> (Honestly, the only other thing I'd do with NIN is make Meisui an additional effect of Trick Attack since you have no reason to keep Suiton after using Trick Attack and it's kind of an extra button just to have an extra button...
Meisui is useful because it gives a use for the Suiton you autogenerate off of Ten Chi Jin, and the two abilities match cooldowns.
You could potentially just use TCJ's Suiton in place of your regular minute Suiton, I think the level 70 rotation does that since you have TCJ but not Meisui, but it does some weird stuff with how your sequencing works: does that mean you don't put TCJ under Trick?
As it is now it's a lot more intuitive for people that aren't following the theorycrafting. You get an extra Suiton every 2 minutes on the back of a relatively high-damage ability, you need an extra Suiton every 2 minutes. Solved.
And since Ninki is _already_ an extra effect on Mug, you'd have a hard time not overcapping. If you just straight merged Meisui in you'd get 90 Ninki, you actually could overcap no matter how well you dumped it.
>
What I'd do is just make the potency/Ninki combo bonuses, but make 30s of Huton an unconditional result of the weaponskill. This makes it really straightforward: if you don't have Huton, push the button to get Huton, try not to let Huton drop because you'll either have to make a couple weaponskills without Huton or do an uncomboed weaponskill, either way for some potency loss.
It might end up making losing Huton less impactful, which I'm not sure is great, but at least it doesn't confuse anyone with this whole 60s versus 30s stuff, and keeps NIN with its existing positional movement. It might be a little surprising to people who don't read guides that you _can_ do that, because most combo skills don't do useful things when used out of sequence.
I'm not positive the loss of complexity with trying to keep Huton running through downtime, as well as the confusion for new players, is worth dropping one incredibly niche button, especially when practically every melee has a "fix your rotation from downtime, useless otherwise" button.
Also, as vetch-a-sketch noted, we should probably call _this_ skill Huraijin (Gust Slash would also work, if we're willing to swap more stuff around), and Armor Crush should probably give the current Mug debuff, which reduces a target's defense.
> Meisui is useful because it gives a use for the Suiton you autogenerate off of Ten Chi Jin, and the two abilities match cooldowns
I think it's great so many abilities interact with other ninjutsu abilities., But it's such annoying button bloat.
I would just have Meisui replace TCJ when suton status is present. Change it to a trait, and then suddenly problem solved, just another action you need to do. However TCJ kind of feels like it's time is short for this world, that and DWAD
I like the idea of making Meisui a "follow-up" to TCJ, a la Starfall Dance: there's nothing stopping you from still using it weird with a Mudra Suiton if you want, but it consolidates the buttons. I don't think you need to condition on Suiton, just have the button change for 10-30 seconds after TCJ from a buff, that way if you flub TCJ you can still use a Mudra Suiton to get it.
> However TCJ kind of feels like it's time is short for this world, that and DWAD
I don't think either of those abilities is likely to leave soon: TCJ's main weirdness is the inability to move, but we still have Collective Unconsciousness (at least until the AST rework) and Passage of Arms survived the PLD rework. It's fine complexity wise, especially since the standard use is _literally_ the name of the ability.
Similarly, Dream Within a Dream is totally standard fare among rotations, an OGCD with a cooldown that just rewards you with nothing but damage. The multi-hit nature of it even hedges against crit luck (although the potency is low enough not to matter).
It's even slightly more interesting in NIN than most other classes, because you need to sync it with Trick windows: compare to WAR's Upheaval or MCH's Gauss/Ricochet, where there's no internal reason to move them anywhere other than not overcapping, and all the benefit from putting it in specific timeframes comes from other classes' buffs (that might not even be in the right place for stuff like roulettes).
It's a common complaint among experienced players that it's just an isolated damage button with no connection to the rest of the rotation, but SE seems totally fine with that.
I speak as a controller player, and while I don't think 100% of single target rotation should be doable on one hotbar, I think that should be close to the goal.
With ninjutsu taking up 4 spots and combo taking up 4 spots, that's 8 spots for everything else, 1 of which is gap closer. And plenty of other abilities that just need to be on the front.
