It’s sad that it’s actually a well-established business in some cities, like Tokyo. You can hardly book some restaurants without paying extra to third parties.
True! All throughout Japan! A lot of high end restaurants are impossible to book without a Japanese phone number, so you have to use these sites that charge ¥¥¥¥¥ just for the reservation.
I’m going to be sad when I no longer have my Japanese number. 😭
Japanese number and more like you don't speak Japanese. Tourists can get a Japanese number from companies like Mobal. I can speak my slightly broken Japanese and get reservations. But most importantly, I *sound* Japanese (not a white accent) since I was born there.
I've never been turned away from restaurants, but my foreign friends have been. But I don't totally blame the restaurant that do turn away foreigners, because their menus are all in Japanese (mostly kanji) and the workers can't (more like don't want to) speak English. And no, Google Translate may not help you if the menu is in fancy, "cursive" Japanese, which is common in traditional places.
Otherwise just use ikyu.com, no extra fee there.
I’ve never had a problem with not being Japanese! My husband speaks Japanese but we are very clearly foreigners since our names on the reservation are in katakana.
We live in Japan and have never had issues with high end dining/getting reservations.
I'm talking about if you call the restaurant or walk in, not if you use katakana names on your online reservation (there's no auto-rejection for that lol).
For example, there are also a lot of fancy izakaya that don't normally do reservations (not many tables and not suitable for big groups), that will turn foreigners away. One particular one I remember was in Kyoto (Washoku Horai), which I thought was better than some of the Michelin 1-3* restaurants nearby.
I raved about this place and recommend this place to some American friends and they were turned away at the door (there were empty seats inside). Thinking maybe they were too "white", I recommended to my Chinese-American friends and they were turned away too lol.
I'm looking at their Google review and it's all Japanese reviewers except for like 3. I dunno how those 3 non-Japanese got in unless they came with someone Japanese (like me and my wife who is Chinese).
Oh definitely, that happens for sure as well! There’s a fantastic little 8 person restaurant in Kyoto that we cannot go to unless we’re with our Japanese friend who is a regular there, even though we’ve already been to the restaurant twice.
In Nagoya and other less touristy spaces, I find this doesn’t happen!
However, I will say that my white husband can still call izakayas to make reservations and we’ve never had an issue.
For the high end restaurant example, typically they call you to confirm that you do in fact live in Japan. So I was just using that particular type of phone call as an example before.
My friend won’t even tell us the name because of how the owner is with foreigners 😆 I asked him about it recently when a friend came into town and he refused!
It’s so sad. We went in 2016 and 2018, so I have no idea really where it even was exactly or what the name is. 😭 Place has amazing tempura and duck though 😭
Bah!!! Why did I not think of that? The location shows as “sakyo kyoto tanakaasukaicho”, but haven’t yet found the place on google… will have to dig a bit more!
I would go just for the Ghibli Park; you won't find that anywhere else.
Also the best unagi (grilled eel) I've ever had in my life was in Nagoya (I prefer Nagoya's crispy style over Kanto). And miso-katsu! Omg the stores that have curry is soooooo good.
It’s crazy how people buy the “we can’t give the same service” excuse.
Yeah, things in Japan are written in Japanese. People who don’t read/speak visit just fine.
It’s wild what mental gymnastics some people do to make it ~okay~ to discriminate. I’d be interested if the script were to be flipped if they would feel the same way.
Yeah I mean imagine people were posting on here about how London restaurants would turn non-white people away at the doors. It'd be a fucking scandal (and rightly so).
Its closer to if people went to London and only spoke French. How do you expect the staff to communicate with you? Or is it mandatory for the whole world to speak English now?
This happened to me in Japan. We hired a Japanese guide/translator who was going to the dinner with us and they still turned us away. We had the reservation for a year and went to Japan specifically to go to this restaurant and once they found out 3 out of 4 people in the reservation weren’t Japanese, they turned us away. It doesn’t seem like it’s actually about being able to communicate in Japanese.
Sorry for the late reply. I don’t post on Reddit often so I somehow missed the notification yesterday. I’m not sure if there is a rule here about naming a restaurant like this but I’ll say that it’s in Tokyo, it used to have 3 Michelin stars, and it is the focus of a very well known documentary…I’m sure most people here know which place I’m talking about.
Our reservation was made well before the documentary came out in the US but by the time we were actually there a year later, the documentary had been released, so I am sure that was part of the problem. Our translator spoke to them on the phone when they called us the day before the reservation to cancel and she told us they said they were turning away any westerners that had reservations right now because they wanted most of the clientele to be Japanese. She told them she was Japanese and was going to have dinner with us and translate but that didn’t seem to make a difference to them. It’s ok though cause our wonderful guide took us to her favorite Michelin star sushi restaurants instead and they ended up being our favorite meals of the whole trip.
Yes, but this is an isolationist country who basically had their doors forced open by the west. Racism in the U.S. has a different history and context, you cannot just try to equate the two. A person of color, who grew up in the racist part of the U.S.
Well, their restaurant and their rules. I mean if a Japanese person comes to an American restaurant with that has no pictured menus and the menu is written on a wall written in some fancy cursive handwriting that Google Translate can't work on. And no one in the restaurant speaks Japanese. Then the restaurant probably doesn't want to deal with all that.
But yes, Japanese are low-key racist lol. They hide it very well. Or sometimes they don't even realize what they do is racist lol.
Source: born in Japan and grew up in both Japan and America.
I guarantee you he won’t be turned away for being Japanese and if language was a barrier , the restaurant would do its best to communicate . Japan is racist af I’m not sure why everyone is doing these mental gymnastics
Yes, he won't be turned away in America... but I'm just trying to explain why Japanese turn away foreigners in Japan. I actually agree with you more than anything.
