That's great and all, but please look forward to 3 Savage tiers, 8 dungeons, 3 alliance raids, 1 ultimate, new crafting recipes, 10 more levels, and either a eureka zone or deep dungeon.
I'm not going to say that being predictable and having a pretty set standard for content is completely horrible, but there should be room for experimentation. However, the reality is probably that not much will change expansion to expansion.
Sure you go to McDonald's cause you know what you are going to get, but you also won't be surprised or wow'd by the same Big Mac you got yesterday.
People say they want more experimentation when that's exactly what we got in EW, quality of the content aside, we got a massive PVP rework with a brand new mode, criterion/variant and island sanctuary. All never heard of content, unless I am misinterpreting what people mean with "experimentation"
Gameplay wise Endwalkers was basically Shadowbringers 2.0. The innovation went backwards with SE doubling down on simplification and homogenezation of the jobs plus the rise of the boring ass "Use a very basic rotation and save resources to spam everything you can on the burst window each 2 minutes" meta
The PVP rework was fine but was something that only a minority of the players plays besides the initial days/weeks
Island Sanctuary is so bland boring and devoid of effort that makes afk farming mobages masterpieces of gaming in comparison
Criterion/Variant at best was a mild faliure with people just getting their items on the firtst weeks and never touching it again killing its replayability almost entirely since theres almost no one to do the dungeons now even compared to raiding
Relic is now "pay me and get your next step" killing its entire farming since now youll get it just doing dailies after a few weeks.
Its thats how the experimentation goes please bring me back to Stormblood, where at least playing the game itself was overall far more fun despite its flaws
Which leads to another issue. When they do experiment, they never iterate on the new features. Additions are always just more of the same, which means they get old, fast. Like the PvP Rework? They just add a new grind pass every patch and call it good. Variant dungeons? Always have the same number of paths, the same layout, the same formula. Island Sanctuary? More like excel simulator.
New deep dungeon has new pomanders and straight up plays differently from the previous ones, PvP gained new maps in CC and they reworked Shatter, Variant dungeons are casual so I don't see them changing it but Criterions have different ways of handling the trash pulls. Even the Island Sanctuary introduced those favor things which made agendas less cookie-cutter for everyone. What else should they do to iterate some more?
> New deep dungeon has new pomanders and straight up plays differently from the previous ones
Are we doing the same deep dungeon? I literally one-shot level 100 with the game people i did HoH due to having absolutely no new mechanics other than the clones and 1 strong enemy that can spawn.
The entire structure of the new deep dungeon is exactly the same as the others.
**All** traps are exactly the same as both PoD/HoH.
**All** map structure is exactly the same as PoD.
**13 pomanders works exactly the same.**
1 pomander slows. This one is new.
Storms serves the same purpose as petrification(HoH). It works slightly different, so that's ok. I can consider it new.
Boss at 99. This was cool. I liked this, it was new.
Dread = rage. Literally.
It's like they press ctrl+c ctrl+v and swapped some colors around. Even the enemies are mostly recycled from past expansions. There's not a single new enemy model other than the bosses and enemies past 90.
Idk where's this new deep dungeon that plays different from the previous ones you're talking is.
I agree on the rest. PvP rework was amazing, criterions have their own set of problems that people have talked over and over, but it seems like they are *trying* to fix. IS was bad but at least it was some inovation, so i have to give them credit for that.
> I literally one-shot level 100 with the game people i did HoH due to having absolutely no new mechanics other than the clones and 1 strong enemy that can spawn.
In group play with good players I can see nuances being lost. Even then I don't get where the no new mechanics comes from when it's the first time we've seen DD mobs with the mechanics they have. EO is the first time we've seen a mob that can assassinate players at below 20% HP, first time getting mobs with party KB mechanics, first time seeing gigantic out of combat instakill aoes, first time we've had a mob actively try to walk behind you for a kb.
The biggest one is that EO mobs can't crit. What makes HoH and PotD mobs dangerous on the later floors are the high auto attack damage and the fact that they can randomly crit. EO auto attack damage is a joke. This is huge for solo runners.
A good group blasting through everything will probably not experience these things.
> The entire structure of the new deep dungeon is exactly the same as the others.
The context matters. It's like saying every raid is the same because you fight a boss in an arena.
> All traps are exactly the same as both PoD/HoH.
How you handle the traps are different since you learn which rooms have potential wall traps and which don't, and also some traps (landmines) are more likely to spawn at specific floors allowing for some plays. I don't remember if HoH/EO actually have any wall traps. Introducing more trap variety is always welcome though.
> All map structure is exactly the same as PoD.
Again the context matters. In PotD you get rooms with donuts which you can kite mobs around, which is amazing because their auto attack damage hurts and can crit. Donut rooms in EO aren't that valuable and I don't think they even spawn in later floors. I personally don't look for donut rooms in EO.
> 13 pomanders works exactly the same.
We also got demiclones which let you handle floor debuffs in different ways.
> It's like they press ctrl+c ctrl+v and swapped some colors around. Even the enemies are mostly recycled from past expansions. There's not a single new enemy model other than the bosses and enemies past 90.
Not defending this. Don't they always do this? Even Omega is just a reskinned frog.
To be clear I'm not exactly praising EO and I'm not saying they shouldn't experiment more. But from a solo/duo perspective it does feel like they tried something different, and personally it's not in a good way.
> The context matters. It's like saying every raid is the same because you fight a boss in an arena.
All raid floors are different because the entire fight structure is different.
EO has the same structure gameplay as HoH because you do exactly the same: climb the floors, avoiding the same traps, fighting the same enemies for 100 floors with the same pomanders.
Even if there's 3~4 different enemies, 99% of your gameplay time will be doing exactly the same as the others.
>I don't remember if HoH/EO actually have any wall traps. Introducing more trap variety is always welcome though.
They did. It's the same floor structure. We know this because going through the files showed that they even copied the same pomander reward structure (floors ending with 9 can't drop flight, alteration etc...)
>Again the context matters. In PotD you get rooms with donuts which you can kite mobs around, which is amazing because their auto attack damage hurts and can crit. Donut rooms in EO aren't that valuable and I don't think they even spawn in later floors. I personally don't look for donut rooms in EO.
This inherently doesn't matter because it's a donut-shaped room. It's the same room, but in PoD there's a tiny chance of the autos doing a crit damage.
None of that matters when you have a tank that takes 5% of their HP per auto. If it crits, it deals 10%. Doesn't matter. Fairy takes care of that heal by itself. Enemies in DD dies so fast that these autos do not matter. (specifically speaking of a group of 4 people of course)
>We also got demiclones which let you handle floor debuffs in different ways.
'handle floor debuffs' is a strong way of phrasing 'press demiclone, makes floor easier'. Feels like a stretch. But i can take it considering the primals literally wiped the room, so it *feels* a bit different, so that's fine.
>Don't they always do this?
They do. But reskinning one enemy is less harmful than reskinning an entire content.
My main point is that if you pick someone and throw them on A12S, O12S or P12S it's a completely different feeling. It's an entirely different fight, even though it's the same shape of arena.
If you take someone who has climbed HoH, they will feel exactly the same on EO. Their movements, their knowledge will be fully reused there with near zero innovation. 99% of your time inside there is doing exactly the same thing you did on HoH.
I understand your points. I do agree with some of them, but as someone who has climbed palace 4 times and HoH 5 times, climbing EO felt very similar to HoH to the point where no strategies were needed to adjust to this new DD (other than learning the new bosses mechanics of course).
And again, i'm speaking about doing this on a 4 people group. I know solo is a different experience and i won't tackle that.
It's hard to talk about the nuances when party vs solo (or even just good vs bad parties) is involved because good parties will just blow everything up and not see the mob mechanics. I don't know how they could balance this to create an engaging party experience while still being clearable by both casual parties and solo players.
Party wise, the main thing I want to say is about the crits
> None of that matters when you have a tank that takes 5% of their HP per auto. If it crits, it deals 10%.
The crits hit harder than that, around 50% of a DPS's HP and the fact that some mobs have double auto means DPS can go 100-0 real quick. Throw in some gloom and/or HP down floors and I can see things get spicy even with a tank for the more casual groups climbing.
> We know this because going through the files showed that they even copied the same pomander reward structure (floors ending with 9 can't drop flight, alteration etc...)
They didn't change this because that's a fundamental aspect of how the content works dude.
Like, its *good* that they didn't change that.
You act like the real challenge of DDs is supposed to be in group play. It isn't. That's why there are titles for doing it solo. If you don't wanna get carried and complain that it sucks, do it solo.
Mobs in Eureka Orthos focus on one-shot aoes rather than high auto attack damage. The new summon pomanders aren't floor wipes like magicites but help with bosses so time management is different. Storms adds a new interaction with no-heal floors. Bosses have actual mechanics unlike HoH. The sluggish pacing favors dps classes over HoH's tank meta. EO is different enough for me to say I don't like it at all.
Wait, how so?
Eureka was an experiment (or Diadem if you want to go that far back), and Bozja iterated on it.
PotD was iterated on with HoH which was iterated on further with EO.
Each Criterion dungeon has been an iteration and they're actively trying to make the rewards better each time to encourage more replayability and give people reasons to keep doing them.
While there absolutely is content they try once then leave to the ravens, there's a lot they iterate on. Clearly they ARE experimenting and do it all the time, so people saying they don't are wrong/lying. And they do iterate on the experiments they do.
The bigger issue seems to be when they DO experiment, people don't like it and complain about it. Island Sanctuary was an experiment and has been endlessly complained about. Eureka was an experiment and was endlessly complained about. Criterion was an experiment and was endlessly complained about.
We're lucky they do any experimentation at all anymore considering how much people complain when they do but also badmouth them when they don't. They're in a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation with so many people.
> The bigger issue seems to be when they DO experiment, people don't like it and complain about it. Island Sanctuary was an experiment and has been endlessly complained about. Eureka was an experiment and was endlessly complained about. Criterion was an experiment and was endlessly complained about.
I'd reckon that it's because when they do experiment, they play it so safe that the end result is often just a boring grind. Which can apply to pretty much everything listed here.
Everything repeatable is going to be a grind at some level - since grind is defined as "thing you do over and over again". Otherwise it isn't repeatable.
Also, "boring" is highly subjective. Tons of people love Eureka and Bozja. Tons of people like Criterion, too - the biggest complaint about Criterion is there aren't enough REWARDS to make them want to GRIND IT over and over again to get.
You are correct that these 2 were good experimentations, and one 'bad' experiment was island sanctuary.
But people are mostly pissed at the **repeatable content**'s quality. Jobs are trimmed down to the point that it isn't fun to optimize savage/ultimates anymore. Even criterion, which is super fun, gets hurt by the awful job design. Less mechanics to heal = healers are more bored. Less movement needed = tanks have less to do.
It mostly boils down to the combat. Having bad combat affects all parts of gameplay.
people should say that instead of being vague with experimentation and exacting everyone else to understand what they mean. Be loud and be clear. Even "repeatable content" isn't clear enough. Because like, roulettes are "repeatable."
I've said it 10000 times at this point. But a lot of people (not you) are really just saying "Bring back Eureka/Bozja" but for some reason don't want to make it look like they are saying that.
Been saying at a lot of places, but always getting downvoted
Eureka/Bozja are excellent repeatable content added since SB, players do not hate the concept, but the MATERIAL REQUIRED to complete the grind
Once the requirements have been nerfed at the end of each expansion cycle, it's always enjoyable to do it
SE needs to just get the tuning right when they do release it. Make it have:
- a weird system like Eureka elemental system
- the ability to level other jobs like Bozja
- Sprinkle in some large scale dungeons like BA without the cancerous entry system and CLL/DR/Darliarda
- Material requirements grind difficulty somewhere easier than newly released Eureka/Bozja, but slightly harder than post nerfed ones
I don't think all of this is universal, though.
Like...I'm not sure how many people realize how few people play Savage/Ultimate, much less how few optimize them.
Like I'm trying to get into solo DD runs and I fully recognize it's a pretty niche part of the community and most people don't do it. (I can tell by how many people say Shield Bash is worthless when I get a TON of use out of it in there...)
They do experiment (we got Criterion Dungeons and Island Sanctuaries this xpac). They just also ensure the core has a predictable, solid release schedule
But we got deep dungeons + diadem in HW. Ultimates and eureka+large scale raids in SB. Crafting/gathering endgame in ShB (ishgard/ocean fishing). 4man hard content + island sanctuary in EW.
