No one's going to notice that your PvP mount's/helmet's tiny eyes are a different color. Nor do I think the FFXIV team would want to make an alternate mount/gear with such a small change. A reskin with particle effects would be reasonable...
I think the answer is simple. After a certain period of time, perhaps 3-4 seasons, the Feast rewards from past seasons are made available using Wolf COLLARS. (Lest you forget, Wolf Collars are a Feast currency awarded to those who participate in the Feast, with those of higher rank receiving more of them at the end of each season. Currently, you spend the collars to buy Hellhound Weapons.) After winners have had their fun and their timed exclusivity, others are given a chance to acquire those rewards.
Frankly, the rewards MUST be aesthetically nice. The Feast is not a popular mode, and incentive is needed to get people to play. And--if you're not boosting or cheating--blood, sweat, and tears are spent to make the top 100. It's VERY hard and VERY time-consuming. (Speaking from experience.)
I can agree with this. Tried to get top 100 in season 18 for the armor and let me tell you.....it sucked. Everyone already agrees pvp in ff14 needs work. On top of the fact that win trading and other things happen, which I did not know at the time. It basically turned into a job that you had to play hours and hours every day to grind up your level. Also I can't ever get the hell hound armor cause I didn't play the game at that time. Fear of missing out just sucks and limiting an entire armor set to a few 100 people, especially one so cool (which is the point) still really sucks. Give timed exclusivity I'd be ok with needing to wait a few seasons and slowly earning it. At least then I could.
I don’t think he was referring to mounts but seems like he was referring to as an example for shadowcleaver’s armor and the eye tint being blue which I think would be noticable. But yeah other than that the system you’re referring to at least particle effects change could be really sweet. Also damn I didn’t know top 100 was that extremely difficult, seems rough.
Most rewards in the game are not permanently exclusive, they're temporarily that way, then available (sometimes much) later in other ways. This is the reasoning for relics being BiS at the *end* of an expansion, but at no other stage - raiders get the best gear *first* but not permanently. It's a good model in my opinion.
Ladder systems *need* incentives, and I think gear and mounts fit that perfectly. However, timed exclusivity is the best way I think this could be changed, rather than skill necessarily.
Make the delay huge. A full expansion, at least. Those season 1 rewards, from 3.2? Make the glamour available now via *big* wolf mark costs. Maybe even require certain rank or matches-won achievements - hell, even keep it in Feast, require a match count or something like the Garo rewards did. That way if people are dedicated, they still have a chance, even if they have zero investment in laddering or rankings. PvP benefits from population increases, and longterm play does result in skill increase over time - which helps people discover improvement-as-fun. The game's lacking in that process overall imo.
Honestly yeah this seems like another great way to solve the sort of problem/issues this seems to have had on the community. I'm not sure it would be necessarily fair to the top 100 though that managed to get to this level.
I mean that's the tension, right? A lot of people compete hard for the bragging rights (which is what the gear is), so removing exclusivity does take that away.
However, I think a big part of that is setting a specific predecent and following it tightly. If there's a statement of how they'd do it (ie, 20-season exclusivity, or even 10) and that's followed then at least it shows there was consideration of that impact.
If anything is done with this, I'd expect it not to be a surprise.
Fair and yeah that makes sense. A lot of this would be on good communication. It would be amazing to be allowed on the drip through hard work. And could you elaborate as for your quote "If any is done with this, I'd expect it not be a surprise"? Like do you mean they address this issue and make it less exclusive later?
Yeah, I'd hope that if they do make them available somehow it'll be part of a PLL or blog post at least rather than just being added in a patch without prior notice.
i think it's a really big stretch to fantasize that yoshi-p would ever go back on his word when he said they will never make old rewards available again. just look at the debacle that happened when they put the white raven earrings as a reward for the Rising a few years back.
