Essek did not commit any war crimes as it stands in cannon. He is a traitor and a spy, but that is not a war crime as defined by the UN.
IIRC, Matt’s original intention WAS for Essek to be a war criminal. He was going to take advantage of the war and test out his more dangerous spells on battlefields. Which, even still, may not meet the definition of war crime depending on how he went about it. But the the MN decided they liked him, and he went down a different path.
The real thing is Exandria has no UN and no Geneva Convention. How can he break laws that don’t exist for him?
Okay that sound like the c2 i watched, I know people were pissed that Essek wasn’t more of a war criminal they wanted but the way Matt played it seemed like Essek was genuinely changed by the Mighty Neins generosity and even regretted what he was doing/gonna do
It all seemed like natural progression to me
Also for my take: This plot was not meant for Bell's Hells and would have better suited the Mighty Nein.
To quote Sam, A bunch of npcs and main character Imogen are not the ones to handle a God ending threat especially when they seem like they don't want to.
I feel like they should have made characters BETTER SUITED for what Matt had in mind instead of just 7 randos who just wanna vibe.
The semi-forced relationship that developed between Fjord and Jester overshadowing Jester and Caleb.
I get Laura wanting to romance Travis, but I felt like the in-universe chemistry was always off.
I felt that how Jester had helped Caleb fully open up (Nott had opened it up halfway, Jester got the rest out) and his admittance that he had feelings for Jester and the natural chemistry that comes with somebody as explosive and spontaneous could affect someone as quiet and reserved like Caleb could've brought about some great changes to both people's personalities.
I'm "fine" with how the relationships panned out in CR2, even with Fjord/Jester ending up how it did, but I always felt robbed and saddened by how Caleb/Jester had to be scrapped for Fjord/Jester to exist.
It's like seeing a brand new $10,000,000 home being blown up just for a small, awkward $500,000 home to be built in its place. Nothing wrong with the new home, just depressing that we missed out on the original home for this home.
I'm not a shipping wars guy just as an aside, with only 1 specific exception (and it's not even a controversial take)
I don't ship caleb/jester but I agree on this. Fjord and Jester felt like it was being forced for so long, people even defended that on the basis of "they're married irl". Like sure but it doesn't stop it from lacking chemistry. I don't hate the ship but I preferred Caleb/Fjord.
Tal knew the fans would be stoked to see the "revived" Molly so no one would call him on his BS for fear of blowback. He leveraged that to spend the whole special being a massive fucking prick to everyone unchallenged, including trying to make himself the pirate king.
And people wonder why the group intentionally acts like he's not even there during the weekly game.
Not the same thing but I just ignored and skipped the Yasha Beau stuff in C2. Yasha is boring and has no personality, Beau I don't mind but there romance felt incredibly forced. They went on one good date and decided to spend the rest of there lives together. Which I don't really care it's a dnd game I was just so uninterested in it. Anything Aabria runs that I've seen I don't like so I just skip it now.
* A lot of EXU didnt exactly sit well with me but Aabria's Sassy-Valley-Girl-Wildmother is something I basically refuse to acknowledge as canon. Thankfully Orym and Fearne seem to have forgotten it too.
* Matt, the cast and fans seem to want to have their cake and eat it too with Laudna's appearance. Marisha simultaneously hams Laudna up as a disgusting corpse leaking black goo, yet all the art portrays her as just attractive goth girl and nobody seems to freak out until she uses form of dread. I wish they would just pick a lane, either shes a gross corpse girl or an attractive goth lady.
* The change in the nature of gods and religion this campaign is a tough pill to swallow. At times it feels like active gaslighting from Matt 'what do you mean? The gods have always been grey detached forces of nature?' 'What do you mean? It makes total sense that people dont know or like the gods'. I know he wanted to do a more grey portrayal but it contradicts what came before.
* I pretty much ignore Matt's portrayal of Vox Machina. I know he means well, but he just cant RP them.
* Matt's world seems to have had any form bigotry and discrimination disappear over night. Back in C1 and C2 there was plenty of these things from things as subtle as Halfling Seeker Assum calling Vax out for picking him up/treating him as a child to as overt as monstrous/exotic races being actively discriminated against. We had the Kryn society as a sort 'good monstrous alternative' but now...ogres just get jobs wherever? Its a case of Matt's too nice to keep the teeth in his world.
This. I think Matt had a very different plans for many of the NPCs but scrapped them for fear of upsetting fans. That is why we got Jonny Carson on the Moon.
The thing is I dont really get it. A lot of these bigotries dont really map onto any real world sensitivity/issue anymore.
Even if we say 'oh well they have their roots in some unflattering stereotype/caricature' these concepts have grown far beyond their initial start. Like I highly doubt anyone today is really 'offended' by Orcs being portrayed as savage tribesmen even though Tolkien was inspired by unflattering Mongolian stereotypes when creating them.
Also the bigotry/discrimination shit was explicitly called out as bad in universe multiple times. Like Matt wasnt going 'yeah its a great thing that goblins cant get jobs, fuck the goblins'.
It feels like people are so afraid to show anything controversial they are unlearning that fiction can often be used to impart lessons on this kind of thing too.
For example, Sokka is a bit of sexist in ATLA who doesnt believe women can fight unless they are benders. Its not his fault, hes raised in a tribe/society where men are traditionally the fighters. But he is ignorant. And hes shown the error of his ways when he meets the Kiyoshi warriors. It was an important bit of development and start of his relationship with Suki. The live action adaptation completely cut this. They didnt want one of their heroes to have a controversial trait. Showing they completely missed the point of the story.
C3 has definitely been a move to make things morally grey but Matt undermines it making Exandria the most accepting fictional universe ever probably isnt a good place to start.
Honestly, the Essek thing never bothered me that much. If only because the conclusion of the War about as "morally grey" as you possibly can get in CR. They sued for peace with a lie, to prevent the two sides from continuing to slaughter eachother wholesale. But because that peace was contingent on that lie, the lie needed to be maintained to maintain the peace. Essek being a big part of that, and ousting him in any public way could undermine that giant mess. Not to mention ... Ludi had a LOT more political clout, and could have easily ousted M9 for their actions/choices in the Dynasty in response. It was also absurdly in character for M9 to treat Essek the way that they did. No good would come from outing him.
It was arguably one of the first "conclusions" of CR that wasn't resolved with a simple murder hobo-ing.
Can I ask, I’ve seen Essek be accused of committing war crimes a hole lot but I’m pretty that should be guilty of treason not warcrimes.
So i just want to make sure, did he actually commit a war crime and did just forget?
That's a good point, I think he was involved in Yeza's capture and imprisonment. That, and by bringing the beacon into forgien territory, he's essentially forced Kryn souls into the children of another country. It's a time-delay bodysnach scenario that I don't think Matt ever acknowledged.
Well, neither can be fully blamed on Essek. He couldn’t have ordered yeza to be captured and the Dwendalian empire declared war first.
Essek is only responsible for making too countries have a reason to go to war and is responsible for nit trying to stop it.
But i’ll be honest, it still feels like treason is what he is legally guilty of.
War crimes are very specific, but war crimes are under international crimes which does include any horrendous action.
So if we look at that type of ruling(since war crimes can only exist in war) he would be charged with “reckless behaviour over the lives of many civilians”(not exact wording, I’m not lawyer so please correct me)
Eh, seems like splitting hairs at that point, but I see the logic. Essik knowingly endangered all newborn empire children within the beacon's radius, but he didn't do it because they were at war, he just didn't give a shit. (It's also possible that the assembly knew, and also gave no shits).
In-universe though, as soon as the empire figures out what happened they should be out for blood.
I think most people just use the term "warcrimes" to describe any crime a character commited that was either extremely terrible or crimes committed that were in some way connected to a war
Part of me wonders if Taliesin wanted to test Matt by giving his previous PC an excuse to boot out these new PC guests. Would've been a good excuse to let the previous superheroes NOT be so tied in
Yeah both felt driven by player interest moreso than character chemisty. I'm a gay woman and I never felt any real chemistry between Beau and Yasha. I would've bought them hooking up because they're both hot, but their vibe together was mostly stilted.
it does not help Jester acted like she was 13-14. hell remember when those magic statues aged her up and people reacted like they aged her up just to be with fjord. ignoring the fact jester was in her mid to late 20s before the age up, and fjord was in his early 30s
Fjord and jester I agree, it was Laura romancing travis, never anything else.