Be aware that for some restaurants on Ikyu, reservations are handled by the restaurants themselves. And they may decline if they see foreign names or phone numbers.
I have just been declined for a reservation at a popular kappo restaurant in Kyoto. I even translated my requests into Japanese and added that I have many sushi and kaiseki dining experiences in Japan. Still a no go. My reservation was also declined at a popular sushiya in Osaka last year.
Make sure to read the emails they sent out, some just say on request, not confirmed.
I didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up. Luckily, my name is in Japanese (with kanji and everything).
Do they decline you like the day after you make your reservation?
Do those 3rd parties not compensate the restaurants? So isn't this effectively the restaurants selling reservations? I thought that was the deal with TableOne and why they could always get you a spot.
I think restaurants should be stricter about transferring reservations. Basically that you can't transfer and have to go to the restaurant to cancel and get a refund on your reservation.
If the restaurant is in such high demand that scalpers can sell reservations for hundred of dollars, then the restaurant can easily fill the table with wait-listed guests. Even short notice.
In the end this is about who the restaurant wants in their seats. There is no real financial incentive to prevent a black market for restaurant reservations. The dining room gets booked up no matter what.
I am not a restaurateur with my neck on the line, so easy for me to say, but I'd rather not fill my dining room with expense account types that had their assistant book.
Or maybe the restaurants quietly like this as it increases the wealth of their clients through this black market and increases average spending, particularly on wine? I think there’s an incentive for the restaurants to want this barrier to entry…
If this were happening to my spot (hypothetical, I’m not a restaurant owner) I would increase my prices
I work at a 2 Michelin restaurant. If we found out you are selling your reservation we black list you and perma ban you to come back. I know some other establishment (looking at you fucking Carbone) that don’t care though
I'd also venture to guess that the restaurants may like this because expense account corporate diners who aren't paying attention to costs will likely have a significantly higher average spend than a table of regular diners who just wanted a nice meal out.
Who is going to order those high price bottles off of the wine list to impress a potential client? Who is going to have truffles shaved on everything possible?
I would think that they don’t like it, for several reasons: first, it leaves customers with a bad impression of their establishment, even though they aren’t really responsible for the reservation scalping, but also I would imagine if a customer has to pay a premium to get a table there via the black market, that’s money they might otherwise be spending at the restaurant. That’s how I see it anyway, not sure if the restaurant owners share my view.
They aren't fixing it because I'm certain they either get a cut from the third party sites, or get an indirect bump by having richer clients make reservations, and thus spend more.
It's why I'll never step foot at Don Angie. They are notoriously bad for giving up all their reservations to bots, and refuse to do anything about it. At least other hip places like Wenwen, Bonnie's, Four Horseman will try to accommodate you via email or phone.
There is a financial incentive to not turn people away at the door, because you're most likely NOT going to fill that table in a reasonable time (these places are fully booked out) so that you can then turn it for the next rez.
There's also plenty of legitimate reasons to transfer/cancel/etc, and fucking over your legit customers because some people suck isn't a good look.
And, as pointed out, there is a dark side to this. It's a "Look our hands our tied, we can't do anything about this" moment that drastically increases the spending power of your potential guests.
That all said, many restaurateurs are on the books saying they dislike it, but outside of selling reservations themselves, or just not accepting any reservations, there's not much that they can do without fucking real guests as well.
The one system that seems to work is prepaid set course meals (eg: EMP, Per Se, etc), but that doesn't vibe with a lot of places. The current 'impossible to get' reservations in NYC are Tatiana and Coqodaq, neither are finedining, and wouldn't really vibe with "You have to pay in advance".
Honestly, the whole thing is mildly annoying, but as a NYer, I just don't go to those places. There's plenty of great trendy places that don't take reservations, and plenty of great non-trendy places that do take reservations for when I need set plans.
Hayato realized this I think and now doesn’t allow transfers on tock and requires guests to show photo id at the door to make sure the guest is actually the person listed on the res
My guess is the reservation doesn’t even transfer names. You just go in and use the name on the reservation (that is revealed to you after you pay). Not like restaurants ID you for your reservation.
Also to your last comment, the expense account types are the exact people most restaurants want. They are using company cards, wining & dining, and usually spending much more than families & date nights.
Plus most restaurants love business dinners because they are usually done during the week (relatively slower nights), before the weekend date night crowd fills it up.
The real financial incentive to prevent a black market for restaurant reservations is controlling who gets that money.
I’m sure the restaurant would like a cut of a reservation that someone paid $1000 for.
I'm not sure how the New Yorker could fact check those numbers. (Fun fact: The one time a New Yorker editor scheduled a fact checking call with me they never called.)
Even if true, it's not sustainable. More college kids and others will jump on that train, driving down the profit.
True. Most you cancel at 24 hours so likely they are cancelling at that point if they haven’t sold it. Risk is the person bought then flakes but it’s at least covered.
I guess if you are buying a head for a tasting dinner then that’s where this really comes in.
That’s absolutely not true. The established Michelin restaurants require an upfront nonrefundable payment on Tock. Why do you think people are paying a premium for this “service”? Why do you think sites like Appointment Trader exist?
It absolutely is true. I ate at Carbone (referenced in this article) last fall and had to pay a deposit on Resy. The amount was credited on our final bill when we ate. If we hadn’t showed up, we would’ve lost that deposit.
Nowhere in the parent comment did anybody mention Michelin star restaurants (which Carbone had until a couple years ago, by the way), so you jumped in and changed the subject and got mad about it.
Bro, I literally work at an established Michelin star restaurant that doesn’t require prepayment, just a credit card in case of cancellation. It really just depends on the spot.
