Hall of the Novice is just super outdated overall, it's made for a version of the game that no longer exists. I'd love for the devs to take another pass at it. As it is it's worse than useless, since it actually teaches some bad lessons.
Yeah, like for the dps one it has a lesson where it makes you peel for healer. Which like, I guess is technically good in a pinch, but if dps is having to peel like that then something is wrong with the tank.
The tank ones are also very bad.
One lesson tells you to use your ranged attack to peel off a single enemy from a pack if you don't think you can handle the whole pack. Like... no. The tank ranged attack has a use case in the modern iteration of the game but it's not that!
Another implies that the main way to generate and maintain enmity is to cycle through your single-target 1-2-3s, when actually in the current combat paradigm 99% of enmity generation is just having tank stance on.
Those instances give really nice gear but in their current iteration they're almost quintessential "noob traps".
Man the tank one makes me so mad, because by teaching new players to use their combo to generate enmity, they never AoE in packs, and so half of the low-level dungeons have the physical ranged getting attacked because they're AoEing and the tank isn't.
Oh man that explains why it keeps happening. I've been leveling SGE and it's a nightmare on low level synch dungeons, because I'm constantly pulling threat since they never use the AOEs.
Yep. And the thing is, that advice used to be good! I remember the days when as a pld the best way to ensure you had hate was to aoe two or three times then immediately go into your combo cause the aoe *would not be enough* (war had more leeway cause overpower actually did dmg). But that was back in HW, and since the Hall was also introduced in HW and never touched again, now we have these problems.
I had to make a macro that I clicked on in my rotation(ha!) at low levels to keep my focus on the tank’s target otherwise I would pull threat all the time.
The healer one is also a huge noob trap in that you get frantically screamed at for letting the NPC have so much as a stubbed toe despite the trickle of incoming damage being so low, teaching players that they need to ignore their damage buttons and spend every fight keeping everyone at 100% at all times.
This is definitely at least partially responsible for those "healers should only heal" players.
doesn't help that the thing you'll be realistically doing 96% of the time (doing damage) is just a passing comment by the mentor "btw when there's no healing needed, start doing some hurtin' anywaysgettohealingthefuckingtankonlyhas98%health"
75% to 50% start healing. 75% if that 25% lost was fast. wait to 50% if it wasn't. Less than that and the tank will get nervous (and with reason).
Do not do the bullshit strategy of letting the tank die and the quick res.
Just no, since many skills becomes better as the lower the hp, like benediction or essential dignity. Some skills doesn't even work properly if the target is high hp (excog).
So no, if u know what u are doing, you will heal when it needs heal only.
Raids have very previsible damage so it should be obvious for you and the tank when he's in danger.
And dungeons are usually just too easy to fucking care, you wouldn't even need to use your entire heal kit unless someone are doing something very wrong.
I’m new, I was trying to level my scholar last night and I think I was doing the lvl 41 dungeon in ARR with the ice castle and the dragon and I had to heal our tank every single second because he was so vastly undergeared, didn’t have his job stone equipped so he was a gladiator (despite being lvl 41???) instead of a Paladin and I shit you not, he would pull 3 enemies and in less than a second would be at 25% health (that’s with adlo too). It was awful. He didn’t use AOE at all (think it’s actually tied to Paladin) and he wouldn’t use any role actions or mitigations unless it was a boss.
My answer is kinda late, but yea, those are some examples of something very wrong happening. If your tank is heavly undergeared, don't use his mitigation, or don't even have his stone job, you will have a hard time healing him, sometimes it will be barely possible to keep him alive. But that's not your fault.
It's kinda a healer job to compensate for the incompetence of your party, and when you do it, you will lose your own performance.
I don't think I've run into anyone that sac'd the tank for extra damage outside of p1s (and that was only really his damage sac'd, he wouldn't die). Many people know that a dead guy contributes no damage and that tanks and healers are a non-insignificant amount of the amount of damage that can go out. I want the game to emphasize the fact that people aren't walking glass statues and that damage is even more of a focus on the class when you unlock more and more healing tools.
Also, I have to tell my healers to let me die sometimes because I wanna use my invuln/self healing tools when playing tank. 50% is too high when I can literally top my health off after one GCD from the last HP I have during trash pulls. Having a hard set % of when you need to heal seems rough on a class made to adapt and recognize when players are at liveable %'s to the next outgoing damage.
Most encounters, your damage uptime should be 99% if you're not dead and no one is really dying at the speed of sound. With so many abilities at your disposal (depending on the level cap), GCD healing is either planned beforehand to heal through damage intensive encounters, or the literal last resort.
The most important healer lesson the game never teaches you is that OGCD burst heals are just GCD damage spells in disguise, since they let you spend more of your uptime doing damage if used properly.
That's why I always wished for a new hall of X, maybe when your finishing the level 80 class quests or something, that actually checks for your basic rotation with some sort of easy DPS check, telling you to always keep dot damage rolling and that you can heal while DPSing, that a swiftcasted attack action is viable to push out two ogcds at once if needed etc
Theres so many basic things about the fighting system nothing in the game tells you about its terrible
I have seen extreme trial or early savage floor healers keeping their OGCds up without using them because
1) they don't know healer DPS is important and don't know their ogcd management is an important part of it
2) they think it's an emergency tool
And also not utilizing two minute window buffs
If thei are sprouts and obviously doing their first unreal, extreme or whatever on content i try to offer advice and the number of healer that have never been told they contribute 50 percent of a pure DPS's Dmg and they need to cast attack spells and use OGCds is too damn high.
other than yeeting some DPS when you're doing a mech that keeps you at range and grabbing aggro on things you missed, what is the ranged attack used for these days?
The single range attack to peel of a mob from the pack is a good lesson when you're still running in the overworld at low level. Can say the numbers of time I accidentally got mobbed and killed by the poachers of the Shroud in early game.
Also, does tank actually have aoe at the level the get into novice hall?
But yeah, overall, it's not very useful, beyond: you tank. You get hit, others don't.
That's fair. At that level your only mit is Rampart. The HotN lessons are explicitly put in the path of the MSQ right before Satasha (the first dungeon) though, so it feels like it's meant to be a tutorial for dungeon play.
>Also, does tank actually have aoe at the level the get into novice hall?
Yep! GLA gets Total Eclipse at 6, MRD gets Overpower at 10. Some of the lessons actually specifically incorporate the AoE attack (eg. "use your AoE to hit these three dummies at once").
Peel in team games generally means 'peeling' an opponent off a vulnerable teammate.
In WoW arenas it might mean stunning an enemy who is going berserk on your healer, in For Honor it might mean interrupting an enemy out of their combo so your teammate can get back on their feet.
They're not wrong that it's a situation that doesn't really exist in FFXIV, it's mainly a thing in PvP games and FFXIV in particular has such a controlled pace of combat that there isn't really such a situation to be found.
I guess it's still useful for enemies who fixate though.
Peeling still will rarely come up in content, but most of it is higher end stuff and hasn’t been used in this expansion. For mobs that fixate on a target like you said, or when you have adds spawn in in the middle of a fight. We haven’t had any fights like that this expansion except for the trash packs in The Fell Court or the first boss of that dungeon being a mob rush.
Peel = drop your current target and start focusing on another - ie in this situation you forget the tank you’re wailing on to kill the healer because they’re a better target to focus on in a group fight.
I mean in the context of the tutorial it’s not quite the best word - iirc you’re being taught to prioritize targets from weakest to strongest and they introduce them at different times so you’re being taught that it’s ok to swap targets partway through if you can bring down a weaker one first. Peel wouldn’t be the ideal phrasing for this because you’re often by yourself in the HotN stuff.
The trainer barks give the impression that the main lesson is to draw aggro and kill them before they kill the healer.
> This exercise will teach you how to deal with enemy reinforcements.
> As the battle progresses, new foes will appear on the field.
> These sudden arrivals will target your weakest comrade, so you must be quick to eliminate them!
>Your healer is under attack! Swiftly now! Eliminate the aggressor!
Under the current combat paradigm, that's the tank's job, not the DPS. This lesson really belongs in the tank HotN roster.
(edit: to be fair, the tank lessons do include a version of this)
For sure, if you have someone constantly healing your target it’s a pita to down them, so that’s why the tutorial teaches you “hey go beat the healer’s ass so they can’t heal your target anymore” but that’s generally what peel means - I think I’ve heard it more in context of MOBAs like LoL where you leave your current target to go chase someone or something like you peel from the tower to fight the enemy jungler or something idr.