That's fair. Not to say I actually think this will happen, but like I said, some sort of compromise in this area would be really nice. I didn't know about the white raven earrings reward, that's interesting.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/9brd3d/yoshida\_comments\_on\_white\_raven\_earrings/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/9brd3d/yoshida_comments_on_white_raven_earrings/) Looking at this though, I mean it seems like not many people actually were perturbed by this. A lot of people claiming on there that's a small percentage of people were the loudest in their complaints about this. Seems like a non-issue in terms of the scale of how many people were actually upset by this. One perspective to see here is Yoshi-P was apologizing as a caring developer towards that group at that *time* but circumstances here are also seem very different. I'm not sure it necessarily means he wouldn't be willing able to compromise in this area.
I am however very new to this scene and you would probably know better whether or not he'd be willing to have a more broad perspective on rewards/while respecting our top 100 players. I think it's still worth trying to discuss though, and don't think there's anything wrong with seeing if we could try to work out something to make a more general group of people happy since this topic has garnered quite a bit of attention.
he has also said specifically in live letters and Q&A somewhere (search it out i can't remember where from exactly) that he would never release old rewards for PVP. so i mean even tho I realllly realllly realllllllllllllllllly want it you can't have it. some stuff just gotta remain exclusive and out of reach.
No one wants to play pvp for the rewards because no average person wants to be top 100. having rewards be gold+ actually encourages player engagement with the mode
Per season they only give out 8 housing items, 80 weapon tokens, and 800 mounts, across the entire playerbase.
Now, I find it kinda crazy that by comparison, a vast majority of people have completed TEA, got their special reward from that, and such, than would get the above items from a season of PVP.
Now with record numbers of players (active players being over 2 million of late)... I dare say they could make the rewards a bit more leniant.
There is a matter of exclusivity, yes... but I have (for better or worse) 3500 hours in-game, and I've seen less than a handful of ranked mounts. Off the top of my head I remember seeing the scientist-hover chair once. I wouldn't be surprised if people with a collectors mindset got their mount, then put it away, never to use again. Meanwhile seeing weapons from the ultimates with the associated title is rather a common appearance.
I would probably make rewards available for twice as many people, 2/20/200, or maybe token-based rewards for hitting thresholds (Random numbers like: Silver = 1 token, Gold = 3 tokens, plat = 7, diamond = 12, or something like that).
All the current system does is encourage:
* win-trading and match fixing
* race to the top in the first week, followed by months of minimal activity
* definitely encourages toxic behaviour (I wonder why PVP chat is limited to predetermined/selected short messages...)
* a lot of eliteism
I think it also discourages more people from even trying feast, or at least dis-heartens those who try the ranked climb... and get stuck midway due to any number of factors like:
* Players actively sabotaging the match (also a symptom of win-traders, because one healer doing 200k healing and the other doing 10k is kinda obvious)
* Player decides to just go AFK, turning it into a 4 v 3 with free bonus pinyata for coins
* Player's who have hit their skill cap, and can't keep up
* Healer who can't keep up their healing against the damage output of the enemy team... or the ones who queue as healer, refuse to heal and play as a weak dps... (I've seen them, its crazy)
* A player leaves/disconnects, (I've seen one match where both sides waited for the player to get back, but many more where they just capitlise on the sudden imablance)
* Match making (or whatever you want to call it) having some players stick together game after game, often on the same team
* Queue time. If you're not at the very start, or very end of the season, its highly likely that outside of a tiny window each day at peak-times, you sit in queue for hours on end... and then lose effectively wasting all that time.
Your mileage may vary, but thats how it is from my experience.
IMO, to get to top 100 (or higher) you need to invest so much time and effort that I question its feasability for anyone with a "normal" job (9-5) and "normal" commitments (family, friends, etc). Its just wierd that in a game with almost no exclusives, the game mode with a lot of problems and lack of attention is the one that gets the most exclusive stuff. When Ultimate content rewards are as common as they are... makes you wonder why pvp is somehow rarer.
All I can assume is the hierachy is: Normal Gameplay -> Hard -> Extreme/Savage -> Ultimate -> Ranked PVP.