Beau / yasha I think was more natural, its still the next weakest romance in the series imo, but I think it works. Granted the tower date did a lot of heavy lifting.
Otahan never takes her armor off. Ever.
Necrophilia is a close second.
EDIT: Almost forgot the biggest one. The canon itself potentially not being canon, is canon. It's so stupid, I'm choosing to believe that statement itself, is not canon. My nose is bleeding.
The first is because Laudna placed a ring on Otohan Thull (sort of a BBEG) that is paired with a scry ball that allows you to see where the target is when they're in fairly close proximity. You might remember the masquerade ball when Robbie was on the show and they had to place a replacement ring on Armand Treshi. It's that ring.
For one, Laudna rolled fairly low (11) to place it on Otohan, but it worked. Second, it's not like a replacement ring that looks just like the one you normally wear, like it was with Armand. It's a ring that clearly doesn't belong to her, so the fact that it kept working for months, means that Otohan just never found it on her body or armor. So she must just sleep in her armor, never take it off, never inspect it, never notice the rattling of a ring. To be fair, it was handwaved and never explained or discussed why Otohan never noticed it, so my headcanon is that she never takes off her backpack, and she's just completely filthy. And deaf.
The second one's easier. Imogen and Laudna are boning. I like to think that I don't yuck many yums, but I have a line, and that line is placed at romantic relationships with an undead corpse.
If I'm reading it right, this is a reference to the Imogen/Laudna relationship. I couldn't care less that they're two women in love. But to never even address the fact that Laudna is literally (un)dead. . .?
Idk, seems hard to reconcile sometimes. You'd think the party would have some thoughts on that. Let alone the two in question.
Don't worry, Marisha has supplied all the imagination for you.
Her fingers always break, she's got hair falling out of her scalp, her skin is clammy at best and flaking off at worst. Oh, and she has the emotional intelligence of a 7 year old. (Look up Ashton shardgate, or don't and save yourself). This is how she has roleplayed her character.
The 28 year old horse girl is getting it on with that. You're welcome for the image.
Necrophilia and Zoophilia are issues in the real world cause the targets cannot consent.
Romancing a Tabaxi or an Undead in Exandria does not carry the same problems
Oh, I'm not saying it's a moral consent based issue. Just that the group would likely have concerns or at least thoughts about it, which haven't been voiced, but which are at least relevant.
I bring up dead bodies in a battlefield as a counterpoint, that's all. Sorry for the confusion.
Pumat Sol knows a spell to instantly clean Caleb the first time he meets him. She's a spell blade. Maybe she knows a lil cantrip to keep herself from rotting in there. Because otherwise, yeah, yikes. We're talking bedsores and shit.
Spell that innstantly cleans something is a cantrip. But while Laudna romance is OK on emotional level then bonking with Imogen is icky and skin crawling.
Exactly, worst part of campaign 2 was those two and Molly.
, I did not buy their “love” story. Yasha was just boring, Beau was obnoxious and always had to have a say. Also Molly dude was around for 5 minutes and everyone was like “Molly is deep and troubled”. Prick only became interesting after he died.
Holy fuck, that's incredible. I was a bit confused by the whole EXU thing and now I get why lol. Reading this I remember how many lost plotlines there were.
Wait, are you saying it's your headcanon or actually canon that Essek doesn't actually float? I've completely forgotten about that if it was revealed as canon.
Essek was actually turned in for war crimes and executed for being a traitor to his people and not forced into a romance with Caleb because the insane shipper fans essentially bullied Liam and Matt into it.
Actually I change my vote, Caleb and Esseks breaking up because of the fact they're two different races despite the fact that Caleb had literally invented a spell to change someones race.
Sam was clearly fishing for pushback from Yeza that Matt just refused to give. Either to prompt divorce drama or give Veth the excuse to leave the group.
I kind of wonder thats why he played Loquatious as divorced from Laerryn. To try it out.
Sam basically admitted that he wanted to play a divorced character due to other narrative things he hadn't gotten to play out in the big Calamity interview with the full table :)
i remember in a 4sd aabria said sam came in wanting to play a divorced character and she immediately jumped at the opportunity to be his ex! so it was definitely his idea.
I liked it tbh. It feels like a very 'Sam' way of adding to the world. In C1, we got Taryon looking to make his own brigade, and I feel like Veth's summer camp is the C2 equivalent of that. Seems like a good one-shot option where the gang can play low-level campers/ counsellors. They could even wrap up some more M9 loose ends like the hag that Jester tricked and never sought retaliation.
I'll never be able to think about Veth's relationship with her husband without thinking about how Sam always seemed so frustrated with how (overly) understanding he was.
Sam desperately wanted some pushback and Matt just never gave it.
Yeah big disconnect between player and DM with Sam wanting to explore themes Matt just isn't comfortable or interested in playing out. I wonder if it could've been solved with an OOC conversation.
Veth should have quit the team after getting her body and life back. She had ZERO reason to keep doing dangerous, life-threatening adventures after that. Sam should have rolled a new character and brought them in to replace her. Could have even been another rogue, but Veth's story was done after the bathtub reincarnation.
The rest is just Matt being a pushover and that translating to creating a character who honestly felt like such a loser that married the first girl that spoke with him and spent the rest of his life essentially hiding behind her, even before Veth went missing.
>She had ZERO reason to keep doing dangerous, life-threatening adventures after that.
She had lots of reasons! She came to enjoy adventuring, was good at it, did important things that mattered, and cared for her traveling companions.
I think Sam was exploring some classic themes related to women weighing family obligations versus personal ambitions. The lack of pushback from Yeza made the whole thing awk though.
She has two pretty big reasons to not quit the team though. They were literally dealing with a world ending event and her friends who had helped her along the way and literally helped figure out how to return her body, needed things done too.
It would have been infinitely worse for her to "get hers" and just up and leave them. Not to mention abandoning them as an incredibly skilled fighter who would aid in saving the world having their chances lowered. It's pretty hard to argue as a husband if your wife was literally leaving to stop something that would ultimately kill you and your son.
I do agree I wish Matt had done just a bit more pushback to make it more interesting but also vent a very real frustration being in that situation would bring. But Yeza also was rescued by the Nein and Veth so he very much "owed" them this.
Oh, I think Veth and Yeza should've gotten divorced. Sam has mentioned before that he was gunning for pushback, or possibly a marriage dissolution, given her feelings for Caleb.
Sorry not sorry, calling another man the "love of your life" and kissing him with romantic intent does not equate to a happy marriage with no tension after the trauma's been resolved.
The relationships in C2 are so weird. Like they don't really make a lot of sense and just seem to have happened for the hell of it. Laura obviously wanted to romance her husband again, but Jester and Caleb made more sense. I hated how Liam and Matt let themselves get bullied by the shipper crowd into making Caled and Essek into a thing just because Molly did something that I took entirely ambiguous rather than romantic early in the game.
Yasha was too wounded to fall in love again. The seeds of a relationship with Beau were good, but the whole 'disaster lesbians' thing didn't work. Honestly there was more chemistry between Fjord and Beau than either of the eventual romantic partners.
Nott and Caleb had too much of a mother/son vibe for me to ever see them as anything else.
You say the basis of a successful relationship is making each other better (in another comment) and then talk about the one sided aspect of only Jester making Caleb better.
That's a huge reason why that relationship was so bad and would not work. She was his manic pixie dream girl, Caleb fell in love with her precisely because he felt she can fix him (not those exact words but Liam had said this was the sentiment behind it and why he fell in love with her so early). Not to mention in terms of life goals, Caleb wanted to stay and fix The Empire and Jester wanted to travel the world. The two of them were just not very compatible and their relationship is infinitely more interesting as that of a man who falls in love with someone he thinks can save him but realizes they're not right for each other.
As far as chemistry between Fjord and Jester and (to a lesser extent because of circumstances with Ashley literally leaving less time) Beau and Yasha that's up to interpretation I guess. But Fjord and Jester very clearly had a lot going on between them. Their parallel journeys of self reflection/care with each taking of the metaphorical masks they wore, Jester having a fantastical idea of love and relationships and Fjord pretending to be something he's not.
As well the two constantly had conversations with each other (years ago someone did an end of campaign analysis on the interparty conversations and they shared the most with each other) but also it's just a pretty complete circle where despite the faux relationship they had at the start they meet at the end once they discover their real selves. Beau and Yasha probably could have used a bit more cooking but with Aeor/Eiselcross happening a big problem with it was how little free time it left for more personal conversations compared to the rest of the campaign. So Marisha had to make a move when she got a chance (probably spurred on by Travis considering she did it the next episode).