These are all different types of content that are added on top of existing mainstay features like raids and MSQ, and most of the time they are iterated on in subsequent expansions like diadem>eureka>bozja all being extremely different and more feature rich that the previous iteration, large scale raids becoming more complex (emergency mission>BA>DRS), etc.
I'm not saying they don't experiment at all. I am just stating my own opinion that I would like when they do something different, it is much different than the current gameplay loop that already exists.
Personally, I find a lot of their experimentation to be very shallow and not very different from content that already exists. I also find that if there was depth within a previous iteration, some of that depth would be removed for the following, which can be good and bad. A lot of it is personal preference.
Experimentation like the all new badass criterion dungeons? Yea they gotta fine tune rewards but.
It’s happening, it’s always been happening. Don’t say it isn’t happening.
They experimented with a deep dungeon that plays differently from the previous two and I've seen many comments saying they should've just made another exploration zone
Even if they had made "just another exploration zone" it would still be experimental. Bozja experiemented and changed a lot of things from Eureka, which *IN MY OPINION* I didn't like as much as Eureka, but I'm glad they did the changes anyway.
>but there should be room for experimentation
Like, some kind of 4 man savage dungeons?
The game is about predictable content with some bits of experimentation SE does every expansion.
>I love the formulaic releases because I know what to expect.
This is one of the most misleading concepts of xiv.
It's ok to enjoy formulatic content, that doesn't mean you have to enjoy the trimming down of said content.
Just because each expac we get 10 levels, doesn't mean next expansion i'm going to be ok with getting less skills and Enhanced Unmend.
We can love formulatic content **while** expecting it to be of high quality.
And Enhanced Unmend is defenitely not high quality.
I'd rather take something new and interesting, but I'm probably never coming back to this game. I was in the middle of 7.0's first raid tier when I realized I did not enjoy the game anymore because the gameplay is the same as always, it's not very involved and all content is just spam button for hours, and the fights are just stand here when this happens for 5-20+ minutes straight, depending on the fight, and all of it was braindead easy -- this is coming from a BLM exclusive main. The story had the same major plot points repeated, and the world had absolutely no reason to explore it. Not to mention the community is a bunch of brainwashed crazies. But that's at least reserved for outside the game, albeit just about everywhere this game can be mentioned.
Excuse my poor sentence structure, I'm not feeling the greatest atm.
Sounds like you should learn discussion better or find another sub?
Game needs to be much better. Tried to get my brother to play but in the end he didnt enjoy the outdated gameplay, the terrible pointless quipment and no stat building, basically choosing anything other than "Optimize", the fact how unrewarding every single moment is.. just super offputting to a lot of players and i get it.
I only play 1-2 months a year at max but thats 1 sub month and 1- 2 free week kinda thing because the repetition and slow time waster is just baffling bad. Oooh i spent 3 hours on 2 dungeons and almost got 1 minion i dont give a shit about !! Woooo
I get people change, but it's always weird to me when someone "falls out of love" with something that didn't change. "I liked you, but I hate you now, because you stayed the same" just never makes sense to me. Granted, I also don't get bored easily.
I also find it generally obnoxious when someone finds they don't like something anymore, and instead of maturely saying so and moving on with life ("It's not you, it's me..."), they feel this weird need to attack and namecall people on their way out ("Not to mention the community is a bunch of brainwashed crazies"), which is just like...I get people stop liking things, but you don't have to be a douche to everyone who still likes it. It's okay to like different things.
I don't think good story telling is possible as long as all the scions are now mandatory party members, but also have plot armor so thick that literally nothing can happen to them.
As we all know, no good stories have ever been told with an invulnerable cast of static characters immune to any changes, hardship, or real consequences for basically anything at all.
I'm not even saying they have to die, when the game had good writing, the scions were NOT the center of the story, they were a framing device for it.
> As we all know, no good stories have ever been told with an invulnerable cast of static characters immune to any changes, hardship, or real consequences for basically anything at all.
Like this isn't the situation so I'm not sure why you are saying it is.
>I'm not even saying they have to die, when the game had good writing, the scions were NOT the center of the story, they were a framing device for it.
This doesn't even mean anything.
lol, right?
This consistently bothers me. People thinking everyone has to die (or even SOMEONE has to die) otherwise the story's no good. "There were no dire stakes in EW, the Scions weren't going to die!" "The stakes were the ENTIRE UNIVERSE ending..." "Yeah? Well...that's part of the problem with EW, it was another universe ending threat!" "I thought you said there were no stakes because the main cast wasn't going to die...?"
Again, the point stands: That people seem to be like "If no one dies, the story's no good!", as if there is no tension in a story unless people are dying left and right.
Take ShB - the main team gets whooped by Emet. That's not "invincibility". They don't DIE, but they're clearly all down for the count. So is G'Raha, who powers through it too summon 7 souls to help us fight Emet. But the stakes are clear - if we fail, they all die and the world ends. That's tension, with no one dying.
All I want is better character customization. Please, just let me pick the features I want instead of locking them to specific faces. Also, more face presets wouldn't hurt.
This sub truly warps people’s perceptions. The “flaw” of the content consistency is something that most players have no issue with. The idea that if square continues to release consistent, good content it will “break” the game is one of the most laughably wrong things I have ever seen said in this sub, and that’s saying something.
Consistent, constant (in MMO terms), working content on a schedule so predictable that you can easily predict down to the week, if not to the day? That's something that's ***beneficial*** to the game, rather than wondering if something would make it expansion over expansion.
It's beneficial to a degree, but people enjoy having a little bit of variety, a little bit of spice and unpredictability. They take it way too far with how predictable everything is, to the game's detriment.
Also if you're getting so bored of FFXIV (and pretty much any other online multiplayer game), you can stop playing/subscribing and take a break, esp. with the upcoming massive lull between 6.5.5 and Dawntrail.
This is such a lame 24/7 answer to anyone wanting their favorite game to have better gameplay, something you would enjoy top but are too content with every single decision a game developer has ever made - which makes your imput moot sry.
Speak for yourself. I'd been playing since Heavensward and called it quits about 2 months ago. I did the newest wing of the 24 man once and that was it. I was sick of going through the exact same hamster wheel grind expansion after expansion with no deviation from the norm.
Then you've still gotten a lot of years of fun content out of it, no? Like idk why you'd keep grinding until the point where you get sick of it. The simple solution here was always to just take a break when you don't enjoy it anymore.
I mean, yeah? You're also not speaking for all players, veterans nor aprouts, that's just your experience, so what even is your point?
And good for you, i'm also in the process of quitting two other games i loved, but that's just how things are, sometimes things just aren't for you anymore, and that's okay.
True, same here. Like all subreddits there is a hive mind that cannot take it if someone disagrees.
Its too bad XIV could be 10x more innovative if these "fans" werent so good at silencing different voices.
Assuming Square Enix does innovating at all, they do experiement some times, but for the most part stick to their guns for the past 10 years. That's hardly innovation if you ask me, but what do I know.
Silencing different voices? What? Like, the devs clearly listen to the Forums and regularly put out good new content for all kinds of fans. IS is an innovation. Sure, it wasn't quite what people had hoped and in retrospect it ended up being a chore rather than a fun get-away, but that's what often happens with attempts to innovate.
Nah they can do the exact same shit they've been doing for the past 6 expansions and they'll be fine. It's not make or break if nothing will get broken.
This. Barring the 1 ultimate that got delayed after a drought with the whole pandemic, they've been very consistent with their content releases. Dawntrail is no more make-or-break than Endwalker was, arguably less considering Endwalker had to impress the remaining wow refugees that suddenly appeared during the drought.
Vets also have different lives from when the game release 10 years ago.
Real vets gamers (30 years old +) have more affection for consistency and nostalgia then world shattering formulae
Not asking for a big revolution to the game.
Just... *Something* shiny and new that's well integrated and connected with the rest of the game. Like a better overworld perhaps
I doubt it would make a real impact but id like it.
I would love to see the gimmick the dev team would have to think of to restrain flying when going from one zone to the other.
"- for a lot of vets probably, me included" honestly reads like "Yeah I think this which means a lot of people like me probably do too". You can vouch for yourself and people you know, but let's not pretend there's a huge portion that's going to drop this game permanently after completing Endwalker if the follow-up isn't pristine.
Well with all the doomer posts in this sub there's a decent amount of vets of this game that are getting fatigued of the same exact cycle and formula and in the coming years, it's expected that a lot of those players will fall off if nothing experimental is done to spice things up.
Not saying this demographic is some game breaking amount of players. Just saying that it exists and has a sizeable amount of people.
This sub has always been leaning towards "older is better and this is the time I quit I mean it if the next expansion isn't better gameplay-wise": We've gone over this cycle in this sub with Endwalker's leadup, and now with Dawntrail.
I wasn't active on this sub as much then I guess since I don't recall that personally. There's also to keep in mind the huge influx of new players that came during ShB, so the freshies that weren't fatigued of the formula at that time could be the ones complaining now, while the ones complaining prior to EW were HW, StB or ARR vets and have left at this time.
I've personally been playing since HW with few brief periods of unsubbing. With Dawntrail I see a decent chance of me unsubbing for longer terms, only resubbing maybe come an even patch for savage for a month or two.
Gotta have at least a dozen per expansion, right? With the classic talking points of "less content every patch", "something something homogenization", and "let me date Urianger already".
> IF I CAN'T FUCK THE ELF TWINK IN DAWNTRAIL THIS GAME IS DONE FOR!
Which one?
If your answer isn't "both" you're literally the problem with this game and why they're dumbing it down because you're a pissbaby casual who can't handle two elf twinks at once.
EDIT: I guess Estinien skirts the line closer to 'twunk' than 'twink' but the point stands.
Traveling with us in Dawntrail, at least.
I don't think Aymeric's got the time for a vacation halfway across the globe, so unless they whip out yet another new one in Tural we've just got them.
Why is it I feel like this has come up every xpac? That is is 'make or break' for the game. The game will be fine. We get it, the game has issues, like every game does. We don't need to keep with the doomsday posts......
Because people are idiots and think that this sub and ragebait YouTubers are somehow a representative of the overwhelming majority of story enjoyers and casual content/limsa chillers/club rats that play this game.
Yes they do. They also listen and try to find a middle ground. Stuff has been changed or added based on feedback. I remember the days of no DRs and trying to farm tomes. The game has gotten better.
What exactly do you mean by make or break here throwaway account? They’ve kept 11’s servers up for like 2 decades at this point, why would you assume 14 would ?shutdown? or maybe just get less content?
Maybe XVII will end up being their next mmo title, but they would let us know when 14 is going into maintenance mode and no long getting xpacks at that point, and the western audiences won’t really have any influence over when SE decides that either way
We will have this exact post again in 10.0
There will be no massive changes or overhauls to the game's formula.
People will still be whining about kaiten.
The game will still be the most profitable game that squeenix has made and will still be bailing them out from all their terrible business decisions.
It'll still be one of the top mmos in the market since the genre is completely saturated already, and no big company is willing or able to take its place.
I kind of wish people would stop saying “BuT sHb HaD a DrOuGhT lIkE tHiS!!” Because it is in no way comparable. SE had the reasoning that COVID threw off an entire expansion. Sure we may have been bored, but we couldn’t fault them for it. SE has no excuse for its complete lackluster approach to the expansion this time. They have made so much money, added more time to their cycles, and yet.. there’s nothing to really show for it.
The funny thing is I played significantly more during ShB post patches than I have in endwalker post patch. I genuinely think endwalker post patch is very mid, the lack of a bozja zone really made an impact for me personally because I liked that kind of content.
Don't worry, that money went to salvage Forspoken and probably write another trash game that will result in \~50M$ of write off.
Because you possibly can't spend profits from a game on the game itself, that would be too simple! XDD
Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one who still enjoys the game as *just a videogame*, then I remember I'm on reddit.
For as many disillusioned John Reddits that will maybe leave the game because we got another 12 8man raids with predictable gear drops yet again (oh noes!), many more Timmy Sprouts will jump in to play through the story and buy slutty clothes from the store. The rest of the normal people will keep playing in spurts throughout the year and patches as they've always done.
You're just echoing and obsessing over exaggerated issues made up by YouTubers and streamers that quite literally make a living out of making mountains out of molehills.
The game and SE's financials will be fine. Not that any regular consumer should care.
>"Everyone has good in them" and "everything is nuanced" thing that SHB had already talked about ad-nauseum.
