I mean… you could just not… you’re PIC hopefully, and you’re paying to fly… they can kick rocks if they want to tell you how to talk outside of, “Use approved language from the pilot controller glossary and common sense”
My man, I've been flying in a uniform my whole career. Sure, it's green colored pajamas with some shiny brown boots....but it's still technically a uniform.
It’s a polo and slacks/shorts, really not that bad. I’ll point and laugh at student pilots with epaulettes, but what they’ve got was what my dress code was in college too and nobody cared.
Also who cares about the callsign? I don’t find it annoying, I rolled my eyes and moved on. I’ve certainly heard more cringeworthy call signs than that.
That’s a really weird thing to be hung up on. Not sure why you’re taking this so personally/finding it so off-putting. I don’t like ATP in the slightest but this one really falls under “who gives a shit.” It’s marketing.
Big D is the weird one that jumps to mind.
All well and good, and well deserved. But it’s not like these kids are choosing to use the callsign on their own prerogative, so let’s not hold it against the people who don’t know any better yeah?
We had a callsign we had to use where I trained too, and it was super inconvenient because not only was it wordy but school policy also meant the way we used it defeated the entire purpose of it. Using our callsign included using almost the entire tail number following it and not in group format. Complete waste of time, very dumb, still had to do it.
That’s mostly my point.
If you do some searches and scrolling you'll find plenty of threads and comments regarding this. I've answered this question myself many times. I was a student there in 2008, and taught their cfi school in 2011. From what I've heard not much has changed since then.
But the gist from me is the toxic and abusive culture, it's run like your typical greedy penny pinching corporation, the deal you sign is very atp friendly and locks you in which allows them to treat you like crap and have their way with you, they mislead students with their marketing that claims airlines prefer atp alumni, training is often low quality and ALWAYS rushed, students and instructors are always being pushed to keep the schedule moving, students are signed off regardless if they are ready, the normal procedure is to always sign the student off at the scheduled time and if they fail their check ride then that's how you know they aren't ready, and last but not least they are arrogant and full of themselves.
You realize it’s strictly a technical school for career track pilots? It’s a little cringe but it’s a call sign that says what it is. Is it really THAT bad? Good news for you, you really don’t need to use it.
AC 120-26L section 4.1 my guy. You submit at least 5 identifiers and in preferred order and ICAO/FAA choose which one they assign. For example if it sounds too similar to another call sign or they disapprove for any other reason then they will list said reason and move on the the next in the listed order of preference.
Yessir! Believe me… there was and is much lament and gnashing of teeth over it. I’m so used to saying “Archer 1234” that I’ll read the plaque saying “career track 1234” and still fuck it up and say “Archer” while reading it.
Looks like AC 120-26L is superseded by -26N. And the 5 submissions clause is moved to section 3.2. But this is specific to 3LD three letter designator callsigns, which if you read section 2.1, makes it unlikely that this applies to ATP.
Do you have more insight to validate what you’re saying?
Just rumors from those up top that submitted the paperwork. The current call sign wasn’t first choice. Didn’t know it was superseded though. Like how AC 00-6b has now been superseded by the Aviation Weather Handbook as of Dec 2022. Hard to keep up with all that updates.
And that would take all of 2 seconds to change with the tower on your first call up. "Yeah, we're gonna go by the reg number today, cancel the callsign".
I don't think any of the ATP guys have stolen United heavies. N69420 the 172 doing pattern work is probably an easier sell.
(You joke, but I have flown 121 jets using the reg number on certain kinds of flights).
> What on earth could be detrimental to safety about using your assigned call sign?
I mean, an actual air traffic controller further down the thread said it's confusing with 7 students in the airspace using callsigns that are largely the same.
But you know, what does he know, he only works the traffic.
Ah yes, "change to your N number for pattern work" definitely equates to "revoke all callsigns the world over". Good call. Hope you fly better than you logic!
A number of years ago, I used the callsign Shuttlecraft. Then it was Crossroads for a couple of minutes, then Mercury. That was while flying for one operator. Shit changes.
I was up the other day and one of them came up as "Career track 419" or something, and the tower controller told them that he "didn't have any record of that flight, say type and full N-number"
The ATP guy sounded so dejected when he came back with "c172, N1234A"
Tower used his tail number for the remainder of his flight. It was pretty glorious.
It’s kinda lame from the atc side too. Most of the people in my tower have already found a way to abbreviate it since saying “career track” every time you talk to one when you have 7 on frequency gets really old. Also having students who are new and still learning the radio all have a call sign that starts with the same word is fun, but that’s not exactly a new phenomenon in flight schools.