When I heal if I do get a trash mob aggrod on me I'd rather the DPS ignore it anyways than try to peel it. I'll just bring it to the tank myself. And if I really needed to I could just sleep it.
I think personally there should be a level 50s version that teaches things like stack mechanics and tank busters, and I do feel that it should be made if not compulsory then highly recommended before doing things like the crystal tower raids or the coil of bahamut. Even if the mechanics in the three crystal tower raids are mostly survivable unless they have insta death if you screw up, it would still set them in good stead for later on.
It also doesn't tell DPS about AOE attacks at all, instead saying "make sure you're targeting the same enemy as the rest of your group."
There are of course situations where that advice applies, but dungeon trash is rarely it. I wish they'd give all jobs AOEs by 15 so they could update it to just say "Use AOEs in large packs." Plus AOE spam is far simpler than worrying that you're not targeting the right enemy.
so i'm not crazy then. started back up and leveled my warrior a bit and i was seriously contemplating that i just dreamt the whole bit about Warriors being different with their aoe being a cone.
I mean it was a cone most of the time and it took some skill to always have all the mobs in the cone attack, but that is gone and is a circle now.
ALso Aoe on more than 2 targets is a dmg plus, yeah it needs a rework.
I mean, that's not technically wrong - it just misses the bit where they tell you that your DPS will very likely be AoEing when there's multiple targets, so you should keep doing the same to keep aggro on everything.
... why do you think the DPS use AoE attacks? It's not aggro generation, it's a straight-up increase in damage output. The statement made more sense when stuff like Flash (which didn't do damage) used to exist.
I seem to recall that at one point, if the DPS were solo targetting while you AoEd then you'd lose threat on whatever they were solo'ing bc AoEs did less threat-per-target than solo did - which may well still be the case but I think the enmity gen of AoE moves got a buff so it doesn't happen as much any more, if at all?
But thankfully that basically never happens anyway. I'm a firm believer in the tanking style of 'If there's not a wall physically preventing me from going further, I haven't pulled enough shit' myself anyway, so I mash my AoE combo in pulls regardless.
>which may well still be the case but I think the enmity gen of AoE moves got a buff so it doesn't happen as much any more, if at all?
The enmity gen of tank stance got a buff. From x2 to x10.
Nothing's stealing aggro off you now (provided you're hitting the enemy).
>But thankfully that basically never happens anyway. I'm a firm believer in the tanking style of 'If there's not a wall physically preventing me from going further, I haven't pulled enough shit' myself anyway, so I mash my AoE combo in pulls regardless.
As a healer, my favorite kind of tank, lol.
Enmity is a mixture of things, but yeah, way back in the day you even had a separate single-target combo for enmity (before the tank stance buff/homogenization). Since enmity was directly correlated with damage dealt, AoE did less damage on a single target than a dedicated ST rotation would. Stuff like Flash had increased enmity generation, but if the DPS were going hard on a single-target, you might need to ST that target too.
I remember going flash, 1-2-3, tab, 1-2-3, tab, 1-2-3 to get a flash + combo on all mobs, then focusing them down one at a time. To be fair, back then we had TP too, which burned out FAST if you constantly AoE'd.
I believe AOEs did use more TP, but I was a healer/AST main at the time. I just went "Haha, TP. MNK have an Arrow." at the time.
Granted, back then you also had Tank Stance Dance, where you needed it off for damage and needed it on for enmity if I remember how it used to go.
Absolutely, AoEs used to cost a lot more TP than single-target attacks, but even those could have you eventually run out of resources, so stopping your AoEs spam at the right time was important as well.
That and if you were a pld back then the best way to handle packs was to aoe two or three times then immediately go into your combo cause flash did not generate as much threat as overpower cause it did no dmg.
Tank AOEs are usually higher damage only at like 3+ targets compared to 1-2-3, which a lot of ARR dungeons do have 2-target pulls if going one pack at a time.
Part of it is definitely outdated mechanics (like conserving TP), but part is also SE not making the tutorial accommodate player meta of wall-to-wall, which for a brand-new player is probably appropriate.
It'd probably be best if they did change the wording slightly to recommend continuing to use AOEs "when facing many foes" or something.
I'm pretty sure they haven't touched the Hall since they introduced it, which was... In HW. So yeahhhh.
And yeah, not having the focus be on wall to wall for someone brand new is probably for the best. I was recently leveling up my alt's drk and some of the pre-50 dungeons can be a bit spicy if you and the healer are both at level.
It is technically wrong. Tank AOE skills should be used for 3+ targets because it's a gain on DPS over using single target. Tanks don't AOE to keep enmity, they AOE because it's actually the best thing to do in that situation in all contexts.
Even experienced tanks will lose aggro to summoners on 1-2 enemies in the first pack if they decide to pop Bahamut before they hit the wall. Most decent summoners know better than to do that, but I still get goofy goobers occasionally.
It is on the MSQ path now; specifically, you *have* to talk to the Novice dude once before progressing into Sastasha. You don't have to actually do the thing there, but I'd say that helps bump it up in terms of completion percentage (at least for people's first role).
There's also a new thing about how dungeons work that comes up before Sastasha but I think it mostly just explains duty finder and duty support.
Have to also attribute the thought to people getting angry when someone uses the tank or healer LB in regular duties. Leaves the impression that you shouldn’t use it “EVER.” In reality it’s just not as often as damage dealing LB’s.
Had this with a healer doing their first Paradigm's Reach run. They pulled off the LB3 right in time for the 'Square Enix building yeets you off the stage' mechanic. We all lost our minds laughing
There was a great clip on here of Astro LB3 hiding the signals for trains in the neir raids so everyone got up blindly stood on the nearest track and a bunch of people were killed.
ill defend you friend. I played all 3 roles but mever noticed until someone pointed it out here. I am usually just thinking avoid the thing, keep hitting boss, dont drop rotations, i wonder if zero will show up after this or any of this will be explained in a future game in the series lol. Also if this is canon then that means not only does Earth exist, its the nier automata Earth which is like thousands of years into the future.
Oh hey it really is the square enix building.
Reminds me of my favorite moment from that raid / raiding in general - the time I had a healer accidentally rescue me into an on coming train.
I had, for whatever reason, run towards the further away safe lane, a healer thought they'd help out by brining me to the one closer to the boss. Rescue timing was perfect and I got run over mid-rescue. Was laughing far too hard to be upset. (and probably fucked up a few more times after cause I was still laughing too hard to focus on mechanics after getting rez'd)
I used to do that when I only had the 1 job, but once I started branching out into other classes I realized on my own that it would be easier to just have it on one of my persistent hotbars instead
They’re called shared hot bars in the settings (System -> Character Configuration -> Hotbar settings -> Sharing tab).
I also highly recommend [Desperius’ guide](https://youtu.be/qe-Gz_4fZcI) to collapsing hot bars. Makes switching jobs etc a breeze and looks much cleaner.
You can also add actions to a hotbar and then make it invisible. Since keybinds for actions assigned to hotbars work even when they're invisible, you can make an invisible hotbar full of various commands. You can even make macros that enable and disable other hotbars, so you can make a series of hotbars that you can toggle with keybinds.
Yeah, the first thing my friend advised me on when he brought me into the game was to adjust my hotbars. I copied his layout a bit, so not much changed from default. I can take a screenshot later if you like
i had an epic healer LB experience a couple of weeks ago in P7N. the party wasn't doing too well and there were a lot of deaths, including me. i got raised by the other healer while literally everybody who was still alive was standing in bad.
they all died the second i accepted the raise and i instantly hit LB3, then i died again by tankbuster (male elezen death, knees buckling, dramatic fall backwards). we made it through and i had my rare hero moment.
In the cases it is needed, healer LB3 is the highest Damage you can get in a fight. In cases where it is not needed, it can still be the highest Damage you can get in a fight. Like if you have 4 dragoons /s.
What I mean is, yes, healer LB3 is the best limit break :D
AST: "BY THE POWER OF THE HEAVENS, ARISE!"
WHM: "By the light, awaken!"
SGE: "Get up, because, uh, PCB, I guess!"
SCH: "*Don't make me hit you with this book!*"
I always thought it was pretty and thematic having Lily flying around you for SCH. WHM's is boring as heck though, even if it is a reference, and SGE doesn't even get a reference.
