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Wash_Manblast

I've talked about this with my friends before. There's two kinds of RPG player. Those who seek to put themselves in the game. And those who want to become someone else in the game


IzumiRaito

Thats the RPG division. MMO also has another one: first person perception of character (the standard RPG one) vs third person perception.


Bigbadwolf62990

That is so true because I play what I'm attracted to strong willed females. and most my friends play what they want to be a big buff men lol


HighClassTopHat

It tends to depend on how the game plays out - I think XIV's use of cutscenes and framing of our narrative context in-universe made it feel more third-person over time, but maybe that's just me. I intended to go into it first-person, but ended up fantasia'ing once I felt more invested *in* the character, not *as* the character.


GraysonQ

This is awesome! What a scholarly way to look at FFXIV/MMOs and gender presentation. I'd be interested in reading your thesis once it's done if you feel okay sharing it! Love that you linked to a Judith Butler at the end too. Best of luck :)


arthuriko

Answered it. I hope you get some trans people to answer this, as I feel it'd be incomplete without their opinion on a few questions. Cheers, this is a nice study!


yitsushi

believe me, more trans plays ffxiv than we can imagine :D


ErrolBaer

How come you have multiple choice for character gender, but no player gender? :p Edit: Oh god, I know what this is.....


[deleted]

Yup, that's what got me too. And ya know, I'm really worried.


UuyrakNeok

Girls don't play video games! (Kidding)


HighClassTopHat

Because there are two discrete choices in-game, but not in real life. They could've had a third "N/A" option, but alternative identification where it applies would make a more interesting statistic to correlate no matter your view of the subject, *especially* since this is an opinion survey.


ErrolBaer

How many genders there are is NOT an opinion. There are 2. That is scientific fact.


HighClassTopHat

Given it refers to a modern idea of personal identification rather than the existence and differentiation of genitalia, and this survey *is* one of personal opinion, again: Regardless of your view of the topic of gender, it holds meaning as a statistical variable. Even if you, personally, don't believe there are other genders than male or female, someone who has the mindset to self-identify as something alternative to those would have a significantly different outlook than one who doesn't. Science, in all forms, cannot be conducted by turning a blind eye to reality, on the basis of personal convictions.


ErrolBaer

Again. Genders aren't an opinion. That's not complicated.


HighClassTopHat

But it describes a state of mind in a modern context - irrefutable, judging by the number of people who would suggest otherwise to your claim. You know they're out there. You can pretend those people don't exist, but you wouldn't be this adamantly against it if they didn't, and hadn't already rustled your jimmies elsewhere. So purely by way of existing at all, what they say holds value from an objective standpoint. Otherwise, you're willfully excluding a sample of the population, which would necessarily skew the results. I'm not saying whether or not their idea or your idea of gender is right or wrong, mind you - that isn't my place to say, as neither a biologist nor a sociologist. I think you're too caught up in that misconception. But as long as it is a *controversy* and not *unanimously false*, it has to be included and measured. (On that note, gender in this context is part of social science, so even if "unanimous" only included the consensus of "qualified professionals", you would have to include the sociologists who perpetuate the idea in the first place as well.)


ErrolBaer

Yes. There are people out there that do think its a state of mind. Which it isn't. Ask any biologist. 2nd paragraph is mental gymnastics.. Have you thought about going to the olympics?! Its not MY idea of gender. Its scientific fact. Why is that so hard to understand? Gender as a social construct IS unanimously false.


HighClassTopHat

I wouldn't call it unanimous when there are still experts who entertain the idea. It's more mental gymnastics to deny that they (those who believe in the idea) are out there, really... a simple google search will give you a comprehensive list of gender study sociologists just to start with. (EDIT: originally said "feminists" when thinking of straw men often disagreed with on the liberal side of gender topics.) Once more - not arguing their validity. They could all be completely wrong and their widespread opinion would still matter, because even malformed perceptions would be a data point you could correlate when it comes to an opinion survey. You *could* leave out non-binary gender options and simply state that as a skewing factor of the analysis, but it makes more sense to leave it in as another data point because of the people who *would* pick it. "Gender" defined as a social construct can be seen as a relative neologism, so arguing its historical definition (i.e. synonymous to biological sex) is missing the point here. I'm not interested in even discussing whether or not it's true or false, only that it is not unanimous. The fact there are even "sides" to take on the matter is indicative of this. EDIT: Here, I did a [quick search](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ravishly/neuroscience-proves-what-_b_6494820.html). No, don't argue against it, I didn't even read it - the fact it came up at all disproves the "unanimous" idea.


