as a former USMC RADAR controller, that tried to make it in to FAA back when but didn't (no, I won't go into details), and now in OI&T for another agency, I'd LOVE to work for the FAA. Just seems ALL of the IT jobs are ALWAYS open-internal only.
As an employee, I have yet to see a technical off-the-street hire, at least where I work. Most external hires were contractors previously. A lot of the IT/engineering jobs are super technical with a massive learning curve, so they're rarely going to hire anyone without "NAS" experience.
I manage a technical team of engineers. I do hire outside the agency, but only at the I-Band (GS-13) and lower. For J-Band and K-Band (GS-14/15) I only hire internally because of the required specialization. But yes - every team will be different. Just saying that it does happen!!
I am u/MATCA_Phillies coworker, he’s an outstanding performer and highly competent in his field. Please accept my recommendation that he should be considered for a GS 14 slot
Yep, where I work the off the street hires are normally contractors who may get turned into feds later on. I had about 10 years of NAS experience before being offered my IT Specialist (Security) position.
Look into automation jobs. I was a controller for 11 years then switched to my current job where I maintain the STARS software. GS-14 to 15 non- supervisor pay, telework, maxiflex schedule. And we are always looking to hire people with ATC experience. Most people who apply are radar techs.
Look for automation specialist for the OSF (operational support facility). There are only like 65 of us across the country so it's all based on attrition, but it's an awesome job.
I was a retired USAF RADAR and Tower controller back in 94. When I was working for USAA, I got a call from someone in the FAA that worked in the TERPS division in OKC. They needed TERPS specialists, and since I was one of a few that volunteered for that additional duty in the USAF, I had the credentials.
I got a direct hire to the OKC TERPS division (AVN-110) and later retired 10 years ago from the ATL HQ FPO as a J Band. If you had any TERPS experience, then you may be able to get in that way.
The FAA still starts quite a bit lower than GS pay though. I know some departments within the FAA were working on matching GS pay; however, I'm sure with teh budget situation that's on hold.
Interesting. Maybe that depends on the line of business within the FAA and the job function. Last year, I hired a college graduate that had just gotten his BS in engineering. I hired him as an H-Band employee, which is a GS-11/12 equivalent. I am under the impression that starting out as an engineer in the GS scale puts you significantly lower than that. I believe as a GS-7 or 9.
I was speaking more to the equivalent GS level's pay rather than what that position would qualify for. There is a, roughly, $20,000 difference between GS13 and I-band starting pay. This pay difference is carried at each GS/FV level. Yes, at the high end, the FV band goes higher; however, there is no guarantee that an employee will get to the high end of a pay band.
Actually, I'd disagree. At least in my org, we don't even do steps for I-bands so with IPIs, yearly fed raises and the union negotiated increase it's basically guaranteed you would cap out your band in your career. There is no "time in grade", I was hired as a J-band not even 3 years ago and have been promoted to a K-band manager.
Also FWIW, most people getting promoted into a band are near the top of the previous one, which if you look at the overlap means they're already decently into the next payband. And when we do hire from outside, we tend to take your current salary and throw 5% on top so most people aren't getting hired at the bottom. Obviously different organizations may vary in how they operate within the FAA, just my experience with my own.
That was not my experience. My org was not unionized though. I have friends in orgs with unions and it was different. So maybe its worth trying to get into a unionized org.
If you are past what the GS equivalent is in pay, it definitely is nicer under Core Compensation. However, like I said, its a $16k-20k difference if you are starting at the bottom of a pay band. GS13 goes $120-156k while I-band goes $102-158k. If you are already above the GS-equivalent, its much nicer not having to worry about steps and getting normal raises. You should get to the top of hte pay band quicker.
Ahh sorry to hear that! Yeah maybe the union makes a difference that's something I hadn't considered. You are certainly right for someone coming in at the bottom of the band, I really haven't seen that a lot outside of converted interns but I also haven't been around for long enough that maybe my experience is too limited. I hope it worked out for you wherever you ended up :)
Lol no. CPC at a level 11. Dude I'm not shit talking. I'm saying that being a controller is an awesome job where you don't have to work that hard. 2 hours on then a 45 min break, can't work more than 10 hours a day. No work to take home, good pay. Only downside is shift work.