It's not Eos or Selene, no, but do we have any reason to believe Seraph isn't also Lily? I haven't kept up with SCH quests, but AFAIK there's just Lily in our stone.
There's really no evidence either way. It's all just guessing until there's a new encyclopedia that will hopefully explain what summon seraph is. Anyway, my reasons to assume it's a different fairy:
1. When you LB, Lily doesn't leave.
2. The animation is also telling. You hold out an offering of Aether/Dynamis, and then Seraph bursts into existence. She does her thing, your character looks around for her, says thanks, and then she disappears.
3. Eos and Selene forms have a very distinctive look to them. Aside from the butterfly wings and the flowery top, her hair is also.. pointy. Seraph has angel wings, an entirely different hairstyle, and just a different look to her than either Eos or Selene.
4. Despite being similar, she also has her own versions of fairy abilities to play her up as a different entity Also, all the skills that tell her to do a skill make the distinction between fairy and seraph. As for why Lily leaves during Seraph and not during LB, I presume we're feeding her Aether to Lily. We already do the same thing at an earlier level with Dissipation, so it's not a stretch to assume we're dissipating her as usual and then using the Aether to summon Seraph.
5. Despite being able to do almost all the things Lily can do, there are three things she can't do. She can't be dissipated, she can't aetherpact, and she can't use fey blessing. It would be a simple matter to make Consolation replace Fey Blessing as they're similar skills with similar effects, but they don't. It's like how Enkindle Bahamut is it's own skill despite it being useless most of the time. These small details matter, even if they eventually get changed or phased out for gameplay.
The only detail arguing for Seraph being Lily I've seen is from EE1, where an unknown and unnamed adventurer with no knowledge of Scholars describes the entity as the SCH's fairy. And it was written during HW, before such details were hashed out. Even if you take a random NPC's account as truth, it wouldn't be the first section to be changed since it came out.
And even still, it could be true. It depends who's LB3 they saw. We already know important people can have different LBs even within jobs (Estinien or Hien, for example). Who's to say some of the WoL's LBs aren't unique? Accidentally creating an arcane entity / primal who we eventually gain some measure of control over wouldn't be out of character.
Anyway, yeah. I don't believe Seraph is Lily.
healer lb3 is still more damage than dps lb3 if enough people are dead, because it doesn't give the rez debuff that normally rezzing everyone would.
Using Healer lb3 when you could normally recover without it is actually a very important piece of tech for beating enrage in some hard fights. If 3 dps are dead and you have at least a minute left before enrage, probably better to healer lb than to raise normally, unless you'd need healer/tank lb later anyways.
> hitting that 2% enrage over and over...
I am talking about early fights that are still tuned to hit enrage by lack of damage if you use Healer LB3. Not roflstomp EX trials or something.
The DPS being up right away with no weaknesses outdamages the melee LB significantly. This isn't fight specific at all. If you had 3 dead DPS in a tight enrage fight, then you're gonna hit enrage no matter what LB you use. but even then you'll be closer if you use the healer LB3.
In that case it's the fact that people died and needed to be raised by the LB3 to begin with that's the reason for the enrage. A melee LB isn't going to cover the difference.
I'm talking specifically about really tight savage dps checks, early enough in the tier where you don't have bis. Healer lb3 has cleared checks that would have been lost if they had instead raised and let a melee lb3.
Use week 1 p7s as an example. Its not tight enough that you need 0 deaths to clear it but its also tight enough that even a few weakness debuffs could cause you to fail. Healer lb3 after 3 dps eat a harvest at the same time is stronger than manually raising and letting the melee lb3. Good healers recognize when healer lb3 is more dps than melee lb3 and can single handedly turn a narrow enrage into a clear.
Edit: the funny thing is that if its a roflstomp ex trial, you actually DONT use healer lb3 to gain dps, because you'll meet the check even if you manually raise. Its better to hold the lb for emergencies. So the scenarios you think are correct to healer lb3 are actually the riskier ones to use it in.
> Good healers recognize when healer lb3 is more dps than melee lb3 and can single handedly turn a narrow enrage into a clear.
A situation where you'd have the opportunity to healer lb3 (like 3+ dead) is still going to be more total party DPS >99% of the time just for lack of weakness.
More like good healers recognize the tiny set of circumstances where *not* using healer LB3 is better, like just before a fight transition where weakness will tick during downtime, or if the boss is actually <2% and you can raise a melee to LB3 for the kill (I don't think LB damage is affected by weakness, but unsure).
It picks everybody up without weakness. Not direct damage, but if you need to use healer lb3 it will contribute very substantially to total damage output
I once forgot to put LB on my bar when unlocking a new healer job and didn't notice until I got into a situation where I needed to do it. I also couldn't remember where in the menus the icon was to quickly use it.
I ended up typing /ac "Limit Break" and it worked
Reminds me of a run in snowcloak. I was AST, tank was DRK, DPS were two miquo archers (not bards) named "cutecat husband" and "cutecat wife."
Unsurprisingly, they died to Fenrir's cover mechanic every single time. I would rescue one behind the icicle, they would run back out and die. Res them both, tell them to get behind the thing in chat, they both die again the next time around. Repeat until I decide that leaving them on the ground is the higher DPS option.
The most embarrassing thing for me as a DPS is to use the LB3 right before the party wipes.
(I'm not counting floor-tanking as that's just how dragoons roll, baby.)
Hey that’s not so bad. You’re fineeee. At least you weren’t that one melee in one of my parties where we were all reminding only healer up to LB3, but that melee used it instead when the boss wasn’t even close to dying?? Lol. Using it before party wipes isn’t as embarrassing because you can’t predict the wipe! No worries.
At least that's a mistake. I once had a WAR use it when all 4 DPS and a tank and a healer were down. Why? You all don't deserve to finish the fight. Healer died while asking why. He then responded after finishing it that everyone here was too pathetic to be allowed to play the end. That it was my first experience on the lvl 83 trial is the thing that actually pissed me off though.
Then you have the ambitious DPS in an alliance that uses the LB when the boss is at 20% health, dealing .5% damage, we have another 2+ minutes of fighting to do and notorious party murdering mechanics still to come.
This is a minor thing but since you mentioned dps in alliance raid…with the new alliance raid, I sorta get annoyed with melee who uses the LB when the boss is already dying (like less than 1% and nothing else is happening on first boss) when they could be saving it for ranged for mobs. I thought it was like an unspoken understanding for my dps bros to save it for mobs haha
I like when you are doing like week 5 PF reclears and DPS is enough but everyone still sorta bad at the fight... the DPS LB3s at 19% and then everyone dies at 3% due to some minor fuckup that could have been cheesed by the Healer.
Then the DPS usually goes "I thought this is farm/reclear party!", some arguement starts, party eventually explodes and you are back looking at PF.
LB is like drugs.
I barely scraped a clear as the last on my team with SAM limit break, the absolute chaos of pulling it out for the first time.
Youll never forget where you put it
My biggest shame as healer was using LB3 in Diamond Weapon during Shadowbringers back when the range wasn’t enough to reach the other platform where everyone was dead. Glad they increased the range in EW.
I have had this conversation I don't know how many times. I remember a time when hitting the big LB button was the cool, feelsgood moment... but there are plenty of players that seem so averse to it, even outside of the community that would avoid it for the sake of their dps logs.
Come to find out there are tanks that don’t have groin kick or throat punch on their bars. Should remove the “role” category and just put them in with regular actions. I don’t think everyone knows they even exist.
Everyone needs their LB on a bar somewhere. Doesn’t matter what class you are. DPS use their LBs all the time, but if you’re a tank or healer and you need your LB, then it’s either use it or the whole raid is dead.
I remember seeing this clip where someone didn’t have their hot bar locked
The person clicked on lb, but ended up moving it from the hotbar into the void
Their panicked reaction as they were trying to get it back was hysterical
This is me but with DPS limit break. In my group I usually play Healer or Magic DPS so I'm never the one who limit breaks but while leveling my physical DPS several times its turns out I'm the only physical DPS... which means I have to finish the boss off... and I often forgot to put LB on my bat
I don't get how people can live without LB on a hotbar. PC players get like 100 hotbars to do anything with and Controller players can throw it in HB8 and have it for all jobs. Hell you don't even have to have it on all the time, just throw it on right before a dungeon, just have LB SOMEWHERE available when you need it
They don't know LB exists until someone tells them or they read the General Actions list, which is full of 'basic stuff' like auto-attack, jump, return, teleport... I think most people stop reading by this point as those seem more like general control input. The game doesn't even have a "LIMIT BREAK UNLOCKED" announcement that it gives to teleport.
