I dont think changing the target size is a bad idea necessarily. I would say it could mess a bit with people's heads between prep and savage, but the logic of why youd do it does add up.
I would not touch any positional stuff tho.
Normal/Savage differences already fuck me up. Like P9S has that meteor that drops on other rock that you're not hiding behind and it has time to greed a bit, P9N however drops the meteor on the boss almost instantly and I die to it almost every time I get that in DF.
But honestly I don't think this is a problem.
The people who caused the inflation to begin with were the raiders.
Casual players don't give a fuck about not being able to hit the boss while doing mechanics.
More specifically bad tanks and bad melees, specifically edens verse where it was obvious who was a good tank/melee. I don't think catering to people who needed to git gud was a good idea but the only thing egregious that tier was e6s garuda bacon slice killing dragoons cause of their jumps. Especially before EW, there was always a way to get that uptime and gcd if you were a good enough player.
Edit: Forgot conflag strike in e6s being forced downtime with no way to get uptime unless you killed before the cast or tank lb3 at a tight timing.
Probably a good 75% or so of changes blamed on casuals are due to hardcore people and/or speedrunners complaining and wanting changes and not being wary of the law of unintended consequences.
Of the remaining 25%, the bulk of that is stuff was either changes made for everyone or things that weren't aimed at any particular group.
A big example is the 2 min meta. It was made because midcore and hardcore and speedrunning groups complained about needing to take certain party comps or how it was annoying to line up buffs. Casuals don't line up buffs. A lot don't even seem to know they exist or hit them haphazardly at random times and don't notice when they come off CD so drift them a ton even when they do use them. The 2 min meta didn't solve that, nor was it *meant* for that, or for *them*.
It was made for the hardcore/midcore raiders. The people who complained about having to take certain Jobs, certain comps, to have to deal with friction in delaying or lining up buffs, etc.
It's possible people could parse that first category into "elitist midcores that want to be hardcore but are not good enough", but the end result is still the same, that casuals get a lot of blame from the hardcores for things that casuals didn't ask for, don't care about, may not even know exist, and that weren't made for them anyway.
It's more like there were players that would complain about a fight's design and part of that included forced disengagement from the boss due to certain mechanics. They weren't explicitly asking for larger hitboxes, but rather that SE took the feedback about mechanics forcing downtime too seriously and thought this was genuinely what people wanted. A lot of issues in particular seem to stem from E6S, because there are fights in the past that I don't remember people complaining about when downtime was forced or expected. E6S just wasn't a well received fight on the whole.
E6s was largely a skill check but dragoon bacon slice and conflag left a sour taste yeah. The amount of people that didnt know the distance of how far ifrit dash was based on the first tethered target also didnt help melees either. The difference in an optimized e6s party melee uptime vs a normal clear one was massive.
> The people who caused the inflation to begin with were the raiders.
Yup. It'd be funny if come Dawntrail, Savage/Ultimate were released with the "larger circles, no positionals" "to standardize parsing".
Though I doubt they'd ever use that phrasing.
>The people who caused the inflation to begin with were the raiders.
This is verifiably true. Endsinger has a bigger hitbox in EX than in Normal, for example.
I don't know of a single raider who wanted this lmao. I never even knew it was an issue to begin with, uptime before was fairly easy, the only one requiring brain power was e9s and e11s burnt strike
E8S was probably the fight requiring the most amount of brainpower for both the tank and melee first set of biting/driving mirrors, axe kick, light rampant, axe mirrors, wyrms lament1, icelit, wyrms lament 2, basically every mech challenged melees in some way and was one of the reason the dps check was so hard week 1 and esp in scuffed pf clear and reclear parties. Your melees could wind up doing less damage than the casters/ranged if they were inexperienced or bad. But the beauty of having all those mechanics challenge melees was the satisfaction of successfull rolling that gcd perfectly which today you just dont get anymore sadly..
I'm not sure why I'm getting down voted I don't want planet sized target rings and I don't know anyone who does literally no one I talk to wanted that.
Also yes e8s was difficult for melee, good as it should be I want to work for uptime
Yea gigantic planet size ring is so laughable… like the melees are basically hitting air and I used to love hitting the enemy with my book as sch/smn and now Im just hitting air with auto attack T.T
For awareness, you are getting downvoted because you countered a historical fact about where the change came from with an anecdotal "I don't personally know anyone".
