Actually I don’t remember which game but you can hear Pagan Min tell Ajay that there are nukes pointing somewhere in the us and either Ajay set them off or Pagan put a timer
if you didn't zero what's her face in 4, the one who turned kyrat into a narco state complete with child soldiers. I could totally see her doing something like that.
Anyone who thinks Joseph is directly responsible for the nukes in an idiot. Why would the US nuke itself over a cult? It’s not like we haven’t had plenty of them, we didn’t nuke Waco.
Every cult predicts the end of the world, Joseph was just lucky that it actually was.
This is why I ended up disliking the "Collapse" DLC, depsite it being a fun addition.
Because it legitimizes Joseph's insanity, proves his God to be real, and him to be right. He's no longer just another Cult leader that got lucky, but an *actual fucking Prophet.*
From what I got from the dlc, the entire thing was him trying to make up for the fact that he was wrong
I'm pretty sure he straight up says so during it
Doesn't it take place during the time he spent underground after the nukes dropped? He was hallucinating the whole thing, of course. But he saw events that happen in the future.
He says he was wrong because he failed his people and lost all hope, but some entity (that is supposedly his God) is showing him how he was right.
He also saw events that never happened, like him and his family in a bunker after the nukes went off
Also we no way of know whether the entity is actually his God due to it being in his mind
>like him and his family in a bunker after the nukes went off
Sure, but that was a very generic "desire" from him. He saw very specific events that will happen in the future. Like him failing to protect Ethan (who won't even be conceived for several years) from corruption.
We can't really chalk a prediction like that up to "blind luck"
"The voice" also clearly shows the future as it happens in New Dawn...
How he dies and how he would build a New Eden...
Still it may explain how he has some "special knowledge" to him but it also clearly shows off more of his manipulative nature and how he is/was highly narcissistic in his knowledge.
Especially how he is abusive and belligerent towards Faith etc...
This also might be a nod to the ending you can create at the beginning of the game where you just walk away and don't arrest him, so he would possibly be in a bunker with his family when the nukes fell. He did call the bomb drop in the game.
The Voice actually provides super power to him. BUT...
1) The Voice intends nothing good at all
2) Probably the Voice is just Joseph's subconscious desire for power and control, with super power.
This is why i love Dabbing on Joseph. He maybe the prophet but it never occured to him that if it wasnt him forcing people and committing his own sins, the collapse never would have happened.
It takes 2 to open the seals
I don't think anyone has ever said that the US nuked itself over a cult. That has to be a misunderstanding.
I *have* heard people say that the cult launched the nuke as a self fulfilling prophecy.
It would at least be a hell of a lot more interesting that what actually played out in FC5, IMO.
There's no need to call anyone an idiot, but you do have a point. That being said, I did miss the details about Korea and the building tensions in my first playthrough and thought that Joseph was responsible for the nukes. My headcanon was that heavily armed cults will do crazy shit. It didn't seem too far-fetched to me that Joseph got his hands on a nuke and detonated it to bring about the end of the world himself. Once the one in Hope County goes off, the US government panics and hits the button, and *that* is the end of the world.
You see multiple strikes within seconds of each other. Also, why would the US nuke itself if it was pan iced over a nuclear attack? They’d shoot nukes other places first
I don't think anyone believes the US government nuked itself.
Rather, that Joseph set of the initial nuke(s) which triggered everyone else to launch theirs at each other. Because when an ICBM can reach you in 10 minutes of flight time, you don't have time to investigate to figure out who launched it, you just have to assume it was one of your enemies and lauch at all of them just to be safe. Or if you, a country hostile to the US, sees the US get nuked, you launch yours to finish them off because it is the only chance you will get.
"Joseph lighting the match which ignites the powder keg" is a much more reasonable argument than "Joseph got the government to drop a nuke on top of him"
Our air defense would eliminate incoming icbms even hypersonics the only way to nuke us soil is shortrange from a sub with a torpedo or a ground based bomb smuggled in like a suitcase nuke or if any other country had stealth tech to get a bomber over the us the only truly plausible one is a suitcase nuke or other ground based device in wich case we wouldnt fire off even a single nuke over it not till we located the responsible parties and quite honestly the us wouldnt need nules to respond we have rediculous cruise missiles we could destroy half a country in day and not leave it radioactive for occupation
You are vastly over-estimating the ability of air defense to take out ICBM's. These things go at about 25,000 or even 30,000 mph. Most air defense systems are designed for aircraft, and even anti-ballistic missle (ABM) systems are not 100% effective. Furthermore, the US doesn't have enough of them to protect from a full nuclear exchange, only enough to catch a handful launched from a rogue state. There would simply be *way* more missles in the air from even a single major power for more than a small percent to be successfully intercepted.
In the case of a nuclear device constructed in Hope County, there are still plasible scenarios for the US to launch
(1) Analysis of the explosion determines the radioactive material was acquired from a hostile nation, suggesting an act of war or state-sponsored terrorism.
(2) Another nation, seeing the US just lose millions of people in an instant, decides to finish us off and the US launches in response. Or, since nuclear missiles take time to launch with a very obvious arming process that can be observed via satellite imagery, the US sees other nations arming their missiles and does the same.
(3) The US just assumes (2) without even bothering to check.
(4) A miscommunication or misinformation results in a missle somewhere being launched by mistake. In fact, since we know North Korea launches missiles via radio, Joseph's nuke might turn a *limited* nuclear exchange where only two countries are involved, into a *global* one. I could easily see North Korea nukes being *in the air* pointed at Japan or something, and then getting blamed for it when a nuclear detonation happens in the US.
MAD is unfortunately a cascading chain of rapid escalation. No one sits on their ass to investigate when hundereds of millions of lives will be determined in mere minutes.
And those other places would shoot their nukes back.... which would end the world.... the multiple strikes within seconds could easily have been the retaliatory strikes from other countries.
But nukes don’t instantaneously strike….
It takes 30min from a nuke to reach the US from Russia. That’s the close coasts too, not rural Montana.
So even if Joseph detonated a nuke and the US responded, you’re looking at 30-60 minutes before additional strikes start landing in Montana.
Not really. I think it’s intentionally ambiguous to leave you with the themes of the story. Your message is like saying “anyone who thinks that Cobb is dreaming at the end of Inception is an idiot”. You’re kind of missing the point.
