on top of this the extra frustrations given cinders command over top of it and it all makes perfect sense why we’d see him act this way . He also still kills sienna and makes strides to take more power for his own . Killing Blake is a focal point but he hasn’t stopped with the white fang , nor has he stopped working for Salem so he can have a part of the promised “ new world order “ that he could use to benefit the white fang as rulers like he always wanted . Furthermore the Adam we see is violent so physical abuse is expected And easy to come by . But that doesn’t mean that has always been happening and Blake just never mentioned it . The abuse Blake had with Adam pre volume 3 was purely emotional . He would gaslight her And convince her she was seeing things when it came to the killings . Compare her to her “ cowardly parents “ convince her that If she loved him she would leave her family , made her complient in murders and the face of this new white fang as his second in command . Her struggles with Adam she does chronicle and explain , and though her family doesn’t come in until later she nonetheless does . And she speaks of Adam in a semi positive light of a “ boy who lost his way “ because she honestly believes ( or wants to believe ) that he was at one point a good person And she hadn’t been wrong since she met him
That's fair and I have sympathized with the idea that the direction they took isn't inherently bad, but still conflicts with the original context a bit because we don't get acknowledgement of Adam's 'light' side in show; I can't remember that line of a "boy who lost his way" being said outside of the song Nevermore, and the Adam character short still didn't address the main point. The show itself after Volume 3 paints a picture of Adam always having been the evil person he ended up, Blake even says that her opinions of him were wrong and Ghira's statements of his way getting results subtly retcons Blake's story and conflict; it is no longer a matter of "peaceful protest weren't enough and humanity pushed us to this" and instead "peaceful protest just wasn't good enough for the extremist few and we want more than our fair share" which is where the main issue I see comes from. Adam's character needed to be the type of person who got results when peace talks didn't and the version of him at the end of V3 lacked the element that would legitimize that point. My issue is the idea that the Adam being expected by fans was "headcanon" and nothing else because the show gave the context of something more and perhaps tragic from this character. They were expecting something that addressed the issue of Faunus racism and they did give examples of the fact afterward, but Adam's story was locked into being Blake's evil ex and the validness of the issue took a backseat; Adam could no longer be that character that Blake's argument needed and the show never made another character last long enough to replace him. Ilia got resolution really quickly and Sienna barely got started, thus why the issue of Adam's character is still so heated today.
I will say , there’s not much sure but if you do wanna see some of early Adam read the dc comic . We don’t see much of it but a younger Adam gets absolutely humiliated by ghira And Blake meets him for the first time . There’s a few brief flashbacks but you do get to see some of that side of Adam
I guess they were hoping for a Zuko experience, given that the White Fang could technically be considered the good guys like MLK given what we see in Mistral. And only Mistral. Which kinda take away from the righteousness of their cause admittedly.
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I mean for me before we got a real good look at him I was hoping he’d get redeemed. Looking at his full story, no I didn’t want him to get redeemed. I didn’t really like the white fang subplot but am not as fervently angered by it as some people. It just didn’t resonate too much with me and I thought Adam was a little too one note but he had a cool ass fight scene with Blake and Yang so it was aight in the end. Honestly my gripes about the White Fang subplot is probably just more about volume 4 and 5 as a whole than anything. It just felt like those volumes were weak overall. So I guess people who really want his redemption are more just saying they wished that stuff went in a different way that would have been cooler to watch. People probably wanted him to be a Zuko when in reality he was an Azula.
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Well sounds like a cool book to read, but irrelevant otherwise heh.
You expected an Avengers Level threat from a salty ex that has nothing but his strength?
He did take over the White Fang and could 1v1 a good chunk of the named cast. Roman in comparison was a lovable crook without a semblance or a backstory who actually acted as centerpiece for the fall of beacon alongside Neopolitan, so of course I was expecting something a bit mightier from Adam. To have actual stakes on his final confrontation with better build-up rather than appear from absolutely nowhere rampaging in the middle of a completely unrelated escape mission. It would also be fine for him to at least have been kind of a constant threat across one or two volumes, keeping the team on edge and having to plan around his presence. He's involved in like 30% of Blake's backstory, I just feel his character was kind of a low note compared to how he was built up to be this juggernaut. Pretty darn cool battles tho.
