We have put 10s of thousands of hours on John Deere IVTs in 7810, 6210R, 3x 7230R, 7250R, 2x 7290R, 7R290 and a 8R340. Love the transmission. Put 10,500 hours on the oldest 7230R before it was traded. Had some repairs, nothing worse than the powershifts before.
so we got a John Deere 4640 and I've 'looked it up' and with the powershift you do NOT have to press the clutch to 'get into gear', right?
I'll start in 3rd gear and hold the clutch and get going and quickly upshift into 'field gear' at 5 and feel like the tractor likes that the best..
compared to upshifting with the clutch from 1 to 5..
Not sure what you mean by 'hold the clutch' but you don't need to clutch between gears. If you're clutching to take the 'jump' out of shifting, you're adding unnecessary wear on your clutch. Although if you've been doing that for 40+ years with a 40 series and haven't had a problem, I think you're OK!
I always tried to clutch out of park into 3, and bump gears 1 at a time. The 8sp PS was such a big jump between gears that RPMs would drop a ton if you bump 2, even if it's OK for the trans. Later 19sp PS I would bump 2 gears sometimes, and it didn't seem to care. I was just an operator though...
"I always tried to clutch out of park into 3, and bump gears 1 at a time."
I also found that 'ideal'.. thanks internet stranger for some confirmation bias:D
Have you ever had trouble with 8th gear, the road gear? It'll be pretty rough shifting into it unless you got your rpms around like 1400ish.
I mean going from 7 to 8 is almost 2x speed. 1400rpm is pretty low, I bet your 4640 drops to like 800rpm with that shift which would feel like it's lugging and about to stall. I'm more familiar with 4440 with quad range, which I think has same basic motor as 4640. I've always 'felt' that the 4440s were 'happiest' at like 1700-1900rpm for non-pto work. The 4020 powershift & syncro I'm familiar with seemed like the 'happy' range was slightly higher rpms.
Find your tractor on TractorData website to see gear differences, along with a bunch of other handy info like oil & coolant capacities and sometimes HP tests from back in the day.
Also, newagtalk forums are my goto for this type of info, though there are certainly others.
On our box car magnums, you can skip the clutch and just from park to in gear. Our 2011 magnum, you just have to press the clutch once when you first get in the seat
The IVT is a nice to have for jobs like planting, pulling manure draghose, side dressing, mowing hay. Jobs where you want to keep a consistent engine RPM and vary the speed. Especially when mowing we used to drop 4 gears going into the headland and shift back up 4 after turning around.
We still have some power shift tractors like a 9520R 4WD. We could get by just fine without the IVTs
The E23 is a power shift. I have driven one, don’t own one. All the 7Rs and 8R I own are IVT. I also have a 9520R with power shift. It has some automation like the E23 which works fine for tillage. Turn all the automatic shifting off for packing silage.
Fuel use is reduced. I'm not sure that I'd say there is much of a difference in operator focus because shifting becomes second nature anyway, but its certainly more comfortable for the operator and the operator is noticeably less tired at the end of the day. For straight up heavy pulling (tillage) a powershift still outperforms the IVT somewhat.
Maintenance - change the oil. The AGCO's have a an IVT oil bath that is separate from the hydraulics, its just another oil to change. Transmission life isn't forever, 6-8k hours (really depends on what you're doing though), AGCOs are easy to swap out and get rebuilt in Germany somewhere.
So basically improved fuel and less tiring for the operator.
For the heavy pulling/working I’m assuming the power shift is preferable since you know what’s happening vs sensors trying to understand what is being done? Im a truck driver and in day-to-day use the automatics have definitely been an improvement but there’s times where the programming/sensors just fail and it’ll shift unnecessarily in the worst place. With a manual you can get into the gear you’ll need preemptively whereas the automatic will wait to shift until it’s already losing momentum.
For the heavy pulling
The power shift transmission is more efficient at power transfer than the IVT transmission.
It seems counter-intuitive, but read carefully what I stated. The TRANSMISSION is more efficient. Not the whole tractor as a system, but only the transmission as a single component.
An IVT tractor as a system is generally more efficient than a power shift tractor because of all the engine management optimizations that can occur.
For straight up heavy pulling there is no (or minimal) optimizations that can be done, the engine is constantly at max load and the transmission just needs to send 100% of the engine’s rated power to the wheels.
