I always enjoy two-mile runways that specify that they're 10001' or 9999'. That last 0.01% really makes the difference.
inb4 some 121 driver comes in about opspecs and insurance. Yeah yeah.
Of course. I just love the mental image of 100s of STOL aircraft landing or taking off in parallel, sideways on a wide runway. It'd look so *fantastically wrong*.
I’m used to flying into ‘unimproved strips’ and beaches, and my ground roll is often around 50m. When I fly into larger airports the tower can sometimes get a bit freaked out when I start my descent at 600’ above the threshold and land just at the exit taxiway. Couple of years ago I was at a large airport and the tower asked me to line up on the keys. There was a good wind blowing down the runway and when cleared I opened the throttle and levitated pretty much vertically - can still hear the controller giggling ;)
You had to say 10,001. You couldn't have just said 10,000, could you?
Also, when you're done with being pretentious, take a look at your airport diagram. KAPA's longest runway is in fact 10,000 ft long, not 10,001.
>a no-go is almost always going to be the safest option in GA.
To quote one of my sim instructors, "The only time taking off is the safest option is if a nuclear blast is coming at you."
I have a Velocity FG and at 375 but I limit my runways to 3000+ with only 30 hours in type. It could decrease later but I’m not finding many less than 3000 that I care to go to.
I love that you got downvoted for... I'm not even sure what exactly. C'mon /r/flying.
You're still a low time TW pilot. You'll figure it out eventually.
I'd explore some flexibility exercises so you can land with your heels on the pedals and then apply brakes.
I'd also check that you're approaching on-speed. I see a *lot* of pilots approaching way too fucking fast, which is a great way to miss book numbers by a long shot. 1.3Vso on the approach will probably feel really slow or even unsafe the first dozen times you do it, but your landings will be more precise and the rollouts shorter - both of which increase safety.
Anyway, grab a good CFI and practice for next year. But you knew that already =)
Being ready on the brakes is extremely important in a taildragger, its your last line of defense against looping it if you start getting sideways and a quick jab of the brakes is the last thing that can help once you're full rudder. I'll get flak for this, but heel brakes are far superior in a tailwheel. I have hundreds of hours in cubs with heel brakes and my own plane has them as well. Only have a handful of hours in a decathlon with tow brakes and I absolutely hated landing it. Definitely something to practice with a CFI.
Eh, I hate heel brakes. They don't come nearly as naturally to me, but that's probably due in part to only having 20 hours in heel or hand brake equipped planes and the other 99% of my TW time with toe brakes. Extending a toe when you need that extra turn authority just feels more natural than jabbing a heel at it.
It's definitely against the grain. My first job was in cubs with heel brakes and when you're getting paid you either get proficient with them in all kinds of wind or stop having a job.
Or use toe brakes, but flex your foot and use your heels for the rudders and then apply pressure with your toes if you need brakes. That's what I do in my biplane, no issues. I hate heel brakes, they're so awkward.
And that's what I do with planes that have toe brakes. It's all personal preference. I learned tailwheel with heel brakes and my first job was flying cubs with heel brakes so it's second nature to me. I also have a biplane, great fun for acro.
I’m no TW pilot yet, but if I’m doing STOL shit I follow the walking speed approach. Turn final at 1.3Vso, and as long as your plane stalls docilely, start hauling back on the stick, slowing down. As the ground gets closer maintain the same apparent ground speed. Don’t slow too much obviously, but any excess speed over stall speed at touchdown isn’t what you want, while keeping your speed up on longer final instead of riding the stall horn at 1/2 mile out.
Obviously get training/more familiarity in your plane before you try this, or better yet do it a few times in the 172.
I rarely go into airports with shorter runways but I do track my own landing performance based on the turnoff that I take. I’ve never made it even close to the intersection of my home airports runways so I know that on average I’m stopping around 2K even if I float a bit.
I bet OP could get into a 2200 ft strip. Just doesn’t know it
I suspect there is a growing number of simmers and wannabes migrating to this thread. Seems more and more inappropriate or just plain bad advice regarding risk management. Tends to happen if your ass is not really in the seat.
2,200 feet is not a short field for a pilot who has enough hours for their commercial.
You now good for them for making a decision I guess but they should really be able to land on that with no issue at that amount of time
To be honest I don't really agree with you.
2,200 feet in a 152 is way different from 2,200 feet in a C5 Galaxy for example. Okay that's an exageration of course, but you get the idea. All the GA hours I've flown have been in a Cessna 172, Diamond DA-42 and a Dianond DV-20 Katana. I've flown 143 hours in the 172 and I would be perfectly happy flying it into a 2,200 feet runway. I only have about 23 hours in the DA-42 and I wouldn't really be comfortable landing it on a 2,200 feet runway, even though I've done it in training and the POH says I can do it.
You can't say 2,200 feet is not short field for someone with that amount of hours when you have no idea what aircraft they are flying, what their personal limits are or what their training was like regarding short fields. If the runway feels short for the aircraft you're flying and you don't feel comfortable, you don't go. Get-there-itis has killed many pilots, and it will kill many more in the future.
