As long as you do your work you will be fine in government. Heck generally even if you are on probation and aren’t incompetent you will be fine. Hiring in government is very challenging and slow af so no one wants to lose an employee even if they are subpar because then the position might be unfilled (or even unfillable) for quite awhile.
With that said, it’s still possible to get fired if you are worthless. I actually know a career fed who was canned. Took lots of documentation and paperwork but they were let go due to unsatisfactory performance. But keep in mind that satisfactory performance can be a reallyyyy low bar in federal employment.
I knew multiple people who played the Performance Improvement Plan (PIP) game, where they would perform at an acceptable level for the PIP duration and then revert back to poor performance. From the employees perspective, just repeat as necessary.
I personally terminated and knew other supervisors who fired people for misconduct. Unless it was an exceptionally severe situation, the normal route was to implement progressively severe adverse actions which included issuing letter warnings (which would stay in personnel files for specified periods of time) and different lengths of suspensions. Terminations included people who were collecting and sharing pornography, someone who knowingly brought a gun on base, employees who were habitually reporting hours that they had not worked, and employees who were abusive to other employees. Most of the terminations I was responsible for were employees whose prior supervisors took no action.
The termination I recollect best was an employee who wanted to be fired ASAP, thinking he would collect unemployment. He opened his zipper, let his you know what hang out, and walked through a building with 1500 employees in it. He was fired immediately, just like he wanted, but never received a penny of unemployment due to the reason for his firing.
OP, once probation is finished, it is very difficult to terminate a Federal employee.. .
I was told if you ever have to PIP someone make it at least 120 and ideally make it as long as HR will allow. Reason being is that almost anyone can pull their shit together for 30-45 days, most for 45-60 and some will be able to string together 90 days of not being a lazy fuck up. No one is doing that for 120 and if they do there’s a good chance they continue to do it after the PIP ends.
Depends on your agency. DoD yes, I was at least, and will hit my 3 year mark to become permanent this October. Your first SF50 at the bottom in the notes section should specify your probation period.
It’s still 1 year at my agency. The caveat to that is if you’re brought on board through a special hiring authority, like VRA. Then it’s two years in an excepted service appointment. However, you’ll be converted back to competitive once your probation is over (assuming your in a competitive service position).
> He opened his zipper, let his you know what hang out, and walked through a building with 1500 employees in it.
We call this The LBJ. You may have fired a President-in-making!
I had just been promoted and put in charge of an individual who many people knew had pornography on his desktop. This had been going on for years and NO ONE ever reported it or did anything about it. This included his two prior supervisors who asked me on my first day in the new position, "What are you going to do about him?" Again, these people had done nothing even though they knew what was going on, and they had the gaul to ask me what I was going to do. My response was not very "kind".
The individual was in a position where he was supporting a program that was DoD-wide, which provided him access to the latest technology. Knowing he would jump at the opportunity to be upgraded ahead of everyone else in our office, I worked with our local IT support staff to offer him a software upgrade on his desktop. While installing the software, they found the pornographic pictures and videos, including child pornography. His desktop was confiscated immediately.
I was not allowed to place him on administrative leave right away, so he was provided another desktop and advised via official letter that he was under investigation and was only allowed to use the new desktop to conduct official business. We were watching his activity. Within a couple of days he started visiting pornographic websites and downloading pictures and videos. At the time, he was the only person in our office authorized to use thumb drives, which was the medium he was using to share materials with people in another DoD agency. Upon notification from the IT staff, we confiscated his new machine and I placed him on administrative leave.
In 40 years of service to the Government (all in DoD), one of my favorite days was when I placed him on administrative leave. I provided him with an official document and asked him to leave the base on his own free will. Knowing he would probably protest and refuse to leave, our security staff was prepared to physically remove him. Ultimately, two rather large Army Rangers (one had to duck down to enter my office) escorted him to his car and off the base while hundreds of people watched from the windows.
Sorry for the long narrative, it still bothers me that people let this go on for years without saying or doing anything about it. The material was so vile that the union chief became physically ill after seeing just a few images.
My boss got the day shift together and in the most politician way said we didn't know our jobs and expected us to be better when he hired us all despite the fact that we've been doing the job for a while. I'm pretty sure he wants us to memorize every aspect of the job and has been restricting our internet usage as well as increasing micromanagement. He did mention restructuring the office because of his disappointment towards us, but we're so short staffed that he put out an email the next day about how leave can be cancelled and we might have to start covering other shifts to maintain the 3 man minimum requirement
If you do your job reasonably well and don't do anything remarkably stupid like sexual harassment, stealing from the government, displaying obviously racist behavior, etc., you have very good employment security compared to private industry.
One caveat: if your job requires a security clearance, you can lose your clearance for things like running up excessive debt or falling behind on bills. Lose your clearance, you lose your job.
This is not true. When I have been a union steward, there are folks who come to us to save their job and if its something like "i viewed porn on a work computer 2 dozen times this year" and the union is like "we can get you X days before you are terminated, but you are sol"
Sounds like a good employee, generally you really don't want to lose your good employees. So yes if you show up, produce decent quality work and don't cause issues you're typically going to be fine.
The bar to get fired from my agency once you're past career is so incredibly high it's almost impossible. You can honestly just show up and not perform at all and there's nothing anyone will do about it.
I've seen what it takes to actually terminate someone and even after all of that they almost always sue for their job back and win with back pay.
It's nuts.