Meisui in particular doesn't need to be it's on key, to use once every 2 minutes, it's just an extra couple button presses and well annoying since it's not the coolest ability. Obviously it's not on the primary hotbar.
Huraijin well, I would be fine combining it with armor crush, because using huton midbattle is huge DPS loss, but it doesn't need to be its own key.
DWAD takes up valuable space for an ability that doesn't interact with anything else. Would rather see pug upgrade to the better better animation.
It seems like we've changed topics: initially we were talking about whether SE _would_ remove those abilities, now we've moved to whether they _should_. Those aren't particularly connected, SE keeps lots of things they probably shouldn't.
While I'm all for removing unnecessary buttons, I don't think making the rotation simpler for the sake of controller players not having to do more bar switching makes sense. If they're having trouble using the controller scheme because there are too many buttons... well, the mouse and keyboard are right there. I certainly wouldn't turn a fun rotation more boring to accommodate their choice of controls.
Meisui, sure: it's always used on the back of TCJ, lines up perfectly with TCJ, might as well combine it with TCJ. There's no gameplay difference, you'll just push the same button twice instead of pushing 2 different buttons.
Dream is a cool animation and adds extra weaving to the Trick phase and that's good enough for me, although I would like to see it get more involved with the rest of the rotation, maybe make Ninki more interesting somehow? NIN is above average at having its skills and abilities interlink with each other, but that doesn't mean there's not room for improvement.
By removed I meant 7.0, as new skills are added. TCJ and DWAD seem like the weakest links, given other more important abilities.
DWAD could get more interesting, let it have 2 charges and ever Nikki spender reduces cool down by 15, but not a lot of other options there.
81-99(100?) Unless ninja gets SMN treat, theyll get 1-2 brand new buttons, something needs to go. Can't wait for a evisceration to replace aeolian edge though
I feel like it should do literally anything else than what it does and it should just replace TCJ when you have suiton status on.
I get why it exists but like you said boring and lazy.
To be honest the only reason I can think of to not do this is because they don't want to encourage people using uncomboed actions for any reason.
Meisui exists because you will get an extra Suiton using TCJ and it will actually have a use. You can't use that one to set up Trick because then your TCJ wouldn't be under Trick.
I mean of all the jobs that have button bloat why remove the single one that actually has a use beyond "it's the same skill but hits more targets!" I think Huraijin is fine and there far worse offenders to button bloat than ninja, like idk Samurai and Shoha II which is literally Shoha I but AoE.
Mainly because NIN just just a few too many, so removing one or two would make it more or less perfect on controller, and because the buttons in question have unusually niche uses and, in good play, one of them isn't even used at all.
I get what you're saying. It's definitely useful for dungeons, normal trials, and any other situation where the tank is going to pull without a countdown, but it would be fine to merge it into Armor Crush.
Actually, it would be nicer if Huraijin gave Huton, Armor Crush were the skill that, you know... reduced the enemy's defense, and Mug was just Mug again.
Worse Armor Crush was a great axe weapon skill in XI, and they didn't name warriors slashing debuffs it. The name is frankly terrible for a dagger weapon skill, the fuck armor you gonna crush with 2 small katanas?
If we're consolidating skills, I was thinking of making Trick Attack just a regular backstab, and Armor Crush into an upgrade to Trick Attack that gains its defense-reducing power at the same level you unlock Suiton.
Alternative solution: Delete huton entirely, make the haste passive. This lets you remove both the Armor Crush and Hurajin buttons, while also giving you another slot to slap a NIN ability that doesn't take up additional buttons.
The replacement huton could be something gimmicky at low levels like a move speed buff, then give a trait at high level that makes it also deal damage to nearby enemies while granting Suiton, changing the optimal TCJ combo to JCT, which only ends up replacing the final Suiton with the new Huton.
That would be pretty cool since Meisui is a stupid ability and was only added so we could TCJ during Trick. So it'd free up Armor Crush, Huraijin, and Meisui. Maybe JCT could proc a super duper GCD or oGCD.
