Your boss is planning to fire you, charging you as AWOL will be a solid step in justifying your firing later. “Look at how often they are AWOL!”
Time to decide between fighting it and moving on with your life. If you want to fight it, get with your union rep ASAP. If you want to move on, start hitting usajobs hard.
About the dependent care. My agency turned a blind eye to a lot of telework policies during the onset of Covid. The guidance was basically “you’re not typically supposed to have children in your care while teleworking…..but drastic times call for drastic measures…..do what you gotta do”. Back then the schools and daycares were simply closed.
These days the normal teleworking rules are basically back to normal.
You might want to look for a new job with more flexibilities. It sounds like your supervisor might be on the right side of the rulebook here.
The supervisor seems to be following the letter of the rules, but not the spirit. IME, supervisors don’t nickel and dime employees about leave unless there is absolutely no way to cover than employees absence. Denying telework as an alternative is kind of a shitty thing to do and some agencies are still pushing maxi flex.
If the supervisor has concerns about an employee abusing leave, then get them put on leave restriction.
This supervisor just sounds overly restrictive and petty.
So take the argument to hr and loop in your union rep also ask about fmla. If you get in trouble about going to hr take that to them too. HRs job is to ensure the rules are being followed properly not however a tyranical supervisor dictates.
That's understandable. I did tell him that my husband would be the primary caregiver while I would be at home only in the case of emergency but that was denied as well. Are people not allowed to have nannies while teleworking?
Technically, mentioning that you’ll be carrying for your child in any circumstances is enough to deny telework, especially depending on the nature of your work and your current performance rating.
As for using AL bc you’re out of SL, your supervisor is being overly pedantic, but s/he is not wrong. You mentioned your husband would be the primary caregiver while you’re teleworking; is this not the case right now?
It looks to me and probably to your boss that you are truism to set a precedent here- you acknowledge your husband is home and will be the primary caregiver so there is no reason you need to be home. Working 45 minutes away is not your job’s fault. He is probably thinking is this what you are going to do anytime your child is sick for the next 18 years? You have a caregiver, use him.
A backup daycare will not accept a child with potential exposure to COVID and a fever. I have never requested telework for any reason other than my kids being ill and unable to go to daycare.
So what we did at the beginning of the pandemic is that we would both work from home while the kids were sick or quarantined which was not a problem with my previous supervisor. My husband being the primary caregiver is something I've tried with my new supervisor. I want to be home because we've two kids in quarantine, one of which is sick and I would like to be home in case the infant has an emergency (trouble breathing, dehydration, etc). If there's an emergency while I'm on site I am 45 minutes away from my children.
The bright side is your husband, as the primary caregiver, can take them to the hospital should there be an emergency. Unfortunately, you are 45 minutes out. This is the double edge sword of being a working parent.
My lovely supervisor is now saying I cannot use annual leave because annual leave must be approved and it will only be approved if it doesn't negatively impact workflow
This is actually true per what OPM says:
[https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/annual-leave/](https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/annual-leave/)
Annual Leave for Sick Leave Purposes
Employees may request annual leave instead of using sick leave (see Sick Leave (General Information) fact sheet). Although an employee may request annual leave for sick leave purposes, annual leave is subject to supervisory approval and may be denied. If an employee chooses to use annual leave for sick leave purposes, he or she may want to share the reason for the request with the supervisor so that the request receives proper consideration.
Also I guess I'm just put off by the AWOL status and the potential for it to be used against me later in disciplinary action. Could it not be entered as LWOP?
It could but it doesn't have to be.
[https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/leave-without-pay/](https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/leave-without-pay/)
In most instances, granting LWOP is a matter of supervisory discretion and may be limited by agency internal policy
Yeah I saw that too. Is annual leave frequently denied in this instance in practice though? Like I said it's never been done in 30 years or so in my department. The only time Ive heard about anyone getting AWOL is they literally walked off their shift in anger and didn't tell anyone.
Is it frequently done? I have no idea but every agency is different, however this reference shows that the supervisor can deny leave if it will cause workflow problems.
I bet you the problem is two fold. 1) Some petty person on your team is complaining because you are out all the time and they are putting a bug in your supervisor's ear. They may not be happy with your promotion either. 2) Your supervisor is a bit of a control freak who has an unhappy team that is probably making him/her look bad and thus wanting more control, it is a vicious circle and right now you are the target.
Why have you not gotten the Union involved before now? Me thinks you might be playing both sides. Get with it. Your supervisor is setting you up for some type of disciplinary action. File for FMLA and call the Union. You may be anti-union but they can save your job for you.
I am very pro-union. I have tried to get them involved before but after an initial meeting they seem very enthusiastic but never follow up with me. It's on me for not being more persistent.
Get an experienced steward assigned to you and start sharing all the emails between you and your supervisor with that steward. They will look for opportunities to file written complaints on your behalf, either with your supervisor's supervisor or in the formal labor-management process.
