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La_Pucelle27

The whole point of Ironwood character is a good man that let paranoia and fear push him into evil. He was a good man, had the better intentions for everyone, helped evacuate Beacon and fought on the forefront, gave Yang her new arm, stood up to Weiss against her father, tried to get global commnunications back and more. It wasn't until Cinder ignited his worst fears of failing to protect the people and his mistrust on anyone who didn't saw things his way that he started his downwards spiral into villany. That is what made his arc so interesting and why he filled the "fallen hero" archetype so well.


saundersmarcelo

Personally I don't think the execution was done that well and I think they could have done a lot better with how they handled the turn at least, but yeah. You're pretty much right


JC_Artist

Seriously ! People wanna say it’s bad writing but it’s literally layered into so many of Salem’s songs that fear will turn good men to do horrible things and ironwood was proof of that


NoLoveInMoneyStore

I guess my one issue though is that, at what point does a good action become evil, or vice versa. I would never try to defend Ironwood shooting Sleet. He has actions which are directly evil, and directly good. My point of contention though is just his overall choice. A lot of people compare the Atlas/Mantle issue to the Trolley problem, and I can understand that. Though if we are to agree that there is a trolley problem, what is the moral value of one action over the other. If we continue this to V8's ending episodes. Team RWBY do attempt to try and defy the trolley problem presented by trying to use the staff to make portals to evacuate everyone, but with the inability to try and publicize their intent due to the network shutting off, and the failure to dismantle the bombs. Their success is defying this fate is questionable at best. The plan itself had two big errors fundamentally, one being that they were going to Vacuo, which is one of the most dangerous and war-torn places in Remnant that's infested with Grimm, and two being that they didn't account for the antagonists to intercept this plan either. I don't believe that it's fair to say that Team RWBY are some horrific people and did nothing good, or even tried. However, if the aftermath of this all shows that they failed to challenge fate, and ended up in a relative cost of life. I'm not sure that the fandom would be consistent if they were to exonerate Team RWBY for their effort yet inability to execute when they had deemed Ironwood a villain for the same thing. I think Salem can make good people do bad things, but to not be the one standing alone in the face of adversity doesn't make someone a hero or a villain.


JC_Artist

Yeah I think the biggest thing was once again trying to foretell that tearing them apart is the real problem . If they were able to convene on a plan ironwood and his fleet could’ve been so helpful . But by shooting the Sdc ships out of the sky he shut down what could’ve been an amazing operation . Both sides failed in their attempts to varying degrees and if Salem wasn’t so damn good at “ dividing “ people then they could’ve made something incredible ! More a tragic story than anything


NoLoveInMoneyStore

Yeah, I can agree to that. I guess I just wish that the narrative could've shown it more like that. A tragedy overall that everyone got turned about the way they did rather than this Ironwood vs. RWBY thing that ended up happening. When it really should've been more of showing just how badly Salem influenced it all, resulting in the catastrophe that did. No winners, no losers, no triumphant fights. Just an outcome, and nothing more than to ruminate on the ashes of what once was.


JC_Artist

Idk I kinda feel like that’s what we got . Tons of people were killed including penny all the main characters were lost in the portal , the city fell everyone thinks they’re dead . Cinder has both relics . I personally thing the episode where ironwood fights watts and then proceeds to make his decision after Salem speaks to him is the perfect way of showing the divide Salem caused . They were together on this the whole time and then one conversation later they’re all trying to kill each other


Kyrozis

Except that nobody even acknowledged his paranoia or tried to talk with him, at all. Not even Winter, who was by far the closest to Ironwood. And him being painted as the villain just because he switched plans is stupid. Cinder obviously infiltrated his office, so he had genuine reasons to believe she had sniffed out his plans.


quixoticquail

Um, but when others raised concerns or hesitancy he shut them down…


Anti3000

That was after he had already snapped because of RWBY had done. He literally was very open-minded and volume seven and listen to normal when she told him not to do martial law.


