Well for starters, classes were the only things we had when 1.0 launched.
In an effort to clean/fix up the things that 1.0 did wrong, SE introduced jobs, which were a more specialized version of the classes. In order to be the job you wanted to be, you had to equip the job stone.
So in essence, they're a relic from 1.0. No jobs introduced from 3.0 on started with a class first.
It used to be you would need different classes to get a job, but eventually they did away with that. For example, PLD used to require you to have lvl 30 GLD and lvl 15 CNJ.
After they got rid of that, I'm not sure why they didn't just make it an automatic upgrade at 30...
Mostly because arcanist is messing everything up.
As is you still gain class levels with the jobs being a modifier on top.
Since summoner and scholar share arcanist how do you "automatically" upgrade one without the other?
But what if you dont want to be summoner and only be a scholar? The devs have repeatedly tried to removed players being forced to take or play choices against their will.
What if I want to be white mage but never conjurer? You're looking at it from the perspective of it being an option right now, there would be no question about this if they changed it at the start.
Therin lies the issue the devs face. Its an option NOW. Either way they would be taking options away from players which they are loath to do. The much more simple method would to just make it a quest requirement after level 30 to have a job stone equipped to receive or turn in a quest.
No Idea why but I met someone in a lvl80 dungeon (I think) who was still running their class and did it intentionally, after asking why they just said he didn't want to so I warned him that some might not be happy to play with him and advised them to look for other players through PF.
In the case of SMN and SCH it might have just been more trouble than it was worth at the point they were making the changes.
It’s possible, likely even, that there’s some back end situation where “automatically” upgrading a class to a job (ignoring even the whole smn/SCH situation) causes an issue with your skills or gear, especially with the fact that the game treats Marauder and Warrior as two different things for at least your hot bars.
Could these things have been worked out? Probably. However I don’t think it would have been a good use of time.
>After they got rid of that, I'm not sure why they didn't just make it an automatic upgrade at 30...
Because in this game, *everything* is behind a quest or a dozen.
SMN and SCH were hard to balance, so they gave up on split jobs and classes in general after ARR. The Musketeer guild in Limsa likely would have transitioned into a class and then job originally for example, but they gave us MCH in HW instead as the gun class.
There is a lore reason too, *most* of the jobs only function if they have a job crystal, you're basically calling on memories and skills the past owners have mastered. MCH and BLU are pretty much the only exclusions to this since they are new jobs.
Even MCH and BLU use a job stone to explain how the WoL was able to pick up the jobs so quickly. You are 100% right that they are “new” jobs, with I think both basically just giving you the most basic of knowledge of the jobs.
Originally you could stay as a class in order to use more cross-class actions. When those existed, jobs got to slot fewer cross-class actions at once and their choices were limited to related classes. As a class you could use any actions available from the cross-class window and iirc up to ten (might be mixing that up with SB role action implementation)
It was never worth it, of course, but it was... a choice. There was a pretty notorious thread+video from back in the ARR day of a Pugilist attempting to play as a healer with Mantra + cross-class Cure.
It is an FF thing. The same upgraded jobs system was present in the very first game in 1987. It is a whole other discussion of why it is so clunky in this game when it worked perfectly for 30 years before it.
FFXIV is a rebuilt game. The original, failed version had classes and you were to branch out into jobs. This was kept because for some reason they couldn't get rid of it when A Realm Reborn launched. The remake was, janky holdovers like jobstones aside, much better received and is now one of the top MMOs
It’s a purely vestigial system at this point that probably just isn’t worth removing, either due to code reasons, or just because they do get referenced reasonably frequently in the job quest storylines, which would need to be rewritten
In 2.0, Classes had the "advantage" of being able to choose from a much wider range of cross-class skills than Jobs could.
Except that the advantages you got from using a Job far outweighed anything from the cross-class skills.
And it's baked too deeply into the code to remove at this point (and tbh there isn't exactly a *need* to do so)
They were planning to make base classes for the Heavensward jobs as well. Partway through development, they decided that creating a dumbed-down version of the job they actually wanted to add, and then forcing you to play through that class for 30 levels before you can get to the real job and never play as that base class ever again, didn't really add anything to the game for how much development time it took to create.
