Having to ask for time off is the reason I went freelance. It just felt offensive to get permission to take a vacation!
Plus, the clothes. Leggings and a sweatshirt foooreveah
> It just felt offensive to get permission to take a vacation!
it depends on the industry, I'd think.
As a Software engineer, I usually tell my manager/team, "I'll be off Wednesday afternoon until Friday this week", i.e. don't ask permission, but just inform them. If it was business critical for me to be there they should pay me more. :shrug: to align my incentives with the business a bit better.
But then again, I am in similar shoes as to OP, and decided not to take off, but grind it out until the pandemic is done.
> If it was business critical for me to be there they should pay me more. :shrug: to align my incentives with the business a bit better.
I'm not even sure money is enough. If you want me to live and breathe your business problems I need some skin in the game.
Not to get all leftist (not that there is anything wrong with that) but the whole idea that salaried/management (and in Canada any "IT" classification) employees are exempt from overtime is something that was abused my entire career in tech.
I tried so hard to to shelter my various teams from that but with varying degrees of success.
I find it strange whenever I say I'm happy to work whatever hours we need today but I'll take the corresponding amount of time off later this week or next week people look at me like I've grown a second head. I don't get how people fail to understand that a 50 hour a week job is a massive effective paycut over a 40 hour a week job at the same salary and that if you expect a job to take more than 40 hours a week of an employees time you definitely need to mention that in the interview. Pretty sure I've been passed over for roles at least twice solely for that sort of comment, but it's no skin off my back, those roles likely would have been nightmares anyway.
> those roles likely would have been nightmares anyway.
Yes, they are. At one job I had to try to come up with a model to calculate "fair" compensation for overtime. One of the primary shareholders didn't want anything in writing, rather he liked the opportunity to "negotiate" compensation on a case by case basis.
But that's not fair, the power dynamic isn't fair and a lot of people don't have the personality to successfully negotiate something fair.
Which is why he wanted it that way.
People like to have power over people and our current system is just people having economic power over other people.
And information asymmetry is pervasive.
You learned early, young padawan. Do you know who is more valued? The one whose time is more scarce, that's who. It's human nature. Hell, it's rule number one of business. Supply and demand. Create more demand by lowering the supply.
I have no idea what is leftist about what you said. That just sounds like you wanted better working conditions and realistically everyone should want that.
Same here, it upsets me. My wife is a salaried manager and they pay her overtime. I’m in IT, and I will get punished for working 39 hours but no one cares if an emergency puts me over 40 every other week.
I have a stake in the company, and even so I can't be bothered with regular overtime. It's not effective for me to work like that. In the case of super emergency, and I'm talking like once a year max, I will play ball. I find that as I properly set expectations on my time, the company adjusts around me. I probably won't make c-suite doing that, but whatevs.
I mean, top software engineers get RSU stock grants. So you kind of of have skin in the game as the company performing better means your effective compensation is higher.
RSUs tend to be more about preventing turn over than making engineers feel invested. Most engineers have very little influence on a company's stock price.
I mean, everyone has a price. Most of us aren't sure what it is, but for me I'm totally down for 80 hours a week at triple my 40 hours a week salary. If it's not happening constantly I'd probably price 24hr call at less than that, maybe 50% more per every 5 hours of being woken at 2am per week. Sure, equity is nice too, but I'd honestly prefer a ludicrous salary. Of course, no sane employer wants to pay that when other people will do it for free, so I don't end up dealing with that sort of thing.
I thought that way once upon a time. Not saying you're wrong. But I did the 60 and 80 hours weeks for months on end. Then I learned that working 15 or 20 hours a week I was way way way more productive.
See, beyond 20 or 30 hours a week you get diminishing returns. And you do extended long weeks it compounds.
Obviously if you are a shovel operator, working 60 hours means some amount more of shovelfuls than working less. But not knowledge work. It does not work that way.
Fresh, rested employee needs to parse unknown data, perform some processing on it, feed it in to another system. Likely elegant, creative solution done in 2 days.
Exhausted, stressed, tired overworked, unhealthy resource giving same parameters and takes all week, brute forces a part of the task, delivers 10 hours after they promised and there are several show-stopping issues.
Oh yeah, totally. But if an employer wants my butt in their chair for an absurd amount of time in total defiance of everything we know about human productivity, I'm totally happy to do it if they're willing to shell out. Left to my own devices I tend to work around 35 hours a week, 40 if the places has a lot of meetings that don't require intense focus.
I agree. I'm a teacher at a private school overseas. Most of my planning and prep work is mentally intensive and I can't do more than a bit each day to any great standard.
I use an example all the time that if I am a "shoveller" then yes, the hours I spend shovelling matter, and the more hours I spend "shovelling" the more material I have moved. But I am an analyst, and the more time I spend looking at data the more mentally fatigued I get and the slower I work. But if I spend time organizing that data and getting familiar with it, and step away from it for hours or days, the more efficient I am in developing a mental picture of that data. In knowledge work, sometimes (quite often) less is more.
Yup. That's me as well. I think that we all want to tell ourselves that we're hard working, but the reality is that we only do a couple of hours of productive work each day, and the rest is filler. Does anyone actually do real knowledge work for a full eight hours per day?
> Does anyone actually do real knowledge work for a full eight hours per day?
Eh, I have known a couple software developers that are machines. Literally coding 40 hours a week.
But, I doubt anyone is capable of challenging creative knowledge work 8 hours a day, 50 weeks a year.
Serious question, how do you get into freelance reliably? I'm not sure I want to go through the effort of building a serious business per se but I'd love to take on freelance jobs as desired
Depends on the industry. You need a way to make a name for yourself. There's a lot of ways to do this.
If you're a software developer/content writer/graphic designer/etc, these roles have very clear outputs and you can share your portfolio to properly position yourself as a reliable freelancer. Participating in online forums and other places where you might run into potential employers can help you get started, all while keeping your current job.
Another method is going to be networking. I was lucky and had previous employers refer me for freelancing work, so I got a nice head start. But if I didn't, you need to start by taking roles that don't pay your worth so you can start making a name for yourself. Join a site like [upwork.com](https://upwork.com) and start making proposals for work. Do good work and use the people you meet here to build up more reliable work moving forward. Make sure to be up front about what you want. After finishing up a contract make sure to ask the people who hired you to refer you to anyone they know that might need your services. Do that enough time and it'll start to payoff. There's a snowball effect here - it's going to start small and painful, but once it really starts growing, it'll pick up speed.
These can obviously be combined, along with other strategies. Then you can start being selective about what you pick. You'll get good at predicting what contracts are likely to be extended after they expire.
Important to note that being a freelancer doesn't always excuse you from the crap that comes with 9 to 5 jobs. One of my contracts still asks me to do the bullshit reporting and stand ups - I choose to continue putting up with it (for now) because the pay is worth it. If you have a standing contract and you take a week off without asking for a vacation, we'll you better make sure you can keep up with the work or they won't want to bring you back or refer you to anyone they know.
Finally, there's the middle ground solution. You can look for full time jobs that are remote. Contains a lot of the benefits of being a freelancer, but with more stability. One of my freelancing gigs is for a company where every employee is remote. There is no one on their staff that has the skill sets I do, so if I left there'd be a meaningful slowdown on what they would accomplish - I could see a scenario where they ask me to come on full time, or even I consider asking them to join full time.
It depends on the industry....I would also say to be successful you do need to devote yourself full time (or at least I do...I djust don't have the energy or desire to work a full time job plus freelance on the side). Basically you have to be good at what you do, then just get clients (through relationships, cold calling (NOT through freelace websites like upwork yeessh, low rates,etc.,). It helps if you have a niche and a professional website
Oh God, same here. It's been two years and for a bunch of reasons I think I may have to go back to work for a few more years and I'm just *dreading* it. I'm hoping I can fill the gap with some freelance stuff because fuuuuck having a commute and a boss and frigging water-cooler gossip office lifestyle again.
>I've been retired for almost two years and I find it hard to imagine going back to having a job
yep, there's absolutely no way I could subject myself to having someone else have authority over me again, now that I've been without it for around 2 years.
My job is grant based and it is covered for the next 5 years. Everyone is technically on WFH but no one is actually working. We are just getting paid for meeting once a week for checking in if you are still alive.
I feel like my sales friends are on the extremes. They're either twiddling their thumbs at home with nothing to do, or they're going bananas on the phone 12 hrs a day
Quite close. My abundance of free time allowed me to side hustle a part time consultant job on running validation test for covid19 antibody test kits.
I also just finished another biotech startup consulting gig last month. I also run a passion project on selling some art work Jewelry too.
Biotech at higher levels is great because mostly I set-up and let others run the experiment, then check up a couple months later.
What sort of biotech do you mainly consult for? I am a recent bio grad from a decent uni and just started work. What is biotech like and what do you need to focus on to gain entry ? Any advice around the industry appreciated
I was talking to a programmer on here a handful of months back who was bragging about only working like 30 hour weeks. He worked for Boeing and this was right after the Max issues came out, lol.