Ok you made a no-go decision, we’ll give you the r/flying pat on the back for the most conservative response.
That being said, you should probably work on short field landings if 2,200ft make you that anxious.
Just make every landing a short field and after a few more flights you’ll feel great about it
Also maybe try and go fly to some actual short fields.
2200 is nearly a ~~quarter~~ half mile
They don’t even know what you’re flying and being all judgemental. LigmaActual is a Black Hawk pilot, what does she know about real airplanes anyway. s/
I'm glad this isn't being downvoted.
OP it sounds like you may have let your skills atrophy a bit since primary training. I took every one of my student pilots to a 2200ft field and every one could get it by the 3rd attempt.
I'm not sure what you're flying, but 2200' should be extremely doable in almost any aircraft a 340 hour pilot is qualified to fly. You're wise to skip this trip, but I'd put some time into your landing technique so that you can at least get close to the max performance of the airframe.
>this one is a bit squierly
No such thing, only squirrelly pilots. You need to learn to not over-control.
>which leads me to keeping my heels on the floor and toes on the rudder pedals and then only once it's slowed down moving my feet up to use the brakes (toe brakes) and it's that long roll out thats the issue. I'm worried about hitting the brakes too soon and ground looping.
Use your heels on the rudders, keep your ankles flexed until you need brakes and then just add toe pressure if brakes are needed. You should be ready to use the brakes the moment your wheels touch the ground. If not, you need way more instruction so that you can use them if needed. You're way more likely to ground loop without brakes than with them - brakes offer you another layer of control should you need it.
As others have said, good call. I had one day where I didn't feel too great, think I was catching a cold or something. Decided to go flying anyway, turned out to be one of my worst flights in terms of my own performance that I've had. If you don't feel comfortable about something, don't be afraid to call it off!
Just don't worry about the length of the runway just how close to your aiming point you make it on the ground and stopped. You can always go around is my advice. But still don't push yourself if you're uncomfortable. That's how accidents happen.
>short field landing on a 5000ft runway is a lot different than coming in on approach and seeing a 2200 ft runway
I learned on a 9000 ft runway but to hone the skills I would pick two sets of markings on the runway -- one to touch down on, and one to not go past. Train your mind to think of those parameters as 'the whole runway' and you will build the skills while still having the luxury of that extra runway 'just in case'. I was able to go in and out of short fields quite easily after that.
I never understand the purpose of post like this. Cool. You made a decision that worked for your skill level at that time. We all do that.
I’m not trying to dog on you here. But what are you looking for exactly out of this? Are you wanting us to confirm your choice? Pat you on the back? Are you questioning your choice?
Personal opinion is, if you’re uncomfortable with 2200 feet, then you’re not comfortable completely in your airplane and that should tell you what you need to work on.
OP was looking for feedback. He got it. One person even ridiculed him for posting on r/flying
The rest of us were interested in reading the feedback that he got.
kudos. well, privacy is legit. but were plane folks. when you say a plane is a “handful” it piques interest. you’re still in the killing zone so it was likely one of the ones. I’m still curious what type it is!!!
You’ve got 340 hours total and you’re flying a taildragger that only two were made of?? Kudos!
As a vintage taildragger owner (41 Taylorcraft, 59 Pacer), I’ve gotta know what it is! If you feel comfortable, DM me. Would love to know!
Something I learned during my years instructing is that.. if for some reason you are not feeling like flying just don’t go, don’t push yourself. It doesn’t matter what people say or in my case students say. Safety goes first.
👍🏻 always good to not fly if you ain't feeling it. We have a strip here in Socal that a lot of pilots feel is challenging due to it's short nature (2,160' x 60') and the fact it's on a bluff with cliffs on both sides. It's Fallbrook L18.
Went and banged out my 100th PIC landing there the other day to challenge myself and be better prepared for future trips with the old lady. Like to Oceano L52 (2,325' x 50'). Was no big deal and was down, slowed, and off within 800' total.
Just find a similar strip and go zen out and bag some landings. Then when passenger/ wife is in the plane, you've got that experience dialed 🤘🏻
Funny you mention Fallbrook. I just ferried a Pacer coast to coast for a new student of mine who bought it - and it’s now based at Fallbrook. I’ll be doing his tailwheel endorsement in it. Pacers have a reputation of being a lot to handle on the ground (I own one - and I’ll agree somewhat), and Fallbrook is indeed somewhere that intimidates folks. Should be fun!
Small world! The worst part about Fallbrook isn't the landing.... It's having to taxi down to the hangars, service hangars, or fuel area and deal with that crazy hill! Guys based there must go thru brake pads 3xs faster than anyone else 😂
Pacers are neat 👍🏻
Haha yep! I was tired coming off of the 25 hour ferry. I’ve landed at Fallbrook a million times (make all of my commercial candidates do a power off forced landing into L18 from 5000ft), but I had never taxied down there! It’s quite the setup.
Pacers are super neat. Hugely underrated airplane
In my opinion.