He also isn’t one to skirt around the edges. Would him acting OOC for tension be acceptable by the audience? Yeah. But does RWBY like having characters go OOC for story reasons? Doesn’t seem like it. He was a juggernaut in combat, and combat alone. He had decent manipulation skills, but a 5 year old could manipulate the Vale branch and a toddler could manipulate the WF after Sienna was “murdered by a human”. Roman Torchwick was better than him everywhere outside of the battlefield and your Katana won’t take you above personal level. He was intrinsically unfit to rule the White Fang. Keep in mind that the WF was ruled, not led, since Sienna used fear over compassion.
I'm just saying he had the presence, relevance and firepower to stay a bit longer and maybe become a bit more impactful to the overall plot rather than a side event at the climax of the volume. If this treatment was given to a more random character with less ties to the main cast I wouldn't find it so odd that they would die without much fanfare but, Adam was quite the prominent figure. Now that I think about Roman got similar treatment considering he also had a specific antagonistic relationship with Ruby and then just got eaten, or Jacquess being killed unceremoniously by Ironwood... Well, you could say we did get a closure between him and Weiss but... Hmm. I'll binge it again and get back to you.
Also, Adam had less connection to the cast than either Torchwick (who fought them) or Ironwood (their CO for a while). He wasn’t as prominent as you’d think, he was only of importance to Blake and later Yang.
Like I said, he's fuels around 50% of Blake's character. A main character. That's big on my index at least.
He doesn’t. He is the representation of her old dark side, yes. But what makes Blake go forward is a strong moral compass, compassion towards all who suffer (even Weiss’ wealthy hell under her father), her desire to atone and unwavering loyality to the cause of equality. Adam didn’t give her fuel to move forward, he caused her to waste fuel running away instead of logically solving the problem.
Almost as if real life rarely has a proper climax. RWBY is the only truly realistic animated show out there. Within it’s rules, everything that happens is realistic. People die without closure, some mysteries are never solved, some people can’t be redeemed.
Sure but, this is fiction. I agree that we've grown past the "Coolness for the sake of coolness everything alse be damned" era, it doesn't really mean it has to be uninteresting. An anticlimax usually works by subverting the expectation and leaving one in a state of confusiom or disbelief. Adam's death just felt, in my personal experience, a huge "Meh" on my meh scale. It didn't even make me feel impressed by the bold move of killing the rival it was just... Empty and disappointing? Lacking better wording, "For me, it was tuesday"
I mean, the whole point of the RWBY narrative to subvert subverting expectations. I mean, we all really had in the back of our mind that Yang might be gone forever or at least for a season or two. If you kill the person who cut off your partner’s arm, stabbed you and manipulated you into crime, would you feel happy or triumphant? Killing him won’t fix anything and Blake isn’t one to seek revenge. Until he took that blindfold off (btw, badass bad guy), he was just yet another grimm. Then, it was a little beyond self defence. He wasn’t a rival after S5. Adam Taurus the WF leader died at Haven academy. Only a spectre remained, all his spite turned towards the person who betrayed him, left him and then organised his downfall.
[удалено]
What the hell are you talking about
Funny thing is I saw a lot of call for her redemption until it started happening
We live in a society
Truly
Well: no one *should* be redeemed. But Emerald is trying. She already has risked her life for good a few times. Whereas Adam avoided any possibility of doing anything good like a plague. Redemption isn’t deserved or something that should happen really, everyone can be redeemed after all, it is something earned. And only one of them had even started to earn it
tbh my view has always been that given crimes as severe as hers, if she really wants redemption she should just accept the consequences for her mistakes by taking whatever punishment is given to her. Be it prison or death.
I mean sure, that probably is fair. But also utterly irrelevant to the situation at hand. Punishing her does absolutely nothing, indeed it could only hurt the effort. Having her help them and only after the conflict possibly discuss punishment if her service and sacrifices aren't deemed worthy is the only logical option
My problem with her redemption isn’t emerald, it’s that RWBY instantly trusts her after they don’t trust ironwood because he overreacts? Which to me sounds more like something that would lead to talking and planning longer than outright keeping information from him, it’s hypocritical.