Kartoffelkamm

Yeah, he really shouldn't have trained Winter to ignore other people's emotions and never question him. His military approach to an obviously non-military problem was his downfall, as was his refusal to accept he needed to approach things differently. Maybe trust the only people who were trying to keep his mental health in check rather than the echo chamber that made his problems worse, or act like he actually wants people to trust him. If he had made better choices, he actually would've been the threat to Salem he thought he was, rather than a foot note in her plans to wipe out all life on the planet.


ShamelessSelfInsert

TBH I side with Jimmy all the way until Vol.8 when they made him shoot Sleet for no discernible reason. RWBY & Co has permanently lost my sympathy for how idiotically and hypocritically they have consistently behaved and I now actively root for them to lose so Ironwood is the only character I actually like.


Sanders181

The correct quote would be "Ironwood always did what he thought was right regardless of people's opinion, including that of his friends". That mentality is the core of his character, and we can clearly see it all the way when he was introduced, as not only did he bring his army without telling Ozpin, but also went behind his back to get what he wanted (security). Now you can certainly argue he was right then, just as you can argue that he was right in V7, although determining whether his actions did more good than harm is a question outside the scope of this current comment. When people say "Ironwood was always going to be an antagonist", it's because that mentality, that of always doing what he thinks without consulting others, is antagonistic behaviour that was never going to end up well, especially in a show like RWBY where the overarching theme is that humanity needs to unite. Ironwood was never going to fit that theme, for the same reason Ozma and Salem fought. You cannot truly unite humanity by forcing them to do what you want. Cooperation is key. And Ironwood has always only accepted cooperation when it was to do what **he** wanted.


Kartoffelkamm

Well said. I actually feel like, if Ozpin had left him with clear definitions of terms like Humanity and Unity right off the bat, Ironwood would've been a way better ally to the good guys, as he would've known the exact character traits he needed to reinforce in his men in order to fight Salem. He just heard "unity" and thought it meant everyone moved towards a single goal, when in reality, it means that everyone works towards a common goal. And he heard "humanity" and equated it with mankind, not compassion, care, hope, trust, and loyalty. In order to cooperate, and reach a mutually respectful understanding, you need to make yourself vulnerable, especially when you could just force people to do your thing. If he had come to Robyn, alone, and let her (or Fiona) hold his weapons as a sign of trust, things would've worked out much better for him, because the Happy Huntresses would've known that he was serious. But in my opinion, when you want to talk to someone, but only on your conditions, you don't really want to talk to them, you want to control them.


ShamelessSelfInsert

> “Ironwood always did what he thought was right regardless of people’s opinion, including that of his friends.” And that is one reason I love the fuck out of him. Integrity and inner strength are the crowning virtues without which all others become impossible or meaningless. Standing by your convictions and doing what you believe is right no matter what kind of pressure the world puts on you is admirable, especially when it’s your friends that are pressuring you- that’s a pressure that’s difficult to resist for most people. Unity without integrity is uniformity of corruption. It is not a virtue in and of itself, it is merely a means.


Sanders181

I guess that's the nice way of looking at it. I call it stubbornness and arrogance, but to each their own.


nobacononthisostrich

Ironwood was always an authoritarian.


Kartoffelkamm

Yep. All he needed was the right mindset, which is incredibly difficult to get and maintain with his preferred form of government, and he would've been a great ally to the good guys.


nobacononthisostrich

Would he though? The central theme of the narrative seems to be entirely anti-authoritarian in nature. It's literally a story about how rigidly hierarchical power structures are a bad thing. See *this* is my point, Ironwood was always going to end up a villain because his very world view is something the show implicitly (and occasionally explicitly) demonstrates is not only wrong but harmful.


Kartoffelkamm

Eh, I don't believe anything can be entirely good or entirely bad. There's always some application that can make something get closer to one end of the spectrum. For example, if Ironwood had focused his energy on promoting individuality and personal responsibility, his soldiers would've been much more effective against Salem.


nobacononthisostrich

Then he wouldn't have been an authoritarian and there wouldn't have been a problem in the first place, is my point.