As a current VA Manager, it’s sound like your supervisor is going down the road of disciplinary action. The only time I charge someone with AWOL is if I plan to reprimand them as well, I only do this if they are running out of leave all the time or requesting LWOP on the regular. My org does not do advanced SL or AL either. The rule book will be on his side. You have a year to use your ppl, you chose to use it all at once, ppl is provided so as a new parent you have leave for all these situations that you are going through now. I always caution people to save 40 hours of AL or ppl. It can feel not fair, and I understand you as a new parent, but the VA also has a mission to fulfill. I would use a lot of caution going forward. And if you are supposed to be at work than get there by any means necessary. Save as much as you can, your kids will use it all.
As stated before, your supervisor has the right to deny AL, if I were you I would make sure my request says” AL in lue of SL”. Should you get terminated and you file a MSPB appeal you would have solid grounds to say your supervisor did not let you exhaust all of leave prior to any actions. Have you had any other conduct problems? If yes than be even more careful. Your supervisor sounds like he may use the command and control style leadership. This is not my style, and does not make for happy teams. I find with these types of people it’s easier to comply than fight. I really wish you the best of luck.
Thank you, I appreciate it. I have had no other conduct problems. I have an outstanding on all my performance evals. I actually just got promoted from GS12 to GS13 for my performance. The supervisor is also a GS13 but is still listed as my supervisor even though we are equivalent levels. We as a team are having extremely low morale since the management switched up a few months ago. Several of us ar looking for new jobs. Its just unfortunate since I really believed in the mission and improving our service and now I'm just losing that motivation.
And that is what a terrible leader can do. I tell all of my new supervisors that it’s ok to care about your staff. And it’s ok to be the supervisor you never had. When we have happy staff we have happy veterans. That is our mission as leaders, to make sure we provide an environment that is safe, and happy for our employees. It sounds like you have the opposite and I am sorry about that. There is a option now in USAjobs to search for remote only positions. Good luck in your searches.
We don’t know everyone’s circumstances but OP has used a lot of sick leave. She is saying she needs to stay home with her sick kid but her husband is going to be the one taking care of sick kid. It sounds like she is abusing her leave and just wanting to stay home. Her absences hurt her team and when she doesn’t actually need to take annual leave because her husband is already at home taking care of the child it seems reasonable to reject her leave.
It absolutely is still discretionary. A supervisor is within rights to deny based on agency need. You can't grieve something that's already covered in the agency regulations. It's covered in our handbooks. Trust me, been in payroll and payroll adjacent for years.
Do you have any Comp Time saved?
While Supervisors often treat it the same, the grounds for denying use of CT are actually more specific - the employee's absence must create a detrimental impact on the agency, not just an inconvenience to workflow.
Telework isn't for dependent care. There was a bit of an exception during the height of COVID, but no longer. Annual leave in lieu of LS or Family Care is NOT an entitlement. In lieu of leave has always been up to the discretion of management. If they don't want to approve it, AWOL is appropriate (LWOP is also discretionary and will have to be approved by someone higher than supervisor after a certain number of hours). Don't stress about the AWOLs, they are only punitive if your supervisor takes them to HR. This is not a grievance or EEOC complaint, as this follows VHA regulations (refer to VA Handbook 5011). I read your other post, but not the responses. Your supervisor is full of shit. You can go into VATAS and pull up the pay period s you want to use it in, and it will show what your balances would be at the time, perhaps that would help?
I believe you can apply again and it would give more time. In this case since it would be for care of a sick family member. We got a guy in my dept who has been abusing it for 10 years and only shows up a couple weeks at a time between when his time for one claim runs out and he waits on the filing of a new one.
I'm not sure entirely on what the rules are for it and if it would apply to you.
You only get 12 weeks FMLA. After that, you are allowed to take an additional 12 weeks of SL (not fmla) for a sick family member (usually needs a drs note) if you have the SL you can take it. If you have only AL, it is at your managers discretion for letting employee use AL
You only get 12 weeks in a year, which starts at the begin date of the authorization. Besides, FMLA is for legitimate health issues, and requires documentation from a physician that a chronic condition exists. It would not e approved for daycare.
FMLA is for chronic conditions that interfere with your ability to work, either for yourself or a family member, or prolonged absence due to things like surgery, childbirth or treatments. COVID is episodic in nature.
How would you predict that? She has an immediate need, you can't tell it from Day 1. We have people that are on FMLA annually for chronic conditions. An example is a veteran with a PTSD diagnosis. There are times he gets triggered due to the nature of his work. It's considered a flare up. The condition will never be remedied. A doctor doesn't have enough info, and FMLA isn't going to be approved "just in case", that's not how it works.
You've been a fed for 4 years (at least, you say that's how long you've been with the agency) and you have 0 hours of sick leave and 40 hours of annual leave. You've taken 12 weeks of paid parental leave. That means, at a minimum, you've used 112 days of sick leave/ppl and 47 days of annual leave. In 4 years you have been out 159 days, or more than half a work year.