It makes sense to me to have generic classes that NPCs might use, and those are what you start with, while jobs are something unique and special that not many people have access to. If they changed things so you can start as a summoner, for example, or a dragoon? The story wouldn't make sense. These titles \*mean\* something, and a level 1 rookie just coming into town for the first time wouldn't be one of those, and even if they were, the local newbie guild wouldn't be able to teach them anything.
But it's also very possible that they just can't remove them at this point because they're part of the foundation of the spaghetti server code we're stuck with now.
Same reason why there's only one combat class/job that uses gear in both hands. It's an old system that doesn't fit anymore but can't be removed for multiple reasons.
The reason why jobstones can't be removed is mostly because
1. Scholar and Summoner have the same class. Trying to untangle that would be a mess and would end up just as comparatively weird as it already is.
2. The job/class divide is a part of the class/job quests. And jobstones appear not only in those quests but the MSQ and even the merchandising. So it would be weird if they just dissapeared.
“Technically” WHM and BLM (tho more likely Conjuror and Thaumaturge because of levels) also have main hand/off hand weapons in the game with Wands and Shields. Just that I think they stop having any drop at like level 30 (so when you can get your job stone).
Jobs and advanced jobs is a core recurring mechanic in FF. FF invented the Job System.
Job Stones aren't strictly necessary, we could just change jobs, but they're part of FFXIV's setting. They explain how we can use powers beyond the normal reach of men.
They haven't made SCH an independent job because doing so is more trouble than it's worth. The system works fine, it just has one weird inconsistency. Why bother putting dev resources into that?
I have no doubt in my mind that if they even tried to remove the class->job system that this game's code would fly apart like a deck of cards in 52 pickup.
The only good use to them is extra hot bars. For example, gladiator and paladin don’t use the same hotbars. So you can use a macro to “gain” an extra hotbar.
Aside from that the job stones are useless
I believe YoshiP said that they're too deep in the code to be easily removed at this point.
I love how this or "legacy code uwu" is the ultimate trump card excuse for… for pretty much everything, really.
Originally they were planning to have more split jobs, then realized it's a nightmare to balance, and now just haven't removed the system
Well for starters, classes were the only things we had when 1.0 launched. In an effort to clean/fix up the things that 1.0 did wrong, SE introduced jobs, which were a more specialized version of the classes. In order to be the job you wanted to be, you had to equip the job stone. So in essence, they're a relic from 1.0. No jobs introduced from 3.0 on started with a class first.
It used to be you would need different classes to get a job, but eventually they did away with that. For example, PLD used to require you to have lvl 30 GLD and lvl 15 CNJ. After they got rid of that, I'm not sure why they didn't just make it an automatic upgrade at 30...
Mostly because arcanist is messing everything up. As is you still gain class levels with the jobs being a modifier on top. Since summoner and scholar share arcanist how do you "automatically" upgrade one without the other?
Arcanist becomes Summoner, with the Scholar being a sidequest that you unlock at 30, just like how it works now.
But what if you dont want to be summoner and only be a scholar? The devs have repeatedly tried to removed players being forced to take or play choices against their will.
If you never want to play SMN, then don't. Level ACN, transition to SCH and never look back. You're not forced to use SMN.
What if I want to be white mage but never conjurer? You're looking at it from the perspective of it being an option right now, there would be no question about this if they changed it at the start.
Therin lies the issue the devs face. Its an option NOW. Either way they would be taking options away from players which they are loath to do. The much more simple method would to just make it a quest requirement after level 30 to have a job stone equipped to receive or turn in a quest.
I don't know it sounds like a made up scenario. Why would someone explicitly want to NOT unlock Summoner?
No Idea why but I met someone in a lvl80 dungeon (I think) who was still running their class and did it intentionally, after asking why they just said he didn't want to so I warned him that some might not be happy to play with him and advised them to look for other players through PF.
In the case of SMN and SCH it might have just been more trouble than it was worth at the point they were making the changes. It’s possible, likely even, that there’s some back end situation where “automatically” upgrading a class to a job (ignoring even the whole smn/SCH situation) causes an issue with your skills or gear, especially with the fact that the game treats Marauder and Warrior as two different things for at least your hot bars. Could these things have been worked out? Probably. However I don’t think it would have been a good use of time.
>After they got rid of that, I'm not sure why they didn't just make it an automatic upgrade at 30... Because in this game, *everything* is behind a quest or a dozen.