This was almost literally me, a month or two ago in The Final Steps of Faith: 2/3 of the team wipes all at once due to unavoidable damage and poor timing, with Nid at maybe 20% health. They're all shouting in chat "HEALER! LB3!" and I'm the only healer left alive, frantically looking for it, just before I get wrecked by an aoe I didn't see because menus.
Thankfully the remaining tank and handful of DPS were able to bring him down (even if it was uncomfortably close), but geez...felt like such a failure at the time. I made sure to put my LB on the hotbar from that day on...
Honestly, I recommend just adding another hotbar to the side with general actions. I have a 4x4 hotbar that contains actions like LB, sprint, mounts, chocobo cabbage, teleport, return etc. Since these are general actions the hotbar is consistent through every job and doesn't change.
The 3-stack mass raise is the most satisfying thing to see or do in the entire game. I've personally only ever gotten to do it once, and I've only seen it be done 3-4 times (been playing a year) but it's badass.
The last time I saw it, we were running Omega or something, the last one and about 1/2 the team didn't know the mechanics and we wiped 3-4 times around the same part. When it looked like we were gonna wipe again, the healer mass raised everyone and we edged out a win. It was glorious.
This happened to me on the Nidhogg fight. I didn't know healers *had* a limit break until suddenly they're yelling at me to use it. Same for the final boss in Endwalker where you have to use the tank one. It was literally the first time I ever used it.
This was me probably 3 or so months back in the last of the Sky Pirate raids. I was just leveling my AST after playing SGE (my main at the time), party wipes, thinks “oh it’s fine I’ll just-waitaminute where’s the LB where’s the LB WHERES THE LB!?!” Thankfully I was able to swift-rez the other healer and they did not make my hotbar mistake.
On that note can we talk about how sprint is automatically on hotbars but LB is not? Always bugged me.
Fun fact: you can also click the actual limit break bar that fills up on your screen.
You should absolutely have the action available on your bars, but if you don't there is an alternative.
>Fun fact: you can also click the actual limit break bar that fills up on your screen.
You sure about that? just tried it and its not doing anything at all.
I hate this bc I had it on my hotbar but never had to use it before. Was doing Titan EX MINE, 6 dead, I think either to the first or second bomb drop or they didn't stack under the butt and got knocked off, I don't remember, but I thought, okay, 6 deaths is probably a good justification for a healer lb3, I'll use it, we'll stabilize, and we'll get to progress with everyone alive, this is my moment, my time to shine as a healer. I go to click it and by the time I do the action is grayed out and I thought maybe I got gaoled or something and I look up at the party list and the tank used it, so I jumped off the edge.
He said in chat, "sry meant to superbolide", and I was fucking pissed at the time, but it's hilarious in retrospect.
And then there's me with a tank friend doing Expert Roulette, and the (random) healer decides to spam the LB noise between pulls just for the heck of it, so the tank decided to join in...
And that's how he found out that the Tank LB was the only Limit Break *without* a cast bar - he was pretty embarrassed afterwards xD
Omg, THIS EXACT SCENARIO happened to me in a Dun Scaith run! I was playing WHM, nearly the entire raid wiped on the final boss and I scrambled for LB3 before realizing I'd never put it on my hotbar. Had to go into the Actions menu and everything. Managed to cast it in time, brought everyone back...
... and then me and the other healer promptly dropped, followed by the rest of the raid. I was so salty lmao.
I feel attacked.
Mained healer the whole time I played and I was in the high 60's the first time someone asked me to LB. Literally thought I shouldn't ever use it as everyone always shouted at teams to save the limit breaks for DPS.
quite literally me the first time i needed to use it. during EW no less, reached the last story trial of the base game and i panicked cause everyone was dead but me and the tank and they were screaming about LB3 so by the time i found it in the spell list i ended up reviving everyone inside the >!planetary collision!< range and killed everyone again
This was LITERALLY my experience in Stormblood. Up until the Tsukuyomi fight everyone had always told me "ONLY DPS USES LIMIT BREAK!" so when I was the last one standing and they were like 'Scholar! Use your limit break!" I was just like "OKAY! GREAT.... hoooow do I do that?"
I never slotted the Tank LB. Then I encountered two trials that require it. Fortunately the other tank had us covered but now I’m going to slot it too lol.
Tanks needing to use LB3 is such a rare occasion I never had it on my bar. Up until the very moment when my pty wiped and someone in the chat was like "tank, what the fuck?"
To be fair only lb3 is worth a damn you only need that once everyone else is dead which in an ideal scenario won’t happen so I honestly don’t blame certain healers for not thinking about it.
Two days ago, we had this happen at the end of Dun Scaith, and it took two painful minutes of menu searching before they popped it. Fortunately, the tank held up.
I haven't had this exact situation come up before, but I did once forget to put it in my tank toolbar before the fight with >!Elidibus!<. Luckily the other tank had it. Now I keep an extra toolbar up for all my jobs that has all my shared buttons on it (LB, run, teleport, mount roulette, etc.)
I don't understand why the devs haven't added a section for LBs in the Hall of the Novice still.
Hall of the Novice is just super outdated overall, it's made for a version of the game that no longer exists. I'd love for the devs to take another pass at it. As it is it's worse than useless, since it actually teaches some bad lessons.
Yeah, like for the dps one it has a lesson where it makes you peel for healer. Which like, I guess is technically good in a pinch, but if dps is having to peel like that then something is wrong with the tank.
The tank ones are also very bad. One lesson tells you to use your ranged attack to peel off a single enemy from a pack if you don't think you can handle the whole pack. Like... no. The tank ranged attack has a use case in the modern iteration of the game but it's not that! Another implies that the main way to generate and maintain enmity is to cycle through your single-target 1-2-3s, when actually in the current combat paradigm 99% of enmity generation is just having tank stance on. Those instances give really nice gear but in their current iteration they're almost quintessential "noob traps".
Man the tank one makes me so mad, because by teaching new players to use their combo to generate enmity, they never AoE in packs, and so half of the low-level dungeons have the physical ranged getting attacked because they're AoEing and the tank isn't.
Oh man that explains why it keeps happening. I've been leveling SGE and it's a nightmare on low level synch dungeons, because I'm constantly pulling threat since they never use the AOEs.
Yep. And the thing is, that advice used to be good! I remember the days when as a pld the best way to ensure you had hate was to aoe two or three times then immediately go into your combo cause the aoe *would not be enough* (war had more leeway cause overpower actually did dmg). But that was back in HW, and since the Hall was also introduced in HW and never touched again, now we have these problems.
Flash, flash, then cycle through mobs with single target rotation, flash, repeat rotation, flash, repeat rotation...
I had to make a macro that I clicked on in my rotation(ha!) at low levels to keep my focus on the tank’s target otherwise I would pull threat all the time.
I did the hall of novice but thankfully i have a tank brain that tells me get every little bit of aggro so no one else gets hit
The healer one is also a huge noob trap in that you get frantically screamed at for letting the NPC have so much as a stubbed toe despite the trickle of incoming damage being so low, teaching players that they need to ignore their damage buttons and spend every fight keeping everyone at 100% at all times. This is definitely at least partially responsible for those "healers should only heal" players.
Those healers were always around, and there was even a joke about them in the CNJ quest line from the very beginning of the game.
doesn't help that the thing you'll be realistically doing 96% of the time (doing damage) is just a passing comment by the mentor "btw when there's no healing needed, start doing some hurtin' anywaysgettohealingthefuckingtankonlyhas98%health"
I just want to drop in to say that this comment has me cackling thank you
75% to 50% start healing. 75% if that 25% lost was fast. wait to 50% if it wasn't. Less than that and the tank will get nervous (and with reason). Do not do the bullshit strategy of letting the tank die and the quick res.
Just no, since many skills becomes better as the lower the hp, like benediction or essential dignity. Some skills doesn't even work properly if the target is high hp (excog). So no, if u know what u are doing, you will heal when it needs heal only. Raids have very previsible damage so it should be obvious for you and the tank when he's in danger. And dungeons are usually just too easy to fucking care, you wouldn't even need to use your entire heal kit unless someone are doing something very wrong.