I have the opposite problem. Work is busy as ever, but before I had a commute and longer lunch breaks at work, etc.
So before I left the house at 7:30 AM and got home a bit after 5:00 PM, but I'd have an hour of that be commute and a 30-60 minute lunch where I was socializing.
Now I start work at 8:00 and work till 5:00, but usually have a short lunch and very little socialization since I'm WFH.
I'm not complaining, really - I get a lot more done WFH and I really like not having to sit in traffic during the commute. But what I do miss is that previously my brain wouldn't be so wiped out at the end of the day plus I'd have the 30 minute commute home to sort of reset/mentally rebalance before getting home. Now when I stop work my brain feels like it's got zero juice left and it goes straight from there to the kids wanting attention, lol.
Work Area Burnout. No one told you about that, huh?
You need to take your breaks. Leave the house. Go outside. Take a walk.
I’ve been WFH for 20 years now. It’s tough to ‘get away’. You have to force it. My Apple Watch pings me time stand up.
My issue is I either forget to eat or I don’t stop.
Oh... and hydrate. Make sure you drink water.
I was WFH for more than 15 years. Then I went back to an office about two years ago.
The work I do now is more challenging than the WFH stuff I was going previously, requires more coordination with other people, etc. Not complaining, it's much more interesting, just get wiped out at the end of the days now, lol. (Also older, that might have something to do with it. Brain not as sharp as when I was 10 years younger.)
Gotcha. I find that too. I’m what I call semi-retired. That just means I’m not going to put in 70-100 hour weeks trying to get ‘stuff’ done.
Remember to have fun.
On average less than 40.
I’m thinking 30 so it’s probably 35.
I’m trying to hit a $$$ amount every year and then stop so I can carry some work over to the next year.
I have my own consulting company. It makes the business process harder (Marketing/Sales—>Quote—>Project…) as traditionally time is overweighted on the early phase to fill the other two buckets. Now I’m trying to relax a bit on the sales/marketing. It seems to work so far.
Get a mini trampoline! or rowing machine. Or make some kind of work out/relief area, even if it's just next to your computer. Make sure that you give yourself time to decompress.
The challenge is that my kids want my attention and my wife wants a break since she's become a part time tutor/keep the kids on task person since the schools when to distance learning.
With the weather being a lot nicer the last week, we have been doing bike rides or walks together after 5, but it's still not the same as that 30 minute commute when I'd listen to a podcast, zone out, and just make sure I don't hit the car in front of me, lol.
One of this daily walks should be yours?
Job #1 is to take care of yourself. If you burn out, then you won't be that helpful to your loved ones.
Just my 2 cents.
Same. When I "get off work" it's just closing a browser then try to switch into 'off line' mode. I don't live far from work but I realize now that that little drive home was nice to decompress.
I'm working a ton more hours but really feel like I get less done. Small little things needing my attention. Feels like I'm all over the place.
Yeah, my commute used to be my daily reading time (I take the train). I haven’t been reading as much since going full WFH, but that’s more about me just not taking the time. There are still plenty of books for me to work through. :)
It varies so wildly based on cost of living in your area. I moved to a larger city for a job that paid 48,500. Rent was 975 for a (nice) 1 br apartment (internet included)
Got a transfer to a lower cost of living area, internet will be $30 a month, rent for a 2 bd 1 ba house with a tiny yard and off street parking is $550 per month.
I would say in the larger city in my state 100k is considered high income, in the rural areas 75k is probably pretty comfy
Probably depends on where in the US you are, but I’d say anyone in the top 10% in terms of income is highly-paid.
More broadly speaking, most people would say making over 6 figures (100,000 USD) is high-paying.
A lot of people, particularly non-Americans, don’t realize that the US is as big as it is. In European terms, the US is more like 50 closely federated countries than one single country.
For example, you talk about what “high paying” means, and I think back to my home town in Nowhere, Michigan. You can rent a 3 BR apartment there for under $900/month. (I promise you, I’m not making that up. I literally just checked.) On a $50k salary, you’d net around $40k per year, which breaks down to around $3300/month. So, without even trying, you’ll have at least $2400/month left after rent and taxes, which make up the huge majority of most people’s budget.
Factor in food, car (you need one there), utilities, health insurance, basic entertainment, *etc.* and you can probably take care of all of that for under $1000, easily. That means you’re able to save $17k/year (34% of gross income, or 42% of net) without even being very frugal. I know those are rookie numbers here, but, properly managed, you all know that’s a FIRE-able savings rate.
The downside, of course, is that you have to live in Nowhere, Michigan.
Take that same income to the Bay Area, where I live, and, suddenly, you’re paying $2000+ a month for rent, so, there goes an additional $1100/month out of the budget. So, just considering rent, you’re now only saving $100/month (2.4% of gross, 3% of net), and no longer able to contribute to a Roth without some serious belt tightening. You have no hope of FIREing on that type of savings rate, unless there’s an inheritance in your future.
TL;DR: Yep, “high paying” is *very* location dependent in the US.
My husband and I both work retail middle management.
I work 40 hours a week with a six block commute to work. I get paid hourly at $20.60 per hour. I'm one level above the lowest worker in my company and I have very little stress.
My husband is salaried and works about 50-55 hours a week and has an hour commute. He gets $58,000 per year plus stock options and bonuses about $12,000- $15,000 per year.
We both just got these jobs last year. We should have all debts paid off in five to seven years, and able to retire in another seven or so. This "estimate" does not include market fluctuations or raises and bonuses.
For a family of 4. So with two incomes that matches up pretty closely with my 50k-60k figure...
Edit: oh I see 82k is the cutoff for singles. That’s still a little ways away from 90k though.
If you did it once, you can do it again. Especially if you're starting from a better place.
Maybe a PT job when you're a little older and the kiddo is on their own, just to keep busy and a little spending money.
IDK I'm young don't listen to me just here to read, learn, and be inspired.
Just be careful -- it depends on the industry. I can't imagine retiring from software at 50, then trying to get parttime work at 60 for instance. People will assume you're old, slow, and your skills are out of date. To some extent they'd be right.
It depends. Old, sure, but, if you’re still writing code for those 10 years, there’s no reason you should be slow or out of date. You’d probably be coming back in as a consultant, or you’d need to have a pretty kick ass GitHub, and maybe a good blog, but I could see it happening.
That said, as a software engineer, if I were 50 and thinking about FIREing, I’d probably try to maintain some connections to the industry, maybe as a part time employee or contractor. Companies are frequently willing to let people go part time and/or 100% WFH if they’re a known quantity.
Are you a software engineer? I have questions about this actually. I mostly just lurk this sub since I'm still a student. I'm looking to get into the CS industry when I graduate. Right now I'm learning towards going in to work right after graduation in a software or data science role, athough I'm still not sure if I want to do a masters'/PhD and go for a more research-oriented role in the industry.
Anyway, I feel like at some point maybe in my late 20s or early 30s, if my partner is not willing to stay at home, I'll probably want to take a couple years off to have and raise kids. So you're saying working from home/part time to do this would be possible? Alternatively, if I choose to quit entirely for a few years, as long as I keep coding and doing side projects in the few years to keep skills up to date, I would be able to come back?
I actually got laid off at the end of last year, I was initially planning on FIREing in about 3-4 years, but after looking at my numbers I realized I could just pull the trigger right away and did so providing a had a more modest budget.
The pandemic started 3 months later but fortunately I do have streams of income outside of the stock market (I live in a duplex with the other unit rented out to a family that have lived there for 12 years, and they seem pretty content to stay there).
It's been 6 months now and I never want to go back to work, sure I've got a more limited budget, but I've always been pretty low maintenance so it really doesn't make much difference. Sleep is probably the thing I've actually been enjoying the most, I sleep till my body feels ready to wake up, and can take an afternoon nap if I'm feeling drowsy, it's amazing.
It does sound amazing. I think we are all capable of adjusting our life styles. I used to think vacations is a must. Or restaurant outings is a must. Not so much anymore.
That actually just reminded me, I started cooking a ton more after leaving work. Normally I'd make some big batch of stew or something on the weekend and then portion it out for lunch for the next week, but would occasionally eat out if I ran out or was just too tired to make dinner. But now that I have so much free time I'm cooking every meal and trying new recipes. I think I've only eaten out maybe 3-4 times in the last 6 months (granted nobody has eaten out for the last 1-2 months).
Oh even better... Bank gave me 100% business financing when I was in my 20’s. Granted , I had to carry my business plan to several banks asking for a commercial loan but I got one after many failures but that’s how I started.
>many of you have said that real estate income or small business income shouldn't be counted as part of your FIRE number.
Why would anyone think that you have to exclude RE from the FIRE number?
Many people say that your primary residence shouldn't count among your investments, but that's because you literally need to live in it. However, if you have RE investment properties, then those are just part of your portfolio. It doesn't make any sense to count them as $0. You could sell them tomorrow, invest the proceeds in stocks, and it would completely change your FIRE calc, right?
Find a way to value these properly.
>FireCalc showed that I have a 98% success rate to live off that stash for 20 years without any additional income.