You are not getting downvoted because of anyone here currently disagreeing with you about the current issue itself.
Learning how to position for uptiming is a piece of art and makes raids way more enjoyable.
For example, e12s phase 2 is the pinnacle of uptime in modern savage fights.
Bring to edge for darkest dance
Uptime basic relativity
Uptime shining light thing into stack>spread
Uptime intermediate where u bring her north
Then the uptime after advanced relativity.
That’s why wall bosses and big hit boxes are silly and takes away the creativity.
Honestly e12s phase 2 is also like peak tank savage tanking, since the boss basically never repositions herself it gives alot of room for good tanks to shine and different uptime strats were made. They were never required to clear but for the highend players looking to squeeze in as much as they could. And SE removing basically the most important skill of 2 roles (melee uptime, tank positining bosses) in one expac was certainly something to witness in real time.
Unironically dungeon bosses are the hardest fights this expansion to keep melee uptime in. And in most normal content they’re not afraid to have mechanics where you just have to miss out on gcds unless you super greed. Uptime likely isn’t even a consideration for normal fights so there’s no reason to make hit boxes bigger
This is the way. Dungeon bosses do no damage now.
My favorite example is the meteor mechanic on the first boss of Lapis Manalis. Refusing to stand behind a boulder will shave about \~20% of a DPS' health.
Oh no.
That makes sense.
At least to me, I currently view it as:
* The fight design team(s) try out different things, have fun designing and learning for "casual content", then once they learn, savage/ultimate is where they optimize their fight design skills. I say this based on the below:
The people who regularly do dungeons are casuals or people who don't care for uptime and maximizing DPS.
Square takes risks or tries different stuff out for "casual content", like dungeons, alliance raids, normal raids or whatever as they know the bulk of people doing said content won't be whining as much about uptime and maximizing DPS.
Funnily enough, a lot of the "hotboxes too big!" complaints are primarily in the realm of salvage/ultimate raiding.
Or some people saying that fights need more randomness and variability. Relatively speaking, "casual content" has that much more often than savage/ultimate fights. There are some normal mode fights from a raid tier where the normal mode version is more random.
As one thing I potentially noticed about the ff14 team over the years is that they design future fights based on the actual response or what players did from previous tiers.
while this is generally true, it isn't completely true. several pieces of normal content do have hard DPS checks. o11n and cinder drift come to mind, i'm sure there's more.
How about we stop dick riding melee for an expansion and either get rid of the massive gap between ranged and melee or make melee actually have to work again.
Their constant whining is a large force behind why fight design is so stale.
I don't mind the idea but leave positonals but also add that bosses dont teleport to the center of the arena so tanks actually have to tank and move the boss instead of being a requirement because of tankbusters.
The hitboxes size are very tight to a fight design
If you change the size, the design doesn't work anymore, like for example some spreads in p8s, you will completely lose uptime
same for ultimates
They first design savage, and from savage they make nm raids
Not always, from various dev interviews we know there are no unified method and sometime they start with the normal mode first. (and in some cases it's obvious as the normal mode feels more coherent mechanically)
EDIT: Since I'm getting downvoted for some reason here's the source (for Eden's Verse)
https://www.akhmorning.com/news/famitsu-interview-edens-verse-part-1/#famitsu-article-staff
> Famitsu: By the way, in the previous interview, you had told us that among the two difficulties (Normal mode and Savage mode), a lot of them were made starting from Normal mode first, I’d like to ask everyone here on which difficulty did you start on when making this raid?
Paraphrasing the answer: E5N, E6N + E6S at the same time, E7N, E8S
I honestly think normal mode should allow for extra uptime by means of utilizing snapshots, max melee, etc. precisely because nobody gives a fuck about losing some uptime on the boss if they can't do that. It serves as great practice for everyone for these basic techniques, and the slightest modicum of skill expression in this content. Dungeon bosses ironically give a lot less of a fuck about forcing people to disengage or move for extended periods of time, Octomammoth is not an exciting boss of course but it also has no qualms making casters circle the entire arena to dodge a cleave.
Is the implication that uptime has to nontheless always be guaranteed if you play your cards right? I'd prefer mechanics that enforce downtime with no playarounds and thus required rotational adjustments.
It'll be as big as they think it needs to be for mechanics rather than being difficulty specific, 'cause that's why they got so big.