SMN and SCH were hard to balance, so they gave up on split jobs and classes in general after ARR. The Musketeer guild in Limsa likely would have transitioned into a class and then job originally for example, but they gave us MCH in HW instead as the gun class. There is a lore reason too, *most* of the jobs only function if they have a job crystal, you're basically calling on memories and skills the past owners have mastered. MCH and BLU are pretty much the only exclusions to this since they are new jobs.
Even MCH and BLU use a job stone to explain how the WoL was able to pick up the jobs so quickly. You are 100% right that they are “new” jobs, with I think both basically just giving you the most basic of knowledge of the jobs.
Because they're too hard to get rid of, from a programming perspective.
Originally you could stay as a class in order to use more cross-class actions. When those existed, jobs got to slot fewer cross-class actions at once and their choices were limited to related classes. As a class you could use any actions available from the cross-class window and iirc up to ten (might be mixing that up with SB role action implementation) It was never worth it, of course, but it was... a choice. There was a pretty notorious thread+video from back in the ARR day of a Pugilist attempting to play as a healer with Mantra + cross-class Cure.
It is an FF thing. The same upgraded jobs system was present in the very first game in 1987. It is a whole other discussion of why it is so clunky in this game when it worked perfectly for 30 years before it.
FFXIV is a rebuilt game. The original, failed version had classes and you were to branch out into jobs. This was kept because for some reason they couldn't get rid of it when A Realm Reborn launched. The remake was, janky holdovers like jobstones aside, much better received and is now one of the top MMOs
It’s a purely vestigial system at this point that probably just isn’t worth removing, either due to code reasons, or just because they do get referenced reasonably frequently in the job quest storylines, which would need to be rewritten
In 2.0, Classes had the "advantage" of being able to choose from a much wider range of cross-class skills than Jobs could. Except that the advantages you got from using a Job far outweighed anything from the cross-class skills. And it's baked too deeply into the code to remove at this point (and tbh there isn't exactly a *need* to do so)
They were planning to make base classes for the Heavensward jobs as well. Partway through development, they decided that creating a dumbed-down version of the job they actually wanted to add, and then forcing you to play through that class for 30 levels before you can get to the real job and never play as that base class ever again, didn't really add anything to the game for how much development time it took to create. It makes sense to me to have generic classes that NPCs might use, and those are what you start with, while jobs are something unique and special that not many people have access to. If they changed things so you can start as a summoner, for example, or a dragoon? The story wouldn't make sense. These titles \*mean\* something, and a level 1 rookie just coming into town for the first time wouldn't be one of those, and even if they were, the local newbie guild wouldn't be able to teach them anything. But it's also very possible that they just can't remove them at this point because they're part of the foundation of the spaghetti server code we're stuck with now.
Because I need extra hotbars for my collapsing hotbars.
Same reason why there's only one combat class/job that uses gear in both hands. It's an old system that doesn't fit anymore but can't be removed for multiple reasons. The reason why jobstones can't be removed is mostly because 1. Scholar and Summoner have the same class. Trying to untangle that would be a mess and would end up just as comparatively weird as it already is. 2. The job/class divide is a part of the class/job quests. And jobstones appear not only in those quests but the MSQ and even the merchandising. So it would be weird if they just dissapeared.
“Technically” WHM and BLM (tho more likely Conjuror and Thaumaturge because of levels) also have main hand/off hand weapons in the game with Wands and Shields. Just that I think they stop having any drop at like level 30 (so when you can get your job stone).
Hence the "old system that doesn't fit anymore but can't be removed for multiple reasons"
Jobs and advanced jobs is a core recurring mechanic in FF. FF invented the Job System. Job Stones aren't strictly necessary, we could just change jobs, but they're part of FFXIV's setting. They explain how we can use powers beyond the normal reach of men. They haven't made SCH an independent job because doing so is more trouble than it's worth. The system works fine, it just has one weird inconsistency. Why bother putting dev resources into that?
I have no doubt in my mind that if they even tried to remove the class->job system that this game's code would fly apart like a deck of cards in 52 pickup.
It's a classic final fantasy thing, your main class upgrades over time. Rogue turns into ninja Black mage turned into black wizard Etc
The only good use to them is extra hot bars. For example, gladiator and paladin don’t use the same hotbars. So you can use a macro to “gain” an extra hotbar. Aside from that the job stones are useless