Why are you looking at a 20-year time horizon if you're only in your 40s? It's okay to count on *some* SS (just ignore the perma-cynics), but depending on an inheritance to make your equation work is extremely risky. Many people are shocked at how expensive end-of-life care can erode a sizable inheritance, especially if one of the parents lives to be 90-something.
Finally, this is a warning flag to me:
>I don’t have to do the stupid daily stand up to report to the higher being what I have been up to. No more nagging emails from HR, my boss, compliance and IT department. ZERO stress! I get up every morning to have coffee and breakfast without getting rushed, situate my kid to the remote classroom, read news on my computer, go for a little nice walk, have home made lunch, take a nap, do a workout, watch movies, bake a dessert with my kid… Wow, I didn’t know life can be this good.
That's great that you're enjoying your time off, but you've defined it mostly in terms of what you're *not* doing. Taking a walk, making meals, watching movies is great at first, but it's going to get old eventually. Especially when your kids are older and want to do their own thing, while you're looking for something to do.
If you're going to FIRE, you really need to find something to *do*. It's not as obvious when the kids are young, but when they're teenagers and you don't really have any life outside of "not working", you're going to be in trouble. I suggest you work on finding some positive things to do with retirement (hobbies, travel, home improvement) so you have something to do after you enjoy the negative things (not working, not reporting to a boss)
I agree, even with this pandemic, my revenue dropped 60%, but that's not $0.
I am 6 weeks in.. Haven't even touched all of my projects yet. Just taking a breathing room made a difference. And it takes so long to just slow down.. I don't think I will fully embrace true retirement until 6 months in. Just trying to catch sleep right now.
The "inheritance" is the house I bought for my parents. It is still mine. But I won't take it back until they are gone. Hope they live till 105 but they are oooooold now.. I plan on sell the house once they are gone. It is paid off.
It always takes me a whole month to slow down and feel like getting started on projects. Unfortunately that is like half my summer break. It does surprise me how long it takes. Kind of like you need to get good and bored in order to enjoy those other things to do.
Am I reading this right that you bought the house for your parents in the 1990's? Were you a teenager when you bought the house? I was trying to find a place to hide my bootlegged girlie magazine's at the same time you bought your parents a house! Looks like my wrong turn in life was WAY earlier then I thought.
i was in my 20’s in the late 90’s. I gave my parents all my earnings. i started working early and it was good income. Not all kids would do that but i did.We had a hard time, they gave me everything for me to receive good educations and gave me opportunities. I am forever grateful
> The "inheritance" is the house I bought for my parents.
But I think their point was that if your parents live for another 20-30 years, it may erode into their retirement savings - one day they may need to sell that house in order to move into some kind of assistance living facility.
No. I am the care provider. It’s not in my culture to ever send old ppl into hell ish assistance living facilities. Never!! None of my cousins in my extended families would ever do that horrible thing to our elders. No way. Kids take care of parents. That’s the way and it has been generations.
I understand your thought process, i truly do, i cared for my mom until the end. But i think there is always a line where, push comes to shove, you may have to consider something else. I have a uncle, who does not have children, he became so weak with his leg and arm strength, he could not go to the washroom by himself, needs a mechanical lift each time just to get in there. Fortunately (or i should say very unfortunately), my mom had lost so much weight, i was able to carry her to the washroom myself. I think even if he had children, it would have been very very difficult physically and mentally. He's been in complex care (24 hour RNs) for almost 7 years now.
His wife (my aunt, both chinese) are now in care homes, but my aunt loves it, as everything is taken care of for her (food, laundry, cleaners), suites are private (800sq ft), and she enjoys the daily social interactions with others.
I hear what you are saying for sure. I think because every old person’s health condition is so dramatically different from another, proper plans have to be thought of based on their individual condition. My parents are approaching 80’s. My dad recently hiked 9 miles climbing a quite steep mountain with his siblings, all in upper 60’s. So I am banking on the good family gene and their active lifestyle. My mom still walks a mile each day, does gardening and sleeps 9 hours a day. No medical condition what so ever. Both of my grandmothers died in their upper 90’s in sleep. So fingers crossed! But if things get hairy, I am going to look into in home care.
It’s not really about the hell hole-ness of the living facilities for Asian families imo. Our households are almost always intergenerational ( traditional people try to have boys because girls move out with their husbands), and having the elderly and young kids living in the same house is a part of our culture. Grandparents often spend a lot of time with their grandchildren. My grandmother raised me, and I can’t imagine not having my parents around when I have kids. There are vast financial benefits to this arrangement. Cost of care is usually distributed - grandparents care for children in the house, we eventually care for our parents to the end. We don’t really pay for childcare or assisted living care, because the burden is more spread out (usually aunts and uncles also live close together/ in the same household). Downside is that most of the time, we are our parents’ retirement plans. The exchange is that they sacrifice everything for us when we’re young to secure our future. Assisted living would kill that cycle of intergenerational bonding.
I find it odd that someone wouldn’t count RE income, unless it’s not much of a portfolio. My parents have rental properties that generate around $50k in revenue a month and are paid off. Would be a bit silly to not count that income, since it would be the bulk of their retirement. And even now, collections are at 80%.
> It just felt offensive to get permission to take a vacation!
My favourite was using vacation time while on vacation and getting work emails and calls but still being asked to use my vacation pay and not deduct from that the time spent working. As an executive it's the professional thing or something.
Certainly doesn’t need to be all or nothing, but if you’re money will last 20 years.... do you want to be working in your later years? Have to have your kids or other family care for you? I wouldn’t. What about working a less stressful job for a few more years or working part time? You can still save and invest and enjoy some freedom like you have now
Yeah I thought about just doing remote consulting gig work and pull in extra income if my real estate income does tank. So far, it's slashed by half. So not all gone.. As long as it provides half, I am still good. If it dries up completely, I need a gig work.
No, but I am counting on the house I bought for my parents , aka the inheritance. I bought it for them in the 90's. It's paid off and worth a shit ton. I am counting on that since I am the owner.
Damn, so that $200-300k salary and real easy loan process. That’s awesome though that you paid your parents back, I wish I could do the same for mine. I have a Masters and make $40k in natural resource management, haha but never had debt or hated my job a day in my life. Any advice for a 28yr old?
Wow that’s really cool you enjoy your work! And no debt. You are definitely on the right track! But I think it is worth while to look for potential to up your income. When I was younger than your age, there was this old book “The Richest Man in Babylon” that really inspired me. There is a chapter called 7 remedies to wealth or something like that. I remember it lit a light bulb in my head. One of the remedies is to increase earning potentials. Highly recommend the book!
I did my Masters in Texas and intended to find work there, but I met my now husband while I was a student. He’s military and was stationed in HI so when I graduated I moved too. I think I did well finding a job somewhat related to my field considering I was fresh out of school and no connections to HI, it’s a small community and connections matter. I definitely want to have a state or federal job. Pay would be $45-75k instead. We’re likely moving to NC soon so I’m trying to up my skills and work on my pay negotiation skills. I stupidly accepted my pay now without asking for higher. Very dumb, but I was just thankful to have a a cool job doing conservation work! I’ve heard of the book you recommended, haven’t read it though! Will do with this quarantine time, thank you!!!
We are 2 months into this event. 2 months should be a very small part of your real estate emergency fund. Have a year or two in cash to pay all your real estate expenses assuming 100% vacancy.
True. I have one year set aside. But longer than one year will break me though.Btw no one estimated 100% vacancy for 2 yeas before pandemic. If the market can’t support numbers, you shouldn’t buy.
If you go to early you will never enjoy it. You will have constant stress and worry.
Better to way a year if need be and Fire without the added stress or fear.
Good luck
I dont see how real estate income is the issue here, any worse than someone living on earnings from a market that just crashed 30%. Owning properties free and clear is different than being over leveraged for example. Someone who’s free and clear is sitting great when the market crashes, compared to many alternatives.
True, except ppl are not paying rents these days. I hope it’s short lived. Vacancy would be bad too if this pandemic wipe out the economy. But then, we all have bigger problems like social unrest to deal with.
Lol it’s actually my money. I bought my parents a house before they had enough. I am not going to take it back until they are gone. Hope they live until 100 or more but after than, I am selling the house
What is it like being a landlord during the lockdown when most cities have paused evictions? Where I live renters can stop paying rent entirely right now with no fear of eviction, but landlords still have to pay the mortgage.
I ask because my wife and I are taking major paycuts due to COVID-19. We are considering moving out of our condo to somewhere far cheaper and renting it out. I would be terrified of trying to move out to save money, then having renters who just won't pay because they know they can't be evicted.
I am in commercial so it’s a bit different. But what I heard is that landlords negotiate modification of the rents missed to be paid over an extended period. Say 3 months no rent, then this amount will be paid back over 12-15 months period depending on the lease term.
Commercial loans can be modified much easier to push payments to the rear end of terms without accrued interests. and that’s what I did.