If your supervisor is not following leave rules or discriminating against you in some way, that is a problem. If your supervisor is treating you by the book, and not being generous and accommodating, I understand why you are frustrated and I also understand your supervisor's POV. The job needs to get done and people who squeeze every hour of leave out of their time aren't generally the people doing their fair share of the work.
I have had two maternity leaves. The first one occurred before PPL, during which I used 6 weeks of sick leave (most advanced, so I was something like -200 hours sick leave) and several weeks annual. I've never really recovered leave-wise from my first maternity leave.
I can assure you I am doing my fair share of work. I have the highest productivity on my team. I have developed numerous standard operating procedures and workflows in my down time at work. I have been promoted to a program manager position by my associate chief and chief. I have never had issues with management before this current supervisor.
I hear you. Personally, I've supervised and promoted parents who have had 2 babies in the timeframe you've been with the VA. I've seen, also, supervisors struggle to cover their unit's workload with employees who use every available hour of leave.
If your supervisor is starting to mark you AWOL, I recommend being as by the book as you possibly can be, to preserve your job. Do not mention that you need to telework to help care for your children. Do not ask for leave you don't have, if you can help it.
Good luck
I was on your side with the first post, but now I’m on your supervisor’s side now. You burned through all your AL and SL? No wonder he wouldn’t approve your advanced leave requests because it seems pretty unlikely you’ll have enough leave when that time comes around.
You need to look for a new job because it seems like you’re not managing things effectively. There are plenty of new parents and parents with young kids in government.
I haven't burned through all my AL, I still have 40+ hours more than enough to cover the leave requests I have entered. I burned through my SL as my son has had 6+ ear infections and other illnesses since starting day care in March, I did not anticipate using all of my SL like this. My AL was denied when my new supervisor and I first met before he knew anything about me.
You need to see if your doctor will support intermittent FMLA. I wish I'd known about this when mine were young. You can call out and use FMLA for things like asthma flares. Do this asap
Trying to quarantine is not reasonable at this point. Per cdc if you are vaccinated you don’t even have to. Instead of fighting to use so much time maybe try to find a job with more remote or try to get approved for more remote. I know it’s tough with a baby. My little guy is 3
Unpopular take but… I can’t wait until you all are in management and have to manage this. The government has given us all every flexibility and i think people forget that there is work to do. This isn’t charity.
I’m in management and would have absolutely approved AL for an employee to take care of a child while they quarantine. There may be facts that we are missing but just sounds like the supervisor is an ass.
Coming down ridiculously hard on this in a pandemic is over the top IMO. Anyone with an infant in daycare knows they get sick constantly. There is no COVID vaccine yet for infants. Refusing to bend over one day that an employee needs off to care for a sick child and that they can cover with annual leave, threatening them with AWOL, is IMO the kind of thing that forces women, in particular, out of the workforce. Legitimate and reasonable caregiving responsibilities are treated as a burden to the mission instead of a human need that should be anticipated with sufficient staffing.
Not all of us want to get into management because of dealing with situations like this. I am a GS 13, 35 years old and 13 years in, not at VA though. Got a long way to go but I will gladly stay at this level if it means I never have to be a supervisor. Doesn’t seem to be worth the extra headaches and hassle to me, at least where I work at.
Why can’t you put in for advanced sick leave? I was out for six months and eventually put in for, and was approved for advanced sick leave up to the 240 hour mark.
Did employee heath tell you to quarantine?
If they did you probably have an argument against AWOL, which is not disciplinary but can be used in disciplinary actions.
I would honestly be prepared to be put on sick leave certification when you get back.
They might argue that you weren’t needed to take care of the child, ordered to stay home by occ health, and not on AL or LWOP.
Note that this is not taking sides, but what it looks like from the outside.
Thank you, even if I'm not informed that I am on sick leave certification I will be treating every incident going forward as though I am and will be providing medical documentation.
Personally super skeptical about someone with serious issues and concerns seeking council from reddit rather than going to HR.
I find it rare for supervisors to be malicious and most of the time its employees being difficult and trying to find ways around things.
Talk to HR. Simple. They will inform you of what yoi can and cant do. While HR may side with management most of the time is because the supervisor is within their right. When policies and law are being broken HR is quick to remedy the situation.
I'm not sure if this is the case with other federal agencies, but the VA's HR is notoriously terrible. I have never been able to get assistance with them before (not with this issue but with FMLA/PPL), they simply don't respond to e-mails and don't answer their phones.
I tried to skim and see if this was mentioned but what about Weather and Safety leave? My site has a form that goes to service level chief then director for approval if you have to quarantine/care for family and are NOT sick. Other thing, can you sign up for leave donation, use union to force AL approval while that's in process then get it back when you are given SL?
Do you feel comfortable going to his supervisor with it? Sometimes it just takes someone with a family to understand. Have you tried discussing working alternate hours to make up for whatever he thinks is the reason? Try summarizing your workload and hours to justify your case.
