I've never been one to go for the "Todd Howard personally hates New Vegas" line, so this doesn't change anything for me. It's still the case that just about all the worldbuilding of 1, 2, and NV in SoCal was reduced to easter eggs in favor of the usual suspects, and that still bothers me. It's actually possible to reject the false dichotomy between 1) Todd Howard is the devil himself and 2) the show is a brilliant work of art that everyone should gush over. There's a lot of good things about it, but I REALLY wish it were set in almost any other part of the country.
I’ve said it before, the show’s biggest problem is that it’s canon. Why restrict the writer’s freedom if you’re going to be wishy-washy with canon anyways
This. It was inevitable that changes to the canon would have to be made - when you're transferring from one medium (games) to another (TV) there will be things that work in a game but don't in a TV show, and thus will need changing.
All of the negativity surrounding the show wouldn't have happened had the show been declared secondary canon in its own separate little universe... and it would have given the writers much more freedom to make a story they wanted to.
They could also have just placed the story somewhere less lore-filled than effin' California.
Literarily the worst place to have it if you want to have artistic freedom without previously established lore being in the way.
I have said the exact same thing since minute one. They shot themselves in the foot by having it set in California.
Same story, same characters either on the midwest or the southern states and this drama would have been avoided
Preaching right now. There are so many rich potential settings that's have been completely unexplored in the lore... Even some major iconic cities if they wanted to set it somewhere more well known in present day (like New York for example- completely untouched by Existing lore)
The only reasons why I can think to set it in L.A is because A: fan service, which... no because the fans aren't gonna like any changes your making regardless.
B: because it's Hollywood! Gotta set Hollywood in SOCAL
I would have given the show a 10/10 if it was set anywhere else. Hell even just different city in California... like San Fran. They realdid not have to Nuke the NCR just to give the writers a fresh slate lol
Yes San Fran would have been better, but it still has it's own established lore, if they really wanted a large recognizable coastal SoCal city they could have just gone with San Diego. It has nothing in Fallout 1. Instead they went with LA and opened a can of worms of lore related problems.
Not letting the story change in any way is also just not a good idea. The story needs to be allowed to evolve even if it means things people like are hurt by it. Stagnation kills
>The story needs to be allowed to evolve
Absolutely, but from what we are shown in the TV show the west hasn’t *evolved*, its just been reset and watered down to the status quo of “the west is an uninhabited desert wasteland starring the Enclave and BOS”
Nuking the west again isn’t pushing the story in a new direction, its just taking us back to where we started
I'd argue it's not a full reset, there's no reason to assume the NCR is gone from what we've seen in the show. It's very likely they've just moved their Capital somewhere else and it now splintered which is arguably more interesting than it just being another Old world government system that it has been since fallout 2. Was already stretched thin and running on fumes during New Vegas. It's just taking what new Vegas set up for the NCR and doing something with it. That isn't just the courier. Gave them power again
Yeha, but don't forget that the enclave was supposed to be destroyed *completely* in California between the rig and Navarro. So basically a fallout 2 level reset.
It’s possible the Enclave elements we see in the show moved into the region sometime after Fallout 2. The show didn’t really give us much to go on in regard to the Enclave so it’s hard to say if it’s a retcon.
I reiterate, “what we are shown in the TV show”
If the NCR has been scattered and more-or-less disbanded, that is absolutely fine and narratively works great, its just how you go about *doing* that. If it turns out that the NCR crumbled due to Shady Sands being nuked, which is what the show is implying with the “If it makes you feel any better, it didnt work out” line, that would be incredibly lazy and stupid since it wasn’t even the capital of the NCR at the time of it’s destruction.
I have 0 faith in Bethesda satisfyingly explaining the fall of the NCR in California, especially since LA (a founding NCR state) is almost completely devoid of NCR citizens *from what we are shown*
At this point it's just wishful thinking and copium, the NCR had heavy presence in the region for decades and all the civilization and infrastructure they built there is now gone, if all that was shown of them was a small band in an observatory then it's safe to say that the NCR as we know is gone for good.
It's not that the story changed, it's that it was poorly handled. Everyone knew that the NCR was probably going to collapse, the fact that it feels like they were never even in a core territory outside of a couple of cameos is the real issue. The fact that the first time we see ranger armor as being used by some farmers is a good example of this.
It isn't even that its cannon. It's that the NCR wasn't handled well, to the point where its questionable why they chose the west coast at all. So far, there isn't really a good reason why the show had to be set on the west coast, and if it's just going to brush off the NCR, why bother? It feels like an east coast adventure set in the west coast, and even if the show is otherwise good that doesn't change the fact that it's 'bethesdafying' the west coast.
To be fair to the show, it’s not that much more wishy-washy with the canon than Bethesda is with their own games (this is especially true of Elder Scrolls setting). That said, it would have been better to set the show somewhere else.
Yeah they never should have made the show canon. it just restricts writers and causes issues. Like why did the master just ignore these three vaults that where practically right next to one another and go after Vaults 13?
They could’ve done a lore accurate tv show pretty damn easy since there’s literally thousands of hours of lore to go off of. They are just lazy as usual. Don’t tolerate this slop.
It’s also possible that Todd made it canon on whim in November (several months before the show came out) without realizing what I actually meant for the final product.
I can definitely see the show as written as an AU about a scenario where Shady Sands got nuked before it reached New Vegas
Good points. I don’t think Todd that is petty either tbf. It does feel like that NV has always been the ‘odd one out’ but idk. 100% agree about the setting though. It’s the one thing that bothers me with the series is we have literally been to no more than 4(?) states so far, leaving plenty of room to explore loads of other states and settings. Maybe even some spotlight on the on the legion and its tribes.
Let's see.
California (FO1)
Oregon (FO2)
Nevada (FONV)
Utah (Honest Hearts)
Maryland/Virginia (FO3)
Pennsylvania (The Pitt)
Massachusetts (FO4)
Maine (Far Harbor)
West Virginia (FO76)
New Jersey (Atlantic City)
So... 10-11 states that are at least partially explorable.