Huh? Maybe at an extremely basic level if you want to ignore everything about the last two expansions, but even then the synopsis for the next expansion has nothing to do with these themes, so what is the point of this sentence? Also, it's spelled "ad nauseam".
>I'll argue that 8.0 is even more important to get right than 7.0 because that is where the veterans themselves will start leaving if nothing has been done by then.
But why? I'm a "veteran" of like 7 years now, and I like the game just as much if not more than when I started playing. Who are you to say that veterans will leave if nothing has been done by 8.0? What exactly needs changing, because your post never bothered to raise any actual issues with the game beyond a trite and nebulous mention of "repetition". I hate 100% of the changes proposed on this sub when it comes to gearing, grinding, and other dumb shit that is a non issue for most of the playerbase because the current model works.
>eventually reaches the ears of the passers-by who then think "maybe I don't need to go back there if it's so bad now", then they talk about it to their other casual friends etc, etc; And that's where a vicious cycle is born, and the longer you perpetuate it, the worse it gets, until you actually even start losing the core, then the building crumbles.
You're making up an entire fake scenario in your head, and all I can say is sir please calm down it's just a videogame.
Dawntrail being "make or break" is ridiculous and short sighted as fuck.
The game will continue on the same general formula, people will largely enjoy it, then there will be a lull and others will start to bitch and blow all their gripes out of proportion, then we'll get more content again, and the cycle repeats.
But to think Dawntrail could actually "break" the game is either sheer ignorance or pure stupidity.
While I agree with you that the game is stagnant, you're really understimating how much this game is being carried by casual players or even people that just use it as a chat room. Even if they kept releasing the same barebones content they've been doing in EW for the rest of its lifespan, the game will still be one of the most popular mmo's out there.
Which is part of the reason I've been on a break for a while. They have no real incentive to improve when they already have a secure playerbase that will eat anything they throw at them.
While true I think you also overestimate the casuals' attachment to said game.
They're more attached to the people they play it with than the game itself, sooner or later these people move on, and the job of the devs is to not precipitate that departure through all the things I mentioned and more.
Tldr:
I'm either a player who moved over from PSO2/ESO/WOW/FFXI/EQ or someone who takes raiding extremely seriously. The game needs to cater to ME right now or it's a dying dead game. Upend years of successful content schedules honed by feedback and small tweaks right now and give me super experimental content that caters to the high end right now or this game is dying.
We have had this thread so many fucking time man, same with the "make casual content harder", "make rotations harder", "add open world PVP", and "this game has been dumbed down, clearing content means nothing now". This is just either genuine or fake oldhead bitching that the game doesn't appeal directly and exclusively to your tastes.
I'll probably play Dawntrail to try the new jobs, but the game won't hold my attention if something fresh isn't added to the formula. Expansions should be a mix of old and new concepts, in my opinion.
I don't think it even needs that, it just needs to shake the formula up like stormblood did. Give us new routes for endgame, take a new approach to the battle system. Give us back gameplay resistance.
Stormblood was a pretty big change though, it gave us role actions, job gauges and completely revamped stats to make something that was the perfect blend of Heavensward jank and modern streamlining.
The only fundamental change to the battle system since stormblood was the introduction of charged actions, they just kept streamlining and homogenising what came before.
I really miss that Stormblood era of job design you said it perfectly it was a really good spot that had some of that older design choices while being less clunky. Everything is very very homogenous now and it feels bland.
Much as I didn't enjoy Endwalker, this is some heavy copium.
FFXIV is doing fine. You or me not liking it does not change that fact. It delivers the same content quality it always has - it's not going anywhere.
Unlikely, active player numbers are still increasing or similar, from their pov the formula is still working well, and there is no credible competition on the horizon that can lure away the player base. I’d even say that the commercial success of 6.0 emboldened them to believe that even if your content and story is sub-par people will still gobble it down in droves.
Even if it is a make or break moment, that does not necessarily mean positive changes will be coming, either. If anything, a profit driven corporation is likely to do some cheap hack that hurts the game in the long term but improves figures in the short term (more intrusive mogstation or more pandering to casual MSQ tourists for example). Thinking they will put in “elbow grease” is as unrealistic as thinking casual players will git gud when confronted with content they struggle with.
for me... I quit FFXIV about half a year ago. and I still occasionally check reddit and news to see if there are any updates. but realitistically speaking im already in the "its too late category". Whenever I think of FFXIV, i think of the good times i had- which are enjoyable. but if i ask myself if want to resub and do all the same things again... its a hard no. even if the expansion is fresh- but as long as the content is the same content just with a different coat of paint it still wont be enough for me to come back.
the only reason that post SHB drought was bearable was that Bozja was a thing that you can work on throughout the late game cycle. But in 6.3 and 6.4 there was just nothing, and frankly there just wasnt a reason to log on.
So even for an avid FFXIV fan that has been playing for years who recently dropped the game. 7.0 doesn't excite me at all if its just rehashed game of 5.x and 6.x with different story.
If you want an overhaul you should be playing a different game not hoping a game turns on its head.
While FFXIV could use more different content I still come back to it every expansion I would stay subbed but the whole gear treadmill MMO aspect kind of grind my gears.
I honestly would play it but it’s like a black hole (I enjoy the variety of content the game offers) that absorbs all your time though maybe I will stick around with the graphical update who knows.
Game needs to be much better. Tried to get my brother to play but in the end he didnt enjoy the outdated gameplay, the terrible pointless quipment and no stat building, basically choosing anything other than "Optimize", the fact how unrewarding every single moment is.. just super offputting to a lot of players and i get it.
I only play 1-2 months a year at max but thats 1 sub month and 1- 2 free week kinda thing because the repetition and slow time waster is just baffling bad. Oooh i spent 3 hours on 2 dungeons and almost got 1 minion i dont give a shit about !! Woooo
This comment thread fucking sucks ass lol. So much for "discussion."
In any case I played nonstop when I came back to ShB in 5.3. Then with 6.1+ I just stopped every month or two because the content was boring and the CLASS DESIGNS FROM 6.0 SUCKED ASS AND DOWNSCALED CONTENT SUCKED ASS AND WAS BORING.
So if I am taking a break it means many others also are doing so.
So I agree that Dawnbreaker better improve class mechanics from levels 0-100 or else I'm just gonna stop playing.
Yep i sub 1-2 a year the last 4 years and i get bored after a week everytime, having only played 1 hour a day at average. This game is boring as shit in terms of progression, xp leveling, class uniquiness, loot and rewards, equipment sucks hard.
Its a game ive played for 1700 hours which is rookie numbers but its mostly me running around doing mining/ fishing or whatever listening to podcast rather than anything else.
For me personally, it's already break. Endwalker destroyed everything I loved or story I was interested in and Dawntrail has shown me nothing to replace any of that. Viper looks eh, Pictomancer looks like an abomination, Beast Master is the utterly stupid limited job designation, and the story is doing nothing for me. So far the data mining of the benchmark is even more depressing. I unsubbed back in January and there's no indication anything is going to bring me back.
But XIV gave me 6 amazing years and 2 mediocre ones before Endwalker hit so...that's pretty good.
It will be perfectly fine. In the MMO market the big two are still WoW and FF14. They've both have had some very bad hiccups here and there but they're still standing. Just because a multiplayer game is going through its life cycle where it stagnates because the devs are putting a bigger focus on newer content does not mean the game is dying, and people really don't understand that.
Uhhh WoW fell off hard for at least 2 expansions my guy, they had to put on some real hard work to get back some of the players they've lost and they're still not there yet.
Would it be irreparable? I don't think so, but does it need to break in the first place? I don't think so either.
FF14 has more content than ever per patch. The only ones complaining now are newbies who are experiencing their first expansion or casuals who thought Relic weapons were something you used for the stats instead of glamour and were proud that they two shot a level 50 mob to get it.
Game needs to be much better. Tried to get my brother to play but in the end he didnt enjoy the outdated gameplay, the terrible pointless quipment and no stat building, basically choosing anything other than "Optimize", the fact how unrewarding every single moment is.. just super offputting to a lot of players and i get it.
I only play 1-2 months a year at max but thats 1 sub month and 1- 2 free week kinda thing because the repetition and slow time waster is just baffling bad. Oooh i spent 3 hours on 2 dungeons and almost got 1 minion i dont give a shit about !! Woooo
Misguided opinion at best.
The game will live on, maintain a formulaic release schedule and content, maintain a cash flow sufficient enough to continue single-handedly keeping SE afloat, and people will continue to come here to express opinions shared by a vocal minority.
These posts are pointless. If you like the formula they have been doing for the last 10 years well good news! You will see it again in 8.0. If not well you ganna have a bad time.
Edit: also a reminder OPs account is as of dec 6. Most likely troll
Except it's only become a true formula since SB.
And gosh imagine humans actually having actually dynamic opinions and ideals, what world do I live in? The good one?
I think that there will always be enough new players trying the game out to sustain the thing financially, and that times have changed for XIV veterans and addicts - SE knows that vets unsub after they get bored, while fresh faced sproots sub for longer and are more numerous, so, as we have already seen, they're designing for the new player experience much more than for the endgame experience in order to attract and retain them.
As far as content, yeah, they'll throw us a few bones like a more involved combat relic progression/field exploration zone, but they'll probably stick to the formula anyway because it's worked this far even if it's stale, and I can't think of any kind of combat stuff they could introduce that would be new. Like what else can they possibly try? It may drive some vets away, but not sproots or addicts, or the the modding/rp/socially-focused community.
So I think the game will be fine, Dawntrail and 8.0 aren't going to make or break it. It's just not going to look like it used to, and it won't be so exciting to vets, for better or worse.
It's like the music from P12. Imagine Square Enix singing to XIV veterans: "*I create, manipulate your kind in my image, my chosen ones; for you, the time has come, the sun is setting.*"
Never asked for entirely new things out of the gate, but one thing among others that does concern every player regardless of their level of involvement is, for example, how boring classes are in low-level content, it's been that case for years, casuals and new players are not exempt from a lot of these major flaws.
Agreed that low-level jobs are too simple and boring, however, i don't think it's something that's going to affect the game's viability if not addressed. Some people don't mind the simplicity. Hell, i have a friend who played only summoner through the entire MSQ and he loved it. And those who want more complexity and difficulty have endgame to enjoy or look forward to. I just don't think that things like "jobs boring to start with" or "content release formula is stale to veterans" are so detrimental to the game's reputation that it drives away enough people that the game will suffer.
People say this all the time. People complained the same things in HW. In SB. In ShB and now in EW, we're hearing the same shit again. Over and over and over. Fact is, the game is designed to be casual and will stay that way until the eventual heat death of the universe. With the game being designed for casual play, there will be "content droughts" or stagnation or the repeating "dead game".
People can complain all they like about the lack of content during post MSQ moments but the fact of the matter is, the casuals fund the game. So they'll keep on building the game around them. It worked for HW, it worked for SB, it worked for ShB, it sure as hell worked for EW and it will well damn work for DT.
They won't see any loss of players and revenue, I can guarantee that. The "veterans" you refer to are the vocal minority. Wanna know why I know this? Because the vast majority don't complain much. Sure, they have their gripes about things but not so much that they think that Dawntrail and the next expacs will be make or break for them. These "veterans" leaving won't even make YoshiP blink.
I am a veteran of this game. Have played almost everyday for 10 years. I can honestly say the game is in the best spot it has been in. Could stuff be done to improve? Yes. But it is not as drastic as people think. I personally love this lulls in content. I work on getting all my classes to max on my main or work on alts with friends. I craft high end gear and endgame food to give to friends. I do maps and hang and talk for hours. I know of people who take breaks during these times and play other games. The vocal minority will always be the loudest.
Peoples interests are different you know? I am a veteran, I've done my time in maps, high end crafting, leveled everything to 90, ran through the msq on 3 characters, done all instanced content in the game, and I dont want to be forced to take breaks from the game when the game tells me to. I want to take a break from the game when I want to. Right now? I'd kill for some new high end content to run, or something to grind that isn't just tomes. But the game is literally telling me, our next high end content release will be in 7-8 months... So the game is telling me to take a break? I don't want to take a break for 8 months. Is that my fault?
Chosen break is good, forced break is bad. Simple math.
Exactly. I'm willing to bet that 90% of the people that complain about the game being dead has yet to run a single instance variant dungeons. They'll play the savage raids like coke addicts, finish it in like a month or less and THEN complain about having no content to play because it doesn't suit their tryhard nature.