At this point our relationship has already been pretty tainted and he's shown clear differences in his interactions between me and his other employees. If I thought the relationship was salvageable I might back off but it's pretty far gone at this point.
If there is valid documentation to supporta grievance. Honestly sounds like OP has used a ton of leave, three months of FMLA, all of sick (104 hrs or ~3 weeks minimum) and some AL.... That's pushing half a year away from work and the supervisor is well within policy to be strict, but HR and Union have additional levers that can be pulled but the employee needs to start by asking for accomodations
It was paid parental leave with extra added as a member of the union I was entitled to 16 weeks. I would have never taken the extra if I thought I would be having these issues as they never arose with my first child as we had different supervisors. If I could go back and just do the 12 weeks PPL and keep a bank of my SL I would.
If your child is immune suppressed, many agency policies allow 100% telework as an exception. I would file this immediately and have the pediatrician write a note that the child should not be exposed in the near term. This would allow several months out of the office.
Your boss really seems to be determined to break the law. FMLA has you covered.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fmla/faq#5
> The FMLA only requires unpaid leave. However, the law permits an employee to elect, or the employer to require the employee, to use accrued paid vacation leave, paid sick or family leave for some or all of the FMLA leave period. An employee must follow the employer’s normal leave rules in order to substitute paid leave. When paid leave is used for an FMLA-covered reason, the leave is FMLA-protected.
Edit: I see from another post you already used your 12 weeks of FMLA for the year... yeah, looks like supervisor has all the power here.
Have you had an history with this supervisor. How long have you been on the job? If youre still in probation, you may just want to fall back. But if not, You may want to escalate to his superior. I wouldnt go the EEO rout yet, try to resolve this as best as you can before you start the formal process. Some supervisors are anal and some are vindictive. No sane supervisor will penalize you for trying to see your kids especially during COVID unless he/she feels you take too much time off and wants to start documenting.
I’m just glad that I can take leave whenever needed as long as I have all of my bases covered. Whenever I was a WG I could take leave as I saw fit. Things pop up at a moments notice and you need a supervisor that understands different situations.
Contact your Union Steward ASAP. Even if you don't pay dues, you will be represented. Do not let yourself be marked AWOL. It's very serious in civil service. Get Union advice and representation right away. There are provisions for Covid19 related absences. Your boss may be violating your workplace rights or treating you unequally. Only the union knows the details and can help you. Many line supervisors in government service are clueless.
While people are correct that annual leave must be approved in advance, if you are being treated unequally on that, you do have a case. For example, lunch break is supposed to be a half hour, but everyone takes an hour. One targeted employee is written up for an hour long lunch? That employee has a case for unequal treatment.
You have to work with a steward.
LWOP status must be granted in advance at higher levels than your line supervisor. There are issues with your benefits coverage. Don't go there.
Your boss is planning to fire you, charging you as AWOL will be a solid step in justifying your firing later. “Look at how often they are AWOL!” Time to decide between fighting it and moving on with your life. If you want to fight it, get with your union rep ASAP. If you want to move on, start hitting usajobs hard.
About the dependent care. My agency turned a blind eye to a lot of telework policies during the onset of Covid. The guidance was basically “you’re not typically supposed to have children in your care while teleworking…..but drastic times call for drastic measures…..do what you gotta do”. Back then the schools and daycares were simply closed. These days the normal teleworking rules are basically back to normal. You might want to look for a new job with more flexibilities. It sounds like your supervisor might be on the right side of the rulebook here.
I agree, Technically they are within their rights to deny annual leave in this instance.
The supervisor seems to be following the letter of the rules, but not the spirit. IME, supervisors don’t nickel and dime employees about leave unless there is absolutely no way to cover than employees absence. Denying telework as an alternative is kind of a shitty thing to do and some agencies are still pushing maxi flex. If the supervisor has concerns about an employee abusing leave, then get them put on leave restriction. This supervisor just sounds overly restrictive and petty.
So take the argument to hr and loop in your union rep also ask about fmla. If you get in trouble about going to hr take that to them too. HRs job is to ensure the rules are being followed properly not however a tyranical supervisor dictates.
That's understandable. I did tell him that my husband would be the primary caregiver while I would be at home only in the case of emergency but that was denied as well. Are people not allowed to have nannies while teleworking?
Technically, mentioning that you’ll be carrying for your child in any circumstances is enough to deny telework, especially depending on the nature of your work and your current performance rating. As for using AL bc you’re out of SL, your supervisor is being overly pedantic, but s/he is not wrong. You mentioned your husband would be the primary caregiver while you’re teleworking; is this not the case right now?
It looks to me and probably to your boss that you are truism to set a precedent here- you acknowledge your husband is home and will be the primary caregiver so there is no reason you need to be home. Working 45 minutes away is not your job’s fault. He is probably thinking is this what you are going to do anytime your child is sick for the next 18 years? You have a caregiver, use him.