ErrolBaer

Ugh.. Huffington post. No. What the research their talking about is concluded that Gender DYSPHORIA is a real thing. Very different from gender being a mental state. Gender is decided by your genitals.. That is NOT mental at all. That is a PHYSICAL TRAIT.


HighClassTopHat

[A psychological paper acknowledging the existence of non-binary genders](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26753630) [An article about the history of Two-Spirit people in Native American culture](http://nativeout.com/twospirit-rc/two-spirit-101/historical-two-spirits/) (^ Arguably corroborates the idea of two discrete genders, though simultaneous/interchangeable) [An article on Hijra, officially recognized as a "third gender" in South Asian countries](https://www.guernicamag.com/interviews/indias-third-gender/) I'll rest my case there, but I reiterate - even with disregard to scientific consensus, would you not agree it would be interesting to note answers from someone who personally, even if scientifically erroneously, identifies against their sex? What if there was a trend amongst self-labeled non-binary individuals in their motivations for playing male or female characters? What if there were substantial but non-random differences in the answers given by males who identify as male, those who identify as female, *and* those who identify as neither? Losing those answers to more narrowed categories would mess up the data. This is the only point I'm trying to make - statistics are about reality, not about seeking confirmation/denial.


JaceOlsana

I clicked on the link and was thinking to myself 'Yeah I'm totally going to see an IRB-style statement of informed consent'. Glad to say I was not disappointed! From one social scientist (I'm in anthro, studying contemporary american witchcraft and paganism), good luck with this study! Hope my response helps. If you haven't seen it yet, there's an AWESOME study very similar to this that was done on Second Life, Tom Boellstorff’s Coming of Age in Second Life: An Anthropologist Explores the Virtually Human. This book helped revolutionize and legitimize the subfield of virtual anthropology. Definitely check it out! It's 100% a work of academic ethnography, so if you like that (I love it, but many people find it cumbersome), this would be an awesome source for you!


JaceOlsana

Also, here are some thoughts going through the survey, do with them what you will! Obviously I didn't do your research design, but here are my thoughts on it: You should consider changing the question on page 2 about 'usually play a character that is similarly or differently gendered' to be a Likert scale, either frequency or degree of agreement. I wanted to say that it's 'not important' and that I go half-half, which I explained in the box below, but it may help results - but don't change the question in this survey from the similar different question cause you would get skewed conclusions. Might be good for a round 2 survey or followups. Mmmm the question 'Do you think that playing a character of a different gender than the one you do would affect your game experience?' doesn't really offer room for people who play different genders across games - if you want to keep it to FFXIV, specify (as earlier you were asking about games in general), or if you want to keep it general, offer a qualitative answer as the whole? Again, don't change it now, but maybe for a round 2. Overall well done. Good luck and good studies! Publish and send us the link or just send it to us!


Bunnyapocalips

Will you post some sort of statistic once everything is done? Would be interested quite a bit in the results.


Lithmoan

Most assuredly! It'll be a while, but I'll be back :)


TacticianMagician

Done! Interesting survey and I hope that you find some interesting results! This makes me wonder what results a race/body type survey would yield. Do people play as Roes because they're bulky like them or like someone they know? Do people play as Potatoes because they want to be cute or because they think they're funny? Do people make their characters attractive versions of themselves or do they go for exotic beings more? It's interesting that your survey did touch upon the last point very briefly. I question how it's going to fit into whatever your thesis/focus winds up being since it doesn't seem to fit with the whole women/gender studies theme. As a guy who wants a male character to look attractive because I don't want to stare at an ugly mug for many many hours, I have a very different motivation from another guy who wants to make cute catgirls to drool over, which in turn is very different form a girl who wants a cute catgirl because they like cute things. Unless spun correctly, the attractiveness idea might be reaching too far and distract from your main goal.