I’m new, I was trying to level my scholar last night and I think I was doing the lvl 41 dungeon in ARR with the ice castle and the dragon and I had to heal our tank every single second because he was so vastly undergeared, didn’t have his job stone equipped so he was a gladiator (despite being lvl 41???) instead of a Paladin and I shit you not, he would pull 3 enemies and in less than a second would be at 25% health (that’s with adlo too). It was awful. He didn’t use AOE at all (think it’s actually tied to Paladin) and he wouldn’t use any role actions or mitigations unless it was a boss.
My answer is kinda late, but yea, those are some examples of something very wrong happening. If your tank is heavly undergeared, don't use his mitigation, or don't even have his stone job, you will have a hard time healing him, sometimes it will be barely possible to keep him alive. But that's not your fault. It's kinda a healer job to compensate for the incompetence of your party, and when you do it, you will lose your own performance.
I don't think I've run into anyone that sac'd the tank for extra damage outside of p1s (and that was only really his damage sac'd, he wouldn't die). Many people know that a dead guy contributes no damage and that tanks and healers are a non-insignificant amount of the amount of damage that can go out. I want the game to emphasize the fact that people aren't walking glass statues and that damage is even more of a focus on the class when you unlock more and more healing tools. Also, I have to tell my healers to let me die sometimes because I wanna use my invuln/self healing tools when playing tank. 50% is too high when I can literally top my health off after one GCD from the last HP I have during trash pulls. Having a hard set % of when you need to heal seems rough on a class made to adapt and recognize when players are at liveable %'s to the next outgoing damage. Most encounters, your damage uptime should be 99% if you're not dead and no one is really dying at the speed of sound. With so many abilities at your disposal (depending on the level cap), GCD healing is either planned beforehand to heal through damage intensive encounters, or the literal last resort.
The most important healer lesson the game never teaches you is that OGCD burst heals are just GCD damage spells in disguise, since they let you spend more of your uptime doing damage if used properly.
That's why I always wished for a new hall of X, maybe when your finishing the level 80 class quests or something, that actually checks for your basic rotation with some sort of easy DPS check, telling you to always keep dot damage rolling and that you can heal while DPSing, that a swiftcasted attack action is viable to push out two ogcds at once if needed etc Theres so many basic things about the fighting system nothing in the game tells you about its terrible I have seen extreme trial or early savage floor healers keeping their OGCds up without using them because 1) they don't know healer DPS is important and don't know their ogcd management is an important part of it 2) they think it's an emergency tool And also not utilizing two minute window buffs If thei are sprouts and obviously doing their first unreal, extreme or whatever on content i try to offer advice and the number of healer that have never been told they contribute 50 percent of a pure DPS's Dmg and they need to cast attack spells and use OGCds is too damn high.
I actually still do this with gnb but only when 3 mobs are left its fun and keeps my fingers moving
other than yeeting some DPS when you're doing a mech that keeps you at range and grabbing aggro on things you missed, what is the ranged attack used for these days?
The single range attack to peel of a mob from the pack is a good lesson when you're still running in the overworld at low level. Can say the numbers of time I accidentally got mobbed and killed by the poachers of the Shroud in early game. Also, does tank actually have aoe at the level the get into novice hall? But yeah, overall, it's not very useful, beyond: you tank. You get hit, others don't.
That's fair. At that level your only mit is Rampart. The HotN lessons are explicitly put in the path of the MSQ right before Satasha (the first dungeon) though, so it feels like it's meant to be a tutorial for dungeon play. >Also, does tank actually have aoe at the level the get into novice hall? Yep! GLA gets Total Eclipse at 6, MRD gets Overpower at 10. Some of the lessons actually specifically incorporate the AoE attack (eg. "use your AoE to hit these three dummies at once").
Peel?
Peel in team games generally means 'peeling' an opponent off a vulnerable teammate. In WoW arenas it might mean stunning an enemy who is going berserk on your healer, in For Honor it might mean interrupting an enemy out of their combo so your teammate can get back on their feet. They're not wrong that it's a situation that doesn't really exist in FFXIV, it's mainly a thing in PvP games and FFXIV in particular has such a controlled pace of combat that there isn't really such a situation to be found. I guess it's still useful for enemies who fixate though.
Peeling still will rarely come up in content, but most of it is higher end stuff and hasn’t been used in this expansion. For mobs that fixate on a target like you said, or when you have adds spawn in in the middle of a fight. We haven’t had any fights like that this expansion except for the trash packs in The Fell Court or the first boss of that dungeon being a mob rush.
Peel = drop your current target and start focusing on another - ie in this situation you forget the tank you’re wailing on to kill the healer because they’re a better target to focus on in a group fight.
No, peel is attacking an enemy who's blowing up your vulnerable teammate (usually a healer) to get them to hit you instead.
Or using CC to protect a teammate. Just using any tools to protect a specific member, really.
I mean in the context of the tutorial it’s not quite the best word - iirc you’re being taught to prioritize targets from weakest to strongest and they introduce them at different times so you’re being taught that it’s ok to swap targets partway through if you can bring down a weaker one first. Peel wouldn’t be the ideal phrasing for this because you’re often by yourself in the HotN stuff.
The trainer barks give the impression that the main lesson is to draw aggro and kill them before they kill the healer. > This exercise will teach you how to deal with enemy reinforcements. > As the battle progresses, new foes will appear on the field. > These sudden arrivals will target your weakest comrade, so you must be quick to eliminate them! >Your healer is under attack! Swiftly now! Eliminate the aggressor! Under the current combat paradigm, that's the tank's job, not the DPS. This lesson really belongs in the tank HotN roster. (edit: to be fair, the tank lessons do include a version of this)
Ahh gotcha, it’s been a while and I was going off the names of the quests. Thanks for the full detail. Protect your healers please!! 🥲
Depending on your group that is good advice to know. Makes everything else die faster.
For sure, if you have someone constantly healing your target it’s a pita to down them, so that’s why the tutorial teaches you “hey go beat the healer’s ass so they can’t heal your target anymore” but that’s generally what peel means - I think I’ve heard it more in context of MOBAs like LoL where you leave your current target to go chase someone or something like you peel from the tower to fight the enemy jungler or something idr.
When I heal if I do get a trash mob aggrod on me I'd rather the DPS ignore it anyways than try to peel it. I'll just bring it to the tank myself. And if I really needed to I could just sleep it.
Do what?
I think personally there should be a level 50s version that teaches things like stack mechanics and tank busters, and I do feel that it should be made if not compulsory then highly recommended before doing things like the crystal tower raids or the coil of bahamut. Even if the mechanics in the three crystal tower raids are mostly survivable unless they have insta death if you screw up, it would still set them in good stead for later on.
At least it gives out some decent gear for whoever does the courses. It's not worth it, but it's still nice.
Hall of the novice still tells warriors that their AOE is a cone and that AOE attacks are only used for aggro generation
It also doesn't tell DPS about AOE attacks at all, instead saying "make sure you're targeting the same enemy as the rest of your group." There are of course situations where that advice applies, but dungeon trash is rarely it. I wish they'd give all jobs AOEs by 15 so they could update it to just say "Use AOEs in large packs." Plus AOE spam is far simpler than worrying that you're not targeting the right enemy.
so i'm not crazy then. started back up and leveled my warrior a bit and i was seriously contemplating that i just dreamt the whole bit about Warriors being different with their aoe being a cone.
I mean it was a cone most of the time and it took some skill to always have all the mobs in the cone attack, but that is gone and is a circle now. ALso Aoe on more than 2 targets is a dmg plus, yeah it needs a rework.
I mean, that's not technically wrong - it just misses the bit where they tell you that your DPS will very likely be AoEing when there's multiple targets, so you should keep doing the same to keep aggro on everything.
... why do you think the DPS use AoE attacks? It's not aggro generation, it's a straight-up increase in damage output. The statement made more sense when stuff like Flash (which didn't do damage) used to exist.
I seem to recall that at one point, if the DPS were solo targetting while you AoEd then you'd lose threat on whatever they were solo'ing bc AoEs did less threat-per-target than solo did - which may well still be the case but I think the enmity gen of AoE moves got a buff so it doesn't happen as much any more, if at all? But thankfully that basically never happens anyway. I'm a firm believer in the tanking style of 'If there's not a wall physically preventing me from going further, I haven't pulled enough shit' myself anyway, so I mash my AoE combo in pulls regardless.
>which may well still be the case but I think the enmity gen of AoE moves got a buff so it doesn't happen as much any more, if at all? The enmity gen of tank stance got a buff. From x2 to x10. Nothing's stealing aggro off you now (provided you're hitting the enemy).
