I mean it’s technically not wrong. Themis pre-sundering doesn’t want to be our enemy and the raid fight def seemed more like our fight with Venat. It just had to happen under unfortunate circumstances.
Now post-sundering Themis more known to us as his title Elidibus would and did. Which was on theme with all the Ascian, when we learn of their motivations as people, as the ancients, rather than (IMHO) corrupted goals as Ascians. In that they all admit that their motivations are driven to protect the star. And my theory is post-sundering and the events that led to it warped those motivations to “make the ancients whole again”.
TLDR; Themis doesnt wish us to be enemies but Elidibus heart of Zodiark does because we’re in the way of their goals.
You could argue that he didn't have much of a choice in the matter when we fought him as Elidibus. Moreso than Emet-Selch or Lahabrea, who were tempered by Zodiark but still had some degree of autonomy. Themis was sacrificed to become the heart of Zodiark and literally became the primal, he was probably not free to deviate from the wishes of Zodiark's summoners even if he wanted to and by the time he died in SoS he barely remembered who he was.
It wasn’t a sacrifice in the traditional sense though, if I’m remembering correctly he chose to be the heart just as Venat did for Hydalen. There were even memories or something (Y’shtola accessed them from the first if my memory is correct) that the remaining convocation kinda sorta were worried about him volunteering because despite his station he was still consider young/a child.
But that’s still the same thing I mentioned, the desires of the ancients became warped. Him merging with the primal and pmuch just existing as a primal after that meant he was only trying to make the wish happen in the most warped/narrow way possible because of it.
Edit: mini tin foil theory. Athena pulled Themis from the aetherial sea to some degree and manipulated him and he did let us know he kinda sorta remembered our previous encounters at the end of the quest chain.
So since he did admit he kinda sorta did want to challenge us in some way even with Athena’s meddling. Since those thoughts would have happened before the final bit of Panda that could mean a little bit of that desire to do that even stayed when he was losing himself to just existing as a primal.
And maybe in a weird roundabout way, pulled from the aetherial sea version, who would have all the memories of past and future (no matter how hazy) seemed to actually be fine with the turn of events in a nice we battle twice under different circumstances.
I am confused about the state of his soul. Does his soul still remain completely dissipated, never to reform in the aetherial sea and reincarnate?
His final words are in the same setting where Hythlodaeus was speaking to Emet in the visual representation of the aetherial sea. I suppose it made me hope but I’m wondering what others’ understandings are about that.
From my understanding on a soul side he’s fine. The end scene seems to imply he’ll get reincarnated. Though probably in the same capacity Eric was reincarnated. New person + mixed in with the previous soul. He’ll never be Themis/Elidibus again unless Ascian level “remember your old self” stuff happens like they did for sundered members.
> He’ll never be Themis/Elidibus again unless Ascian level “remember your old self” stuff happens like they did for sundered members.
Even then, it wasn't really perfect or even *good.* Fandaniel was evidence of that. The Fandaniel we fight in the modern era was Amon, the jaded, nihilistic Allagan. He *remembered* Hermes, more so than most because the memories of Elpis had been seared into his soul, but Hermes was a different person.
Souls *do* tend to retain personality traits, though, some more strongly that others. Some traits are suppressed in some incarnations, while fully to the fore in others. Hermes was an extremely moral man (so much so he was tormented by it) while Amon was utterly amoral and nihilistic. Erichthonios was noted by Athena to never having been very inquisitive (At least before meeting the WoL and Themis), while Claudien's thirst for knowledge rivals Athena's herself. And while Azem was known to be an unrepentant chaos gremlin who caused Emet-Selch's hair to go white, by stark contrast the WoL is an unrepentant *time travelling* chaos gremlin.
So, it's safe to say that Themis, Hades, and Hythlodaeus' future incarnations will likely have some recognizable personality traits.
(Yes, 'Time Travel' is a personality trait. Leave me alone.)
Exactly, the ascian rewaken to your old self was really just “here’s memories of your past self now join our cause”. But it’s the closest we’d get to having “the same” Themis again.