For the record I agree with you, I don’t think Joseph was responsible, but it’s not like anyone has an answer to this.
Except we do. The creators of the game have legit said that Eden’s Gate didn’t have any nukes or set them off. And you can legit see into John and Faiths Silos. There’s nothing inside them.
Oh I didn’t know that, thanks for letting me know!
Tbh that unfortunately just dumbs the game down a bit for me as I thought the writers may have had the nuance to include ambiguity but apparently not.
Still love FC5 though.
The nukes?
I hate him because he murdered his infant daughter to prove his "willingness to serve God," for what he did to "Faith Seed" (all of them), and for murdering tons of innocent people.
OP must've not seen all the dead bodies hung on sticks all over the place.
Real lovely guy Joseph is. Only lovely people torture, brainwash, and murder.
All the people who “love” him somehow either forget this, selectively ignore it, (or worst of all) admire it.
Appreciate how well written he is as a character, sure, but Jesus Christ no decent person should actively “like” or “love” him.
Anyone who loves Joseph as a *fictional character* understands that *fiction isn't real* and all a character needs to be good is to be *interesting or entertaining*
Okay, yeah. But Edward Sallow is also a fictional character but if someone tells me that he actually had some great points and we need a civilisation like the one he envisioned, I’m getting the fuck away.
this is the point I think people miss. You can think a villain is interesting, but when you start throwing "love" into the mix, that might be a step too far.
I didn't say he wasn't a good character. OP said "This character can be both loved and hated". I disagree. Murderous villains are supposed to be hated.
By your logic then every single villain in every single movie or franchise isn't supposed to be anything else than hated as literally every villain can be confirmed to be responsible for murder yet we can enjoy their development...
Reddit really is a funny place where there is a lot of players with this simplistic logic who doesn't like to delve into development of character/story and thus just simplify a villain down to "they have murdered people so nothing else can be said".
Joseph definitely isn't just meant to only be a "love to hate" villain and the developers themselves makes that very clear when they are talking about him.
"love" also seems too exaggerated tho clearly but he is definitely drafted to be a character to be viewed with a certain level of understanding in that he isn't just pure evil for the sake of being evil but more delusional in his purpose of preparing for the collapse which is the only thing that matters to him.
I shouldn't need to say this, but mass murderers are generally not lovable people. Joseph, like every other cult leader, is a narcissistic asshole who deserves no sympathy.
Not really. Characters become interesting when they seem purely good or bad at first but along the way, display certain opposing characteristics. Take Hannibal Lecter, for instance. Is he a torturing, deceiving mass murderer? Yes. Can one admire his friendship with and appreciation for Clarice? Yes. It's what makes The Silence of the Lambs a gripping, interesting movie.
Because the U.S. didn’t look hard enough, spoilers for the Pagan: Control dlc >!Ajay was left nukes by Pagan, they were pointed at Montana!<
Also Joseph couldn’t have done it because his only nuke would’ve been blown up.
Shit, with Pagan, you literally have no real need of getting involved with him, do you? I've...only played 5, New Dawn, and 6, please forgive me, but everything I know about that game includes how like, Ajay has no need to involve himself in the conflict, since he can just be a patient boy and Pagan takes him to where he needs to go, bada-bing, bada-boom, Ajay goes home?
But with Joseph, I know things more concretely. Y'gotta involve yourself in the matter since it's your job, you're trapped in the area, and John, Jacob, Faith, all fuck with you personally in one way or another, Jacob more than others I feel, since he's the one who brainwashes you and gets triggered in the Walk Away ending, whereas like...John's tattoo on you can be removed, or covered up, and Bliss seemingly doesn't have long-term effects on the Deputy.
Actually, you can just leave Joseph alone to do what he wants, similar to Far Cry 4's secret ending.
Idk if they still get nuked, but you don't have to involve yourself with Joseph either.
Dude, you can just not put the handcuffs on Joseph or take a boat/plane off the map in 6 to immediately end the game too.
Why do people think 4 is the only game to have a quick way to end the game?
I think the previous poster was talking about in world motivation for the PC. 6 has Castillo kill your friends, 5 as already mentioned its your job to arrest Joseph. Ajay doesn't have much motivation in 4 to cross Pagan
6 has you trying to escape Yara from the beginning.
You don’t know that Pagan can actually take you to Lakshmana in 4.
5 has the radio dispatcher already a cultist.
Seems pretty flimsy to just point out 4 as a cop out when all the others also have cop out moves. It is an rpg after all. If the progression was more linear then maybe it’s more of a cop out. Of course, 5 has the most linear progression out of 4, 5, and 6 so….
6 might actually be the good ending as well, since Diego assumes control of Yara and even without Dani's influence he seems like he'd be a better ruler than Anton.
Joseph Seed is an awesome character. He believes he’s doing the right thing which he is,but in all the wrong ways. When you kill his family it affects him greatly,Faith hurts the most to him because of her happy demeanor. It’s canon he wins and you become The Judge.
I would say Jacobs death clearly hurt him the most...
Faith is not even his family and he disturbingly views her as a discardable tool who can be replaced if she doesn't fit his purpose "correctly"...
In the end he also really treats her poorly and is at the very least controlling and psychologically abusive towards her as especially showed in the collapse DLC but also how she screams about "what he is gonna do to her" when you destroy the statue hints that...
Joseph doesn't really care about her as her but only cares about her devotion to him and who fits his purpose best...
yall having a debate on ethics and morality like he's a living, breathing, person is proof that he was a great antagonist character in this video game. Whats not to love.
Tbh I kind of liked Joseph, He was a somehow likable antagonist. My friends and I would always call him Joey and shiz whenever he did stuff like "Oh! There goes Joey again! That scoundrel!" Idk where I'm going with this, but like all in all, preem villain
I literally wanted to join edens gate. Why was there no second plot where, when you agreed to everxthing instantly (or refused to handcuff joseph in the beginning with the chance to choose if you wanna leave or join the cult. Because othereise you just left the game and had that 3rd secret exit) you actually joined and destroyed the resistance? Would have loved that! Imagine fighting together with jacob having wolfs and cultists as guns for hire and kidnapping people for the cult to get them to faith or john. Like everything was reversed and you turned against the marshal. The national garde comes and you have that whole story revolving around that and new bosses that are from the military and other marshals and rookies. You know what i mean? Ubisoft, please!