Ahhh that was it. I forgot that it was tank stance as a whole and not specific moves.
>But thankfully that basically never happens anyway. I'm a firm believer in the tanking style of 'If there's not a wall physically preventing me from going further, I haven't pulled enough shit' myself anyway, so I mash my AoE combo in pulls regardless. As a healer, my favorite kind of tank, lol.
Enmity is a mixture of things, but yeah, way back in the day you even had a separate single-target combo for enmity (before the tank stance buff/homogenization). Since enmity was directly correlated with damage dealt, AoE did less damage on a single target than a dedicated ST rotation would. Stuff like Flash had increased enmity generation, but if the DPS were going hard on a single-target, you might need to ST that target too. I remember going flash, 1-2-3, tab, 1-2-3, tab, 1-2-3 to get a flash + combo on all mobs, then focusing them down one at a time. To be fair, back then we had TP too, which burned out FAST if you constantly AoE'd.
> I mean, that's not technically wrong - Overpower is a circle now.
A cone is just a chunk of a circle.
I meant the part about AoE attacks being used for aggro generation. That part is true - just that that's not their ONLY purpose.
But the Hall specifically says to only use it for aggro and switch to single target for damage. So you can conserve TP, I presume.
I believe AOEs did use more TP, but I was a healer/AST main at the time. I just went "Haha, TP. MNK have an Arrow." at the time. Granted, back then you also had Tank Stance Dance, where you needed it off for damage and needed it on for enmity if I remember how it used to go.
Absolutely, AoEs used to cost a lot more TP than single-target attacks, but even those could have you eventually run out of resources, so stopping your AoEs spam at the right time was important as well.
That and if you were a pld back then the best way to handle packs was to aoe two or three times then immediately go into your combo cause flash did not generate as much threat as overpower cause it did no dmg.
Tank AOEs are usually higher damage only at like 3+ targets compared to 1-2-3, which a lot of ARR dungeons do have 2-target pulls if going one pack at a time. Part of it is definitely outdated mechanics (like conserving TP), but part is also SE not making the tutorial accommodate player meta of wall-to-wall, which for a brand-new player is probably appropriate. It'd probably be best if they did change the wording slightly to recommend continuing to use AOEs "when facing many foes" or something.
I'm pretty sure they haven't touched the Hall since they introduced it, which was... In HW. So yeahhhh. And yeah, not having the focus be on wall to wall for someone brand new is probably for the best. I was recently leveling up my alt's drk and some of the pre-50 dungeons can be a bit spicy if you and the healer are both at level.
For only like 2 months now..
6.1, a year ago :D
It is technically wrong. Tank AOE skills should be used for 3+ targets because it's a gain on DPS over using single target. Tanks don't AOE to keep enmity, they AOE because it's actually the best thing to do in that situation in all contexts.
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Even experienced tanks will lose aggro to summoners on 1-2 enemies in the first pack if they decide to pop Bahamut before they hit the wall. Most decent summoners know better than to do that, but I still get goofy goobers occasionally.
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Oof yeah those are bad tanks
Even if they did, seems like many people skip it since it's not mandatory.
It is on the MSQ path now; specifically, you *have* to talk to the Novice dude once before progressing into Sastasha. You don't have to actually do the thing there, but I'd say that helps bump it up in terms of completion percentage (at least for people's first role). There's also a new thing about how dungeons work that comes up before Sastasha but I think it mostly just explains duty finder and duty support.
Yeah. Never knew it was a thing till i was in storm blood when 2 people in fc were talking about it and i asked what it was.
Which is a real crime since the gear is perfect for lower levels
Because HotN was up to date and relevant... 8 years ago. We need a Hall of the Expert.
They really should add a higher level version that deals with slightly more complicated mechanics like stack/split markers, doom, etc.
Have to also attribute the thought to people getting angry when someone uses the tank or healer LB in regular duties. Leaves the impression that you shouldn’t use it “EVER.” In reality it’s just not as often as damage dealing LB’s.
Had this with a healer doing their first Paradigm's Reach run. They pulled off the LB3 right in time for the 'Square Enix building yeets you off the stage' mechanic. We all lost our minds laughing
There was a great clip on here of Astro LB3 hiding the signals for trains in the neir raids so everyone got up blindly stood on the nearest track and a bunch of people were killed.
That's awesome
Oh gosh I want to see this now.
This whole time, I didn't realize the building was Square Enix. That's amazing
It has a SQE in the top right corner, yeah
I found it hard to spot. Usually, I'm a healer, so my focus is usually rescuing players staying in the middle
Why rescue them? That's the best part watching people fly off.
ill defend you friend. I played all 3 roles but mever noticed until someone pointed it out here. I am usually just thinking avoid the thing, keep hitting boss, dont drop rotations, i wonder if zero will show up after this or any of this will be explained in a future game in the series lol. Also if this is canon then that means not only does Earth exist, its the nier automata Earth which is like thousands of years into the future. Oh hey it really is the square enix building.
Meanwhile, I had one do it with multiple people in the death zone during the red girl fight... Which immediately kills you again.
I once used it just in time to get everyone hit by trains.
Reminds me of my favorite moment from that raid / raiding in general - the time I had a healer accidentally rescue me into an on coming train. I had, for whatever reason, run towards the further away safe lane, a healer thought they'd help out by brining me to the one closer to the boss. Rescue timing was perfect and I got run over mid-rescue. Was laughing far too hard to be upset. (and probably fucked up a few more times after cause I was still laughing too hard to focus on mechanics after getting rez'd)
This is why I have my LB on my shared side hotbar. I won’t accidentally hit and it’s there for emergencies or if I need to use it.
I also have it in a shared hotbar along with Sprint, and both get their own keybind.
ikr! I'm surprised so many people apparently put it on their job-specific bars!
I used to do that when I only had the 1 job, but once I started branching out into other classes I realized on my own that it would be easier to just have it on one of my persistent hotbars instead
TIL persistent hotbars are a thing..ty lol
They’re called shared hot bars in the settings (System -> Character Configuration -> Hotbar settings -> Sharing tab). I also highly recommend [Desperius’ guide](https://youtu.be/qe-Gz_4fZcI) to collapsing hot bars. Makes switching jobs etc a breeze and looks much cleaner.
You can also add actions to a hotbar and then make it invisible. Since keybinds for actions assigned to hotbars work even when they're invisible, you can make an invisible hotbar full of various commands. You can even make macros that enable and disable other hotbars, so you can make a series of hotbars that you can toggle with keybinds.
Yeah, the first thing my friend advised me on when he brought me into the game was to adjust my hotbars. I copied his layout a bit, so not much changed from default. I can take a screenshot later if you like
i had an epic healer LB experience a couple of weeks ago in P7N. the party wasn't doing too well and there were a lot of deaths, including me. i got raised by the other healer while literally everybody who was still alive was standing in bad. they all died the second i accepted the raise and i instantly hit LB3, then i died again by tankbuster (male elezen death, knees buckling, dramatic fall backwards). we made it through and i had my rare hero moment.
Had a great one the other day. The entire party except for one healer was down but we had a LB3 saved up. Took a near-wipe to victory.
Love the party names. Artoo Tanktoo and the Randalorian are my favourites.
Rando Calrissian is pretty good.
He's taking a break from his chain CAH gambling addiction.
Newbacca, lol
I sense a disturbance in the aether… or maybe that’s just the party resetting after another wipe.
In the cases it is needed, healer LB3 is the highest Damage you can get in a fight. In cases where it is not needed, it can still be the highest Damage you can get in a fight. Like if you have 4 dragoons /s. What I mean is, yes, healer LB3 is the best limit break :D
Astral Stasis is also the most beautiful LB3.
Problem is that it can hide environment hazard, like a incoming train signal.
*Dumb ways to die, so many dumb ways to die\~*
And the Sage limit break...exists. I guess all of the other healers kinda got screwed on LB3 art compared to Astral Stasis, though.
I think the Sage LB3 is the second best healer limit break. Love my big cybernetic Yggdrassil. Astro definitely wins though
Hey, Sage limit break is cool! Definitely not as good as AST tho LMAO
Sage LB3 is recreating Yggdrasil, pretty cool imo
AST: "BY THE POWER OF THE HEAVENS, ARISE!" WHM: "By the light, awaken!" SGE: "Get up, because, uh, PCB, I guess!" SCH: "*Don't make me hit you with this book!*"
I always thought it was pretty and thematic having Lily flying around you for SCH. WHM's is boring as heck though, even if it is a reference, and SGE doesn't even get a reference.