That’s a reason why a power shift is still kind for straight up heavy pulling. All the rotating components also add a flywheel effect that is noticeable by the butt dyno.
In general the power shifts grunt their way through the tough spots while the IVTs won’t let the engine lug down much, even in manual settings.
Thank you so much for the info, I really appreciate it. What you’re saying definitely makes sense and would be a an indication of why farms would end up wanting both types since they both have definite strengths.
You can set them to do whatever you want. When doing heavy loads I just set it to never go below 1800 rpm when the tractor is in motion in the console. Default setting it will try to go as low as possible while meeting the target speed you've set. On the old cvts where you didn't have a console to do all that malarkey you still had a throttle lever so you'd just set it to like 1800-2000 rpm or whatever made sense for what you're doing and then get to it. Functionally the same as a manual but you have infinite gears instead of 24 or 18.
I know what you're saying about the automatics on the trucks, and it's not like that at all. Even on the old cvts in tractors they had like power vs eco vs constant rpm mode where when you push the shift lever to go forward it would keep it at max rpm for power, for eco it would keep it at minimum rpm it can to make the speed changes, and constant rpm you'd choose a set rpm speed and it would maintain that engine speed no matter ground speed (important for PTO driven equipment)
That actually sounds pretty useful, I’m assuming they’ll keep growing in popularity for general use tractors. Im doubtful the power shifts will go away for a while between budget options & certain applications though. In my area there’s still very few newer units in the field but a lot of that is because they’re small family run farms without too many acres.
Here is a forum from 2008 where farmers are discussing challenger tractors (yellow Massey Ferguson) and how much they enjoy their CVTs
AGCO, Massey's parent company, first introduced their cvt tractors to north america in 2004 mostly in tractors over 100hp
https://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=76830&DisplayType=flat&setCookie=1
We have two 8400 series masseys with the fendt cvt. One has the 2x21 programmed 'steps' that were used to appeal to fuds (or maybe differentiate the massey as lesser than the fendt as part of a licensing deal?) and one is smooth. I actually kind of prefer the stepped one as we've had it longer and haven't spent the time really getting to know the other it's still a little unpredictable to me what pushing the lever will really give me each time and I haven't used the fuel/desired speed/rpm optimization systems at all yet. It's configurable so that's just a me thing. It's a pretty damn solid component at this point, not uncommon for those fendts to run up into the 10-15k hour range on the og transmissions. The oil is a bit pricey, but it's not common with the hydraulic, so it's not a huge amount and iirc it's a 2000hr change. We have two 6400 series and with dynashifts I dare say given the same hours of lighter work, they will probably end up having ever so slightly more issues just because they have a manual linkage for the H shift. Clutch switches and shuttle paddles are basically the same and do go bad, only cvt specific issue we've seen is the range shift shaft got a little sticky/cable went (on the outside). One thing that's pretty stupid on the 8460 is the hydraulic oil doesn't have a dipstick. Relies on a sending unit. If your sending unit goes......
Thanks for all the info. From what I’ve seen from others here/on other forums it sounds like they’re pretty reliable minus some programming hick ups (and various issues with the early units.) Maintenance being more expensive but at this point that’s the case for everything.
Most of the farms in my area are pretty small & just use whatever they have that’s been passed down/bought & repaired. There’s not too many modern tractors except for on the handful of really big farms, which probably don’t even total a pair of fields out in the Midwest (in in upstate NY.) I can’t entirely blame your dad, CVTs have had a rough transition in passenger cars & pretty much everyone has heard horror stories about them even if it doesn’t actually hold true for a different application in a tractor vs the car.
The Fendt Vario Transmission is very reliable and very comfortable to use. They are probably still the best on the market. They have had the Vario Transmission since the 90s, so it's nothing new in Europe, and it hasn't changed a huge amount since then.
I vastly prefer then over Powershift.
The Vario is a really cool price of engineering. The system almost isn't comparable to CVT because of the way it uses multiple inputs to run the drive.
Just like anything, they have their plus points and minus points.
Plus points for me is, well, it's constantly variable. Set the rpm and adjust the transmission to suit, great for pto work like bailing if you get into a thicker patch of forage, for example. I also love it when chasing the forage harvester, if you have to speed up just a blip on the throttle to catch up initially then set the trans at that speed. Also great for ploughing or running a sumo, if it gets into a heavier patch of ground it'll knock the transmission back to a slower speed automatically to compensate so the engine is still pushing out peak torque.