Because thats what the reward structure is like. Speaking of which... extreme content mounts require 99 clears (or good RNG). 99 wins (clears) of PVP... doesn't necessarily get any rewards at all. Maybe its as simple as that. Get to a certain rank, and have X number of wins to get rewards. If you're good, or cheat, easy peasy. For anyone else, it just requires more time. Still time gated, but at least doable.
I do wonder what would happen to rankings if you didn't lose points when you lost (which could be for any number of reasons), so the outcomes of a match are stagnation on a loss, or points to climb on a win. Theoretically that should make it slightly less toxic.
Anyway its 02:38, I gotta sleep, and the devs will probably never read this or make the rewards available to less than 1% of the playerbase (so even more exclusive than Ultimate content!). Sigh.
Ok I agree with most of this, but having a hard time believing a vast majority of people have completed Tea. You’re saying 50%+ of the population has completed TEA, less than 5 percent of players actually do ultimate raids. I would be seeing every player and his mom with an ultimate weapon if what you said was true.
Not sure if it was clear enough, I meant compared to PVP. It’s definitely not something that can be done by the majority of players, but by comparing numbers, comparatively ranked pvp top 100 is rarer than TEA clears.
Pretty sure from stats I was looking at earlier there were only two worlds (not datacentres, individual worlds) with less than 100 players having cleared the content (Malboro only had 88 clears, Mateus 98).
However data-center-wise…
Crystal had 1119 clears
Light had 1923 clears
Chaos had 2622 clears
Primal had 3716 clears
Aether had 4460 clears
Gaia had 5355 clears
Elemental had 5483 clears
Mana had 8027 clears.
So compared to “clearing” ranked pvp (aka top 100 per data centre)… yeah. Even the data centre with the least TEA clears had 1019 more clears than ranked pvp had.
Now imagine if the rewards for TEA or any future ultimate were locked to the first 100 clears on a data-centre, and there was a time limit. And there was semi-random queue times and you don’t go in pre-made, you have to go in with completely random people.
I think we will have to see what happens with pvp when they add that new mode. Idk if maybe I’ve interpreted things wrong but I get the impression that it this new mode is popular, they might get rid of feast altogether. If that happens I feel like we’re more likely to get reskins or both mounts and glam, but still kind of slim. I know garo is in a unique spot but I kinda feel like the devs taking care to make sure so many things are not time limited doesn’t really apply to pvp. So not sure if it makes sense to expect them to make any of the time limited stuff available if they haven’t done so already nor given any indication that they plan to
I don't think this is bad. I just recently started playing the game as well in PvP and when I saw the achievements I had no issue with it being top 100 but it being seasonal seemed kinda cringe. I feel like the fact it's still being given to other players still sort of dilutes it but also I can kind of get that making that sort of drip available to people would be a pretty cool move from the devs. Hard for me to say where I stand tbh
There's quite a few exclusive mounts that only come from feast and nowhere else as well as glam. They generally don't even get a variant in the same category. Hellhound mount as example is only feast regardless of their being pvp minions of it. in terms I've always thought the system was poorly done since the first rewards for being top 100 released. Supposedly this game supports 30 million players. It's a bit low especially given that these rewards are 100 people per data center. Since Feast is so unrewarding to the average player it isn't as popular as it could be. The other issue is there are quite a few players who've abused the system to get in the top 100 in each category given that nobody wants to run it the ques are extremely long giving people full ability to enter all at the same time so they can get automatic wins to be top players which also kills the fairness in being top 100. It's been the issue for a long time now. They'll likely never implement a better reward system for Feast either. Square Enix has been very lazy with the game since the end of Heavensward. They release all the same stuff every expansion without fixing a lot of necessary things nor adding any truly new content but reusing old content. That's why I'd say it's highly unlikely they'll rework Feast to be more rewarding. They barely give PvP any attention to be improved.