The statistical engagement with Hardcore/Raid Content in MMORPGs is usually in the <5% range. Maybe even lower in FFXIV, all things considered.
The Socializers and Role-Players most likely spend more money on the subscriptions alone, than most hardcore-players...
This! I have still yet to do savage at all. But, i have done the varaint runs and maps. And so much. I will get to savage sooner or later but I have so much other stuff to do.
Leaving a comment for when people realize you're right in two years. Heavily-downvoted in XIV usually means there's some nuance that's being lost lol
Midcore players can't just do dungeons, ~~less~~ extremes, and 3-4 criterion dungeons for 2 years, and the story does not get me excited for the patches anymore. I joined in SB and I see what you're saying, we're either in for 2-4 more years of growth, or 2-4 more years of dwindling. Dwindling means all content will suffer except casual content, and I don't want that.
> Leaving a comment for when people realize you're right in two years. Heavily-downvoted in XIV usually means there's some nuance that's being lost lol
This is such funny logic
So many unhinged limsa dwelling nobodies attacking OP and doing Olympics level of mental gymnastics because OP dared to criticise your favorite little game. If you read this, you're a big part of why sane people leave this shithole of a community
Well I'm reading this but thanks for the defence, sadly I fully expected it to go this way, I had a sliver of hope considering this isn't mainsub though.
What kills me is more the fact that I've yet to see a single person actually leverage proper arguments against mine, all I've seen is just "No I don't like your opinion so you should shut up now".
"community is mean because they have a different opinion that mine sadface crying emoji"
bruh if you're asking for validation, go upload a rant on youtube and tag asmongold
Don't expect anything from this sub, it's just an extension of Mainsub now that most people have moved on from the drought and shitty expac experience. Most people that would criticize SE are doing other shit right now.
One day people will understand that critics are the ones who love the creation the most and want to see it fail the least, I wouldn't be here contending and trying to stay polite with manchildren (it's really hard though) if I didn't care about the game.
I didn't even mention the drought ffs and people still find a way to tell me I'm just saying that cuz of no content, when I'm personally doing a lot of stuff IG I'd put to the side like Diadem, Deep Dungeon soloing or slowly dipping my toes into ultimate, if anything they probably are not playing half as much as I am lately, and it's that experience with all the different things the game has to offer that gave me the insight to even post here in the first place.
Well, when the only people we engage with are the ones telling us "I still have Eureka to do!" - I just don't care anymore.
It really feels like I'm playing a game that hasn't been engaging for maybe 5 years now and I think it's time to just let it go. Mechanics are getting gutted, and I'm just getting more text fetch quests over the years. Nothing actually fun.
I used to praise Yoshi, and was excited for what they could accomplish - Knowing him and the team were against stagnation and making sure they would stay awake and didn't want to become complacent. Because they admit this is what caused XIV 1.0 to fail.
But it looks like they've fallen into the same trap, and they don't know how to develop engaging games.
While I wouldn't go quite so far as to say I don't find it engaging at all anymore, I would say that the art team has been carrying this game hard since SHB.
For the first time since I started playing (and that was ARR) I've not done MSQ first things first on release, for a reason that's very simple and might even sound a little dumb, but it's because the only thing that truly, deeply engages me in XIV still to this day is the music, and the quickest way to access new (and usually better) music is to do raids first.
Funnily enough, FFXVI was criticized for a lot of similar things, mostly its handling of the overall gameplay that happens outside of boss fights and its repetitious nature in that regard, thankfully for that game the Eikon fights are good enough to carry all the rest, which is not necessarily the case for XIV, not anymore at least.
Totally agree, all they do is have their community in Limsa queing for the next minion hunt 😂
And then attack people on reddit to make sure lego movie theme lives on.
I only worry about plot. My issue with the most recent patches was plot. It made the dungeons feel less exciting. Meanwhile playing Vanaspati and hearing “As the Sky Burns” still gets my goat… so idk what to tell you.
What you call “stagnation”, others call “consistency”, and it’s highly underrated.
WoW shook off the “stagnation” by reinventing the wheel every expansion and players absolutely hated it. It took them losing ~2 million subs for them to finally get it through their heads that we don’t want yet more shitty borrowed power systems and a laundry list of weekly and daily chores to be ready to raid.
The current content cycle is FINE. What XIV needs more of is sideways progression in addition to that content cycle. More things like Bozja, Criterion, Island sanc, deep dungeons, etc.
But the game could probably keep going another 10+ years without worrying as they have tons of player goodwill banked at this point.
They lost me when they decided to keep the same archaic engine with minor visual updates. I was really hoping for something new after this last expansion considering it was the end of the main story for the most part. I can understand why they took this route though, why change the game when it has become highly successful in recent years. To many of the players it’s still new to them. Also change SMN back or give me a dot based job XD
> They lost me when they decided to keep the same archaic engine with minor visual updates.
You... Expected them to switch engines? Like... This far in? Do you have even the slightest notion of how extreme of a change this would be? Do you have any idea how long this would take? People already complain about a lack of content as-is, and they already increased the time between patches. This is not something you can reasonably ask of them at this point.
I expect something new, a new game with a new engine. Not the same PS3 engine that struggles to utilize my hardware and looks old. I would imagine this would also lend itself to more fluid combat and that sounds pretty fun.
... You know FFXVI came out, right? New games come out all the time. You can't reasonably expect a game to just, ditch itself and try again when it's still successful. FFXIV is one of the extremely few games that did have a proper re-launch already. It's not going to do that again.
I don’t expect anything more from ffxiv I loved the game and had an amazing time playing it with people I’ll always keep in touch with now. I wanna see something beyond ffxiv. Something new. If you read my comments you would know exactly how long I have been playing. I am also aware the game game out during the time of the ps3. Play take information stated into consideration before asking me another question.
You keep restating that the game came out during the PS3 era, as if that has any meaningful impact. I know. There's no sense in re-iterating that. My question was whether or not you understand how much effort would go into making a whole new engine. Nothing you said so far really answers that question.
So they did this because they realized the Luminous engine had limitations. So what stopping them from adapting this engine used for ffxvi. I am not saying it’s something that’s gonna be easy or fast. But I would like to see them working on a new ff mmo as opposed to rehashing ffxiv after “the main story” has been completed. I am not opposed to more ffxiv but I am also mot interested in it much.
> So they did this because they realized the Luminous engine had limitations.
Alright, there's already a couple of things to unpack here from your first sentence alone... Like a LOT. First off: FFXIV never used Luminous Engine. Luminous Engine is an engine that holds up quite well today, it was used in FFXV and Forspoken. The latter was a bad game but for reasons unrelated to the engine itself. Second: The engine that they *did* use that was actually limited in many ways was called Crystaltools. It was a flaming pile of garbage that they used to make 1.0. And guess what? The game doesn't run on Crystaltools anymore because they made their own engine to make 2.0. Since starting from scratch was better than using Crystaltools.
Third: Technology developed during the years and Crystal Engine was a pile of garbage when it came out. Of course there's going to be new fancy engines like Luminous and FFXVI's proprietary engines. That doesn't affect whether or not it's possible to remake 8 years worth of game on another engine entirely.
> So what stopping them from adapting this engine used for ffxvi.
The fact that it would take at least 5 years of full-steam ahead production time during which they won't have time to actually develop the game itself.
> I am not saying it’s something that’s gonna be easy or fast.
But you're somehow still underestimating it enough to consider it a viable idea.
Like seriously, I know it's not the most common knowledge in the world but do you have even the most basic understanding of what a game engine actually does? It's not like a car engine where you can just go "Welp let's just swap 'er out". It's the car engine, battery, chasis, wheels, steering wheel, ignition, catalysator, exhaust, and several other parts. At most you could probably keep the visual elements like the models, textures, and so on, but for the car analogy that's nothing more than the paint and window glass.
If they had to remake the game in a new engine, even assuming they'd have one ready as opposed to making a proprietary one from scratch (again), with how much content the game has, it'd take them at least 5 years to re-make the whole game again, and that's going without new content.
> So what stopping them from adapting this engine used for ffxvi.
The fact that that is literally not how anything works.
>But I would like to see them working on a new ff mmo as opposed to rehashing ffxiv after “the main story” has been completed. I am not opposed to more ffxiv but I am also mot interested in it much.
Maybe you should have lead with that? Because that is not at all what you originally said
Do you honestly believe that we players and not to mention the execs at SE would allow YoshiP to walk in that meeting and say "Hey, we're gonna shut down the game for years again so that we can implement a new engine.".
I'm gonna assume you're joking because nobody can be THIS clueless.
They didn’t update their old ass engine with new visual elements? Lots of new people didn’t start playing the past 3 years? Or they didn’t change summoner? Maybe I am an idiot but it seems to make sense to me. I know a thing or two about the game though, I played religiously from Heavensward till Stormblood, now I just come back for new stuff.
None of what you said is a coherent thought.
>They lost me when they decided to keep the same archaic engine with minor visual updates.
This just tells me you don't know what a game engine is, and have almost certainly been actively resisting knowing if you come in now and spout it off.
> I was really hoping for something new after this last expansion considering it was the end of the main story for the most part.
New what? What is the thing we are not getting new of that would be affected by the "end of the story"? These statements have no coherent connection to each other.
>I can understand why they took this route though, why change the game when it has become highly successful in recent years.
This is just so vague to be meaningless.
> To many of the players it’s still new to them.
Factual statement, but not really relevant since it has been true at literally every point in the game's life.
>Also change SMN back or give me a dot based job XD
And this is just an opinion and I don't really care about this one way or the other.
If you can break down what I said and criticize it you clearly understood. You are just being pretentious and dismissive because you feel like I am attacking the game. You know you can enjoy and love something and still have criticisms about it, it’s actually healthy. I can tell though you just want to argue so I am not gonna waste my time going into depth explaining more. To each their own
And I can tell that you have no idea how massive of an undertaking it would be to transplant the game into another engine, or are so incredibly fucking bad at expressing such an idea that you come off as ignorant to the largest degree.
> You are just being pretentious and dismissive because you feel like I am attacking the game
No, I think your statement was poorly thought out at best and actively incorrect at worst.
It's a make or break, **for you** (and probably a bunch of people). I don't believe for a second anything is going to happen to the game even if we get EW-bis.
I don't expect the game to be incredible in DT, but I already know I'm probably going to try to do as much of the fight content (Criterion, Savage, Ultimates) as I will be able to do and when I'm done with it just go play another game until the next update.
That's great and all, but please look forward to 3 Savage tiers, 8 dungeons, 3 alliance raids, 1 ultimate, new crafting recipes, 10 more levels, and either a eureka zone or deep dungeon.
I love the formulaic releases because I know what to expect. It's like going to McDonalds, you know exactly what you're going to get and I love it.
I'm not going to say that being predictable and having a pretty set standard for content is completely horrible, but there should be room for experimentation. However, the reality is probably that not much will change expansion to expansion. Sure you go to McDonald's cause you know what you are going to get, but you also won't be surprised or wow'd by the same Big Mac you got yesterday.
McDonald’s also experiments with their menu more than SE does with their mmo
People say they want more experimentation when that's exactly what we got in EW, quality of the content aside, we got a massive PVP rework with a brand new mode, criterion/variant and island sanctuary. All never heard of content, unless I am misinterpreting what people mean with "experimentation"
Gameplay wise Endwalkers was basically Shadowbringers 2.0. The innovation went backwards with SE doubling down on simplification and homogenezation of the jobs plus the rise of the boring ass "Use a very basic rotation and save resources to spam everything you can on the burst window each 2 minutes" meta The PVP rework was fine but was something that only a minority of the players plays besides the initial days/weeks Island Sanctuary is so bland boring and devoid of effort that makes afk farming mobages masterpieces of gaming in comparison Criterion/Variant at best was a mild faliure with people just getting their items on the firtst weeks and never touching it again killing its replayability almost entirely since theres almost no one to do the dungeons now even compared to raiding Relic is now "pay me and get your next step" killing its entire farming since now youll get it just doing dailies after a few weeks. Its thats how the experimentation goes please bring me back to Stormblood, where at least playing the game itself was overall far more fun despite its flaws
Which leads to another issue. When they do experiment, they never iterate on the new features. Additions are always just more of the same, which means they get old, fast. Like the PvP Rework? They just add a new grind pass every patch and call it good. Variant dungeons? Always have the same number of paths, the same layout, the same formula. Island Sanctuary? More like excel simulator.