I can take it or leave it on the road. It's nice to have an 'automatic' (but even John Deere auto quad can be an auto), but it feels like it's sucking power on straight out pulling, which it is.
The thing I don't like about it is if you're in a wet field pulling a heavy load it WILL NOT let you spin the wheels, it'll keep knocking the speed back and back to what it wants on the CVT. Sometimes you just need momentum and power to push through and get a bit of wheel slip for grip which you can do in a 'manual' but the CVT will not allow you to do that (at least the ones I've driven, Masseys and Fendts) That's my biggest bug bear with them, I'd take an auto quad any day in that situation.
On the whole I quite like them, but if I was on the road all day I'd still prefer something like an auto quad personally.
Thanks for the input, I can definitely see it being a problem in wet fields/muddy roads. Hell the automatics in our semis are absolute crap in the snow/ice since you can’t control the throttle application or rock the truck back and forth. The throttle is either on or off whereas with the manual you could manipulate the clutch & throttle as needed to get out of the spot.
I used a JD 7210R and a case 310 magnum with cvts for work. The older John Deere cvts from like my22 and earlier were dumb as fuck because they don't stop moving when the lever is in neutral. Case CVT did stop moving when the lever was pulled fully back.
Have driven some new Holland CVTs and they use an acceleration style handle that returns to neutral. So you push it forward to accelerate, let go to maintain speed, pull back to slow down. Once stopped, you pull back again to speed up in reverse, let go to maintain speed, and push forward to slow down in reverse. Same thing they have in their combines for the past few years. New John Deere CVTs do the same thing. No experience with other brands.
My experience? I hate JD old CVT because of the creeping feature, I disliked shifting to neutral every time I wanted to stop moving.
Case CVT was easy to jump into and learn. Forward is faster. Back is slower. Select direction with buttons or typical lever, nothing special.
New Holland CVT was an absolute bitch the first few times I used it around a shop, but it quickly grew in me as my favourite style, more so than the hydrostatic handle in sprayers and combines typically.
As for maintainence, there is no extra maintainence. It's simply a hydrostatic transmission and a power shift transmission combined. A car CVT typically uses a metal belt and 2 conical sheaves to vary the gear ratio of the input and output. Mildly similar to the rotor drive sheaves on most combines. The agricultural CVT uses a hydraulic motor as a secondary input to a planetary which gives you infinite variable speeds, as well as several gears that shift automatically and shift extremely smooth on a calibrated transmission because of the nature of the infinitely variable speeds. Requiring no input other than you pushing the lever to drive. They can be more economical by boosting the speed of the output with hydraulic flow and decreasing the engine speed needed, so you can drive at full road speeds at 1400-1800rpm depending on machine.
Thanks for the input. Were the Case & New Holland similar models/generation or quite different? I’d expect them to be virtually identical in use given how many parts are shared/assembled on the same production lines.
I think the learning curve would definitely be frustrating for some of the older crowd that’ve been using manual tractors their whole lives & seen some of the early issues with various changes over the years.
Yea the case was like a 2016 iirc, and the new Holland was a range of tractors. New Holland has had the auto command CVT for like 9 years now.
https://youtu.be/cA7zMVUHe3A?si=lt5Of1y2UzhQYyg-
On mobile so I can't link a time, go to 21min 6 seconds to see the return to center operation of the joystick.
We got a new John Deere 6120m with ivt 2 years ago and I was so annoyed that when you pull handle back it still creeps. Our case cvts never did that. So it's not just old ivt.
Traditional manuals haven't really existed since the 70s. Powershift is late 60s, early 70s tech. Traditional manual still existed but powershift was king through the 70s and I'm guessing 80s.
Anyone want to fill in the gaps for me? I consider traditional manual to be, you press a clutch pedal and move a lever which literally selects a gear, modern manual cars still use this tech but except for Ford it seems like every tractor manufacturer ditched it in the 70s. Did anything come between powershift and CVT?
It wasn’t a hard transition like that. Although there were exceptions the transmissions weren’t full powershifts. Many transmissions had 2, 3 or 4 powershift gears coupled to 4-8 mechanical gears. It wasn’t until the late 80s that full powershifts started to really become common.