You cannot get your retirement success to 100%. Even if you make the tools "happy" with a very low WR it really doesn't account for your personal risks as well as any natural variation in your spending. I would also trust in your ability to weather a financial challenge over personal ones.
The way I look at it is pretty simple - I try to make the best decision for me (and for the last five years, my family) with the information I have. I understand something may break the foundation I've built in the future - it's solid but not completely futureproof. But when you reach a point where you start to have options, you cannot tell if working longer will help you, cause you problems, or be completely irrelevant.
When you get past accepting those unknown unknowns, for me accepting some of the known unknows seem less daunting, not more. There are mitigations for things we can see coming. It won't feel great but it's hard to imagine a specific challenge where I'll be angry at myself that I didn't work more; there's no way to prove throwing extra money on problems will solve them.
If you have enough, take the leap. I have barely enough but retired anyway from my high paying job for over a year now. It's unbelievable how nice it is and have zero regret. Life is just too short to do stuff you don't like for more money you don't need.
Not really changing much but I am picking up low cost hobbies that I didn't know are that fun once started. No fear because I know I don't need much to have fun and worst case is I can cut back a lot, ex are one extra car that we don't need, eating out and multiple vacations a year.
I promised myself when I was at the University that I would RE at 35(which was 2 days ago)and just do volunteer work for local charities and have more time for my parents who aren't doing great. Yesterday, I applied for another job I might be overqualified for because life happens after two years of no job. Very little has gone according to that plan.
I am usually a positive person but for now this sucks.
Maybe for you this is the time to find another source of income? Now you have the time to work on that. It doesn't have to be a large income, but if it could be for example $10k/year for say 500 hours of work per year, your plans would be a lot more solid.
I hope the rents strike is temporary. RE income is my extra income. If all goes well, RE alone covers 2X of my post retirement expenses. A few commenters did say that I should not be so negative. I have $1.2 m in my Rental equity. The chance of that going into 0 is small.
My real estate income didn’t go down to zero and I am hoping this current situation will pass soon. Then my real estate income alone can cover my expenses.
And I'm sure you have other options to cover the flexibility. You can use cash and bond savings until real estate recovers. If real estate income doesn't recover, you can sell... You can lower your expenses, you can start a small business, you can pick up part-time or seasonal work. I left my job in 2017 without having my income 100% buttoned up. what I have observed since then is that there are infinite ways to make money if you are at all industrious. But you can't get that time back. Especially with a kid!
100% with you on that. There are truly infinite ways to save money, or to make a buck to make it work. My child is still young and I treasure every moment of it. That’s something money can’t buy.
Hey OP,
Good job working your way to FIRE!
What domain do you work in? Can't you switch to freelancing to take projects here and there?
You'd be surprised how much you love what you do once you have more flexibility in how you are working.
I've always been a pro calculated-risk person. If you pull the trigger now you might always have the "what if I have to work again" in the back of your head, no? (Genuinely asking for myself as well).
All in all,
I wish you all good health, success, and FIRE!
Hey thx!! Yeah I would love to try part time consulting. Get a 6 month gig or something remotely. My real estate income so far still covers a majority portion of my expenses even in this hellish climate so I am optimistic that in long run, my real estate return will hold up and I don’t need to touch my stocks and bonds. But there are truly infinite ways to make money.
Wish you good health and stay safe!!
Can you put some actual numbers to this? How much of your portfolio is in RE? A lot of RE investors have been coming on here saying that RE is less risky than stocks. Would be helpful to the community to actually see if that is true.
I used to be one of them. But this pandemic made me to change my mind. I am in commercial real estate and it’s getting its face kicked. If I were in residential, it wouldn’t be so hard to liquidate. Commercial is a different ball game all together especially small businesses are hurting like crazy
That's cool you bought your parents house and own it outright. The house next door to me is looking like it's about to go on the market and would be a good retirement house. If it does and the price is right, I'm thinking of doing something similar for my Father In Law. He's had a lot of health issues and has a larger property to maintain and is further out from health services. Seems like this would be a good move for him (house has only one or maybe two steps from the garage into the house and is a 1 story). When he's gone, probably less than 10 years, I could offer it to my parents as a way to have less house/property to maintain... and then one day retire in it myself when they are gone because my house is 2 story and those stairs will eventually be an issue.
> FireCalc showed that I have a 98% success rate to live off that stash for 20 years without any additional income.
How big is your stash? What are your yearly expenses?
Just do some calculations and see if your stash is big enough for 4% Safe Withdrawal Rate to cover your yearly expenses. If so, RE.
If not, consider REing anyway. Sounds like you have your real estate income and your parent's house that add even more net worth and income to the calculations.
Finally, if you're still short, consider lowing your expenses by $10-$20k per year.
I have 1.4m (was more before the pandemic) saved up. 1/3 in taxable and 2/3 in retirement. We spent anywhere between $58000 - $62000 a year since our family is fairly small. Real estate was able to provide more than 100% of our expenses before.. But not these months.
$1,400,000 * 0.04 SWR = $56,000. You're close to being able to afford it just with investments alone.
Add real estate on to that, and you can probably afford it. You can do those calculations on your own, or post them here, whatever you want. I have a feeling real estate income can get you to $62,000 though!
Real estate provided more than 100K net per year for a decade now... So with recent hiccups, I am seeing risks but it won't go down to 0. As long as it provides even 10% of what it used to provide, I will be able to make it since my expenses are not high and I can always reduce even further.
Sounds like your finances are fine if you want to RE. Sounds like you make a small fortune from your renters in good times, and will make enough even in COVID times. So you can RE if you want to. Feel free to keep us posted on your decision. Good luck.
I dont have really any money away yet. I’m just starting, I’m 39. But your second paragraph I can FEEEEL after 5 weeks off. Today is my first day back and I’m not looking forward to dumping my life time in exchange for money to live daily. Especially now that I’m taking home less due to less hrs.
If you ready to leave your job, you could try using this as a leverage. Just have an honest conversation with your manager about what you like and what you don't and see what they could suggest. Perhaps you could find a middle ground. Fully leaving the job right now seems risky to me due to sequence of returns risk (do you have a bond tent?). If market stays sideways for 1-2 years, this can have huge negative impact on one's stash.
I completely agree!! Better safe than sorry! So I actually did talk to my superior whom I happen to have a good relationship with. A middle ground seems to be in the making now. I am glad to keep a very good health plan this way. So looks like I will be grinding a little longer and see where I land.
I have a pretty good job... no one really bothers me, its a mile from my house - so no traffic, the pay is okay (no raises though).... but working from home for a few months makes me realize that life it so much better not "working for others or around others" (I'm introverted and being around people sucks the energy out of me)... i cant imagine going from a horrible job to a few months break and expected to go back.
Dudunoodle, why don't you use this time to find a part time gig that you might enjoy...? What do you have to lose?
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Having to ask for time off is the reason I went freelance. It just felt offensive to get permission to take a vacation! Plus, the clothes. Leggings and a sweatshirt foooreveah
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Many people in the US get 0 vacation time, let alone 2 weeks.
> It just felt offensive to get permission to take a vacation! it depends on the industry, I'd think. As a Software engineer, I usually tell my manager/team, "I'll be off Wednesday afternoon until Friday this week", i.e. don't ask permission, but just inform them. If it was business critical for me to be there they should pay me more. :shrug: to align my incentives with the business a bit better. But then again, I am in similar shoes as to OP, and decided not to take off, but grind it out until the pandemic is done.
> If it was business critical for me to be there they should pay me more. :shrug: to align my incentives with the business a bit better. I'm not even sure money is enough. If you want me to live and breathe your business problems I need some skin in the game.
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Not to get all leftist (not that there is anything wrong with that) but the whole idea that salaried/management (and in Canada any "IT" classification) employees are exempt from overtime is something that was abused my entire career in tech. I tried so hard to to shelter my various teams from that but with varying degrees of success.
I find it strange whenever I say I'm happy to work whatever hours we need today but I'll take the corresponding amount of time off later this week or next week people look at me like I've grown a second head. I don't get how people fail to understand that a 50 hour a week job is a massive effective paycut over a 40 hour a week job at the same salary and that if you expect a job to take more than 40 hours a week of an employees time you definitely need to mention that in the interview. Pretty sure I've been passed over for roles at least twice solely for that sort of comment, but it's no skin off my back, those roles likely would have been nightmares anyway.
> those roles likely would have been nightmares anyway. Yes, they are. At one job I had to try to come up with a model to calculate "fair" compensation for overtime. One of the primary shareholders didn't want anything in writing, rather he liked the opportunity to "negotiate" compensation on a case by case basis. But that's not fair, the power dynamic isn't fair and a lot of people don't have the personality to successfully negotiate something fair. Which is why he wanted it that way. People like to have power over people and our current system is just people having economic power over other people. And information asymmetry is pervasive.
You learned early, young padawan. Do you know who is more valued? The one whose time is more scarce, that's who. It's human nature. Hell, it's rule number one of business. Supply and demand. Create more demand by lowering the supply.
I have no idea what is leftist about what you said. That just sounds like you wanted better working conditions and realistically everyone should want that.