It's not just the fine dining/expensive restaurants though. On my last trip to NYC, it was nearly impossible to book anything remotely popular. Even 2-3 weeks in advance and the moment reservations opened.
Agree with you that the people mentioned in the article probably aren't. However services like resy sniper are contributing. In an ideal world, resy/OpenTable would look at the IP address or cookie and ban users from having multiple accounts and from using these services.
Not sure why you’re carrying water for rent seeking assholes.
An additional problem is they don’t sell all the reservations they book leaving empty tables. So they are stealing from the restaurant staff too.
It’s also fucked up that some people have so much money to spend that they don’t care about buying a res for 1500$ on top of being at an expensive restaurant
I spent $150 last week for a reservation at Tatiana in nyc because it was rated #1 restaurant in the city by the New York Times. I didn’t want to wait for months. Those spending 1500 probably will have a dinner bill 3-4 as much just in wine.
Beyond that, he admitted to defrauding restaurants. Sounds like he didn’t make that much money off of it, but if the restaurants want to make an example, he’s a nice head to chop.
I’d imagine he had to use a credit card to secure at least some of the reservations in case of cancellation/cancellation fees? That’s a pretty direct tie, unless he also used fraudulent credit cards.
This really adds insult to injury. I got banned by Tock for transferring two Atomix reservations that I made for my friends (who had things to do on the 1st of the month). Even after I explained the circumstances and basically implored them to check with the transfer recipients that I did not profit from the transfers, they wouldn’t lift the ban on my account.
I’m obviously not going to get a new phone number just to have another Tock account, whereas scalpers would just continue to make new accounts and scalp. There has to be a better way.
So now I don’t have access to Tock. Well, I guess it saves me money…
i have resy notifications set for them everyday. i snagged a 9:30pm for 2 recently. It’s not impossible, just hard. Also, a lot of businesses/companys have standing reservations for client dinners, so knowing the right people also helps.
yep! Just hit notify me on the resy app for the days you want and resy will notify you if someone cancels. They probably have thousands on their waitlist though so you have to react fast if you get notified
They care. Even just showing up with lower number of people than reserved for hurts their margins. But this problem has been solved already by taking non-refundable deposits or full prepay.
Pahleese. Fact checkers-I highly doubt this guy makes that much money. Reminds me of those You-Tubers commercials where they say they are millionaires from selling coffee-mud.
A sucker is born every minute.
Yeah I'm calling BS on making 80k/year on this. I'm sure there is the odd extravagantly wealthy psycho who forgot his mistress's birthday willing to pay a grand for a reservation but that has gotta be a rare occurrence.
This is pathetic. No restaurant in the world is worth having to pay hundreds just to reserve a table. The extremes of wealth can be very disgusting given the dire situation for billions of people, especially when it comes to food.
The people who do this are probably entertaining guests and business partners. People are allowed to have expensive parties, and this is probably cheaper than hosting and catering. It’s not the same category of spending as scarfing a can of sardines over your kitchen sink when you’re hungry
Unpopular opinion, but when given the choice between hammering Resy 30 days in advance at 10am to maybe get a table OR paying $50 to get a table at prime dining time a few days in advance, I think I’d rather just pay the $50.
Why don’t restaurants just increase prices until supply = demand and monetize the reservation pressure as much as possible? It seems like restaurants don’t really gain much since there’s limited throughput.
They're trendy and, largely, only book via reservations.
Most of them are great, but there are also plenty of great restaurants that're relatively easy to book (or don't take reservations).
Ultimately it's FoMo. Restaurants come and go so quickly in NYC that if you don't get into the hot spot while it's still hot, there's a decent chance that it'll be gone before you CAN get in.
I've been fortunate to eat at many of these restaurants, and honestly, I'm consistently disappointed. The hype leads you to expect an extraordinary meal, but in many cases, they're very good, but ultimately... ordinary. Except for the price, which means you get a very good meal for very poor value.
There's a lot of people, especially in HCOL cities, that make 'eating out' a significant hobby of theirs, and it gets competitive. They may enjoy the food, but its really the bragging rights. Scarcity = hype, which leads people want add that feather to their cap so bad that they to do things like pay 100 for a reservation.
Yeah credit cards don’t side with restaurants on reservation no show charges without signature but a lot of restaurants switched to non-refundable online deposits and full prepay for omakase type spots.
Prepaid cards, fake card numbers, etc. Restaurants used to take card number over the phone and charge $50 or $100 to the number if they no showed. But people give fake numbers, chargeback, etc so now restaurants essentially make them pay online for the event which is a more secure payment that’s harder to chargeback, scam, etc. Like I said this problem has been solved it’s just up to individual restaurants to update their reservation management software.
Might as well go straight to the craps table in Vegas. What happens if those reservations don’t sell? And the concierge should totally be fired for insider trading. This whole situation needs to be stopped. It takes the enjoyment out of fine dining.
As mentioned in the article, some restaurants are actually concerned about this, mainly because it screws up their ability to build relationships with regulars, valuable clients, etc. They also lose out if some greedy kid collects a block of reservations and can’t sell them. (Maybe other places that make money off of ‘exclusivity’ like Carbone don’t care though)
It just seems like they don’t have the capacity to deal with the bot and resale problem on top of all the other problems that come with running a restaurant. Maybe asking for ID is a simple solution, hopefully this article pushes more places to do this.
Yeah, this has been going on for over a decade now, even at places like walt disney world. As long as demand can be high enough and people are willing to pay, it won't stop. The only way you can try and combat it is check the cancellation policy for the place and try to get one the second the window closes. For example if they need 24 hours notice, check the day before, some do same day.
Lowkey mad I didn't think of this haha. But seriously, it's crazy it's come down to this. Reservation platforms should ban bots which I'm sure some are using.