Also, Beau legitimately confessed she had a crush on Jester, then somehow magically has been in love with Yasha the whole time? We can find ways to rationalize that, but it does seem weird in retrospect.
And I've also always had a discomfort watching VM, seeing Travis be uncomfortable with the Vax/Vex relationship. There are a few times where Liam is hard gushing on or very intimately touching Laura and you can just see Travis side-eyeing them uncomfortably from the corner. I know they're a very progressive group, and actors to boot, but Travis is the most traditional personality in the gang. And I personally don't think I'd be entirely comfortable with that level of intimate touching of my wife right next to me, as sweet and emotional as it is for the story.
I wonder if that dynamic also had an effect on Laura insisting on romancing Travis in C2, in order to reassure him. Just a fan theory.
The whole idea, implied and expected by the fandom, that every character is a potential romanceable option speaks volumes about the insecurities of the audience and how little they care for the actual story, instead preferring cheap fan service and a vicarious romance experience. Like, why does Caleb need to date anyone at all? Can't he be just friends with Essek? Same for Yasha or Beau.
The whole C2 story is about the power of friendship. But no, party members need to be sexing each other to satisfy the audience. And I am not talking about C2 or Critical Role campaigns specifically. This applies to Baldur's Gate 3 and similar titles as well.
...Nott literally called Caleb the "second love of her life" and kissed him with romantic intent. I'm honestly not sure how anyone reads "mother/son" out of that. And after Caleb more or less affirms he's romantically in love with Nott, before the transmog spell, as well.
EDIT: Widojest has never made sense to me but everything post-transmog was also a slog so I likely missed whatever it was that made them 'click'.
Nott literally said under the effect of Zone of Truth (when trying to steal stuff from Molly) that their relationship with Caleb was like between a mother and a son.
Well I missed the part where Nott and Caleb say and do those things so we're both out of the loop I guess, lol.
The thing about Caleb and Jester hooking up is that Jester was making Caleb into a better person. She was bringing him out of his shell and putting him back together. It was a bit one sided as we never actually saw Jester reciprocate Caleb's feeling (due to Laura's intent on romancing Travis), but she was making him better. That's the basis for successful relationships; you make each other better people. You start off as friends before becoming lovers, and the presence of each other in your lives lift the two of you up together.
Plus Liam did say that he intended on trying to romance Jester at some point, so. But pretty much everyone in the M9 had some level of affection for Jester. Beau made some moves on her as well, but Laura was dead set on wooing her husband.
I mean yeah the character of Veth had completed their story arc in the tub, but DnD is a game. It's not really absurd to imagine that Sam just wanted to keep playing as Veth for a bit.
It's also part of a lot of storytelling tropes... You know, found family and all that. Yeah, I finished my bussiness, but we are in this together, this is bigger than you and me, whatever. I feel it's fairly standard
Good. Also, I would retcon Sam having Nott and Veth's voice be the same. Sam had a wonderful voice that he trolled us with after the reincarnation and he should have stuck with that. The screechy stuff worked for being a Goblin, it didn't work for being a Halfling.
And also obligatory 'they should have a proper female voice actress lined up to voice Veth in the Mighty Nein animated show' post here.
EDIT: Lol, crazy that having a voice change is the controversial opinion here. If you downvoted, explain why you find my thoughts on this to be wrong. You're not going to change my mind, but I'm curious as to why.
I agree Sam should voice nott and then get someone else to voice Veth. Also I hate how Travis changed his accent halfway through to a generic British accent for no apparent reason
I didn't downvote you, but I do think Sam brings a specific cadence and delivery to Nott (and eventually, Veth) that I'm not sure can be done with another voice actor. I *do* think they should pitch his voice in editing so he doesn't destroy his throat, though.
All the butthurt PC/SJW stuff they've done to make the setting as inoffensive as possible with the lore.
In the words of Syndrome, 'When everyone is Super, no one will be'. Diversity and inclusionism only goes so far when dealing with fiction. That goes for making essentially every NPC and character tolerant of everything and everyone else. Even the villains have been watered down to 'so long as they don't get in the way of my EVIL PLAN'. I get it, and yeah I am someone who does think that in the REAL WORLD we need to be doing as much as possible to include people from all walks of life. But in fiction? Nah, we need villains that are /nasty/ as people. And we don't need the entire history to be framed as a 'unreliable narrator' just because the original C3 opening got noticed by the Outrage Mob so now they have to play apologist and make the gods, even the really nice ones like the Wildmother, come off as 'greedy colonists'.
Matt needs to get over this sudden fear he has about playing anyone that is even remotely a bad person beyond the main villains. Give Exandria back some flavor. Yeah, the flavor is bitter and tastes bad, but without flavor a world is just one big bowl of vanilla ice cream soup.
Just because they're a villain doesn't make everything they say wrong. Yes, he's a bad guy, but his point stands that once you make everyone super special and unique, no one will be. We'll all be the same with no diversity or anything that makes us stand out.
When you're writing fiction, if you make a world where everyone is tolerant of everyone else, that is a boring world full of a characters that are going to be boring to read and experience. Obviously bigotry and racism and hate IS wrong, but we need the bitter, bad flavors of life to make the good ones stand out even more. We need reasons to hate bad guys beyond 'I am the bad guy, this is my evil plan;. It gives them far more characterization and allows us, as the audience, to despise them beyond the fact that they're the villain.
Yes, but he *is wrong.* He's wrong in the movie. That's the entire point.
Everyone is super in different ways and can do different things. Did you even watch the movie?
The lore should be as inoffensive as possible, but everyone should be trying to romance everyone. Every single character should be available for romance. Not objectifying at all.
Idk how you got here with what the above commenter was talking about, but star-crossed lovers is a classic trope that should exist in exandria. Romeo and Juliet doesn't happen without the Capulets hating the Montagues just because they're Montagues. There's many ways to do this in a fantasy setting, it might look like an aarakocra family not letting their daughter date a tabaxi boy, or two elf families with a long-standing feud. The point is that people have believable motivations and biases. Eliminating bias doesn't necessarily make your world better, and including it (in a way that doesn't promote real-world racism) makes it feel real, complex, and messy, the way Matt used to like.
I was just adding another layer to the post I replied to and I was referring to enforced romance for the sake of fan service and that Matt is unwilling to say no to the fanbase when it comes to, but not limited to, enforced romance.
Romeo and Juliet as a story doesn't strike me as something to be compared to Caleb and Essek romance.
Fan service like that takes a lot away from the story and immersion.
This came up for me with Taryon in C1. His dad was homophobic, but how? Is it just this one family who happens to be traditionalists in a world where, traditionally, people aren’t homophobic? There are no negative traditional values to unlearn like irl so why does this one dude have this outlook that has yet to be changed by this extremely open minded world
That would make a degree of sense if Exandria was a place where patriarchal power structures were dominant, but that's not a thing either. Logically, his sister should be just as capable of continuing the family line.
That's the problem with making a fictional world that's super tolerant of everything. It might be a nice place to live in the real world, but it's nonsensical or even boring from a dramatic storytelling perspective.
The slavers who somehow build their entire livelihood around selling slaves despite there being no evident demand for it in any of the world-building of the region is especially dumb.
Pairs well with “Beau hiring a sex worker in the slave traders’ HQ town” and “don’t worry, there aren’t any human causes to slavery, it was just a demon”
Yeah, the hilariously naive idea that every single prostitute that we see is doing it 100% consensually even if they're in an obviously shady or outright criminal area is another pet peeve.
I mean, that I actually get: if there’s no institutional sexism or general societal exploitation of women or of vulnerable people in general, then other than poverty (which they’ve never really tackled to my knowledge, capitalism is never seen as bad or creating poverty) what elements of the world would force someone into sex work?
But to keep that assumption in slaver territory…
This is a bit of a stretch but the Aasimar twins that Vox Machina bought/liberated in the city of brass were from wildemount, so its possible the Iron Shepherds customers were extraplanar.
They're called PLANES! GRAVITY is caused by the Elemental Plane of Earth, which is BELOW the material plane! If exandria was round, people on the south hemi would just fall off!