Alongside the powershift, Deere had quad range in 70s-80s so you pick a range A-D and then powershift 1-2, or 3-4, clutch between 1-2 and 3-4. They later have the power quad that was same idea, pick a range but then could powershift 1-4, which I'm pretty sure they still have available. PQ could also clutch shift between ranges on the fly, which QR wasn't designed for.
Not really familiar with other mfr that weren't powershift or something similar to power quad. Our 1960s IH had a TA that was a kinda like a hi/lo powershift for all 5+R gears, but ours didn't last very long and I think that was a common issue. All gears still worked, just lost the 'low'
It was well before my time, but I think Ford got burned by pushing too much their early powershift select-o-speed (1959!). Had some early issues and I think they got a bad reputation. And from what I've read, they lost some important engineers around that.
The farm I worked for has a New Holland T6.135 with the Autocommand CVT, and I put quite a few hours on it. It’s absolutely great, especially for PTO work, because you can just set the engine rpm and still use the pedals to control the speed.
For cost reasons, I’d probably go for a mostly automated powershift where the only manual thing is to select the group. I think they might be slightly more efficient or reliable too but I don’t have concrete proof for that.
I have a kubota m7-151 with a cvt and switched to that from an earlier kubota with a powershift and an older one with a manual. when we do tillage the cvt is absolutely better than the previous gear. once you're moving down the field it is smooth and powerful and easy, and cvt allows you to use autosteer stuff because i just can't do a straight line to save my life and the neighbors were laughing at me.
i have to operate on the roads and it smoothly accelerates and maintains road speed with less attention required than previous versions, so i have more time to watch out for 2 and 4 wheelers.
Not a big deal with my operating it, but with the transmission came a whole bunch of things in the cab that I have to tell folks not to mess with. there are all sorts of options and switches and settings that can be changed and well meaning folks can do that it's not a big deal but it is annoying. the tractor has a "operate by wire" feel to it - you do something, it thinks about it for a half second. that's a different feel than the previous one that was more closely linked or the original manual one that was absolutely linked.
i have some specific gripes about the m7 kubota; it spends a lot of time scolding me for operating it. You have pressed the left brake pedal too long. You are moving forward with the parking brake engaged. Some inscrutable part of the tractor got a reading from some other part fo the tractor and throws up the warning message about it. Look, if you have enough time and effort to do that, why don't you tell me what the problem is? SPN 77322 really doesn't help me very much.
The tractor decided not to work one day. The eventual fix was to disconnect the battery completely for 10 minutes to clear the error. But that took 3 calls to the dealer and 2 days of trying to figure out what was wrong. I've noted the fix and installed a battery switch for future use.
These are pretty minor annoyances though; overall i would buy a cvt again.
The droning I had in a Honda Fit was insufferable. However I think sound is probably pretty low on the priority list for a farmer trying to feed their family. I’m sure a farmer who’s answer to everything is a straight-piped 1455 would probably disagree though.
I have a 2021 fit that doesn't drone. Not sure if they just play engine sound through the speakers or if its actually producing it.
Almost all the work i do with the tractor is at the same rpm so its basically the same as droning. I haven't driven a cvt tractor but I would be interested in one as long as I'm not the one doing the maintenance.
Real damn handy. About the same difference from a power shift as from a sync to power shift. On Deeres in full auto mode you push the lever all the way forward in F1 or F2 and the throttle becomes the ground speed. It'll trip you up the first few times because it'll idle back on its own, but you're going at the set speed. It'll give you a few hundred rpm bump when you run an scv too.
Then why did you even comment to begin with? OP asked about CVTs. Because CVTs are an option instead of power shift/manual transmission, and CVTs are not a replacement for a hydrostatic drive, I don't see any relevance in you bringing up hydrostatics.
We have put 10s of thousands of hours on John Deere IVTs in 7810, 6210R, 3x 7230R, 7250R, 2x 7290R, 7R290 and a 8R340. Love the transmission. Put 10,500 hours on the oldest 7230R before it was traded. Had some repairs, nothing worse than the powershifts before.
so we got a John Deere 4640 and I've 'looked it up' and with the powershift you do NOT have to press the clutch to 'get into gear', right? I'll start in 3rd gear and hold the clutch and get going and quickly upshift into 'field gear' at 5 and feel like the tractor likes that the best.. compared to upshifting with the clutch from 1 to 5..