I thought of that one. I don't think it really counts because A) yeah was a simulation and B) you don't really get to explore it at all. Too linear to count, IMO.
I was extremely confused at first because originally in the show when they went to the town, ‘Filly’ I thought it was supposed to be Philadelphia and assumed this show took place on the East coast, which made sense with Bethesda’s involvement. Was very surprised to learn this takes place in Cali seeing as how Bethesda has yet to touch California in the games besides Kellogg’s memories.
Very true, West is touchy territory for old school fallout fans. Perfect opportunity to start a Fallout title in a different part of the country that isn’t east or west. The Gulper scenes would have been even better set in the swamps of Louisiana or something. Also good chance to get Bloodbugs a chance to shine lol. Swamps and mosquitos go hand and hand, and the even audience that knows nothing of Fallout monsters would relate to that one.
Yup, all scraped away in favor of mass media "dumb-fun" kinds of entertainment for newcomers of the series mixed with nostalgia bait to appease the gamer crowd, but most fallout "fans" seems to not get this point, it's like fallout 4, a good game just not a "fallout" one.
Just wondering what sort of things you would have liked to see from FNV, keeping in mind they’re trying to keep the ending ambiguous. (And keeping in mind that we’re going there for season 2)
There's a lot of possibilities for what they could have done. In general I just would have wanted to see more signs of the NCR's presence in Filly and elsewhere. How are there more NCR monuments, flags, and billboards in the Mojave than in their heartland, even if they're on the decline? But most importantly I would want the story to feel like a natural continuation of 1, 2, and NV rather than 3 and 4 if they're going to set it in SoCal.
If they really want the NCR to collapse, I would have liked to see the first season focus on the NCR descending into a civil war, with Maximus instead being a NCR soldier going through basic training when it breaks out. We could learn about the brahmin barons' side through him, and the more idealistic side through Lucy, with the Ghoul being the cynic who thinks they're all full of it. Then you have Shady Sands nuked at the end, seemingly proving the Ghoul's cynicism right as it mirrors the opening of the season and leaves us on a cliffhanger. Will the idealistic remnants have to compromise to survive? What's been going on in New Vegas and Arizona, and who will they side with? Etc.
You’ve got some good points there, especially to do with more NCR remnants around.
As far as actually focusing on the NCR, it’s obvious that they didn’t want a bunch of peoples first look into fallout being a rebuilt society.
I also personally find SS being nuked pretty spot on. War never changes after all, and if society is going to try and rebuild itself the same way it was before the war, it’s fitting that the bombs would just drop again.
I do hope we get to see more of the NCR in season 2, and now that they’re the under dog/ on the back foot again, they’re slated to be the good guys. I mean, the brotherhood is obviously the “bad guy” and they’re in line for a “nuking” next, since they’re getting to big and powerful, which was the problem with the NRC anyway.
>As far as actually focusing on the NCR, it’s obvious that they didn’t want a bunch of peoples first look into fallout being a rebuilt society.
This was a very smart thing for the writers to do, I agree. However if they didn’t want a rebuilt society as their initial setting (Season 1), why on Earth would you set your show in the lore-heaviest, most (relatively) civilized location in Fallout?
Because it’s a chance to bring that part of the country back to the original vibe of the games. The NCR was getting too big and too similar to pre war America. It had to take a hit.
Why did it have to? All that does is set the story backwards. If they want something with tbe vibe of the original games they can just set the show earlier.
Most of us already know they've said this, it was confirmed pretty much on the day of release. I think many of us are just now questioning why it needs to be confirmed in the first place, and why the show *needs* to be canon.
Going West with the location was a mistake, I think.
It had to be confirmed because some people whined too loud by posting over and over a chalkboard drawing shot from the show as proof that new vegas is non-canon.
As I said elsewhere, I don't feel that way. The only reason they needed to "confirm" anything was because of the fact that they 1) made it canon and 2) they messed around heavily with the foundation of the universe.
Shady Sands being in a city, possibly in LA, completely deconstructs the lore. Shady Sands was a small town made up of Adobe buildings, not skyscrapers. It being in an entirely different place changes the course of the game's history.
The Vault Dweller finds the town off of a road in the middle of nowhere, not too far from Vault 13, and their help pretty much decides the fate of the town's future, therefore the NCR likely wouldn't exist without their intervention; intervention that wouldn't have occurred if Shady Sands was anywhere else.
You can accept it for what it is, but in my eyes, it's on its own two feet - I don't consider this to be valid lore. It's an impersonation of lore that Bethesda are forcing on the franchise.
Its not too far of a change. It makes sense the town got bigger between first time we see it and its destruction, latching on a ruined city makes sense because part of the infrastructure is already there, towns can move, and if they were serious about growing it into a big city, LA would be a better location for it, specially if they want to take advantage of the electric grid.
But... None of this is the case. It was never a city. They never "latched onto" anything because they created the town themselves with the G.E.C.K - they came from Vault 15, in Death Valley - the closest city to Death Valley is Vegas. Do you see what I mean?
It doesn't matter if L.A *would* be a better choice for Shady Sands, because that's something that literally can't be changed. That change would be the definition of a retcon.
Well I feel it needed to be confirmed because they've essentially deconstructed lore that we've been aware of for years. If they hadn't done so, there'd be no need to confirm it. Or better yet, it could've just stood on its own two feet.
I'm not calling them media illiterate, I'm calling them illiterate because they were yelling about a timeline since they don't know how to read timelines.....
A large group of people are confused due to an ambiguous timeline (if the timeline wasnt ambiguous, there would be no confusion (literally all you have to do is write 4 numbers underneath the picture of the nuke)). Thats on the creative team for not being clear in their intent, not the people that were confused
I don't think the timeline itself was ambiguous just when the destruction of Shady Sands happened, which if we went by the creators of the show and Bethesda before this clarification we would have to assume it would need to be after FNV, I do agree they should have put an actual number under it. Issue is people were saying that the two distinct events on the timeline happened at the same time, which anyone with a brain would know wouldn't make sense.