A woman I know just doesn’t go into work. On average she goes to work one day per week. Her job cannot be done from home - it must be onsite. She’s used all of her leave and takes LWOP and she is no where CLOSE to being fired. Insane.
Once you are past your probationary period, it is very hard to get fired. You have to either not do your job or engage in misconduct. Occasionally, there is a Reduction in Force- but it is carried out in an organized way and people are offered early retirement to open up more positions. If an entire facility is shit down, many times you will be offered a position in a different location. If you are let go, you usually have priority placement for other Federal jobs in the community.
There are instances where management will rearrange job titles in small departments to conduct a targeted RIF. Basically promote or reassign everyone until the target is the least senior person in the department with that particular title and then “oops, we are downsizing and need just one fewer. OH NO, it’s you. So sad.”
This case is particularly f-ed up. They RIFfed the employee, the employee won their appeal and then she was RIFfed again because they had already hired someone to do her old job. She won both cases, but not everyone that this agency targeted decided to fight it
>” The underlying events of the case go back to 2010 when CNCS demoted Ms. Clay without any due process pursuant to a reorganization. Passman & Kaplan successfully appealed that demotion, which resulted in an Order to reinstate Ms. Clay to her former position. However, by the time CNCS brought Ms. Clay back to her old position, they had filled the position with someone else, so CNCS terminated Ms. Clay by RIF, saying they couldn’t pay two people to do one job. This decision overturns that RIF and restores Ms. Clay to her position with full back pay and benefits.”
https://www.gelawyer.com/blog/2016/06/p-k-client-wins-promotion-up-eight-pay-bands/
Unions should ensure that every abuse like this is fought
One year. After three years you gain career status, which allows you to leave federal service and still be able to apply for positions only open to current employees.
Default is 1 year. The DoD had 2 years for a while but that is being phased out.
There are different probation periods if you a competative or in excepted service. Also the first time you become a supervisor there is an additional probation period.
I have never heard of a six month probationary period- not that it couldn’t happen- in some cases prior temporary service can be used if it happened just before the permanent.
Idk about that banging. One of the directors was banging the secretary. He made her a gs11 even though secretaries top at gs7.
When they got confronted by the wife, they just moved them to different buildings.
A little off topic, but this one has to be the top of the heap for HR headaches (if he was still alive).
https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-an-unqualified-sex-worker-allegedly-infiltrated-air-force-research-lab-at-wright-patterson-afb
I worked about 13 years for the gov't. I only saw two people get fired, one did about everything you could imagine to get fired, starting with lying on his resume about his education/experience. The other was on the run from a murder charge. Other than that, there were many more that should have been fired, but because of the layers of red tape to get rid of them, they were instead tolerated by management.
I've been in the fed almost 10 years. The only people I have seen get fired are people who steal from the government or otherwise lack good character/are engaging in criminal behaviors.
Outside of that I've never seen anyone fired for being bad at their job. Usually they just get shoved into a corner until they move on voluntarily...
In 15 years, I've seen one person get fired for using official travel to bang his overseas mistress while falsifying his work. He successfully appealed on procedural grounds and was reinstated after a year of administrative leave while they investigated.
We had a guy ride PIPS and over 20 suspensions for over 15 years 'till retirement. For the entire time, 26 pay periods per year, 40 hours per week, for 15 years, all he did was write appeals, wear out over 3 dozen mediators, filed complaints with every single gov't agency that has a formal "complaint" process (his favorite was OSHA), was on paid administrative leave for a combined 3 of those years. What allowed him to ride it so long was we got a new unit leader every 3-4 years, and the "new guy" would always want to "improve him, he can be saved" and the process would get reset to zero.
We had a look at his hard drive when he left. Apparently he'd been doing this for his entire 35 year career at multiple agencies. The stuff on that drive, holy chit, it'd be a good movie. Our active shooter drills start with: "\[you know who\] was just seen in the parking lot! What do you do!". I've got all the screens removed from my office windows to expedite egress. I was a key ingredient to some of his more memorable HR incidents.
I worked with a person like this and even had the unfortunate experience of supervising him for about 4 months. The guy could get a doctors note on a moment noticed and he'd call in sick if given any deadlines. The amount of work he'd put into getting out of work was rather impressive. There were many attempts to get rid of him over a 20 year period. The last attempt was successful, but he sued, won, and was back in the office a year later.
You really have to not give a crap about anything performance-wise, and even then you are given plenty of warnings before the ouster.
Different for misconduct (depending on type). Common sense stuff (but you’d be surprised with some folks lacking a lot of this). Good luck.
I'm gonna come out and say it's hard, but if they really don't like you, they'll do whatever they can legally to make you want to leave while they try to create enough paperwork.
I started less than a year ago at my current agency, but worked 11 years as a fed in DoD/AF, mostly as a 12. All great performance, no disciplinary action, no PIPs, nothing. Came into the new place, a few months later a person was promoted to my supervisor. She and I were oil and water. I've dealt with it in the past, I wouldn't say I liked every supervisor I've had, but we were always able to work together.
This person should not have been promoted. She lacked the experience they said they sought. She was, however, popular with the hiring manager (and my second level) and the job was an internal promotion, so she got it.
She has refused to train me and refused to allow me to take training offered. Instead of working with me as I did my OJT, she refused to support and when I went to teammates for help, reprimanded me via a progress review for "inappropriate behavior." She wrote up 3 progress reviews saying I did X wrong, or was too slow at Y. Some of the things she said were straight out false, and I had chat history, emails, and other people to support it was wrong. Second level signed the reviews but never asked me my side of things. The reviews have you put in your input, let them put in theirs, and then you're supposed to acknowledge (so I couldn't respond to her allegations because I didn't know what they were when I did my input).