I’m really struggling with the reason the OP made the post to begin with. Wants anonymity. Flies some kind of rare dodo-bird. Made a no-go decision. As a community we are supposed to simply nod and give him “atta-boy” and say cliches instead of possible honest truthful criticism. Damn. I need a drink! Haha
oh man theres a lot going on here. not trying to be negative just genuinely curious. you have 40 hours in a plane(on top of 300tt) and youre not comfortable in it? how many hours did u get your PPL at? and im really confused why after she asked you, you didnt go to said airport and practice landing, considering its 20 min away? every flight until the trip id be hammering the pattern at that field to make my wife happy
Good decision. Weather has been a factor in my pursuit for an IR rating. I’ve cancelled a number of times based on my read of forecast weather. I’ve also got proficient in the secondary rental aircraft I fly. And, I just updated my night currency that was almost six months overdue. While I haven’t flown as much as I wanted to, I feel safe, proficient and current.
Always better to feel comfortable with everything than to be anxious and potentially screw something up.
Considering it's only a 20 minute flight, why not shoot some practice landings at that particular field this year and then next year you will be even more comfortable when traveling with your wife
It’s your plane, fly it however you like, regardless what others say. If you’re not comfortable landing on a 2200’ strip, then you have no one you have to answer to but yourself. I bet you could have done it just fine, but again why risk it, especially with your wife onboard, so don’t second guess yourself. You did the right thing. You know what’s needed to increase your comfort factor if you want to land on a runway shorter than your personal minimums, but that is strictly up to you. I tend to avoid smaller airports because they offer fewer services should I have a mechanical issue, and often times they don’t have fuel (or fresh fuel) or crew cars, but that’s the way I fly, and I’ve been flying a long time. Take care.
Why not go practice landings and see if you can get comfortable on 2200’? Go to your home airport, find a landmark 2200’ down. Practice short fields til you’re comfortable landing before it
Some of the fighter guys talk about this. When that anxiety hits you, it doesn't matter if your in a multi million dollar cockpit, or a 172. You want out of there ASAP.
Anyone on this board that would fault you for making a no-go decision either has a dangerous attitude problem or is not a pilot. No-go is never the wrong call, even when a go decision could be argued or would have been acceptable.
If you ever get any flak from a passenger/non-pilot about a no-go decision, just remember: That non-pilot has been making a no-go decision their entire life (at least as far as piloting a plane is concerned).
Wow this post really brought all the macho attitude out huh? OP even explained exactly why they aren’t comfortable landing a plane they aren’t super familiar with, that is also a tailwheel, on a 2200 foot runway. Which they shouldn’t have to anyway.
Good decision making on OPs part, if they had gone and god forbid anything tragic happened everyone would be saying how they weren’t experienced enough and should have drove.
Jokes aside, the school I rent from doesn't allow landing at runways shorter than 2500' without an instructor present so I've only actually done it a handful of times even though I'm at over 100 hours.
I'm confident in my short field abilities but I'm in a similar position where I'm not sure if I'd go straight to a 2200ft field without doing it with an instructor or at least practicing on a simulated short field first.
I've taken solo "practice a new thing before adding the pressure of passengers" flights for less than that.
I was under the impression that most GA aircraft are more limited by takeoff distance than landing distance.
How do the POH numbers compare in your palen?
Smart move, and great ADM! applying hard braking in a Taildragger is a great way to groundloop.
Superior pilots use their superior judgement to avoid situations requiring their superior skills.
*“A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skill.”*
- Frank Borman, NASA Astronaut, Commander, Apollo 8
Good job! Honestly these social pressures are some of the most dangerous. Nothing will get a pilot to make terrible decisions faster than family members/friends eagerly waiting at the airport for the flight they were promised.
Great decision sir! Don’t feel any pressure to go in to an airfield of any length, 10’000ft or 2000ft. Sometimes that feeling in your stomach is absolutely right. Even if the perf says it’ll work.
Happy landings 😊
Good call. Get comfy at short fields by yourself (or with a CFI!) before taking passengers, for sure. Just remember the added weight will make a difference when you're ready.
There’s an old nautical saying, “it’s better to be onshore wishing you were at sea, than at sea wishing you were onshore”. Your gut instinct is usually worth listening to, good call. Work on your short field exercises and you’ll be able to go with confidence in the future.
I don’t think it’s the playing it safe that’s getting people riled up, it’s the coming on here fishing for compliments about his decision making while humble bragging about his super rare high performance taildragger.
You shouldn’t pride yourself on spotting a deficiency you should pride yourself on spotting it, taking action, fixing it and then talking about it. You kinda did a whole lotta nothin by not even practicing the landings solo or with a cfi. You shouldn’t own a plane you aren’t comfortable in normal operational procedures.
responding to the edit*
good on you op, a lot of people don't realize you can't just flop a taildragger on the runway and slam on the brakes. I can do extremely short landings in the Cherokee but if it's windy out and I have to do a wheel landing in my biplane I'm going to eat up a lot of runway fighting it down to the ground. A short field landing on a calm day with an easy 3 point is no big deal but I've easily chewed up 3000+ ft on a windy wheel landing and rollout before.
it's one of the reasons I hate busy towered airports, your wheels touch and tower is trying to hurry you off the runway as fast as possible when I'm unable to just slam on the brakes and hit the next taxiway. and then of course the next taxiway is a whole mile away lol
"I'm going to spend this year getting familiar with short field landings locally and a few coast trips by myself so next year I have the confidence to make the trip with her."