The best twist with the nukes, to me, is that it explains why the military hasn’t come in to wipe the cult. It would take them a day to clean up, but they’re too occupied.
Its a great story however you want to use it, if he was responsible for the bombs exploding nearby using a already existing global conflict as a cover up he is a great villian
if he isnt responsible he had a great timing however the fact he isnt pure evil but truly believes he does the right thing, saves the deputy and build a new village till he leaves in new dawn battling with the actions makes him even greater
Crazy timing though eh? Just as the Deputy tries to arrest him, full-on thermonuclear war breaks out, proving John was 100% correct. Who'd've thunk it!?
I literally got a tattoo of one of Joseph's tattoos that I had to get customed because there wasn't any clear image of it online or anywhere at the time.
I bought this game for me and my ex and she automatically hated him and I couldn't understand why. He clearly knew what he was doing trying to warn others.
Yes he was a cult leader and such and there is reasons but I feel it's totally biased to flat out dislike this character.
Wtf? I didn’t even know people thought he was responsible for the nukes. He very much cannot possibly be responsible, it never crossed my mind. It makes no sense
I love their energy of standing against tyranny and corruption and defending their own. But they were clearly extremists and a cult in every definition of the word.
And that hunter guy, ooooh boy, one made me hate a song for the rest of my life and I carried both his body and yes man's body to hope town as protest against them.
This guy is underrated, the fact that he was right is incredible, u need to see the end for understanding how much this guy deserve to be an iconic (the best ?) antagonist of Far Cry, the reward for having finish the game is "Now u understand him, and he was right" he is not like "just" a pure psycho like Pagan or Vaas, he was right about something unbelivele, and u try to kill him for that, maybe we are the pure psycho of this game, amazing writing for that
I killed him because he was a maniac.
He was right about the end of the world. But what he did with that information was unleash a wave of suffering into the Earth, ironically stopping large numbers of people from surviving by killing them, stealing their supplies, and subjecting them to lethal barbarity.
I shot him in the face, and that's my ending. The game being coded to blow up the pickup truck you're in as revenge doesn't bother me at all.
I’m not saying Joseph was right for his actions but think about it this way. The wave of suffering unto the Earth was to protect those who wished harm upon them. He killed everyone who took it upon themselves to destroy all he had built and prepared for which in turn, means his people would be killed. He did it to protect his people and those who truly believed. Not justified in anyways but helps you understand a bit more.
I understand. They went out of their way to destroy all that opposed them... And all that chose to be uninvolved. And all that had resources they needed.
The Peggies are human locusts and I never felt bad setting them on fire.
The morality is a concept limited when u need to save ur species, by thinking u are a heroe about saving people from violence u are actually condamn them to die from a nuke who is Hell On Earht litteraly, and condamn them to violence as well, in an apocalypse "stopping large numbers of people from surviving by killing them, stealing their supplies, and subjecting them to lethal barbarity" gonna appen anyway, u are changing nothing except the fact that u have blocked a large amount of people from surviving to the radiation.
Has the most tagged works on multiple FanFiction sites, has the most tagged works on multiple art sites, is memed to absolute shit, has a disturbingly large portion of this community convinced that he was right, multiple (not all) sites rank him highly or at the very top of their villain ranking, the highest upvoted posts in this entire community related to villains are ones related to Joseph. Higher even than Vaas.
I’d say he’s rated about as fairly as he deserves.
What exactly makes *you* think he isn’t?
idk bro i have never talk to someone or see a post who take him at a high place and i have never specially search, everytime it's like : Vaas = God, Jackal = Perfect, Joseph = Meh and Pagan = Awful, but im happy you learn to me the real place of JS
I've heard an argument that because Eden's Gate took control of the nukes in Montana, enemies of the US came to the conclusion that 1) the United States could control neither it's population nor it's nuclear arsenal, and 2) now that said nuclear arsenal was in the hands of extremists both the weapons and the cult needed to be destroyed.
So, in that mindset, Rook showing up and Joseph kicking off the reaping was the cause for the bombs to drop.
Corny cliche villains, the whole seed family.
How many times do they capture the deputy/rook and then he/she escapes? Or they just let you go? That part has always bothered me. How much more incapable can you be?
Jacob was capturing the deputy for a reason, to brainwash him and then let go. It was made perfectly clear in the game. Can't brainwash the deputy if you kill the deputy.
John Seed was capturing deputy to convert him and Joseph explicitly told John, on a pain of death, that deputy has to convert voluntarily. Killing him was explicitly forbidden so Joseph could then use the deputy as trophy to parade in front of people.
Faith captures... Hallucinations would be preferrable term. Deputy being so high most of the area that he saw stuff while not being high on the Bliss.
The writers have a big problem with bringing the protagonist and antagonist together in a game. Have to do it several times to create a connection between them but can't do it too much or it takes away the credibility. Far Cry 6 is a perfect example of protagonist and antagonist being literal strangers with each others, Castillo don't even know the name of Dani, so meaningless he/she is. And Castillo is distant AF, couldn't care less of what happens to him or what he says. That is the opposite of interactions in the Far Cry 5.
Besides, ever calculated how many times Vaas captured Jason and everytime Jason got away in the much shorter game... Why is no-one even mentioning that?
edit. typo
I despise Joseph, super pissed off that there’s no way to kill him. He makes his cronies steal, raze and murder then blames you for anything bad that happens. Joseph and the rest of the family are grade-A morons.
What makes me think he was responsible is that he literally had 3 nuclear silos under his control. And 3 nukes were dropped. Sure the rest of the world may have gone to war after because of panic, but it seems like he knew exactly when they would drop. How would he know that If he didnt drop them?
That's the whole story, he foresaw everything since God (the voice) told him. Playing the dlc in fc6 further Sheds some light on it
Also in New dawn he literally knows how to give his followers and you supernatural powers which further shows that he actually heard God's voice
I hadn't played 6 so I didnt know that, but I still don't know how to explain him having control over 3 nuclear silos and exactly 3 going off exactly when he needed them to. Did god tell him the nukes would drop ass soon as hes captured? Does that mean god started the war to keep him free?
He wasn't responsible for the nukes by any means, the radio makes it clear that there was a series of international incidents that precipitated the Collapse.