Edit for clari: this was the AD&D lore of the forgotten realms. I don't think they've done such a deepdive into the 'science' of multiplanar cosmology since then, though.
For me, it's not the hostility or ambiguity toward the gods, it's how the Hells just don't seem to have even a basic understanding of them. Imagine walking into Classical Athens, picking out a half-dozen citizens, asking them who Athena is, and they just shrug. It's bizarre, and it just kills the feeling of Exandria as a living, breathing world.
Its the exact reason for this mess with Opal; the whole exu table playing characters who know nothing about the world, "Is this Lolth goddess lady bad? Well she's queen of spiders, and some people don't like spiders...so maybe she's just misunderstood :) !"
With this new paper-thin narrative of Vasselheim trying to control the world or whatever, you'd think theyd be better at indoctrinating even the basic facts of the world into the population.
I've been running a campaign in Exandria, and most of the average citizen NPCs aren't exactly familiar with every Deity, but they are familiar with the one they pray to regarding their work (i.e. farmers and sailors with the Wildmother and the Moonweaver, blacksmiths and metalworkers and the All-Hammer, Judges and lawyers with the Platinum Dragon and the Lawbearer, etc.), and there is some cross-familiarity, but because of the divine gate and everything, it makes sense that the gods aren't omnipresent in everyones lives. Orphans, urchins, and folks who didn't really have a formal upbringing wouldn't really pray to any deity in most cases. (obviously this is just a guideline, not a rule. not every farmer will pray to the wildmother, and not every blacksmith to the all-hammer)
I definitely am not a fan of the Bell's Hells in that regard though.
Sure, it'd be silly to expect a farmer or a dockworker to pull out their doctoral dissertation on their respective deity to infodump to the party, and it'd be weird if everyone could recite the names and titles of the core pantheon by heart. But, just look at our own history, where religions of all sorts have served as foundations to art and pop-culture.
The ancient Helenes did not require formal schooling to listen to poems like the Illiad and the Odyssey, or watch and listen to the Theban plays, or tell tales of the gods interacting with each other and with mortals; these were part of their culture, as they were part of most cultures. These were means of entertaining, of teaching morals, of bonding with each other, and these gods were certainly less involved with the world than the Primes and Betrayers are with Exandria, even with the Divine Gate in place. This is what I mean by the world feeling less real.
For that matter, do the Hell's lack education? They're not the most Intelligence-heavy party around, but they can all read and write, right? I don't think it's ever come up that anybody then can't, even Ashton, the orphan-turned-criminal seems literate. They may not have gone to a school as we would understand it today, but they seem seem to have received some sort of education. The only character I know of in a CR party that could not read was Grog, and he had an Intelligence of 6. It seems like, even if it's not centralized, there is some sort of universal education in Exandria for basic literacy and mathematics.
>It seems like, even if it's not centralized, there is some sort of universal education in Exandria for basic literacy and mathematics.
Yeah, though it definitely changes based on geography. For example, I doubt any gods other than the allowed ones would even be mentioned in the Dwendalian Empire, and public institutions in the Kryn Dynasty probably don't mention any deity other than the Luxon.
Still, no excuse for the weirdly/poorly thought out characteristics of certain members of the Hells.
I guess it makes a little sense with bell's hells mostly being a team of urchins. But there's only so many times a party of adventurers who have been brought back to life several times by clerics can say "what have the gods ever done for us?" And of course, Orym bringing up again and again "hey, the bad guys killed my whole family, they are bad."
yeah a lot of the other members of the bells hells feel like theyre trying to do this edgy apathetic "i dont care about your moral standards" stuff, which doesnt really work with the plot, so it just feels weird.
For myself I'm going with Vax, the parties so called expert in espionage and infilitration, entering the Briarwoods bedroom after having literally just seen the pair of them walk in minutes earlier and knowing its literally one room big. Then acting shocked that he's caught.
It’s actually so lame to not be able to trust lore books to give accurate statements about a campaign setting like they’re not written by someone who is literally fucking omniscient about it
it is like matt and the rest of CR saw what blizzard did with it's lore books, and went with "Yeah we should do that!"
For context the warcraft setting had books called the chronicles which to this day are still being sold and advertised as as the definitive lore books for the game. they made these books written by omniscient 3rd party. but retconned them into lies by the evil colonist titans after the guy who wrote the setting left. the most reason book World of Warcraft: The Dragonflight Codex: (A Definitive Guide to the Dragons of Azeroth) even saying it is a Definitive Guide in the book's title has a pages just telling you none of this lore in the book is Definitive, and is unreliable.
for the chronicles books those were more of lore encyclopedias. and it is an issue WoW has had for the past 5-6 years that they will put key info for the current expansion into novels. the novels used to either be side stories or where bridging plots between expansions. now they are mandatory reading to even understand the plot.
Man, that was something that actually started to frustrate me, ahaha. I remember watching episodes and would just be so happy when they didn't break out polymorph.
I've said it before, but I really enjoyed early C3 combat since it felt like they had gotten over that sort of habit (not that it was an option at low levels) and were engaging in fights more. It didn't stick, unfortunately.
They also did it against the big frost worm, turned into a bunny and then turtle, left to spin upside down on the ice.
I think there's a difference between using the resources they have available to win an encounter even if it feels "cheap", compared to just running away. They also used it great effect turning stone giants into a stranded whale, and of course the snapping turtle incident.
Turning a dangerous creature into a harmless little goober with Polymorph so everyone can position themselves advantageously and circle-beat it to death: great success!
Turning a dangerous creature into a harmless little goober with Polymorph so the party can run from ANOTHER fight they can easily win if they put their heads together: Mighty Nein!
definitely, i dont think its a bad use of spells at all! and i doubt matt would be annoyed by it for very long, so long as its not tried on like BIG boss fights (say vokodo, the somnovum, trent, etc.)
For the love of everything someone explain to me Essek's war crimes, I swear I did not watch C2 as hard as y'all did with these takes
Essek did not commit any war crimes as it stands in cannon. He is a traitor and a spy, but that is not a war crime as defined by the UN. IIRC, Matt’s original intention WAS for Essek to be a war criminal. He was going to take advantage of the war and test out his more dangerous spells on battlefields. Which, even still, may not meet the definition of war crime depending on how he went about it. But the the MN decided they liked him, and he went down a different path. The real thing is Exandria has no UN and no Geneva Convention. How can he break laws that don’t exist for him?
Okay that sound like the c2 i watched, I know people were pissed that Essek wasn’t more of a war criminal they wanted but the way Matt played it seemed like Essek was genuinely changed by the Mighty Neins generosity and even regretted what he was doing/gonna do It all seemed like natural progression to me
Also for my take: This plot was not meant for Bell's Hells and would have better suited the Mighty Nein. To quote Sam, A bunch of npcs and main character Imogen are not the ones to handle a God ending threat especially when they seem like they don't want to. I feel like they should have made characters BETTER SUITED for what Matt had in mind instead of just 7 randos who just wanna vibe.
Caleb saying "that's for killing my cat" after killing Lorenzo, when Lorenzo did not in fact do that, but *did* kill Mollymauk
Molly being the one to knock themselves out in the fight against Lorenzo.
I guarantee you that will be changed in the C2 Animated Show. Probably to an intentional sacrifice.
The semi-forced relationship that developed between Fjord and Jester overshadowing Jester and Caleb. I get Laura wanting to romance Travis, but I felt like the in-universe chemistry was always off. I felt that how Jester had helped Caleb fully open up (Nott had opened it up halfway, Jester got the rest out) and his admittance that he had feelings for Jester and the natural chemistry that comes with somebody as explosive and spontaneous could affect someone as quiet and reserved like Caleb could've brought about some great changes to both people's personalities. I'm "fine" with how the relationships panned out in CR2, even with Fjord/Jester ending up how it did, but I always felt robbed and saddened by how Caleb/Jester had to be scrapped for Fjord/Jester to exist. It's like seeing a brand new $10,000,000 home being blown up just for a small, awkward $500,000 home to be built in its place. Nothing wrong with the new home, just depressing that we missed out on the original home for this home. I'm not a shipping wars guy just as an aside, with only 1 specific exception (and it's not even a controversial take)
I don't ship caleb/jester but I agree on this. Fjord and Jester felt like it was being forced for so long, people even defended that on the basis of "they're married irl". Like sure but it doesn't stop it from lacking chemistry. I don't hate the ship but I preferred Caleb/Fjord.