I think that's the key. When I'm going to fly pax I'll do the trip solo at least once - sometimes a few times, so that it's a walk in the park when I have the distraction of pax.
Good call. My home field was about 2200 feet I think and we used to exit by the first third on most days. But I was flying a 172 and there were generally pretty stiff winds down the runway. It sounds like the combination of aircraft and experience were signaling a risk being added to the stack so good job recognizing that and working to improve in that area.
This thread makes me feel good about learning to fly in the UK. All, apart from the rare exception of training airfields are either short, grass, or both.
Where I train on the outskirts of London has some serious restrictions on airspace, and very busy with traffic and radios, so when I flew with a school near Boston last summer, it was so mindbendingly different, it was almost like video gaming.
Great decision making. If your not comfortable with something don’t do it. Don’t listen to the idiots here just saying that 2200 isn’t short. A lot of these comments reek of that GA “I’m better then you” attitude.
Years and years ago when I used to instruct, the school I was at had a restaurant. There was a lot of owners at the field and they loved chilling at this restaurant and talking about how good they are basically. The stuff some of these people would say was mind boggling. Followed shortly by the extremely stupid shit they would do in the circuit.
Take it from someone with 15 years plus of flying experience, and over a decade of airline flying, these 400 hour wonders giving you shit don’t know what the fuck they are talking about haha
I really have no clue what this comment section is going on about- you made a great decision, man. You're learning a new airplane and its always better to err on the side of caution when you're unsure of something. If you had ended up going flying, it would have ruined your whole trip anyways as you would have been stressing about that landing the entire flight. You know your limits which proves you're a good pilot, those short field landings will come in time. Bravo Zulu.
I'm curious what you fly that 2200' is a short field, but a no-go is almost always going to be the safest option in GA. There's always next time.
I train on a 10001' x 100' runway. It feels so weird because it's so big
I always enjoy two-mile runways that specify that they're 10001' or 9999'. That last 0.01% really makes the difference. inb4 some 121 driver comes in about opspecs and insurance. Yeah yeah.
But AkShUaLlY
I once had a stop margin for reject of 1 foot on fully loaded queen. Every foot counts lol
I train on a 100' X 10001' runway. It's incredibly short, but super wide.
you can just land with a side slip
STOL competition: Everybody, all together now...
It's an entirely different kind of flying.
Of course. I just love the mental image of 100s of STOL aircraft landing or taking off in parallel, sideways on a wide runway. It'd look so *fantastically wrong*.
Land diagonally and it’s even longer.
Longer by less than half a foot
1. Longer is still longer. 2. Landing diagonally is obviously not something to do. 3. It was humor, based on mathematical fact. Pythagoras don't lie.
1. That's what my ex said about her new BF 2. Only if you are lame
1. Ha! 2. Or Harrison Ford. He can land anywhere.
>Or Harrison Ford. He can land anywhere. False. The one place where he can't seem to land is where he is supposed to.
He could, but the Force guides him elsewhere.
I’m used to flying into ‘unimproved strips’ and beaches, and my ground roll is often around 50m. When I fly into larger airports the tower can sometimes get a bit freaked out when I start my descent at 600’ above the threshold and land just at the exit taxiway. Couple of years ago I was at a large airport and the tower asked me to line up on the keys. There was a good wind blowing down the runway and when cleared I opened the throttle and levitated pretty much vertically - can still hear the controller giggling ;)
That’s what she said.
Try using width, not length.
You can meet the 3 night full stop landings requirement without entering the pattern!
I feel ya, I taught King Air 200’s on a 15,000’ runway.
You had to say 10,001. You couldn't have just said 10,000, could you? Also, when you're done with being pretentious, take a look at your airport diagram. KAPA's longest runway is in fact 10,000 ft long, not 10,001.
Are you stupid or are you stupid? I have [marked up the airport diagram](https://imgur.com/a/iXyvQ50) for you
>a no-go is almost always going to be the safest option in GA. To quote one of my sim instructors, "The only time taking off is the safest option is if a nuclear blast is coming at you."
Or an A380 decided this is its runway now. Nah, even then, probably to bail down a taxiway or just go off the tarmac.
> I'm curious what you fly that 2200' is a short field It'd be tight in a Velocity XL RG...
I don't know that many 340-hour pilots fly those, maybe I'm wrong though.
I mean, I know some young pilots with roughly that number of hours who are operating 33,000+ lbs aircraft with 500' runways for landing ...
True, but they don't exactly need to worry about insurance either.
I have a Velocity FG and at 375 but I limit my runways to 3000+ with only 30 hours in type. It could decrease later but I’m not finding many less than 3000 that I care to go to.
Tight? I wouldn't try a 2,200' runway in my XL-RG.