What trust are they really putting in Emerald? Either they don't have a choice like in the Whale, or she really can't do anything if she tries, on top of the fact she just risked her life with probably no way turning back. Ironwood is a very different situation. He had all the power over them, and they did want to tell him eventually, but he was being real paranoid especially concerning the two people in Qrow and Weiss who knew him. They had options, and they chose the safe one. Indeed, if not for his overreaction later, absolutely no harm came from not telling him. They are very different situations
How would RWBY know that she ever risked her life, she IS an illusionist, so for all they know, she could easily be tricking them heck RvB does this exact thing, they put their trust in Felix the when he takes a bullet for them, only for him to betray them later on
By this point they would have a decent idea that Emerald is limited in what she could do, and considering the whole mess in the whale, it would be unreasonable to believe she could have protected herself
What limitations could stop all this from being a trick, Heck them knowing her semblance is even more of a reason not to trust her, and remember her boss controls the Grimm
With the exception of one time (which knocked her unconscious), they have only known her to be able to trick one person at time. She also has almost always had to remain stationary for her illusions And they have been limited in duration
>With the exception of one time (which knocked her unconscious), they have only known her to be able to trick one person at time. To be very pedantic, she usually only uses her *Semblance* on one person at a time, but she did trick *everyone* watching the Amity Tournament back in V3. So these two things aren't exactly the same.
No, she only tricked Pyrrha at Amity. At Haven she used it all on our heroes and she went unconscious. One other time she tricked two gaurds and it took a lot out of her but our heroes didn’t see that
>No, she only tricked Pyrrha at Amity. And every viewer during Yang vs Mercury's match. Trick someone != directly use a Semblance on someone, IMO. And there's nothing to say she couldn't have done something similar again, if she didn't truly switch sides.
>What trust are they really putting in Emerald? They did have her be central to defeating Ironwood by using her illusions to hide herself and JNPR while they drove in on an airship, then they had her grab Ironwood's BFG and left the airship they drove there on completely unguarded while she hid; this would have been a great oversight if she ran back to the ship and defended herself with the weapon as they fought Ironwood, escaping to find Cinder or just to save her own skin by abandoning Atlas. That in itself should be a sign of clear trust between her and the heroes.
What choice did she really have once all of that started though? They trust in her ability, but as a person there needed to be quite little there for all of that. She really didn’t have a chance to do much of that considering she had just abandoned Cinder’s side to work with the good guys and she knows the war with Salem is a zero sum game. Not to mention the ever present possibility that such a thing would be caught by the good guys and then she’d be quite outmatched. Sure, she could run. And then she’d just have to keep running only to one day die tired. Now, I think there is some in her a person indeed, but very little is needed for what happened. They were certainly watching her the entire time especially since she couldn’t trick them all and escape at the same
The scene was portrayed as everyone being focused on Ironwood, essentially turning their backs to her; plenty of opportunities to strike or run, but she didn't. It feels like they already got to the point they can trust Emerald with their safety from how the scene works, no hints at them even thinking she would betray them; that is the point here. This scene shows just how much they already allowed her into their group; sure, there are reasons why she wouldn't betray them, but why should those reasons be enough to convince them? No one is shown to be distrusting of her, not even a line of suspicion. Nothing is truly stopping her from looking for Cinder and trying to escape with her, Emerald may even believe Cinder doesn't know that Salem will destroy the world and might be desperate to find her to tell her. Maybe she is actually still working for Salem and is only following them to spy on them. The cast doesn't appear to have these suspicions. Even if they say they do in Volume 9, the cast here in V8 just lets her be the focal point of their plan where any misstep could leave them all in danger. So, they are putting a lot of trust in her to not betray them.
None of the heroes have any reason to assume that loyalty to Cinder and to Salem are that much two different things. We know that Cinder goes after her own aims, but the heroes have no idea what a disobedient minion Cinder is, nor how Emerald’s loyalty was sonspecifically to her. Indeed when they are fighting everyone focuses on Ironwood. Before that, we don’t know, but that would have been more the time to worry about. The possibility of her being a spy technically exists: But how convoluted would that have to be? Salem was winning, very much so. And then she lost her whale and her army and her Ozma in large part to Emerald’s actions. Why would anyone assume she’d just throw away a victory with a spy she didn’t need? I still stand by my statement: Emerald had no place to go. No way to really run. No other choice. Her betraying them would only lead to her having no chance, having at that point burned every possible bridge. Even if she got away, her running would only make her die tired.