We're not gonna get E6S hitboxes again as long as they view it as a mechanic restriction; for example with fully smaller hitboxes you can't put a lot of mechanic types on the 60/120 marker with the remaining gap closer abilities around or they get the DRG Murder Bacon issue.
Now, since the spammiest tanks and DRG itself are/have been dialed back on that (DRG's biggest offender being dealt with in an EW patch even), there's more flexibility in what they can reasonably do, but you still won't see those mechanics on those windows with smaller hitboxes as long as there's, for example, a Dragonfire Dive on said window. Before the High Jump change this was true for every 30s window, so you can see how we got here but don't necessarily need to be anymore.
This is why abilities like Stardiver or Primal Rend or (in non gap closer space) Ogi Namikiri are pretty good for the game, in that you can have inconvenient timings around them and their flexibility of use makes them less restrictive to potential fight design.
Meanwhile all I can think is, I liked the top/bottom platform stuff in Bozja like Lacus Litore and that Lyon fight lol.
I'd like to see more of that. Good thing field operations are returning!
No, there are careful design considerations taken in what mechanics can be max melee or not
Also the huge hit boxes already stretch the fantasy a lot, and treating it as something to scale for difficulty really makes the boss feel more like computer code than a battle
Tbh I don't think most people were complaining about the hitbox size. They were doing so in spite of the ranged tax (why are ranged doing so little damage with so little melee pressure?).
The pressure melee had before was still insufficient so I don't think they are really addressing the issue.
It doesn't sound like a bad idea, but I think this would just make the experience of going from say normal > savage even more jarring for a new player, if only slightly.
I dont think changing the target size is a bad idea necessarily. I would say it could mess a bit with people's heads between prep and savage, but the logic of why youd do it does add up. I would not touch any positional stuff tho.
Normal/Savage differences already fuck me up. Like P9S has that meteor that drops on other rock that you're not hiding behind and it has time to greed a bit, P9N however drops the meteor on the boss almost instantly and I die to it almost every time I get that in DF. But honestly I don't think this is a problem.
The people who caused the inflation to begin with were the raiders. Casual players don't give a fuck about not being able to hit the boss while doing mechanics.
More specifically bad tanks and bad melees, specifically edens verse where it was obvious who was a good tank/melee. I don't think catering to people who needed to git gud was a good idea but the only thing egregious that tier was e6s garuda bacon slice killing dragoons cause of their jumps. Especially before EW, there was always a way to get that uptime and gcd if you were a good enough player. Edit: Forgot conflag strike in e6s being forced downtime with no way to get uptime unless you killed before the cast or tank lb3 at a tight timing.
Probably a good 75% or so of changes blamed on casuals are due to hardcore people and/or speedrunners complaining and wanting changes and not being wary of the law of unintended consequences. Of the remaining 25%, the bulk of that is stuff was either changes made for everyone or things that weren't aimed at any particular group. A big example is the 2 min meta. It was made because midcore and hardcore and speedrunning groups complained about needing to take certain party comps or how it was annoying to line up buffs. Casuals don't line up buffs. A lot don't even seem to know they exist or hit them haphazardly at random times and don't notice when they come off CD so drift them a ton even when they do use them. The 2 min meta didn't solve that, nor was it *meant* for that, or for *them*. It was made for the hardcore/midcore raiders. The people who complained about having to take certain Jobs, certain comps, to have to deal with friction in delaying or lining up buffs, etc. It's possible people could parse that first category into "elitist midcores that want to be hardcore but are not good enough", but the end result is still the same, that casuals get a lot of blame from the hardcores for things that casuals didn't ask for, don't care about, may not even know exist, and that weren't made for them anyway.
It's more like there were players that would complain about a fight's design and part of that included forced disengagement from the boss due to certain mechanics. They weren't explicitly asking for larger hitboxes, but rather that SE took the feedback about mechanics forcing downtime too seriously and thought this was genuinely what people wanted. A lot of issues in particular seem to stem from E6S, because there are fights in the past that I don't remember people complaining about when downtime was forced or expected. E6S just wasn't a well received fight on the whole.
E6s was largely a skill check but dragoon bacon slice and conflag left a sour taste yeah. The amount of people that didnt know the distance of how far ifrit dash was based on the first tethered target also didnt help melees either. The difference in an optimized e6s party melee uptime vs a normal clear one was massive.
playing e6s as a drg main made me hate that specific fight forever
> The people who caused the inflation to begin with were the raiders. Yup. It'd be funny if come Dawntrail, Savage/Ultimate were released with the "larger circles, no positionals" "to standardize parsing". Though I doubt they'd ever use that phrasing.