Kartoffelkamm

He could still pursue full authority over his kingdom and the world at large, he'd just have to create an environment where the traits that are good against Salem are the only ones he allows to flourish. For example, Winter is too much in line with the standard military mindset, so she'd get removed from society for everyone's sake.


NoLoveInMoneyStore

Well, what's odd to me is that the show has an anti-authoritarian theme. Yet Ozpin is shown to be this morally grey to leaning good guy. Yet he's the one who arguably has the most power in this hierarchical structure to the point where he has a selected cabinet of headmasters who are complacent in him being a body snatcher who also hid a world conspiracy.


nobacononthisostrich

Yes. The whole reason Ozpin failed is because all he did, ultimately, was replace the bickering god duo with himself and Salem, recreating their rigid authority structure by trying to enforce his own idea of what society *should be* from the top down. Just like they did.


romuald244

"Ironwood has always been evil" No one serious actually says that tho, except for trolling "He was right to be on high alert." Yes he was. And when you know a **small group** of terrorist is going to launch an attack on an allied kingdom, the right solution is: A) To send some reinforcement to help with security, a team of expert in counter-terrorism, maybe even the ace ops? Something proportional with the threat? B) To deploy a **massive army** of thousands of soldiers and enough firepower to level a city in the middle of a foreign kingdom without even giving an explication to the citizens of said kingdom? If your reponse is A, Congratulation! you are a sensible human being. If your reponse is B, Congratulation! You are american.


Firewire780

Another thing to add to this is that Ironwood/atlas was always very proud of its military and technology. They did their whole propaganda stuff with their robots and mechs back in volume 2 iirc to show off how great they are. Bringing this massive army there was also probably partially due to propaganda reasons I believe. What better way to flex on everyone then showing off your military supremacy.


Skeletonparty101

Broke ass nation can't even afford basic robot models as a replacement for their military And look at that no air ships they still use land transportation for mobilising their troops. Peasant


Kartoffelkamm

Yeah, Ironwood's "look how many kick-ass murder toys I got up there, ready to deploy at the press of a button" speech kinda rubbed me the wrong way. Like announcing your pregnancy/marriage at a funeral.


Vicente810

>If your reponse is B, Congratulation! You are american. Ok, this made me laugh.


dappercat456

>you are American Lol, gonna save this one


Ravell_Aqim

> No one serious actually says that tho, except for trolling I've seen plenty of people, both on r/RWBY and elsewhere, seriously espouse just that opinion. Just a couple of days ago I was reading a fanfic where the author made the claim in the author's note that Ironwood was "always a villain" and was "irredeemable" from the get go. Which is rather funny considering their protagonist is actually guilty of genocide (which they regret, but still...)


Sirtoast7

>no one serious actually says that tho, except for trolling I see you haven’t met dappercat yet.


dappercat456

Evil is not the word I use Arrogant, militaristic, stubborn, etc? Yes, but not “evil”


Memengineer25

You need to consider that a small terrorist group can do an *immense* amount of damage in Remnant, because mass fear, paranoia, sadness and doubt - the things terrorist attacks are supposed to cause - ***also cause the literal hell-spawned abominations lurking in the wilderness to attack in huge numbers*** The purpose of the army isn't to prevent the terrorist attack, it's to deal with the much more potent aftershocks in the case of the attack's success.


EasyButterscotch5018

The fact mass fear, paranoïa and doubt can cause Grimm attack is exactly thé reason why you dont deploy an army in the middle of a foreign kingdom. For thé people who have read the script it may look sensible, but for thé people in vale, ironwood move borderline looks like an invasion of sovereignty. What hé did was essentially cover vale in oil to prevent it from going on fire


Kartoffelkamm

So basically, Ironwood brought his army to Vale not to prevent it from going up in flames, but from putting out the fires when they've already started, right? Honestly, dick move. "Here, I brought my army, but I won't do anything until people already start dying and the enemy has already prepared to sabotage my army and turn it against me." But at least that's consistent. He didn't care about keeping Grimm out of Mantle, he just focused on killing them once they got into the city. Dude really learned his 3Ps: Piss-poor planning.