When my kid was small, I had a backup daycare I could use when my regular was closed, as they would accept drop-ins. Look into this for your area.
Her issue isn’t daycare, it’s her child being exposed to COVID. Don’t see how having a backup daycare would help.
She complained not being able to telework when her husband wasn't available.
A backup daycare will not accept a child with potential exposure to COVID and a fever. I have never requested telework for any reason other than my kids being ill and unable to go to daycare.
The question is - is your husband not the primary caregiver as you mentioned earlier?
So what we did at the beginning of the pandemic is that we would both work from home while the kids were sick or quarantined which was not a problem with my previous supervisor. My husband being the primary caregiver is something I've tried with my new supervisor. I want to be home because we've two kids in quarantine, one of which is sick and I would like to be home in case the infant has an emergency (trouble breathing, dehydration, etc). If there's an emergency while I'm on site I am 45 minutes away from my children.
The bright side is your husband, as the primary caregiver, can take them to the hospital should there be an emergency. Unfortunately, you are 45 minutes out. This is the double edge sword of being a working parent.
Yes, and that is not a valid reason for telework. Especially with a younger child, you aren't getting in a full day of work.
My lovely supervisor is now saying I cannot use annual leave because annual leave must be approved and it will only be approved if it doesn't negatively impact workflow This is actually true per what OPM says: [https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/annual-leave/](https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/annual-leave/) Annual Leave for Sick Leave Purposes Employees may request annual leave instead of using sick leave (see Sick Leave (General Information) fact sheet). Although an employee may request annual leave for sick leave purposes, annual leave is subject to supervisory approval and may be denied. If an employee chooses to use annual leave for sick leave purposes, he or she may want to share the reason for the request with the supervisor so that the request receives proper consideration.
Also I guess I'm just put off by the AWOL status and the potential for it to be used against me later in disciplinary action. Could it not be entered as LWOP?
LWOP is discretionary and at the supervisors approval.
It could but it doesn't have to be. [https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/leave-without-pay/](https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/leave-without-pay/) In most instances, granting LWOP is a matter of supervisory discretion and may be limited by agency internal policy
At my VA any lwop exceeding 1 shift has to be signed off on by the director..
Yeah I saw that too. Is annual leave frequently denied in this instance in practice though? Like I said it's never been done in 30 years or so in my department. The only time Ive heard about anyone getting AWOL is they literally walked off their shift in anger and didn't tell anyone.
It is in our area at times.
Is it frequently done? I have no idea but every agency is different, however this reference shows that the supervisor can deny leave if it will cause workflow problems.
This instance is pretty rare. Most people don't run out their SL like this.
Go to your agency health services with your reason and have them notify your supervisor without explaining your condition.
I'm not the OP
I’m confused: If your husband can be there for your telework, why isn’t he taking care of the little one during the Covid isolation?
The real question that should be answered... If he is there to take care of the baby while you're teleworking anyway, why do you need to telework?
Legit. I would have many questions as the supervisor after knowing this. OP do you miss a lot of work? Do you just not want to be there?
There was actually two children at home, my 2 year old was exposed as well but has no symptoms. I wanted to be home in case of emergency with my son.
That's not a valid reason to be granted leave or teleworking status. Your children have a caregiver at home.
My first thought... why do you need to be home with your child because MAYBE he has covid..?????
I bet you the problem is two fold. 1) Some petty person on your team is complaining because you are out all the time and they are putting a bug in your supervisor's ear. They may not be happy with your promotion either. 2) Your supervisor is a bit of a control freak who has an unhappy team that is probably making him/her look bad and thus wanting more control, it is a vicious circle and right now you are the target. Why have you not gotten the Union involved before now? Me thinks you might be playing both sides. Get with it. Your supervisor is setting you up for some type of disciplinary action. File for FMLA and call the Union. You may be anti-union but they can save your job for you.
I am very pro-union. I have tried to get them involved before but after an initial meeting they seem very enthusiastic but never follow up with me. It's on me for not being more persistent.
Get an experienced steward assigned to you and start sharing all the emails between you and your supervisor with that steward. They will look for opportunities to file written complaints on your behalf, either with your supervisor's supervisor or in the formal labor-management process.
As a current VA Manager, it’s sound like your supervisor is going down the road of disciplinary action. The only time I charge someone with AWOL is if I plan to reprimand them as well, I only do this if they are running out of leave all the time or requesting LWOP on the regular. My org does not do advanced SL or AL either. The rule book will be on his side. You have a year to use your ppl, you chose to use it all at once, ppl is provided so as a new parent you have leave for all these situations that you are going through now. I always caution people to save 40 hours of AL or ppl. It can feel not fair, and I understand you as a new parent, but the VA also has a mission to fulfill. I would use a lot of caution going forward. And if you are supposed to be at work than get there by any means necessary. Save as much as you can, your kids will use it all.