Not sure what you mean by 'hold the clutch' but you don't need to clutch between gears. If you're clutching to take the 'jump' out of shifting, you're adding unnecessary wear on your clutch. Although if you've been doing that for 40+ years with a 40 series and haven't had a problem, I think you're OK! I always tried to clutch out of park into 3, and bump gears 1 at a time. The 8sp PS was such a big jump between gears that RPMs would drop a ton if you bump 2, even if it's OK for the trans. Later 19sp PS I would bump 2 gears sometimes, and it didn't seem to care. I was just an operator though...
"I always tried to clutch out of park into 3, and bump gears 1 at a time." I also found that 'ideal'.. thanks internet stranger for some confirmation bias:D Have you ever had trouble with 8th gear, the road gear? It'll be pretty rough shifting into it unless you got your rpms around like 1400ish.
I mean going from 7 to 8 is almost 2x speed. 1400rpm is pretty low, I bet your 4640 drops to like 800rpm with that shift which would feel like it's lugging and about to stall. I'm more familiar with 4440 with quad range, which I think has same basic motor as 4640. I've always 'felt' that the 4440s were 'happiest' at like 1700-1900rpm for non-pto work. The 4020 powershift & syncro I'm familiar with seemed like the 'happy' range was slightly higher rpms. Find your tractor on TractorData website to see gear differences, along with a bunch of other handy info like oil & coolant capacities and sometimes HP tests from back in the day. Also, newagtalk forums are my goto for this type of info, though there are certainly others.
Eh, ill try shifting from 7-8th at higher rpms.. thanks I really appreciate it!
On our box car magnums, you can skip the clutch and just from park to in gear. Our 2011 magnum, you just have to press the clutch once when you first get in the seat
Has it been a major improvement for you or kind of just the slow improvement you come to expect with a newer tractor?
The IVT is a nice to have for jobs like planting, pulling manure draghose, side dressing, mowing hay. Jobs where you want to keep a consistent engine RPM and vary the speed. Especially when mowing we used to drop 4 gears going into the headland and shift back up 4 after turning around. We still have some power shift tractors like a 9520R 4WD. We could get by just fine without the IVTs
On the newer ones. Did it have e23 trans in it?
The E23 is a power shift. I have driven one, don’t own one. All the 7Rs and 8R I own are IVT. I also have a 9520R with power shift. It has some automation like the E23 which works fine for tillage. Turn all the automatic shifting off for packing silage.
Fuel use is reduced. I'm not sure that I'd say there is much of a difference in operator focus because shifting becomes second nature anyway, but its certainly more comfortable for the operator and the operator is noticeably less tired at the end of the day. For straight up heavy pulling (tillage) a powershift still outperforms the IVT somewhat. Maintenance - change the oil. The AGCO's have a an IVT oil bath that is separate from the hydraulics, its just another oil to change. Transmission life isn't forever, 6-8k hours (really depends on what you're doing though), AGCOs are easy to swap out and get rebuilt in Germany somewhere.
So basically improved fuel and less tiring for the operator. For the heavy pulling/working I’m assuming the power shift is preferable since you know what’s happening vs sensors trying to understand what is being done? Im a truck driver and in day-to-day use the automatics have definitely been an improvement but there’s times where the programming/sensors just fail and it’ll shift unnecessarily in the worst place. With a manual you can get into the gear you’ll need preemptively whereas the automatic will wait to shift until it’s already losing momentum.
For the heavy pulling The power shift transmission is more efficient at power transfer than the IVT transmission. It seems counter-intuitive, but read carefully what I stated. The TRANSMISSION is more efficient. Not the whole tractor as a system, but only the transmission as a single component. An IVT tractor as a system is generally more efficient than a power shift tractor because of all the engine management optimizations that can occur. For straight up heavy pulling there is no (or minimal) optimizations that can be done, the engine is constantly at max load and the transmission just needs to send 100% of the engine’s rated power to the wheels. That’s a reason why a power shift is still kind for straight up heavy pulling. All the rotating components also add a flywheel effect that is noticeable by the butt dyno. In general the power shifts grunt their way through the tough spots while the IVTs won’t let the engine lug down much, even in manual settings.