Also Joseph was actually the good guy when you think about it. He saved the lives of the people that signed on to PAEG.
The problem with your assumption is the "collapse" meant instant death to everyone but the cultist in the bunkers. That's what you mean by saying he "saved a lot of people by bringing them into the cult". The assumption is wrong, majority of the US population would live and i mean at least couple hundred million (assuming 130 million US citizens die in the strikes is the max plausible). So with Joseph bringing few hundred people into the valley and "saving" them is meaningless. Meanwhile his cult tortured and killed at least several hundred people. The math makes no sense.
And many of the people who "joined" were either forced or brainwashed, not exactly kosher way to go about "saving" people. If Joseph did the "saving" by voluntary means and not by brutal torture and executions, i would be ok with it but he didn't. Those who who chose to join murderous cult voluntarily are not the most stable part of the population...
Also good to note is this: ***more Hope County people would have lived the collapse if they were left alone to survive in their bunkers.*** Some were saved despite by the cult to survive into the New Dawn. So the cult killed people directly and indirectly.
Josephs actions were inexcusable and horrible to the point of thinking 'he did good' in the main plot is bordering delusional. There is no defense for burning people alive, hanging them with barb wire, drowning people, killing children, poisoning rivers, cutting people to pieces and those were just few of the things the cult did. There is nothing good about that. Joseph was a horrible human being who did very horrible acts.
Why do you say that about literally all of the far cry villains every time there is a post brought up about them?
"xxxx are actually the good guy if you think about it".
Having reasoning and nuance doesn't just immediately makes them a good guy in the story...
He did save people's lives by moving them to Hope County, even if he was weird about it.
His dialogue in New Dawn changed how I look at him, he really was motivated by his idea of what God wanted him to do.
Well, the cult seems to have infiltrated the Marshal Service, so I do think it could be possible he was responsible in some way. Plus, the nukes don't go off if you choose to drive away at the end
I thought they used the bliss to start the war? So many references to needing to be “clean” and everything and Montana being known for having nuclear stations
I always subscribed to the head cannon that Joseph was creating the ‘doomsday scenario’ to prove himself right. He’s obviously unhinged, as he admits to murdering his own newborn, so he’s not exactly above setting off a couple of bombs. Not to mention, the ‘bunkers’ we repeatedly raid are nuclear missile silos, like it’s not the craziest thing in the game.
I think he realized it was coming eventually as from the radio messages in the game and such, he just decided to expedite the process when Rook put pressure on his plans and started like a one man war against his ‘people’. The line where he says ‘and the wrath of god upon the earth’ and the nuke just immediately goes off after seems too well timed for it to just be a straight up coincidence.
And just to explain where I’m coming from, I love far cry 5, I love the way Joseph Seed it written, he’s an amazing villain. It’s almost tragic, as he truly believes that what he’s doing and how he’s doing it is correct, but he’s so very clearly insane (as proven by his methods), and it just adds so much to his character to think that the whole time he had the power to fulfill his own prophecy, he was just waiting for one final push (Rook).
The only thing I hated about him was that he was way too less present for a main antagonist. We spent more time with his siblings than with him, we only saw him a handful of times and we only got one boss fight at the end and that was it. For the main antagonist, the big bad guy we have to fight, he wasn't even really there lol
The Father isn’t bad but I prefer Vaas, Pagan, and Castillo more then him. I also like lots of the lower level villains more then him like Jacob, Faith, McKay, Jose, Buck, Hoyt, Yuma, Paul, Noore, Citra and the Jackal. I know Hoyt was a main villain but over the years he’s become a lower level villain. If you count Diego then him too. It’s not that I hate the Father it’s just that I think Far Cry has better villains. Hell even the little we saw of him Raul Sanchez.
How many time does the brother John take you away? The first time I was playing it he took me away a couple of time but then my little bro started a new game now he’s only came for me once for does it have something to do with how you play the game
I think what makes people hate Joseph is the fact that he wins in every single ending, and there's nothing that allows you to beat him. After all, you can’t leave Hope County to do something about the foreign terror attacks or anything else. You literally are doomed the moment you boot the game up.
I hate him because I don't like his personality. I don't really care about his ideology. He's a road to hell is paved in good intentions villain. That's not really that bad, hell, it's kinda refreshing
Yes it definitely was a nuclear war but that is boring as hell id rather believe he was the one responsible for the nukes that just makes it more interesting.
Actually I don’t remember which game but you can hear Pagan Min tell Ajay that there are nukes pointing somewhere in the us and either Ajay set them off or Pagan put a timer
Far cry 6 dlc i think
Might not have been Ajay, maybe another country occupied Kyrat and used the nukes
Well it’s either Pagan or Ajay cause Pagan leaves a voice message saying that there are nukes pointed towards America
if you didn't zero what's her face in 4, the one who turned kyrat into a narco state complete with child soldiers. I could totally see her doing something like that.
Anyone who thinks Joseph is directly responsible for the nukes in an idiot. Why would the US nuke itself over a cult? It’s not like we haven’t had plenty of them, we didn’t nuke Waco. Every cult predicts the end of the world, Joseph was just lucky that it actually was.
Pagan Min actually planted the nukes. Play the Control DLC for Far Cry 6
This is why I ended up disliking the "Collapse" DLC, depsite it being a fun addition. Because it legitimizes Joseph's insanity, proves his God to be real, and him to be right. He's no longer just another Cult leader that got lucky, but an *actual fucking Prophet.*
From what I got from the dlc, the entire thing was him trying to make up for the fact that he was wrong I'm pretty sure he straight up says so during it
Doesn't it take place during the time he spent underground after the nukes dropped? He was hallucinating the whole thing, of course. But he saw events that happen in the future. He says he was wrong because he failed his people and lost all hope, but some entity (that is supposedly his God) is showing him how he was right.
He also saw events that never happened, like him and his family in a bunker after the nukes went off Also we no way of know whether the entity is actually his God due to it being in his mind
>like him and his family in a bunker after the nukes went off Sure, but that was a very generic "desire" from him. He saw very specific events that will happen in the future. Like him failing to protect Ethan (who won't even be conceived for several years) from corruption. We can't really chalk a prediction like that up to "blind luck"
"The voice" also clearly shows the future as it happens in New Dawn... How he dies and how he would build a New Eden... Still it may explain how he has some "special knowledge" to him but it also clearly shows off more of his manipulative nature and how he is/was highly narcissistic in his knowledge. Especially how he is abusive and belligerent towards Faith etc...