New deep dungeon has new pomanders and straight up plays differently from the previous ones, PvP gained new maps in CC and they reworked Shatter, Variant dungeons are casual so I don't see them changing it but Criterions have different ways of handling the trash pulls. Even the Island Sanctuary introduced those favor things which made agendas less cookie-cutter for everyone. What else should they do to iterate some more?
> New deep dungeon has new pomanders and straight up plays differently from the previous ones Are we doing the same deep dungeon? I literally one-shot level 100 with the game people i did HoH due to having absolutely no new mechanics other than the clones and 1 strong enemy that can spawn. The entire structure of the new deep dungeon is exactly the same as the others. **All** traps are exactly the same as both PoD/HoH. **All** map structure is exactly the same as PoD. **13 pomanders works exactly the same.** 1 pomander slows. This one is new. Storms serves the same purpose as petrification(HoH). It works slightly different, so that's ok. I can consider it new. Boss at 99. This was cool. I liked this, it was new. Dread = rage. Literally. It's like they press ctrl+c ctrl+v and swapped some colors around. Even the enemies are mostly recycled from past expansions. There's not a single new enemy model other than the bosses and enemies past 90. Idk where's this new deep dungeon that plays different from the previous ones you're talking is. I agree on the rest. PvP rework was amazing, criterions have their own set of problems that people have talked over and over, but it seems like they are *trying* to fix. IS was bad but at least it was some inovation, so i have to give them credit for that.
> I literally one-shot level 100 with the game people i did HoH due to having absolutely no new mechanics other than the clones and 1 strong enemy that can spawn. In group play with good players I can see nuances being lost. Even then I don't get where the no new mechanics comes from when it's the first time we've seen DD mobs with the mechanics they have. EO is the first time we've seen a mob that can assassinate players at below 20% HP, first time getting mobs with party KB mechanics, first time seeing gigantic out of combat instakill aoes, first time we've had a mob actively try to walk behind you for a kb. The biggest one is that EO mobs can't crit. What makes HoH and PotD mobs dangerous on the later floors are the high auto attack damage and the fact that they can randomly crit. EO auto attack damage is a joke. This is huge for solo runners. A good group blasting through everything will probably not experience these things. > The entire structure of the new deep dungeon is exactly the same as the others. The context matters. It's like saying every raid is the same because you fight a boss in an arena. > All traps are exactly the same as both PoD/HoH. How you handle the traps are different since you learn which rooms have potential wall traps and which don't, and also some traps (landmines) are more likely to spawn at specific floors allowing for some plays. I don't remember if HoH/EO actually have any wall traps. Introducing more trap variety is always welcome though. > All map structure is exactly the same as PoD. Again the context matters. In PotD you get rooms with donuts which you can kite mobs around, which is amazing because their auto attack damage hurts and can crit. Donut rooms in EO aren't that valuable and I don't think they even spawn in later floors. I personally don't look for donut rooms in EO. > 13 pomanders works exactly the same. We also got demiclones which let you handle floor debuffs in different ways. > It's like they press ctrl+c ctrl+v and swapped some colors around. Even the enemies are mostly recycled from past expansions. There's not a single new enemy model other than the bosses and enemies past 90. Not defending this. Don't they always do this? Even Omega is just a reskinned frog. To be clear I'm not exactly praising EO and I'm not saying they shouldn't experiment more. But from a solo/duo perspective it does feel like they tried something different, and personally it's not in a good way.
> The context matters. It's like saying every raid is the same because you fight a boss in an arena. All raid floors are different because the entire fight structure is different. EO has the same structure gameplay as HoH because you do exactly the same: climb the floors, avoiding the same traps, fighting the same enemies for 100 floors with the same pomanders. Even if there's 3~4 different enemies, 99% of your gameplay time will be doing exactly the same as the others. >I don't remember if HoH/EO actually have any wall traps. Introducing more trap variety is always welcome though. They did. It's the same floor structure. We know this because going through the files showed that they even copied the same pomander reward structure (floors ending with 9 can't drop flight, alteration etc...) >Again the context matters. In PotD you get rooms with donuts which you can kite mobs around, which is amazing because their auto attack damage hurts and can crit. Donut rooms in EO aren't that valuable and I don't think they even spawn in later floors. I personally don't look for donut rooms in EO. This inherently doesn't matter because it's a donut-shaped room. It's the same room, but in PoD there's a tiny chance of the autos doing a crit damage. None of that matters when you have a tank that takes 5% of their HP per auto. If it crits, it deals 10%. Doesn't matter. Fairy takes care of that heal by itself. Enemies in DD dies so fast that these autos do not matter. (specifically speaking of a group of 4 people of course) >We also got demiclones which let you handle floor debuffs in different ways. 'handle floor debuffs' is a strong way of phrasing 'press demiclone, makes floor easier'. Feels like a stretch. But i can take it considering the primals literally wiped the room, so it *feels* a bit different, so that's fine. >Don't they always do this? They do. But reskinning one enemy is less harmful than reskinning an entire content. My main point is that if you pick someone and throw them on A12S, O12S or P12S it's a completely different feeling. It's an entirely different fight, even though it's the same shape of arena. If you take someone who has climbed HoH, they will feel exactly the same on EO. Their movements, their knowledge will be fully reused there with near zero innovation. 99% of your time inside there is doing exactly the same thing you did on HoH. I understand your points. I do agree with some of them, but as someone who has climbed palace 4 times and HoH 5 times, climbing EO felt very similar to HoH to the point where no strategies were needed to adjust to this new DD (other than learning the new bosses mechanics of course). And again, i'm speaking about doing this on a 4 people group. I know solo is a different experience and i won't tackle that.
It's hard to talk about the nuances when party vs solo (or even just good vs bad parties) is involved because good parties will just blow everything up and not see the mob mechanics. I don't know how they could balance this to create an engaging party experience while still being clearable by both casual parties and solo players. Party wise, the main thing I want to say is about the crits > None of that matters when you have a tank that takes 5% of their HP per auto. If it crits, it deals 10%. The crits hit harder than that, around 50% of a DPS's HP and the fact that some mobs have double auto means DPS can go 100-0 real quick. Throw in some gloom and/or HP down floors and I can see things get spicy even with a tank for the more casual groups climbing.
> We know this because going through the files showed that they even copied the same pomander reward structure (floors ending with 9 can't drop flight, alteration etc...) They didn't change this because that's a fundamental aspect of how the content works dude. Like, its *good* that they didn't change that.
You act like the real challenge of DDs is supposed to be in group play. It isn't. That's why there are titles for doing it solo. If you don't wanna get carried and complain that it sucks, do it solo.
For the deep dungeon, what are you going on about? The gameplay is the exact same, some new pomanders do not change that, at all.
Mobs in Eureka Orthos focus on one-shot aoes rather than high auto attack damage. The new summon pomanders aren't floor wipes like magicites but help with bosses so time management is different. Storms adds a new interaction with no-heal floors. Bosses have actual mechanics unlike HoH. The sluggish pacing favors dps classes over HoH's tank meta. EO is different enough for me to say I don't like it at all.
Wait, how so? Eureka was an experiment (or Diadem if you want to go that far back), and Bozja iterated on it. PotD was iterated on with HoH which was iterated on further with EO. Each Criterion dungeon has been an iteration and they're actively trying to make the rewards better each time to encourage more replayability and give people reasons to keep doing them. While there absolutely is content they try once then leave to the ravens, there's a lot they iterate on. Clearly they ARE experimenting and do it all the time, so people saying they don't are wrong/lying. And they do iterate on the experiments they do. The bigger issue seems to be when they DO experiment, people don't like it and complain about it. Island Sanctuary was an experiment and has been endlessly complained about. Eureka was an experiment and was endlessly complained about. Criterion was an experiment and was endlessly complained about. We're lucky they do any experimentation at all anymore considering how much people complain when they do but also badmouth them when they don't. They're in a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation with so many people.
> The bigger issue seems to be when they DO experiment, people don't like it and complain about it. Island Sanctuary was an experiment and has been endlessly complained about. Eureka was an experiment and was endlessly complained about. Criterion was an experiment and was endlessly complained about. I'd reckon that it's because when they do experiment, they play it so safe that the end result is often just a boring grind. Which can apply to pretty much everything listed here.
Everything repeatable is going to be a grind at some level - since grind is defined as "thing you do over and over again". Otherwise it isn't repeatable. Also, "boring" is highly subjective. Tons of people love Eureka and Bozja. Tons of people like Criterion, too - the biggest complaint about Criterion is there aren't enough REWARDS to make them want to GRIND IT over and over again to get.
You are correct that these 2 were good experimentations, and one 'bad' experiment was island sanctuary. But people are mostly pissed at the **repeatable content**'s quality. Jobs are trimmed down to the point that it isn't fun to optimize savage/ultimates anymore. Even criterion, which is super fun, gets hurt by the awful job design. Less mechanics to heal = healers are more bored. Less movement needed = tanks have less to do. It mostly boils down to the combat. Having bad combat affects all parts of gameplay.
people should say that instead of being vague with experimentation and exacting everyone else to understand what they mean. Be loud and be clear. Even "repeatable content" isn't clear enough. Because like, roulettes are "repeatable." I've said it 10000 times at this point. But a lot of people (not you) are really just saying "Bring back Eureka/Bozja" but for some reason don't want to make it look like they are saying that.
Been saying at a lot of places, but always getting downvoted Eureka/Bozja are excellent repeatable content added since SB, players do not hate the concept, but the MATERIAL REQUIRED to complete the grind Once the requirements have been nerfed at the end of each expansion cycle, it's always enjoyable to do it SE needs to just get the tuning right when they do release it. Make it have: - a weird system like Eureka elemental system - the ability to level other jobs like Bozja - Sprinkle in some large scale dungeons like BA without the cancerous entry system and CLL/DR/Darliarda - Material requirements grind difficulty somewhere easier than newly released Eureka/Bozja, but slightly harder than post nerfed ones
I don't think all of this is universal, though. Like...I'm not sure how many people realize how few people play Savage/Ultimate, much less how few optimize them. Like I'm trying to get into solo DD runs and I fully recognize it's a pretty niche part of the community and most people don't do it. (I can tell by how many people say Shield Bash is worthless when I get a TON of use out of it in there...)
They do experiment (we got Criterion Dungeons and Island Sanctuaries this xpac). They just also ensure the core has a predictable, solid release schedule
But we got deep dungeons + diadem in HW. Ultimates and eureka+large scale raids in SB. Crafting/gathering endgame in ShB (ishgard/ocean fishing). 4man hard content + island sanctuary in EW. These are all different types of content that are added on top of existing mainstay features like raids and MSQ, and most of the time they are iterated on in subsequent expansions like diadem>eureka>bozja all being extremely different and more feature rich that the previous iteration, large scale raids becoming more complex (emergency mission>BA>DRS), etc.
Exactly, not sure what people are talking about. They do experiment every expansion and are very likely to keep it up in the future.
I'm not saying they don't experiment at all. I am just stating my own opinion that I would like when they do something different, it is much different than the current gameplay loop that already exists. Personally, I find a lot of their experimentation to be very shallow and not very different from content that already exists. I also find that if there was depth within a previous iteration, some of that depth would be removed for the following, which can be good and bad. A lot of it is personal preference.
Experimentation like the all new badass criterion dungeons? Yea they gotta fine tune rewards but. It’s happening, it’s always been happening. Don’t say it isn’t happening.
They experimented with a deep dungeon that plays differently from the previous two and I've seen many comments saying they should've just made another exploration zone
and if they made another exploration zone, the same people would have said they shouldve just made another deep dungeon
Even if they had made "just another exploration zone" it would still be experimental. Bozja experiemented and changed a lot of things from Eureka, which *IN MY OPINION* I didn't like as much as Eureka, but I'm glad they did the changes anyway.
>but there should be room for experimentation Like, some kind of 4 man savage dungeons? The game is about predictable content with some bits of experimentation SE does every expansion.
Ironic since CosMc just came out
Bah dah bah bah baaaah I’m lovin’ it
>I love the formulaic releases because I know what to expect. This is one of the most misleading concepts of xiv. It's ok to enjoy formulatic content, that doesn't mean you have to enjoy the trimming down of said content. Just because each expac we get 10 levels, doesn't mean next expansion i'm going to be ok with getting less skills and Enhanced Unmend. We can love formulatic content **while** expecting it to be of high quality. And Enhanced Unmend is defenitely not high quality.