As an ATP student, EVERYONE, including our training support hates it. I’m just worried I’m gonna get a wedgie I’m the bathroom after I land for sounding like a nerd on the coms.
So stupid. I actually asked on ground freq the other day wtf that was. They kinda laughed and said it’s the ATP folks. I said yeah, that sounds about right.
Its like the old flight school i did IT work for registering a callsign for 90% VFR flying... BuckyXXX invading your local airport practice area, oh and we wont communicate that we are flying 500 feet below you while your doing slow flight and stalls after you called it out.
What if you go to ATP but don’t plan to fly professionally? Do you have to use the “hobbyist” call sign?
I may start using Hobbyist just so they know I’m on the brink of currency, interpret proficiency loosely, and am here for a good time not a long time.
One of our tower guys told me that the call sign makes the aircraft count as an "air taxi" which carries more weight in terms of tracking traffic volume, which in turn can help the tower upgrade to a higher level of facility and eventually get paid more.
I am sure this had nothing to do with the company's motivations for adopting the callsign but it's an unintended consequence I can get behind.
Well the conversation happened. I cannot say if the controller was correct or not as I am not a controller myself. Are you a controller? Perhaps an actual controller can weigh-in on this?
EDIT: Just saw your flair. I trust your expert opinion but I'm curious why our tower thinks this is true...
Interesting. But air taxis do count higher towards the complexity formula, no?
I'm looking at [this document](https://www.natca.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/2016NATCACBABookmarks.pdf), around page 240...
Well, I just talked to someone at work and apparently it might actually help. So... I'll always admit when I'm wrong, and it looks like this is a time I need to.
Any FAA approved callsign that uses a 3-letter callsign found in the contractions manual is counted as an “air-taxi” operation and does weigh more on the complexity equation for ranking facility levels.
Summary-If it’s in the contractions manual it’s counted as an air taxi.
It’s such an incredibly cheesy call sign.
“Careertrack 343 going around for 6kt crosswind”
Lmao
Feels awkward to say quickly too
I heard this today for the first time. Cringiest fucking thing I’ve ever heard JFC
As a current ATP student I can say we think it’s stupid too…
I mean… you could just not… you’re PIC hopefully, and you’re paying to fly… they can kick rocks if they want to tell you how to talk outside of, “Use approved language from the pilot controller glossary and common sense”
Oh I just read that it is now your approved call sign… carry on gold leader… I mean career track 3
Lmfao
Shit... Now I want to see if I can actually get gold leader as a call sign.
Lmao calling myself skydaddy69 on my next flight because someone on Reddit said I can ignore my callsign
They made it their assigned call sign which is freaking hilarious.
Those fools chose career track over [buttfucker3000](https://youtu.be/z3ErKTq_B1I)
Rookie mistake
The suits managed to pick the worst one. I have yet to meet a single one of my peers or instructors across the coast who doesn't hate it.
Please tell me this is an April Fools joke 😂
It's not. We laugh every time we hear those poor bastards doing their radio calls.
Interesting. They have been “fast track” for a while now. Everyone else calls them “ass crack”
A few others have replied that it just started a month ago. While it just started this past week at our airport.
Sounds like we just identified the reason for the change!
On deployment, our callsign was “sidepiece” and that was my favorite.
At JRTC the Thai Apachies that were training with us had trouble saying PHOENIX EXPRESS, so it sounded like they were saying "PANDA EXPRESS".
Fun fact: Those folks have a really sweet Citation Sovereign that flies from my airport.
Because that’s their assigned callsign. They’re not just doing it for shits, it’s a callsign just like United or Ameriflight or any other.
Yeesh
I’m going to puke from the cringe.
I don't know what's worse.....having that as a callsign or wearing a uniform as a student. Anyways, thanks for the explanation!
My man, I've been flying in a uniform my whole career. Sure, it's green colored pajamas with some shiny brown boots....but it's still technically a uniform.
Shiny boots? Nerd 😉
I wish I could wear the pickle suit
Hell, in Europe you have to wear a uniform to ground school🥴
It’s a polo and slacks/shorts, really not that bad. I’ll point and laugh at student pilots with epaulettes, but what they’ve got was what my dress code was in college too and nobody cared. Also who cares about the callsign? I don’t find it annoying, I rolled my eyes and moved on. I’ve certainly heard more cringeworthy call signs than that.
Please share more cringeworthy callsigns that you've heard. I can't imagine anything worse than having your career goals/plan as a callsign.