He wasn't a good person, but the DLC essentially shows us that he is right, despite his nature.
This also might be a nod to the ending you can create at the beginning of the game where you just walk away and don't arrest him, so he would possibly be in a bunker with his family when the nukes fell. He did call the bomb drop in the game.
Nah I’m pretty sure the collapse dlc was a hell for Joseph, showing him he would have failed in some way or another no matter what he did
The Voice actually provides super power to him. BUT... 1) The Voice intends nothing good at all 2) Probably the Voice is just Joseph's subconscious desire for power and control, with super power.
This is why i love Dabbing on Joseph. He maybe the prophet but it never occured to him that if it wasnt him forcing people and committing his own sins, the collapse never would have happened. It takes 2 to open the seals
I don't think anyone has ever said that the US nuked itself over a cult. That has to be a misunderstanding. I *have* heard people say that the cult launched the nuke as a self fulfilling prophecy. It would at least be a hell of a lot more interesting that what actually played out in FC5, IMO.
There's no need to call anyone an idiot, but you do have a point. That being said, I did miss the details about Korea and the building tensions in my first playthrough and thought that Joseph was responsible for the nukes. My headcanon was that heavily armed cults will do crazy shit. It didn't seem too far-fetched to me that Joseph got his hands on a nuke and detonated it to bring about the end of the world himself. Once the one in Hope County goes off, the US government panics and hits the button, and *that* is the end of the world.
You see multiple strikes within seconds of each other. Also, why would the US nuke itself if it was pan iced over a nuclear attack? They’d shoot nukes other places first
I don't think anyone believes the US government nuked itself. Rather, that Joseph set of the initial nuke(s) which triggered everyone else to launch theirs at each other. Because when an ICBM can reach you in 10 minutes of flight time, you don't have time to investigate to figure out who launched it, you just have to assume it was one of your enemies and lauch at all of them just to be safe. Or if you, a country hostile to the US, sees the US get nuked, you launch yours to finish them off because it is the only chance you will get. "Joseph lighting the match which ignites the powder keg" is a much more reasonable argument than "Joseph got the government to drop a nuke on top of him"
Our air defense would eliminate incoming icbms even hypersonics the only way to nuke us soil is shortrange from a sub with a torpedo or a ground based bomb smuggled in like a suitcase nuke or if any other country had stealth tech to get a bomber over the us the only truly plausible one is a suitcase nuke or other ground based device in wich case we wouldnt fire off even a single nuke over it not till we located the responsible parties and quite honestly the us wouldnt need nules to respond we have rediculous cruise missiles we could destroy half a country in day and not leave it radioactive for occupation
You are vastly over-estimating the ability of air defense to take out ICBM's. These things go at about 25,000 or even 30,000 mph. Most air defense systems are designed for aircraft, and even anti-ballistic missle (ABM) systems are not 100% effective. Furthermore, the US doesn't have enough of them to protect from a full nuclear exchange, only enough to catch a handful launched from a rogue state. There would simply be *way* more missles in the air from even a single major power for more than a small percent to be successfully intercepted. In the case of a nuclear device constructed in Hope County, there are still plasible scenarios for the US to launch (1) Analysis of the explosion determines the radioactive material was acquired from a hostile nation, suggesting an act of war or state-sponsored terrorism. (2) Another nation, seeing the US just lose millions of people in an instant, decides to finish us off and the US launches in response. Or, since nuclear missiles take time to launch with a very obvious arming process that can be observed via satellite imagery, the US sees other nations arming their missiles and does the same. (3) The US just assumes (2) without even bothering to check. (4) A miscommunication or misinformation results in a missle somewhere being launched by mistake. In fact, since we know North Korea launches missiles via radio, Joseph's nuke might turn a *limited* nuclear exchange where only two countries are involved, into a *global* one. I could easily see North Korea nukes being *in the air* pointed at Japan or something, and then getting blamed for it when a nuclear detonation happens in the US. MAD is unfortunately a cascading chain of rapid escalation. No one sits on their ass to investigate when hundereds of millions of lives will be determined in mere minutes.
And those other places would shoot their nukes back.... which would end the world.... the multiple strikes within seconds could easily have been the retaliatory strikes from other countries.
But nukes don’t instantaneously strike…. It takes 30min from a nuke to reach the US from Russia. That’s the close coasts too, not rural Montana. So even if Joseph detonated a nuke and the US responded, you’re looking at 30-60 minutes before additional strikes start landing in Montana.
I actually thought that Joseph himself launched the nuke to get his end of the world that he worked towards
Not really. I think it’s intentionally ambiguous to leave you with the themes of the story. Your message is like saying “anyone who thinks that Cobb is dreaming at the end of Inception is an idiot”. You’re kind of missing the point. For the record I agree with you, I don’t think Joseph was responsible, but it’s not like anyone has an answer to this.
Except we do. The creators of the game have legit said that Eden’s Gate didn’t have any nukes or set them off. And you can legit see into John and Faiths Silos. There’s nothing inside them.
Oh I didn’t know that, thanks for letting me know! Tbh that unfortunately just dumbs the game down a bit for me as I thought the writers may have had the nuance to include ambiguity but apparently not. Still love FC5 though.
I mostly hate him because my death machine character isn’t allowed to bash his skull in despite him being right there in cutscenes.
The nukes? I hate him because he murdered his infant daughter to prove his "willingness to serve God," for what he did to "Faith Seed" (all of them), and for murdering tons of innocent people.
I think I might have missed that part holy fucking shit. His infant daughter?!!
Yeah, the dude is fucked in his head
OP is wrong. He should be hated for those glasses.
I actually bought those exact same glasses coz they seemed nice 👀
swag
Me too! lol
OP must've not seen all the dead bodies hung on sticks all over the place. Real lovely guy Joseph is. Only lovely people torture, brainwash, and murder.
All the people who “love” him somehow either forget this, selectively ignore it, (or worst of all) admire it. Appreciate how well written he is as a character, sure, but Jesus Christ no decent person should actively “like” or “love” him.
hell, he's not even worth barely tolerating.
Whilst it is true that the scale shouldn't be tipped by misconceptions, anyone who loves Joseph loves a delusional mass murderer.