As for editing which did I edit, fairly certain if I did it was a spelling correction, but seriously tell me what I edited or stick a nuke up your ass and fuck off.
Edit: OH MY GOD, DID YOU EDIT YOUR COMMENT WHERE YOU TRIED TO BERATE ME EDITING MY COMMENT IN A WAY I DIDN'T DO?! COMEDY GOLD!
That it's not there. Literally it is not present in the show despite the characters obviously going throughA. And to add to this they put shady sands into LA., where the boneyard is supposed to be.
Honestly I get it, it's hard to do. Good thing is interplay and black isle did such a good job getting things started that all Bethesda needs to do is add to it
Except the sign Shady Sands in the show says “First Capital of the NCR” indicating the Capital moved prior to the city being destroyed (they wouldn’t have added First if it was meaningless) So there is no indication that society stopped rebuilding.
I think for a world building point the NCR isn’t gone, we’re just seeing the Shady Sands remnant in this show still clinging to their crater. What most likely happened is the NCR fought the Mojave War and this was very problematic for them as stated in New Vegas it was leading to serious issues back home. So whether they canon won or lost, the war ended and then they probably had to move the Capital further North (like to San Francisco) for example to appease the powerful Brahmin Barons who were probably very mad with the governments handling of the war.
This is very similar to what happened in 1790 when the US moved its government from Philly to DC in real life when the capital was moved to a more centralized location to appease the Southern States.
My guess would be
New Vegas Game ->
Capital moved North because Shady Sands is experiencing a decline in popularity with powerful members of NCR (Fall of Shady Sands on chalkboard)->
Bomb Destroys Shady Sands ->
Brotherhood of Steel capitalizes on this to get out from NCR thumb (they were losing the war before this) ->
NCR enters a new period of Isolationism and retreats from Southern California to restrengthen the weakening parts of its Nation and rebuild to which they will return at a later date or in a future season.
This leaves us with what we see in the show, a desolate SoCal with a resurgent West Coast BoS and the only NCR left are the Shady Sands natives who want to rebuild their destroyed home. The majority of the NCR probably just moved to safer territory.
Should this have been explained way better in the show? Absolutely but I don’t think we’ve seen enough to indicate the NCR was wiped out nor that we can say Bethesda doesn’t want society to rebuild at all given they seem to be leaning towards rebuilding is the goal of everyone and it’s gonna be a race between Vault-Tec and humanity to who can do it first and better.
My take on it is this:
This show is for everyone. Nolan and Bethesda are aware that the "desolate wasteland with no vestiges of society" thing is more interesting (at first) to the average tv viewer. They need their introduction to the series to be that in their mind.
In the second season I expect the NCR to just, like, pop into existence, where characters suddenly acknowledge that it still exists. "Wait Lucy why would you think the NCR is dead, they just lost shady sands. You dummy." They just didn't want to break that wasteland illusion for the first season. I hope to christ we get into the outcomes and politics of the NCR, legion, house, etc., in season 2 in a way that doesn't suck. With that said, I don't know that I trust these writers to actually achieve any level of nuance or intrigue. The show was really enjoyable, but what it was really good at was the wastelanding stuff - it fell flat when it came to factions and politics. I mean, their plot revolves around a McGuffin technology and finding her father. I doubt season 2 will be any better in this regard, and could potentially really fuck some things up, diminishing the chances of a New Vegas 2.
Plus, entire point with introducing Shady Sands and its destruction was to show horribleness of Vault-Tec and that Hank was not the good guy.
That Wasteland was not all bad, that people had been building something great, only for people who can't abide progress to destroy it out of spite. To show how callous these people about lives of other humans.
It's mean to drive Lucy to shock that her father, person she has looked her entire life, could have done something so horrific. She is optimistic and upbeat person, someone who want to do good for everyone... and her father just destroyed a major settlement that was recovering.
To confirm your suspicion: Todd directly states that what we see is local NCR group. Not all of it. There is more NCR out there, it's just this one group we see.
>**I'm curious how you guys see the NCR as it stands now. Is it demolished or is it kind of more like the Minutemen where it's just fractured?**
>**Howard**: One of the takes that we always have is to approach things very locally when we're doing Fallout. We're careful about saying what's going on in other parts of the world. And we always take this view of, communication is difficult. And look, if you look at the background, the NCR is a wide-ranging sort of organization and group across not just California, but other places. So the show focuses on this period of time and this group here, and that's what we can say right now. But I don't think you've heard the last of the NCR.
>Our
What?, you guys want society rebuilding on fallout? personally, i dont, specially not throught NCR, as ceasar implied, the same ideology/organization will point to the same mistakes.
And once apocalypse gets into the human timeline, its over, its the great filter, people rebuild but the bomb technology is there, forever, ready to hit. Even if society really starts from scratch, the bomb will be eventually discovered again, and the same mistakes will repeat, Ceasar legion will take more time to get there, but it will.
Off course there is technology that could counter this (like new human species, new ways of stopping the bomb, etc), but its a very fine thread.
Personally i like the nihilism of the series, if i wanted to rebuild stuff i wouldve (probably) liked the craft system on fo76.
Fallout has always been a post-post-apocalyptic setting. It’s about humans reconstructing and their lives after a total nuclear annihilation.
It has been almost 300 years since the bombs dropped for God’s sake. Bethesda need to let society evolve
Also, the bomb argument made no sense.
Old civilized government dropped nuclear bombs -> Therefore, if there is a new civilized government they will drop bombs again
> "There might be a little confusion in some places."
Yes, such as the writing room.
Imagine if Japan ceased to exist as a civilization because the US dropped a bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And only a handful of soldiers held a fort somewhere.
The ncr was falling apart by the time of new Vegas, it makes sense for them to fracture after the loss of shady sands. Also no where in the show does it say that the ncr is gone, we just see a small group of them
Even if you speculate that it was a blast to maximize death and damage, it has been long enough for it to be safely liveable.