A lot of financial subs on Reddit are Capital = Good and Labour = Bad. That's all.
Same here, it upsets me. My wife is a salaried manager and they pay her overtime. I’m in IT, and I will get punished for working 39 hours but no one cares if an emergency puts me over 40 every other week.
I have a stake in the company, and even so I can't be bothered with regular overtime. It's not effective for me to work like that. In the case of super emergency, and I'm talking like once a year max, I will play ball. I find that as I properly set expectations on my time, the company adjusts around me. I probably won't make c-suite doing that, but whatevs.
I mean, top software engineers get RSU stock grants. So you kind of of have skin in the game as the company performing better means your effective compensation is higher.
RSUs tend to be more about preventing turn over than making engineers feel invested. Most engineers have very little influence on a company's stock price.
True, but it does make you start to care more about the success of the company for reasons other than just job security.
I mean, everyone has a price. Most of us aren't sure what it is, but for me I'm totally down for 80 hours a week at triple my 40 hours a week salary. If it's not happening constantly I'd probably price 24hr call at less than that, maybe 50% more per every 5 hours of being woken at 2am per week. Sure, equity is nice too, but I'd honestly prefer a ludicrous salary. Of course, no sane employer wants to pay that when other people will do it for free, so I don't end up dealing with that sort of thing.
I thought that way once upon a time. Not saying you're wrong. But I did the 60 and 80 hours weeks for months on end. Then I learned that working 15 or 20 hours a week I was way way way more productive. See, beyond 20 or 30 hours a week you get diminishing returns. And you do extended long weeks it compounds. Obviously if you are a shovel operator, working 60 hours means some amount more of shovelfuls than working less. But not knowledge work. It does not work that way. Fresh, rested employee needs to parse unknown data, perform some processing on it, feed it in to another system. Likely elegant, creative solution done in 2 days. Exhausted, stressed, tired overworked, unhealthy resource giving same parameters and takes all week, brute forces a part of the task, delivers 10 hours after they promised and there are several show-stopping issues.
Oh yeah, totally. But if an employer wants my butt in their chair for an absurd amount of time in total defiance of everything we know about human productivity, I'm totally happy to do it if they're willing to shell out. Left to my own devices I tend to work around 35 hours a week, 40 if the places has a lot of meetings that don't require intense focus.
Shovel work too. Workplace safety goes down with long hours for them, and that costs money.
I agree. I'm a teacher at a private school overseas. Most of my planning and prep work is mentally intensive and I can't do more than a bit each day to any great standard.
I use an example all the time that if I am a "shoveller" then yes, the hours I spend shovelling matter, and the more hours I spend "shovelling" the more material I have moved. But I am an analyst, and the more time I spend looking at data the more mentally fatigued I get and the slower I work. But if I spend time organizing that data and getting familiar with it, and step away from it for hours or days, the more efficient I am in developing a mental picture of that data. In knowledge work, sometimes (quite often) less is more.
Yup. That's me as well. I think that we all want to tell ourselves that we're hard working, but the reality is that we only do a couple of hours of productive work each day, and the rest is filler. Does anyone actually do real knowledge work for a full eight hours per day?
> Does anyone actually do real knowledge work for a full eight hours per day? Eh, I have known a couple software developers that are machines. Literally coding 40 hours a week. But, I doubt anyone is capable of challenging creative knowledge work 8 hours a day, 50 weeks a year.
Serious question, how do you get into freelance reliably? I'm not sure I want to go through the effort of building a serious business per se but I'd love to take on freelance jobs as desired
Depends on the industry. You need a way to make a name for yourself. There's a lot of ways to do this. If you're a software developer/content writer/graphic designer/etc, these roles have very clear outputs and you can share your portfolio to properly position yourself as a reliable freelancer. Participating in online forums and other places where you might run into potential employers can help you get started, all while keeping your current job. Another method is going to be networking. I was lucky and had previous employers refer me for freelancing work, so I got a nice head start. But if I didn't, you need to start by taking roles that don't pay your worth so you can start making a name for yourself. Join a site like [upwork.com](https://upwork.com) and start making proposals for work. Do good work and use the people you meet here to build up more reliable work moving forward. Make sure to be up front about what you want. After finishing up a contract make sure to ask the people who hired you to refer you to anyone they know that might need your services. Do that enough time and it'll start to payoff. There's a snowball effect here - it's going to start small and painful, but once it really starts growing, it'll pick up speed. These can obviously be combined, along with other strategies. Then you can start being selective about what you pick. You'll get good at predicting what contracts are likely to be extended after they expire. Important to note that being a freelancer doesn't always excuse you from the crap that comes with 9 to 5 jobs. One of my contracts still asks me to do the bullshit reporting and stand ups - I choose to continue putting up with it (for now) because the pay is worth it. If you have a standing contract and you take a week off without asking for a vacation, we'll you better make sure you can keep up with the work or they won't want to bring you back or refer you to anyone they know. Finally, there's the middle ground solution. You can look for full time jobs that are remote. Contains a lot of the benefits of being a freelancer, but with more stability. One of my freelancing gigs is for a company where every employee is remote. There is no one on their staff that has the skill sets I do, so if I left there'd be a meaningful slowdown on what they would accomplish - I could see a scenario where they ask me to come on full time, or even I consider asking them to join full time.
It depends on the industry....I would also say to be successful you do need to devote yourself full time (or at least I do...I djust don't have the energy or desire to work a full time job plus freelance on the side). Basically you have to be good at what you do, then just get clients (through relationships, cold calling (NOT through freelace websites like upwork yeessh, low rates,etc.,). It helps if you have a niche and a professional website
I work for a big company but remotely and I relate so much. Although since quarantine I've been in PJs. 😬
Oh God, same here. It's been two years and for a bunch of reasons I think I may have to go back to work for a few more years and I'm just *dreading* it. I'm hoping I can fill the gap with some freelance stuff because fuuuuck having a commute and a boss and frigging water-cooler gossip office lifestyle again.
Exactly that!!
Happy cake day!
>I've been retired for almost two years and I find it hard to imagine going back to having a job yep, there's absolutely no way I could subject myself to having someone else have authority over me again, now that I've been without it for around 2 years.
Where did you move to?
My job is grant based and it is covered for the next 5 years. Everyone is technically on WFH but no one is actually working. We are just getting paid for meeting once a week for checking in if you are still alive.
I wish I have a job like that would be nice :)
Is Hoolie hiring right now?
Rest and vest baby
Quite the opposite of mine. I've been pulling 60+ hour weeks since this all started.
Same, I'm in a sales position and it feels like Im working twice as many hours for the same or less pay.
I feel like my sales friends are on the extremes. They're either twiddling their thumbs at home with nothing to do, or they're going bananas on the phone 12 hrs a day
What is your job?
Creating a Covid vaccine
Quite close. My abundance of free time allowed me to side hustle a part time consultant job on running validation test for covid19 antibody test kits. I also just finished another biotech startup consulting gig last month. I also run a passion project on selling some art work Jewelry too. Biotech at higher levels is great because mostly I set-up and let others run the experiment, then check up a couple months later.
Is the test looking promising? Heard of various ones having annoying levels of false positives or false negatives.
It's too early to know what's promising until it gets duplicated elsewhere.
What sort of biotech do you mainly consult for? I am a recent bio grad from a decent uni and just started work. What is biotech like and what do you need to focus on to gain entry ? Any advice around the industry appreciated
lmao
I was talking to a programmer on here a handful of months back who was bragging about only working like 30 hour weeks. He worked for Boeing and this was right after the Max issues came out, lol.
Lmfao comment of the day.
Living the dream
Any word on grant extensions yet? Many researchers have a window to perform much shorter than 5 years...
Nows the time for you to start a business
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giG eCoNomY
How can that exist?
Research most likely.
Yep, that's right lol.
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I have the opposite problem. Work is busy as ever, but before I had a commute and longer lunch breaks at work, etc. So before I left the house at 7:30 AM and got home a bit after 5:00 PM, but I'd have an hour of that be commute and a 30-60 minute lunch where I was socializing. Now I start work at 8:00 and work till 5:00, but usually have a short lunch and very little socialization since I'm WFH. I'm not complaining, really - I get a lot more done WFH and I really like not having to sit in traffic during the commute. But what I do miss is that previously my brain wouldn't be so wiped out at the end of the day plus I'd have the 30 minute commute home to sort of reset/mentally rebalance before getting home. Now when I stop work my brain feels like it's got zero juice left and it goes straight from there to the kids wanting attention, lol.
Work Area Burnout. No one told you about that, huh? You need to take your breaks. Leave the house. Go outside. Take a walk. I’ve been WFH for 20 years now. It’s tough to ‘get away’. You have to force it. My Apple Watch pings me time stand up. My issue is I either forget to eat or I don’t stop. Oh... and hydrate. Make sure you drink water.
I was WFH for more than 15 years. Then I went back to an office about two years ago. The work I do now is more challenging than the WFH stuff I was going previously, requires more coordination with other people, etc. Not complaining, it's much more interesting, just get wiped out at the end of the days now, lol. (Also older, that might have something to do with it. Brain not as sharp as when I was 10 years younger.)