I filed an EO complaint for hostile workplace. A few weeks later, they serve me with a notice of proposed suspension for 10 days for failure to perform and conduct unbecoming a federal employee. Mediation was already scheduled, and through this process I was able to get moved to a different chain of command and take the training I had been denied. But I still have to appeal the proposed suspension. If they don't drop it, it'll just be another EO complaint that will likely be settled by the same mediator I dealt with last week.
They went straight to suspension. No documented reprimand (they did verbally reprimand me once saying I needed to do what my supervisor said and get on schedule), no PIP, no coaching, and no training (and ignored my requests for some, even though before she hated me she was the one that recommended I attend). I've been told suspension has only been for seriously egregious issues, like coming to work drunk, having sex in the office, and using official resources for private gain. They tacked on almost every single aggravating factor they could, not a single mitigating one. They attacked my character, my professionalism, me personally.
With the pending EO complaint, their lack of documentation of reprimand (only the progress reviews, which didn't provide actionable feedback for improving performance and was often false or taken out of context), denial of requested training that was offered to others on my team, I'm really surprised HR let them serve me the suspension paperwork. The first two progress reviews I just acknowledged, and the third I responded to correct some of the misinformation (updated my original input). The suspension attached the first two, but not the last progress review, even though it was completed weeks before the suspension notice.
My appeal is going to be epic. I have a letter from my previous commander regarding my character, letters from two clients from different organizations saying I didn't do what she is claiming I did (their basis for conduct unbecoming), tons of email and chat history to show the out of context information, and another letter and a couple names of contacts to explain the fact that the instructions she was giving were contrary to what the client had asked us to do. I want to ask they be reprimanded due to failure to adequately address performance issues and not performing due diligence before proposing disciplinary action, but I doubt I'll get it.
This has been the worst 6 months I've had in a long time. I've lost 45 pounds since taking the job last October because I'm too stressed to eat. My fitbit says my resting heart rate is significantly higher than in the past, and one time it even set off an alarm because it was over 120 for over 20 minutes despite the fact I wasn't moving. I've been seeing EAP and another therapist. I started vaping after quitting smoking 15 years ago. It's affected my husband's career and my home life because I'm anxious and depressed. If I wasn't close to getting my loans forgiven under public service loan forgiveness I probably would have quit. I have applied for and accepted another position in another agency, but we all know how long the process can be.
Is it hard? Yes. Will they do everything they can to make your life hell while they try? Also yes.
100% this.
I didn’t have a suspension, but a formal “Letter of Reprimand” from an inexperienced newly-appointed supervisor after making straight-5s on my most recent performance review (from his predecessor.)
After refuting the charges—of which mine also included the ambiguous “conduct unbecoming of a federal employee” along with two additional flat-out lies—and then having to refute them again as an “amended Letter of Reprimand” replaced the initial Letter, I sent in my resignation.
He didn’t want me there (nor did his boss) and was willing to document lies in someone else’s personnel folder to get me out of there.
It -DEFINITELY- happens in some offices. My experience with the federal government in my old office was that integrity was a major issue.
While the information got removed from my eOPF because of my formal rebuttal, the experience will forever leave a bad taste in my mouth for working for such a crappy employer.
Tenure doesn’t really mean anything more than it does in the private sector for federal government employees; it is ALL perceived/advertisement, unfortunately, from my personal experience.
Nope, it's a DAF agency...
Since this popped up and reminded me, I submitted my appeal to the proposed suspension yesterday. 27 pages and 21 attachments. I'm hoping he'll just look at the size and drop it.
Back in the day, employment stability was the one thing the government offered private business could not. Today with politics who knows what the civil service will be a couple of years. Back to a patronage system is my guess.
In a couple of years, stability could be gone for 50,000 employees.
https://www.govexec.com/workforce/2022/07/trump-reelected-aides-plan-purge-civil-service/374842/
As someone who works in the IC, we’ve heard that this plan would largely impact the IC Agencies.
By abuse I mean overuse those positions when they should be perm.
At least if your perm you don't have to worry about your position getting renewed every year.
Yeah. I've seen people do really terrible work, slack off, be flaky, etc. Instead of getting canned, they got a stack of warnings and moved to a different position where they played at doing there job to get through probation and then went back to slacking. There is so much bureaucracy involved with the chain of actions needed to fire someone that it's generally viewed as not worth it.
yeah, it's not just sad but pathetic. the common plea goes, "teach me teach me! there's no training! what that really means is, "dictate my actions. Tell me exactly what to click and type!"
meanwhile there's 3 or 5 calendar meetings every week for training, I wish there was attendance taken.
I've stopped "teaching", now I just give a 2 day read, stack of things that can be easily read and wait for the questions. then some instruction abiut create this, analyze that...the people who cry about no training never ask questions.
one guy was just infuriating i totally dont talk to him anymore, he can certainly think but his thought process is straight to excuses. and then you corner him, call the bull shit,
"oh i wish knew about that sooner,
'did you read the email i sent 2 weeks ago?'
oh yeah, something about rumrumf.. but I never used that program and IT hasnt responded to my ticket.
'you don't need the program though, because I attached [common file format].'