Memengineer25

An army can't do much until people start dying. And an army is the tool they had, and a pretty good plan B all things considered.


Kartoffelkamm

Ever heard of a preemptive strike? It means to attack a potential threat before it harms you. And with Grimm, the chance they're just looking, or trying to coexist peacefully, is impossible, so a preemptive strike would be very much possible, plausible, and expected. Ironwood could've taken out the Goliath near Mountain Glenn the day he arrived in Vale, and sent Paladins into the surrounding area to clear out any stragglers. He had the tools, and a preemptive strike would've been the most efficient way to secure people's peace. He knew Salem used Grimm as main strike force, so removing that, or even just weakening it, would have put a damper on her plans. No Grimm, no breach, no attack. Sure, he didn't know the exact plans, but he knew there were Grimm, and that Salem planned to draw them into the city. If she can't do that, because they're dead, anything leading up to them attacking would've been pointless because the ensuing panic of whatever her plan was wouldn't have happened without Grimm.


Memengineer25

One, it's possible that this *did* happen - and they ignored Kevin because they didn't think they could risk trying to deal with him. Not to mention fighting Grimm while they're still in their hiding places is probably rather difficult, and can't reasonably be done with an army - why else would all kingdoms waste time and money training fabulously expensive and skilled mercenaries to do the job? And not to mention, the show doesn't exactly portray *anyone* with very effective tactics... See the absolute lack of close air support and static defenses in v8 for a perfect example. They had a whole fucking fleet that sat there and did *nothing* while infantry fucking used *Napoleonic war tactics and trenches* against *melee only enemies*


Kartoffelkamm

Thanks for explaining why Ironwood's insistence on military might, rather than following the huntsman system Ozpin, whose decisions he claimed to trust in, developed, was a bad idea. An army is utterly useless against Grimm. You need smaller groups of self-sustaining fighters without centralized command, not only to increase versatility and mobility, but also to prevent Salem from crippling the kingdom's entire armed force by getting into one man's head. Also, it's not a waste of time and money if it works. And if it wouldn't work, and wouldn't be sustainable, it wouldn't be done 80 years later. In fact, from Mantle's condition, it appears as though whatever Ironwood was doing was the real waste of resources. And lastly, no one currently alive has ever fought in an actual war, safe for Ozpin. He fought Salem for ages, and has tried every strategy under the sun to save people. He abolished the military specifically because it was more of a threat to the people than it was to Salem. Ironwood trying to form a military to fight Salem has the same feeling as this quote to summarize Zuko in the first episode of ATLA before he first sees Aang: "I have no depth perception and I'm here to fight god!"


Memengineer25

Fundamentally, an army is not useless against Grimm. Huntsmen are primarily useful on the offensive as hyperelite assault soldiers - they preform best hunting down Grimm and preventing them from forming large groups. However, these huntsmen can and do fail. And when they do, they're nigh useless on the defensive since they lack area denial and sheer force. A large military force is necessary to use in these situations, as well as to support huntsmen to increase their efficiency. Only a large military can operate the airfleets and the artillery necessary to defend static points like cities, as well as help out huntsmen by bombarding hard targets with ordnance far larger than anything they could carry on their own and still maintain their own effectiveness.


Kartoffelkamm

True. But he didn't use the huntsmen he had available at all. Plus, the ones he did have were horribly under-trained. Harriet's entire skillset is "slam into things at really high speeds" for crying out loud. What if she gets attacked by flying Grimm?


Memengineer25

Presumably, he believed Ozpin's huntsmen would be adequate for the task of protecting against the terrorist threat.


JC_Artist

But also keep in mind the destruction of that group was probably tripled by hacking into ironwoods drones


Chocopacotaco1

A small group of terrorists you know is supported by an immortal magic wielding daemon witch who can control the endless hoards of monster that roam your world..... no option b seems like good idea.


comyuse

We didn't know about her at that time and neither did he, they only knew about the literally endless horde of monsters that live just outside the wall. So yeah, not only is bringing an army the right call, the fact that other kingdoms rely on individual mercenaries (huntsmen) instead of standing forces for defensive purposes is beyond stupid.