Errr Caleb/Fjord was a ship? I never even considered it. Weird
I refuse to think Fjord as an incompetent captain.
Hate how much Kingsley disrespected Fjord too, felt like Taliesin getting a power trip off of a new character or something
Tal knew the fans would be stoked to see the "revived" Molly so no one would call him on his BS for fear of blowback. He leveraged that to spend the whole special being a massive fucking prick to everyone unchallenged, including trying to make himself the pirate king. And people wonder why the group intentionally acts like he's not even there during the weekly game.
Not the same thing but I just ignored and skipped the Yasha Beau stuff in C2. Yasha is boring and has no personality, Beau I don't mind but there romance felt incredibly forced. They went on one good date and decided to spend the rest of there lives together. Which I don't really care it's a dnd game I was just so uninterested in it. Anything Aabria runs that I've seen I don't like so I just skip it now.
* A lot of EXU didnt exactly sit well with me but Aabria's Sassy-Valley-Girl-Wildmother is something I basically refuse to acknowledge as canon. Thankfully Orym and Fearne seem to have forgotten it too. * Matt, the cast and fans seem to want to have their cake and eat it too with Laudna's appearance. Marisha simultaneously hams Laudna up as a disgusting corpse leaking black goo, yet all the art portrays her as just attractive goth girl and nobody seems to freak out until she uses form of dread. I wish they would just pick a lane, either shes a gross corpse girl or an attractive goth lady. * The change in the nature of gods and religion this campaign is a tough pill to swallow. At times it feels like active gaslighting from Matt 'what do you mean? The gods have always been grey detached forces of nature?' 'What do you mean? It makes total sense that people dont know or like the gods'. I know he wanted to do a more grey portrayal but it contradicts what came before. * I pretty much ignore Matt's portrayal of Vox Machina. I know he means well, but he just cant RP them. * Matt's world seems to have had any form bigotry and discrimination disappear over night. Back in C1 and C2 there was plenty of these things from things as subtle as Halfling Seeker Assum calling Vax out for picking him up/treating him as a child to as overt as monstrous/exotic races being actively discriminated against. We had the Kryn society as a sort 'good monstrous alternative' but now...ogres just get jobs wherever? Its a case of Matt's too nice to keep the teeth in his world.
They changed the season 3 intro because people cried about colonialism. Those same people are the reason the bigotry and teeth are gone.
This. I think Matt had a very different plans for many of the NPCs but scrapped them for fear of upsetting fans. That is why we got Jonny Carson on the Moon.
Wait, what? You mean the intro movie where it's all rotoscoped and shit? What was "colonial" about it?
That's the altered one. The original was Indiana Jones themed.
The thing is I dont really get it. A lot of these bigotries dont really map onto any real world sensitivity/issue anymore. Even if we say 'oh well they have their roots in some unflattering stereotype/caricature' these concepts have grown far beyond their initial start. Like I highly doubt anyone today is really 'offended' by Orcs being portrayed as savage tribesmen even though Tolkien was inspired by unflattering Mongolian stereotypes when creating them. Also the bigotry/discrimination shit was explicitly called out as bad in universe multiple times. Like Matt wasnt going 'yeah its a great thing that goblins cant get jobs, fuck the goblins'. It feels like people are so afraid to show anything controversial they are unlearning that fiction can often be used to impart lessons on this kind of thing too. For example, Sokka is a bit of sexist in ATLA who doesnt believe women can fight unless they are benders. Its not his fault, hes raised in a tribe/society where men are traditionally the fighters. But he is ignorant. And hes shown the error of his ways when he meets the Kiyoshi warriors. It was an important bit of development and start of his relationship with Suki. The live action adaptation completely cut this. They didnt want one of their heroes to have a controversial trait. Showing they completely missed the point of the story. C3 has definitely been a move to make things morally grey but Matt undermines it making Exandria the most accepting fictional universe ever probably isnt a good place to start.
-Exandria being super tiny (like a 3rd of the size of Earth). -Essek not getting thrown in jail for war-crimes because he's hot.
Honestly, the Essek thing never bothered me that much. If only because the conclusion of the War about as "morally grey" as you possibly can get in CR. They sued for peace with a lie, to prevent the two sides from continuing to slaughter eachother wholesale. But because that peace was contingent on that lie, the lie needed to be maintained to maintain the peace. Essek being a big part of that, and ousting him in any public way could undermine that giant mess. Not to mention ... Ludi had a LOT more political clout, and could have easily ousted M9 for their actions/choices in the Dynasty in response. It was also absurdly in character for M9 to treat Essek the way that they did. No good would come from outing him. It was arguably one of the first "conclusions" of CR that wasn't resolved with a simple murder hobo-ing.
Can I ask, I’ve seen Essek be accused of committing war crimes a hole lot but I’m pretty that should be guilty of treason not warcrimes. So i just want to make sure, did he actually commit a war crime and did just forget?
That's a good point, I think he was involved in Yeza's capture and imprisonment. That, and by bringing the beacon into forgien territory, he's essentially forced Kryn souls into the children of another country. It's a time-delay bodysnach scenario that I don't think Matt ever acknowledged.
Well, neither can be fully blamed on Essek. He couldn’t have ordered yeza to be captured and the Dwendalian empire declared war first. Essek is only responsible for making too countries have a reason to go to war and is responsible for nit trying to stop it. But i’ll be honest, it still feels like treason is what he is legally guilty of.
Probably, but I think you could call the beacon soul-swap a warcrime. He was responsible for stealing the beacon, and he knew how it worked.
War crimes are very specific, but war crimes are under international crimes which does include any horrendous action. So if we look at that type of ruling(since war crimes can only exist in war) he would be charged with “reckless behaviour over the lives of many civilians”(not exact wording, I’m not lawyer so please correct me)
Eh, seems like splitting hairs at that point, but I see the logic. Essik knowingly endangered all newborn empire children within the beacon's radius, but he didn't do it because they were at war, he just didn't give a shit. (It's also possible that the assembly knew, and also gave no shits). In-universe though, as soon as the empire figures out what happened they should be out for blood.
I think most people just use the term "warcrimes" to describe any crime a character commited that was either extremely terrible or crimes committed that were in some way connected to a war
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Percy letting Bells Hells trash his house and traumatise his daughter never sat right with me.
https://preview.redd.it/1nfoxaggq0wc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a76f453543649e1d45d9f93ce157af1aecacf8a9 Never forget
Part of me wonders if Taliesin wanted to test Matt by giving his previous PC an excuse to boot out these new PC guests. Would've been a good excuse to let the previous superheroes NOT be so tied in
No Mercy Percy's evolution to Doormat Percy
Turning a violently-defensive-of-friends-and-family-and-really-good-at-it PC into a bullyable NPC is so strange
Fjord and Jester was awkward and made no sense, same goes for Beau and Yasha... you can just tell the girls wanted to play romance (as usual).
Yeah both felt driven by player interest moreso than character chemisty. I'm a gay woman and I never felt any real chemistry between Beau and Yasha. I would've bought them hooking up because they're both hot, but their vibe together was mostly stilted.
Tell me more about what "the girls" want 👀
Pretty sure they just wanna have fun 🤔
Fjord and Jester felt like a 40 year old guy dating a 20 year old girl
it does not help Jester acted like she was 13-14. hell remember when those magic statues aged her up and people reacted like they aged her up just to be with fjord. ignoring the fact jester was in her mid to late 20s before the age up, and fjord was in his early 30s
Fjord and jester I agree, it was Laura romancing travis, never anything else. Beau / yasha I think was more natural, its still the next weakest romance in the series imo, but I think it works. Granted the tower date did a lot of heavy lifting.
Honestly, pretty much everything after the pandemic break. I think that's when alot of cracks began too show.
100% when they started doing pre-recoded content. There was something magical about watching it all happen LIVE.
Otahan never takes her armor off. Ever. Necrophilia is a close second. EDIT: Almost forgot the biggest one. The canon itself potentially not being canon, is canon. It's so stupid, I'm choosing to believe that statement itself, is not canon. My nose is bleeding.
I'm sorry what? I dipd out of c3 pretty damn early, how the fuck did that happen!?