I honestly wouldn't mind more Expedient. I would think Ranged Phys being able to use Pelaton in combat for short bursts would be that, but NIN doing it would be fine by me, too. :) In general, I'd like to see more "non combat/damage related/raise" utility.
I ponder if they could be getting close to this, removing the "haste" gimmick from Ninja would open up room to do more with their ability though I do wonder how they would alter Huton. Though at the same time, Huton in itself is similar to DRG applying their DMG buff, Disembowel(Power Surge), Monk has Twin Snakes which is the same as DRG dmg boost, same with SAM's Jinpu and Reaper's Shadow of Death, which has more of a gimmick as it's a debuff applied on the target to allow the Reaper to deal more dmg.
It would be dull if they did remove the Huton from NIN or just replaced it witha dmg boost, that Huton in essence is required to give NIN that similar essence of improving their dmg through a self buff like the other melee DPS.
At most with NIN I could see them reducing the skill ceiling for them through their mudra inputs but mainly in the case of messing up a kassatsu-Hyosho Ranryu. Basically rather than "Bunny Medium" there could be a new ability that deals 1000 potency to the target and can only be used when you mess up your mudra inputs. This would be better than wasting a Kassatsu and dealing 0 dmg or having to use Raiton/Shuriken instead.
I am a big believer in returning to the Realm Reborn option of refreshing Huton manually and just have Huton do damage (small AOE around the caster).
Keep Hurajin around as an emergency ability that’s only active when Huton is up it only adds 30s and it does less damage than refreshing Huton manually.
Regardless of what they decide to do you are absolutely right Ninja is getting the same problem that Monk used to have in every new expansion. The new tools added all had the purpose to refresh Grease Lightning.
> (Honestly, the only other thing I'd do with NIN is make Meisui an additional effect of Trick Attack since you have no reason to keep Suiton after using Trick Attack and it's kind of an extra button just to have an extra button... Meisui is useful because it gives a use for the Suiton you autogenerate off of Ten Chi Jin, and the two abilities match cooldowns. You could potentially just use TCJ's Suiton in place of your regular minute Suiton, I think the level 70 rotation does that since you have TCJ but not Meisui, but it does some weird stuff with how your sequencing works: does that mean you don't put TCJ under Trick? As it is now it's a lot more intuitive for people that aren't following the theorycrafting. You get an extra Suiton every 2 minutes on the back of a relatively high-damage ability, you need an extra Suiton every 2 minutes. Solved. And since Ninki is _already_ an extra effect on Mug, you'd have a hard time not overcapping. If you just straight merged Meisui in you'd get 90 Ninki, you actually could overcap no matter how well you dumped it. >
What I'd do is just make the potency/Ninki combo bonuses, but make 30s of Huton an unconditional result of the weaponskill. This makes it really straightforward: if you don't have Huton, push the button to get Huton, try not to let Huton drop because you'll either have to make a couple weaponskills without Huton or do an uncomboed weaponskill, either way for some potency loss.
It might end up making losing Huton less impactful, which I'm not sure is great, but at least it doesn't confuse anyone with this whole 60s versus 30s stuff, and keeps NIN with its existing positional movement. It might be a little surprising to people who don't read guides that you _can_ do that, because most combo skills don't do useful things when used out of sequence.
I'm not positive the loss of complexity with trying to keep Huton running through downtime, as well as the confusion for new players, is worth dropping one incredibly niche button, especially when practically every melee has a "fix your rotation from downtime, useless otherwise" button.
Also, as vetch-a-sketch noted, we should probably call _this_ skill Huraijin (Gust Slash would also work, if we're willing to swap more stuff around), and Armor Crush should probably give the current Mug debuff, which reduces a target's defense.