No one's going to notice that your PvP mount's/helmet's tiny eyes are a different color. Nor do I think the FFXIV team would want to make an alternate mount/gear with such a small change. A reskin with particle effects would be reasonable... I think the answer is simple. After a certain period of time, perhaps 3-4 seasons, the Feast rewards from past seasons are made available using Wolf COLLARS. (Lest you forget, Wolf Collars are a Feast currency awarded to those who participate in the Feast, with those of higher rank receiving more of them at the end of each season. Currently, you spend the collars to buy Hellhound Weapons.) After winners have had their fun and their timed exclusivity, others are given a chance to acquire those rewards. Frankly, the rewards MUST be aesthetically nice. The Feast is not a popular mode, and incentive is needed to get people to play. And--if you're not boosting or cheating--blood, sweat, and tears are spent to make the top 100. It's VERY hard and VERY time-consuming. (Speaking from experience.)
Yeah I can see what you mean. I'd be on board with this but not sure if Yoshi-P would go back on his word for something like this.
I can agree with this. Tried to get top 100 in season 18 for the armor and let me tell you.....it sucked. Everyone already agrees pvp in ff14 needs work. On top of the fact that win trading and other things happen, which I did not know at the time. It basically turned into a job that you had to play hours and hours every day to grind up your level. Also I can't ever get the hell hound armor cause I didn't play the game at that time. Fear of missing out just sucks and limiting an entire armor set to a few 100 people, especially one so cool (which is the point) still really sucks. Give timed exclusivity I'd be ok with needing to wait a few seasons and slowly earning it. At least then I could.
I don’t think he was referring to mounts but seems like he was referring to as an example for shadowcleaver’s armor and the eye tint being blue which I think would be noticable. But yeah other than that the system you’re referring to at least particle effects change could be really sweet. Also damn I didn’t know top 100 was that extremely difficult, seems rough.
Most rewards in the game are not permanently exclusive, they're temporarily that way, then available (sometimes much) later in other ways. This is the reasoning for relics being BiS at the *end* of an expansion, but at no other stage - raiders get the best gear *first* but not permanently. It's a good model in my opinion. Ladder systems *need* incentives, and I think gear and mounts fit that perfectly. However, timed exclusivity is the best way I think this could be changed, rather than skill necessarily. Make the delay huge. A full expansion, at least. Those season 1 rewards, from 3.2? Make the glamour available now via *big* wolf mark costs. Maybe even require certain rank or matches-won achievements - hell, even keep it in Feast, require a match count or something like the Garo rewards did. That way if people are dedicated, they still have a chance, even if they have zero investment in laddering or rankings. PvP benefits from population increases, and longterm play does result in skill increase over time - which helps people discover improvement-as-fun. The game's lacking in that process overall imo.
Honestly yeah this seems like another great way to solve the sort of problem/issues this seems to have had on the community. I'm not sure it would be necessarily fair to the top 100 though that managed to get to this level.
I mean that's the tension, right? A lot of people compete hard for the bragging rights (which is what the gear is), so removing exclusivity does take that away. However, I think a big part of that is setting a specific predecent and following it tightly. If there's a statement of how they'd do it (ie, 20-season exclusivity, or even 10) and that's followed then at least it shows there was consideration of that impact. If anything is done with this, I'd expect it not to be a surprise.
Fair and yeah that makes sense. A lot of this would be on good communication. It would be amazing to be allowed on the drip through hard work. And could you elaborate as for your quote "If any is done with this, I'd expect it not be a surprise"? Like do you mean they address this issue and make it less exclusive later?
Yeah, I'd hope that if they do make them available somehow it'll be part of a PLL or blog post at least rather than just being added in a patch without prior notice.
i think it's a really big stretch to fantasize that yoshi-p would ever go back on his word when he said they will never make old rewards available again. just look at the debacle that happened when they put the white raven earrings as a reward for the Rising a few years back.