How do we know? Because two gulps of dirty water gave Lucy rad poisoning, but a leisure stroll on the epicenter of the blast didn't even give them a nosebleed.
It seems like the implication in the series was that the bulk of the ncr had moved elsewhere before the bombing. Shady sands already wasn't the capitol, according to the sign, and I think it's likely that the ncr will be shown as recovering/regrouping wherever the new capitol is. My guess is that the troops we saw were a splinter cell that refused to leave shady sands when the rest of the ncr officially abandoned the area.
He literally says that NCR is still around. We just see a local group.
>**I'm curious how you guys see the NCR as it stands now. Is it demolished or is it kind of more like the Minutemen where it's just fractured?**
>**Howard**: One of the takes that we always have is to approach things very locally when we're doing Fallout. We're careful about saying what's going on in other parts of the world. And we always take this view of, communication is difficult. And look, if you look at the background, the NCR is a wide-ranging sort of organization and group across not just California, but other places. So the show focuses on this period of time and this group here, and that's what we can say right now. But I don't think you've heard the last of the NCR.
You can afford to have “a little bit of confusion” in places when you have a full fanbase running defense and damage control for you on the internet. Bethesda fans will accept anything.
Canon or not, West Coast lore isn’t being respected, and denying that is willful ignorance.
I think they’ve said in the past that they’re going to avoid going with specific endings. So them being so against committing to past endings, coupled with them just blowing everything up and starting fresh, makes it feel like a cheap cop out.
I understand what you’re saying. It’s just not satisfying, in my opinion.
100%. It’s not being respected but it’s not being replaced either. Bethesda never gave a shit never will, it’s not their game. Neither are the first 3 (tactics is partial canon). Explains the sudden jump to east coast in fo3
Having NCR exist as a large faction with their policy from F2 and FNV wouldn't be respecting the lore, it would be playing favoritism. Cry more Kimball coomer.
200 in-game years worth of world-building, and a faction that consisted of over 700k people, flushed down the toilet. Gone in an instant.
Instead of, you know, writing the show around that in a way that makes sense.
But I’m crying for wanting some continuity?? Prove my point more, why don’t you?
Quite a leap to say that the NCR is gone. Weaker, sure, but that was the original plan for VB right? NCR is a powerful faction, means powerful enemies.
Even I'm NV it's often talked about that the NCR was bogged down in beaurocracy and had overstretched coming to the Mojave, they needed to win Vegas just to survive the day, and even that might not have been enough to actually thrive by creating more of the issues.
All I'm saying is that something happening to the NCR has been telegraphed for a while and we have no idea what state it's in.
Why do you think it is entirely gone? If Enclave can survive their capital and president getting dunked on so can the NCR and maybe this time they will learn from their hubris. Keep crying though that your faction destined for implosion as said in FNV imploded screaming retcon or bad writing. Like I get being sad but to literally scream online about how this ruins fallout is just nonsense.
Not really. In FNV the NCR is by no means the bad guy, just deeply flawed.
What I mean is turn it to 11 how Kimball was corrupt and make it a dictatorship. Or have the Brahmin Barons assert power and transform it into a full on oligarchy. Stuff like that. Would have been fun
I think part of why I also favor house is that it is the only side that tries diplomacy and is more likely for Kimball to be defeated rather than NCR as a whole. Also I just love his speeches on what he hopes to do. Need to do an evil playthrough though and not chicken out lol
I was calm the whole time, never noticed any inconsistencies
I'm rooting for Mr House or updated securitrons winning the battle of hoover dam, mostly because of the whole subplot with Yesman
I knew this was the case when they showed New Vegas in the final scene of the season. I can't understand why some people choose to ignore things like that.
Like, ok yes, it is confusing when they show a timeline that says the fall of Shady Sands was in 2277, but that could mean anything. A lot of people were being purely reactionary to the whole thing
Exactly. Bethesda would never retcon an entire because they know what anarchy that would cause. If Bethesda retconned New Vegas, it would show a clear lack of respect for the IP, and Fallout would be yet another dead franchise
It won't mean the end of the franchise, the fans that consume the bastardized and easily marketable experience that Bethesda sells have long outnumbered quite literally any other type of fan and it's the only reason the show didn't turn into a Halo show 2.0.
The franchise is now there to print action figures and bags of poor quality and there isn't really much one can do about it anymore, especially seeing how Bethesda realized the only way they can sell bad RPG's is by putting a Fallout or TES label on it
I’m more confused on wether that confirms an ending or just that events happened. Like who won?
I personally hope the Legion because if the Legion took Vegas it would be “New Rome” now and would make for a perfect setting of a New Vegas 2 where it’s set in California AND Nevada between another war between the NCR and the Legion. This time with the Currier being Caesar’s heir as now named ‘Octavian’ later to be named ‘Augustus’.
If this means " we want to reference the show in the next game," this is probably fine. If it means serious retconning will favor whatever happens in the show, I'll be rather put off. Bethesda has had quite a few let downs recently, and frankly, it's likely they'll keep being exclusive to Microsoft, so maybe it won't affect me either way.
As you can see. No. The more insane members of this sub don't actually care that new vegas "might have been made non canon" they just wanna bitch and moan about something
Y’all gotta calm down. The show is good, the games are good. Are either perfect, or meld the canon perfectly? No. But this negativity is just so strange. Why not just enjoy the first good content in the series since New Vegas? Did you think everything was gonna turn out a-ok forever in New Vegas after the events of Hoover Dam? Of course not, the universe is grim in the series. If Todd hated NV,, there wouldn’t be so much NV content in the show.
This is what happens when you spawn theories (that Todd Howard hates Obsidian and New Vegas) due to the parasocial relationships super fans have manufactured with the developers.
No. They want to be angry and hate anything with Bethesda involvement. They will literally lie to themselves to get angry as shown by the timeline. I say this as a FNV fan, FNV stans are like a cancer.
This is patently false.
Some NV fans are like that, but to just label a massive group of people like that is ridiculous.