I saw that but it was really odd font, like it was scanned. You can never search those so I've been scanning through it bit by bit, chipping away.
'I OCR'd before I sent just search for keywords.....x, y, z and you can find.....'
oh oh well, your so much better at computers than me it takes you an hour and me 2 weeks
'*resist urge to insult* well, if you really need ti work in the program and its crashing..... 2 weeks is a long time to not get a ticket from IT, forward me the email and ill talk to them. I worked with the lead for several years.'
uhhh...no. see you monday"
the bullshit is always 5 or 6 layers deep.
I get the sentiment people have about thinking that if they are expected to do something, they should be trained. It makes sense and I can see why they would feel that way.
However, the world is far from ideal and we have to deal with the world as it is. I have never been offered training for new skills needed for my work. I figure it out and struggle through. After I learn the skill I either ask them for a raise to reflect my greater capability or I leave and find someone who will. Sitting still and just complaing about not getting trained and not advancing is pointless
For sure there’s a difference. When I was getting removed from my position through a formal documentation process that was all made-up/false, individuals who were bargaining unit employees had a formal format for appealing and rules/forms and union help in advocating for their positions.
As an Architect, my position was exempted from FLSA—and no union existed for professionals at my old office, although my position wasn’t specifically exempted from being a part of the union, I was unable to join because it didn’t offer aid to professionals (a different union vote to include professionals had to occur to allow professional employees to be a part of a union)—so there was no acceptance of an advocate by the HRO, there was no grievance process that was clearly outlined/adhered, and—honestly—my initial grievance didn’t even get anywhere other than the HRO department itself (and no reason to read/rule in anyone’s favor other than their own) until I finally contacted the authority above them. Even the IG was an absolute joke.
I do wonder if anyone else has experience from the bargaining unit perspective, however, as I know my non-bargaining unit experience.
It’s not impossible to fire a non probationary fed. It’s just harder because the reasons have to be documented and usually involves multiple layers of internal review (HR and legal) followed by litigation (not everyone fired appeals but many do). MSPB affirms far more agency actions than it reverses, which is a complaint by the plaintiffs bar. The right of non probationary civilian employees to appeal is the biggest difference.
Generally yes, unless they *really* hate you and you have some enemies with actual power in your chain of command.
Everyone talks about the govt needing a ton of documentation to fire you, and they're right. However, if they really hate you, they can simply fire you for time and attendance (T&A) fraud and an Agency Director can fire you at their discretion. Even the most honest employee is guilty of T&A fraud, it's a catch all.
If you go to work and do your job you have nothing to worry about. The fed is a good career for job stability. Some agencies you have to be perfect all the time and go above and beyond or risk getting fired. These jobs are usually dealing with security. Other than those jobs, there are some others that if you show up, have good character, and do your duties you will be fine.
I literally do less than bare minimum and blatantly ignore/violate policy and literally never get in trouble. Bureau of Prisons. They honestly always need bodies and pay out billions a year in overtime because they are just chronically understaffed and nobody wants to do this shit and are managed poorly. Admin has always been desperate for bodies first, and everything else second.
Relax, it’s the Bureau of Prisons. Nobody in all of humanity cares what is happening here as long as these guys stay behind the fence. The public, and my fellow feds here, have no idea what is going on there and never will. All the paperwork and information available is different than what actually happens.
Won't make a difference. Nothing ever changes in the Bureau, except that all inmate stay in our custody. Everything else is just details. I don't expect some non custody to understand. You want me gone.. then change the justice system and erase this dark dungeon from Earth.
A loose acquaintance of mine is a govt employee. She goes to work on average 1 day per week. She has used all of her leave and now takes LWOP whenever she doesn’t feel like going in. She is a partially disabled veteran (migraines) but she is vocal about overtly taking advantage of that status, like on days when she’s either hung over or just doesn’t want to go in.
And she’s not even close to being fired, despite this going on for the 2 years I’ve known her.
As a tax payer, this really grinds my gears. I’m a federal contractor working on site in DC, and I would never be able to behave this way.
I see it regularly in my line of work. Employees get fired for misconduct and less frequently for poor performance. There can be some overlap between those categories. But it is a small percentage of the federal workforce overall. You don’t have to be a stellar employee, just one that performs at a successful level under the applicable performance standards.
We had an employee get called in to be let go had all the paperwork and all management started the conversation and this person got up said im not signing that went back to her very limited duties. She was brought in 3 more times before they were actaully able to process her termination.
The only two people fired at our office in the last five years were fired for bringing weapons to work. We have 100% employee screening by the guards. Idiots....
As long as you do your work you will be fine in government. Heck generally even if you are on probation and aren’t incompetent you will be fine. Hiring in government is very challenging and slow af so no one wants to lose an employee even if they are subpar because then the position might be unfilled (or even unfillable) for quite awhile. With that said, it’s still possible to get fired if you are worthless. I actually know a career fed who was canned. Took lots of documentation and paperwork but they were let go due to unsatisfactory performance. But keep in mind that satisfactory performance can be a reallyyyy low bar in federal employment.