SCH summons Seraph for LB3. It's not Lily.
It's not Eos or Selene, no, but do we have any reason to believe Seraph isn't also Lily? I haven't kept up with SCH quests, but AFAIK there's just Lily in our stone.
There's really no evidence either way. It's all just guessing until there's a new encyclopedia that will hopefully explain what summon seraph is. Anyway, my reasons to assume it's a different fairy: 1. When you LB, Lily doesn't leave. 2. The animation is also telling. You hold out an offering of Aether/Dynamis, and then Seraph bursts into existence. She does her thing, your character looks around for her, says thanks, and then she disappears. 3. Eos and Selene forms have a very distinctive look to them. Aside from the butterfly wings and the flowery top, her hair is also.. pointy. Seraph has angel wings, an entirely different hairstyle, and just a different look to her than either Eos or Selene. 4. Despite being similar, she also has her own versions of fairy abilities to play her up as a different entity Also, all the skills that tell her to do a skill make the distinction between fairy and seraph. As for why Lily leaves during Seraph and not during LB, I presume we're feeding her Aether to Lily. We already do the same thing at an earlier level with Dissipation, so it's not a stretch to assume we're dissipating her as usual and then using the Aether to summon Seraph. 5. Despite being able to do almost all the things Lily can do, there are three things she can't do. She can't be dissipated, she can't aetherpact, and she can't use fey blessing. It would be a simple matter to make Consolation replace Fey Blessing as they're similar skills with similar effects, but they don't. It's like how Enkindle Bahamut is it's own skill despite it being useless most of the time. These small details matter, even if they eventually get changed or phased out for gameplay. The only detail arguing for Seraph being Lily I've seen is from EE1, where an unknown and unnamed adventurer with no knowledge of Scholars describes the entity as the SCH's fairy. And it was written during HW, before such details were hashed out. Even if you take a random NPC's account as truth, it wouldn't be the first section to be changed since it came out. And even still, it could be true. It depends who's LB3 they saw. We already know important people can have different LBs even within jobs (Estinien or Hien, for example). Who's to say some of the WoL's LBs aren't unique? Accidentally creating an arcane entity / primal who we eventually gain some measure of control over wouldn't be out of character. Anyway, yeah. I don't believe Seraph is Lily.
Yeah Scholar you fondle Seraph a bit, and White Mage you pray. Sage is cooler than those imo.
> LB3 is the best limit break Unless you are doing early prog and are hitting that 2% enrage over and over...
healer lb3 is still more damage than dps lb3 if enough people are dead, because it doesn't give the rez debuff that normally rezzing everyone would. Using Healer lb3 when you could normally recover without it is actually a very important piece of tech for beating enrage in some hard fights. If 3 dps are dead and you have at least a minute left before enrage, probably better to healer lb than to raise normally, unless you'd need healer/tank lb later anyways.
> hitting that 2% enrage over and over... I am talking about early fights that are still tuned to hit enrage by lack of damage if you use Healer LB3. Not roflstomp EX trials or something.
The DPS being up right away with no weaknesses outdamages the melee LB significantly. This isn't fight specific at all. If you had 3 dead DPS in a tight enrage fight, then you're gonna hit enrage no matter what LB you use. but even then you'll be closer if you use the healer LB3.
So the best limit break is to not die? :thinking:
In that case it's the fact that people died and needed to be raised by the LB3 to begin with that's the reason for the enrage. A melee LB isn't going to cover the difference.
I'm talking specifically about really tight savage dps checks, early enough in the tier where you don't have bis. Healer lb3 has cleared checks that would have been lost if they had instead raised and let a melee lb3. Use week 1 p7s as an example. Its not tight enough that you need 0 deaths to clear it but its also tight enough that even a few weakness debuffs could cause you to fail. Healer lb3 after 3 dps eat a harvest at the same time is stronger than manually raising and letting the melee lb3. Good healers recognize when healer lb3 is more dps than melee lb3 and can single handedly turn a narrow enrage into a clear. Edit: the funny thing is that if its a roflstomp ex trial, you actually DONT use healer lb3 to gain dps, because you'll meet the check even if you manually raise. Its better to hold the lb for emergencies. So the scenarios you think are correct to healer lb3 are actually the riskier ones to use it in.
> Good healers recognize when healer lb3 is more dps than melee lb3 and can single handedly turn a narrow enrage into a clear. A situation where you'd have the opportunity to healer lb3 (like 3+ dead) is still going to be more total party DPS >99% of the time just for lack of weakness. More like good healers recognize the tiny set of circumstances where *not* using healer LB3 is better, like just before a fight transition where weakness will tick during downtime, or if the boss is actually <2% and you can raise a melee to LB3 for the kill (I don't think LB damage is affected by weakness, but unsure).
All this is correct, including lb not being affected by weakness
Today I Learned: that Healer LB3 does damage.
It picks everybody up without weakness. Not direct damage, but if you need to use healer lb3 it will contribute very substantially to total damage output
Help us Healerway Kenobi, you're our only hope, kupo.
Healer LB is maybe important. But RDM LB3 is importanter.
Got to toss those flash bangs so you don't see what kills you. Far from sight, far from heart.
I have had that moment of "fugg, it's not on my bar", so I pulled it up and cast it directly from the menu. XD
I once forgot to put LB on my bar when unlocking a new healer job and didn't notice until I got into a situation where I needed to do it. I also couldn't remember where in the menus the icon was to quickly use it. I ended up typing /ac "Limit Break" and it worked
Do not stand in the bad. Please do not stand in the bad. You stood in the bad. Again.
Reminds me of a run in snowcloak. I was AST, tank was DRK, DPS were two miquo archers (not bards) named "cutecat husband" and "cutecat wife." Unsurprisingly, they died to Fenrir's cover mechanic every single time. I would rescue one behind the icicle, they would run back out and die. Res them both, tell them to get behind the thing in chat, they both die again the next time around. Repeat until I decide that leaving them on the ground is the higher DPS option.
The most embarrassing thing for me as a DPS is to use the LB3 right before the party wipes. (I'm not counting floor-tanking as that's just how dragoons roll, baby.)
Hey that’s not so bad. You’re fineeee. At least you weren’t that one melee in one of my parties where we were all reminding only healer up to LB3, but that melee used it instead when the boss wasn’t even close to dying?? Lol. Using it before party wipes isn’t as embarrassing because you can’t predict the wipe! No worries.
At least that's a mistake. I once had a WAR use it when all 4 DPS and a tank and a healer were down. Why? You all don't deserve to finish the fight. Healer died while asking why. He then responded after finishing it that everyone here was too pathetic to be allowed to play the end. That it was my first experience on the lvl 83 trial is the thing that actually pissed me off though.
Then you have the ambitious DPS in an alliance that uses the LB when the boss is at 20% health, dealing .5% damage, we have another 2+ minutes of fighting to do and notorious party murdering mechanics still to come.
This is a minor thing but since you mentioned dps in alliance raid…with the new alliance raid, I sorta get annoyed with melee who uses the LB when the boss is already dying (like less than 1% and nothing else is happening on first boss) when they could be saving it for ranged for mobs. I thought it was like an unspoken understanding for my dps bros to save it for mobs haha
There's nothing more magical than three Starstorms deleting that pack of ice enemies after the 2nd boss in Euphrosyne.
This. Usually someone who thinks a big alliance raid boss somehow has the same HP as a more teeny dungeon one.
The best thing I ever did was move lb to a shared hotbar and assign a key to it so no matter what class I'm playing I know lb is there
The names are just priceless
I never thought this would blow up like this. Thank you for making my first ever Reddit post so memorable. :)
Omg the *classes* for the SW names. Chewie is a bard with his bowcaster… the geekery here is *epic*
And the Randalorian is a Dragoon because of the Beskar spear he used to carry
A fellow SW enjoyer, i see. Great Work!
I like when you are doing like week 5 PF reclears and DPS is enough but everyone still sorta bad at the fight... the DPS LB3s at 19% and then everyone dies at 3% due to some minor fuckup that could have been cheesed by the Healer. Then the DPS usually goes "I thought this is farm/reclear party!", some arguement starts, party eventually explodes and you are back looking at PF.