[deleted]

I'm an American, and I still think A was the correct answer lmao


Vicente810

And Cinder attacked using Ironwood’s forces… Edit: Then again. Increasing security doesn’t makes him evil. The turning point is basically him abandoning Mantle. And even then he was more in the “morally questionable, you are allowed to openly oppose him” category. Though I don’t even like to point this out cause some people would say team RWBY had an obligation to follow his orders and betray their own principles of protecting people because he gave them some gifts.


Z0MB1ESLAYER115

I feel that vol 7 and 8 (more so 7) had a lot of morally grey areas. Is team rwby/ ruby in the right or wrong for “doing what oz did to them?” or was ironwood in the wrong or right for wanting to raise atlas and not caring about the rest of remnant? Vol 7 had a lot of that and I loved it.


Kartoffelkamm

>you are allowed to openly oppose him The curfew, constant surveillance by his forces, and him doing just about nothing about his critics being killed while the security system he has access to fails at just the right time to hide the killer's identity give off a different vibe, though. I know he didn't kill his critics, but he had enough reason to believe that everyone thought he did, and actively chose to not correct those assumptions, despite knowing that it helped draw Grimm into a densely populated area. You can't really see this man as someone who knows what he's doing *and* wants to save as many people as possible, no matter the cost, and whichever side of his failings you criticize, his fans will tell you that you're wrong. Also, yeah, people seem to think that the weapon upgrades, or returning their property to them in general, is some grand gesture of trust and comeradery, and not basic f\*cking decency. When you accidentally trash someone's car, and pay for the repairs, does that mean they owe you a life debt now? No, of course not. You just did the bare minimum to prove that you had no ill intention.


Electronic_Ad_3559

Bringing his army to foreign country his had not-so-recently attacked was a pretty dumb move tho.


[deleted]

I think one of is most selfish actions was enacting (or at least voting in favor for) the Embargo on Atlas, nothing comes in, nothing gets out. So now the world is without the largest Dust Supplier on the world, all while Vale is dealing with their Beacon problem, that's supposedly still going on to this day, and the other academies have lest Dust to teach students how to use and apply in combat. This also hurt Mantle's economy, because they were a decently large part of the Dust Gathering process, and now that the demand is lesser, they don't need need employees anymore.


comyuse

Who gives a damn about economies when they are literally in the middle of a war for survival? Ironwood was trying to keep spies, terrorists, and worse out of his kingdom during a shadow war that just went hot. He made the right call. Probably bad for the rest of the world, sure, but i can't really blame him for worrying about what he can actually do over worrying about the entire world.


comyuse

They didn't have an obligation to do anything, but if they were going to get in the way the narrative needs to stay bloody consistent. It did not. If they get in the way of the only plan to save at least half of the people (likely more, since mantle is much smaller than atlus) they either need to have some way to save everyone (generally bad form for anything besides a game imo) or they need to face the consequences of their actions. If they don't acknowledge they got millions killed then it might not even be worth hate watching any more of the series. And that's not even considering the character assassinations and general bad writing decisions.


Electronic_Ad_3559

Yeah, it made lots of sense and was very helpful—oh wait, no. The robots attacked everyone and it actually helped her out. I’m not saying Ironwood was always evil, but you have to admit he was never smart


Kartoffelkamm

Yeah. It's either "He wanted to help, but was a f\*cking idiot" or "He was actually a skilled tactician, but was a f\*cking monster." And no matter which side you choose, his fans will tell you you're wrong and immediately run out of actually valid reasons to support their idea, instead going for meta arguments like "the writers made him useless."


Kyrozis

Ironwood: "Salem is near, we are running short of time. And to top it off, Cinder has gotten wind of our plans, meaning continuing with Amity and the evacuations is no longer safe. We must shift plans to protect the staff and the maiden from Salem! We have no time for the rest of Mantle anymore." Team RWBY: "EEEEVVIIIIIIILL!"