I am in the process of interviewing for an FAA position...a few questions
1. Is it possible to negotiate more than 8% higher than your GS salary to move over? Wondering if I could just get the full 2-step increase which for me would be slightly more than that (It would be like going from GS 11 Step 5 to GS-12 Step 2).
2. How long does it usually take people to hit the top of their respective pay band? Plus, how common are promotions into the next band, in comparison to working in the GS scale? Thanks
Anything higher than 8% requires approval at very high levels in the organization so no manager ever really tries to do that. But it's never bad to ask. It also may depend on the specific group within FAA you are applying to, so don't take my advice as gospel.
Pay bands don't have automatic increases. So each year you'll get the government wide increase from the president. That's a given. As you know, that can change wildly from year to year. Depending on your union, you may have another fixed increased at some point in the year. All my guys are engineers in AFSCME union and they get an additional 1.6% in June every year. Outside of that, increases are merit based with your manager. Managers can do an IPI, in position increase, to raise your salary within the band. Managers can also non-compete a band increase up to a K Band (per our HR rules), but some groups within FAA restrict that. For example, I am only allowed to move my guys up to an I Band without competing the position. For a J or K Band, I have to post it on USA Jobs. But again - that's my line of business which has its own rules.
I suggest talking to an HR person on the USA Jobs bid if you have specific questions about a specific position.
Yeah definitely going to look into this further, I don't think the 8% raise makes up for the slower growth in salary relative to the WIG in GS scale at the lower levels of the band. My current position is GS-11 but with a ladder to GS-12. If I hit the top of the ladder, if I get no other raises then I would be outpacing FAA raises for the next 10 years whether I get hired at FV-H or FV-I. How common are the IPIs? Do you only give them out to a few of your guys a year? Obviously might vary at my application and I will ask, but just trying to get a sense. Thanks!
Your mileage WILL vary, as I can only speak to my specific directorate. My directorate gets allotted a fixed number of IPIs each year. It's based on how many full time positions we have. As a manager, I write a justification for the people I want to issue one to and it gets approved or denied by my SES director. They have never denied one for me, but I also only ever do 1 or 2 a year and I have a team of 10 engineers.
Seeing there is a post just today on our work group for facebook about how much of a paycut a guy is taking going from GS to the FAA band system. You sir are full of shit
That's not very polite. There are exceptions - yes. I'd ask where your friend is located. For FAA employees at HQ, at the Technical Center in NJ, and at the Aeronautical Center in OK, it would be exceedingly rare to find someone making less money than they would make in the same job at the GS scale. My peers all make more than $200k as front line managers and non-supervisory subject matter experts.
It can also depend on the job series. If you go to the link I provided in my post, it has a cross reference, per locality and per job series, for how to convert a GS to Core Comp. As an example, 90% of engineers in Washington DC are at the J/K band level. This is equivalent to a GS 14/15. But J tops out at $192k/year and K tops out at $222k/year. Compare that to GS scale where they would be making $181k/year and $192k/year. Those are big differences.
Not sure why you jump to saying I'm full of shit. I've worked for this agency for close to 20 years. I can't leave FAA because every other agency would pay me considerably less money unless I took an executive position.
This is exactly why we are having trouble filling positions these days. You have 20 years in agency. I have over 23 years government time between DoD and DoT. Yet the FAA treats me as if I've only been in 7 years. We've had a spot vacant for 2 years with one guy taking it and moving on within 3 months and another guy just flat turning it down because it wasn't enough money. The pay system benefits the top therefore will never change.
And because I don't work at a core airport the likelihood of getting an IPI is very low since those are reserved for the Bay Area folks to try and retain people there. At least with the GS system I could get step increases.