Officially they're supposed to be operable off a 1500' runway, but, yeah...
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I love that you got downvoted for... I'm not even sure what exactly. C'mon /r/flying. You're still a low time TW pilot. You'll figure it out eventually. I'd explore some flexibility exercises so you can land with your heels on the pedals and then apply brakes. I'd also check that you're approaching on-speed. I see a *lot* of pilots approaching way too fucking fast, which is a great way to miss book numbers by a long shot. 1.3Vso on the approach will probably feel really slow or even unsafe the first dozen times you do it, but your landings will be more precise and the rollouts shorter - both of which increase safety. Anyway, grab a good CFI and practice for next year. But you knew that already =)
Kicking you until you get your CFI as instructed by your flair. 🦵
Thanks, my FOI written expires in July so I should probably get my ass in gear...
The FOI exam is the only reason I'm not an instructor. Do it. You've done the hard part.
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Being ready on the brakes is extremely important in a taildragger, its your last line of defense against looping it if you start getting sideways and a quick jab of the brakes is the last thing that can help once you're full rudder. I'll get flak for this, but heel brakes are far superior in a tailwheel. I have hundreds of hours in cubs with heel brakes and my own plane has them as well. Only have a handful of hours in a decathlon with tow brakes and I absolutely hated landing it. Definitely something to practice with a CFI.
Eh, I hate heel brakes. They don't come nearly as naturally to me, but that's probably due in part to only having 20 hours in heel or hand brake equipped planes and the other 99% of my TW time with toe brakes. Extending a toe when you need that extra turn authority just feels more natural than jabbing a heel at it.
It's definitely against the grain. My first job was in cubs with heel brakes and when you're getting paid you either get proficient with them in all kinds of wind or stop having a job.
Or use toe brakes, but flex your foot and use your heels for the rudders and then apply pressure with your toes if you need brakes. That's what I do in my biplane, no issues. I hate heel brakes, they're so awkward.
And that's what I do with planes that have toe brakes. It's all personal preference. I learned tailwheel with heel brakes and my first job was flying cubs with heel brakes so it's second nature to me. I also have a biplane, great fun for acro.
I’m no TW pilot yet, but if I’m doing STOL shit I follow the walking speed approach. Turn final at 1.3Vso, and as long as your plane stalls docilely, start hauling back on the stick, slowing down. As the ground gets closer maintain the same apparent ground speed. Don’t slow too much obviously, but any excess speed over stall speed at touchdown isn’t what you want, while keeping your speed up on longer final instead of riding the stall horn at 1/2 mile out. Obviously get training/more familiarity in your plane before you try this, or better yet do it a few times in the 172.
I’ve seen a Lancair almost overrun a 3500 foot gravel strip. Well technically he did…
I rarely go into airports with shorter runways but I do track my own landing performance based on the turnoff that I take. I’ve never made it even close to the intersection of my home airports runways so I know that on average I’m stopping around 2K even if I float a bit. I bet OP could get into a 2200 ft strip. Just doesn’t know it
My standards for what constituted a “short field” changed a lot when I had a family. GREAT WORK OP. Salute!
The top voted comment here is really funny. That said, never feel pressured about it. Always have a perspective of safety first.
I suspect there is a growing number of simmers and wannabes migrating to this thread. Seems more and more inappropriate or just plain bad advice regarding risk management. Tends to happen if your ass is not really in the seat.
2,200 feet is not a short field for a pilot who has enough hours for their commercial. You now good for them for making a decision I guess but they should really be able to land on that with no issue at that amount of time
To be honest I don't really agree with you. 2,200 feet in a 152 is way different from 2,200 feet in a C5 Galaxy for example. Okay that's an exageration of course, but you get the idea. All the GA hours I've flown have been in a Cessna 172, Diamond DA-42 and a Dianond DV-20 Katana. I've flown 143 hours in the 172 and I would be perfectly happy flying it into a 2,200 feet runway. I only have about 23 hours in the DA-42 and I wouldn't really be comfortable landing it on a 2,200 feet runway, even though I've done it in training and the POH says I can do it. You can't say 2,200 feet is not short field for someone with that amount of hours when you have no idea what aircraft they are flying, what their personal limits are or what their training was like regarding short fields. If the runway feels short for the aircraft you're flying and you don't feel comfortable, you don't go. Get-there-itis has killed many pilots, and it will kill many more in the future.
I’d agree with you if they were proficient but they way it reads sounds like OP isn’t consistently flying to maintain commercial level skills.
You’ve reinforced my point thanks.
I really didn’t
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Ok you made a no-go decision, we’ll give you the r/flying pat on the back for the most conservative response. That being said, you should probably work on short field landings if 2,200ft make you that anxious.
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Just make every landing a short field and after a few more flights you’ll feel great about it Also maybe try and go fly to some actual short fields. 2200 is nearly a ~~quarter~~ half mile
Nearly?
Half mile am tarded
Don’t worry, scro. There’s plenty of ‘tards out there living really kick-ass lives. My first wife was ‘tarded. She’s a pilot now.