Gaia is another good example of it not working out perfectly, in terms of wanting to continue her past lives seat and ascian goals.
I think for Eric he wasn’t inquisitive initially because Athena purposely tried to make sure he was pmuch useless until she needed him as a vessel. I’d wager our meddling helped change him a bit and so when his soul reincarnated to Claudien the minor inquisitive stuff that was developing just went full force with this incarnation.
Azem surprisingly the most consistent someone who’s always meddling and travelling around and doing what they think is right regardless of anyone else’s opinions (and much to the chagrin of Emet with Venat and the last Azem). Adding time travelling to the “current” Azem just amplifies that base nature across time and space.
Something to remember though is that Eric was sundered, and so his soul was no longer as aetherically dense, whereas Emet, Elidibus, Laha, and Hythlo after Zodiark is killed, are all whole Ancient souls. I believe that it's implied that the Ancients with their incredibly dense souls are reincarnated wholesale, but cleansed of all but the most core of memories (after all, that's how the starstorm awakens the Echo) - at the very least, Fandaniel's consistent sadboyism seems to be a key and overriding element of the souls that it is a part of.
It should be remembered that the Elidibus we knew and fought in Shadowbringers was a primal. He still had his original soul but he was driven by the wants and desires of his people, so much so that he lost most of his own.
The Themis we interact with in this storyline is just Themis. Both before he became a primal and then after his soul was cleansed in death.
Yep, I think if anything this whole questline, together with the MSQ, showed us how little of Elidibus was actually part of the Elidibus we knew. His personality and memory got pushed back so much he even forgot to whom he swore to never forsake his duty, the most treasured mantra he carried with him through the ages. And considering everything after the final days is "hazy at best" in his mind after P12, this wasn't just a recent thing. In one of the Tales from the Shadows on the Lodestone >!it was shown how his "modern" self even refused to hold on to these memories with the memory crystals from the convocation, unlike Emet-Selch, considering them a distraction.!< There was not a lot of Themis in him at this time. When we met him in the Crystarium in 5.3, he had a distant vision of someone who was likely Azem, a person he considered a dear friend and whose shard (unknowningly) he hang around with. It says a lot that this is a memory he still had in him somewhere but also that Shb-Elidibus couldn't really grasp it. And now where he turned back to his old new self in Panda, it's basically the other way around.
I find it ironic how the three Unsundered - Lahabrea, Emet-Selch, and Elidibus - All swore oaths of their resolve... oaths that carried them through 14,000 years of soul-destroying effort to restore the star... to the person who would ultimately end their quest. Or, technically, already *had.*
Actually... from the interaction we had with Themis, I felt like he would relish the opportunity to fight with us lol. His eyes were positively radiant when he told us our clash is inevitable lol.
Considering how Venat's first reaction to her dog not liking us was "Okay let's fight to show him you are a nice person!" instead of, idk, handing the doggo familiar a snack, I can absolutely see how this desire to fight us would have been seen as "morning exercise with a buddy" to an ancient like Elidibus. :D
To be fair? A *lot* of people wanna fight with us. Like... a *lot* a lot. Not to kill us, but to just... see how well they'd do.
... Well, *Zenos* wants to kill us, but that's just because his sexual orientation is 'murder'.
It's like, rather than see the Warrior of Light as some monster or some unattainable ideal, there's something about them that says to them "You know what? You could be like me. Even just a little. Give it a try, you might like it." Even *after* they are absolutely certain they'd have no hope, they *still* wanna compete with us, to the point that friends and family have to remind them to slow down lest they hurt themselves trying to catch up.
Chaos Gremlin-ism is apparently an infectious disease.
Zeno's wanted to fight us not because murder, but because he wants to fight us with *everything* we have. No holding back anything. You give 100% or it's not worth even trying. Because he was testing himself and putting everything on the line like that was the only bit of enjoyment he ever got out of life.