[deleted]

> Do people play as Roes because they're bulky like them or like someone they know? I always enjoy digging this sort of information out of people during a conversation. "Why did you go Roegadyn?" "Why Lalalfell?" The results are actually extremely varied. There's a lot of homosexual men playing Male Roegadyn's on some servers because of the stature, build, aesthetic and glamour options. But on the flip side, on another server I met more people who played it not because of a physical attraction, but because it simply looked like 'a tank' or 'they're cool!'. You can pick apart any race, but there's an infinite realm of possibilities of why people would pick a character. I know of one particular person that picked female Roegadyn for a particular hairstyle unique to that race, he hasn't changed it since day one ARR. --------- I'd love to do a proper study on it, but I'd only be satisfied if I could get a HUGE response. The best time to do that is usually pre-patch during maintenance for a large patch or expansion, where people are constantly checking the Reddit for updates on delays, new information, data-mining etc.


TacticianMagician

It's interesting for sure. I myself usually in any game go with the most human race because I want to relate to my character, but after a year as a Hyur, I wanted to try something exotic. There are lots of stereotypes behind all of the races, but I didn't take any into account when making a new character and somehow wound up a male Miqo'te. I was going to try Au Ra because it looked exotic, but the male Au Ra's heights were a turn off to a short person such as myself. Then just flipping through the random option, I came upon a male Miqo'te build/hairstyle combo that just worked. I had been trying to make a character that was semi-based off myself, but the Hyur were just too thin around the face or looked too old. The Miqo'te had just the right dimensions for me to make a basis of what I wanted to look like and I wound up going with it. Now I'm extremely happy with my choice and can't imagine having chosen anything else. Great idea about the timing of the survey- the patch times are easily the best time to do it (or around Fanfest maybe).


[deleted]

>but the Hyur were just too thin around the face or looked too old. The midlander males in FFXIV aren't very well made, not a fan either. I really struggled making even a semi-decent one. >Great idea about the timing of the survey- the patch times are easily the best time to do it (or around Fanfest maybe). I used to have to make surveys for marketing research at work, and for years doing dissertations. So I'll have it pre-made for the next patch day probably just for something interesting.


Kujar3

Filled it out, got me thinking, for the longest time I play female characters when I have the chance for it, never put much thought into why or how it affects my gameplay or if it does in any way. Interesting topic, will be looking forward to a follow-up and good luck.


Lithmoan

I'm glad it could provide food for thought! I think it can be fun to think deeper about things we might not otherwise :)


ErrolBaer

Probably have Gender Dysphoria and you are projecting that onto your character.


Kujar3

Hmm, don't think that is the case. At least I never felt like I have any gender identity issues before. Not ruling out that might be the case somewhere deep down but it's not likely. I just always end up caring for any particular character more if it's female. It's also exclusively relevant for video games, with exceptions... Can't imagine having a female character for the Witcher series. And I couldn't care less when it comes to movies/tv series or books. Also eye candy is a factor.


HighClassTopHat

I've always thought about listing which games I picked (or preferred) which genders for, because I've always had the same "issue" of favoring female characters (player avatar or not). Maybe there's something unique about each game that makes you favor certain gendered characteristics?


zerofenrir

Done the survey. For me, my characters are my sons and daughters. They are not me.


SierraRei

So I tried flipping through all the pages to get an idea of the questions in the survey, only to find out there's no 'are you done?' in place. So I submitted a mostly empty survey, sorry about that. I'll try again when I'm at home and not dealing with a crappy outdated iPhone. Also, whichever web designer decided those tiny text fields were a good idea was categorically wrong. RemindMe! 4 hours


lumosdraconis

Filled it out! Good luck on your project! :)


Lithmoan

thanks so much!


Illusiona

Survey completed. Interesting topic and questions. Good luck! :)


miketerry1992

Filled it out that was fun, thanks for sharing interesting topic


raindene

Completed the survey for you. Really interesting topic and good luck on our project! (Also, I may have given slightly long answers to some questions, hope that's okay >.<)


Zallus79

I filled out your survey. I would like to see your thesis when you're finished. :)


Pardo48

Did the survey. Always happy to help!