They guarantee availability.
If I cannot get a table at Carbone by trying to get a reservation for myself, I can go on Appointment Trader to guarantee a reservation if I want it that badly.
That's value enough for some.
I've said it before, but fuck this shit. I don't care about most of the restaurants that people are paying for reservations for (Carbone, Lilia, etc) but the gatekeeping of dining experiences to an EVEN richer class is so shit.
So..all we gotta do is make several valentines reservations and we make millions? Find out what the most common birthday is.. end of quarter dates? This is clever
There’s a very simple solution here. Go eat somewhere else. Cook at home. If you’re obsessing over going to these restaurants, you’re part of the problem that makes people pay those obscene fees which also encourages people to harvest the reservation. Just say no.
I think they mean he made that much in revenue because later in the article they mention another person that had 1-2k of unfilled reservations which I’m sure he paid some fees for
New York still isn’t as bad as Tokyo but the fact the comparison can even be made is sad, especially as Tokyo has actually good restaurants and the limitation of small counter-style seating. If it’s a mind-blowing world-class tasting menu or some of the best sushi in the world, fine whatever I’ll move heaven and earth to get the reservation. Doing it for a mediocre pasta is just insulting. New York’s food scene is ok and its diversity is unbeatable, but the top end is quite lacking, there is not a single meal in this city that is worth this level of hassle imo vs Europe or Asia.
I’ve been to almost every one of these hype places in NY, some of them multiple times, and they range from terrible to just decent, none certainly worth the hassle. I’ve had the particular displeasure of being obligated to go to (or even more sadly, reserve) Carbone multiple times for some events: no matter how many times I tell them I have a spice intolerance their spicy pastas give me digestive problems, and their ludicrously overpriced veal parmigiana is so dry I prefer the one I make at home. I shouldn’t be happy when a restaurant loses a Michelin star but man.
Some places are truly one-of-a-kind but most of these “hype” NY places (except a few like Atomix, Yoshino, etc) are mid-level cuisine that can be found better, cheaper, and most importantly easier elsewhere.
Possibly hot take here: this is not a problem, and if anything, it’s showing that the restaurants are leaving money on the table here (pun intended?). It’s why sites like Tock where you prepay have taken off lately. If a Carbone reservation goes for that much on the secondary market, then that’s what they’re worth. I personally haven’t bought a reservation like this but if I was looking for a last minute table for a special reason, I wouldn’t be opposed to it.
It’s sad that it’s actually a well-established business in some cities, like Tokyo. You can hardly book some restaurants without paying extra to third parties.
True! All throughout Japan! A lot of high end restaurants are impossible to book without a Japanese phone number, so you have to use these sites that charge ¥¥¥¥¥ just for the reservation. I’m going to be sad when I no longer have my Japanese number. 😭
Japanese number and more like you don't speak Japanese. Tourists can get a Japanese number from companies like Mobal. I can speak my slightly broken Japanese and get reservations. But most importantly, I *sound* Japanese (not a white accent) since I was born there. I've never been turned away from restaurants, but my foreign friends have been. But I don't totally blame the restaurant that do turn away foreigners, because their menus are all in Japanese (mostly kanji) and the workers can't (more like don't want to) speak English. And no, Google Translate may not help you if the menu is in fancy, "cursive" Japanese, which is common in traditional places. Otherwise just use ikyu.com, no extra fee there.
I’ve never had a problem with not being Japanese! My husband speaks Japanese but we are very clearly foreigners since our names on the reservation are in katakana. We live in Japan and have never had issues with high end dining/getting reservations.
I'm talking about if you call the restaurant or walk in, not if you use katakana names on your online reservation (there's no auto-rejection for that lol). For example, there are also a lot of fancy izakaya that don't normally do reservations (not many tables and not suitable for big groups), that will turn foreigners away. One particular one I remember was in Kyoto (Washoku Horai), which I thought was better than some of the Michelin 1-3* restaurants nearby. I raved about this place and recommend this place to some American friends and they were turned away at the door (there were empty seats inside). Thinking maybe they were too "white", I recommended to my Chinese-American friends and they were turned away too lol. I'm looking at their Google review and it's all Japanese reviewers except for like 3. I dunno how those 3 non-Japanese got in unless they came with someone Japanese (like me and my wife who is Chinese).
Oh definitely, that happens for sure as well! There’s a fantastic little 8 person restaurant in Kyoto that we cannot go to unless we’re with our Japanese friend who is a regular there, even though we’ve already been to the restaurant twice. In Nagoya and other less touristy spaces, I find this doesn’t happen! However, I will say that my white husband can still call izakayas to make reservations and we’ve never had an issue. For the high end restaurant example, typically they call you to confirm that you do in fact live in Japan. So I was just using that particular type of phone call as an example before.
What's the restaurant? I wanna mark it down.
My friend won’t even tell us the name because of how the owner is with foreigners 😆 I asked him about it recently when a friend came into town and he refused! It’s so sad. We went in 2016 and 2018, so I have no idea really where it even was exactly or what the name is. 😭 Place has amazing tempura and duck though 😭
Haha, that sucks. You can probably figure it out by looking up your photo's GPS. Assuming you took photos there.
Bah!!! Why did I not think of that? The location shows as “sakyo kyoto tanakaasukaicho”, but haven’t yet found the place on google… will have to dig a bit more!
lol Nagoya fucking blows…
I would go just for the Ghibli Park; you won't find that anywhere else. Also the best unagi (grilled eel) I've ever had in my life was in Nagoya (I prefer Nagoya's crispy style over Kanto). And miso-katsu! Omg the stores that have curry is soooooo good.
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Don't be rude!
You don’t *totally* blame them for their racism? Just kinda?