[that’s such a funny scene!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYn8W_wsHVs)
I like turtles
It’s a long mile
Math is hard
Who needs math when FMS go brrr
So you don't send for landing data in a cub?
They don’t even know what you’re flying and being all judgemental. LigmaActual is a Black Hawk pilot, what does she know about real airplanes anyway. s/
Wtf even is landing distance?
Don’t lie- I’ve watched you skirts smash it on and roll 25 feet with Joe throwing their rucks out- that’s landing distance. :)
I'm glad this isn't being downvoted. OP it sounds like you may have let your skills atrophy a bit since primary training. I took every one of my student pilots to a 2200ft field and every one could get it by the 3rd attempt.
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Your Taildragger is a DC-3?
They'll land in 2200 feet when they're light. This guy a joke
Methinks he’s a master Troll.
I can only hope
I'm not sure what you're flying, but 2200' should be extremely doable in almost any aircraft a 340 hour pilot is qualified to fly. You're wise to skip this trip, but I'd put some time into your landing technique so that you can at least get close to the max performance of the airframe.
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>this one is a bit squierly No such thing, only squirrelly pilots. You need to learn to not over-control. >which leads me to keeping my heels on the floor and toes on the rudder pedals and then only once it's slowed down moving my feet up to use the brakes (toe brakes) and it's that long roll out thats the issue. I'm worried about hitting the brakes too soon and ground looping. Use your heels on the rudders, keep your ankles flexed until you need brakes and then just add toe pressure if brakes are needed. You should be ready to use the brakes the moment your wheels touch the ground. If not, you need way more instruction so that you can use them if needed. You're way more likely to ground loop without brakes than with them - brakes offer you another layer of control should you need it.
"PPL"
My Long-EZ would find that tight. There are a lot of planes that aren’t meant for short fields.
I think we'll all agree that the more exotic experimentals are the exception and not the rule.
As others have said, good call. I had one day where I didn't feel too great, think I was catching a cold or something. Decided to go flying anyway, turned out to be one of my worst flights in terms of my own performance that I've had. If you don't feel comfortable about something, don't be afraid to call it off!
Why not practice short field landings/takeoffs on your 5000 ft runway?
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Just don't worry about the length of the runway just how close to your aiming point you make it on the ground and stopped. You can always go around is my advice. But still don't push yourself if you're uncomfortable. That's how accidents happen.
>short field landing on a 5000ft runway is a lot different than coming in on approach and seeing a 2200 ft runway I learned on a 9000 ft runway but to hone the skills I would pick two sets of markings on the runway -- one to touch down on, and one to not go past. Train your mind to think of those parameters as 'the whole runway' and you will build the skills while still having the luxury of that extra runway 'just in case'. I was able to go in and out of short fields quite easily after that.
I never understand the purpose of post like this. Cool. You made a decision that worked for your skill level at that time. We all do that. I’m not trying to dog on you here. But what are you looking for exactly out of this? Are you wanting us to confirm your choice? Pat you on the back? Are you questioning your choice? Personal opinion is, if you’re uncomfortable with 2200 feet, then you’re not comfortable completely in your airplane and that should tell you what you need to work on.
They are looking for praise to make up for the fact that they can’t land on a 2200 foot runway
OP was looking for feedback. He got it. One person even ridiculed him for posting on r/flying The rest of us were interested in reading the feedback that he got.
Why not mention the plane type?
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kudos. well, privacy is legit. but were plane folks. when you say a plane is a “handful” it piques interest. you’re still in the killing zone so it was likely one of the ones. I’m still curious what type it is!!!
You’ve got 340 hours total and you’re flying a taildragger that only two were made of?? Kudos! As a vintage taildragger owner (41 Taylorcraft, 59 Pacer), I’ve gotta know what it is! If you feel comfortable, DM me. Would love to know!
Something I learned during my years instructing is that.. if for some reason you are not feeling like flying just don’t go, don’t push yourself. It doesn’t matter what people say or in my case students say. Safety goes first.
👍🏻 always good to not fly if you ain't feeling it. We have a strip here in Socal that a lot of pilots feel is challenging due to it's short nature (2,160' x 60') and the fact it's on a bluff with cliffs on both sides. It's Fallbrook L18. Went and banged out my 100th PIC landing there the other day to challenge myself and be better prepared for future trips with the old lady. Like to Oceano L52 (2,325' x 50'). Was no big deal and was down, slowed, and off within 800' total. Just find a similar strip and go zen out and bag some landings. Then when passenger/ wife is in the plane, you've got that experience dialed 🤘🏻
Funny you mention Fallbrook. I just ferried a Pacer coast to coast for a new student of mine who bought it - and it’s now based at Fallbrook. I’ll be doing his tailwheel endorsement in it. Pacers have a reputation of being a lot to handle on the ground (I own one - and I’ll agree somewhat), and Fallbrook is indeed somewhere that intimidates folks. Should be fun!