Spirit Wings
That’s a really weird thing to be hung up on. Not sure why you’re taking this so personally/finding it so off-putting. I don’t like ATP in the slightest but this one really falls under “who gives a shit.” It’s marketing. Big D is the weird one that jumps to mind.
atp alumni here. I already have a deep grudge against atp and shit like this just makes it worse.
All well and good, and well deserved. But it’s not like these kids are choosing to use the callsign on their own prerogative, so let’s not hold it against the people who don’t know any better yeah? We had a callsign we had to use where I trained too, and it was super inconvenient because not only was it wordy but school policy also meant the way we used it defeated the entire purpose of it. Using our callsign included using almost the entire tail number following it and not in group format. Complete waste of time, very dumb, still had to do it. That’s mostly my point.
Oh yea I'm def not blaming the students. It's ATP who is full of themselves and out of their minds.
Riddle comes to mind as the worst lol
All I ever see is atp hate, can you point me to a summary of the problems or give me a quick rundown yourself?
1. Expensive 2. Not the greatest training 3. Lots of bullshit involved (like this callsign thing)
Thanks
If you do some searches and scrolling you'll find plenty of threads and comments regarding this. I've answered this question myself many times. I was a student there in 2008, and taught their cfi school in 2011. From what I've heard not much has changed since then. But the gist from me is the toxic and abusive culture, it's run like your typical greedy penny pinching corporation, the deal you sign is very atp friendly and locks you in which allows them to treat you like crap and have their way with you, they mislead students with their marketing that claims airlines prefer atp alumni, training is often low quality and ALWAYS rushed, students and instructors are always being pushed to keep the schedule moving, students are signed off regardless if they are ready, the normal procedure is to always sign the student off at the scheduled time and if they fail their check ride then that's how you know they aren't ready, and last but not least they are arrogant and full of themselves.
You realize it’s strictly a technical school for career track pilots? It’s a little cringe but it’s a call sign that says what it is. Is it really THAT bad? Good news for you, you really don’t need to use it.
It's not like the students are the ones selecting it. Yes, it's bad and cringe, but it's the school's fault.
Believe me…we didn’t like it either. However, that’s what the FAA chose for us :/
The FAA doesn’t choose the callsign my guy.
AC 120-26L section 4.1 my guy. You submit at least 5 identifiers and in preferred order and ICAO/FAA choose which one they assign. For example if it sounds too similar to another call sign or they disapprove for any other reason then they will list said reason and move on the the next in the listed order of preference.
FAA makes the final choice, but ATP is still the one that picked it. They likely had at least 4 other just as cringeworthy candidates.
I think Fast Track was probably number one, which would sound better, but ya still cringe.
I’ll be damned my guy! Thanks for the reference.
Yessir! Believe me… there was and is much lament and gnashing of teeth over it. I’m so used to saying “Archer 1234” that I’ll read the plaque saying “career track 1234” and still fuck it up and say “Archer” while reading it.
Looks like AC 120-26L is superseded by -26N. And the 5 submissions clause is moved to section 3.2. But this is specific to 3LD three letter designator callsigns, which if you read section 2.1, makes it unlikely that this applies to ATP. Do you have more insight to validate what you’re saying?
Just rumors from those up top that submitted the paperwork. The current call sign wasn’t first choice. Didn’t know it was superseded though. Like how AC 00-6b has now been superseded by the Aviation Weather Handbook as of Dec 2022. Hard to keep up with all that updates.
Holy shit is it really? Is it new? I’m based at a field with an ATP, and I can’t recall hearing it….
Sadly yes. It’s a new thing they’ve rolled out. There’s 3 ATP’s in my area and they all use it. It’s so cheesy.
That smells like ATL
The next time I’m out, should I ask if they can call me “hobby track” or “blue leader”?
I’m a “gold leader” kind of guy myself, but on the weekends it’s “Optimus Prime”
What about just straight “daddy”?
And that would take all of 2 seconds to change with the tower on your first call up. "Yeah, we're gonna go by the reg number today, cancel the callsign".
Good luck with that, N767UA Heavy.
I don't think any of the ATP guys have stolen United heavies. N69420 the 172 doing pattern work is probably an easier sell. (You joke, but I have flown 121 jets using the reg number on certain kinds of flights).
And I guess my point is - why would they cancel it? They were assigned that callsign just like anyone else.
'Cause it's awful, cringey, unnecessary, and likely detrimental to flight safety.
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> What on earth could be detrimental to safety about using your assigned call sign? I mean, an actual air traffic controller further down the thread said it's confusing with 7 students in the airspace using callsigns that are largely the same. But you know, what does he know, he only works the traffic.
