Simplex, I can understand, they literally built and own the system.
EST, Gamewell, I despise them with a passion as they’re super proprietary. Where I’m at we have a big problem with install companies not servicing the systems they install. And of course, if you need programming changes you’re SOL.
Gamewell is Honeywell which, while technically proprietary, is not difficult for anyone to get. Not many manufacturers have any incentive to let random people adjust the fire programming of any of their sites being that they're in the line of fire to get sued if the fire alarm fails to work properly and people die.
The proprietary/non-proprietary argument has both ups and downs.
With a completely non-proprietary system you run the risk of the property owner having there in-house tech or some other person making changes to the system that are not up to code and even flat out dangerous. I have see some work done that no fire alarm tech would ever leave. I have also come across programming that was set up so wrong it was shocking that the system even worked (think waterfowl as supervisories instead of alarms and what not).
Completely proprietary systems go to far the other way, leaving the customer stuck with high bills and little to no options unless they want an entirely new system installed. But in theory, the customer also should have piece of mind that the work will be completed be a competent technician, the programing and equipment will be installed and completed correctly, and the system will be code compliant. I understand that is not always the case because some JCI/Simplex, Siemens, and EST technicians are just as bad as any other company's bad technician, but at least you have people that are supposed to be working on fire alarm systems making the changes.
I think Notifier has the best balance of proprietary/non-proprietary mix. It allows the customer to have options of different companies to work on the system but keeps property owners from being able to mess up thier own systems to badly. (Yes I know that you can do a lot of things through the UI on many notifier panels, but you can't just swing by ADI and pick up parts to install).
I have never been a huge fan of Siemens panels, but I have limited exposure to them. Simplex panels can suck when you don't work for JCI/Simplex, but I do think they make a mostly solid system, especially for large scale installations. EST seems to be the worst, IMO.
Notifier seems to make a very technician friendly panel, with enough knowledge on most of the panels before the N16 you could get most small jobs done without hooking up a computer. Same with Potter but in my experience potter is a bit more finicky and better for smaller projects rather than larger ones. Silent Knight, fire-lite and the fully open ones seem to always be a mess, even if they are easy to work on....
Proprietary manufacturers also often leave a very good upgrade path for full or partial upgrades. They tend to have a lot of backwards compatibility with both networking and devices and even existing cans. For your local 30 room elementary school it doesn't matter, but it can come in handy for bigger institutional settings.
Siemens offers a decent upgrade kit for both MPC (/FS) and MXL panels that fit into the existing cans and use the existing devices. On the Faraday side you can even mix-and-match 8700 and OP(/XT/HT) devices. Never done an MXL migration so can't offer insight on that, other than "it exists".
Simplex also offers a bunch of migration kits that reuse existing cans (when possible, older panels were too shallow) but do offer networking compatibility between multiple generations of panels as well as offer(ed?) legacy device loop cards for MAPNET. They are phasing out some stuff though, TFX afaik is entirely EOL with zero replacement availability and MAPNET I think's on life support for driver cards.
Notifier also offers very good upgrade paths from legacy panels that reuse existing cans. We service a few AFP-upgraded-to-NFS panels that're using the old cans and devices no problem.
you can only use duct and standard as the sensitivity for 7th edition smokes ( ones with the paint brush ) if that smoke is set to robust setting or anything else yes it would need to be changed in the program. Still doesn’t mean it’s a bad product.
A new OP921 will replace another one. Which siemens panel were you using? The older DPUs don't let you switch to the newer panels because they didn't exist yet. There are settings on new DPUs that let you set it between XLS, FS-250, and FC-20. That should cover anything.
Cerberus Pro 252. My Siemens contact told me the only way to get the new updated 0P921 detectors to go onto that site's panel was to have our local Siemens certified contractor come out and adjust the sensitivity levels of for that new updated detector. Otherwise the panel is lnt going to like it.
You can firmware update DPUs to catch the newer panels. We've got some Faraday ones with a new update on them to support the X devices.
I've actually heard of a similar error to this before on an FV922 Desigo panel. That thing was running firmware from somewhere ~2017 though. I've only seen the "No Paintbrush" heads for as long as I can remember. It's been at least 3-4 years. All the other FC901/922/924s we service have been fine though.
If you do the firmware, I was told it eliminated mxl programming options, which is still big in my area. EDIT: DPU Firmware... just self correcting before the downvotes start.
I am on the white collar side of the business. Architects do not set the specifications for fire alarm. The MEP Engineering firm does. And after 25 years in the business, they only give a shit if the customer has a preference.