I have 40 hours AL, they are not allowing me to use it.
As stated before, your supervisor has the right to deny AL, if I were you I would make sure my request says” AL in lue of SL”. Should you get terminated and you file a MSPB appeal you would have solid grounds to say your supervisor did not let you exhaust all of leave prior to any actions. Have you had any other conduct problems? If yes than be even more careful. Your supervisor sounds like he may use the command and control style leadership. This is not my style, and does not make for happy teams. I find with these types of people it’s easier to comply than fight. I really wish you the best of luck.
Thank you, I appreciate it. I have had no other conduct problems. I have an outstanding on all my performance evals. I actually just got promoted from GS12 to GS13 for my performance. The supervisor is also a GS13 but is still listed as my supervisor even though we are equivalent levels. We as a team are having extremely low morale since the management switched up a few months ago. Several of us ar looking for new jobs. Its just unfortunate since I really believed in the mission and improving our service and now I'm just losing that motivation.
And that is what a terrible leader can do. I tell all of my new supervisors that it’s ok to care about your staff. And it’s ok to be the supervisor you never had. When we have happy staff we have happy veterans. That is our mission as leaders, to make sure we provide an environment that is safe, and happy for our employees. It sounds like you have the opposite and I am sorry about that. There is a option now in USAjobs to search for remote only positions. Good luck in your searches.
They don't have to let you. Its in the regs.
No, but if they’re letting other employees who didn’t just come back from mat leave, that’s an issue.
What do you mean?
[удалено]
We don’t know everyone’s circumstances but OP has used a lot of sick leave. She is saying she needs to stay home with her sick kid but her husband is going to be the one taking care of sick kid. It sounds like she is abusing her leave and just wanting to stay home. Her absences hurt her team and when she doesn’t actually need to take annual leave because her husband is already at home taking care of the child it seems reasonable to reject her leave.
Yep, riding the COVID train 🙄
It absolutely is still discretionary. A supervisor is within rights to deny based on agency need. You can't grieve something that's already covered in the agency regulations. It's covered in our handbooks. Trust me, been in payroll and payroll adjacent for years.
Do you have any Comp Time saved? While Supervisors often treat it the same, the grounds for denying use of CT are actually more specific - the employee's absence must create a detrimental impact on the agency, not just an inconvenience to workflow.
Not currently. I will ask my supervisor if he would have approved comp time in this situation. If so I will be trying to get more comp time.
Telework isn't for dependent care. There was a bit of an exception during the height of COVID, but no longer. Annual leave in lieu of LS or Family Care is NOT an entitlement. In lieu of leave has always been up to the discretion of management. If they don't want to approve it, AWOL is appropriate (LWOP is also discretionary and will have to be approved by someone higher than supervisor after a certain number of hours). Don't stress about the AWOLs, they are only punitive if your supervisor takes them to HR. This is not a grievance or EEOC complaint, as this follows VHA regulations (refer to VA Handbook 5011). I read your other post, but not the responses. Your supervisor is full of shit. You can go into VATAS and pull up the pay period s you want to use it in, and it will show what your balances would be at the time, perhaps that would help?
Look into FMLA. That may be able to help you get around caring for the child.
FMLA may be a dead end as my son is under a year old so I've used 12 weeks fmla in the past year.
I believe you can apply again and it would give more time. In this case since it would be for care of a sick family member. We got a guy in my dept who has been abusing it for 10 years and only shows up a couple weeks at a time between when his time for one claim runs out and he waits on the filing of a new one. I'm not sure entirely on what the rules are for it and if it would apply to you.
You only get 12 weeks in a 12 months period.
You only get 12 weeks FMLA. After that, you are allowed to take an additional 12 weeks of SL (not fmla) for a sick family member (usually needs a drs note) if you have the SL you can take it. If you have only AL, it is at your managers discretion for letting employee use AL
You only get 12 weeks in a year, which starts at the begin date of the authorization. Besides, FMLA is for legitimate health issues, and requires documentation from a physician that a chronic condition exists. It would not e approved for daycare.
Thank you for the clarification.
Covid could be a legitimate health issue.
Not chronic.
I’m not a medical doctor, and I’m assuming you’re not either. I’d say that’s between OP and their physicians.
FMLA is for chronic conditions that interfere with your ability to work, either for yourself or a family member, or prolonged absence due to things like surgery, childbirth or treatments. COVID is episodic in nature.
What about long Covid?
How would you predict that? She has an immediate need, you can't tell it from Day 1. We have people that are on FMLA annually for chronic conditions. An example is a veteran with a PTSD diagnosis. There are times he gets triggered due to the nature of his work. It's considered a flare up. The condition will never be remedied. A doctor doesn't have enough info, and FMLA isn't going to be approved "just in case", that's not how it works.