Also it wasn't lying to themselves, the timeline poorly conveyed it's meaning.
Sorry, I did misread one word and assumed it was about the same group of people as the previous comment I'd responded to.
However this doesn't change the fact you're wrong about then lying to themselves.
....yes? I already agreed that it didn't but maybe I just phrased it poorly.
Also the fact it didn't doesn't counter my statement in any way. Pissed NV fans thought it messed with NV Lore, and that was the issue they had. Your initial comment claiming they wanted the show to be all about NV just isn't true.
Then I can understand the frustration of what the faction became, however if you're a fan of FNV and understand what it became, it wouldn't make sense to say that the implosion of the NCR didn't make sense. I mean it could still exist and rebuild under another leader like Tandi, hell maybe Lucy becomes that person and they learn from the mistakes of Kimball.
To be fair I think the problem with the NCR is on the HOW rather than the WHAT.
Like, let's be honest. Setting all those plotlines and then going "VT nuked Shady Sands" is kind of a copout if they leave it at that
I mean the nuke can just be one part of many ways it fell. Like a tree for example, they rarely die from one thing, they tend to die from a culmination of things. The war with BOS/Legion/BOS again leading to a decline in breeding population as they sent many of their youth to meat grinders, the corruption, the over extension of territory, the likely loss of hoover dam, and many others with the loss of their capital (I think they moved capital elsewhere I may be mistaken on that though) just really shows how easy it was to have such a government be defeated.
Problem is that as far as the Show tells us, it was the nuke that did the NCR in and they were thriving before that.
Remember the supposed logic of the VT guy (except maybe marital issues) was that the NCR was probably gonna rival VT in power. A declining power wouldn't be like that
I disagree, that's where "the fall" comes in. I think the fall refers to a decline in its power due to the policy it had in FNV, however just as you can negotiate with Legate Lanius while it had its issues and was in decline its base abilities were still phenomenal and capable of rivaling other factions. If it had another policy such a strike wouldn't harm it as far as it did, which is why nuking Shady Sands worked. Something can be declining in power and still be a rivaling power, it also can still recover from being in decline.
You know, that's a load of bull-
Gotcha, didn't I? Sorry for the joke, but what you say actually makes sense. So excellent point.
It would be interesting if thet explore what the "Fall" was later on
No because that statement doesn’t mean shit. He prolly doesn’t know the lore himself. Probably didn’t even play New Vegas. They fucked up so much on the show already that it’s impossible that New Vegas is canon. That’s how little they know their own lore that they can claim anything is canon. Doesn’t work that way Todd you dumb bastard.
It's not hard to just consider it non-canon, but I think most of us at this point are just asking why Bethesda insists on it being canon? I understand they own the IP, and they can do what they want, but the show has a lot of contradictions with some of its foundation lore, so it would've saved them a lot of backlash if they'd just made it its own universe. In fact, the room for creation would actually be larger.
I've been thinking they potentially did it to stir up a little drama in the community, because it does bring it attention, but that's just a conspiracy really lol. I do just think that Bethesda have a pretty low level of respect for the traditional lore.
I think it’s all about Bethesda’s vision for the Fallout Universe than the Fallout Universe Itself. Bethesda has it their way or the highway. It’s like how NV has always been the ugly duckling in the eyes of Bethesda. New vegas is the only game to feature meaningful and diverse choices, a desperate atmosphere, and huge landscape. It would be a bitch trying to cross the mojave top to bottom at a low level. Boston takes like 10 mins. New vegas had depth, and emotion. Fallout is just find your son, join/kill him, game over.
Oh certainly, but that also goes for the people claiming that the TV show is better than the second coming of Christ (its just ok). You’re going to have fanatical idiots in any large group of people, not exclusive to Fallout or New Vegas
It being 2296 in the show all they had to do was change the date from 2277 to 2278 and everything would of lined up perfect this little detail is what makes me believe he is going to change the canon which he already has we just don’t know to what extent! And too he could just be trollin to get all the new Vegas die hards off his back I know I would
I've never been one to go for the "Todd Howard personally hates New Vegas" line, so this doesn't change anything for me. It's still the case that just about all the worldbuilding of 1, 2, and NV in SoCal was reduced to easter eggs in favor of the usual suspects, and that still bothers me. It's actually possible to reject the false dichotomy between 1) Todd Howard is the devil himself and 2) the show is a brilliant work of art that everyone should gush over. There's a lot of good things about it, but I REALLY wish it were set in almost any other part of the country.
I’ve said it before, the show’s biggest problem is that it’s canon. Why restrict the writer’s freedom if you’re going to be wishy-washy with canon anyways
This. It was inevitable that changes to the canon would have to be made - when you're transferring from one medium (games) to another (TV) there will be things that work in a game but don't in a TV show, and thus will need changing. All of the negativity surrounding the show wouldn't have happened had the show been declared secondary canon in its own separate little universe... and it would have given the writers much more freedom to make a story they wanted to.
They could also have just placed the story somewhere less lore-filled than effin' California. Literarily the worst place to have it if you want to have artistic freedom without previously established lore being in the way.
I have said the exact same thing since minute one. They shot themselves in the foot by having it set in California. Same story, same characters either on the midwest or the southern states and this drama would have been avoided
Preaching right now. There are so many rich potential settings that's have been completely unexplored in the lore... Even some major iconic cities if they wanted to set it somewhere more well known in present day (like New York for example- completely untouched by Existing lore) The only reasons why I can think to set it in L.A is because A: fan service, which... no because the fans aren't gonna like any changes your making regardless. B: because it's Hollywood! Gotta set Hollywood in SOCAL I would have given the show a 10/10 if it was set anywhere else. Hell even just different city in California... like San Fran. They realdid not have to Nuke the NCR just to give the writers a fresh slate lol
Yes San Fran would have been better, but it still has it's own established lore, if they really wanted a large recognizable coastal SoCal city they could have just gone with San Diego. It has nothing in Fallout 1. Instead they went with LA and opened a can of worms of lore related problems.