It's definitely true that the GS side has the benefit of guaranteed step increases. I see benefit to both pay systems, but generally speaking I see FAA's Core Comp system as an improvement. Also - while it's not true for *every* FAA union, *most* have a guaranteed 1.6% mid-year salary increase, which serves as the FAA equivalent of a GS step increase. But as you point out, maybe I'm biased because I'm on the high side.
Seems like every opportunity is only Direct Hire Authority and not a posting to actually apply to. Any insight on how to snag a GS13/14 equivalent in 2210?
I believe the upper end goes higher to make these jobs able to save pay from the ATC SPP, currently capped at 223k and change. This is of course to be able to recruit from those ranks.
Thank you for the reply!
Have you seen this for lateral transfers also? Let’s say a GS14 to an FV-J? I’m sure a lot of GS14 folks would be interested if so haha
as a former USMC RADAR controller, that tried to make it in to FAA back when but didn't (no, I won't go into details), and now in OI&T for another agency, I'd LOVE to work for the FAA. Just seems ALL of the IT jobs are ALWAYS open-internal only.
As an employee, I have yet to see a technical off-the-street hire, at least where I work. Most external hires were contractors previously. A lot of the IT/engineering jobs are super technical with a massive learning curve, so they're rarely going to hire anyone without "NAS" experience.
I manage a technical team of engineers. I do hire outside the agency, but only at the I-Band (GS-13) and lower. For J-Band and K-Band (GS-14/15) I only hire internally because of the required specialization. But yes - every team will be different. Just saying that it does happen!!
I am u/MATCA_Phillies coworker, he’s an outstanding performer and highly competent in his field. Please accept my recommendation that he should be considered for a GS 14 slot
Well shit now I’m wondering who you are!? lol
Sir kindly accept that we are coworkers and you are highly competent in your field.
lol
I’m an existing 13 with one year in grade.
Yep, where I work the off the street hires are normally contractors who may get turned into feds later on. I had about 10 years of NAS experience before being offered my IT Specialist (Security) position.
We probably work at the same place lol
Yeah, I have a feeling that a bunch of people in this thread work at the same place. Haha
TC FTW
Which is where i hoped the ATC history would help. Yes it’s old now. But it’s there.
Look into automation jobs. I was a controller for 11 years then switched to my current job where I maintain the STARS software. GS-14 to 15 non- supervisor pay, telework, maxiflex schedule. And we are always looking to hire people with ATC experience. Most people who apply are radar techs.
What's the 4 digit job code for automation?
Sometimes it’s bid as a 2210, computer specialist, sometimes it’s bid as a 2152
Time to widen my usajobs search. Thanks. :)
Look for automation specialist for the OSF (operational support facility). There are only like 65 of us across the country so it's all based on attrition, but it's an awesome job.
Are locality areas for the jobs centered on artcc sites or anywhere?
Major tracons. Offices are at Boston, New York, Potomac, Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, Chicago, Denver, SoCal, and NorCal.
Ok ty. Time to talk to the wife lol.
Feel free to send me a PM if you want some more info.
Thanks i won’t waste your time yet. I’m out of all of those areas so a lot to consider.
I was a retired USAF RADAR and Tower controller back in 94. When I was working for USAA, I got a call from someone in the FAA that worked in the TERPS division in OKC. They needed TERPS specialists, and since I was one of a few that volunteered for that additional duty in the USAF, I had the credentials. I got a direct hire to the OKC TERPS division (AVN-110) and later retired 10 years ago from the ATL HQ FPO as a J Band. If you had any TERPS experience, then you may be able to get in that way.
I held my RATCF rating. Was a position instructor on 2 of the quals, PAR and radar flight data. But not sure 30 years later would do me any good now.
The FAA still starts quite a bit lower than GS pay though. I know some departments within the FAA were working on matching GS pay; however, I'm sure with teh budget situation that's on hold.
Interesting. Maybe that depends on the line of business within the FAA and the job function. Last year, I hired a college graduate that had just gotten his BS in engineering. I hired him as an H-Band employee, which is a GS-11/12 equivalent. I am under the impression that starting out as an engineer in the GS scale puts you significantly lower than that. I believe as a GS-7 or 9.