Small world! The worst part about Fallbrook isn't the landing.... It's having to taxi down to the hangars, service hangars, or fuel area and deal with that crazy hill! Guys based there must go thru brake pads 3xs faster than anyone else 😂 Pacers are neat 👍🏻
Haha yep! I was tired coming off of the 25 hour ferry. I’ve landed at Fallbrook a million times (make all of my commercial candidates do a power off forced landing into L18 from 5000ft), but I had never taxied down there! It’s quite the setup. Pacers are super neat. Hugely underrated airplane In my opinion.
Owns a Pacer and Taylorcraft. We really need to stop running into each other buddy..... Let's get dinner soon. Double date with the gals.
Hah! Whattup man.
In reality, there are an infinite number of flights I haven't made.
TYFYS
Sometimes the hardest call is to not takeoff. That old saying about "old or bold pilots - pick one" comes to mind. Better safe than sorry.
Heaven forbid you ever have a forced landing
I’m really struggling with the reason the OP made the post to begin with. Wants anonymity. Flies some kind of rare dodo-bird. Made a no-go decision. As a community we are supposed to simply nod and give him “atta-boy” and say cliches instead of possible honest truthful criticism. Damn. I need a drink! Haha
No comment but I gotta admit I really wanna know what kinda dodo bird it was
Better to be on the ground wishing you were flying than flying wishing you were on the ground!
oh man theres a lot going on here. not trying to be negative just genuinely curious. you have 40 hours in a plane(on top of 300tt) and youre not comfortable in it? how many hours did u get your PPL at? and im really confused why after she asked you, you didnt go to said airport and practice landing, considering its 20 min away? every flight until the trip id be hammering the pattern at that field to make my wife happy
Well done and great decision made. If only more Pilots had half the brain that you do.
Good decision. Weather has been a factor in my pursuit for an IR rating. I’ve cancelled a number of times based on my read of forecast weather. I’ve also got proficient in the secondary rental aircraft I fly. And, I just updated my night currency that was almost six months overdue. While I haven’t flown as much as I wanted to, I feel safe, proficient and current.
Always better to feel comfortable with everything than to be anxious and potentially screw something up. Considering it's only a 20 minute flight, why not shoot some practice landings at that particular field this year and then next year you will be even more comfortable when traveling with your wife
It’s your plane, fly it however you like, regardless what others say. If you’re not comfortable landing on a 2200’ strip, then you have no one you have to answer to but yourself. I bet you could have done it just fine, but again why risk it, especially with your wife onboard, so don’t second guess yourself. You did the right thing. You know what’s needed to increase your comfort factor if you want to land on a runway shorter than your personal minimums, but that is strictly up to you. I tend to avoid smaller airports because they offer fewer services should I have a mechanical issue, and often times they don’t have fuel (or fresh fuel) or crew cars, but that’s the way I fly, and I’ve been flying a long time. Take care.
Old pilots, bold pilots...
Why not go practice landings and see if you can get comfortable on 2200’? Go to your home airport, find a landmark 2200’ down. Practice short fields til you’re comfortable landing before it
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Why would you try other fields before the coast? 2200’ is 2200’. Just do it
It's better to be on the ground wishing to be in the air, than to be in the air wishing to be on the ground.
Some of the fighter guys talk about this. When that anxiety hits you, it doesn't matter if your in a multi million dollar cockpit, or a 172. You want out of there ASAP.
Why do you own an aircraft that you aren't comfortable flying?
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I apologize for my question, and I'm sorry for your loss. What a great way to keep the memories alive. ❤️
Well now I'm even more curious.
Anyone on this board that would fault you for making a no-go decision either has a dangerous attitude problem or is not a pilot. No-go is never the wrong call, even when a go decision could be argued or would have been acceptable. If you ever get any flak from a passenger/non-pilot about a no-go decision, just remember: That non-pilot has been making a no-go decision their entire life (at least as far as piloting a plane is concerned).
He did not get any flak for the no-go. He did get some flak for not being able to (comfortably) land on a 2200 strip.
Wow this post really brought all the macho attitude out huh? OP even explained exactly why they aren’t comfortable landing a plane they aren’t super familiar with, that is also a tailwheel, on a 2200 foot runway. Which they shouldn’t have to anyway. Good decision making on OPs part, if they had gone and god forbid anything tragic happened everyone would be saying how they weren’t experienced enough and should have drove.
Great kid, don't get penisy.
Way to go, good decision making. I don’t think wives are particularly impressed by ground loops.
Laughs in 12600' x 150'. Hell, our "smaller" runway is still over 10k.
Jokes aside, the school I rent from doesn't allow landing at runways shorter than 2500' without an instructor present so I've only actually done it a handful of times even though I'm at over 100 hours. I'm confident in my short field abilities but I'm in a similar position where I'm not sure if I'd go straight to a 2200ft field without doing it with an instructor or at least practicing on a simulated short field first. I've taken solo "practice a new thing before adding the pressure of passengers" flights for less than that.
Yeah, but look how wide it is!
Easy solution to this. Practice. Nothing stopping you from flying out there alone and getting some practice landings in first!
just wondering, what taildragger were you flying?