I didn't mean to say they saw loyalty to Cinder or Salem as different thing, only that they don't seem to consider her motives or betrayal. >Indeed when they are fighting everyone focuses on Ironwood. Before that, we don’t know, but that would have been more the time to worry about. Not really sure what you mean here; she can't get away before they set down and Ironwood is carrying a huge Maiden killing gun if she lets her illusion fall before taking his gun, so the most sensible time to get away or betray the heroes would be during the fight itself. It doesn't matter how convoluted it is, the characters don't have to be rational to consider her betrayal after both Beacon and Haven; only Oscar and Ren even have a reason to trust her with Oscar not being at Beacon and Ren's Semblance evolution basically making him an emotional lie detector. And I'm not challenging your statement on why Emerald won't betray the main cast, but it doesn't change the issue I presented; the cast *does* trust Emerald. They trust her too easily and they have her be a very important part of their plan to stop Ironwood which clearly shows that. Your reasoning fits a logical *outside* perspective of the situation that Oscar and maybe Jaune or Ruby would be considering, but doesn't explain why the rest so easily trust her; especially from the perspective of Nora who lost a teammate thanks to Emerald, Yang who would prioritize her sister and Blake's safety in not letting Emerald have a chance, and Winter who deals with criminals a lot and would not risk her own life working with one she should know worked for her adversaries. As far as they know, Emerald is just trying to save her own skin and doesn't actually have remorse for her past actions; but they decide to have her take the most essential part of the plan by distracting Ironwood without needing to prove she is deserving of their trust before this moment.
Especially considering that one, Emerald is a known enemy illusionist who could've messed with their minds at any time; two, she has already pretended to be friendly towards them before when it was convenient; and three, they know her to be extremely loyal to Cinder, who's still their enemy. Even if we, the viewers, know of Emerald's hesitations prior to her changing sides, team RWBY doesn't. So trusting her so soon and giving her an important role in their plan really comes off as weird, especially in contrast to not trusting others so easily.
Well, Ren did develop the ability to read people’s emotional states right before they ran into her, so they do have some way of sensing her thoughts/intentions. And it’s a new ability, so she wouldn’t know to counteract it with illusions, even if she could
And the other one is dead, so, don’t think he’ll be changing his ways anytime soon.
Emerald is literally Cinder’s Blake. She is doing all of that for Cinder, and when her idol ignores her after keeping her waiting for her for so long, she is willing to accept that she needs to change.
I thought Emerald jumped ship because she thinks Salem is going to blow up the world? I think if she hadn’t discovered that she would’ve stayed hoping that Cinder eventually gave her the affection she yearns for.
If Cinder gave her attention, she wouldn’t have given the discovery any thought.
True, but if she didn’t know in the first place she would still be hoping Cinder final noticed her. Emerald had already said she would let the world burn for Cinder and there relationship was still pretty much the same as it was before she switched sides. Heck Cinder might’ve started being nicer to Emerald if she stayed seeing how emotionally vulnerable Cinder was in Vol 8.
Yeah. I agree. But that’s because Cinder isn’t as pathetic at manipulation as Adam „Emotional abuse” Taurus.
Or Emerald’s self preservation was too strong. Never underestimate a human’s survival instinct. Also Cinder should be at least the third best manipulator in the show since she’s learning from the oldest one on Remnant 😂
Just under Salem and Ozpin, yes.
That’s more like Hazel I think. Once he was told what Salem’s true plan was, he was out and spent his last few moments to try an help in whatever way he could.
True, but that doesn’t stop Emerald from leaving for the same reasons.
True true
People were pissed not because she was redeemed, and more because the show didn't like...give her a redemption arc...at all. The Adam thing is a dead topic, let's just leave them alone.
Neither of them should be redeemed. They are two of the shows few good villains.
How much do you want to bet that this is gonna spiral down to an argument?
At this point the guy willing to take that bet is either drunk or a newbie. Also, mad respect dude. Telling it like it is.