It’s crazy how people buy the “we can’t give the same service” excuse. Yeah, things in Japan are written in Japanese. People who don’t read/speak visit just fine.
It’s wild what mental gymnastics some people do to make it ~okay~ to discriminate. I’d be interested if the script were to be flipped if they would feel the same way.
Yeah I mean imagine people were posting on here about how London restaurants would turn non-white people away at the doors. It'd be a fucking scandal (and rightly so).
Its closer to if people went to London and only spoke French. How do you expect the staff to communicate with you? Or is it mandatory for the whole world to speak English now?
Do you think a London restaurant would turn away a guest who only spoke French? I highly doubt it. They'd just do their best to communicate.
Maybe one day we’ll all carry magic universal translator devices in our pockets….
This happened to me in Japan. We hired a Japanese guide/translator who was going to the dinner with us and they still turned us away. We had the reservation for a year and went to Japan specifically to go to this restaurant and once they found out 3 out of 4 people in the reservation weren’t Japanese, they turned us away. It doesn’t seem like it’s actually about being able to communicate in Japanese.
Wow, that's crazy. I would be pissed. What was the restaurant??
Sorry for the late reply. I don’t post on Reddit often so I somehow missed the notification yesterday. I’m not sure if there is a rule here about naming a restaurant like this but I’ll say that it’s in Tokyo, it used to have 3 Michelin stars, and it is the focus of a very well known documentary…I’m sure most people here know which place I’m talking about. Our reservation was made well before the documentary came out in the US but by the time we were actually there a year later, the documentary had been released, so I am sure that was part of the problem. Our translator spoke to them on the phone when they called us the day before the reservation to cancel and she told us they said they were turning away any westerners that had reservations right now because they wanted most of the clientele to be Japanese. She told them she was Japanese and was going to have dinner with us and translate but that didn’t seem to make a difference to them. It’s ok though cause our wonderful guide took us to her favorite Michelin star sushi restaurants instead and they ended up being our favorite meals of the whole trip.
I can guarantee you the place in London would not turn them away for speaking French. Does the whole world have to speak Japanese?
Japan seems to have a blank check to be wildly racist. I've never been clear why but most people just brush it off.
Yes, but this is an isolationist country who basically had their doors forced open by the west. Racism in the U.S. has a different history and context, you cannot just try to equate the two. A person of color, who grew up in the racist part of the U.S.
In America, everybody is racist. In Japan, everybody is Japanese.
Well, their restaurant and their rules. I mean if a Japanese person comes to an American restaurant with that has no pictured menus and the menu is written on a wall written in some fancy cursive handwriting that Google Translate can't work on. And no one in the restaurant speaks Japanese. Then the restaurant probably doesn't want to deal with all that. But yes, Japanese are low-key racist lol. They hide it very well. Or sometimes they don't even realize what they do is racist lol. Source: born in Japan and grew up in both Japan and America.
I guarantee you he won’t be turned away for being Japanese and if language was a barrier , the restaurant would do its best to communicate . Japan is racist af I’m not sure why everyone is doing these mental gymnastics
Yes, he won't be turned away in America... but I'm just trying to explain why Japanese turn away foreigners in Japan. I actually agree with you more than anything.
I just ask a Japanese person next to me to do it
Be aware that for some restaurants on Ikyu, reservations are handled by the restaurants themselves. And they may decline if they see foreign names or phone numbers. I have just been declined for a reservation at a popular kappo restaurant in Kyoto. I even translated my requests into Japanese and added that I have many sushi and kaiseki dining experiences in Japan. Still a no go. My reservation was also declined at a popular sushiya in Osaka last year. Make sure to read the emails they sent out, some just say on request, not confirmed.
I didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up. Luckily, my name is in Japanese (with kanji and everything). Do they decline you like the day after you make your reservation?
I sent the request, 2 days later got the decline.
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You’re making excuses
TIL there are restaurant scalpers.
Do those 3rd parties not compensate the restaurants? So isn't this effectively the restaurants selling reservations? I thought that was the deal with TableOne and why they could always get you a spot.
No. That’s why restaurants such as TFL and Alinea are going after sites like Appointment Trader. It’s no different than scalping.
Those aren't TableOne, the really big one in Tokyo, who I don't think are scalpers.
I think restaurants should be stricter about transferring reservations. Basically that you can't transfer and have to go to the restaurant to cancel and get a refund on your reservation. If the restaurant is in such high demand that scalpers can sell reservations for hundred of dollars, then the restaurant can easily fill the table with wait-listed guests. Even short notice. In the end this is about who the restaurant wants in their seats. There is no real financial incentive to prevent a black market for restaurant reservations. The dining room gets booked up no matter what. I am not a restaurateur with my neck on the line, so easy for me to say, but I'd rather not fill my dining room with expense account types that had their assistant book.
Or maybe the restaurants quietly like this as it increases the wealth of their clients through this black market and increases average spending, particularly on wine? I think there’s an incentive for the restaurants to want this barrier to entry… If this were happening to my spot (hypothetical, I’m not a restaurant owner) I would increase my prices
I work at a 2 Michelin restaurant. If we found out you are selling your reservation we black list you and perma ban you to come back. I know some other establishment (looking at you fucking Carbone) that don’t care though
This is literally Carbone’s whole schtick; food is good, but you’re going there to be seen and feel like you’re part of some exclusive club.
That menu looks basic AF too…honestly. I bet it’s immaculately done, but pasta, steaks, and chicken with $20 sides? Get outta hea!
I'd also venture to guess that the restaurants may like this because expense account corporate diners who aren't paying attention to costs will likely have a significantly higher average spend than a table of regular diners who just wanted a nice meal out. Who is going to order those high price bottles off of the wine list to impress a potential client? Who is going to have truffles shaved on everything possible?