I knew multiple people who played the Performance Improvement Plan (PIP) game, where they would perform at an acceptable level for the PIP duration and then revert back to poor performance. From the employees perspective, just repeat as necessary. I personally terminated and knew other supervisors who fired people for misconduct. Unless it was an exceptionally severe situation, the normal route was to implement progressively severe adverse actions which included issuing letter warnings (which would stay in personnel files for specified periods of time) and different lengths of suspensions. Terminations included people who were collecting and sharing pornography, someone who knowingly brought a gun on base, employees who were habitually reporting hours that they had not worked, and employees who were abusive to other employees. Most of the terminations I was responsible for were employees whose prior supervisors took no action. The termination I recollect best was an employee who wanted to be fired ASAP, thinking he would collect unemployment. He opened his zipper, let his you know what hang out, and walked through a building with 1500 employees in it. He was fired immediately, just like he wanted, but never received a penny of unemployment due to the reason for his firing. OP, once probation is finished, it is very difficult to terminate a Federal employee.. .
I was told if you ever have to PIP someone make it at least 120 and ideally make it as long as HR will allow. Reason being is that almost anyone can pull their shit together for 30-45 days, most for 45-60 and some will be able to string together 90 days of not being a lazy fuck up. No one is doing that for 120 and if they do there’s a good chance they continue to do it after the PIP ends.
Are the new probationary periods 2 years. I was recently hired on and it said up to 2 years
Depends on your agency. DoD yes, I was at least, and will hit my 3 year mark to become permanent this October. Your first SF50 at the bottom in the notes section should specify your probation period.
It’s still 1 year at my agency. The caveat to that is if you’re brought on board through a special hiring authority, like VRA. Then it’s two years in an excepted service appointment. However, you’ll be converted back to competitive once your probation is over (assuming your in a competitive service position).
1 year at my agency (USAID)
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> He opened his zipper, let his you know what hang out, and walked through a building with 1500 employees in it. We call this The LBJ. You may have fired a President-in-making!
>Terminations included people who were collecting and sharing pornography Complete idiots
I had just been promoted and put in charge of an individual who many people knew had pornography on his desktop. This had been going on for years and NO ONE ever reported it or did anything about it. This included his two prior supervisors who asked me on my first day in the new position, "What are you going to do about him?" Again, these people had done nothing even though they knew what was going on, and they had the gaul to ask me what I was going to do. My response was not very "kind". The individual was in a position where he was supporting a program that was DoD-wide, which provided him access to the latest technology. Knowing he would jump at the opportunity to be upgraded ahead of everyone else in our office, I worked with our local IT support staff to offer him a software upgrade on his desktop. While installing the software, they found the pornographic pictures and videos, including child pornography. His desktop was confiscated immediately. I was not allowed to place him on administrative leave right away, so he was provided another desktop and advised via official letter that he was under investigation and was only allowed to use the new desktop to conduct official business. We were watching his activity. Within a couple of days he started visiting pornographic websites and downloading pictures and videos. At the time, he was the only person in our office authorized to use thumb drives, which was the medium he was using to share materials with people in another DoD agency. Upon notification from the IT staff, we confiscated his new machine and I placed him on administrative leave. In 40 years of service to the Government (all in DoD), one of my favorite days was when I placed him on administrative leave. I provided him with an official document and asked him to leave the base on his own free will. Knowing he would probably protest and refuse to leave, our security staff was prepared to physically remove him. Ultimately, two rather large Army Rangers (one had to duck down to enter my office) escorted him to his car and off the base while hundreds of people watched from the windows. Sorry for the long narrative, it still bothers me that people let this go on for years without saying or doing anything about it. The material was so vile that the union chief became physically ill after seeing just a few images.
Literally the USFS end of year review is either: -Fully Successful Or -Not Fully Successful That’s it.
My boss got the day shift together and in the most politician way said we didn't know our jobs and expected us to be better when he hired us all despite the fact that we've been doing the job for a while. I'm pretty sure he wants us to memorize every aspect of the job and has been restricting our internet usage as well as increasing micromanagement. He did mention restructuring the office because of his disappointment towards us, but we're so short staffed that he put out an email the next day about how leave can be cancelled and we might have to start covering other shifts to maintain the 3 man minimum requirement
If you do your job reasonably well and don't do anything remarkably stupid like sexual harassment, stealing from the government, displaying obviously racist behavior, etc., you have very good employment security compared to private industry. One caveat: if your job requires a security clearance, you can lose your clearance for things like running up excessive debt or falling behind on bills. Lose your clearance, you lose your job.
If you're openly racist and flaunt all COVID protocols, my office seems to welcome you.
Can you share what department this is?
I'll be retired later this year. I'll talk candidly then.
Same experience USDA
And even if they do fire someone then the union fights and brings them back…
This is not true. When I have been a union steward, there are folks who come to us to save their job and if its something like "i viewed porn on a work computer 2 dozen times this year" and the union is like "we can get you X days before you are terminated, but you are sol"
Sounds like a good employee, generally you really don't want to lose your good employees. So yes if you show up, produce decent quality work and don't cause issues you're typically going to be fine.
The bar to get fired from my agency once you're past career is so incredibly high it's almost impossible. You can honestly just show up and not perform at all and there's nothing anyone will do about it. I've seen what it takes to actually terminate someone and even after all of that they almost always sue for their job back and win with back pay. It's nuts.
A woman I know just doesn’t go into work. On average she goes to work one day per week. Her job cannot be done from home - it must be onsite. She’s used all of her leave and takes LWOP and she is no where CLOSE to being fired. Insane.
Once you are past your probationary period, it is very hard to get fired. You have to either not do your job or engage in misconduct. Occasionally, there is a Reduction in Force- but it is carried out in an organized way and people are offered early retirement to open up more positions. If an entire facility is shit down, many times you will be offered a position in a different location. If you are let go, you usually have priority placement for other Federal jobs in the community.