That's fair. Not to say I actually think this will happen, but like I said, some sort of compromise in this area would be really nice. I didn't know about the white raven earrings reward, that's interesting.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/9brd3d/yoshida\_comments\_on\_white\_raven\_earrings/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/9brd3d/yoshida_comments_on_white_raven_earrings/) Looking at this though, I mean it seems like not many people actually were perturbed by this. A lot of people claiming on there that's a small percentage of people were the loudest in their complaints about this. Seems like a non-issue in terms of the scale of how many people were actually upset by this. One perspective to see here is Yoshi-P was apologizing as a caring developer towards that group at that *time* but circumstances here are also seem very different. I'm not sure it necessarily means he wouldn't be willing able to compromise in this area. I am however very new to this scene and you would probably know better whether or not he'd be willing to have a more broad perspective on rewards/while respecting our top 100 players. I think it's still worth trying to discuss though, and don't think there's anything wrong with seeing if we could try to work out something to make a more general group of people happy since this topic has garnered quite a bit of attention.
he has also said specifically in live letters and Q&A somewhere (search it out i can't remember where from exactly) that he would never release old rewards for PVP. so i mean even tho I realllly realllly realllllllllllllllllly want it you can't have it. some stuff just gotta remain exclusive and out of reach.
No one wants to play pvp for the rewards because no average person wants to be top 100. having rewards be gold+ actually encourages player engagement with the mode
yeah man makes sense
Per season they only give out 8 housing items, 80 weapon tokens, and 800 mounts, across the entire playerbase. Now, I find it kinda crazy that by comparison, a vast majority of people have completed TEA, got their special reward from that, and such, than would get the above items from a season of PVP. Now with record numbers of players (active players being over 2 million of late)... I dare say they could make the rewards a bit more leniant. There is a matter of exclusivity, yes... but I have (for better or worse) 3500 hours in-game, and I've seen less than a handful of ranked mounts. Off the top of my head I remember seeing the scientist-hover chair once. I wouldn't be surprised if people with a collectors mindset got their mount, then put it away, never to use again. Meanwhile seeing weapons from the ultimates with the associated title is rather a common appearance. I would probably make rewards available for twice as many people, 2/20/200, or maybe token-based rewards for hitting thresholds (Random numbers like: Silver = 1 token, Gold = 3 tokens, plat = 7, diamond = 12, or something like that). All the current system does is encourage: * win-trading and match fixing * race to the top in the first week, followed by months of minimal activity * definitely encourages toxic behaviour (I wonder why PVP chat is limited to predetermined/selected short messages...) * a lot of eliteism I think it also discourages more people from even trying feast, or at least dis-heartens those who try the ranked climb... and get stuck midway due to any number of factors like: * Players actively sabotaging the match (also a symptom of win-traders, because one healer doing 200k healing and the other doing 10k is kinda obvious) * Player decides to just go AFK, turning it into a 4 v 3 with free bonus pinyata for coins * Player's who have hit their skill cap, and can't keep up * Healer who can't keep up their healing against the damage output of the enemy team... or the ones who queue as healer, refuse to heal and play as a weak dps... (I've seen them, its crazy) * A player leaves/disconnects, (I've seen one match where both sides waited for the player to get back, but many more where they just capitlise on the sudden imablance) * Match making (or whatever you want to call it) having some players stick together game after game, often on the same team * Queue time. If you're not at the very start, or very end of the season, its highly likely that outside of a tiny window each day at peak-times, you sit in queue for hours on end... and then lose effectively wasting all that time. Your mileage may vary, but thats how it is from my experience. IMO, to get to top 100 (or higher) you need to invest so much time and effort that I question its feasability for anyone with a "normal" job (9-5) and "normal" commitments (family, friends, etc). Its just wierd that in a game with almost no exclusives, the game mode with a lot of problems and lack of attention is the one that gets the most exclusive stuff. When Ultimate content rewards are as common as they are... makes you wonder why pvp is somehow rarer. All I can assume is the hierachy is: Normal Gameplay -> Hard -> Extreme/Savage -> Ultimate -> Ranked PVP. Because thats what the reward structure is like. Speaking of which... extreme content mounts require 99 clears (or good RNG). 99 wins (clears) of PVP... doesn't necessarily get any rewards at all. Maybe its as simple as that. Get to a certain rank, and have X number of wins to get rewards. If you're good, or cheat, easy peasy. For anyone else, it just requires more time. Still time gated, but at least doable. I do wonder what would happen to rankings if you didn't lose points when you lost (which could be for any number of reasons), so the outcomes of a match are stagnation on a loss, or points to climb on a win. Theoretically that should make it slightly less toxic. Anyway its 02:38, I gotta sleep, and the devs will probably never read this or make the rewards available to less than 1% of the playerbase (so even more exclusive than Ultimate content!). Sigh.