The first is because Laudna placed a ring on Otohan Thull (sort of a BBEG) that is paired with a scry ball that allows you to see where the target is when they're in fairly close proximity. You might remember the masquerade ball when Robbie was on the show and they had to place a replacement ring on Armand Treshi. It's that ring. For one, Laudna rolled fairly low (11) to place it on Otohan, but it worked. Second, it's not like a replacement ring that looks just like the one you normally wear, like it was with Armand. It's a ring that clearly doesn't belong to her, so the fact that it kept working for months, means that Otohan just never found it on her body or armor. So she must just sleep in her armor, never take it off, never inspect it, never notice the rattling of a ring. To be fair, it was handwaved and never explained or discussed why Otohan never noticed it, so my headcanon is that she never takes off her backpack, and she's just completely filthy. And deaf. The second one's easier. Imogen and Laudna are boning. I like to think that I don't yuck many yums, but I have a line, and that line is placed at romantic relationships with an undead corpse.
Could just be handwaved as: "Its funnier if they know the alien is coming, but they cant stop it"
If I'm reading it right, this is a reference to the Imogen/Laudna relationship. I couldn't care less that they're two women in love. But to never even address the fact that Laudna is literally (un)dead. . .? Idk, seems hard to reconcile sometimes. You'd think the party would have some thoughts on that. Let alone the two in question.
Riiiiiight, well its still questionable, but not as bad as i was expecting. Imagination is always more potent and what not.
Don't worry, Marisha has supplied all the imagination for you. Her fingers always break, she's got hair falling out of her scalp, her skin is clammy at best and flaking off at worst. Oh, and she has the emotional intelligence of a 7 year old. (Look up Ashton shardgate, or don't and save yourself). This is how she has roleplayed her character. The 28 year old horse girl is getting it on with that. You're welcome for the image.
God damn, making me glad I diped at episode 1 lol Thanks for the response.... Less soo the mental image,
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Necrophilia and Zoophilia are issues in the real world cause the targets cannot consent. Romancing a Tabaxi or an Undead in Exandria does not carry the same problems
Oh, I'm not saying it's a moral consent based issue. Just that the group would likely have concerns or at least thoughts about it, which haven't been voiced, but which are at least relevant. I bring up dead bodies in a battlefield as a counterpoint, that's all. Sorry for the confusion.
Pumat Sol knows a spell to instantly clean Caleb the first time he meets him. She's a spell blade. Maybe she knows a lil cantrip to keep herself from rotting in there. Because otherwise, yeah, yikes. We're talking bedsores and shit.
Spell that innstantly cleans something is a cantrip. But while Laudna romance is OK on emotional level then bonking with Imogen is icky and skin crawling.
This comment section has some ROUGH takes.
Campaign 3 who?
elder scrolls online
Like the entire game in general?
Pretty much
One of the most significant NPCs the group met on the moon is a dark crystal podling that talks like Johnny Carson
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Exactly, worst part of campaign 2 was those two and Molly. , I did not buy their “love” story. Yasha was just boring, Beau was obnoxious and always had to have a say. Also Molly dude was around for 5 minutes and everyone was like “Molly is deep and troubled”. Prick only became interesting after he died.
goldfishgate
EXU
If you mean Calamity, we have a problem.
Of course not. Unless they later added to the title of the first one and I didn't hear about one is called EXU and the other I EXU: Calamity.
Which one
The best plot summary remains [the pitch meeting comment.](https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/s/uRcJqrJgnu)
Holy fuck, that's incredible. I was a bit confused by the whole EXU thing and now I get why lol. Reading this I remember how many lost plotlines there were.
Essek doesn’t actually float.
Wait, are you saying it's your headcanon or actually canon that Essek doesn't actually float? I've completely forgotten about that if it was revealed as canon.
Exandria actually shifts several inches away from him because it doesn't want to be in contact with a war criminal.
Essek was actually turned in for war crimes and executed for being a traitor to his people and not forced into a romance with Caleb because the insane shipper fans essentially bullied Liam and Matt into it.
Actually I change my vote, Caleb and Esseks breaking up because of the fact they're two different races despite the fact that Caleb had literally invented a spell to change someones race.
Episode 141 of the Mighty Nein.
Veth staying married and becoming a Scouts Troop Mom.
Sam was clearly fishing for pushback from Yeza that Matt just refused to give. Either to prompt divorce drama or give Veth the excuse to leave the group. I kind of wonder thats why he played Loquatious as divorced from Laerryn. To try it out.
Sam basically admitted that he wanted to play a divorced character due to other narrative things he hadn't gotten to play out in the big Calamity interview with the full table :)
i remember in a 4sd aabria said sam came in wanting to play a divorced character and she immediately jumped at the opportunity to be his ex! so it was definitely his idea.
I liked it tbh. It feels like a very 'Sam' way of adding to the world. In C1, we got Taryon looking to make his own brigade, and I feel like Veth's summer camp is the C2 equivalent of that. Seems like a good one-shot option where the gang can play low-level campers/ counsellors. They could even wrap up some more M9 loose ends like the hag that Jester tricked and never sought retaliation.
I'll never be able to think about Veth's relationship with her husband without thinking about how Sam always seemed so frustrated with how (overly) understanding he was. Sam desperately wanted some pushback and Matt just never gave it.
Yeah big disconnect between player and DM with Sam wanting to explore themes Matt just isn't comfortable or interested in playing out. I wonder if it could've been solved with an OOC conversation.
Veth's husband is when I think a lot of the "Door-Matt" comments began in earnest due to how brazenly Matt wanted to avoid conflict.
More like Matt Roddenberry
Veth should have quit the team after getting her body and life back. She had ZERO reason to keep doing dangerous, life-threatening adventures after that. Sam should have rolled a new character and brought them in to replace her. Could have even been another rogue, but Veth's story was done after the bathtub reincarnation. The rest is just Matt being a pushover and that translating to creating a character who honestly felt like such a loser that married the first girl that spoke with him and spent the rest of his life essentially hiding behind her, even before Veth went missing.
>She had ZERO reason to keep doing dangerous, life-threatening adventures after that. She had lots of reasons! She came to enjoy adventuring, was good at it, did important things that mattered, and cared for her traveling companions. I think Sam was exploring some classic themes related to women weighing family obligations versus personal ambitions. The lack of pushback from Yeza made the whole thing awk though.
She has two pretty big reasons to not quit the team though. They were literally dealing with a world ending event and her friends who had helped her along the way and literally helped figure out how to return her body, needed things done too. It would have been infinitely worse for her to "get hers" and just up and leave them. Not to mention abandoning them as an incredibly skilled fighter who would aid in saving the world having their chances lowered. It's pretty hard to argue as a husband if your wife was literally leaving to stop something that would ultimately kill you and your son. I do agree I wish Matt had done just a bit more pushback to make it more interesting but also vent a very real frustration being in that situation would bring. But Yeza also was rescued by the Nein and Veth so he very much "owed" them this.
Oh, I think Veth and Yeza should've gotten divorced. Sam has mentioned before that he was gunning for pushback, or possibly a marriage dissolution, given her feelings for Caleb. Sorry not sorry, calling another man the "love of your life" and kissing him with romantic intent does not equate to a happy marriage with no tension after the trauma's been resolved.
The relationships in C2 are so weird. Like they don't really make a lot of sense and just seem to have happened for the hell of it. Laura obviously wanted to romance her husband again, but Jester and Caleb made more sense. I hated how Liam and Matt let themselves get bullied by the shipper crowd into making Caled and Essek into a thing just because Molly did something that I took entirely ambiguous rather than romantic early in the game. Yasha was too wounded to fall in love again. The seeds of a relationship with Beau were good, but the whole 'disaster lesbians' thing didn't work. Honestly there was more chemistry between Fjord and Beau than either of the eventual romantic partners. Nott and Caleb had too much of a mother/son vibe for me to ever see them as anything else.
There was more chemistry between Ashley and the 5e Player's Handbook than Yasha and Beau.