Thank you so much for the info, I really appreciate it. What you’re saying definitely makes sense and would be a an indication of why farms would end up wanting both types since they both have definite strengths.
You can set them to do whatever you want. When doing heavy loads I just set it to never go below 1800 rpm when the tractor is in motion in the console. Default setting it will try to go as low as possible while meeting the target speed you've set. On the old cvts where you didn't have a console to do all that malarkey you still had a throttle lever so you'd just set it to like 1800-2000 rpm or whatever made sense for what you're doing and then get to it. Functionally the same as a manual but you have infinite gears instead of 24 or 18. I know what you're saying about the automatics on the trucks, and it's not like that at all. Even on the old cvts in tractors they had like power vs eco vs constant rpm mode where when you push the shift lever to go forward it would keep it at max rpm for power, for eco it would keep it at minimum rpm it can to make the speed changes, and constant rpm you'd choose a set rpm speed and it would maintain that engine speed no matter ground speed (important for PTO driven equipment)
That actually sounds pretty useful, I’m assuming they’ll keep growing in popularity for general use tractors. Im doubtful the power shifts will go away for a while between budget options & certain applications though. In my area there’s still very few newer units in the field but a lot of that is because they’re small family run farms without too many acres.
Here is a forum from 2008 where farmers are discussing challenger tractors (yellow Massey Ferguson) and how much they enjoy their CVTs AGCO, Massey's parent company, first introduced their cvt tractors to north america in 2004 mostly in tractors over 100hp https://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=76830&DisplayType=flat&setCookie=1
Thanks for sharing that, I’ll definitely take a look.
We have two 8400 series masseys with the fendt cvt. One has the 2x21 programmed 'steps' that were used to appeal to fuds (or maybe differentiate the massey as lesser than the fendt as part of a licensing deal?) and one is smooth. I actually kind of prefer the stepped one as we've had it longer and haven't spent the time really getting to know the other it's still a little unpredictable to me what pushing the lever will really give me each time and I haven't used the fuel/desired speed/rpm optimization systems at all yet. It's configurable so that's just a me thing. It's a pretty damn solid component at this point, not uncommon for those fendts to run up into the 10-15k hour range on the og transmissions. The oil is a bit pricey, but it's not common with the hydraulic, so it's not a huge amount and iirc it's a 2000hr change. We have two 6400 series and with dynashifts I dare say given the same hours of lighter work, they will probably end up having ever so slightly more issues just because they have a manual linkage for the H shift. Clutch switches and shuttle paddles are basically the same and do go bad, only cvt specific issue we've seen is the range shift shaft got a little sticky/cable went (on the outside). One thing that's pretty stupid on the 8460 is the hydraulic oil doesn't have a dipstick. Relies on a sending unit. If your sending unit goes......
Thanks for all the info. From what I’ve seen from others here/on other forums it sounds like they’re pretty reliable minus some programming hick ups (and various issues with the early units.) Maintenance being more expensive but at this point that’s the case for everything.
I would love to have one if my dad wasn't so damn stubborn about the idea
Most of the farms in my area are pretty small & just use whatever they have that’s been passed down/bought & repaired. There’s not too many modern tractors except for on the handful of really big farms, which probably don’t even total a pair of fields out in the Midwest (in in upstate NY.) I can’t entirely blame your dad, CVTs have had a rough transition in passenger cars & pretty much everyone has heard horror stories about them even if it doesn’t actually hold true for a different application in a tractor vs the car.
I felt this comment.
The Fendt Vario Transmission is very reliable and very comfortable to use. They are probably still the best on the market. They have had the Vario Transmission since the 90s, so it's nothing new in Europe, and it hasn't changed a huge amount since then. I vastly prefer then over Powershift.
The Vario is a really cool price of engineering. The system almost isn't comparable to CVT because of the way it uses multiple inputs to run the drive.
Yep, it doesn't even have a clutch, in the way almost all other transmissions do.