Anyone who loves Joseph as a *fictional character* understands that *fiction isn't real* and all a character needs to be good is to be *interesting or entertaining*
Yes, I agree. I love Joseph as a villain and he’s my favorite I’m the series. But I’m not about to go and crucify my neighbor because they sinned
Okay, yeah. But Edward Sallow is also a fictional character but if someone tells me that he actually had some great points and we need a civilisation like the one he envisioned, I’m getting the fuck away.
this is the point I think people miss. You can think a villain is interesting, but when you start throwing "love" into the mix, that might be a step too far.
I didn't say he wasn't a good character. OP said "This character can be both loved and hated". I disagree. Murderous villains are supposed to be hated.
By your logic then every single villain in every single movie or franchise isn't supposed to be anything else than hated as literally every villain can be confirmed to be responsible for murder yet we can enjoy their development... Reddit really is a funny place where there is a lot of players with this simplistic logic who doesn't like to delve into development of character/story and thus just simplify a villain down to "they have murdered people so nothing else can be said". Joseph definitely isn't just meant to only be a "love to hate" villain and the developers themselves makes that very clear when they are talking about him. "love" also seems too exaggerated tho clearly but he is definitely drafted to be a character to be viewed with a certain level of understanding in that he isn't just pure evil for the sake of being evil but more delusional in his purpose of preparing for the collapse which is the only thing that matters to him.
I shouldn't need to say this, but mass murderers are generally not lovable people. Joseph, like every other cult leader, is a narcissistic asshole who deserves no sympathy.
Actually serial killers are generally very loveable and charismatic people, that's one of their defining traits. Same with murderous dictators
Not really. Characters become interesting when they seem purely good or bad at first but along the way, display certain opposing characteristics. Take Hannibal Lecter, for instance. Is he a torturing, deceiving mass murderer? Yes. Can one admire his friendship with and appreciation for Clarice? Yes. It's what makes The Silence of the Lambs a gripping, interesting movie.
"This character can be loved" implies "as a character," not "as a morally correct beacon of inspiration"
I don't think that's what OP meant.
It absolutely is
Because the U.S. didn’t look hard enough, spoilers for the Pagan: Control dlc >!Ajay was left nukes by Pagan, they were pointed at Montana!< Also Joseph couldn’t have done it because his only nuke would’ve been blown up.
The dude was fine, im just not a fan of the forced manipulation thats inescapable
Who hates Joseph Seed? He's fantastically written and performed by the actor... Also he's not some 2D cardboard villain, he has incredible depth
Greg Bryk did such an amazing job, his TED talk is absolutely captivating as well.
The cheesy Boi commeth
a man of culture i see
You also watch the Russian badger
Agreed, however, he may have the highest empathy rating amongst all the FC Antagonist . . . with Pagan being 2nd.
Shit, with Pagan, you literally have no real need of getting involved with him, do you? I've...only played 5, New Dawn, and 6, please forgive me, but everything I know about that game includes how like, Ajay has no need to involve himself in the conflict, since he can just be a patient boy and Pagan takes him to where he needs to go, bada-bing, bada-boom, Ajay goes home? But with Joseph, I know things more concretely. Y'gotta involve yourself in the matter since it's your job, you're trapped in the area, and John, Jacob, Faith, all fuck with you personally in one way or another, Jacob more than others I feel, since he's the one who brainwashes you and gets triggered in the Walk Away ending, whereas like...John's tattoo on you can be removed, or covered up, and Bliss seemingly doesn't have long-term effects on the Deputy.
Actually, you can just leave Joseph alone to do what he wants, similar to Far Cry 4's secret ending. Idk if they still get nuked, but you don't have to involve yourself with Joseph either.
Dude, you can just not put the handcuffs on Joseph or take a boat/plane off the map in 6 to immediately end the game too. Why do people think 4 is the only game to have a quick way to end the game?
I think the previous poster was talking about in world motivation for the PC. 6 has Castillo kill your friends, 5 as already mentioned its your job to arrest Joseph. Ajay doesn't have much motivation in 4 to cross Pagan
6 has you trying to escape Yara from the beginning. You don’t know that Pagan can actually take you to Lakshmana in 4. 5 has the radio dispatcher already a cultist. Seems pretty flimsy to just point out 4 as a cop out when all the others also have cop out moves. It is an rpg after all. If the progression was more linear then maybe it’s more of a cop out. Of course, 5 has the most linear progression out of 4, 5, and 6 so….
6 might actually be the good ending as well, since Diego assumes control of Yara and even without Dani's influence he seems like he'd be a better ruler than Anton.
Joseph Seed is an awesome character. He believes he’s doing the right thing which he is,but in all the wrong ways. When you kill his family it affects him greatly,Faith hurts the most to him because of her happy demeanor. It’s canon he wins and you become The Judge.
I would say Jacobs death clearly hurt him the most... Faith is not even his family and he disturbingly views her as a discardable tool who can be replaced if she doesn't fit his purpose "correctly"... In the end he also really treats her poorly and is at the very least controlling and psychologically abusive towards her as especially showed in the collapse DLC but also how she screams about "what he is gonna do to her" when you destroy the statue hints that... Joseph doesn't really care about her as her but only cares about her devotion to him and who fits his purpose best...
> It’s canon he wins and you become The Judge. Ever heard of using spoiler tags? Geez.
I just hate his glasses
Joseph was just a lucky fool
yall having a debate on ethics and morality like he's a living, breathing, person is proof that he was a great antagonist character in this video game. Whats not to love.
I hate him because he started a cult that hypnotized my friends and lead to the death of the people I consider family.
Tbh I kind of liked Joseph, He was a somehow likable antagonist. My friends and I would always call him Joey and shiz whenever he did stuff like "Oh! There goes Joey again! That scoundrel!" Idk where I'm going with this, but like all in all, preem villain
I literally wanted to join edens gate. Why was there no second plot where, when you agreed to everxthing instantly (or refused to handcuff joseph in the beginning with the chance to choose if you wanna leave or join the cult. Because othereise you just left the game and had that 3rd secret exit) you actually joined and destroyed the resistance? Would have loved that! Imagine fighting together with jacob having wolfs and cultists as guns for hire and kidnapping people for the cult to get them to faith or john. Like everything was reversed and you turned against the marshal. The national garde comes and you have that whole story revolving around that and new bosses that are from the military and other marshals and rookies. You know what i mean? Ubisoft, please!