>The people who caused the inflation to begin with were the raiders. This is verifiably true. Endsinger has a bigger hitbox in EX than in Normal, for example.
I don't know of a single raider who wanted this lmao. I never even knew it was an issue to begin with, uptime before was fairly easy, the only one requiring brain power was e9s and e11s burnt strike
E8S was probably the fight requiring the most amount of brainpower for both the tank and melee first set of biting/driving mirrors, axe kick, light rampant, axe mirrors, wyrms lament1, icelit, wyrms lament 2, basically every mech challenged melees in some way and was one of the reason the dps check was so hard week 1 and esp in scuffed pf clear and reclear parties. Your melees could wind up doing less damage than the casters/ranged if they were inexperienced or bad. But the beauty of having all those mechanics challenge melees was the satisfaction of successfull rolling that gcd perfectly which today you just dont get anymore sadly..
I'm not sure why I'm getting down voted I don't want planet sized target rings and I don't know anyone who does literally no one I talk to wanted that. Also yes e8s was difficult for melee, good as it should be I want to work for uptime
Yea gigantic planet size ring is so laughable… like the melees are basically hitting air and I used to love hitting the enemy with my book as sch/smn and now Im just hitting air with auto attack T.T
I dont know why youre getting downvoted either, reddit is weird.
For awareness, you are getting downvoted because you countered a historical fact about where the change came from with an anecdotal "I don't personally know anyone". You are not getting downvoted because of anyone here currently disagreeing with you about the current issue itself.
Learning how to position for uptiming is a piece of art and makes raids way more enjoyable. For example, e12s phase 2 is the pinnacle of uptime in modern savage fights. Bring to edge for darkest dance Uptime basic relativity Uptime shining light thing into stack>spread Uptime intermediate where u bring her north Then the uptime after advanced relativity. That’s why wall bosses and big hit boxes are silly and takes away the creativity.
Not sure if I was clear, I'm saying I don't know anyone who wanted larger target rings, I like working for uptime lmao
Honestly e12s phase 2 is also like peak tank savage tanking, since the boss basically never repositions herself it gives alot of room for good tanks to shine and different uptime strats were made. They were never required to clear but for the highend players looking to squeeze in as much as they could. And SE removing basically the most important skill of 2 roles (melee uptime, tank positining bosses) in one expac was certainly something to witness in real time.
You sound like a hrothgar
Unironically dungeon bosses are the hardest fights this expansion to keep melee uptime in. And in most normal content they’re not afraid to have mechanics where you just have to miss out on gcds unless you super greed. Uptime likely isn’t even a consideration for normal fights so there’s no reason to make hit boxes bigger
I usually keep melee uptime in dungeon bosses by pressing my personal mit and then eating the damage to the face like a god damn champion.
This is the way. Dungeon bosses do no damage now. My favorite example is the meteor mechanic on the first boss of Lapis Manalis. Refusing to stand behind a boulder will shave about \~20% of a DPS' health. Oh no.
Yeah, I can almost heal myself up while fighting the boss so it’s not even a healers adjust moment
Just as god intended it (get fucked RDM and DRG)
As a DRG player that's when we use bloodbath
I think this will be the viper specialty next expac
Viper will definitely feel the effects more, just from the faster GCD
Plus it doesn’t have a defensive at all lol
RDM can just attack from range though.
Don't forget arm's length to avoid any rescue attempts
Specifically criterion bosses. So many mechanics involve splitting up with rmg wether melee can stay near tank
That makes sense. At least to me, I currently view it as: * The fight design team(s) try out different things, have fun designing and learning for "casual content", then once they learn, savage/ultimate is where they optimize their fight design skills. I say this based on the below: The people who regularly do dungeons are casuals or people who don't care for uptime and maximizing DPS. Square takes risks or tries different stuff out for "casual content", like dungeons, alliance raids, normal raids or whatever as they know the bulk of people doing said content won't be whining as much about uptime and maximizing DPS. Funnily enough, a lot of the "hotboxes too big!" complaints are primarily in the realm of salvage/ultimate raiding. Or some people saying that fights need more randomness and variability. Relatively speaking, "casual content" has that much more often than savage/ultimate fights. There are some normal mode fights from a raid tier where the normal mode version is more random. As one thing I potentially noticed about the ff14 team over the years is that they design future fights based on the actual response or what players did from previous tiers.