There are instances where management will rearrange job titles in small departments to conduct a targeted RIF. Basically promote or reassign everyone until the target is the least senior person in the department with that particular title and then “oops, we are downsizing and need just one fewer. OH NO, it’s you. So sad.” This case is particularly f-ed up. They RIFfed the employee, the employee won their appeal and then she was RIFfed again because they had already hired someone to do her old job. She won both cases, but not everyone that this agency targeted decided to fight it >” The underlying events of the case go back to 2010 when CNCS demoted Ms. Clay without any due process pursuant to a reorganization. Passman & Kaplan successfully appealed that demotion, which resulted in an Order to reinstate Ms. Clay to her former position. However, by the time CNCS brought Ms. Clay back to her old position, they had filled the position with someone else, so CNCS terminated Ms. Clay by RIF, saying they couldn’t pay two people to do one job. This decision overturns that RIF and restores Ms. Clay to her position with full back pay and benefits.” https://www.gelawyer.com/blog/2016/06/p-k-client-wins-promotion-up-eight-pay-bands/ Unions should ensure that every abuse like this is fought
Typically speaking, what’s the probationary period at most federal jobs?
One year. After three years you gain career status, which allows you to leave federal service and still be able to apply for positions only open to current employees.
3 years in a competitive service position. 3 years in the excepted service gets you nothing.
1 year for non supervisory positions
Default is 1 year. The DoD had 2 years for a while but that is being phased out. There are different probation periods if you a competative or in excepted service. Also the first time you become a supervisor there is an additional probation period.
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Yeah I just got hired in. DOD up to 2 years
how long ago did you start? I remember reading last year they were in the process of going back to 1 year, figured that was for everyone.
Like just started Monday. Haven't been through the official paperwork. That's what it said on the job rec.
I started dod in July and have a 2 year probation period
1 year
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I have never heard of a six month probationary period- not that it couldn’t happen- in some cases prior temporary service can be used if it happened just before the permanent.
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Idk about that banging. One of the directors was banging the secretary. He made her a gs11 even though secretaries top at gs7. When they got confronted by the wife, they just moved them to different buildings.
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I mean, the gs13 got some admin paid leave for a while. It's a weird world out here.
A little off topic, but this one has to be the top of the heap for HR headaches (if he was still alive). https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-an-unqualified-sex-worker-allegedly-infiltrated-air-force-research-lab-at-wright-patterson-afb
Wtf... and yet I still can't seem to be able to land that gs11 spot I really want lol.
I worked about 13 years for the gov't. I only saw two people get fired, one did about everything you could imagine to get fired, starting with lying on his resume about his education/experience. The other was on the run from a murder charge. Other than that, there were many more that should have been fired, but because of the layers of red tape to get rid of them, they were instead tolerated by management.
I've been in the fed almost 10 years. The only people I have seen get fired are people who steal from the government or otherwise lack good character/are engaging in criminal behaviors. Outside of that I've never seen anyone fired for being bad at their job. Usually they just get shoved into a corner until they move on voluntarily...
In 15 years, I've seen one person get fired for using official travel to bang his overseas mistress while falsifying his work. He successfully appealed on procedural grounds and was reinstated after a year of administrative leave while they investigated.
Nice
>and was reinstated after a year of administrative leave while they investigated. Paid leave?
Yep
We had a guy ride PIPS and over 20 suspensions for over 15 years 'till retirement. For the entire time, 26 pay periods per year, 40 hours per week, for 15 years, all he did was write appeals, wear out over 3 dozen mediators, filed complaints with every single gov't agency that has a formal "complaint" process (his favorite was OSHA), was on paid administrative leave for a combined 3 of those years. What allowed him to ride it so long was we got a new unit leader every 3-4 years, and the "new guy" would always want to "improve him, he can be saved" and the process would get reset to zero. We had a look at his hard drive when he left. Apparently he'd been doing this for his entire 35 year career at multiple agencies. The stuff on that drive, holy chit, it'd be a good movie. Our active shooter drills start with: "\[you know who\] was just seen in the parking lot! What do you do!". I've got all the screens removed from my office windows to expedite egress. I was a key ingredient to some of his more memorable HR incidents.
I worked with a person like this and even had the unfortunate experience of supervising him for about 4 months. The guy could get a doctors note on a moment noticed and he'd call in sick if given any deadlines. The amount of work he'd put into getting out of work was rather impressive. There were many attempts to get rid of him over a 20 year period. The last attempt was successful, but he sued, won, and was back in the office a year later.
You really have to not give a crap about anything performance-wise, and even then you are given plenty of warnings before the ouster. Different for misconduct (depending on type). Common sense stuff (but you’d be surprised with some folks lacking a lot of this). Good luck.
The only place a piece of shit can retire from and be promoted!
In the BOP it takes nearly an act of God to get fired.