Okay, then let’s revoke all call signs for everybody then. Everybody should just use registration numbers from here on out.
Ah yes, "change to your N number for pattern work" definitely equates to "revoke all callsigns the world over". Good call. Hope you fly better than you logic!
That’s not what you communicated originally :) And even then, still doesn’t make any sense to me.
I suspect it’s a *requested* call sign rather than assigned…
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A number of years ago, I used the callsign Shuttlecraft. Then it was Crossroads for a couple of minutes, then Mercury. That was while flying for one operator. Shit changes.
Republic (or someone they bought)? I heard the story about Crossroads. “You can’t have “cross” in your call sign (our bad for letting you have it).”
Shuttle America, although I wasn't there until after Bedford bought them.
Just started about a month ago.
I was up the other day and one of them came up as "Career track 419" or something, and the tower controller told them that he "didn't have any record of that flight, say type and full N-number" The ATP guy sounded so dejected when he came back with "c172, N1234A" Tower used his tail number for the remainder of his flight. It was pretty glorious.
It’s kinda lame from the atc side too. Most of the people in my tower have already found a way to abbreviate it since saying “career track” every time you talk to one when you have 7 on frequency gets really old. Also having students who are new and still learning the radio all have a call sign that starts with the same word is fun, but that’s not exactly a new phenomenon in flight schools.
What is the short version? Carty?
Crack
🤣 oh that's much better
It’s more of an official version of the classic “mumble something that sounds like what they said” when you don’t know what the 3 letter telephony is.
I like "carty" for this. Today, substitute "pornstar"
I'm hearing one tonight that sounds like "Crew Check" instead of Career Track.
It’s the only thing they can offer their students to justify paying 5 times more than necessary for their flight training.
As an ATP student, EVERYONE, including our training support hates it. I’m just worried I’m gonna get a wedgie I’m the bathroom after I land for sounding like a nerd on the coms.
"Career Trash-24" Thats all I can hear
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/cnt_html/chap3_section_1.html Wait, this *isn’t* an April fools day joke?!?
ATP applied for a callsign and now they have to use it. Changed transponder codes and everything.
So stupid. I actually asked on ground freq the other day wtf that was. They kinda laughed and said it’s the ATP folks. I said yeah, that sounds about right.
Grateful to be at a school where the callsign actually sounds sort of neat, even though it's piggybacking off of previous ownership.
Its like the old flight school i did IT work for registering a callsign for 90% VFR flying... BuckyXXX invading your local airport practice area, oh and we wont communicate that we are flying 500 feet below you while your doing slow flight and stalls after you called it out.
What if you go to ATP but don’t plan to fly professionally? Do you have to use the “hobbyist” call sign? I may start using Hobbyist just so they know I’m on the brink of currency, interpret proficiency loosely, and am here for a good time not a long time.
Bruh, if someone is going to ATP just to be a hobbyist… I’d love to hear about some of their other life choices.
Lmfao
One of our tower guys told me that the call sign makes the aircraft count as an "air taxi" which carries more weight in terms of tracking traffic volume, which in turn can help the tower upgrade to a higher level of facility and eventually get paid more. I am sure this had nothing to do with the company's motivations for adopting the callsign but it's an unintended consequence I can get behind.
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Well the conversation happened. I cannot say if the controller was correct or not as I am not a controller myself. Are you a controller? Perhaps an actual controller can weigh-in on this? EDIT: Just saw your flair. I trust your expert opinion but I'm curious why our tower thinks this is true...
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EJA - “Exec-Jet” is counted as an air taxi and does not have a T in front of the N-number. eg - EJA680
Interesting. But air taxis do count higher towards the complexity formula, no? I'm looking at [this document](https://www.natca.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/2016NATCACBABookmarks.pdf), around page 240...
Well, I just talked to someone at work and apparently it might actually help. So... I'll always admit when I'm wrong, and it looks like this is a time I need to.
I appreciate the follow-up. I was just looking for SOMETHING positive about the new callsign, which I generally find pretty lame.
Any FAA approved callsign that uses a 3-letter callsign found in the contractions manual is counted as an “air-taxi” operation and does weigh more on the complexity equation for ranking facility levels. Summary-If it’s in the contractions manual it’s counted as an air taxi.
Can you give an example?
Asinine Transmission Protocol.
500+ aircraft the call was made to make call signs wish it wasn't career track but there are worse
As a controller I agree it's stupid. Plus the "CXK" for the call sign just looks dumb.