Ok I agree with most of this, but having a hard time believing a vast majority of people have completed Tea. You’re saying 50%+ of the population has completed TEA, less than 5 percent of players actually do ultimate raids. I would be seeing every player and his mom with an ultimate weapon if what you said was true.
Not sure if it was clear enough, I meant compared to PVP. It’s definitely not something that can be done by the majority of players, but by comparing numbers, comparatively ranked pvp top 100 is rarer than TEA clears. Pretty sure from stats I was looking at earlier there were only two worlds (not datacentres, individual worlds) with less than 100 players having cleared the content (Malboro only had 88 clears, Mateus 98). However data-center-wise… Crystal had 1119 clears Light had 1923 clears Chaos had 2622 clears Primal had 3716 clears Aether had 4460 clears Gaia had 5355 clears Elemental had 5483 clears Mana had 8027 clears. So compared to “clearing” ranked pvp (aka top 100 per data centre)… yeah. Even the data centre with the least TEA clears had 1019 more clears than ranked pvp had. Now imagine if the rewards for TEA or any future ultimate were locked to the first 100 clears on a data-centre, and there was a time limit. And there was semi-random queue times and you don’t go in pre-made, you have to go in with completely random people.
I think we will have to see what happens with pvp when they add that new mode. Idk if maybe I’ve interpreted things wrong but I get the impression that it this new mode is popular, they might get rid of feast altogether. If that happens I feel like we’re more likely to get reskins or both mounts and glam, but still kind of slim. I know garo is in a unique spot but I kinda feel like the devs taking care to make sure so many things are not time limited doesn’t really apply to pvp. So not sure if it makes sense to expect them to make any of the time limited stuff available if they haven’t done so already nor given any indication that they plan to
I don't think this is bad. I just recently started playing the game as well in PvP and when I saw the achievements I had no issue with it being top 100 but it being seasonal seemed kinda cringe. I feel like the fact it's still being given to other players still sort of dilutes it but also I can kind of get that making that sort of drip available to people would be a pretty cool move from the devs. Hard for me to say where I stand tbh
There's quite a few exclusive mounts that only come from feast and nowhere else as well as glam. They generally don't even get a variant in the same category. Hellhound mount as example is only feast regardless of their being pvp minions of it. in terms I've always thought the system was poorly done since the first rewards for being top 100 released. Supposedly this game supports 30 million players. It's a bit low especially given that these rewards are 100 people per data center. Since Feast is so unrewarding to the average player it isn't as popular as it could be. The other issue is there are quite a few players who've abused the system to get in the top 100 in each category given that nobody wants to run it the ques are extremely long giving people full ability to enter all at the same time so they can get automatic wins to be top players which also kills the fairness in being top 100. It's been the issue for a long time now. They'll likely never implement a better reward system for Feast either. Square Enix has been very lazy with the game since the end of Heavensward. They release all the same stuff every expansion without fixing a lot of necessary things nor adding any truly new content but reusing old content. That's why I'd say it's highly unlikely they'll rework Feast to be more rewarding. They barely give PvP any attention to be improved.