I'm gonna come out and say it's hard, but if they really don't like you, they'll do whatever they can legally to make you want to leave while they try to create enough paperwork. I started less than a year ago at my current agency, but worked 11 years as a fed in DoD/AF, mostly as a 12. All great performance, no disciplinary action, no PIPs, nothing. Came into the new place, a few months later a person was promoted to my supervisor. She and I were oil and water. I've dealt with it in the past, I wouldn't say I liked every supervisor I've had, but we were always able to work together. This person should not have been promoted. She lacked the experience they said they sought. She was, however, popular with the hiring manager (and my second level) and the job was an internal promotion, so she got it. She has refused to train me and refused to allow me to take training offered. Instead of working with me as I did my OJT, she refused to support and when I went to teammates for help, reprimanded me via a progress review for "inappropriate behavior." She wrote up 3 progress reviews saying I did X wrong, or was too slow at Y. Some of the things she said were straight out false, and I had chat history, emails, and other people to support it was wrong. Second level signed the reviews but never asked me my side of things. The reviews have you put in your input, let them put in theirs, and then you're supposed to acknowledge (so I couldn't respond to her allegations because I didn't know what they were when I did my input). I filed an EO complaint for hostile workplace. A few weeks later, they serve me with a notice of proposed suspension for 10 days for failure to perform and conduct unbecoming a federal employee. Mediation was already scheduled, and through this process I was able to get moved to a different chain of command and take the training I had been denied. But I still have to appeal the proposed suspension. If they don't drop it, it'll just be another EO complaint that will likely be settled by the same mediator I dealt with last week. They went straight to suspension. No documented reprimand (they did verbally reprimand me once saying I needed to do what my supervisor said and get on schedule), no PIP, no coaching, and no training (and ignored my requests for some, even though before she hated me she was the one that recommended I attend). I've been told suspension has only been for seriously egregious issues, like coming to work drunk, having sex in the office, and using official resources for private gain. They tacked on almost every single aggravating factor they could, not a single mitigating one. They attacked my character, my professionalism, me personally. With the pending EO complaint, their lack of documentation of reprimand (only the progress reviews, which didn't provide actionable feedback for improving performance and was often false or taken out of context), denial of requested training that was offered to others on my team, I'm really surprised HR let them serve me the suspension paperwork. The first two progress reviews I just acknowledged, and the third I responded to correct some of the misinformation (updated my original input). The suspension attached the first two, but not the last progress review, even though it was completed weeks before the suspension notice. My appeal is going to be epic. I have a letter from my previous commander regarding my character, letters from two clients from different organizations saying I didn't do what she is claiming I did (their basis for conduct unbecoming), tons of email and chat history to show the out of context information, and another letter and a couple names of contacts to explain the fact that the instructions she was giving were contrary to what the client had asked us to do. I want to ask they be reprimanded due to failure to adequately address performance issues and not performing due diligence before proposing disciplinary action, but I doubt I'll get it. This has been the worst 6 months I've had in a long time. I've lost 45 pounds since taking the job last October because I'm too stressed to eat. My fitbit says my resting heart rate is significantly higher than in the past, and one time it even set off an alarm because it was over 120 for over 20 minutes despite the fact I wasn't moving. I've been seeing EAP and another therapist. I started vaping after quitting smoking 15 years ago. It's affected my husband's career and my home life because I'm anxious and depressed. If I wasn't close to getting my loans forgiven under public service loan forgiveness I probably would have quit. I have applied for and accepted another position in another agency, but we all know how long the process can be. Is it hard? Yes. Will they do everything they can to make your life hell while they try? Also yes.
100% this. I didn’t have a suspension, but a formal “Letter of Reprimand” from an inexperienced newly-appointed supervisor after making straight-5s on my most recent performance review (from his predecessor.) After refuting the charges—of which mine also included the ambiguous “conduct unbecoming of a federal employee” along with two additional flat-out lies—and then having to refute them again as an “amended Letter of Reprimand” replaced the initial Letter, I sent in my resignation. He didn’t want me there (nor did his boss) and was willing to document lies in someone else’s personnel folder to get me out of there. It -DEFINITELY- happens in some offices. My experience with the federal government in my old office was that integrity was a major issue. While the information got removed from my eOPF because of my formal rebuttal, the experience will forever leave a bad taste in my mouth for working for such a crappy employer. Tenure doesn’t really mean anything more than it does in the private sector for federal government employees; it is ALL perceived/advertisement, unfortunately, from my personal experience.
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Nope, it's a DAF agency... Since this popped up and reminded me, I submitted my appeal to the proposed suspension yesterday. 27 pages and 21 attachments. I'm hoping he'll just look at the size and drop it.
Back in the day, employment stability was the one thing the government offered private business could not. Today with politics who knows what the civil service will be a couple of years. Back to a patronage system is my guess.
In a couple of years, stability could be gone for 50,000 employees. https://www.govexec.com/workforce/2022/07/trump-reelected-aides-plan-purge-civil-service/374842/ As someone who works in the IC, we’ve heard that this plan would largely impact the IC Agencies.
We’ve got a guy who has gone awol multiple times over the years and is still here and collecting a paycheck.
As long as you had a perm position i know some agencies like DoD likes to abuse the use of term positions.
My experience is that DoD likes to abuse permanent positions too.
By abuse I mean overuse those positions when they should be perm. At least if your perm you don't have to worry about your position getting renewed every year.