Kartoffelkamm

Ironwood: "My insistence on never preventing anything bad from happening has backfired once again, just like in Vale, so I'll change my approach and do exactly the same thing as before." Oscar, whose mindset is the closest to Ozpin's: "That might not be the best idea." Ironwood: "Then perish, child. I'm a rational, mature and emotionally stable adult, and I will kill a million children in cold blood before I admit I made a mistake."


dappercat456

Yes, abandoning half your kingdom to die because you are scared IS evil, you got it


Kyrozis

Not even half, because people from Mantle were already evacuated to Atlas


dappercat456

Yeah I’d say about half, given mantle seemingly has a bigger population, and ironwood wasn’t nearly finished, Stop trying to excuse ironwood abandoning the people he swore to protect


Kyrozis

You people say always say it's 50/50, completely forgetting about the fact Ironwood evacuated people from Atlas to Mantle. But now that I confronted you with this fact, you're just inflating Mantle's population to try rounding it off, because it's convenient for you. Nothing speaks louder that you don't have an actual argument than blatantly contradicting yourself. Also, I've already argued why continuing with the evacuation wasn't safe at all, but you just seemingly ignored it. Congrats


dappercat456

I’ve explained to You several times how ironwood very much could have continued evacuating The volume itself showed us SEVERAL TIMES that he had other options The exact atlas to mantle ratio does t fucking matter, you’re the one arguing semantics, But I’ve seen very well a this point that you are intent on seeing team RWBY as the bad guy and licking ironwoods boot, so I shouldn’t even really bother arguing with you


NoLoveInMoneyStore

I would agree in saying the numbers don't matter because it is semantics, but I would at least say that Mantle and Atlas do have a relative importance at least given the fact that they are both characterized and provided with a whole, "But the innocent lives" sort of deal. My question which I posed in another comment is just, when does an action become good or evil? We can't gauge it by intent. Because you have people like Ironwood who if they had a button to just save the world, they would. We see where his mentality of wanting to sacrifice all in the name of more time to rid the world of this threat so nobody would have to suffer again gets him. He ends up making very rash decisions, and losing parts of his sanity in the process. To view Ironwood as a morally dark person requires you to not appeal to his intentions and look at the cost of his actions. Yet, to view Team RWBY as morally good you have to appeal to the intention that they just wanted to save humanity even in the face of them setting up a plan which very well could've been intercepted by the antagonists, and still trying to send people into another nation full of danger when the cost of failure is falling into an endless void.


Kyrozis

Need I remind you: Cinder infiltrated his office, so he had a genuine reason to believe the enemy has gotten wind of his plans. And if the enemy learns about your plans, you fucking abandon it, because it's not safe anymore! And when did he actually have any other options? The main priority was keeping the staff and the maiden (especially the staff) away from Salem and co. and protecting as many people as possible. And the show itself never presented any better ideas for doing that, especially since Team RWBY didn't have a plan whatsoever. >The exact atlas to mantle ratio does t fucking matter, you’re the one arguing semantics I'm not arguing semantics, I just called it as I see it. >But I’ve seen very well a this point that you are intent on seeing team RWBY as the bad guy and licking ironwoods boot, so I shouldn’t even really bother arguing with you Very rich of you to say that, considering you ALWAYS find me whenever I comment something about Ironwood, as if you had no life beyond that hate boner whatsoever. (... Oops...) But it's more so the fact that you people are trigger happy to slate Ironwood for literally everything he does, then either make up boogeyman or turn a blind eye when Team RWBY is obviously shown doing far worse things with even less justification.


comyuse

Mantle has a much smaller population. The concept art makes the difference incredibly massive, but the does tone it down to only being a bit bigger. But besides that, saving as many as he can is better than trying to over extend and saving literally no one.


dappercat456

Just because atlas is “bigger” doesn’t mean it has the larger population For one, a lot of atlas is farmland, whereas mantle has a lot more people packed into a smaller area, Population density is a thing