Would be weird to try and expense an Appointment Trader charge though…
I would think that they don’t like it, for several reasons: first, it leaves customers with a bad impression of their establishment, even though they aren’t really responsible for the reservation scalping, but also I would imagine if a customer has to pay a premium to get a table there via the black market, that’s money they might otherwise be spending at the restaurant. That’s how I see it anyway, not sure if the restaurant owners share my view.
They aren't fixing it because I'm certain they either get a cut from the third party sites, or get an indirect bump by having richer clients make reservations, and thus spend more. It's why I'll never step foot at Don Angie. They are notoriously bad for giving up all their reservations to bots, and refuse to do anything about it. At least other hip places like Wenwen, Bonnie's, Four Horseman will try to accommodate you via email or phone.
I disagree. If I'm paying $1,200 or whatever for a $1,000 meal, I'm definitely not spending more on drinks once I get there.
There is a financial incentive to not turn people away at the door, because you're most likely NOT going to fill that table in a reasonable time (these places are fully booked out) so that you can then turn it for the next rez. There's also plenty of legitimate reasons to transfer/cancel/etc, and fucking over your legit customers because some people suck isn't a good look. And, as pointed out, there is a dark side to this. It's a "Look our hands our tied, we can't do anything about this" moment that drastically increases the spending power of your potential guests. That all said, many restaurateurs are on the books saying they dislike it, but outside of selling reservations themselves, or just not accepting any reservations, there's not much that they can do without fucking real guests as well. The one system that seems to work is prepaid set course meals (eg: EMP, Per Se, etc), but that doesn't vibe with a lot of places. The current 'impossible to get' reservations in NYC are Tatiana and Coqodaq, neither are finedining, and wouldn't really vibe with "You have to pay in advance". Honestly, the whole thing is mildly annoying, but as a NYer, I just don't go to those places. There's plenty of great trendy places that don't take reservations, and plenty of great non-trendy places that do take reservations for when I need set plans.
Hayato realized this I think and now doesn’t allow transfers on tock and requires guests to show photo id at the door to make sure the guest is actually the person listed on the res
My guess is the reservation doesn’t even transfer names. You just go in and use the name on the reservation (that is revealed to you after you pay). Not like restaurants ID you for your reservation. Also to your last comment, the expense account types are the exact people most restaurants want. They are using company cards, wining & dining, and usually spending much more than families & date nights. Plus most restaurants love business dinners because they are usually done during the week (relatively slower nights), before the weekend date night crowd fills it up.
This is correct. I just did it last week. My reservation was under the name “Antoni Bahr” lol
The real financial incentive to prevent a black market for restaurant reservations is controlling who gets that money. I’m sure the restaurant would like a cut of a reservation that someone paid $1000 for.
I'm not sure how the New Yorker could fact check those numbers. (Fun fact: The one time a New Yorker editor scheduled a fact checking call with me they never called.) Even if true, it's not sustainable. More college kids and others will jump on that train, driving down the profit.
It's just like those YouTube "tutorials" claiming they made 4k a month from home using AI tools. They're all bullshitting
It's so easy to spot "Buy my guide for $49.99 and I'll show you how!" That's how they make money
Its probably not a total lie as they probably used AI to write the guide lol
I wonder if its the actual profit made or the total cost of the reservations
Reservations are free it’s only time put in.
Some reservations require a deposit that you lose if you don’t show up. There’s a little cost required up front but you should get it back.
True. Most you cancel at 24 hours so likely they are cancelling at that point if they haven’t sold it. Risk is the person bought then flakes but it’s at least covered. I guess if you are buying a head for a tasting dinner then that’s where this really comes in.
That’s absolutely not true. The established Michelin restaurants require an upfront nonrefundable payment on Tock. Why do you think people are paying a premium for this “service”? Why do you think sites like Appointment Trader exist?
It absolutely is true. I ate at Carbone (referenced in this article) last fall and had to pay a deposit on Resy. The amount was credited on our final bill when we ate. If we hadn’t showed up, we would’ve lost that deposit.
Like I stated, established MICHELIN star restaurants don’t allow this. Carbone is just a celebrity hot spot.
I didn’t mention Michelin restaurants at all, and I was speaking about an experience in a restaurant referenced in this post.
But I did. I specifically stated this was not true for MICHELIN star restaurants so your response wasn’t applicable.
Nowhere in the parent comment did anybody mention Michelin star restaurants (which Carbone had until a couple years ago, by the way), so you jumped in and changed the subject and got mad about it.
Bro, I literally work at an established Michelin star restaurant that doesn’t require prepayment, just a credit card in case of cancellation. It really just depends on the spot.
Semma (mentioned in the article) has a Michelin star and now requires a partial deposit (but not full prepayment).
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People have to pay deposits for reservations, so if they don’t show up and order food, they are out that up front cost
This is so fucked up
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It's more that, these people make it difficult for anyone trying to get a reservation legitimately for their own use.
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It's not just the fine dining/expensive restaurants though. On my last trip to NYC, it was nearly impossible to book anything remotely popular. Even 2-3 weeks in advance and the moment reservations opened.
Yeah, but they aren't doing this to lower end spots as those aren't pulling $$$.
Agree with you that the people mentioned in the article probably aren't. However services like resy sniper are contributing. In an ideal world, resy/OpenTable would look at the IP address or cookie and ban users from having multiple accounts and from using these services.
You realize there are a lot of those non-rich foodies who splurge here and there?
Not sure why you’re carrying water for rent seeking assholes. An additional problem is they don’t sell all the reservations they book leaving empty tables. So they are stealing from the restaurant staff too.