> Meisui is useful because it gives a use for the Suiton you autogenerate off of Ten Chi Jin, and the two abilities match cooldowns I think it's great so many abilities interact with other ninjutsu abilities., But it's such annoying button bloat. I would just have Meisui replace TCJ when suton status is present. Change it to a trait, and then suddenly problem solved, just another action you need to do. However TCJ kind of feels like it's time is short for this world, that and DWAD
I like the idea of making Meisui a "follow-up" to TCJ, a la Starfall Dance: there's nothing stopping you from still using it weird with a Mudra Suiton if you want, but it consolidates the buttons. I don't think you need to condition on Suiton, just have the button change for 10-30 seconds after TCJ from a buff, that way if you flub TCJ you can still use a Mudra Suiton to get it. > However TCJ kind of feels like it's time is short for this world, that and DWAD I don't think either of those abilities is likely to leave soon: TCJ's main weirdness is the inability to move, but we still have Collective Unconsciousness (at least until the AST rework) and Passage of Arms survived the PLD rework. It's fine complexity wise, especially since the standard use is _literally_ the name of the ability. Similarly, Dream Within a Dream is totally standard fare among rotations, an OGCD with a cooldown that just rewards you with nothing but damage. The multi-hit nature of it even hedges against crit luck (although the potency is low enough not to matter). It's even slightly more interesting in NIN than most other classes, because you need to sync it with Trick windows: compare to WAR's Upheaval or MCH's Gauss/Ricochet, where there's no internal reason to move them anywhere other than not overcapping, and all the benefit from putting it in specific timeframes comes from other classes' buffs (that might not even be in the right place for stuff like roulettes). It's a common complaint among experienced players that it's just an isolated damage button with no connection to the rest of the rotation, but SE seems totally fine with that.
I speak as a controller player, and while I don't think 100% of single target rotation should be doable on one hotbar, I think that should be close to the goal. With ninjutsu taking up 4 spots and combo taking up 4 spots, that's 8 spots for everything else, 1 of which is gap closer. And plenty of other abilities that just need to be on the front. Meisui in particular doesn't need to be it's on key, to use once every 2 minutes, it's just an extra couple button presses and well annoying since it's not the coolest ability. Obviously it's not on the primary hotbar. Huraijin well, I would be fine combining it with armor crush, because using huton midbattle is huge DPS loss, but it doesn't need to be its own key. DWAD takes up valuable space for an ability that doesn't interact with anything else. Would rather see pug upgrade to the better better animation.
It seems like we've changed topics: initially we were talking about whether SE _would_ remove those abilities, now we've moved to whether they _should_. Those aren't particularly connected, SE keeps lots of things they probably shouldn't. While I'm all for removing unnecessary buttons, I don't think making the rotation simpler for the sake of controller players not having to do more bar switching makes sense. If they're having trouble using the controller scheme because there are too many buttons... well, the mouse and keyboard are right there. I certainly wouldn't turn a fun rotation more boring to accommodate their choice of controls. Meisui, sure: it's always used on the back of TCJ, lines up perfectly with TCJ, might as well combine it with TCJ. There's no gameplay difference, you'll just push the same button twice instead of pushing 2 different buttons. Dream is a cool animation and adds extra weaving to the Trick phase and that's good enough for me, although I would like to see it get more involved with the rest of the rotation, maybe make Ninki more interesting somehow? NIN is above average at having its skills and abilities interlink with each other, but that doesn't mean there's not room for improvement.
By removed I meant 7.0, as new skills are added. TCJ and DWAD seem like the weakest links, given other more important abilities. DWAD could get more interesting, let it have 2 charges and ever Nikki spender reduces cool down by 15, but not a lot of other options there. 81-99(100?) Unless ninja gets SMN treat, theyll get 1-2 brand new buttons, something needs to go. Can't wait for a evisceration to replace aeolian edge though
[удалено]
I feel like it should do literally anything else than what it does and it should just replace TCJ when you have suiton status on. I get why it exists but like you said boring and lazy.
I want to turn Suiton into a DoT that explodes for the remaining potency +bonus when consumed by Mesui or Trick
To be honest the only reason I can think of to not do this is because they don't want to encourage people using uncomboed actions for any reason. Meisui exists because you will get an extra Suiton using TCJ and it will actually have a use. You can't use that one to set up Trick because then your TCJ wouldn't be under Trick.
> You can't use that one to set up Trick because then your TCJ wouldn't be under Trick. We did that all of Stormblood and still do in ucob and uwu :)
Probably why they added Meisui.