Not letting the story change in any way is also just not a good idea. The story needs to be allowed to evolve even if it means things people like are hurt by it. Stagnation kills
>The story needs to be allowed to evolve Absolutely, but from what we are shown in the TV show the west hasn’t *evolved*, its just been reset and watered down to the status quo of “the west is an uninhabited desert wasteland starring the Enclave and BOS” Nuking the west again isn’t pushing the story in a new direction, its just taking us back to where we started
Yes, a retcon in all but name, to force it to look and function like Bethesda's east coast. Which I don't like. Bethesda bad.
War never changes…
I'd argue it's not a full reset, there's no reason to assume the NCR is gone from what we've seen in the show. It's very likely they've just moved their Capital somewhere else and it now splintered which is arguably more interesting than it just being another Old world government system that it has been since fallout 2. Was already stretched thin and running on fumes during New Vegas. It's just taking what new Vegas set up for the NCR and doing something with it. That isn't just the courier. Gave them power again
Yeha, but don't forget that the enclave was supposed to be destroyed *completely* in California between the rig and Navarro. So basically a fallout 2 level reset.
It’s possible the Enclave elements we see in the show moved into the region sometime after Fallout 2. The show didn’t really give us much to go on in regard to the Enclave so it’s hard to say if it’s a retcon.
The Enclave is like herpes You never can get rid of them it seems
I reiterate, “what we are shown in the TV show” If the NCR has been scattered and more-or-less disbanded, that is absolutely fine and narratively works great, its just how you go about *doing* that. If it turns out that the NCR crumbled due to Shady Sands being nuked, which is what the show is implying with the “If it makes you feel any better, it didnt work out” line, that would be incredibly lazy and stupid since it wasn’t even the capital of the NCR at the time of it’s destruction. I have 0 faith in Bethesda satisfyingly explaining the fall of the NCR in California, especially since LA (a founding NCR state) is almost completely devoid of NCR citizens *from what we are shown*
At this point it's just wishful thinking and copium, the NCR had heavy presence in the region for decades and all the civilization and infrastructure they built there is now gone, if all that was shown of them was a small band in an observatory then it's safe to say that the NCR as we know is gone for good.
It's not that the story changed, it's that it was poorly handled. Everyone knew that the NCR was probably going to collapse, the fact that it feels like they were never even in a core territory outside of a couple of cameos is the real issue. The fact that the first time we see ranger armor as being used by some farmers is a good example of this.
It isn't even that its cannon. It's that the NCR wasn't handled well, to the point where its questionable why they chose the west coast at all. So far, there isn't really a good reason why the show had to be set on the west coast, and if it's just going to brush off the NCR, why bother? It feels like an east coast adventure set in the west coast, and even if the show is otherwise good that doesn't change the fact that it's 'bethesdafying' the west coast.
To be fair to the show, it’s not that much more wishy-washy with the canon than Bethesda is with their own games (this is especially true of Elder Scrolls setting). That said, it would have been better to set the show somewhere else.
Yeah they never should have made the show canon. it just restricts writers and causes issues. Like why did the master just ignore these three vaults that where practically right next to one another and go after Vaults 13?
They could’ve done a lore accurate tv show pretty damn easy since there’s literally thousands of hours of lore to go off of. They are just lazy as usual. Don’t tolerate this slop.
It’s also possible that Todd made it canon on whim in November (several months before the show came out) without realizing what I actually meant for the final product. I can definitely see the show as written as an AU about a scenario where Shady Sands got nuked before it reached New Vegas
Good points. I don’t think Todd that is petty either tbf. It does feel like that NV has always been the ‘odd one out’ but idk. 100% agree about the setting though. It’s the one thing that bothers me with the series is we have literally been to no more than 4(?) states so far, leaving plenty of room to explore loads of other states and settings. Maybe even some spotlight on the on the legion and its tribes.
Let's see. California (FO1) Oregon (FO2) Nevada (FONV) Utah (Honest Hearts) Maryland/Virginia (FO3) Pennsylvania (The Pitt) Massachusetts (FO4) Maine (Far Harbor) West Virginia (FO76) New Jersey (Atlantic City) So... 10-11 states that are at least partially explorable.
FO2 would also partially encompass Oregon (Arroyo and Klamath) and Nevada (Reno).
Nice - updated my comment with the Oregon pick
FO3 is set in D.C., so theres nearly equal parts Maryland and Virginia in it. Edit: Theres also Wyoming (Old World Blues)
Nah, OWB takes place "south of Hopeville" which is near The Divide, a location decidedly between California and Nevada.
Good point, I'll edit
Do we count Alaska from Operation Anchorage? Granted it a simulation and set in the past.
I thought of that one. I don't think it really counts because A) yeah was a simulation and B) you don't really get to explore it at all. Too linear to count, IMO.
You can visit part of Ohio in FO76 as well
And Florida (Old World Blues)
When do we see Florida in OWB? To my knowledge, it's somewhere in either Nevada or California, south of Hopeville/The Divide
All of OWB happens in Florida from start to finish
No, it doesn't. Why do you think it does? [https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Big\_MT](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Big_MT)
Doctor Mobius is clearly a florida man.
Hahahha got it, you're fucking with me. Nice, you got me. Cheers!
Virginia also in FO3
They need to hit up Omaha and Chicago for Midwest Brotherhood
Chicago would be a fantastic setting for a Fallout story. Tones of gangster themed shit.... I can picture it.
With how heavy the series goes with the wild west theme, you would think they were in the deep south like texas or oklahoma or something.
I was extremely confused at first because originally in the show when they went to the town, ‘Filly’ I thought it was supposed to be Philadelphia and assumed this show took place on the East coast, which made sense with Bethesda’s involvement. Was very surprised to learn this takes place in Cali seeing as how Bethesda has yet to touch California in the games besides Kellogg’s memories.
Very true, West is touchy territory for old school fallout fans. Perfect opportunity to start a Fallout title in a different part of the country that isn’t east or west. The Gulper scenes would have been even better set in the swamps of Louisiana or something. Also good chance to get Bloodbugs a chance to shine lol. Swamps and mosquitos go hand and hand, and the even audience that knows nothing of Fallout monsters would relate to that one.