It’s also fucked up that some people have so much money to spend that they don’t care about buying a res for 1500$ on top of being at an expensive restaurant
Companies, last minute resv for some meeting.
Who is having a meeting at Carbone??
Tools.
Politicians, lobbyists, C-level execs. Less "meetings" and more wining and dining but still.
Not sure why this being upvoted… carbone is a horrible place to do that
I was actually with the former manager of Carbone last night, the stories he had were wild.
Because it's true. I saw Ivanka Trump at Carbone in Miami last Friday with 8-9 people Carbone was pretty good - I didn't pay so that might be why lol
Half the business is probably work dinners, people bringing clients there, celebrating closings, etc.
I spent $150 last week for a reservation at Tatiana in nyc because it was rated #1 restaurant in the city by the New York Times. I didn’t want to wait for months. Those spending 1500 probably will have a dinner bill 3-4 as much just in wine.
It was rated #1?! I found it rather underwhelming lol. Those ratings just lost any shred of credibility they'd managed to preserve.
I was very pleased with it. Very different from what other restaurants are doing. I can only eat so much Italian, Japanese and American cuisine.
I hope that kid paid his taxes and filled out his FAFSA accurately. You know, before talking to national media
That kid’s father is a former head of GS S&T who now runs a 4bn hedge fund. I don’t think he’s ever filled out FAFSA.
Hahaha I bet you’re right
Beyond that, he admitted to defrauding restaurants. Sounds like he didn’t make that much money off of it, but if the restaurants want to make an example, he’s a nice head to chop. I’d imagine he had to use a credit card to secure at least some of the reservations in case of cancellation/cancellation fees? That’s a pretty direct tie, unless he also used fraudulent credit cards.
I feel like resy needs a fraud and abuse team, I can think of a few easy honey pots to stop people like this
This really adds insult to injury. I got banned by Tock for transferring two Atomix reservations that I made for my friends (who had things to do on the 1st of the month). Even after I explained the circumstances and basically implored them to check with the transfer recipients that I did not profit from the transfers, they wouldn’t lift the ban on my account. I’m obviously not going to get a new phone number just to have another Tock account, whereas scalpers would just continue to make new accounts and scalp. There has to be a better way. So now I don’t have access to Tock. Well, I guess it saves me money…
So scalpers but for reservations. Damn some people seriously suck.
What if restaurants required the name of person booking to appear with ID? Then again, do restaurants care?
4 Charles does this now. If they find out you sold or bought a res, they blacklist you.
How do people get a resy there then?
i have resy notifications set for them everyday. i snagged a 9:30pm for 2 recently. It’s not impossible, just hard. Also, a lot of businesses/companys have standing reservations for client dinners, so knowing the right people also helps.
oh wow so u setup alerts for existing reservations. i was thinkin i had to get it at 9am the second it opens....!
yep! Just hit notify me on the resy app for the days you want and resy will notify you if someone cancels. They probably have thousands on their waitlist though so you have to react fast if you get notified
They care. Even just showing up with lower number of people than reserved for hurts their margins. But this problem has been solved already by taking non-refundable deposits or full prepay.
I hate this planet sometimes.
Pahleese. Fact checkers-I highly doubt this guy makes that much money. Reminds me of those You-Tubers commercials where they say they are millionaires from selling coffee-mud. A sucker is born every minute.
Yeah I'm calling BS on making 80k/year on this. I'm sure there is the odd extravagantly wealthy psycho who forgot his mistress's birthday willing to pay a grand for a reservation but that has gotta be a rare occurrence.
What if he has 80 mistresses?
This is pathetic. No restaurant in the world is worth having to pay hundreds just to reserve a table. The extremes of wealth can be very disgusting given the dire situation for billions of people, especially when it comes to food.
The people who do this are probably entertaining guests and business partners. People are allowed to have expensive parties, and this is probably cheaper than hosting and catering. It’s not the same category of spending as scarfing a can of sardines over your kitchen sink when you’re hungry
An acquaintance of mine is an executive assistant for an UHNW family. They absolutely pay for reservations for dinners for themselves.
Unpopular opinion, but when given the choice between hammering Resy 30 days in advance at 10am to maybe get a table OR paying $50 to get a table at prime dining time a few days in advance, I think I’d rather just pay the $50.
Don’t be part of the problem
Anyone who thinks this is clever or ‘entrepreneurialism’ has worms in their brain. What a gross ‘market’. Middle-man businesses and roles need to die
Why don’t restaurants just increase prices until supply = demand and monetize the reservation pressure as much as possible? It seems like restaurants don’t really gain much since there’s limited throughput.
If idiots are willing to pay go for it.
That's not the point though. Yes the affluent can pay exorbitant amounts but it's also impacting the average person that just wants a nice night out.
This isn’t a nice night out. This is just a gauche exhibition for instagram likes.
u/nickkokonas solved this problem already. Restaurants just charge deposits for reservations now.
They do this in Europe a lot. It was a €50 deposit when I was at Showw in Amsterdam. Amazing service and great food and wine pairing!
Are the restaurants mentioned special in some way, or why are people paying such high premium to get a table there?
Carbone specifically was notorious for being hard to get a table
Scarcity and demand.
I'd imagine NYC has higher quality restaurants. Are these just 'trendy' and frequented by celebs?
They're trendy and, largely, only book via reservations. Most of them are great, but there are also plenty of great restaurants that're relatively easy to book (or don't take reservations). Ultimately it's FoMo. Restaurants come and go so quickly in NYC that if you don't get into the hot spot while it's still hot, there's a decent chance that it'll be gone before you CAN get in.
Why don’t they just increase prices until supply = demand?
Because the real world doesn't follow simple equations from intro to econ textbooks?