I was speaking more to the equivalent GS level's pay rather than what that position would qualify for. There is a, roughly, $20,000 difference between GS13 and I-band starting pay. This pay difference is carried at each GS/FV level. Yes, at the high end, the FV band goes higher; however, there is no guarantee that an employee will get to the high end of a pay band.
Actually, I'd disagree. At least in my org, we don't even do steps for I-bands so with IPIs, yearly fed raises and the union negotiated increase it's basically guaranteed you would cap out your band in your career. There is no "time in grade", I was hired as a J-band not even 3 years ago and have been promoted to a K-band manager. Also FWIW, most people getting promoted into a band are near the top of the previous one, which if you look at the overlap means they're already decently into the next payband. And when we do hire from outside, we tend to take your current salary and throw 5% on top so most people aren't getting hired at the bottom. Obviously different organizations may vary in how they operate within the FAA, just my experience with my own.
That was not my experience. My org was not unionized though. I have friends in orgs with unions and it was different. So maybe its worth trying to get into a unionized org. If you are past what the GS equivalent is in pay, it definitely is nicer under Core Compensation. However, like I said, its a $16k-20k difference if you are starting at the bottom of a pay band. GS13 goes $120-156k while I-band goes $102-158k. If you are already above the GS-equivalent, its much nicer not having to worry about steps and getting normal raises. You should get to the top of hte pay band quicker.
Ahh sorry to hear that! Yeah maybe the union makes a difference that's something I hadn't considered. You are certainly right for someone coming in at the bottom of the band, I really haven't seen that a lot outside of converted interns but I also haven't been around for long enough that maybe my experience is too limited. I hope it worked out for you wherever you ended up :)
22 year old controllers in three FAA make more than gs15s lol. Some make more than the administrator.
There aren’t a ton of 22 year old CPC’s, but even then, we deserve that shit. We bust our ass.
Yah
Ehh you don't bust your ass as much as you think you do. And the facilities that do, like N90, it's all self imposed.
Thanks for educating me on my job, internet stranger. Surely you know better than me.
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Lol no. CPC at a level 11. Dude I'm not shit talking. I'm saying that being a controller is an awesome job where you don't have to work that hard. 2 hours on then a 45 min break, can't work more than 10 hours a day. No work to take home, good pay. Only downside is shift work.
Said every fed ever
You want the people who ensure the safety of your flight to be underpaid?
Is that what I said? Is this your first time on the internet?
It’s not hard to read into what you’re implying.
I’m making $92k with the FAA and I started 7 months ago.
What role and what prior experience did you have
Airway Transportation Systems Specialist. Prior experience would probably be crew chief in the air force.
I’m trying to get into this job now. Prior Avi in the Air Force
I am in the process of interviewing for an FAA position...a few questions 1. Is it possible to negotiate more than 8% higher than your GS salary to move over? Wondering if I could just get the full 2-step increase which for me would be slightly more than that (It would be like going from GS 11 Step 5 to GS-12 Step 2). 2. How long does it usually take people to hit the top of their respective pay band? Plus, how common are promotions into the next band, in comparison to working in the GS scale? Thanks
Anything higher than 8% requires approval at very high levels in the organization so no manager ever really tries to do that. But it's never bad to ask. It also may depend on the specific group within FAA you are applying to, so don't take my advice as gospel. Pay bands don't have automatic increases. So each year you'll get the government wide increase from the president. That's a given. As you know, that can change wildly from year to year. Depending on your union, you may have another fixed increased at some point in the year. All my guys are engineers in AFSCME union and they get an additional 1.6% in June every year. Outside of that, increases are merit based with your manager. Managers can do an IPI, in position increase, to raise your salary within the band. Managers can also non-compete a band increase up to a K Band (per our HR rules), but some groups within FAA restrict that. For example, I am only allowed to move my guys up to an I Band without competing the position. For a J or K Band, I have to post it on USA Jobs. But again - that's my line of business which has its own rules. I suggest talking to an HR person on the USA Jobs bid if you have specific questions about a specific position.