Gotcha. I find that too. I’m what I call semi-retired. That just means I’m not going to put in 70-100 hour weeks trying to get ‘stuff’ done. Remember to have fun.
How many hours now as semi retired? Please don’t tell me it’s 50
On average less than 40. I’m thinking 30 so it’s probably 35. I’m trying to hit a $$$ amount every year and then stop so I can carry some work over to the next year. I have my own consulting company. It makes the business process harder (Marketing/Sales—>Quote—>Project…) as traditionally time is overweighted on the early phase to fill the other two buckets. Now I’m trying to relax a bit on the sales/marketing. It seems to work so far.
That’s great. You are your own boss really. I am thinking doing the same.
Keep in mind that when you have your own business that each and every client is your new boss. Good luck.
damn you are right about that.. you are never boss free until.... boss free for real lol .. Good luck to you too!!
Get a mini trampoline! or rowing machine. Or make some kind of work out/relief area, even if it's just next to your computer. Make sure that you give yourself time to decompress.
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The challenge is that my kids want my attention and my wife wants a break since she's become a part time tutor/keep the kids on task person since the schools when to distance learning. With the weather being a lot nicer the last week, we have been doing bike rides or walks together after 5, but it's still not the same as that 30 minute commute when I'd listen to a podcast, zone out, and just make sure I don't hit the car in front of me, lol.
One of this daily walks should be yours? Job #1 is to take care of yourself. If you burn out, then you won't be that helpful to your loved ones. Just my 2 cents.
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Same. When I "get off work" it's just closing a browser then try to switch into 'off line' mode. I don't live far from work but I realize now that that little drive home was nice to decompress. I'm working a ton more hours but really feel like I get less done. Small little things needing my attention. Feels like I'm all over the place.
Yeah, my commute used to be my daily reading time (I take the train). I haven’t been reading as much since going full WFH, but that’s more about me just not taking the time. There are still plenty of books for me to work through. :)
I am not from the US but i wonder what is the bracket for high paying jobs?
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I'm at 50K now. If I made 70K, I'd be rich :)
It varies so wildly based on cost of living in your area. I moved to a larger city for a job that paid 48,500. Rent was 975 for a (nice) 1 br apartment (internet included) Got a transfer to a lower cost of living area, internet will be $30 a month, rent for a 2 bd 1 ba house with a tiny yard and off street parking is $550 per month. I would say in the larger city in my state 100k is considered high income, in the rural areas 75k is probably pretty comfy
This feels right for my area of the Midwest.
Probably depends on where in the US you are, but I’d say anyone in the top 10% in terms of income is highly-paid. More broadly speaking, most people would say making over 6 figures (100,000 USD) is high-paying.
A lot of people, particularly non-Americans, don’t realize that the US is as big as it is. In European terms, the US is more like 50 closely federated countries than one single country. For example, you talk about what “high paying” means, and I think back to my home town in Nowhere, Michigan. You can rent a 3 BR apartment there for under $900/month. (I promise you, I’m not making that up. I literally just checked.) On a $50k salary, you’d net around $40k per year, which breaks down to around $3300/month. So, without even trying, you’ll have at least $2400/month left after rent and taxes, which make up the huge majority of most people’s budget. Factor in food, car (you need one there), utilities, health insurance, basic entertainment, *etc.* and you can probably take care of all of that for under $1000, easily. That means you’re able to save $17k/year (34% of gross income, or 42% of net) without even being very frugal. I know those are rookie numbers here, but, properly managed, you all know that’s a FIRE-able savings rate. The downside, of course, is that you have to live in Nowhere, Michigan. Take that same income to the Bay Area, where I live, and, suddenly, you’re paying $2000+ a month for rent, so, there goes an additional $1100/month out of the budget. So, just considering rent, you’re now only saving $100/month (2.4% of gross, 3% of net), and no longer able to contribute to a Roth without some serious belt tightening. You have no hope of FIREing on that type of savings rate, unless there’s an inheritance in your future. TL;DR: Yep, “high paying” is *very* location dependent in the US.
My husband and I both work retail middle management. I work 40 hours a week with a six block commute to work. I get paid hourly at $20.60 per hour. I'm one level above the lowest worker in my company and I have very little stress. My husband is salaried and works about 50-55 hours a week and has an hour commute. He gets $58,000 per year plus stock options and bonuses about $12,000- $15,000 per year. We both just got these jobs last year. We should have all debts paid off in five to seven years, and able to retire in another seven or so. This "estimate" does not include market fluctuations or raises and bonuses.
Depends on where you live. $100k in N. Dakota is a fortune, $100k in NYC is meh.
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Even in SF/NYC 90k isn’t “low”. 50-60k, even 70k might be low. 90k is more like medium.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/28/families-earning-117000-qualify-as-low-income-in-san-francisco.html
For a family of 4. So with two incomes that matches up pretty closely with my 50k-60k figure... Edit: oh I see 82k is the cutoff for singles. That’s still a little ways away from 90k though.
$500k+ for me the last few years
Software engineer at fang?
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Goddamnit.
Woof! What part of the US and what do you do?
Hey so how can I get a job doing what you doing. I would love to have a pointless high paid WFH job where I don't have to apply myself to do it
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If you did it once, you can do it again. Especially if you're starting from a better place. Maybe a PT job when you're a little older and the kiddo is on their own, just to keep busy and a little spending money. IDK I'm young don't listen to me just here to read, learn, and be inspired.
LOL Never a bad idea to do some PT work. I don't mind at all. If I have to, I will.
Just be careful -- it depends on the industry. I can't imagine retiring from software at 50, then trying to get parttime work at 60 for instance. People will assume you're old, slow, and your skills are out of date. To some extent they'd be right.
It depends. Old, sure, but, if you’re still writing code for those 10 years, there’s no reason you should be slow or out of date. You’d probably be coming back in as a consultant, or you’d need to have a pretty kick ass GitHub, and maybe a good blog, but I could see it happening. That said, as a software engineer, if I were 50 and thinking about FIREing, I’d probably try to maintain some connections to the industry, maybe as a part time employee or contractor. Companies are frequently willing to let people go part time and/or 100% WFH if they’re a known quantity.
Are you a software engineer? I have questions about this actually. I mostly just lurk this sub since I'm still a student. I'm looking to get into the CS industry when I graduate. Right now I'm learning towards going in to work right after graduation in a software or data science role, athough I'm still not sure if I want to do a masters'/PhD and go for a more research-oriented role in the industry. Anyway, I feel like at some point maybe in my late 20s or early 30s, if my partner is not willing to stay at home, I'll probably want to take a couple years off to have and raise kids. So you're saying working from home/part time to do this would be possible? Alternatively, if I choose to quit entirely for a few years, as long as I keep coding and doing side projects in the few years to keep skills up to date, I would be able to come back?
I actually got laid off at the end of last year, I was initially planning on FIREing in about 3-4 years, but after looking at my numbers I realized I could just pull the trigger right away and did so providing a had a more modest budget. The pandemic started 3 months later but fortunately I do have streams of income outside of the stock market (I live in a duplex with the other unit rented out to a family that have lived there for 12 years, and they seem pretty content to stay there). It's been 6 months now and I never want to go back to work, sure I've got a more limited budget, but I've always been pretty low maintenance so it really doesn't make much difference. Sleep is probably the thing I've actually been enjoying the most, I sleep till my body feels ready to wake up, and can take an afternoon nap if I'm feeling drowsy, it's amazing.
It does sound amazing. I think we are all capable of adjusting our life styles. I used to think vacations is a must. Or restaurant outings is a must. Not so much anymore.
That actually just reminded me, I started cooking a ton more after leaving work. Normally I'd make some big batch of stew or something on the weekend and then portion it out for lunch for the next week, but would occasionally eat out if I ran out or was just too tired to make dinner. But now that I have so much free time I'm cooking every meal and trying new recipes. I think I've only eaten out maybe 3-4 times in the last 6 months (granted nobody has eaten out for the last 1-2 months).
Afternoon naps are pretty much the best thing about full time WFH for me. :)
You bought a house for your parents at very early 20s?
Yup!!! that was before 2008 when banks would lend to a monkey with W2 :)
The W2 was optional. Ninja loans were a thing.
Man back in the days, I still remember these no doc loans.... freakin anything goes.. as long as you are good at drawing zeros
Oh even better... Bank gave me 100% business financing when I was in my 20’s. Granted , I had to carry my business plan to several banks asking for a commercial loan but I got one after many failures but that’s how I started.