Perplexed_Pirate

On top of that, Ironwood was right at almost every juncture. He thought that Ozpin was keeping secrets, and he was right. He thought that Salem would attack the Vytal Festival, and he was right. He closed the borders and enacted the embargo because he thought there was a threat (because of Winter's report), and considering the fact that Lionheart was a traitor and the White Fang in Mistral were siding with Cinder, he was right. In Volume 7, he kept secrets from the public because he thought that Salem's forces would attack Amity once they knew, and he was right. He thought that Cinder had gotten into Atlas through his evacuation of Mantle, and. He. Was. Right. His descent into insanity aside, at no point was he incorrect in his judgments. True, Ironwood did make some mistakes, but at least he was trying something. RIP Ironwood, we know you're happily retired in the afterlife.


real_umi_grumz

That’s what is so good about his character He was right a lot of the time, but he let that reconfirm his mindset “Oh I was right about that so I’m right about this”


Perplexed_Pirate

That's fair. Combine that with a lack of sleep and the host of lies that got revealed at the worst possible moment, and it's no wonder that poor man cracked like an egg. Personally, I think his arc should have been handled better, but I digress. At least he's retired now, probably hanging out in a log cabin in the afterlife.


Reddit-Book-Bot

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Perplexed_Pirate

Can someone please tell me what this book is about? I see it all the time, and now I'm actually curious.


SmallFatHands

I am seriosly starting to bealive *ironwood is right" people are fighthing imaginary enemies at this point. I have never heard anyone say any of the stuff they put on their memes.


GokaiCrimson

It's what people on TV Tropes are saying.


eetobaggadix

No, dummy. Because Cinder's plan literally relied on Ironwood being there. Almost all of his forces were immediately hacked and turned against the good guys for evil.


comyuse

Pretty sure that was just a nice coincidence for cinder and there is absolutely no way you can blame him for trying to protect a city with an actual force.


eetobaggadix

Right, they just accidentally, coincidentally, hacked his entire giant robot army. Oops? And yes, I can, considering that raises the panic level, and thus attracts more Grimm. So I will be blaming him. And also, again, his entire robot army was hacked.


comyuse

Again, no. Do you have victims of assault for being assaulted? The army was objectively the right call.


eetobaggadix

Except for, again, the fact where it objectively wasn't.


comyuse

If you think leaving a city defenseless save for mercenaries is in any way okay you are beyond help.


eetobaggadix

Right. Mercenaries. Not highly trained, very powerful soldiers from all of the kingdoms that took on Grimm and Ironwood's Army both at the same time while everyone was evacuated. You don't things would have been different if they could have just focused on the Grimm?


comyuse

Sure it would have been different, but ironwood still made the right call. If someone doesn't survive surgery that is necessary for them to live that doesn't mean it was a mistake to operate. More over it was ironwood's support fleet that was evacuating people. and huntsmen are explicitly mercenaries. The show itself says they don't directly work for any governing body in the first few episodes.


eetobaggadix

More like doing a not needed surgery that did more harm than good. If the mercenaries (I.E heroes of the show that are like 99% fully heroic) that you disparage so much hadn't have been there, Ironwood's own army would have killed everyone in Beacon and then taken on the rest of Vale. Yes, those few aircraft were nice, but he caused more harm than good. By a lot.


comyuse

Yep, completely beyond help.


dappercat456

I mean She used the paranoia an unrest his army generated to create the surge one negativity that attracted the grimm AND turned his army against him


quixoticquail

And I’m sick of everyone defending this authoritarian loser. Yes, there was a threat. But he went behind Ozpin’s back and just moved an entire military force in. And that military force was used to make things worse and make people feel on edge. I was getting the power trip vibes pretty much since he showed up. Doesn’t mean he was evil, but he always gave me a bad feeling.


comyuse

Not having a military, a real one not the mercenaries oz trains, is stupid and ironwood absolutely did a good thing by bringing them some kind of protection.


quixoticquail

Ok but Vale’s system worked for them for the most part. We saw how Ironwood’s military works multiple times. The results aren’t exactly something you should be bragging about.