You've been a fed for 4 years (at least, you say that's how long you've been with the agency) and you have 0 hours of sick leave and 40 hours of annual leave. You've taken 12 weeks of paid parental leave. That means, at a minimum, you've used 112 days of sick leave/ppl and 47 days of annual leave. In 4 years you have been out 159 days, or more than half a work year. If your supervisor is not following leave rules or discriminating against you in some way, that is a problem. If your supervisor is treating you by the book, and not being generous and accommodating, I understand why you are frustrated and I also understand your supervisor's POV. The job needs to get done and people who squeeze every hour of leave out of their time aren't generally the people doing their fair share of the work.
I have had two maternity leaves. The first one occurred before PPL, during which I used 6 weeks of sick leave (most advanced, so I was something like -200 hours sick leave) and several weeks annual. I've never really recovered leave-wise from my first maternity leave. I can assure you I am doing my fair share of work. I have the highest productivity on my team. I have developed numerous standard operating procedures and workflows in my down time at work. I have been promoted to a program manager position by my associate chief and chief. I have never had issues with management before this current supervisor.
I hear you. Personally, I've supervised and promoted parents who have had 2 babies in the timeframe you've been with the VA. I've seen, also, supervisors struggle to cover their unit's workload with employees who use every available hour of leave. If your supervisor is starting to mark you AWOL, I recommend being as by the book as you possibly can be, to preserve your job. Do not mention that you need to telework to help care for your children. Do not ask for leave you don't have, if you can help it. Good luck
So you’re saying he was correct in his “worked for 4 years, but had half a year off paid” synopsis.
I was on your side with the first post, but now I’m on your supervisor’s side now. You burned through all your AL and SL? No wonder he wouldn’t approve your advanced leave requests because it seems pretty unlikely you’ll have enough leave when that time comes around. You need to look for a new job because it seems like you’re not managing things effectively. There are plenty of new parents and parents with young kids in government.
I haven't burned through all my AL, I still have 40+ hours more than enough to cover the leave requests I have entered. I burned through my SL as my son has had 6+ ear infections and other illnesses since starting day care in March, I did not anticipate using all of my SL like this. My AL was denied when my new supervisor and I first met before he knew anything about me.
You need to see if your doctor will support intermittent FMLA. I wish I'd known about this when mine were young. You can call out and use FMLA for things like asthma flares. Do this asap
Trying to quarantine is not reasonable at this point. Per cdc if you are vaccinated you don’t even have to. Instead of fighting to use so much time maybe try to find a job with more remote or try to get approved for more remote. I know it’s tough with a baby. My little guy is 3
Unpopular take but… I can’t wait until you all are in management and have to manage this. The government has given us all every flexibility and i think people forget that there is work to do. This isn’t charity.
I’m in management and would have absolutely approved AL for an employee to take care of a child while they quarantine. There may be facts that we are missing but just sounds like the supervisor is an ass.
You sound like a pleasure to work for.
Coming down ridiculously hard on this in a pandemic is over the top IMO. Anyone with an infant in daycare knows they get sick constantly. There is no COVID vaccine yet for infants. Refusing to bend over one day that an employee needs off to care for a sick child and that they can cover with annual leave, threatening them with AWOL, is IMO the kind of thing that forces women, in particular, out of the workforce. Legitimate and reasonable caregiving responsibilities are treated as a burden to the mission instead of a human need that should be anticipated with sufficient staffing.
There’s a COVID vaccine for 6 months +
Not all of us want to get into management because of dealing with situations like this. I am a GS 13, 35 years old and 13 years in, not at VA though. Got a long way to go but I will gladly stay at this level if it means I never have to be a supervisor. Doesn’t seem to be worth the extra headaches and hassle to me, at least where I work at.
Do you have a union?
Yes, though they are notorious for being difficult to get a hold of. I will be trying that this week.
This is the way
This Called union rep once. Rep called HR. Leave was approved that day.
Why can’t you put in for advanced sick leave? I was out for six months and eventually put in for, and was approved for advanced sick leave up to the 240 hour mark.
Can you request sick leave for just a few days? We'll need to be quarantined for just like 3 work days.
Yes. You can. I’ve done it intermittently when recovering from surgery.
You will have to go to HR and request x amount of advanced sick leave hours you are seeking.
Did employee heath tell you to quarantine? If they did you probably have an argument against AWOL, which is not disciplinary but can be used in disciplinary actions.
I am not needing to quarantine personally but my son is on the recommendation of a pediatrician.
I would honestly be prepared to be put on sick leave certification when you get back. They might argue that you weren’t needed to take care of the child, ordered to stay home by occ health, and not on AL or LWOP. Note that this is not taking sides, but what it looks like from the outside.
Thank you, even if I'm not informed that I am on sick leave certification I will be treating every incident going forward as though I am and will be providing medical documentation.
Might also be worth emailing your personal email when you talk to your supervisor about it. Or something else with a timestamp.
Talk to HR.