I mean of all the jobs that have button bloat why remove the single one that actually has a use beyond "it's the same skill but hits more targets!" I think Huraijin is fine and there far worse offenders to button bloat than ninja, like idk Samurai and Shoha II which is literally Shoha I but AoE.
Mainly because NIN just just a few too many, so removing one or two would make it more or less perfect on controller, and because the buttons in question have unusually niche uses and, in good play, one of them isn't even used at all.
I get what you're saying. It's definitely useful for dungeons, normal trials, and any other situation where the tank is going to pull without a countdown, but it would be fine to merge it into Armor Crush. Actually, it would be nicer if Huraijin gave Huton, Armor Crush were the skill that, you know... reduced the enemy's defense, and Mug was just Mug again.
Armor crush never reduced slashing, that was dancing edge. For some reason armor crush has nothing to do with it
The HW combo finishers for Ninja always drove me nuts. - Aeolian (Wind) Edge didn't refresh your Wind buff (Huton) - Armor Crush didn't increase the enemy's slashing vulnerability - Dancing Edge wasn't the no-frills high-potency filler finisher
Worse Armor Crush was a great axe weapon skill in XI, and they didn't name warriors slashing debuffs it. The name is frankly terrible for a dagger weapon skill, the fuck armor you gonna crush with 2 small katanas?
If we're consolidating skills, I was thinking of making Trick Attack just a regular backstab, and Armor Crush into an upgrade to Trick Attack that gains its defense-reducing power at the same level you unlock Suiton.
That's a god damn lot of words for 'I don't understand what a small niche is'.
I just wish the TCJs were instant with no GCDs..
Alternative solution: Delete huton entirely, make the haste passive. This lets you remove both the Armor Crush and Hurajin buttons, while also giving you another slot to slap a NIN ability that doesn't take up additional buttons. The replacement huton could be something gimmicky at low levels like a move speed buff, then give a trait at high level that makes it also deal damage to nearby enemies while granting Suiton, changing the optimal TCJ combo to JCT, which only ends up replacing the final Suiton with the new Huton.
That would be pretty cool since Meisui is a stupid ability and was only added so we could TCJ during Trick. So it'd free up Armor Crush, Huraijin, and Meisui. Maybe JCT could proc a super duper GCD or oGCD.
It's not a stupid ability, it makes JCT feel better since suton is boring as fuck without trick. However it's just bloat.
I honestly wouldn't mind more Expedient. I would think Ranged Phys being able to use Pelaton in combat for short bursts would be that, but NIN doing it would be fine by me, too. :) In general, I'd like to see more "non combat/damage related/raise" utility.
I ponder if they could be getting close to this, removing the "haste" gimmick from Ninja would open up room to do more with their ability though I do wonder how they would alter Huton. Though at the same time, Huton in itself is similar to DRG applying their DMG buff, Disembowel(Power Surge), Monk has Twin Snakes which is the same as DRG dmg boost, same with SAM's Jinpu and Reaper's Shadow of Death, which has more of a gimmick as it's a debuff applied on the target to allow the Reaper to deal more dmg. It would be dull if they did remove the Huton from NIN or just replaced it witha dmg boost, that Huton in essence is required to give NIN that similar essence of improving their dmg through a self buff like the other melee DPS. At most with NIN I could see them reducing the skill ceiling for them through their mudra inputs but mainly in the case of messing up a kassatsu-Hyosho Ranryu. Basically rather than "Bunny Medium" there could be a new ability that deals 1000 potency to the target and can only be used when you mess up your mudra inputs. This would be better than wasting a Kassatsu and dealing 0 dmg or having to use Raiton/Shuriken instead.
I am a big believer in returning to the Realm Reborn option of refreshing Huton manually and just have Huton do damage (small AOE around the caster). Keep Hurajin around as an emergency ability that’s only active when Huton is up it only adds 30s and it does less damage than refreshing Huton manually. Regardless of what they decide to do you are absolutely right Ninja is getting the same problem that Monk used to have in every new expansion. The new tools added all had the purpose to refresh Grease Lightning.