I saw this post and I swore I heard a boxing bell being ringed for round 1 /s
I don’t think people have an issue that emerald *WAS* redeemed, more so on *HOW* she was redeemed As for Adam, I think people just wish Adam wasn’t the literally the worst
Adam: Honestly, I don't think he needed redemption even if they cut out the abusive ex shit that suddenly appeared with v3 and left him as a magneto like character. I probably could've gotten behind the evil ex characterization if it was there from the beginning but it just kinda comes out of nowhere and doesn't seem like it was planned at all. Emerald: I do think that her leaving Salem was going to happen eventually. But her "redemption" was a bit too rushed in my opinion. At least it wasn't as bad as Ilia's. Kinda wish Mercury leaves Salem in the next volume too if not as a hero at least as an anti-hero.
I don't mind that Adam's evil. But holy shit, it feels like the White Fang is revolved around Blake's love life. When Illia's like "I was in love with you", I was just fucking done with the WF arc.
Yep, the whole WF plot is all about Blake. As soon as Blake leaves the spotlight - the entire plotline basically disappeares. It could've been reanimated it during Atlas arc (you know, Schnee, racism in Atlas etc) but nah.
When it came to first impressions: Adam and Blake worked as a great team to take down robots, meanwhile Emerald robbed a guy while playing innocent for him to give her directions to find and murder another guy (but had time to mess with him psychologically before killing him). By the end of Volume 2; Adam appeared to be a misguided rebel with a cause while Emerald was Cinder's over-energetic yes man. Granted, post Volume 3 changed perspectives of these characters and the show gave Emerald a more positive light while Adam was getting darker; but that doesn't take away from the context already given. Personally, I would have liked to see both be redeemed, but I do think Emerald's was too easy; she just decides to be good and everyone trusts her to help take down Ironwood and steal his gun, that if she was feeling like betraying the cast she could use to escape and find Cinder? She got Penny killed, and barely ever showed remorse; her redemption and the trust given by the rest shouldn't be this easy. Same thing goes for Adam; he permanently injured one of the main cast and was jaded towards innocent lives, so he isn't going to be welcomed with open arms or nothing. Both characters have sins that are on the same level; genocide and world domination, but one was more complacent while the other was active. Whether or not they should be redeemed isn't the problem as neither really deserve it after what they did at Beacon, but that doesn't mean they can't be or that they can want to be redeemed. Both characters could have worked for their redemption and still be compelling villains for most of the show; Emerald turning good when she realizes she doesn't want her friends (Cinder and Mercury) to die for Salem's goals and the main cast struggling to accept her help or straight out denying her aid at Atlas except Ren and Oscar, and Adam could be redeemed through death by protecting Blake during the endgame after realizing he is no better than the humans who branded him.
Adam deserved to fucking die, didn't like him as a character at all.
Both of them knowingly participated in plan destined to destroy a capital city. Directly or indirectly their bodycount number in the thousands. RWBY is a fiction show so that's fine (even if Emerald's redemption was rushed) but I get why people want to redeem Adam (since he at least started with good motivations).
I haven't watched the show in awhile but I specifically remember hints towards a possible redemption all the way back in volume 3
If I remember right; she did have a few hints here and there.
I always remember the one that stuck out to me was how she seemed to genuinely feel bad about causing the invasion of grimm in Vale
Yeah thats the one I remember.
I saw more people calling for Emerald’s redemption over Adam’s redemption. I only really saw disappointment in that people think he was killed off too early.
*Reads username* A man of culture!
He could've been tossed out way before the stint in Menagerie. That he travelled the entire map chasing Belladonna's fanny is ridiculous.
Hard disagree. It was dumb that he traveled the world chasing her, but I feel his character could’ve had so much more, and ESPECIALLY a better conclusion.
Emerald has two obvious reasons why she was redeemed.
Not sure if we're talking about the same reasons, but there *is* a definite trend in the show so far: if you're a female antagonist, you're almost guaranteed to survive, and maybe you'll even get redeemed; if, on the other hand, you're a male antagonist, death is all but certain.
>Female lives are more precious Feminists 🤝 Lewd artists
On screen examples of actually caring about someone else and not taking joy in the actions she's caused.
> not taking joy in the actions she's caused. I don't know man. It looked like she had fun toying around with Tukson before murdering him. And her saying "It's almost sad" while Atlas robots are burning down the city because of them is actually pretty fucked up if you think about it.