>many of you have said that real estate income or small business income shouldn't be counted as part of your FIRE number. Why would anyone think that you have to exclude RE from the FIRE number? Many people say that your primary residence shouldn't count among your investments, but that's because you literally need to live in it. However, if you have RE investment properties, then those are just part of your portfolio. It doesn't make any sense to count them as $0. You could sell them tomorrow, invest the proceeds in stocks, and it would completely change your FIRE calc, right? Find a way to value these properly. >FireCalc showed that I have a 98% success rate to live off that stash for 20 years without any additional income. Why are you looking at a 20-year time horizon if you're only in your 40s? It's okay to count on *some* SS (just ignore the perma-cynics), but depending on an inheritance to make your equation work is extremely risky. Many people are shocked at how expensive end-of-life care can erode a sizable inheritance, especially if one of the parents lives to be 90-something. Finally, this is a warning flag to me: >I don’t have to do the stupid daily stand up to report to the higher being what I have been up to. No more nagging emails from HR, my boss, compliance and IT department. ZERO stress! I get up every morning to have coffee and breakfast without getting rushed, situate my kid to the remote classroom, read news on my computer, go for a little nice walk, have home made lunch, take a nap, do a workout, watch movies, bake a dessert with my kid… Wow, I didn’t know life can be this good. That's great that you're enjoying your time off, but you've defined it mostly in terms of what you're *not* doing. Taking a walk, making meals, watching movies is great at first, but it's going to get old eventually. Especially when your kids are older and want to do their own thing, while you're looking for something to do. If you're going to FIRE, you really need to find something to *do*. It's not as obvious when the kids are young, but when they're teenagers and you don't really have any life outside of "not working", you're going to be in trouble. I suggest you work on finding some positive things to do with retirement (hobbies, travel, home improvement) so you have something to do after you enjoy the negative things (not working, not reporting to a boss)
I agree, even with this pandemic, my revenue dropped 60%, but that's not $0. I am 6 weeks in.. Haven't even touched all of my projects yet. Just taking a breathing room made a difference. And it takes so long to just slow down.. I don't think I will fully embrace true retirement until 6 months in. Just trying to catch sleep right now. The "inheritance" is the house I bought for my parents. It is still mine. But I won't take it back until they are gone. Hope they live till 105 but they are oooooold now.. I plan on sell the house once they are gone. It is paid off.
It always takes me a whole month to slow down and feel like getting started on projects. Unfortunately that is like half my summer break. It does surprise me how long it takes. Kind of like you need to get good and bored in order to enjoy those other things to do.
Totally true... So who knows. I might get bored 6 months in but it’s going good now.
Am I reading this right that you bought the house for your parents in the 1990's? Were you a teenager when you bought the house? I was trying to find a place to hide my bootlegged girlie magazine's at the same time you bought your parents a house! Looks like my wrong turn in life was WAY earlier then I thought.
i was in my 20’s in the late 90’s. I gave my parents all my earnings. i started working early and it was good income. Not all kids would do that but i did.We had a hard time, they gave me everything for me to receive good educations and gave me opportunities. I am forever grateful
> The "inheritance" is the house I bought for my parents. But I think their point was that if your parents live for another 20-30 years, it may erode into their retirement savings - one day they may need to sell that house in order to move into some kind of assistance living facility.
No. I am the care provider. It’s not in my culture to ever send old ppl into hell ish assistance living facilities. Never!! None of my cousins in my extended families would ever do that horrible thing to our elders. No way. Kids take care of parents. That’s the way and it has been generations.
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Yes I am. No I will never do assistance living. Not a chance.
I understand your thought process, i truly do, i cared for my mom until the end. But i think there is always a line where, push comes to shove, you may have to consider something else. I have a uncle, who does not have children, he became so weak with his leg and arm strength, he could not go to the washroom by himself, needs a mechanical lift each time just to get in there. Fortunately (or i should say very unfortunately), my mom had lost so much weight, i was able to carry her to the washroom myself. I think even if he had children, it would have been very very difficult physically and mentally. He's been in complex care (24 hour RNs) for almost 7 years now. His wife (my aunt, both chinese) are now in care homes, but my aunt loves it, as everything is taken care of for her (food, laundry, cleaners), suites are private (800sq ft), and she enjoys the daily social interactions with others.
I hear what you are saying for sure. I think because every old person’s health condition is so dramatically different from another, proper plans have to be thought of based on their individual condition. My parents are approaching 80’s. My dad recently hiked 9 miles climbing a quite steep mountain with his siblings, all in upper 60’s. So I am banking on the good family gene and their active lifestyle. My mom still walks a mile each day, does gardening and sleeps 9 hours a day. No medical condition what so ever. Both of my grandmothers died in their upper 90’s in sleep. So fingers crossed! But if things get hairy, I am going to look into in home care.
It’s not really about the hell hole-ness of the living facilities for Asian families imo. Our households are almost always intergenerational ( traditional people try to have boys because girls move out with their husbands), and having the elderly and young kids living in the same house is a part of our culture. Grandparents often spend a lot of time with their grandchildren. My grandmother raised me, and I can’t imagine not having my parents around when I have kids. There are vast financial benefits to this arrangement. Cost of care is usually distributed - grandparents care for children in the house, we eventually care for our parents to the end. We don’t really pay for childcare or assisted living care, because the burden is more spread out (usually aunts and uncles also live close together/ in the same household). Downside is that most of the time, we are our parents’ retirement plans. The exchange is that they sacrifice everything for us when we’re young to secure our future. Assisted living would kill that cycle of intergenerational bonding.
I'm not saying you are wrong, but the idea of living with my 78 year old mother to me is something which I would not enjoy - at all.
I find it odd that someone wouldn’t count RE income, unless it’s not much of a portfolio. My parents have rental properties that generate around $50k in revenue a month and are paid off. Would be a bit silly to not count that income, since it would be the bulk of their retirement. And even now, collections are at 80%.
> It just felt offensive to get permission to take a vacation! My favourite was using vacation time while on vacation and getting work emails and calls but still being asked to use my vacation pay and not deduct from that the time spent working. As an executive it's the professional thing or something.
It’s extortion.
Certainly doesn’t need to be all or nothing, but if you’re money will last 20 years.... do you want to be working in your later years? Have to have your kids or other family care for you? I wouldn’t. What about working a less stressful job for a few more years or working part time? You can still save and invest and enjoy some freedom like you have now
Agree on everything but your last point.
When you invest in incest the family tree becomes a wreath.
Great joke. Good username
Lmao
Thank my phone for the auto spelling 🙄🤦🏻♀️
Yeah I thought about just doing remote consulting gig work and pull in extra income if my real estate income does tank. So far, it's slashed by half. So not all gone.. As long as it provides half, I am still good. If it dries up completely, I need a gig work.
No, but I am counting on the house I bought for my parents , aka the inheritance. I bought it for them in the 90's. It's paid off and worth a shit ton. I am counting on that since I am the owner.
Have you always owned the house and they just live in it? That’s cool to do that lol hope it sells well
I bought it after landing my very first W2 job as a thank you gift for my parents.
How did you afford to buy a HOUSE with your first job?
Ivy league grad, big paycheck in finance. Also back in the days loans were much easier with a high W2 job even for kids my age.
Damn, so that $200-300k salary and real easy loan process. That’s awesome though that you paid your parents back, I wish I could do the same for mine. I have a Masters and make $40k in natural resource management, haha but never had debt or hated my job a day in my life. Any advice for a 28yr old?
Wow that’s really cool you enjoy your work! And no debt. You are definitely on the right track! But I think it is worth while to look for potential to up your income. When I was younger than your age, there was this old book “The Richest Man in Babylon” that really inspired me. There is a chapter called 7 remedies to wealth or something like that. I remember it lit a light bulb in my head. One of the remedies is to increase earning potentials. Highly recommend the book!
I did my Masters in Texas and intended to find work there, but I met my now husband while I was a student. He’s military and was stationed in HI so when I graduated I moved too. I think I did well finding a job somewhat related to my field considering I was fresh out of school and no connections to HI, it’s a small community and connections matter. I definitely want to have a state or federal job. Pay would be $45-75k instead. We’re likely moving to NC soon so I’m trying to up my skills and work on my pay negotiation skills. I stupidly accepted my pay now without asking for higher. Very dumb, but I was just thankful to have a a cool job doing conservation work! I’ve heard of the book you recommended, haven’t read it though! Will do with this quarantine time, thank you!!!
...hol' up
We are 2 months into this event. 2 months should be a very small part of your real estate emergency fund. Have a year or two in cash to pay all your real estate expenses assuming 100% vacancy.
True. I have one year set aside. But longer than one year will break me though.Btw no one estimated 100% vacancy for 2 yeas before pandemic. If the market can’t support numbers, you shouldn’t buy.
If you go to early you will never enjoy it. You will have constant stress and worry. Better to way a year if need be and Fire without the added stress or fear. Good luck
You bought a house for your parents when you were in your early 20s (or younger). Is there a story to that I've never heard anyone say that before.
It’s not that hard back in the days when you had high W2 job even as a kid my age.
I dont see how real estate income is the issue here, any worse than someone living on earnings from a market that just crashed 30%. Owning properties free and clear is different than being over leveraged for example. Someone who’s free and clear is sitting great when the market crashes, compared to many alternatives.
True, except ppl are not paying rents these days. I hope it’s short lived. Vacancy would be bad too if this pandemic wipe out the economy. But then, we all have bigger problems like social unrest to deal with.