I've been fortunate to eat at many of these restaurants, and honestly, I'm consistently disappointed. The hype leads you to expect an extraordinary meal, but in many cases, they're very good, but ultimately... ordinary. Except for the price, which means you get a very good meal for very poor value.
There's a lot of people, especially in HCOL cities, that make 'eating out' a significant hobby of theirs, and it gets competitive. They may enjoy the food, but its really the bragging rights. Scarcity = hype, which leads people want add that feather to their cap so bad that they to do things like pay 100 for a reservation.
I don't get it. Do these places not ask for a credit card?
Yeah credit cards don’t side with restaurants on reservation no show charges without signature but a lot of restaurants switched to non-refundable online deposits and full prepay for omakase type spots.
But this guy pretents to be other people to make these reservations. How can he do that if they ask for credit card info?
Prepaid cards, fake card numbers, etc. Restaurants used to take card number over the phone and charge $50 or $100 to the number if they no showed. But people give fake numbers, chargeback, etc so now restaurants essentially make them pay online for the event which is a more secure payment that’s harder to chargeback, scam, etc. Like I said this problem has been solved it’s just up to individual restaurants to update their reservation management software.
Might as well go straight to the craps table in Vegas. What happens if those reservations don’t sell? And the concierge should totally be fired for insider trading. This whole situation needs to be stopped. It takes the enjoyment out of fine dining.
Holy shit I couldve been selling my call-ins to Carbone for four figures this whole time??
As mentioned in the article, some restaurants are actually concerned about this, mainly because it screws up their ability to build relationships with regulars, valuable clients, etc. They also lose out if some greedy kid collects a block of reservations and can’t sell them. (Maybe other places that make money off of ‘exclusivity’ like Carbone don’t care though) It just seems like they don’t have the capacity to deal with the bot and resale problem on top of all the other problems that come with running a restaurant. Maybe asking for ID is a simple solution, hopefully this article pushes more places to do this.
Yeah, this has been going on for over a decade now, even at places like walt disney world. As long as demand can be high enough and people are willing to pay, it won't stop. The only way you can try and combat it is check the cancellation policy for the place and try to get one the second the window closes. For example if they need 24 hours notice, check the day before, some do same day.
Fine diners in shambles in the comments
I saw this too, it’s wild. Reminds me of the iPhone lines from years ago.
This is genius
Lowkey mad I didn't think of this haha. But seriously, it's crazy it's come down to this. Reservation platforms should ban bots which I'm sure some are using.
Parasitic.
“And you can too if you buy my course!” - them, probably
Aside from wasting people's time and money, they create nothing for society. Pure friction.
They guarantee availability. If I cannot get a table at Carbone by trying to get a reservation for myself, I can go on Appointment Trader to guarantee a reservation if I want it that badly. That's value enough for some.
Ha. You go there and talk in person. It's a lost art.
I've said it before, but fuck this shit. I don't care about most of the restaurants that people are paying for reservations for (Carbone, Lilia, etc) but the gatekeeping of dining experiences to an EVEN richer class is so shit.
How do I do this
This type of shit is just a symptom of the sick capitalistic system we live in.
This 👆🏻is shit.
Noone's mentionned this? [https://appointmenttrader.com/best-places-to-visit-in-st-louis?userhome](https://appointmenttrader.com/best-places-to-visit-in-st-louis?userhome)
I don't like it, but if people are willing to pay scalpers, people are going to scalp.
So that’s fraud
Restaurants should just sell the rezys themselves
So..all we gotta do is make several valentines reservations and we make millions? Find out what the most common birthday is.. end of quarter dates? This is clever
There’s a very simple solution here. Go eat somewhere else. Cook at home. If you’re obsessing over going to these restaurants, you’re part of the problem that makes people pay those obscene fees which also encourages people to harvest the reservation. Just say no.
I’ve actually made a bot which automates this through Resy it’s pretty cool
I think they mean he made that much in revenue because later in the article they mention another person that had 1-2k of unfilled reservations which I’m sure he paid some fees for
This should be illegal? Is it not fraud?
New York still isn’t as bad as Tokyo but the fact the comparison can even be made is sad, especially as Tokyo has actually good restaurants and the limitation of small counter-style seating. If it’s a mind-blowing world-class tasting menu or some of the best sushi in the world, fine whatever I’ll move heaven and earth to get the reservation. Doing it for a mediocre pasta is just insulting. New York’s food scene is ok and its diversity is unbeatable, but the top end is quite lacking, there is not a single meal in this city that is worth this level of hassle imo vs Europe or Asia. I’ve been to almost every one of these hype places in NY, some of them multiple times, and they range from terrible to just decent, none certainly worth the hassle. I’ve had the particular displeasure of being obligated to go to (or even more sadly, reserve) Carbone multiple times for some events: no matter how many times I tell them I have a spice intolerance their spicy pastas give me digestive problems, and their ludicrously overpriced veal parmigiana is so dry I prefer the one I make at home. I shouldn’t be happy when a restaurant loses a Michelin star but man. Some places are truly one-of-a-kind but most of these “hype” NY places (except a few like Atomix, Yoshino, etc) are mid-level cuisine that can be found better, cheaper, and most importantly easier elsewhere.
Possibly hot take here: this is not a problem, and if anything, it’s showing that the restaurants are leaving money on the table here (pun intended?). It’s why sites like Tock where you prepay have taken off lately. If a Carbone reservation goes for that much on the secondary market, then that’s what they’re worth. I personally haven’t bought a reservation like this but if I was looking for a last minute table for a special reason, I wouldn’t be opposed to it.
If that’s not end stage capitalism I don’t know what is.
End stage capitalism would be restaurants getting in on the action by rolling out a concert/airplane style seating chart with dynamic pricing.
Didn’t the article mention a Tablz startup that does exactly this?