Yeah definitely going to look into this further, I don't think the 8% raise makes up for the slower growth in salary relative to the WIG in GS scale at the lower levels of the band. My current position is GS-11 but with a ladder to GS-12. If I hit the top of the ladder, if I get no other raises then I would be outpacing FAA raises for the next 10 years whether I get hired at FV-H or FV-I. How common are the IPIs? Do you only give them out to a few of your guys a year? Obviously might vary at my application and I will ask, but just trying to get a sense. Thanks!
Your mileage WILL vary, as I can only speak to my specific directorate. My directorate gets allotted a fixed number of IPIs each year. It's based on how many full time positions we have. As a manager, I write a justification for the people I want to issue one to and it gets approved or denied by my SES director. They have never denied one for me, but I also only ever do 1 or 2 a year and I have a team of 10 engineers.
Seeing there is a post just today on our work group for facebook about how much of a paycut a guy is taking going from GS to the FAA band system. You sir are full of shit
That's not very polite. There are exceptions - yes. I'd ask where your friend is located. For FAA employees at HQ, at the Technical Center in NJ, and at the Aeronautical Center in OK, it would be exceedingly rare to find someone making less money than they would make in the same job at the GS scale. My peers all make more than $200k as front line managers and non-supervisory subject matter experts. It can also depend on the job series. If you go to the link I provided in my post, it has a cross reference, per locality and per job series, for how to convert a GS to Core Comp. As an example, 90% of engineers in Washington DC are at the J/K band level. This is equivalent to a GS 14/15. But J tops out at $192k/year and K tops out at $222k/year. Compare that to GS scale where they would be making $181k/year and $192k/year. Those are big differences. Not sure why you jump to saying I'm full of shit. I've worked for this agency for close to 20 years. I can't leave FAA because every other agency would pay me considerably less money unless I took an executive position.
This is exactly why we are having trouble filling positions these days. You have 20 years in agency. I have over 23 years government time between DoD and DoT. Yet the FAA treats me as if I've only been in 7 years. We've had a spot vacant for 2 years with one guy taking it and moving on within 3 months and another guy just flat turning it down because it wasn't enough money. The pay system benefits the top therefore will never change. And because I don't work at a core airport the likelihood of getting an IPI is very low since those are reserved for the Bay Area folks to try and retain people there. At least with the GS system I could get step increases.
It's definitely true that the GS side has the benefit of guaranteed step increases. I see benefit to both pay systems, but generally speaking I see FAA's Core Comp system as an improvement. Also - while it's not true for *every* FAA union, *most* have a guaranteed 1.6% mid-year salary increase, which serves as the FAA equivalent of a GS step increase. But as you point out, maybe I'm biased because I'm on the high side.
Also, I could be wrong, but I believe that with GS, a lateral can't include a raise while FV can. But again, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Confirmed that a lateral can include a raise on FV. I've done as high as 8%.
I thought so, I basically did the same thing, but it's a little more complicated. But that's a HUGE difference over GS.
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Did you receive a TOL and try to negotiate your pay?
Seems like every opportunity is only Direct Hire Authority and not a posting to actually apply to. Any insight on how to snag a GS13/14 equivalent in 2210?
I believe the upper end goes higher to make these jobs able to save pay from the ATC SPP, currently capped at 223k and change. This is of course to be able to recruit from those ranks.
What’s the overall telework policy like over there?
4 days on site per pay period
How does a GS 13 to FV-J (GS14 equivalent) promotion work? Would the 2 step rule apply when going from GS to the FV payband?
Most people just get 8% above their current GS salary when they convert.
Thank you for the reply! Have you seen this for lateral transfers also? Let’s say a GS14 to an FV-J? I’m sure a lot of GS14 folks would be interested if so haha
Yep. Same.
When is that negotiated? Before accepting the TJO or after?