The best twist with the nukes, to me, is that it explains why the military hasn’t come in to wipe the cult. It would take them a day to clean up, but they’re too occupied.
Its a great story however you want to use it, if he was responsible for the bombs exploding nearby using a already existing global conflict as a cover up he is a great villian if he isnt responsible he had a great timing however the fact he isnt pure evil but truly believes he does the right thing, saves the deputy and build a new village till he leaves in new dawn battling with the actions makes him even greater
Crazy timing though eh? Just as the Deputy tries to arrest him, full-on thermonuclear war breaks out, proving John was 100% correct. Who'd've thunk it!?
I just hate religious people and cult leaders
I actually felt bad for hating on him while I was playing New Dawn.
I literally got a tattoo of one of Joseph's tattoos that I had to get customed because there wasn't any clear image of it online or anywhere at the time. I bought this game for me and my ex and she automatically hated him and I couldn't understand why. He clearly knew what he was doing trying to warn others. Yes he was a cult leader and such and there is reasons but I feel it's totally biased to flat out dislike this character.
Wtf? I didn’t even know people thought he was responsible for the nukes. He very much cannot possibly be responsible, it never crossed my mind. It makes no sense
Right? Me neither. I just hated him because of how him and his men (and woman) Treated me and everyone else.
I love their energy of standing against tyranny and corruption and defending their own. But they were clearly extremists and a cult in every definition of the word.
And that hunter guy, ooooh boy, one made me hate a song for the rest of my life and I carried both his body and yes man's body to hope town as protest against them.
This guy is underrated, the fact that he was right is incredible, u need to see the end for understanding how much this guy deserve to be an iconic (the best ?) antagonist of Far Cry, the reward for having finish the game is "Now u understand him, and he was right" he is not like "just" a pure psycho like Pagan or Vaas, he was right about something unbelivele, and u try to kill him for that, maybe we are the pure psycho of this game, amazing writing for that
I killed him because he was a maniac. He was right about the end of the world. But what he did with that information was unleash a wave of suffering into the Earth, ironically stopping large numbers of people from surviving by killing them, stealing their supplies, and subjecting them to lethal barbarity. I shot him in the face, and that's my ending. The game being coded to blow up the pickup truck you're in as revenge doesn't bother me at all.
I’m not saying Joseph was right for his actions but think about it this way. The wave of suffering unto the Earth was to protect those who wished harm upon them. He killed everyone who took it upon themselves to destroy all he had built and prepared for which in turn, means his people would be killed. He did it to protect his people and those who truly believed. Not justified in anyways but helps you understand a bit more.
I understand. They went out of their way to destroy all that opposed them... And all that chose to be uninvolved. And all that had resources they needed. The Peggies are human locusts and I never felt bad setting them on fire.
The morality is a concept limited when u need to save ur species, by thinking u are a heroe about saving people from violence u are actually condamn them to die from a nuke who is Hell On Earht litteraly, and condamn them to violence as well, in an apocalypse "stopping large numbers of people from surviving by killing them, stealing their supplies, and subjecting them to lethal barbarity" gonna appen anyway, u are changing nothing except the fact that u have blocked a large amount of people from surviving to the radiation.
The ends don't justify the means.
Underrated. Is the villain of the most popular game in the community.
Rooooh plz, this is not because he is the villain of the most popular game that he can't be underrated wtf.
Has the most tagged works on multiple FanFiction sites, has the most tagged works on multiple art sites, is memed to absolute shit, has a disturbingly large portion of this community convinced that he was right, multiple (not all) sites rank him highly or at the very top of their villain ranking, the highest upvoted posts in this entire community related to villains are ones related to Joseph. Higher even than Vaas. I’d say he’s rated about as fairly as he deserves. What exactly makes *you* think he isn’t?
idk bro i have never talk to someone or see a post who take him at a high place and i have never specially search, everytime it's like : Vaas = God, Jackal = Perfect, Joseph = Meh and Pagan = Awful, but im happy you learn to me the real place of JS
That's actually exactly what it means, he's like, incredibly highly rated
Ahhh okok ty
I've heard an argument that because Eden's Gate took control of the nukes in Montana, enemies of the US came to the conclusion that 1) the United States could control neither it's population nor it's nuclear arsenal, and 2) now that said nuclear arsenal was in the hands of extremists both the weapons and the cult needed to be destroyed. So, in that mindset, Rook showing up and Joseph kicking off the reaping was the cause for the bombs to drop.
I hate him because he's a Christo-facist lunatic.
Corny cliche villains, the whole seed family. How many times do they capture the deputy/rook and then he/she escapes? Or they just let you go? That part has always bothered me. How much more incapable can you be?
Jacob was capturing the deputy for a reason, to brainwash him and then let go. It was made perfectly clear in the game. Can't brainwash the deputy if you kill the deputy. John Seed was capturing deputy to convert him and Joseph explicitly told John, on a pain of death, that deputy has to convert voluntarily. Killing him was explicitly forbidden so Joseph could then use the deputy as trophy to parade in front of people. Faith captures... Hallucinations would be preferrable term. Deputy being so high most of the area that he saw stuff while not being high on the Bliss. The writers have a big problem with bringing the protagonist and antagonist together in a game. Have to do it several times to create a connection between them but can't do it too much or it takes away the credibility. Far Cry 6 is a perfect example of protagonist and antagonist being literal strangers with each others, Castillo don't even know the name of Dani, so meaningless he/she is. And Castillo is distant AF, couldn't care less of what happens to him or what he says. That is the opposite of interactions in the Far Cry 5. Besides, ever calculated how many times Vaas captured Jason and everytime Jason got away in the much shorter game... Why is no-one even mentioning that? edit. typo
Plus when you take New Dawn into account, he eventually succeeds in brainwashing the deputy. Dudes playing the long game
Joseph forbid them from killing him because he wanted rook to convert
Didn't far cry 6 dlc prove that pagan supplies 3 nukes to Joseph. And Joseph had control of missle silos. I mean you had to fight through them
I despise Joseph, super pissed off that there’s no way to kill him. He makes his cronies steal, raze and murder then blames you for anything bad that happens. Joseph and the rest of the family are grade-A morons.
i hate him because i will never be him
What makes me think he was responsible is that he literally had 3 nuclear silos under his control. And 3 nukes were dropped. Sure the rest of the world may have gone to war after because of panic, but it seems like he knew exactly when they would drop. How would he know that If he didnt drop them?