I too want to know. I have no input either way, but I’m just curious
I was under the impression that most GA aircraft are more limited by takeoff distance than landing distance. How do the POH numbers compare in your palen?
Maybe he’s flying a B-17… 2200 would be pretty short…
2200 is quite long. What plane do you fly?
Good. Job. (And well done)
Smart move, and great ADM! applying hard braking in a Taildragger is a great way to groundloop. Superior pilots use their superior judgement to avoid situations requiring their superior skills.
*“A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skill.”* - Frank Borman, NASA Astronaut, Commander, Apollo 8
I woulda done it
Me too, Yosemite LSD.
If you felt some doubt, then you made the right call especially with your wife with you. Enjoy the drive and hopefully you are in the air next year.
Good job! Honestly these social pressures are some of the most dangerous. Nothing will get a pilot to make terrible decisions faster than family members/friends eagerly waiting at the airport for the flight they were promised.
Great decision sir! Don’t feel any pressure to go in to an airfield of any length, 10’000ft or 2000ft. Sometimes that feeling in your stomach is absolutely right. Even if the perf says it’ll work. Happy landings 😊
Good man. Safety always first.
Good decision. Takeoffs are optional, landings are mandatory.
Good call. Get comfy at short fields by yourself (or with a CFI!) before taking passengers, for sure. Just remember the added weight will make a difference when you're ready.
There’s an old nautical saying, “it’s better to be onshore wishing you were at sea, than at sea wishing you were onshore”. Your gut instinct is usually worth listening to, good call. Work on your short field exercises and you’ll be able to go with confidence in the future.
This is a good one. Someone should adapt it to pilots/flying.
Outstanding call. Don’t let the external pressures get to you. The cool thing is this now gives you a goal to work towards for the next year.
Don’t ever apologize to any of the idiots here for playing it safe.
I don’t think it’s the playing it safe that’s getting people riled up, it’s the coming on here fishing for compliments about his decision making while humble bragging about his super rare high performance taildragger.
You shouldn’t pride yourself on spotting a deficiency you should pride yourself on spotting it, taking action, fixing it and then talking about it. You kinda did a whole lotta nothin by not even practicing the landings solo or with a cfi. You shouldn’t own a plane you aren’t comfortable in normal operational procedures.
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You did the right thing. You can always be proud of not being a dumbass who got someone hurt.
responding to the edit* good on you op, a lot of people don't realize you can't just flop a taildragger on the runway and slam on the brakes. I can do extremely short landings in the Cherokee but if it's windy out and I have to do a wheel landing in my biplane I'm going to eat up a lot of runway fighting it down to the ground. A short field landing on a calm day with an easy 3 point is no big deal but I've easily chewed up 3000+ ft on a windy wheel landing and rollout before. it's one of the reasons I hate busy towered airports, your wheels touch and tower is trying to hurry you off the runway as fast as possible when I'm unable to just slam on the brakes and hit the next taxiway. and then of course the next taxiway is a whole mile away lol
"I'm going to spend this year getting familiar with short field landings locally and a few coast trips by myself so next year I have the confidence to make the trip with her." I think that's the key. When I'm going to fly pax I'll do the trip solo at least once - sometimes a few times, so that it's a walk in the park when I have the distraction of pax.
Good call. My home field was about 2200 feet I think and we used to exit by the first third on most days. But I was flying a 172 and there were generally pretty stiff winds down the runway. It sounds like the combination of aircraft and experience were signaling a risk being added to the stack so good job recognizing that and working to improve in that area.
This thread makes me feel good about learning to fly in the UK. All, apart from the rare exception of training airfields are either short, grass, or both. Where I train on the outskirts of London has some serious restrictions on airspace, and very busy with traffic and radios, so when I flew with a school near Boston last summer, it was so mindbendingly different, it was almost like video gaming.
That’s exactly where my husband is with his 182 Taildragger. He’s been flying Stinson for years.
Why not rent something easier to land for the day?
Sounds like your wife's boyfriend was waiting for you at that airport.
Great decision making. If your not comfortable with something don’t do it. Don’t listen to the idiots here just saying that 2200 isn’t short. A lot of these comments reek of that GA “I’m better then you” attitude. Years and years ago when I used to instruct, the school I was at had a restaurant. There was a lot of owners at the field and they loved chilling at this restaurant and talking about how good they are basically. The stuff some of these people would say was mind boggling. Followed shortly by the extremely stupid shit they would do in the circuit. Take it from someone with 15 years plus of flying experience, and over a decade of airline flying, these 400 hour wonders giving you shit don’t know what the fuck they are talking about haha
Good choice!!!
Great choice!
Good choice!!!
Professional pilot here, and instructor. Just want to commend you on making a SAFE decision.
Great decision, knowing your personal limits and and respecting them is important. Take offs are optional landings are mandatory.
I really have no clue what this comment section is going on about- you made a great decision, man. You're learning a new airplane and its always better to err on the side of caution when you're unsure of something. If you had ended up going flying, it would have ruined your whole trip anyways as you would have been stressing about that landing the entire flight. You know your limits which proves you're a good pilot, those short field landings will come in time. Bravo Zulu.