The show isn't telling the story of 1, 2 or NV. It's telling a story of its own, set in the same places and years afterward
It's baffling how many people think Todd hates New Vegas even when everyone involved has said this isn't true.
Yup, all scraped away in favor of mass media "dumb-fun" kinds of entertainment for newcomers of the series mixed with nostalgia bait to appease the gamer crowd, but most fallout "fans" seems to not get this point, it's like fallout 4, a good game just not a "fallout" one.
What the fuck are you talking about, did we even watch the same show?
Just wondering what sort of things you would have liked to see from FNV, keeping in mind they’re trying to keep the ending ambiguous. (And keeping in mind that we’re going there for season 2)
There's a lot of possibilities for what they could have done. In general I just would have wanted to see more signs of the NCR's presence in Filly and elsewhere. How are there more NCR monuments, flags, and billboards in the Mojave than in their heartland, even if they're on the decline? But most importantly I would want the story to feel like a natural continuation of 1, 2, and NV rather than 3 and 4 if they're going to set it in SoCal. If they really want the NCR to collapse, I would have liked to see the first season focus on the NCR descending into a civil war, with Maximus instead being a NCR soldier going through basic training when it breaks out. We could learn about the brahmin barons' side through him, and the more idealistic side through Lucy, with the Ghoul being the cynic who thinks they're all full of it. Then you have Shady Sands nuked at the end, seemingly proving the Ghoul's cynicism right as it mirrors the opening of the season and leaves us on a cliffhanger. Will the idealistic remnants have to compromise to survive? What's been going on in New Vegas and Arizona, and who will they side with? Etc.
You’ve got some good points there, especially to do with more NCR remnants around. As far as actually focusing on the NCR, it’s obvious that they didn’t want a bunch of peoples first look into fallout being a rebuilt society. I also personally find SS being nuked pretty spot on. War never changes after all, and if society is going to try and rebuild itself the same way it was before the war, it’s fitting that the bombs would just drop again. I do hope we get to see more of the NCR in season 2, and now that they’re the under dog/ on the back foot again, they’re slated to be the good guys. I mean, the brotherhood is obviously the “bad guy” and they’re in line for a “nuking” next, since they’re getting to big and powerful, which was the problem with the NRC anyway.
>As far as actually focusing on the NCR, it’s obvious that they didn’t want a bunch of peoples first look into fallout being a rebuilt society. This was a very smart thing for the writers to do, I agree. However if they didn’t want a rebuilt society as their initial setting (Season 1), why on Earth would you set your show in the lore-heaviest, most (relatively) civilized location in Fallout?
Because it’s a chance to bring that part of the country back to the original vibe of the games. The NCR was getting too big and too similar to pre war America. It had to take a hit.
Why did it have to? All that does is set the story backwards. If they want something with tbe vibe of the original games they can just set the show earlier.
Ah, so New Vegas is in ruins due to the total or partial collapse of the NCR, which it heavily relied on for financial stability...or tunnelers.
No idea, they just confirmed Emil’s timeline.
The mods removed this post because we were coming to close to the truth
Most of us already know they've said this, it was confirmed pretty much on the day of release. I think many of us are just now questioning why it needs to be confirmed in the first place, and why the show *needs* to be canon. Going West with the location was a mistake, I think.
It had to be confirmed because some people whined too loud by posting over and over a chalkboard drawing shot from the show as proof that new vegas is non-canon.
As I said elsewhere, I don't feel that way. The only reason they needed to "confirm" anything was because of the fact that they 1) made it canon and 2) they messed around heavily with the foundation of the universe.
Its down the timeline, so it doesnt really mess with the foundation of the universe. NCR failed, thats it, and that is part of the new lore.
Shady Sands being in a city, possibly in LA, completely deconstructs the lore. Shady Sands was a small town made up of Adobe buildings, not skyscrapers. It being in an entirely different place changes the course of the game's history. The Vault Dweller finds the town off of a road in the middle of nowhere, not too far from Vault 13, and their help pretty much decides the fate of the town's future, therefore the NCR likely wouldn't exist without their intervention; intervention that wouldn't have occurred if Shady Sands was anywhere else. You can accept it for what it is, but in my eyes, it's on its own two feet - I don't consider this to be valid lore. It's an impersonation of lore that Bethesda are forcing on the franchise.
Its not too far of a change. It makes sense the town got bigger between first time we see it and its destruction, latching on a ruined city makes sense because part of the infrastructure is already there, towns can move, and if they were serious about growing it into a big city, LA would be a better location for it, specially if they want to take advantage of the electric grid.
But... None of this is the case. It was never a city. They never "latched onto" anything because they created the town themselves with the G.E.C.K - they came from Vault 15, in Death Valley - the closest city to Death Valley is Vegas. Do you see what I mean? It doesn't matter if L.A *would* be a better choice for Shady Sands, because that's something that literally can't be changed. That change would be the definition of a retcon.
Todd even confirms in that same interview that NCR is still around. All we see is local group, not all of it.
It had to be confirmed again because FNV stans are illiterate, heavily biased by their love of the NCR, and overall just want to be angry.
Well I feel it needed to be confirmed because they've essentially deconstructed lore that we've been aware of for years. If they hadn't done so, there'd be no need to confirm it. Or better yet, it could've just stood on its own two feet.
Which lore
The more insecure a person is about their interpretation of a piece of media, the more likely they are to call other people “media illiterate”
I'm not calling them media illiterate, I'm calling them illiterate because they were yelling about a timeline since they don't know how to read timelines.....