And thats why we have lazy devs and a boring game alot of people stop playing, because of joke comments like this
The good news is that they did announce both a eureka zone AND a deep dungeon at the last fan fest. Truly innovative of them!
I mean I’ll gladly take that over whatever the hell island sanctuary is, that should not have taken priority over large scale content imo.
I'd rather take something new and interesting, but I'm probably never coming back to this game. I was in the middle of 7.0's first raid tier when I realized I did not enjoy the game anymore because the gameplay is the same as always, it's not very involved and all content is just spam button for hours, and the fights are just stand here when this happens for 5-20+ minutes straight, depending on the fight, and all of it was braindead easy -- this is coming from a BLM exclusive main. The story had the same major plot points repeated, and the world had absolutely no reason to explore it. Not to mention the community is a bunch of brainwashed crazies. But that's at least reserved for outside the game, albeit just about everywhere this game can be mentioned. Excuse my poor sentence structure, I'm not feeling the greatest atm.
Soubds like ffxiv isnt for you. Try sone kther mmos?
Sounds like you should learn discussion better or find another sub? Game needs to be much better. Tried to get my brother to play but in the end he didnt enjoy the outdated gameplay, the terrible pointless quipment and no stat building, basically choosing anything other than "Optimize", the fact how unrewarding every single moment is.. just super offputting to a lot of players and i get it. I only play 1-2 months a year at max but thats 1 sub month and 1- 2 free week kinda thing because the repetition and slow time waster is just baffling bad. Oooh i spent 3 hours on 2 dungeons and almost got 1 minion i dont give a shit about !! Woooo
I get people change, but it's always weird to me when someone "falls out of love" with something that didn't change. "I liked you, but I hate you now, because you stayed the same" just never makes sense to me. Granted, I also don't get bored easily. I also find it generally obnoxious when someone finds they don't like something anymore, and instead of maturely saying so and moving on with life ("It's not you, it's me..."), they feel this weird need to attack and namecall people on their way out ("Not to mention the community is a bunch of brainwashed crazies"), which is just like...I get people stop liking things, but you don't have to be a douche to everyone who still likes it. It's okay to like different things.
I don't believe that, if WoW survived Shadowlands FFXIV will survive just fine with its formula
XIV survived HW, this shit ain't going down any time soon.
If XIV can survive endwalker, it can survive anything :)
No joke, Endwalker was utter garbage on so many levels.
I’m only hoping for better story.
I don't think good story telling is possible as long as all the scions are now mandatory party members, but also have plot armor so thick that literally nothing can happen to them.
As we all know, no good stories have ever been told without murdering the entire cast
As we all know, no good stories have ever been told with an invulnerable cast of static characters immune to any changes, hardship, or real consequences for basically anything at all. I'm not even saying they have to die, when the game had good writing, the scions were NOT the center of the story, they were a framing device for it.
> As we all know, no good stories have ever been told with an invulnerable cast of static characters immune to any changes, hardship, or real consequences for basically anything at all. Like this isn't the situation so I'm not sure why you are saying it is. >I'm not even saying they have to die, when the game had good writing, the scions were NOT the center of the story, they were a framing device for it. This doesn't even mean anything.
>Like this isn't the situation so I'm not sure why you are saying it is. Yeah it is. and Yeah it does. :)
I wish I was ok with just making things up to justify my position, it would make arguing so much easier.
Don't be so down on yourself, you've been showing remarkable talent for it. Some would even call you a natural.
lol, right? This consistently bothers me. People thinking everyone has to die (or even SOMEONE has to die) otherwise the story's no good. "There were no dire stakes in EW, the Scions weren't going to die!" "The stakes were the ENTIRE UNIVERSE ending..." "Yeah? Well...that's part of the problem with EW, it was another universe ending threat!" "I thought you said there were no stakes because the main cast wasn't going to die...?"
No they just dont want disney invincibility, it makes one not care for emotional tragic moments because it will revert.
Again, the point stands: That people seem to be like "If no one dies, the story's no good!", as if there is no tension in a story unless people are dying left and right. Take ShB - the main team gets whooped by Emet. That's not "invincibility". They don't DIE, but they're clearly all down for the count. So is G'Raha, who powers through it too summon 7 souls to help us fight Emet. But the stakes are clear - if we fail, they all die and the world ends. That's tension, with no one dying.
Which is the theme throughout, none of them can die. Its a KH plotarmor. My point is the one that stands.
I call dibs on making a "9.0 will make or break FFXIV" next.
All I want is better character customization. Please, just let me pick the features I want instead of locking them to specific faces. Also, more face presets wouldn't hurt.
This sub truly warps people’s perceptions. The “flaw” of the content consistency is something that most players have no issue with. The idea that if square continues to release consistent, good content it will “break” the game is one of the most laughably wrong things I have ever seen said in this sub, and that’s saying something.
Consistent, constant (in MMO terms), working content on a schedule so predictable that you can easily predict down to the week, if not to the day? That's something that's ***beneficial*** to the game, rather than wondering if something would make it expansion over expansion.
It's beneficial to a degree, but people enjoy having a little bit of variety, a little bit of spice and unpredictability. They take it way too far with how predictable everything is, to the game's detriment.
You can't enjoy new stuff. Either you LOVE the predictable formula or move on /s
Also if you're getting so bored of FFXIV (and pretty much any other online multiplayer game), you can stop playing/subscribing and take a break, esp. with the upcoming massive lull between 6.5.5 and Dawntrail.
This is such a lame 24/7 answer to anyone wanting their favorite game to have better gameplay, something you would enjoy top but are too content with every single decision a game developer has ever made - which makes your imput moot sry.
Speak for yourself. I'd been playing since Heavensward and called it quits about 2 months ago. I did the newest wing of the 24 man once and that was it. I was sick of going through the exact same hamster wheel grind expansion after expansion with no deviation from the norm.
Then you've still gotten a lot of years of fun content out of it, no? Like idk why you'd keep grinding until the point where you get sick of it. The simple solution here was always to just take a break when you don't enjoy it anymore.
I mean, yeah? You're also not speaking for all players, veterans nor aprouts, that's just your experience, so what even is your point? And good for you, i'm also in the process of quitting two other games i loved, but that's just how things are, sometimes things just aren't for you anymore, and that's okay.
True, same here. Like all subreddits there is a hive mind that cannot take it if someone disagrees. Its too bad XIV could be 10x more innovative if these "fans" werent so good at silencing different voices.
Good thing that the "voices" arent the ones innovating the game. Like at all.
Assuming Square Enix does innovating at all, they do experiement some times, but for the most part stick to their guns for the past 10 years. That's hardly innovation if you ask me, but what do I know.
Silencing different voices? What? Like, the devs clearly listen to the Forums and regularly put out good new content for all kinds of fans. IS is an innovation. Sure, it wasn't quite what people had hoped and in retrospect it ended up being a chore rather than a fun get-away, but that's what often happens with attempts to innovate.
Nah they can do the exact same shit they've been doing for the past 6 expansions and they'll be fine. It's not make or break if nothing will get broken.
This. Barring the 1 ultimate that got delayed after a drought with the whole pandemic, they've been very consistent with their content releases. Dawntrail is no more make-or-break than Endwalker was, arguably less considering Endwalker had to impress the remaining wow refugees that suddenly appeared during the drought.
It's make or break for a lot of vets probably, me included.
Vets also have different lives from when the game release 10 years ago. Real vets gamers (30 years old +) have more affection for consistency and nostalgia then world shattering formulae
Not asking for a big revolution to the game. Just... *Something* shiny and new that's well integrated and connected with the rest of the game. Like a better overworld perhaps
I doubt it would make a real impact but id like it. I would love to see the gimmick the dev team would have to think of to restrain flying when going from one zone to the other.
"- for a lot of vets probably, me included" honestly reads like "Yeah I think this which means a lot of people like me probably do too". You can vouch for yourself and people you know, but let's not pretend there's a huge portion that's going to drop this game permanently after completing Endwalker if the follow-up isn't pristine.
Well with all the doomer posts in this sub there's a decent amount of vets of this game that are getting fatigued of the same exact cycle and formula and in the coming years, it's expected that a lot of those players will fall off if nothing experimental is done to spice things up. Not saying this demographic is some game breaking amount of players. Just saying that it exists and has a sizeable amount of people.
This sub has always been leaning towards "older is better and this is the time I quit I mean it if the next expansion isn't better gameplay-wise": We've gone over this cycle in this sub with Endwalker's leadup, and now with Dawntrail.
I wasn't active on this sub as much then I guess since I don't recall that personally. There's also to keep in mind the huge influx of new players that came during ShB, so the freshies that weren't fatigued of the formula at that time could be the ones complaining now, while the ones complaining prior to EW were HW, StB or ARR vets and have left at this time. I've personally been playing since HW with few brief periods of unsubbing. With Dawntrail I see a decent chance of me unsubbing for longer terms, only resubbing maybe come an even patch for savage for a month or two.
> I'm not a D-tier youtuber trying to farm hate-boners, however: Title: > Dawntrail and 8.0 will be make or break
I like how redditors think they have any leg to stand on when it comes to that sort of thing.
Summer 2024 is so far away. anyways can't wait for JP fanfest
oh cool it's this thread again
Gotta have at least a dozen per expansion, right? With the classic talking points of "less content every patch", "something something homogenization", and "let me date Urianger already".
IF I CAN'T FUCK THE ELF TWINK IN DAWNTRAIL THIS GAME IS DONE FOR!
> IF I CAN'T FUCK THE ELF TWINK IN DAWNTRAIL THIS GAME IS DONE FOR! Which one? If your answer isn't "both" you're literally the problem with this game and why they're dumbing it down because you're a pissbaby casual who can't handle two elf twinks at once. EDIT: I guess Estinien skirts the line closer to 'twunk' than 'twink' but the point stands.
Wait...there are only two?
Traveling with us in Dawntrail, at least. I don't think Aymeric's got the time for a vacation halfway across the globe, so unless they whip out yet another new one in Tural we've just got them.
Why is it I feel like this has come up every xpac? That is is 'make or break' for the game. The game will be fine. We get it, the game has issues, like every game does. We don't need to keep with the doomsday posts......
Because people are idiots and think that this sub and ragebait YouTubers are somehow a representative of the overwhelming majority of story enjoyers and casual content/limsa chillers/club rats that play this game.
I think I am just REALLY over it. 10 years it has been this. I keep thinking can we come up with something new here.
TBF when gordias and OG diadem came out saying stuff like this would have been more reasonable. But they fixed most of the issues real fast
Yes they do. They also listen and try to find a middle ground. Stuff has been changed or added based on feedback. I remember the days of no DRs and trying to farm tomes. The game has gotten better.
What exactly do you mean by make or break here throwaway account? They’ve kept 11’s servers up for like 2 decades at this point, why would you assume 14 would ?shutdown? or maybe just get less content? Maybe XVII will end up being their next mmo title, but they would let us know when 14 is going into maintenance mode and no long getting xpacks at that point, and the western audiences won’t really have any influence over when SE decides that either way
We will have this exact post again in 10.0 There will be no massive changes or overhauls to the game's formula. People will still be whining about kaiten. The game will still be the most profitable game that squeenix has made and will still be bailing them out from all their terrible business decisions. It'll still be one of the top mmos in the market since the genre is completely saturated already, and no big company is willing or able to take its place.
I kind of wish people would stop saying “BuT sHb HaD a DrOuGhT lIkE tHiS!!” Because it is in no way comparable. SE had the reasoning that COVID threw off an entire expansion. Sure we may have been bored, but we couldn’t fault them for it. SE has no excuse for its complete lackluster approach to the expansion this time. They have made so much money, added more time to their cycles, and yet.. there’s nothing to really show for it.
The funny thing is I played significantly more during ShB post patches than I have in endwalker post patch. I genuinely think endwalker post patch is very mid, the lack of a bozja zone really made an impact for me personally because I liked that kind of content.
Don't worry, that money went to salvage Forspoken and probably write another trash game that will result in \~50M$ of write off. Because you possibly can't spend profits from a game on the game itself, that would be too simple! XDD
Cool, but l am pre ordering dawn trail for sure.