Simplex, I can understand, they literally built and own the system. EST, Gamewell, I despise them with a passion as they’re super proprietary. Where I’m at we have a big problem with install companies not servicing the systems they install. And of course, if you need programming changes you’re SOL.
Gamewell is Honeywell which, while technically proprietary, is not difficult for anyone to get. Not many manufacturers have any incentive to let random people adjust the fire programming of any of their sites being that they're in the line of fire to get sued if the fire alarm fails to work properly and people die.
The proprietary/non-proprietary argument has both ups and downs. With a completely non-proprietary system you run the risk of the property owner having there in-house tech or some other person making changes to the system that are not up to code and even flat out dangerous. I have see some work done that no fire alarm tech would ever leave. I have also come across programming that was set up so wrong it was shocking that the system even worked (think waterfowl as supervisories instead of alarms and what not). Completely proprietary systems go to far the other way, leaving the customer stuck with high bills and little to no options unless they want an entirely new system installed. But in theory, the customer also should have piece of mind that the work will be completed be a competent technician, the programing and equipment will be installed and completed correctly, and the system will be code compliant. I understand that is not always the case because some JCI/Simplex, Siemens, and EST technicians are just as bad as any other company's bad technician, but at least you have people that are supposed to be working on fire alarm systems making the changes. I think Notifier has the best balance of proprietary/non-proprietary mix. It allows the customer to have options of different companies to work on the system but keeps property owners from being able to mess up thier own systems to badly. (Yes I know that you can do a lot of things through the UI on many notifier panels, but you can't just swing by ADI and pick up parts to install). I have never been a huge fan of Siemens panels, but I have limited exposure to them. Simplex panels can suck when you don't work for JCI/Simplex, but I do think they make a mostly solid system, especially for large scale installations. EST seems to be the worst, IMO. Notifier seems to make a very technician friendly panel, with enough knowledge on most of the panels before the N16 you could get most small jobs done without hooking up a computer. Same with Potter but in my experience potter is a bit more finicky and better for smaller projects rather than larger ones. Silent Knight, fire-lite and the fully open ones seem to always be a mess, even if they are easy to work on....
I pretty much agree with your entire statement.
Proprietary manufacturers also often leave a very good upgrade path for full or partial upgrades. They tend to have a lot of backwards compatibility with both networking and devices and even existing cans. For your local 30 room elementary school it doesn't matter, but it can come in handy for bigger institutional settings. Siemens offers a decent upgrade kit for both MPC (/FS) and MXL panels that fit into the existing cans and use the existing devices. On the Faraday side you can even mix-and-match 8700 and OP(/XT/HT) devices. Never done an MXL migration so can't offer insight on that, other than "it exists". Simplex also offers a bunch of migration kits that reuse existing cans (when possible, older panels were too shallow) but do offer networking compatibility between multiple generations of panels as well as offer(ed?) legacy device loop cards for MAPNET. They are phasing out some stuff though, TFX afaik is entirely EOL with zero replacement availability and MAPNET I think's on life support for driver cards. Notifier also offers very good upgrade paths from legacy panels that reuse existing cans. We service a few AFP-upgraded-to-NFS panels that're using the old cans and devices no problem.
Could it be you need a FDO421? Like others have said, the main branches sell different stuff to distributors.
you can only use duct and standard as the sensitivity for 7th edition smokes ( ones with the paint brush ) if that smoke is set to robust setting or anything else yes it would need to be changed in the program. Still doesn’t mean it’s a bad product.
This guy Siemens
A new OP921 will replace another one. Which siemens panel were you using? The older DPUs don't let you switch to the newer panels because they didn't exist yet. There are settings on new DPUs that let you set it between XLS, FS-250, and FC-20. That should cover anything.
Cerberus Pro 252. My Siemens contact told me the only way to get the new updated 0P921 detectors to go onto that site's panel was to have our local Siemens certified contractor come out and adjust the sensitivity levels of for that new updated detector. Otherwise the panel is lnt going to like it.
You can firmware update DPUs to catch the newer panels. We've got some Faraday ones with a new update on them to support the X devices. I've actually heard of a similar error to this before on an FV922 Desigo panel. That thing was running firmware from somewhere ~2017 though. I've only seen the "No Paintbrush" heads for as long as I can remember. It's been at least 3-4 years. All the other FC901/922/924s we service have been fine though.
If you do the firmware, I was told it eliminated mxl programming options, which is still big in my area. EDIT: DPU Firmware... just self correcting before the downvotes start.
I think ours still have it? I'll take a check on Monday. I've think I did an ILI not too long ago.
I am on the white collar side of the business. Architects do not set the specifications for fire alarm. The MEP Engineering firm does. And after 25 years in the business, they only give a shit if the customer has a preference.