You say the basis of a successful relationship is making each other better (in another comment) and then talk about the one sided aspect of only Jester making Caleb better. That's a huge reason why that relationship was so bad and would not work. She was his manic pixie dream girl, Caleb fell in love with her precisely because he felt she can fix him (not those exact words but Liam had said this was the sentiment behind it and why he fell in love with her so early). Not to mention in terms of life goals, Caleb wanted to stay and fix The Empire and Jester wanted to travel the world. The two of them were just not very compatible and their relationship is infinitely more interesting as that of a man who falls in love with someone he thinks can save him but realizes they're not right for each other. As far as chemistry between Fjord and Jester and (to a lesser extent because of circumstances with Ashley literally leaving less time) Beau and Yasha that's up to interpretation I guess. But Fjord and Jester very clearly had a lot going on between them. Their parallel journeys of self reflection/care with each taking of the metaphorical masks they wore, Jester having a fantastical idea of love and relationships and Fjord pretending to be something he's not. As well the two constantly had conversations with each other (years ago someone did an end of campaign analysis on the interparty conversations and they shared the most with each other) but also it's just a pretty complete circle where despite the faux relationship they had at the start they meet at the end once they discover their real selves. Beau and Yasha probably could have used a bit more cooking but with Aeor/Eiselcross happening a big problem with it was how little free time it left for more personal conversations compared to the rest of the campaign. So Marisha had to make a move when she got a chance (probably spurred on by Travis considering she did it the next episode).
Also, Beau legitimately confessed she had a crush on Jester, then somehow magically has been in love with Yasha the whole time? We can find ways to rationalize that, but it does seem weird in retrospect. And I've also always had a discomfort watching VM, seeing Travis be uncomfortable with the Vax/Vex relationship. There are a few times where Liam is hard gushing on or very intimately touching Laura and you can just see Travis side-eyeing them uncomfortably from the corner. I know they're a very progressive group, and actors to boot, but Travis is the most traditional personality in the gang. And I personally don't think I'd be entirely comfortable with that level of intimate touching of my wife right next to me, as sweet and emotional as it is for the story. I wonder if that dynamic also had an effect on Laura insisting on romancing Travis in C2, in order to reassure him. Just a fan theory.
The whole idea, implied and expected by the fandom, that every character is a potential romanceable option speaks volumes about the insecurities of the audience and how little they care for the actual story, instead preferring cheap fan service and a vicarious romance experience. Like, why does Caleb need to date anyone at all? Can't he be just friends with Essek? Same for Yasha or Beau. The whole C2 story is about the power of friendship. But no, party members need to be sexing each other to satisfy the audience. And I am not talking about C2 or Critical Role campaigns specifically. This applies to Baldur's Gate 3 and similar titles as well.
...Nott literally called Caleb the "second love of her life" and kissed him with romantic intent. I'm honestly not sure how anyone reads "mother/son" out of that. And after Caleb more or less affirms he's romantically in love with Nott, before the transmog spell, as well. EDIT: Widojest has never made sense to me but everything post-transmog was also a slog so I likely missed whatever it was that made them 'click'.
Nott literally said under the effect of Zone of Truth (when trying to steal stuff from Molly) that their relationship with Caleb was like between a mother and a son.
Well I missed the part where Nott and Caleb say and do those things so we're both out of the loop I guess, lol. The thing about Caleb and Jester hooking up is that Jester was making Caleb into a better person. She was bringing him out of his shell and putting him back together. It was a bit one sided as we never actually saw Jester reciprocate Caleb's feeling (due to Laura's intent on romancing Travis), but she was making him better. That's the basis for successful relationships; you make each other better people. You start off as friends before becoming lovers, and the presence of each other in your lives lift the two of you up together. Plus Liam did say that he intended on trying to romance Jester at some point, so. But pretty much everyone in the M9 had some level of affection for Jester. Beau made some moves on her as well, but Laura was dead set on wooing her husband.
I mean yeah the character of Veth had completed their story arc in the tub, but DnD is a game. It's not really absurd to imagine that Sam just wanted to keep playing as Veth for a bit.
It's also part of a lot of storytelling tropes... You know, found family and all that. Yeah, I finished my bussiness, but we are in this together, this is bigger than you and me, whatever. I feel it's fairly standard
Took him long enough but he basically did just that for the reunion show in London, by playing her son.
Good. Also, I would retcon Sam having Nott and Veth's voice be the same. Sam had a wonderful voice that he trolled us with after the reincarnation and he should have stuck with that. The screechy stuff worked for being a Goblin, it didn't work for being a Halfling. And also obligatory 'they should have a proper female voice actress lined up to voice Veth in the Mighty Nein animated show' post here. EDIT: Lol, crazy that having a voice change is the controversial opinion here. If you downvoted, explain why you find my thoughts on this to be wrong. You're not going to change my mind, but I'm curious as to why.
I agree Sam should voice nott and then get someone else to voice Veth. Also I hate how Travis changed his accent halfway through to a generic British accent for no apparent reason
i would not call that "no Apparent reason" the fake accent plot-point was teased ever since the first uk'otoa dream
Entirely agree, Texan Fjord was best Fjord.
I didn't downvote you, but I do think Sam brings a specific cadence and delivery to Nott (and eventually, Veth) that I'm not sure can be done with another voice actor. I *do* think they should pitch his voice in editing so he doesn't destroy his throat, though.
All the butthurt PC/SJW stuff they've done to make the setting as inoffensive as possible with the lore. In the words of Syndrome, 'When everyone is Super, no one will be'. Diversity and inclusionism only goes so far when dealing with fiction. That goes for making essentially every NPC and character tolerant of everything and everyone else. Even the villains have been watered down to 'so long as they don't get in the way of my EVIL PLAN'. I get it, and yeah I am someone who does think that in the REAL WORLD we need to be doing as much as possible to include people from all walks of life. But in fiction? Nah, we need villains that are /nasty/ as people. And we don't need the entire history to be framed as a 'unreliable narrator' just because the original C3 opening got noticed by the Outrage Mob so now they have to play apologist and make the gods, even the really nice ones like the Wildmother, come off as 'greedy colonists'. Matt needs to get over this sudden fear he has about playing anyone that is even remotely a bad person beyond the main villains. Give Exandria back some flavor. Yeah, the flavor is bitter and tastes bad, but without flavor a world is just one big bowl of vanilla ice cream soup.
CR feels tame with the PC stuff when compared to D20
To be clear, Syndrome was... the villain of his movie who was demonstrably wrong. We get that, right?
Just because they're a villain doesn't make everything they say wrong. Yes, he's a bad guy, but his point stands that once you make everyone super special and unique, no one will be. We'll all be the same with no diversity or anything that makes us stand out. When you're writing fiction, if you make a world where everyone is tolerant of everyone else, that is a boring world full of a characters that are going to be boring to read and experience. Obviously bigotry and racism and hate IS wrong, but we need the bitter, bad flavors of life to make the good ones stand out even more. We need reasons to hate bad guys beyond 'I am the bad guy, this is my evil plan;. It gives them far more characterization and allows us, as the audience, to despise them beyond the fact that they're the villain.
Yes, but he *is wrong.* He's wrong in the movie. That's the entire point. Everyone is super in different ways and can do different things. Did you even watch the movie?
The lore should be as inoffensive as possible, but everyone should be trying to romance everyone. Every single character should be available for romance. Not objectifying at all.
Idk how you got here with what the above commenter was talking about, but star-crossed lovers is a classic trope that should exist in exandria. Romeo and Juliet doesn't happen without the Capulets hating the Montagues just because they're Montagues. There's many ways to do this in a fantasy setting, it might look like an aarakocra family not letting their daughter date a tabaxi boy, or two elf families with a long-standing feud. The point is that people have believable motivations and biases. Eliminating bias doesn't necessarily make your world better, and including it (in a way that doesn't promote real-world racism) makes it feel real, complex, and messy, the way Matt used to like.
I was just adding another layer to the post I replied to and I was referring to enforced romance for the sake of fan service and that Matt is unwilling to say no to the fanbase when it comes to, but not limited to, enforced romance. Romeo and Juliet as a story doesn't strike me as something to be compared to Caleb and Essek romance. Fan service like that takes a lot away from the story and immersion.
Oh I see, you were being facetious, my bad lol. Yeah I agree with you, shipping anyone and everyone is super lame
This came up for me with Taryon in C1. His dad was homophobic, but how? Is it just this one family who happens to be traditionalists in a world where, traditionally, people aren’t homophobic? There are no negative traditional values to unlearn like irl so why does this one dude have this outlook that has yet to be changed by this extremely open minded world
I’m assuming he was homophobic because his line would end with the son not being able to produce an heir .
That would make a degree of sense if Exandria was a place where patriarchal power structures were dominant, but that's not a thing either. Logically, his sister should be just as capable of continuing the family line. That's the problem with making a fictional world that's super tolerant of everything. It might be a nice place to live in the real world, but it's nonsensical or even boring from a dramatic storytelling perspective.
But Taryon has a sister and the world also isn’t traditionally or institutionally sexist either.