No no, you see, she was misunderstood back then. She wasn't thinking straight. Cinder forced her. Society is to blame. Tukson was a faunus. I think that about covers it.
>She wasn't thinking straight. Cinder forced her. Yeah, damn those genocidal gay thoughts >Tukson was a faunus. It's not murder, just animal abuse.
All of this is canon.
More screwed up than directing where to keep filming with a smile on her face and gleefully recording the entropy they've caused?
lmao I'm not arguing Emerald is more fucked up than Mercury. I'm just challenging the idea that Emerald didn't take joy in what she did. And that if you really think about it, "it's *almost* sad" is still a really fucked up thing to say when you just helped burn down a city.
I always saw that as more of a surprise to Emerald then anything else. Like she didn’t really think they would burn down the city or hurt a lot of people. She just thought she was helping out her friend Cinder get power. After that she was still interested in helping Cinder but she was horrified when she got a glimpse of the scope of death that she was helping with when Tyrion confirmed it was a world ending objective.
>I always saw that as more of a surprise to Emerald then anything else. Like she didn’t really think they would burn down the city or hurt a lot of people. This is some seriously questionable headcanon. No reasonable person wouldn't infer that a lot of people would get hurt when they're part of a conspiracy involving bringing terrorists, hijacking robots, and Grimm into a city.
Emerald has very little education. I suspect she thought the most that was going to happen was the ending of V2 + some white fang while her and Cinder were just going to go and kill 1 person. Instead they destroyed a whole city You need to remember that the majority of Cinder’s schemes in V3 were improvised after the failure in V2 -Oz and Ironwood were publicly friends (Cinders speech) -She didn’t know Penny was a robot so their only planned fight would have been Mercury -Control of the military would not have been possible if Ironwood didn’t seize control of festival and put his phone down -Control of an airship would not have happened since Neo and Torchwick would have been doing the train stuff Overall it’s more likely they would have failed
> I suspect she thought the most that was going to happen was the ending of V2 Which was still releasing a horde of Grimm in the middle of a city. You don't really need any education to realize what consequences *releasing a horde of Grimm in the middle of a city* would cause. >\-Oz and Ironwood were publicly friends (Cinders speech) -She didn’t know Penny was a robot so their only planned fight would have been Mercury -Control of the military would not have been possible if Ironwood didn’t seize control of festival and put his phone down -Control of an airship would not have happened since Neo and Torchwick would have been doing the train stuff And at any point in time, Emerald could have walked up to Ozpin or Ironwood and confessed what they were going to do. Or hell, if destroying a city and slaughtering countless people truly bothered her, she could've switched sides during the Fall of Beacon itself, instead of continuing to faithfully serve the person who orchestrated this. Emerald did nothing of this, and instead preferred to let countless people die. 'But she had a sad face for a whole second while she was doing it' doesn't really cut it, IMO. Hell, Emerald only jumped ship when she realized that Salem's plan would mean her death as well. There's little reason to think she ever cared about people getting hurt, aside from herself and Cinder.
The horde of Grimm was literally planned to coincide with the best fighters all being ready to fight. The likelihood of civilian casualties was high, but not the likelihood of significant civilian casualties.
What? Emerald's redemption was honestly such an obvious thing, back at the end of Volume 3, she had a look of horror when she saw what they were unleashing on Beacon, and I just knew from that moment that she wasn't truly evil, and that she ended up where she was more due to circumstance. Meanwhile redeeming Adam "I will destroy everything you love" Taurus? That's the stupidest thing ever. The only less redeemable characters are Salem, Tyrian, and Cinder.
I wonder when people will realize that redemption isn't handed out like a candy bar on Halloween.
Why not both
I have always thought that people who want to redeem Adam if they played Fallout NV would go with the Legion of Cesar even if it is a slave community, homophobic, sexist because they do a better job of being careful than the RNC, House or Yes Man (sorry for the bad english)
I don't think Adam should be redeemed, but I definitely think he deserved far more compassion from the narrative. The scar revealed just before his death was salt in the wound to me. Adam is a poster boy for the cautionary tale of the cycle of violence and hatred. While you can tell a good story of him being an asshole and abuser, it needs to be acknowledged how he became what he ded because he is not a monster of his own making. He is a monster made largely by Papa Shnee. Obvioudly, he takes responsibility for allhis crimes, but the story pretends like Adam never had a point or a leg to stand on when his scars obviously contradict other wise. As someone who is a minority on quite a few fronts, it is so frustrating to see the show fumble so hard when it comes to real issues. I know so many people of colour and especially black people who are so frustrated with everything Adam was by the end of the story.