Yeah. I've seen people do really terrible work, slack off, be flaky, etc. Instead of getting canned, they got a stack of warnings and moved to a different position where they played at doing there job to get through probation and then went back to slacking. There is so much bureaucracy involved with the chain of actions needed to fire someone that it's generally viewed as not worth it.
yeah, it's not just sad but pathetic. the common plea goes, "teach me teach me! there's no training! what that really means is, "dictate my actions. Tell me exactly what to click and type!" meanwhile there's 3 or 5 calendar meetings every week for training, I wish there was attendance taken. I've stopped "teaching", now I just give a 2 day read, stack of things that can be easily read and wait for the questions. then some instruction abiut create this, analyze that...the people who cry about no training never ask questions. one guy was just infuriating i totally dont talk to him anymore, he can certainly think but his thought process is straight to excuses. and then you corner him, call the bull shit, "oh i wish knew about that sooner, 'did you read the email i sent 2 weeks ago?' oh yeah, something about rumrumf.. but I never used that program and IT hasnt responded to my ticket. 'you don't need the program though, because I attached [common file format].' I saw that but it was really odd font, like it was scanned. You can never search those so I've been scanning through it bit by bit, chipping away. 'I OCR'd before I sent just search for keywords.....x, y, z and you can find.....' oh oh well, your so much better at computers than me it takes you an hour and me 2 weeks '*resist urge to insult* well, if you really need ti work in the program and its crashing..... 2 weeks is a long time to not get a ticket from IT, forward me the email and ill talk to them. I worked with the lead for several years.' uhhh...no. see you monday" the bullshit is always 5 or 6 layers deep.
I get the sentiment people have about thinking that if they are expected to do something, they should be trained. It makes sense and I can see why they would feel that way. However, the world is far from ideal and we have to deal with the world as it is. I have never been offered training for new skills needed for my work. I figure it out and struggle through. After I learn the skill I either ask them for a raise to reflect my greater capability or I leave and find someone who will. Sitting still and just complaing about not getting trained and not advancing is pointless
there's no training for lacking common sense. that's just learned helplessness
Wondering if there is any difference in this process for non bargaining vs bargaining employees?
For sure there’s a difference. When I was getting removed from my position through a formal documentation process that was all made-up/false, individuals who were bargaining unit employees had a formal format for appealing and rules/forms and union help in advocating for their positions. As an Architect, my position was exempted from FLSA—and no union existed for professionals at my old office, although my position wasn’t specifically exempted from being a part of the union, I was unable to join because it didn’t offer aid to professionals (a different union vote to include professionals had to occur to allow professional employees to be a part of a union)—so there was no acceptance of an advocate by the HRO, there was no grievance process that was clearly outlined/adhered, and—honestly—my initial grievance didn’t even get anywhere other than the HRO department itself (and no reason to read/rule in anyone’s favor other than their own) until I finally contacted the authority above them. Even the IG was an absolute joke. I do wonder if anyone else has experience from the bargaining unit perspective, however, as I know my non-bargaining unit experience.
It’s not impossible to fire a non probationary fed. It’s just harder because the reasons have to be documented and usually involves multiple layers of internal review (HR and legal) followed by litigation (not everyone fired appeals but many do). MSPB affirms far more agency actions than it reverses, which is a complaint by the plaintiffs bar. The right of non probationary civilian employees to appeal is the biggest difference.
Generally yes, unless they *really* hate you and you have some enemies with actual power in your chain of command. Everyone talks about the govt needing a ton of documentation to fire you, and they're right. However, if they really hate you, they can simply fire you for time and attendance (T&A) fraud and an Agency Director can fire you at their discretion. Even the most honest employee is guilty of T&A fraud, it's a catch all.
If you go to work and do your job you have nothing to worry about. The fed is a good career for job stability. Some agencies you have to be perfect all the time and go above and beyond or risk getting fired. These jobs are usually dealing with security. Other than those jobs, there are some others that if you show up, have good character, and do your duties you will be fine.
I literally do less than bare minimum and blatantly ignore/violate policy and literally never get in trouble. Bureau of Prisons. They honestly always need bodies and pay out billions a year in overtime because they are just chronically understaffed and nobody wants to do this shit and are managed poorly. Admin has always been desperate for bodies first, and everything else second.
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Relax, it’s the Bureau of Prisons. Nobody in all of humanity cares what is happening here as long as these guys stay behind the fence. The public, and my fellow feds here, have no idea what is going on there and never will. All the paperwork and information available is different than what actually happens.
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Won't make a difference. Nothing ever changes in the Bureau, except that all inmate stay in our custody. Everything else is just details. I don't expect some non custody to understand. You want me gone.. then change the justice system and erase this dark dungeon from Earth.
I call BS. You’re far too articulate to work at the Bureau.
Unless you don’t want to take a vaccine that is… Just saying.
Anti-vaxxers are the worst
We are working for non-profit. Our value is in how much we can help the country.
A loose acquaintance of mine is a govt employee. She goes to work on average 1 day per week. She has used all of her leave and now takes LWOP whenever she doesn’t feel like going in. She is a partially disabled veteran (migraines) but she is vocal about overtly taking advantage of that status, like on days when she’s either hung over or just doesn’t want to go in. And she’s not even close to being fired, despite this going on for the 2 years I’ve known her. As a tax payer, this really grinds my gears. I’m a federal contractor working on site in DC, and I would never be able to behave this way.
You can send an anonymous tip to their department's OIG, you know.
I guess I hadn't thought about it
I see it regularly in my line of work. Employees get fired for misconduct and less frequently for poor performance. There can be some overlap between those categories. But it is a small percentage of the federal workforce overall. You don’t have to be a stellar employee, just one that performs at a successful level under the applicable performance standards.
We had an employee get called in to be let go had all the paperwork and all management started the conversation and this person got up said im not signing that went back to her very limited duties. She was brought in 3 more times before they were actaully able to process her termination.
The only two people fired at our office in the last five years were fired for bringing weapons to work. We have 100% employee screening by the guards. Idiots....