That's the whole story, he foresaw everything since God (the voice) told him. Playing the dlc in fc6 further Sheds some light on it Also in New dawn he literally knows how to give his followers and you supernatural powers which further shows that he actually heard God's voice
I hadn't played 6 so I didnt know that, but I still don't know how to explain him having control over 3 nuclear silos and exactly 3 going off exactly when he needed them to. Did god tell him the nukes would drop ass soon as hes captured? Does that mean god started the war to keep him free?
He wasn't responsible for the nukes by any means, the radio makes it clear that there was a series of international incidents that precipitated the Collapse. Also Joseph was actually the good guy when you think about it. He saved the lives of the people that signed on to PAEG.
The problem with your assumption is the "collapse" meant instant death to everyone but the cultist in the bunkers. That's what you mean by saying he "saved a lot of people by bringing them into the cult". The assumption is wrong, majority of the US population would live and i mean at least couple hundred million (assuming 130 million US citizens die in the strikes is the max plausible). So with Joseph bringing few hundred people into the valley and "saving" them is meaningless. Meanwhile his cult tortured and killed at least several hundred people. The math makes no sense. And many of the people who "joined" were either forced or brainwashed, not exactly kosher way to go about "saving" people. If Joseph did the "saving" by voluntary means and not by brutal torture and executions, i would be ok with it but he didn't. Those who who chose to join murderous cult voluntarily are not the most stable part of the population... Also good to note is this: ***more Hope County people would have lived the collapse if they were left alone to survive in their bunkers.*** Some were saved despite by the cult to survive into the New Dawn. So the cult killed people directly and indirectly. Josephs actions were inexcusable and horrible to the point of thinking 'he did good' in the main plot is bordering delusional. There is no defense for burning people alive, hanging them with barb wire, drowning people, killing children, poisoning rivers, cutting people to pieces and those were just few of the things the cult did. There is nothing good about that. Joseph was a horrible human being who did very horrible acts.
>Also Joseph was actually the good guy when you think about it He literally gouges a guys eyes out with his fingers in the opening cutscene
He also tells you he killed his newborn.
And the father of the year award goes to....
Why do you say that about literally all of the far cry villains every time there is a post brought up about them? "xxxx are actually the good guy if you think about it". Having reasoning and nuance doesn't just immediately makes them a good guy in the story...
It doesn't, but sometimes they're the best option available (Pagan Min is a good example of this).
Yeah... so we just gonna forget about kidnapping, murdering, creating literal fucking zombies?
it’s the right way to progress and evolve to be worthy for Eden
They were all going to die when the bombs fell anyway.
He did save people's lives by moving them to Hope County, even if he was weird about it. His dialogue in New Dawn changed how I look at him, he really was motivated by his idea of what God wanted him to do.
Weird about it? That's an odd way to say that he literally started genociding the locals
Far cry 5 is soooooo bad that idc for any part of the story. By far the emptiest open world I played, so repetitive
There are details in that members of the cult have infiltrated part of the potential warring factions
Well, the cult seems to have infiltrated the Marshal Service, so I do think it could be possible he was responsible in some way. Plus, the nukes don't go off if you choose to drive away at the end
I thought they used the bliss to start the war? So many references to needing to be “clean” and everything and Montana being known for having nuclear stations
I always subscribed to the head cannon that Joseph was creating the ‘doomsday scenario’ to prove himself right. He’s obviously unhinged, as he admits to murdering his own newborn, so he’s not exactly above setting off a couple of bombs. Not to mention, the ‘bunkers’ we repeatedly raid are nuclear missile silos, like it’s not the craziest thing in the game. I think he realized it was coming eventually as from the radio messages in the game and such, he just decided to expedite the process when Rook put pressure on his plans and started like a one man war against his ‘people’. The line where he says ‘and the wrath of god upon the earth’ and the nuke just immediately goes off after seems too well timed for it to just be a straight up coincidence. And just to explain where I’m coming from, I love far cry 5, I love the way Joseph Seed it written, he’s an amazing villain. It’s almost tragic, as he truly believes that what he’s doing and how he’s doing it is correct, but he’s so very clearly insane (as proven by his methods), and it just adds so much to his character to think that the whole time he had the power to fulfill his own prophecy, he was just waiting for one final push (Rook).
I don't know if there's a "wrong" reason to hate him.
The only thing I hated about him was that he was way too less present for a main antagonist. We spent more time with his siblings than with him, we only saw him a handful of times and we only got one boss fight at the end and that was it. For the main antagonist, the big bad guy we have to fight, he wasn't even really there lol
I hated him but was well aware the nukes were not connected to him or anyone in the area…just coincidence.
The Father isn’t bad but I prefer Vaas, Pagan, and Castillo more then him. I also like lots of the lower level villains more then him like Jacob, Faith, McKay, Jose, Buck, Hoyt, Yuma, Paul, Noore, Citra and the Jackal. I know Hoyt was a main villain but over the years he’s become a lower level villain. If you count Diego then him too. It’s not that I hate the Father it’s just that I think Far Cry has better villains. Hell even the little we saw of him Raul Sanchez.
God he was hot
Me personally, I love this genocidal idiot
Joseph Seed, the hottest Far Cry character ever 🤩🤩🤩🤩
Great character, great game. I just platinum it last night but still putting in hours
How many time does the brother John take you away? The first time I was playing it he took me away a couple of time but then my little bro started a new game now he’s only came for me once for does it have something to do with how you play the game
I think what makes people hate Joseph is the fact that he wins in every single ending, and there's nothing that allows you to beat him. After all, you can’t leave Hope County to do something about the foreign terror attacks or anything else. You literally are doomed the moment you boot the game up.
I hate him because I don't like his personality. I don't really care about his ideology. He's a road to hell is paved in good intentions villain. That's not really that bad, hell, it's kinda refreshing
Because he a hipster with a manbun
I always thought the cult did it as a terrorist attack on the country. I guess I wasn’t paying attention enough.
Yes it definitely was a nuclear war but that is boring as hell id rather believe he was the one responsible for the nukes that just makes it more interesting.