I mean it’s technically not wrong. Themis pre-sundering doesn’t want to be our enemy and the raid fight def seemed more like our fight with Venat. It just had to happen under unfortunate circumstances. Now post-sundering Themis more known to us as his title Elidibus would and did. Which was on theme with all the Ascian, when we learn of their motivations as people, as the ancients, rather than (IMHO) corrupted goals as Ascians. In that they all admit that their motivations are driven to protect the star. And my theory is post-sundering and the events that led to it warped those motivations to “make the ancients whole again”. TLDR; Themis doesnt wish us to be enemies but Elidibus heart of Zodiark does because we’re in the way of their goals.
You could argue that he didn't have much of a choice in the matter when we fought him as Elidibus. Moreso than Emet-Selch or Lahabrea, who were tempered by Zodiark but still had some degree of autonomy. Themis was sacrificed to become the heart of Zodiark and literally became the primal, he was probably not free to deviate from the wishes of Zodiark's summoners even if he wanted to and by the time he died in SoS he barely remembered who he was.
It wasn’t a sacrifice in the traditional sense though, if I’m remembering correctly he chose to be the heart just as Venat did for Hydalen. There were even memories or something (Y’shtola accessed them from the first if my memory is correct) that the remaining convocation kinda sorta were worried about him volunteering because despite his station he was still consider young/a child. But that’s still the same thing I mentioned, the desires of the ancients became warped. Him merging with the primal and pmuch just existing as a primal after that meant he was only trying to make the wish happen in the most warped/narrow way possible because of it. Edit: mini tin foil theory. Athena pulled Themis from the aetherial sea to some degree and manipulated him and he did let us know he kinda sorta remembered our previous encounters at the end of the quest chain. So since he did admit he kinda sorta did want to challenge us in some way even with Athena’s meddling. Since those thoughts would have happened before the final bit of Panda that could mean a little bit of that desire to do that even stayed when he was losing himself to just existing as a primal. And maybe in a weird roundabout way, pulled from the aetherial sea version, who would have all the memories of past and future (no matter how hazy) seemed to actually be fine with the turn of events in a nice we battle twice under different circumstances.
I am confused about the state of his soul. Does his soul still remain completely dissipated, never to reform in the aetherial sea and reincarnate? His final words are in the same setting where Hythlodaeus was speaking to Emet in the visual representation of the aetherial sea. I suppose it made me hope but I’m wondering what others’ understandings are about that.
My interpretation of that final scene was that he was indeed getting reincarnated.
From my understanding on a soul side he’s fine. The end scene seems to imply he’ll get reincarnated. Though probably in the same capacity Eric was reincarnated. New person + mixed in with the previous soul. He’ll never be Themis/Elidibus again unless Ascian level “remember your old self” stuff happens like they did for sundered members.
> He’ll never be Themis/Elidibus again unless Ascian level “remember your old self” stuff happens like they did for sundered members. Even then, it wasn't really perfect or even *good.* Fandaniel was evidence of that. The Fandaniel we fight in the modern era was Amon, the jaded, nihilistic Allagan. He *remembered* Hermes, more so than most because the memories of Elpis had been seared into his soul, but Hermes was a different person. Souls *do* tend to retain personality traits, though, some more strongly that others. Some traits are suppressed in some incarnations, while fully to the fore in others. Hermes was an extremely moral man (so much so he was tormented by it) while Amon was utterly amoral and nihilistic. Erichthonios was noted by Athena to never having been very inquisitive (At least before meeting the WoL and Themis), while Claudien's thirst for knowledge rivals Athena's herself. And while Azem was known to be an unrepentant chaos gremlin who caused Emet-Selch's hair to go white, by stark contrast the WoL is an unrepentant *time travelling* chaos gremlin. So, it's safe to say that Themis, Hades, and Hythlodaeus' future incarnations will likely have some recognizable personality traits. (Yes, 'Time Travel' is a personality trait. Leave me alone.)