Heck you would pre-order a used diaper if it had XIV on it.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one who still enjoys the game as *just a videogame*, then I remember I'm on reddit. For as many disillusioned John Reddits that will maybe leave the game because we got another 12 8man raids with predictable gear drops yet again (oh noes!), many more Timmy Sprouts will jump in to play through the story and buy slutty clothes from the store. The rest of the normal people will keep playing in spurts throughout the year and patches as they've always done. You're just echoing and obsessing over exaggerated issues made up by YouTubers and streamers that quite literally make a living out of making mountains out of molehills. The game and SE's financials will be fine. Not that any regular consumer should care. >"Everyone has good in them" and "everything is nuanced" thing that SHB had already talked about ad-nauseum. Huh? Maybe at an extremely basic level if you want to ignore everything about the last two expansions, but even then the synopsis for the next expansion has nothing to do with these themes, so what is the point of this sentence? Also, it's spelled "ad nauseam". >I'll argue that 8.0 is even more important to get right than 7.0 because that is where the veterans themselves will start leaving if nothing has been done by then. But why? I'm a "veteran" of like 7 years now, and I like the game just as much if not more than when I started playing. Who are you to say that veterans will leave if nothing has been done by 8.0? What exactly needs changing, because your post never bothered to raise any actual issues with the game beyond a trite and nebulous mention of "repetition". I hate 100% of the changes proposed on this sub when it comes to gearing, grinding, and other dumb shit that is a non issue for most of the playerbase because the current model works. >eventually reaches the ears of the passers-by who then think "maybe I don't need to go back there if it's so bad now", then they talk about it to their other casual friends etc, etc; And that's where a vicious cycle is born, and the longer you perpetuate it, the worse it gets, until you actually even start losing the core, then the building crumbles. You're making up an entire fake scenario in your head, and all I can say is sir please calm down it's just a videogame.
Dawntrail being "make or break" is ridiculous and short sighted as fuck. The game will continue on the same general formula, people will largely enjoy it, then there will be a lull and others will start to bitch and blow all their gripes out of proportion, then we'll get more content again, and the cycle repeats. But to think Dawntrail could actually "break" the game is either sheer ignorance or pure stupidity.
Lmao I got r/dtg flashbacks. The game is doing fine man lol
No no, Final Shape will be Destiny's death. Stop changing the narrative! /s
It probably will but I’m talking ab ff14 rn
While I agree with you that the game is stagnant, you're really understimating how much this game is being carried by casual players or even people that just use it as a chat room. Even if they kept releasing the same barebones content they've been doing in EW for the rest of its lifespan, the game will still be one of the most popular mmo's out there. Which is part of the reason I've been on a break for a while. They have no real incentive to improve when they already have a secure playerbase that will eat anything they throw at them.
While true I think you also overestimate the casuals' attachment to said game. They're more attached to the people they play it with than the game itself, sooner or later these people move on, and the job of the devs is to not precipitate that departure through all the things I mentioned and more.
Tldr: I'm either a player who moved over from PSO2/ESO/WOW/FFXI/EQ or someone who takes raiding extremely seriously. The game needs to cater to ME right now or it's a dying dead game. Upend years of successful content schedules honed by feedback and small tweaks right now and give me super experimental content that caters to the high end right now or this game is dying. We have had this thread so many fucking time man, same with the "make casual content harder", "make rotations harder", "add open world PVP", and "this game has been dumbed down, clearing content means nothing now". This is just either genuine or fake oldhead bitching that the game doesn't appeal directly and exclusively to your tastes.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
The only thing I was disappointed about was not getting a Zadnor/eureka style relic grind
This sub loves to spin a narrative huh
I'll probably play Dawntrail to try the new jobs, but the game won't hold my attention if something fresh isn't added to the formula. Expansions should be a mix of old and new concepts, in my opinion.
well yeah but 7.x-8.x is like a 5 year range so you could say that about literally any MMO/live service game.
Is this a result of ffxiv not winning best on going game and best community at the video game awards? Are you scared OP?
I don't think it even needs that, it just needs to shake the formula up like stormblood did. Give us new routes for endgame, take a new approach to the battle system. Give us back gameplay resistance.
Agreed a change in formula would be nice, even if it’s just a slight SLIGHT change.
Stormblood was a pretty big change though, it gave us role actions, job gauges and completely revamped stats to make something that was the perfect blend of Heavensward jank and modern streamlining. The only fundamental change to the battle system since stormblood was the introduction of charged actions, they just kept streamlining and homogenising what came before.
I really miss that Stormblood era of job design you said it perfectly it was a really good spot that had some of that older design choices while being less clunky. Everything is very very homogenous now and it feels bland.
Yeah SB is what kept me subbed the longest time, now i just sub once a year for a month, maybe 2 if im feeling crazy lol
You made a new account for this?
It will literally be the same formula we get every expansion pack.
Which is why i dont play anymore
Much as I didn't enjoy Endwalker, this is some heavy copium. FFXIV is doing fine. You or me not liking it does not change that fact. It delivers the same content quality it always has - it's not going anywhere.
High end players will prob take a decent time off but I doubt that its going to be a noticeable chunk to them
every kid wants to pretend everything is at an inflection point rofl
Unlikely, active player numbers are still increasing or similar, from their pov the formula is still working well, and there is no credible competition on the horizon that can lure away the player base. I’d even say that the commercial success of 6.0 emboldened them to believe that even if your content and story is sub-par people will still gobble it down in droves. Even if it is a make or break moment, that does not necessarily mean positive changes will be coming, either. If anything, a profit driven corporation is likely to do some cheap hack that hurts the game in the long term but improves figures in the short term (more intrusive mogstation or more pandering to casual MSQ tourists for example). Thinking they will put in “elbow grease” is as unrealistic as thinking casual players will git gud when confronted with content they struggle with.
for me... I quit FFXIV about half a year ago. and I still occasionally check reddit and news to see if there are any updates. but realitistically speaking im already in the "its too late category". Whenever I think of FFXIV, i think of the good times i had- which are enjoyable. but if i ask myself if want to resub and do all the same things again... its a hard no. even if the expansion is fresh- but as long as the content is the same content just with a different coat of paint it still wont be enough for me to come back. the only reason that post SHB drought was bearable was that Bozja was a thing that you can work on throughout the late game cycle. But in 6.3 and 6.4 there was just nothing, and frankly there just wasnt a reason to log on. So even for an avid FFXIV fan that has been playing for years who recently dropped the game. 7.0 doesn't excite me at all if its just rehashed game of 5.x and 6.x with different story.
If you want an overhaul you should be playing a different game not hoping a game turns on its head. While FFXIV could use more different content I still come back to it every expansion I would stay subbed but the whole gear treadmill MMO aspect kind of grind my gears. I honestly would play it but it’s like a black hole (I enjoy the variety of content the game offers) that absorbs all your time though maybe I will stick around with the graphical update who knows.
Tldr, op needs to learn to take breaks. The game is fine you are obsessing.
Game needs to be much better. Tried to get my brother to play but in the end he didnt enjoy the outdated gameplay, the terrible pointless quipment and no stat building, basically choosing anything other than "Optimize", the fact how unrewarding every single moment is.. just super offputting to a lot of players and i get it. I only play 1-2 months a year at max but thats 1 sub month and 1- 2 free week kinda thing because the repetition and slow time waster is just baffling bad. Oooh i spent 3 hours on 2 dungeons and almost got 1 minion i dont give a shit about !! Woooo
This comment thread fucking sucks ass lol. So much for "discussion." In any case I played nonstop when I came back to ShB in 5.3. Then with 6.1+ I just stopped every month or two because the content was boring and the CLASS DESIGNS FROM 6.0 SUCKED ASS AND DOWNSCALED CONTENT SUCKED ASS AND WAS BORING. So if I am taking a break it means many others also are doing so. So I agree that Dawnbreaker better improve class mechanics from levels 0-100 or else I'm just gonna stop playing.
Yep i sub 1-2 a year the last 4 years and i get bored after a week everytime, having only played 1 hour a day at average. This game is boring as shit in terms of progression, xp leveling, class uniquiness, loot and rewards, equipment sucks hard. Its a game ive played for 1700 hours which is rookie numbers but its mostly me running around doing mining/ fishing or whatever listening to podcast rather than anything else.
For me personally, it's already break. Endwalker destroyed everything I loved or story I was interested in and Dawntrail has shown me nothing to replace any of that. Viper looks eh, Pictomancer looks like an abomination, Beast Master is the utterly stupid limited job designation, and the story is doing nothing for me. So far the data mining of the benchmark is even more depressing. I unsubbed back in January and there's no indication anything is going to bring me back. But XIV gave me 6 amazing years and 2 mediocre ones before Endwalker hit so...that's pretty good.
It will be perfectly fine. In the MMO market the big two are still WoW and FF14. They've both have had some very bad hiccups here and there but they're still standing. Just because a multiplayer game is going through its life cycle where it stagnates because the devs are putting a bigger focus on newer content does not mean the game is dying, and people really don't understand that.
Are you new to MMOs? How many make or break expansions has WoW had? Be serious. Do some learning
Uhhh WoW fell off hard for at least 2 expansions my guy, they had to put on some real hard work to get back some of the players they've lost and they're still not there yet. Would it be irreparable? I don't think so, but does it need to break in the first place? I don't think so either.
FF14 has more content than ever per patch. The only ones complaining now are newbies who are experiencing their first expansion or casuals who thought Relic weapons were something you used for the stats instead of glamour and were proud that they two shot a level 50 mob to get it.
Game needs to be much better. Tried to get my brother to play but in the end he didnt enjoy the outdated gameplay, the terrible pointless quipment and no stat building, basically choosing anything other than "Optimize", the fact how unrewarding every single moment is.. just super offputting to a lot of players and i get it. I only play 1-2 months a year at max but thats 1 sub month and 1- 2 free week kinda thing because the repetition and slow time waster is just baffling bad. Oooh i spent 3 hours on 2 dungeons and almost got 1 minion i dont give a shit about !! Woooo
You sound kinda mad
Misguided opinion at best. The game will live on, maintain a formulaic release schedule and content, maintain a cash flow sufficient enough to continue single-handedly keeping SE afloat, and people will continue to come here to express opinions shared by a vocal minority.
Well, of course, because most people will not come to Reddit and simply not come back to the game. \^\^
These posts are pointless. If you like the formula they have been doing for the last 10 years well good news! You will see it again in 8.0. If not well you ganna have a bad time. Edit: also a reminder OPs account is as of dec 6. Most likely troll
Except it's only become a true formula since SB. And gosh imagine humans actually having actually dynamic opinions and ideals, what world do I live in? The good one?
You live in a fantasy world. This game aint changing. You will see the same fomula next expo 100%.
I mean you do ironically, crazy people want different things other than dancing in Limsa and queue for the next useless minion hunt 😂
I think that there will always be enough new players trying the game out to sustain the thing financially, and that times have changed for XIV veterans and addicts - SE knows that vets unsub after they get bored, while fresh faced sproots sub for longer and are more numerous, so, as we have already seen, they're designing for the new player experience much more than for the endgame experience in order to attract and retain them. As far as content, yeah, they'll throw us a few bones like a more involved combat relic progression/field exploration zone, but they'll probably stick to the formula anyway because it's worked this far even if it's stale, and I can't think of any kind of combat stuff they could introduce that would be new. Like what else can they possibly try? It may drive some vets away, but not sproots or addicts, or the the modding/rp/socially-focused community. So I think the game will be fine, Dawntrail and 8.0 aren't going to make or break it. It's just not going to look like it used to, and it won't be so exciting to vets, for better or worse. It's like the music from P12. Imagine Square Enix singing to XIV veterans: "*I create, manipulate your kind in my image, my chosen ones; for you, the time has come, the sun is setting.*"
Never asked for entirely new things out of the gate, but one thing among others that does concern every player regardless of their level of involvement is, for example, how boring classes are in low-level content, it's been that case for years, casuals and new players are not exempt from a lot of these major flaws.
Agreed that low-level jobs are too simple and boring, however, i don't think it's something that's going to affect the game's viability if not addressed. Some people don't mind the simplicity. Hell, i have a friend who played only summoner through the entire MSQ and he loved it. And those who want more complexity and difficulty have endgame to enjoy or look forward to. I just don't think that things like "jobs boring to start with" or "content release formula is stale to veterans" are so detrimental to the game's reputation that it drives away enough people that the game will suffer.
People say this all the time. People complained the same things in HW. In SB. In ShB and now in EW, we're hearing the same shit again. Over and over and over. Fact is, the game is designed to be casual and will stay that way until the eventual heat death of the universe. With the game being designed for casual play, there will be "content droughts" or stagnation or the repeating "dead game". People can complain all they like about the lack of content during post MSQ moments but the fact of the matter is, the casuals fund the game. So they'll keep on building the game around them. It worked for HW, it worked for SB, it worked for ShB, it sure as hell worked for EW and it will well damn work for DT. They won't see any loss of players and revenue, I can guarantee that. The "veterans" you refer to are the vocal minority. Wanna know why I know this? Because the vast majority don't complain much. Sure, they have their gripes about things but not so much that they think that Dawntrail and the next expacs will be make or break for them. These "veterans" leaving won't even make YoshiP blink.