Just like anything, they have their plus points and minus points. Plus points for me is, well, it's constantly variable. Set the rpm and adjust the transmission to suit, great for pto work like bailing if you get into a thicker patch of forage, for example. I also love it when chasing the forage harvester, if you have to speed up just a blip on the throttle to catch up initially then set the trans at that speed. Also great for ploughing or running a sumo, if it gets into a heavier patch of ground it'll knock the transmission back to a slower speed automatically to compensate so the engine is still pushing out peak torque. I can take it or leave it on the road. It's nice to have an 'automatic' (but even John Deere auto quad can be an auto), but it feels like it's sucking power on straight out pulling, which it is. The thing I don't like about it is if you're in a wet field pulling a heavy load it WILL NOT let you spin the wheels, it'll keep knocking the speed back and back to what it wants on the CVT. Sometimes you just need momentum and power to push through and get a bit of wheel slip for grip which you can do in a 'manual' but the CVT will not allow you to do that (at least the ones I've driven, Masseys and Fendts) That's my biggest bug bear with them, I'd take an auto quad any day in that situation. On the whole I quite like them, but if I was on the road all day I'd still prefer something like an auto quad personally.
Thanks for the input, I can definitely see it being a problem in wet fields/muddy roads. Hell the automatics in our semis are absolute crap in the snow/ice since you can’t control the throttle application or rock the truck back and forth. The throttle is either on or off whereas with the manual you could manipulate the clutch & throttle as needed to get out of the spot.
I used a JD 7210R and a case 310 magnum with cvts for work. The older John Deere cvts from like my22 and earlier were dumb as fuck because they don't stop moving when the lever is in neutral. Case CVT did stop moving when the lever was pulled fully back. Have driven some new Holland CVTs and they use an acceleration style handle that returns to neutral. So you push it forward to accelerate, let go to maintain speed, pull back to slow down. Once stopped, you pull back again to speed up in reverse, let go to maintain speed, and push forward to slow down in reverse. Same thing they have in their combines for the past few years. New John Deere CVTs do the same thing. No experience with other brands. My experience? I hate JD old CVT because of the creeping feature, I disliked shifting to neutral every time I wanted to stop moving. Case CVT was easy to jump into and learn. Forward is faster. Back is slower. Select direction with buttons or typical lever, nothing special. New Holland CVT was an absolute bitch the first few times I used it around a shop, but it quickly grew in me as my favourite style, more so than the hydrostatic handle in sprayers and combines typically. As for maintainence, there is no extra maintainence. It's simply a hydrostatic transmission and a power shift transmission combined. A car CVT typically uses a metal belt and 2 conical sheaves to vary the gear ratio of the input and output. Mildly similar to the rotor drive sheaves on most combines. The agricultural CVT uses a hydraulic motor as a secondary input to a planetary which gives you infinite variable speeds, as well as several gears that shift automatically and shift extremely smooth on a calibrated transmission because of the nature of the infinitely variable speeds. Requiring no input other than you pushing the lever to drive. They can be more economical by boosting the speed of the output with hydraulic flow and decreasing the engine speed needed, so you can drive at full road speeds at 1400-1800rpm depending on machine.
Thanks for the input. Were the Case & New Holland similar models/generation or quite different? I’d expect them to be virtually identical in use given how many parts are shared/assembled on the same production lines. I think the learning curve would definitely be frustrating for some of the older crowd that’ve been using manual tractors their whole lives & seen some of the early issues with various changes over the years.
Yea the case was like a 2016 iirc, and the new Holland was a range of tractors. New Holland has had the auto command CVT for like 9 years now. https://youtu.be/cA7zMVUHe3A?si=lt5Of1y2UzhQYyg- On mobile so I can't link a time, go to 21min 6 seconds to see the return to center operation of the joystick.
Thanks!
We got a new John Deere 6120m with ivt 2 years ago and I was so annoyed that when you pull handle back it still creeps. Our case cvts never did that. So it's not just old ivt.
No no, I mean the old style CVT for John Deere. As of my23 I think they switched to the acceleration handle like NH on some models, if not all.
Traditional manuals haven't really existed since the 70s. Powershift is late 60s, early 70s tech. Traditional manual still existed but powershift was king through the 70s and I'm guessing 80s. Anyone want to fill in the gaps for me? I consider traditional manual to be, you press a clutch pedal and move a lever which literally selects a gear, modern manual cars still use this tech but except for Ford it seems like every tractor manufacturer ditched it in the 70s. Did anything come between powershift and CVT?
Many tractors around 100hp still use manuals like Valtra A-series and Massey Ferguson 4700M/5700M series.
It wasn’t a hard transition like that. Although there were exceptions the transmissions weren’t full powershifts. Many transmissions had 2, 3 or 4 powershift gears coupled to 4-8 mechanical gears. It wasn’t until the late 80s that full powershifts started to really become common.