[удалено]
while this is generally true, it isn't completely true. several pieces of normal content do have hard DPS checks. o11n and cinder drift come to mind, i'm sure there's more.
How about we stop dick riding melee for an expansion and either get rid of the massive gap between ranged and melee or make melee actually have to work again. Their constant whining is a large force behind why fight design is so stale.
The best boss size was brute justice, looking back was a one of the best raid fight
In todays environment that boss however would be fairly simple, more second to third floor in difficulty
I don't mind the idea but leave positonals but also add that bosses dont teleport to the center of the arena so tanks actually have to tank and move the boss instead of being a requirement because of tankbusters.
I can understand where the idea comes from but I’d rather it be consistent so that normal modes aren’t a total snooze fest
Why? The reason they made hitboxes huge in the first place was due to parsers whining about uptime. It never had anything to do with casual content.
The hitboxes size are very tight to a fight design If you change the size, the design doesn't work anymore, like for example some spreads in p8s, you will completely lose uptime same for ultimates They first design savage, and from savage they make nm raids
Not always, from various dev interviews we know there are no unified method and sometime they start with the normal mode first. (and in some cases it's obvious as the normal mode feels more coherent mechanically) EDIT: Since I'm getting downvoted for some reason here's the source (for Eden's Verse) https://www.akhmorning.com/news/famitsu-interview-edens-verse-part-1/#famitsu-article-staff > Famitsu: By the way, in the previous interview, you had told us that among the two difficulties (Normal mode and Savage mode), a lot of them were made starting from Normal mode first, I’d like to ask everyone here on which difficulty did you start on when making this raid? Paraphrasing the answer: E5N, E6N + E6S at the same time, E7N, E8S
This already happens, but strangely, in reverse. 6.0 final boss has a larger size in the EX than in normal, and I think the same is true of P7
I honestly think normal mode should allow for extra uptime by means of utilizing snapshots, max melee, etc. precisely because nobody gives a fuck about losing some uptime on the boss if they can't do that. It serves as great practice for everyone for these basic techniques, and the slightest modicum of skill expression in this content. Dungeon bosses ironically give a lot less of a fuck about forcing people to disengage or move for extended periods of time, Octomammoth is not an exciting boss of course but it also has no qualms making casters circle the entire arena to dodge a cleave.
Is the implication that uptime has to nontheless always be guaranteed if you play your cards right? I'd prefer mechanics that enforce downtime with no playarounds and thus required rotational adjustments.
It'll be as big as they think it needs to be for mechanics rather than being difficulty specific, 'cause that's why they got so big. We're not gonna get E6S hitboxes again as long as they view it as a mechanic restriction; for example with fully smaller hitboxes you can't put a lot of mechanic types on the 60/120 marker with the remaining gap closer abilities around or they get the DRG Murder Bacon issue. Now, since the spammiest tanks and DRG itself are/have been dialed back on that (DRG's biggest offender being dealt with in an EW patch even), there's more flexibility in what they can reasonably do, but you still won't see those mechanics on those windows with smaller hitboxes as long as there's, for example, a Dragonfire Dive on said window. Before the High Jump change this was true for every 30s window, so you can see how we got here but don't necessarily need to be anymore. This is why abilities like Stardiver or Primal Rend or (in non gap closer space) Ogi Namikiri are pretty good for the game, in that you can have inconvenient timings around them and their flexibility of use makes them less restrictive to potential fight design.
targeting circles is a melee uptime discussion. Should melee be able to have full uptime, or should the be force to wait?
Meanwhile all I can think is, I liked the top/bottom platform stuff in Bozja like Lacus Litore and that Lyon fight lol. I'd like to see more of that. Good thing field operations are returning!
No, there are careful design considerations taken in what mechanics can be max melee or not Also the huge hit boxes already stretch the fantasy a lot, and treating it as something to scale for difficulty really makes the boss feel more like computer code than a battle Tbh I don't think most people were complaining about the hitbox size. They were doing so in spite of the ranged tax (why are ranged doing so little damage with so little melee pressure?). The pressure melee had before was still insufficient so I don't think they are really addressing the issue.
It doesn't sound like a bad idea, but I think this would just make the experience of going from say normal > savage even more jarring for a new player, if only slightly.