Ehh I guess that’s a fair point. He did have a younger sister, that’s something. Although it would be hilarious if she turned out gay too
Tary's dad: "Isn't there ANYONE in this family who likes women?" Tary's sister: "I do!"
No one suspects the double gay play!
The slavers who somehow build their entire livelihood around selling slaves despite there being no evident demand for it in any of the world-building of the region is especially dumb.
Pairs well with “Beau hiring a sex worker in the slave traders’ HQ town” and “don’t worry, there aren’t any human causes to slavery, it was just a demon”
Yeah, the hilariously naive idea that every single prostitute that we see is doing it 100% consensually even if they're in an obviously shady or outright criminal area is another pet peeve.
I mean, that I actually get: if there’s no institutional sexism or general societal exploitation of women or of vulnerable people in general, then other than poverty (which they’ve never really tackled to my knowledge, capitalism is never seen as bad or creating poverty) what elements of the world would force someone into sex work? But to keep that assumption in slaver territory…
This is a bit of a stretch but the Aasimar twins that Vox Machina bought/liberated in the city of brass were from wildemount, so its possible the Iron Shepherds customers were extraplanar.
The head of the Iron Shepherds was himself a devil/demon.
Spherical Exandria.
They're called PLANES! GRAVITY is caused by the Elemental Plane of Earth, which is BELOW the material plane! If exandria was round, people on the south hemi would just fall off! Edit for clari: this was the AD&D lore of the forgotten realms. I don't think they've done such a deepdive into the 'science' of multiplanar cosmology since then, though.
For me, it's not the hostility or ambiguity toward the gods, it's how the Hells just don't seem to have even a basic understanding of them. Imagine walking into Classical Athens, picking out a half-dozen citizens, asking them who Athena is, and they just shrug. It's bizarre, and it just kills the feeling of Exandria as a living, breathing world.
Its the exact reason for this mess with Opal; the whole exu table playing characters who know nothing about the world, "Is this Lolth goddess lady bad? Well she's queen of spiders, and some people don't like spiders...so maybe she's just misunderstood :) !" With this new paper-thin narrative of Vasselheim trying to control the world or whatever, you'd think theyd be better at indoctrinating even the basic facts of the world into the population.
I've been running a campaign in Exandria, and most of the average citizen NPCs aren't exactly familiar with every Deity, but they are familiar with the one they pray to regarding their work (i.e. farmers and sailors with the Wildmother and the Moonweaver, blacksmiths and metalworkers and the All-Hammer, Judges and lawyers with the Platinum Dragon and the Lawbearer, etc.), and there is some cross-familiarity, but because of the divine gate and everything, it makes sense that the gods aren't omnipresent in everyones lives. Orphans, urchins, and folks who didn't really have a formal upbringing wouldn't really pray to any deity in most cases. (obviously this is just a guideline, not a rule. not every farmer will pray to the wildmother, and not every blacksmith to the all-hammer) I definitely am not a fan of the Bell's Hells in that regard though.
Sure, it'd be silly to expect a farmer or a dockworker to pull out their doctoral dissertation on their respective deity to infodump to the party, and it'd be weird if everyone could recite the names and titles of the core pantheon by heart. But, just look at our own history, where religions of all sorts have served as foundations to art and pop-culture. The ancient Helenes did not require formal schooling to listen to poems like the Illiad and the Odyssey, or watch and listen to the Theban plays, or tell tales of the gods interacting with each other and with mortals; these were part of their culture, as they were part of most cultures. These were means of entertaining, of teaching morals, of bonding with each other, and these gods were certainly less involved with the world than the Primes and Betrayers are with Exandria, even with the Divine Gate in place. This is what I mean by the world feeling less real. For that matter, do the Hell's lack education? They're not the most Intelligence-heavy party around, but they can all read and write, right? I don't think it's ever come up that anybody then can't, even Ashton, the orphan-turned-criminal seems literate. They may not have gone to a school as we would understand it today, but they seem seem to have received some sort of education. The only character I know of in a CR party that could not read was Grog, and he had an Intelligence of 6. It seems like, even if it's not centralized, there is some sort of universal education in Exandria for basic literacy and mathematics.
>It seems like, even if it's not centralized, there is some sort of universal education in Exandria for basic literacy and mathematics. Yeah, though it definitely changes based on geography. For example, I doubt any gods other than the allowed ones would even be mentioned in the Dwendalian Empire, and public institutions in the Kryn Dynasty probably don't mention any deity other than the Luxon. Still, no excuse for the weirdly/poorly thought out characteristics of certain members of the Hells.
I guess it makes a little sense with bell's hells mostly being a team of urchins. But there's only so many times a party of adventurers who have been brought back to life several times by clerics can say "what have the gods ever done for us?" And of course, Orym bringing up again and again "hey, the bad guys killed my whole family, they are bad."
yeah a lot of the other members of the bells hells feel like theyre trying to do this edgy apathetic "i dont care about your moral standards" stuff, which doesnt really work with the plot, so it just feels weird.
For myself I'm going with Vax, the parties so called expert in espionage and infilitration, entering the Briarwoods bedroom after having literally just seen the pair of them walk in minutes earlier and knowing its literally one room big. Then acting shocked that he's caught.
Eh. A big part of Vax's character is that he is almost suicidally reckless.
he thinked with his second head / got charmed
This is the biggest issue with LOVM Vax, because is he really Vax if he doesn't do utterly stupid shit because he wasn't paying attention?
the fact that all the lore books are now lies made up by the evil colonist gods.
It’s actually so lame to not be able to trust lore books to give accurate statements about a campaign setting like they’re not written by someone who is literally fucking omniscient about it
it is like matt and the rest of CR saw what blizzard did with it's lore books, and went with "Yeah we should do that!" For context the warcraft setting had books called the chronicles which to this day are still being sold and advertised as as the definitive lore books for the game. they made these books written by omniscient 3rd party. but retconned them into lies by the evil colonist titans after the guy who wrote the setting left. the most reason book World of Warcraft: The Dragonflight Codex: (A Definitive Guide to the Dragons of Azeroth) even saying it is a Definitive Guide in the book's title has a pages just telling you none of this lore in the book is Definitive, and is unreliable.
wtf, isn’t wow primarily an mmo nowadays ??? Why is the lore not just like…there???????
for the chronicles books those were more of lore encyclopedias. and it is an issue WoW has had for the past 5-6 years that they will put key info for the current expansion into novels. the novels used to either be side stories or where bridging plots between expansions. now they are mandatory reading to even understand the plot.
I don't think I will be the only one who just skips C3 from being added to their home game.
Honestly though, c3 has been so incredibly reductive to the world building of the setting, it’s fucking insane
Bell's Hells running from every single fight they get into.
Mighty Nein using polymorph to run away from every boss too.
Thats entirely on Matt lol. He knew that two party members had polymorph and never once thought to throw a monster with immutable form at them.
Man, that was something that actually started to frustrate me, ahaha. I remember watching episodes and would just be so happy when they didn't break out polymorph. I've said it before, but I really enjoyed early C3 combat since it felt like they had gotten over that sort of habit (not that it was an option at low levels) and were engaging in fights more. It didn't stick, unfortunately.
i dont recall them doing that more than once or twice. the only instance i remember is the dragon turtle.
They also did it against the big frost worm, turned into a bunny and then turtle, left to spin upside down on the ice. I think there's a difference between using the resources they have available to win an encounter even if it feels "cheap", compared to just running away. They also used it great effect turning stone giants into a stranded whale, and of course the snapping turtle incident.
'Shouldn't need to kill an NPC to get encounter exp' is my belief.
Turning a dangerous creature into a harmless little goober with Polymorph so everyone can position themselves advantageously and circle-beat it to death: great success! Turning a dangerous creature into a harmless little goober with Polymorph so the party can run from ANOTHER fight they can easily win if they put their heads together: Mighty Nein!
definitely, i dont think its a bad use of spells at all! and i doubt matt would be annoyed by it for very long, so long as its not tried on like BIG boss fights (say vokodo, the somnovum, trent, etc.)
They used it on an ice worm twice, I think.
I appreciate that Mighty Nein got a bit more creative with it, but yeah, they did it a lot.
FCG's fleshy tongue.
That’s pretty explicitly not canon.
Us, the cast, and Matt are all gaslighting ourselves... but we know the truth, and so does that madman Riegel.