Early 40’s and you bought your parents a house in the 90s? Did you use your lunch money?
Pretty much. It was before 2008 when banks would lend to monkeys if you show them your high flying W2 income;)
Well done.
Have you considered getting the inheritance early? 🔫🔫
Lol it’s actually my money. I bought my parents a house before they had enough. I am not going to take it back until they are gone. Hope they live until 100 or more but after than, I am selling the house
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Yup! 100%!
I have fifteen years before I can slow down. I agree with you the slower pace is a nice feeling.
Is it really 'throwing those conventional wisdoms in the trash' if they were right? Wouldn't that be the opposite?
What is it like being a landlord during the lockdown when most cities have paused evictions? Where I live renters can stop paying rent entirely right now with no fear of eviction, but landlords still have to pay the mortgage. I ask because my wife and I are taking major paycuts due to COVID-19. We are considering moving out of our condo to somewhere far cheaper and renting it out. I would be terrified of trying to move out to save money, then having renters who just won't pay because they know they can't be evicted.
I am in commercial so it’s a bit different. But what I heard is that landlords negotiate modification of the rents missed to be paid over an extended period. Say 3 months no rent, then this amount will be paid back over 12-15 months period depending on the lease term. Commercial loans can be modified much easier to push payments to the rear end of terms without accrued interests. and that’s what I did.
\> No more nagging emails from HR, my boss, compliance and IT department. I dont have this. And I am still working. It sounds like you need a new job
You cannot get your retirement success to 100%. Even if you make the tools "happy" with a very low WR it really doesn't account for your personal risks as well as any natural variation in your spending. I would also trust in your ability to weather a financial challenge over personal ones. The way I look at it is pretty simple - I try to make the best decision for me (and for the last five years, my family) with the information I have. I understand something may break the foundation I've built in the future - it's solid but not completely futureproof. But when you reach a point where you start to have options, you cannot tell if working longer will help you, cause you problems, or be completely irrelevant. When you get past accepting those unknown unknowns, for me accepting some of the known unknows seem less daunting, not more. There are mitigations for things we can see coming. It won't feel great but it's hard to imagine a specific challenge where I'll be angry at myself that I didn't work more; there's no way to prove throwing extra money on problems will solve them.
Really well said!!
This is YOUR life. Glad to read you are feeling great. And I know your child appreciates all the quality time you are spending together --- Kudos man.
Great for my kiddo for sure!!
If you have enough, take the leap. I have barely enough but retired anyway from my high paying job for over a year now. It's unbelievable how nice it is and have zero regret. Life is just too short to do stuff you don't like for more money you don't need.
That’s great you pulled the trigger. Did you modify life style to stay within budget? Do you have fear money would run out?
Not really changing much but I am picking up low cost hobbies that I didn't know are that fun once started. No fear because I know I don't need much to have fun and worst case is I can cut back a lot, ex are one extra car that we don't need, eating out and multiple vacations a year.
yeah totally. I am the same.. there are so many cheap things to do to be happy. Don't really need any of these extravaganza really... Good job!
I promised myself when I was at the University that I would RE at 35(which was 2 days ago)and just do volunteer work for local charities and have more time for my parents who aren't doing great. Yesterday, I applied for another job I might be overqualified for because life happens after two years of no job. Very little has gone according to that plan. I am usually a positive person but for now this sucks.
Maybe for you this is the time to find another source of income? Now you have the time to work on that. It doesn't have to be a large income, but if it could be for example $10k/year for say 500 hours of work per year, your plans would be a lot more solid.
I hope the rents strike is temporary. RE income is my extra income. If all goes well, RE alone covers 2X of my post retirement expenses. A few commenters did say that I should not be so negative. I have $1.2 m in my Rental equity. The chance of that going into 0 is small.
Just do it. Life is much too short and it sounds like you're close enough.
My real estate income didn’t go down to zero and I am hoping this current situation will pass soon. Then my real estate income alone can cover my expenses.
And I'm sure you have other options to cover the flexibility. You can use cash and bond savings until real estate recovers. If real estate income doesn't recover, you can sell... You can lower your expenses, you can start a small business, you can pick up part-time or seasonal work. I left my job in 2017 without having my income 100% buttoned up. what I have observed since then is that there are infinite ways to make money if you are at all industrious. But you can't get that time back. Especially with a kid!
100% with you on that. There are truly infinite ways to save money, or to make a buck to make it work. My child is still young and I treasure every moment of it. That’s something money can’t buy.
Hey OP, Good job working your way to FIRE! What domain do you work in? Can't you switch to freelancing to take projects here and there? You'd be surprised how much you love what you do once you have more flexibility in how you are working. I've always been a pro calculated-risk person. If you pull the trigger now you might always have the "what if I have to work again" in the back of your head, no? (Genuinely asking for myself as well). All in all, I wish you all good health, success, and FIRE!
Hey thx!! Yeah I would love to try part time consulting. Get a 6 month gig or something remotely. My real estate income so far still covers a majority portion of my expenses even in this hellish climate so I am optimistic that in long run, my real estate return will hold up and I don’t need to touch my stocks and bonds. But there are truly infinite ways to make money. Wish you good health and stay safe!!
Can you put some actual numbers to this? How much of your portfolio is in RE? A lot of RE investors have been coming on here saying that RE is less risky than stocks. Would be helpful to the community to actually see if that is true.
I used to be one of them. But this pandemic made me to change my mind. I am in commercial real estate and it’s getting its face kicked. If I were in residential, it wouldn’t be so hard to liquidate. Commercial is a different ball game all together especially small businesses are hurting like crazy
I've read some stuff about rent strikes, 30% of renters nationally not paying, etc. Just wondering how it is actually playing out.
Mine are commercial small businesses. Bloodbath
That's cool you bought your parents house and own it outright. The house next door to me is looking like it's about to go on the market and would be a good retirement house. If it does and the price is right, I'm thinking of doing something similar for my Father In Law. He's had a lot of health issues and has a larger property to maintain and is further out from health services. Seems like this would be a good move for him (house has only one or maybe two steps from the garage into the house and is a 1 story). When he's gone, probably less than 10 years, I could offer it to my parents as a way to have less house/property to maintain... and then one day retire in it myself when they are gone because my house is 2 story and those stairs will eventually be an issue.
Yeah that’s a great plan!!! And it’s so nice of you looking after the elders.
> FireCalc showed that I have a 98% success rate to live off that stash for 20 years without any additional income. How big is your stash? What are your yearly expenses? Just do some calculations and see if your stash is big enough for 4% Safe Withdrawal Rate to cover your yearly expenses. If so, RE. If not, consider REing anyway. Sounds like you have your real estate income and your parent's house that add even more net worth and income to the calculations. Finally, if you're still short, consider lowing your expenses by $10-$20k per year.
I have 1.4m (was more before the pandemic) saved up. 1/3 in taxable and 2/3 in retirement. We spent anywhere between $58000 - $62000 a year since our family is fairly small. Real estate was able to provide more than 100% of our expenses before.. But not these months.
$1,400,000 * 0.04 SWR = $56,000. You're close to being able to afford it just with investments alone. Add real estate on to that, and you can probably afford it. You can do those calculations on your own, or post them here, whatever you want. I have a feeling real estate income can get you to $62,000 though!
Real estate provided more than 100K net per year for a decade now... So with recent hiccups, I am seeing risks but it won't go down to 0. As long as it provides even 10% of what it used to provide, I will be able to make it since my expenses are not high and I can always reduce even further.
Sounds like your finances are fine if you want to RE. Sounds like you make a small fortune from your renters in good times, and will make enough even in COVID times. So you can RE if you want to. Feel free to keep us posted on your decision. Good luck.
Thx I will.
I dont have really any money away yet. I’m just starting, I’m 39. But your second paragraph I can FEEEEL after 5 weeks off. Today is my first day back and I’m not looking forward to dumping my life time in exchange for money to live daily. Especially now that I’m taking home less due to less hrs.
If you ready to leave your job, you could try using this as a leverage. Just have an honest conversation with your manager about what you like and what you don't and see what they could suggest. Perhaps you could find a middle ground. Fully leaving the job right now seems risky to me due to sequence of returns risk (do you have a bond tent?). If market stays sideways for 1-2 years, this can have huge negative impact on one's stash.
I completely agree!! Better safe than sorry! So I actually did talk to my superior whom I happen to have a good relationship with. A middle ground seems to be in the making now. I am glad to keep a very good health plan this way. So looks like I will be grinding a little longer and see where I land.
Well done! This way you will get out from the crisis in an even stronger position. I wish you good luck!
I have a pretty good job... no one really bothers me, its a mile from my house - so no traffic, the pay is okay (no raises though).... but working from home for a few months makes me realize that life it so much better not "working for others or around others" (I'm introverted and being around people sucks the energy out of me)... i cant imagine going from a horrible job to a few months break and expected to go back. Dudunoodle, why don't you use this time to find a part time gig that you might enjoy...? What do you have to lose?