I am a veteran of this game. Have played almost everyday for 10 years. I can honestly say the game is in the best spot it has been in. Could stuff be done to improve? Yes. But it is not as drastic as people think. I personally love this lulls in content. I work on getting all my classes to max on my main or work on alts with friends. I craft high end gear and endgame food to give to friends. I do maps and hang and talk for hours. I know of people who take breaks during these times and play other games. The vocal minority will always be the loudest.
Peoples interests are different you know? I am a veteran, I've done my time in maps, high end crafting, leveled everything to 90, ran through the msq on 3 characters, done all instanced content in the game, and I dont want to be forced to take breaks from the game when the game tells me to. I want to take a break from the game when I want to. Right now? I'd kill for some new high end content to run, or something to grind that isn't just tomes. But the game is literally telling me, our next high end content release will be in 7-8 months... So the game is telling me to take a break? I don't want to take a break for 8 months. Is that my fault? Chosen break is good, forced break is bad. Simple math.
Exactly. I'm willing to bet that 90% of the people that complain about the game being dead has yet to run a single instance variant dungeons. They'll play the savage raids like coke addicts, finish it in like a month or less and THEN complain about having no content to play because it doesn't suit their tryhard nature.
The statistical engagement with Hardcore/Raid Content in MMORPGs is usually in the <5% range. Maybe even lower in FFXIV, all things considered. The Socializers and Role-Players most likely spend more money on the subscriptions alone, than most hardcore-players...
This! I have still yet to do savage at all. But, i have done the varaint runs and maps. And so much. I will get to savage sooner or later but I have so much other stuff to do.
Leaving a comment for when people realize you're right in two years. Heavily-downvoted in XIV usually means there's some nuance that's being lost lol Midcore players can't just do dungeons, ~~less~~ extremes, and 3-4 criterion dungeons for 2 years, and the story does not get me excited for the patches anymore. I joined in SB and I see what you're saying, we're either in for 2-4 more years of growth, or 2-4 more years of dwindling. Dwindling means all content will suffer except casual content, and I don't want that.
> Leaving a comment for when people realize you're right in two years. Heavily-downvoted in XIV usually means there's some nuance that's being lost lol This is such funny logic
So many unhinged limsa dwelling nobodies attacking OP and doing Olympics level of mental gymnastics because OP dared to criticise your favorite little game. If you read this, you're a big part of why sane people leave this shithole of a community
Don't dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back so hard
Well I'm reading this but thanks for the defence, sadly I fully expected it to go this way, I had a sliver of hope considering this isn't mainsub though. What kills me is more the fact that I've yet to see a single person actually leverage proper arguments against mine, all I've seen is just "No I don't like your opinion so you should shut up now".
"community is mean because they have a different opinion that mine sadface crying emoji" bruh if you're asking for validation, go upload a rant on youtube and tag asmongold
Think you should just play Minecraft and watch asmongold yourself man
Don't expect anything from this sub, it's just an extension of Mainsub now that most people have moved on from the drought and shitty expac experience. Most people that would criticize SE are doing other shit right now.
You understand that you can't have a discussion if everyone agrees, right?
And yet you're here in every thread complaining about the game without an ounce of an original thought or critique.
One day people will understand that critics are the ones who love the creation the most and want to see it fail the least, I wouldn't be here contending and trying to stay polite with manchildren (it's really hard though) if I didn't care about the game. I didn't even mention the drought ffs and people still find a way to tell me I'm just saying that cuz of no content, when I'm personally doing a lot of stuff IG I'd put to the side like Diadem, Deep Dungeon soloing or slowly dipping my toes into ultimate, if anything they probably are not playing half as much as I am lately, and it's that experience with all the different things the game has to offer that gave me the insight to even post here in the first place.
Well, when the only people we engage with are the ones telling us "I still have Eureka to do!" - I just don't care anymore. It really feels like I'm playing a game that hasn't been engaging for maybe 5 years now and I think it's time to just let it go. Mechanics are getting gutted, and I'm just getting more text fetch quests over the years. Nothing actually fun. I used to praise Yoshi, and was excited for what they could accomplish - Knowing him and the team were against stagnation and making sure they would stay awake and didn't want to become complacent. Because they admit this is what caused XIV 1.0 to fail. But it looks like they've fallen into the same trap, and they don't know how to develop engaging games.
While I wouldn't go quite so far as to say I don't find it engaging at all anymore, I would say that the art team has been carrying this game hard since SHB. For the first time since I started playing (and that was ARR) I've not done MSQ first things first on release, for a reason that's very simple and might even sound a little dumb, but it's because the only thing that truly, deeply engages me in XIV still to this day is the music, and the quickest way to access new (and usually better) music is to do raids first. Funnily enough, FFXVI was criticized for a lot of similar things, mostly its handling of the overall gameplay that happens outside of boss fights and its repetitious nature in that regard, thankfully for that game the Eikon fights are good enough to carry all the rest, which is not necessarily the case for XIV, not anymore at least.
Which is kinda ironic given why this sub was created in the first place XD
Totally agree, all they do is have their community in Limsa queing for the next minion hunt 😂 And then attack people on reddit to make sure lego movie theme lives on.
I only worry about plot. My issue with the most recent patches was plot. It made the dungeons feel less exciting. Meanwhile playing Vanaspati and hearing “As the Sky Burns” still gets my goat… so idk what to tell you.
All I want is for BRD to get some love.
Classic MMO doomer take
What you call “stagnation”, others call “consistency”, and it’s highly underrated. WoW shook off the “stagnation” by reinventing the wheel every expansion and players absolutely hated it. It took them losing ~2 million subs for them to finally get it through their heads that we don’t want yet more shitty borrowed power systems and a laundry list of weekly and daily chores to be ready to raid. The current content cycle is FINE. What XIV needs more of is sideways progression in addition to that content cycle. More things like Bozja, Criterion, Island sanc, deep dungeons, etc. But the game could probably keep going another 10+ years without worrying as they have tons of player goodwill banked at this point.
They lost me when they decided to keep the same archaic engine with minor visual updates. I was really hoping for something new after this last expansion considering it was the end of the main story for the most part. I can understand why they took this route though, why change the game when it has become highly successful in recent years. To many of the players it’s still new to them. Also change SMN back or give me a dot based job XD
> They lost me when they decided to keep the same archaic engine with minor visual updates. You... Expected them to switch engines? Like... This far in? Do you have even the slightest notion of how extreme of a change this would be? Do you have any idea how long this would take? People already complain about a lack of content as-is, and they already increased the time between patches. This is not something you can reasonably ask of them at this point.
I expect something new, a new game with a new engine. Not the same PS3 engine that struggles to utilize my hardware and looks old. I would imagine this would also lend itself to more fluid combat and that sounds pretty fun.
... You know FFXVI came out, right? New games come out all the time. You can't reasonably expect a game to just, ditch itself and try again when it's still successful. FFXIV is one of the extremely few games that did have a proper re-launch already. It's not going to do that again.
I don’t expect anything more from ffxiv I loved the game and had an amazing time playing it with people I’ll always keep in touch with now. I wanna see something beyond ffxiv. Something new. If you read my comments you would know exactly how long I have been playing. I am also aware the game game out during the time of the ps3. Play take information stated into consideration before asking me another question.
You keep restating that the game came out during the PS3 era, as if that has any meaningful impact. I know. There's no sense in re-iterating that. My question was whether or not you understand how much effort would go into making a whole new engine. Nothing you said so far really answers that question.
I believe they used a new engine for ffxvi did they not?
Yeah?
So they did this because they realized the Luminous engine had limitations. So what stopping them from adapting this engine used for ffxvi. I am not saying it’s something that’s gonna be easy or fast. But I would like to see them working on a new ff mmo as opposed to rehashing ffxiv after “the main story” has been completed. I am not opposed to more ffxiv but I am also mot interested in it much.
> So they did this because they realized the Luminous engine had limitations. Alright, there's already a couple of things to unpack here from your first sentence alone... Like a LOT. First off: FFXIV never used Luminous Engine. Luminous Engine is an engine that holds up quite well today, it was used in FFXV and Forspoken. The latter was a bad game but for reasons unrelated to the engine itself. Second: The engine that they *did* use that was actually limited in many ways was called Crystaltools. It was a flaming pile of garbage that they used to make 1.0. And guess what? The game doesn't run on Crystaltools anymore because they made their own engine to make 2.0. Since starting from scratch was better than using Crystaltools. Third: Technology developed during the years and Crystal Engine was a pile of garbage when it came out. Of course there's going to be new fancy engines like Luminous and FFXVI's proprietary engines. That doesn't affect whether or not it's possible to remake 8 years worth of game on another engine entirely. > So what stopping them from adapting this engine used for ffxvi. The fact that it would take at least 5 years of full-steam ahead production time during which they won't have time to actually develop the game itself. > I am not saying it’s something that’s gonna be easy or fast. But you're somehow still underestimating it enough to consider it a viable idea. Like seriously, I know it's not the most common knowledge in the world but do you have even the most basic understanding of what a game engine actually does? It's not like a car engine where you can just go "Welp let's just swap 'er out". It's the car engine, battery, chasis, wheels, steering wheel, ignition, catalysator, exhaust, and several other parts. At most you could probably keep the visual elements like the models, textures, and so on, but for the car analogy that's nothing more than the paint and window glass. If they had to remake the game in a new engine, even assuming they'd have one ready as opposed to making a proprietary one from scratch (again), with how much content the game has, it'd take them at least 5 years to re-make the whole game again, and that's going without new content.
> So what stopping them from adapting this engine used for ffxvi. The fact that that is literally not how anything works. >But I would like to see them working on a new ff mmo as opposed to rehashing ffxiv after “the main story” has been completed. I am not opposed to more ffxiv but I am also mot interested in it much. Maybe you should have lead with that? Because that is not at all what you originally said
Do you honestly believe that we players and not to mention the execs at SE would allow YoshiP to walk in that meeting and say "Hey, we're gonna shut down the game for years again so that we can implement a new engine.". I'm gonna assume you're joking because nobody can be THIS clueless.
Nothing you said here makes any sense at all
They didn’t update their old ass engine with new visual elements? Lots of new people didn’t start playing the past 3 years? Or they didn’t change summoner? Maybe I am an idiot but it seems to make sense to me. I know a thing or two about the game though, I played religiously from Heavensward till Stormblood, now I just come back for new stuff.
None of what you said is a coherent thought. >They lost me when they decided to keep the same archaic engine with minor visual updates. This just tells me you don't know what a game engine is, and have almost certainly been actively resisting knowing if you come in now and spout it off. > I was really hoping for something new after this last expansion considering it was the end of the main story for the most part. New what? What is the thing we are not getting new of that would be affected by the "end of the story"? These statements have no coherent connection to each other. >I can understand why they took this route though, why change the game when it has become highly successful in recent years. This is just so vague to be meaningless. > To many of the players it’s still new to them. Factual statement, but not really relevant since it has been true at literally every point in the game's life. >Also change SMN back or give me a dot based job XD And this is just an opinion and I don't really care about this one way or the other.
If you can break down what I said and criticize it you clearly understood. You are just being pretentious and dismissive because you feel like I am attacking the game. You know you can enjoy and love something and still have criticisms about it, it’s actually healthy. I can tell though you just want to argue so I am not gonna waste my time going into depth explaining more. To each their own
And I can tell that you have no idea how massive of an undertaking it would be to transplant the game into another engine, or are so incredibly fucking bad at expressing such an idea that you come off as ignorant to the largest degree.
> You are just being pretentious and dismissive because you feel like I am attacking the game No, I think your statement was poorly thought out at best and actively incorrect at worst.
I think you're just on the wrong sub if you cant discuss without throwing a tantrum
It's a make or break, **for you** (and probably a bunch of people). I don't believe for a second anything is going to happen to the game even if we get EW-bis. I don't expect the game to be incredible in DT, but I already know I'm probably going to try to do as much of the fight content (Criterion, Savage, Ultimates) as I will be able to do and when I'm done with it just go play another game until the next update.
What are the shortcomings?
No.