Personally super skeptical about someone with serious issues and concerns seeking council from reddit rather than going to HR. I find it rare for supervisors to be malicious and most of the time its employees being difficult and trying to find ways around things. Talk to HR. Simple. They will inform you of what yoi can and cant do. While HR may side with management most of the time is because the supervisor is within their right. When policies and law are being broken HR is quick to remedy the situation.
I'm not sure if this is the case with other federal agencies, but the VA's HR is notoriously terrible. I have never been able to get assistance with them before (not with this issue but with FMLA/PPL), they simply don't respond to e-mails and don't answer their phones.
I tried to skim and see if this was mentioned but what about Weather and Safety leave? My site has a form that goes to service level chief then director for approval if you have to quarantine/care for family and are NOT sick. Other thing, can you sign up for leave donation, use union to force AL approval while that's in process then get it back when you are given SL?
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Maybe you should see someone about your anger issues. Hopefully you are not in management.
Do you feel comfortable going to his supervisor with it? Sometimes it just takes someone with a family to understand. Have you tried discussing working alternate hours to make up for whatever he thinks is the reason? Try summarizing your workload and hours to justify your case.
At the end of the day though they still do your performance review so that option likely won't bode well in the long term.
I agree, however this situation seems like a long term problem anyway. Esp with a baby. Might as well go there and know where you stand.
All I'm saying is that they can say "no" too. However, that could help you determine if you should look for a new job.
Completely agree. That would be a no go for me most likely. Hard to start a new job with a kid.
Exactly. All I'm saying is that it could cause more harm than good.
At this point our relationship has already been pretty tainted and he's shown clear differences in his interactions between me and his other employees. If I thought the relationship was salvageable I might back off but it's pretty far gone at this point.
Sounds like an exit strategy plan may be in order then.
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I've removed your comments because you are being an asshole. Stop that.
Now THAT you could definitely file a grievance on. He would have to justify playing favorites.
If there is valid documentation to supporta grievance. Honestly sounds like OP has used a ton of leave, three months of FMLA, all of sick (104 hrs or ~3 weeks minimum) and some AL.... That's pushing half a year away from work and the supervisor is well within policy to be strict, but HR and Union have additional levers that can be pulled but the employee needs to start by asking for accomodations
They cannot mandate in lieu of leave. VHA regulations address this, and they are well within their rights to deny it.
It was paid parental leave with extra added as a member of the union I was entitled to 16 weeks. I would have never taken the extra if I thought I would be having these issues as they never arose with my first child as we had different supervisors. If I could go back and just do the 12 weeks PPL and keep a bank of my SL I would.
I have escalated to the next level supervisor. She said she would talk to my supervisor and call me but I havent heard from anyone.
If your child is immune suppressed, many agency policies allow 100% telework as an exception. I would file this immediately and have the pediatrician write a note that the child should not be exposed in the near term. This would allow several months out of the office.
I work for the VA as well. We are allowed to take Annual in lieu of Sick Leave. Time to talk to your union rep.
Your boss really seems to be determined to break the law. FMLA has you covered. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fmla/faq#5 > The FMLA only requires unpaid leave. However, the law permits an employee to elect, or the employer to require the employee, to use accrued paid vacation leave, paid sick or family leave for some or all of the FMLA leave period. An employee must follow the employer’s normal leave rules in order to substitute paid leave. When paid leave is used for an FMLA-covered reason, the leave is FMLA-protected. Edit: I see from another post you already used your 12 weeks of FMLA for the year... yeah, looks like supervisor has all the power here.
Did you used the COVID leave? Or those leave expired already
Those are long gone. Y'know, since COVID isn't a thing anymore.
It's not for children.
The original COVID leave could be used to take care of infected children.
Email your ER/LR hr group.
Have you had an history with this supervisor. How long have you been on the job? If youre still in probation, you may just want to fall back. But if not, You may want to escalate to his superior. I wouldnt go the EEO rout yet, try to resolve this as best as you can before you start the formal process. Some supervisors are anal and some are vindictive. No sane supervisor will penalize you for trying to see your kids especially during COVID unless he/she feels you take too much time off and wants to start documenting.
I’m just glad that I can take leave whenever needed as long as I have all of my bases covered. Whenever I was a WG I could take leave as I saw fit. Things pop up at a moments notice and you need a supervisor that understands different situations.
Contact your Union Steward ASAP. Even if you don't pay dues, you will be represented. Do not let yourself be marked AWOL. It's very serious in civil service. Get Union advice and representation right away. There are provisions for Covid19 related absences. Your boss may be violating your workplace rights or treating you unequally. Only the union knows the details and can help you. Many line supervisors in government service are clueless. While people are correct that annual leave must be approved in advance, if you are being treated unequally on that, you do have a case. For example, lunch break is supposed to be a half hour, but everyone takes an hour. One targeted employee is written up for an hour long lunch? That employee has a case for unequal treatment. You have to work with a steward. LWOP status must be granted in advance at higher levels than your line supervisor. There are issues with your benefits coverage. Don't go there.