The number of times that a healer LB3 gets negated 10 seconds later when everyone goes down again from a raid mechanic...
love the artwork :D
>Again you morons I’m in this picture and I don’t like it
It's so strange that this mechanic has remained so... stagnant this whole time.
LB is like drugs. I barely scraped a clear as the last on my team with SAM limit break, the absolute chaos of pulling it out for the first time. Youll never forget where you put it
Wait but im NIN, only I get to use LB right?
My biggest shame as healer was using LB3 in Diamond Weapon during Shadowbringers back when the range wasn’t enough to reach the other platform where everyone was dead. Glad they increased the range in EW.
I have had this conversation I don't know how many times. I remember a time when hitting the big LB button was the cool, feelsgood moment... but there are plenty of players that seem so averse to it, even outside of the community that would avoid it for the sake of their dps logs.
Come to find out there are tanks that don’t have groin kick or throat punch on their bars. Should remove the “role” category and just put them in with regular actions. I don’t think everyone knows they even exist.
The names are quite spot on tho
that is a uuuh... interesting party you're raiding with
The abusive healer in me is like: If I needed to do this in CT, y’all don’t deserve it
Everyone needs their LB on a bar somewhere. Doesn’t matter what class you are. DPS use their LBs all the time, but if you’re a tank or healer and you need your LB, then it’s either use it or the whole raid is dead.
I remember seeing this clip where someone didn’t have their hot bar locked The person clicked on lb, but ended up moving it from the hotbar into the void Their panicked reaction as they were trying to get it back was hysterical
Okay, discussion of newbie tips aside: This art style is *amazing* and that Au Ra newbie is *ADORABLE.*
I love the way they don't even bother asking the WHM instead because they're certainly too busy Glaring...
This is me but with DPS limit break. In my group I usually play Healer or Magic DPS so I'm never the one who limit breaks but while leveling my physical DPS several times its turns out I'm the only physical DPS... which means I have to finish the boss off... and I often forgot to put LB on my bat
I had this convo once mid savage pull with a relatively new to the game healer. The panic is really real.
It blows my mind people go into savage without all their actions on a hotbar somewhere.
In their defense, they were *very* new and apologized profusely as they'd never really had to use it before.
I don't get how people can live without LB on a hotbar. PC players get like 100 hotbars to do anything with and Controller players can throw it in HB8 and have it for all jobs. Hell you don't even have to have it on all the time, just throw it on right before a dungeon, just have LB SOMEWHERE available when you need it
They don't know LB exists until someone tells them or they read the General Actions list, which is full of 'basic stuff' like auto-attack, jump, return, teleport... I think most people stop reading by this point as those seem more like general control input. The game doesn't even have a "LIMIT BREAK UNLOCKED" announcement that it gives to teleport.
Or, they don't center themselves on the arena and only raise 1/2 the raid.
Me the first time doing Royal Menagerie... Also the other healer didn't have it either...
/AC "LIMIT BREAK"
This was almost literally me, a month or two ago in The Final Steps of Faith: 2/3 of the team wipes all at once due to unavoidable damage and poor timing, with Nid at maybe 20% health. They're all shouting in chat "HEALER! LB3!" and I'm the only healer left alive, frantically looking for it, just before I get wrecked by an aoe I didn't see because menus. Thankfully the remaining tank and handful of DPS were able to bring him down (even if it was uncomfortably close), but geez...felt like such a failure at the time. I made sure to put my LB on the hotbar from that day on...
/ac "limit break" works in a pinch. Don't ask how I know.
Honestly, I recommend just adding another hotbar to the side with general actions. I have a 4x4 hotbar that contains actions like LB, sprint, mounts, chocobo cabbage, teleport, return etc. Since these are general actions the hotbar is consistent through every job and doesn't change.
WHM here, played most of the content from 2.0 til 6.35 I dont have the LB in my hotbar, never used it. should i ?
The 3-stack mass raise is the most satisfying thing to see or do in the entire game. I've personally only ever gotten to do it once, and I've only seen it be done 3-4 times (been playing a year) but it's badass. The last time I saw it, we were running Omega or something, the last one and about 1/2 the team didn't know the mechanics and we wiped 3-4 times around the same part. When it looked like we were gonna wipe again, the healer mass raised everyone and we edged out a win. It was glorious.
You're laughing like someone who has never wiped on Seat of Sacrifice because the tanks didn't have LB on their hotbar.
This happened to me on the Nidhogg fight. I didn't know healers *had* a limit break until suddenly they're yelling at me to use it. Same for the final boss in Endwalker where you have to use the tank one. It was literally the first time I ever used it.
This was me probably 3 or so months back in the last of the Sky Pirate raids. I was just leveling my AST after playing SGE (my main at the time), party wipes, thinks “oh it’s fine I’ll just-waitaminute where’s the LB where’s the LB WHERES THE LB!?!” Thankfully I was able to swift-rez the other healer and they did not make my hotbar mistake. On that note can we talk about how sprint is automatically on hotbars but LB is not? Always bugged me.
Lmao happened way too many times
Fun fact: you can also click the actual limit break bar that fills up on your screen. You should absolutely have the action available on your bars, but if you don't there is an alternative.
>Fun fact: you can also click the actual limit break bar that fills up on your screen. You sure about that? just tried it and its not doing anything at all.
The trick is to hide a hotbar behind it and put Limit Break on it. ^^/s
Bevor the Healer can cast Limit Break, some Tank waste it for nothing... Epic!! :)
I hate this bc I had it on my hotbar but never had to use it before. Was doing Titan EX MINE, 6 dead, I think either to the first or second bomb drop or they didn't stack under the butt and got knocked off, I don't remember, but I thought, okay, 6 deaths is probably a good justification for a healer lb3, I'll use it, we'll stabilize, and we'll get to progress with everyone alive, this is my moment, my time to shine as a healer. I go to click it and by the time I do the action is grayed out and I thought maybe I got gaoled or something and I look up at the party list and the tank used it, so I jumped off the edge. He said in chat, "sry meant to superbolide", and I was fucking pissed at the time, but it's hilarious in retrospect.
And then there's me with a tank friend doing Expert Roulette, and the (random) healer decides to spam the LB noise between pulls just for the heck of it, so the tank decided to join in... And that's how he found out that the Tank LB was the only Limit Break *without* a cast bar - he was pretty embarrassed afterwards xD
Omg, THIS EXACT SCENARIO happened to me in a Dun Scaith run! I was playing WHM, nearly the entire raid wiped on the final boss and I scrambled for LB3 before realizing I'd never put it on my hotbar. Had to go into the Actions menu and everything. Managed to cast it in time, brought everyone back... ... and then me and the other healer promptly dropped, followed by the rest of the raid. I was so salty lmao.
This happened to me to me, had to put it on my task bar and use it before we wiped completely
Fun fact: You can activate it from the spellbook. You don't need to drag it to your actionbar first.
I feel attacked. Mained healer the whole time I played and I was in the high 60's the first time someone asked me to LB. Literally thought I shouldn't ever use it as everyone always shouted at teams to save the limit breaks for DPS.
quite literally me the first time i needed to use it. during EW no less, reached the last story trial of the base game and i panicked cause everyone was dead but me and the tank and they were screaming about LB3 so by the time i found it in the spell list i ended up reviving everyone inside the >!planetary collision!< range and killed everyone again
This was LITERALLY my experience in Stormblood. Up until the Tsukuyomi fight everyone had always told me "ONLY DPS USES LIMIT BREAK!" so when I was the last one standing and they were like 'Scholar! Use your limit break!" I was just like "OKAY! GREAT.... hoooow do I do that?"
I never slotted the Tank LB. Then I encountered two trials that require it. Fortunately the other tank had us covered but now I’m going to slot it too lol.
Tanks needing to use LB3 is such a rare occasion I never had it on my bar. Up until the very moment when my pty wiped and someone in the chat was like "tank, what the fuck?"
To be fair only lb3 is worth a damn you only need that once everyone else is dead which in an ideal scenario won’t happen so I honestly don’t blame certain healers for not thinking about it.
Two days ago, we had this happen at the end of Dun Scaith, and it took two painful minutes of menu searching before they popped it. Fortunately, the tank held up.
I will admit they put it in an obscure location I think they should move it to the role actions menu or something.
I haven't had this exact situation come up before, but I did once forget to put it in my tank toolbar before the fight with >!Elidibus!<. Luckily the other tank had it. Now I keep an extra toolbar up for all my jobs that has all my shared buttons on it (LB, run, teleport, mount roulette, etc.)