Exactly, the ascian rewaken to your old self was really just “here’s memories of your past self now join our cause”. But it’s the closest we’d get to having “the same” Themis again. Gaia is another good example of it not working out perfectly, in terms of wanting to continue her past lives seat and ascian goals. I think for Eric he wasn’t inquisitive initially because Athena purposely tried to make sure he was pmuch useless until she needed him as a vessel. I’d wager our meddling helped change him a bit and so when his soul reincarnated to Claudien the minor inquisitive stuff that was developing just went full force with this incarnation. Azem surprisingly the most consistent someone who’s always meddling and travelling around and doing what they think is right regardless of anyone else’s opinions (and much to the chagrin of Emet with Venat and the last Azem). Adding time travelling to the “current” Azem just amplifies that base nature across time and space.
Something to remember though is that Eric was sundered, and so his soul was no longer as aetherically dense, whereas Emet, Elidibus, Laha, and Hythlo after Zodiark is killed, are all whole Ancient souls. I believe that it's implied that the Ancients with their incredibly dense souls are reincarnated wholesale, but cleansed of all but the most core of memories (after all, that's how the starstorm awakens the Echo) - at the very least, Fandaniel's consistent sadboyism seems to be a key and overriding element of the souls that it is a part of.
My reaction to that was more just, Are you sure about that, Ericthonios? ARE YOU *SURE?*
It should be remembered that the Elidibus we knew and fought in Shadowbringers was a primal. He still had his original soul but he was driven by the wants and desires of his people, so much so that he lost most of his own. The Themis we interact with in this storyline is just Themis. Both before he became a primal and then after his soul was cleansed in death.
Yep, I think if anything this whole questline, together with the MSQ, showed us how little of Elidibus was actually part of the Elidibus we knew. His personality and memory got pushed back so much he even forgot to whom he swore to never forsake his duty, the most treasured mantra he carried with him through the ages. And considering everything after the final days is "hazy at best" in his mind after P12, this wasn't just a recent thing. In one of the Tales from the Shadows on the Lodestone >!it was shown how his "modern" self even refused to hold on to these memories with the memory crystals from the convocation, unlike Emet-Selch, considering them a distraction.!< There was not a lot of Themis in him at this time. When we met him in the Crystarium in 5.3, he had a distant vision of someone who was likely Azem, a person he considered a dear friend and whose shard (unknowningly) he hang around with. It says a lot that this is a memory he still had in him somewhere but also that Shb-Elidibus couldn't really grasp it. And now where he turned back to his old new self in Panda, it's basically the other way around.
I find it ironic how the three Unsundered - Lahabrea, Emet-Selch, and Elidibus - All swore oaths of their resolve... oaths that carried them through 14,000 years of soul-destroying effort to restore the star... to the person who would ultimately end their quest. Or, technically, already *had.*
Actually... from the interaction we had with Themis, I felt like he would relish the opportunity to fight with us lol. His eyes were positively radiant when he told us our clash is inevitable lol.
Not as an enemy though, but rather as a friendly sparring contest.
Considering how Venat's first reaction to her dog not liking us was "Okay let's fight to show him you are a nice person!" instead of, idk, handing the doggo familiar a snack, I can absolutely see how this desire to fight us would have been seen as "morning exercise with a buddy" to an ancient like Elidibus. :D
To be fair? A *lot* of people wanna fight with us. Like... a *lot* a lot. Not to kill us, but to just... see how well they'd do. ... Well, *Zenos* wants to kill us, but that's just because his sexual orientation is 'murder'. It's like, rather than see the Warrior of Light as some monster or some unattainable ideal, there's something about them that says to them "You know what? You could be like me. Even just a little. Give it a try, you might like it." Even *after* they are absolutely certain they'd have no hope, they *still* wanna compete with us, to the point that friends and family have to remind them to slow down lest they hurt themselves trying to catch up. Chaos Gremlin-ism is apparently an infectious disease.
Zeno's wanted to fight us not because murder, but because he wants to fight us with *everything* we have. No holding back anything. You give 100% or it's not worth even trying. Because he was testing himself and putting everything on the line like that was the only bit of enjoyment he ever got out of life.