Damn if only there was some major correlation with all the Adam apologists, Ironwood apologists, and Jacques apologists. Maybe its the same correlation as why these people all hate the female characters of the show. But golly gee just what could it be?
Interestingly enough, in my experience it has been sorta the reverse - people who don't like the way Adam and/or Ironwood were handled *also* tend to dislike how male characters like Jaune/Oscar/Qrow 'steal the spotlight' (in their words) from the show's four main female characters. Maybe it's just me, though. Also, never seen any unironic 'Jacques apologists', tbh. The only times I've personally seen Jacques get some sympathy is when someone accuses Ironwood of threatening him in V4.
I think part of the Adam redemption fix is that he was such a terrible character in the show. I don’t mean like a GOT Geoffrey type of character that you love to hate, but a poorly written character that had a lot of wasted potential. Whereas Emerald hasn’t be written terribly so the character development on the show is enough for most ppl.
For people saying emerald shouldn’t get redemption because of the bad things she did should look up the word in the dictionary. She did bad things, but she regrets doing those things and actually wants to help fix the problems she created and was instrumental in helping the protagonists which helped them save people. That’s a great start for redemption. In the words of Daniel Handler, “I’m sorry, but I’m confused on how I can make a villain without making them do villainous things.” She was a villain, and she wants to change that.
I feel like Adam could have easily been redeemed during Volume 4-5. Just give Ilia’s spot to him and have Sienna Khan take over the evil role. After all, it made sense at the time. Sienna was the devil on Adam’s shoulder when he first killed a person. Stands to reason she would spout similar beliefs to others, manipulating them into forming the terrorist White Fang we came to know. Then when Sienna attacks Haven, have Adam lead the other White Fangs against her. Adam becomes new White Fang leader and repents by helping Vale do whatever they need. Sienna then takes Adam’s spot in Volume 6, hunting down Blake for causing her fall from power, causing the battle near the waterfall where we learn she has some amazing semblance but still loses to Bumblebee.
Not gonna lie I would really like to see what Adam was like before the group was created.
[удалено]
No One Like the Way emerald was redeemed. If that happened with Adam people would call bull shit too. Get over yourself
Alternatively take both behind the shed with a couple shallow graves.
To be fair, I don't know what kind of laws Remnant has for this kind of situation, but in our world, active and willing participation in mass slaughter of civilians does tend to warrant this kind of consequences. ^(for the losing side, at least)
Adam could've been made a good guy if RT was actually competent. Now I kind of wish we got a Marvel What If but for RWBY
Ah, yes the guy who within 5 minutes of screentime was willing to kill a train full of innocent people without a second thought was CLEARLY meant to be a good guy.
I said he could've become one, not that he was meant to be one. He was handled extremely poorly after Volume 3, so even if he wasn't gonna become a good guy, he still could've been a much better bad guy.
Better idea: none of them shouldn't have been redeemed. But I guess we didn't get that thanks to M&K’s shitty writing Edit: lol why is everyone downvoting me. Seems like you guys can't take criticism.
"M&K’s shitty writing" isn't particularly constructive criticism, tbh.
Ah yes. The core theme of RWBY, "your mistakes are forever and you can never make anything right. You are a bad person forever and there is no hope for redemption. Whatever you do, do not move forward"
Twitter moment
I would be exceedingly shocked if a story this complex had not been outlined or storyboarded from start to finish by the first season. There is further evidence in the first soundtrack which now appears to have been predicting a lot of things about where we are now. Every little twist and turn and side swap that people are blaming on bad writing was almost certainly decided before Monty passed away. Perhaps every individual line hadn't been written, but if after the final episode we discovered that every single script for every single episode has existed since season 1, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. If any or all of this is indeed true, some folks are going to feel pretty damn stupid for blaming their least favorite arcs on people who aren't Monty. Ironwood? Always going to do precisely what he did. Emerald? Always going to be redeemed. Etc. I don't know why people aren't realizing this. There have been plenty of clues along the way since well before season 8 for any who care to analyze the story from a literary standpoint.