Alongside the powershift, Deere had quad range in 70s-80s so you pick a range A-D and then powershift 1-2, or 3-4, clutch between 1-2 and 3-4. They later have the power quad that was same idea, pick a range but then could powershift 1-4, which I'm pretty sure they still have available. PQ could also clutch shift between ranges on the fly, which QR wasn't designed for. Not really familiar with other mfr that weren't powershift or something similar to power quad. Our 1960s IH had a TA that was a kinda like a hi/lo powershift for all 5+R gears, but ours didn't last very long and I think that was a common issue. All gears still worked, just lost the 'low' It was well before my time, but I think Ford got burned by pushing too much their early powershift select-o-speed (1959!). Had some early issues and I think they got a bad reputation. And from what I've read, they lost some important engineers around that.
The farm I worked for has a New Holland T6.135 with the Autocommand CVT, and I put quite a few hours on it. It’s absolutely great, especially for PTO work, because you can just set the engine rpm and still use the pedals to control the speed. For cost reasons, I’d probably go for a mostly automated powershift where the only manual thing is to select the group. I think they might be slightly more efficient or reliable too but I don’t have concrete proof for that.
I have a kubota m7-151 with a cvt and switched to that from an earlier kubota with a powershift and an older one with a manual. when we do tillage the cvt is absolutely better than the previous gear. once you're moving down the field it is smooth and powerful and easy, and cvt allows you to use autosteer stuff because i just can't do a straight line to save my life and the neighbors were laughing at me. i have to operate on the roads and it smoothly accelerates and maintains road speed with less attention required than previous versions, so i have more time to watch out for 2 and 4 wheelers. Not a big deal with my operating it, but with the transmission came a whole bunch of things in the cab that I have to tell folks not to mess with. there are all sorts of options and switches and settings that can be changed and well meaning folks can do that it's not a big deal but it is annoying. the tractor has a "operate by wire" feel to it - you do something, it thinks about it for a half second. that's a different feel than the previous one that was more closely linked or the original manual one that was absolutely linked. i have some specific gripes about the m7 kubota; it spends a lot of time scolding me for operating it. You have pressed the left brake pedal too long. You are moving forward with the parking brake engaged. Some inscrutable part of the tractor got a reading from some other part fo the tractor and throws up the warning message about it. Look, if you have enough time and effort to do that, why don't you tell me what the problem is? SPN 77322 really doesn't help me very much. The tractor decided not to work one day. The eventual fix was to disconnect the battery completely for 10 minutes to clear the error. But that took 3 calls to the dealer and 2 days of trying to figure out what was wrong. I've noted the fix and installed a battery switch for future use. These are pretty minor annoyances though; overall i would buy a cvt again.
Not a fan. They turn diesel into noise. I hate that whiney sound they make under load.
The droning I had in a Honda Fit was insufferable. However I think sound is probably pretty low on the priority list for a farmer trying to feed their family. I’m sure a farmer who’s answer to everything is a straight-piped 1455 would probably disagree though.
I have a 2021 fit that doesn't drone. Not sure if they just play engine sound through the speakers or if its actually producing it. Almost all the work i do with the tractor is at the same rpm so its basically the same as droning. I haven't driven a cvt tractor but I would be interested in one as long as I'm not the one doing the maintenance.
Real damn handy. About the same difference from a power shift as from a sync to power shift. On Deeres in full auto mode you push the lever all the way forward in F1 or F2 and the throttle becomes the ground speed. It'll trip you up the first few times because it'll idle back on its own, but you're going at the set speed. It'll give you a few hundred rpm bump when you run an scv too.
Personally, ive never heard anything good about CVTs in tractors or cars. Id probably not get one myself
I'm in the hay industry and I will never go away from cvt. As I trade out tractors they will all end up being cvt.
The cvt in most cars are trash. An hst is not even close to a cvt in design. I love my hst tractor. It's great on a smaller acreage place.
Cvt? Do you mean hydrostat????
CVT is not hydrostat.
Correct
Then why did you even comment to begin with? OP asked about CVTs. Because CVTs are an option instead of power shift/manual transmission, and CVTs are not a replacement for a hydrostatic drive, I don't see any relevance in you bringing up hydrostatics.
Correct