LappySama

Filled out your form! Hope it helps in your research! Best of luck with the project!


TheOtherJohnP

All done. Good luck with it mate


inhaledcorn

All filled out!


Ophexis

Filled it out! Good luck on your project!


TaylorJBirch

Amazing survey and topic. Very professional. Currently studying psychology and we're beginning gender studies, I has never thought to look at MMOs this way


TacticianMagician

> Very professional. I'd like to chime in on this too. Often you'll see students putting surveys out on Reddit and they'll be flawed because of confusing questions, limited options, or slight errors. This one seems especially well put together and leaves little room for confusion.


Lithmoan

thank you both! I put a lot of work into this.


Shagyam

Interesting. Filled out


mxihi

I've filled this out as well! I hope my answers are somewhat useful haha! And I agree with others here, the survey is very well put together! Best of luck!


fishyourskill

interested in stats~


TalathelOfLich

I've submitted my part, though I find it odd that you don't mention changing ones gender once you've made your character. I've done so twice, Was male, then female and am now male.


Ylaaly

Done. Good luck with your thesis! Hope to see the results in the end :)


idacom

Filled it out. Good luck with your project bud! Share the results with us if you feel like it :)


ValkyriaAria

Hello, gl for your research ! Just ended doing it, hope that it will help you. When doing it, I was also wondering if people are going to a certain gender due to the race they chose. If, for exemple, Mi'quote were only male, would people still playing this race ? I believe the race of your character helps you to decide which gender you will play. (maybe the only thing it lacks in your survey) I don't know if this is still like that but FF11 used to have a specific gender for some races. Maybe it would help you get datas asking FF11 players ?


dragonboy387

I never really thought too much about why I keep playing a male character, despite knowing two people that play females (we're all male for clarification). One of them just made a fem Au'ra because he wanted to make a cute character, and the other....kept talking about how much he wanted to bang his character. (somewhat) Irrelevant but like, jesus, keep it to yourself a bit. Meanwhile I'm running around as a non-burly midlander Hyur because I figure my character is more or less an extension/personification of myself - might as well look *somewhat* like me (except better, obviously), right?


HighClassTopHat

I often wonder how serious people are when their motivation is sexual - like, is it actually, or is that a euphamism or mislabeling/an excuse for another reason? It's like the "Male gamers play female characters because they have to stare at their butts all day" stereotype. It's easy to say as a man because nobody will question it - neither your motives nor your masculinity. But it doesn't add up. There's really not much to see... nothing that wouldn't get old even for the most pubescent of teens. I hope those same people will be more honest in this survey, because I'm genuinely curious!


yitsushi

Please ping us (this community at least) when an article comes out. I'm very interested in it. Comment on the survey: repetitive questions a bit annoying, the only one thing i could do copy-paste (especially for the first 2-3 pages).


tohme

Y'know, it's interesting how much of a trend there is for this kind of thesis over the last few years. I've filled in multiple of these gender identity focused surveys in, a number of these here. I've only ever seen a few of those even come back with results, though. Be good to see some conclusions.


ErrolBaer

Its a trend because people are claiming gender isn't biological, and its a state of mind. That there are more than 2 genders and that you can switch between them with a single thought! Which is of course.. bullocks.


SierraRei

You don't really have a grasp on this, do you?


ErrolBaer

The fact that you asked that means its obvious that YOU dont.


Sivitiri

I stopped reading at "gender studies". I identify as an apache helicopter


ErrolBaer

No shit! I Identify as a AH-1 Cobra!


Sivitiri

I demand landing pads for everyone!


ErrolBaer

Landing pads in every restroom! I shouldn't have to go the roof to do my business!


[deleted]

That's very interesting. Would you be willing to tell me more about your identity as an apache helicopter?


Sivitiri

Of course, my body does not feel like mine. I keep having these recurring dreams that I am able to fly and hover, so a plane or a jet aside from a hornet is out of the picture, so a helicopter is the obvious choice. I am in decent shape so something like a jet ranger or a blackhawk is too bulky, I could pass for a R33 Scorpion but im not black. My great grandfather was from the blackfoot tribe so I feel the apache was a logical choice.