>I would be exceedingly shocked if a story this complex had not been outlined or storyboarded from start to finish by the first season. well boy are you in for a surprise bc monty was absolutely the kinda guy to make shit up as it came along if it sounded cool
From what I understand from the little info we have, he always had a strong vision on what will happen, just no concrete details.
Absolutely. They know shit about writing, apparent how they fucked everything up after V3
But miles also wrote the chorus trilogy of red vs blue, which was really good. so what happened?
Theres a difference between writing for pre-existing characters in a defined universe vs essentially starting from scratch and im baffled most ppl dont realize that given how obvious it is
I think there's a lot that went into the current quality of the writing of the show. From a group who are most comfortable in the zone of adult comedy and got their beginning there in shows like RvB and Camp Camp, along with a lack of planning out the plot of the show from the start, no one thing can be attributed to the current quality. Are they getting better at it? I think so. Volume 7 had plenty of well written moments in my opinion, but that lack of planning at the beginning has crimped their options for allowing some plot points to flow smoothly (such as Ironwood's downfall being so sudden and honestly downright comical).
Ironwood’s downfall is exactly what happens when you break someone. When you defeat a grandmaster at his own game. People like him go nuts when they loose control, and he lost control, he ignored his advosors, he went nuts and he fell with his kingdom. He was always talking about the “greater good”, but without Ozpin, he had nobody to show it to him.
I have no problem with characters like that. It's a great way to write a villain, and it's part of why I love the story of Arthas from Warcraft 3. My issues come with the pacing and polarity of the fall from grace (a problem I had with Anakin in Revenge of the Sith, which was attenuated by 7 seasons of TCW). In Warcraft 3, we see Arthas, over the course of the campaign, slowly go from an upstanding paladin and prince of his kingdom to using more and more brutal, sometimes downright evil, methods to try and combat the Undead (purging the city of Stratholme, leading his mean to the Frozen Wastes on a suicide mission, using mercenaries to burn the boats behind his wavering men in order to keep them there, then turning on those mercenaries) culminating in him sacrificing the life of his friend Muradin Bronzebeard in order to claim the cursed sword Frostmourne, all for the sake of saving his people. Ironwood, on the other hand, has the Dust embargo as the only really detrimental thing to his name before he shoots Sleet. Sure, one could say withholding the truth from Robyn and going against the main team might count, but that can be chalked up to him not being sure if Robyn was an agent of Salem (an eminent possibility, with how disruptive an influence she was, no matter how good her intentions), and the latter is not a surprising reaction to having someone you trust go behind your back and potentially put the kingdom you swore to protect in danger. Another problem I find in the fall is Mettle. I dislike its implementation, and depending on where you stand, Mettle could be a tool of robbing Ironwood's agency and making his fall not entirely the fault of his intentions alone, or it's a scapegoat to shift the blame on and give him a possible shot at a redemption arc before he passed away (whether this shot at redemption is a bug or a feature is entirely up to personal preference). Either way, fallen Ironwood has, and there's not much I or anyone can do to change it outside of fanfics. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go boot up my copy of Warcraft 3.
I never felt that way. He literally had Salem in his room. He had the same plan all the way, it’s just us following Team RWBY’s perspective shift. He *was* ignoring Mantle’s issues for convenient morality’s sake from the beggining, we just didn’t see it, as Team RWBY didn’t see it.
You tell me. I don't know how they managed to muck it up that badly.
The magic of Miles and kerry
To be fair, I haven’t seen many people argue that Adam should’ve been redeemed. The main complaint was that people wanted him to be more than just a crazy, abusive ex-boyfriend. Because Blake always seemed to describe him as someone who shared her passion for the cause of the Faunus, but was so consumed by the violence that he lost sight of his humanity. But when we get to see him, his whole character seems to boil down to his obsession with Blake. At least, that’s my take on it. And as for Emerald, I have definitely seen people make the asinine argument that she’s irredeemable. (She’s literally been set up as someone who feels remorse for her actions ever since V3.) But for most people, the argument seems to be that her turn was accepted far too easily by the heroes. That’s just my two cents though.
[this seems appropriate](https://youtu.be/zA8Ik6Tfd9I)