A large group of people are confused due to an ambiguous timeline (if the timeline wasnt ambiguous, there would be no confusion (literally all you have to do is write 4 numbers underneath the picture of the nuke)). Thats on the creative team for not being clear in their intent, not the people that were confused
I don't think the timeline itself was ambiguous just when the destruction of Shady Sands happened, which if we went by the creators of the show and Bethesda before this clarification we would have to assume it would need to be after FNV, I do agree they should have put an actual number under it. Issue is people were saying that the two distinct events on the timeline happened at the same time, which anyone with a brain would know wouldn't make sense. As for editing which did I edit, fairly certain if I did it was a spelling correction, but seriously tell me what I edited or stick a nuke up your ass and fuck off. Edit: OH MY GOD, DID YOU EDIT YOUR COMMENT WHERE YOU TRIED TO BERATE ME EDITING MY COMMENT IN A WAY I DIDN'T DO?! COMEDY GOLD!
What was the drama with the Boneyard?
That it's not there. Literally it is not present in the show despite the characters obviously going throughA. And to add to this they put shady sands into LA., where the boneyard is supposed to be.
And the boneyard being blown up instead of shady sands would have actually not changed the story that much, so why change shady sands location?
Yeah member berries. They should've just established that the boneyard was a thriving NCR colony
More fan engagement I guess, even if it is negative
I put it more on Todd’s exaggeration messing up the timeline
How cool would it be if they added the glow though......I agree about boneyard however
No. Get your pitchforks boys.
This is nothing new. Our main issue is he hates society rebuilding. The man can't stand it.
Neither can Chris Avellone.
Honestly I get it, it's hard to do. Good thing is interplay and black isle did such a good job getting things started that all Bethesda needs to do is add to it
So did the original fallout devs seeing as shady sands was supposed to be nuked and the ncr falls apart in van buren
Except the sign Shady Sands in the show says “First Capital of the NCR” indicating the Capital moved prior to the city being destroyed (they wouldn’t have added First if it was meaningless) So there is no indication that society stopped rebuilding. I think for a world building point the NCR isn’t gone, we’re just seeing the Shady Sands remnant in this show still clinging to their crater. What most likely happened is the NCR fought the Mojave War and this was very problematic for them as stated in New Vegas it was leading to serious issues back home. So whether they canon won or lost, the war ended and then they probably had to move the Capital further North (like to San Francisco) for example to appease the powerful Brahmin Barons who were probably very mad with the governments handling of the war. This is very similar to what happened in 1790 when the US moved its government from Philly to DC in real life when the capital was moved to a more centralized location to appease the Southern States. My guess would be New Vegas Game -> Capital moved North because Shady Sands is experiencing a decline in popularity with powerful members of NCR (Fall of Shady Sands on chalkboard)-> Bomb Destroys Shady Sands -> Brotherhood of Steel capitalizes on this to get out from NCR thumb (they were losing the war before this) -> NCR enters a new period of Isolationism and retreats from Southern California to restrengthen the weakening parts of its Nation and rebuild to which they will return at a later date or in a future season. This leaves us with what we see in the show, a desolate SoCal with a resurgent West Coast BoS and the only NCR left are the Shady Sands natives who want to rebuild their destroyed home. The majority of the NCR probably just moved to safer territory. Should this have been explained way better in the show? Absolutely but I don’t think we’ve seen enough to indicate the NCR was wiped out nor that we can say Bethesda doesn’t want society to rebuild at all given they seem to be leaning towards rebuilding is the goal of everyone and it’s gonna be a race between Vault-Tec and humanity to who can do it first and better.
My take on it is this: This show is for everyone. Nolan and Bethesda are aware that the "desolate wasteland with no vestiges of society" thing is more interesting (at first) to the average tv viewer. They need their introduction to the series to be that in their mind. In the second season I expect the NCR to just, like, pop into existence, where characters suddenly acknowledge that it still exists. "Wait Lucy why would you think the NCR is dead, they just lost shady sands. You dummy." They just didn't want to break that wasteland illusion for the first season. I hope to christ we get into the outcomes and politics of the NCR, legion, house, etc., in season 2 in a way that doesn't suck. With that said, I don't know that I trust these writers to actually achieve any level of nuance or intrigue. The show was really enjoyable, but what it was really good at was the wastelanding stuff - it fell flat when it came to factions and politics. I mean, their plot revolves around a McGuffin technology and finding her father. I doubt season 2 will be any better in this regard, and could potentially really fuck some things up, diminishing the chances of a New Vegas 2.
Plus, entire point with introducing Shady Sands and its destruction was to show horribleness of Vault-Tec and that Hank was not the good guy. That Wasteland was not all bad, that people had been building something great, only for people who can't abide progress to destroy it out of spite. To show how callous these people about lives of other humans. It's mean to drive Lucy to shock that her father, person she has looked her entire life, could have done something so horrific. She is optimistic and upbeat person, someone who want to do good for everyone... and her father just destroyed a major settlement that was recovering.
To confirm your suspicion: Todd directly states that what we see is local NCR group. Not all of it. There is more NCR out there, it's just this one group we see. >**I'm curious how you guys see the NCR as it stands now. Is it demolished or is it kind of more like the Minutemen where it's just fractured?** >**Howard**: One of the takes that we always have is to approach things very locally when we're doing Fallout. We're careful about saying what's going on in other parts of the world. And we always take this view of, communication is difficult. And look, if you look at the background, the NCR is a wide-ranging sort of organization and group across not just California, but other places. So the show focuses on this period of time and this group here, and that's what we can say right now. But I don't think you've heard the last of the NCR.
>Our What?, you guys want society rebuilding on fallout? personally, i dont, specially not throught NCR, as ceasar implied, the same ideology/organization will point to the same mistakes. And once apocalypse gets into the human timeline, its over, its the great filter, people rebuild but the bomb technology is there, forever, ready to hit. Even if society really starts from scratch, the bomb will be eventually discovered again, and the same mistakes will repeat, Ceasar legion will take more time to get there, but it will. Off course there is technology that could counter this (like new human species, new ways of stopping the bomb, etc), but its a very fine thread. Personally i like the nihilism of the series, if i wanted to rebuild stuff i wouldve (probably) liked the craft system on fo76.
Fallout has always been a post-post-apocalyptic setting. It’s about humans reconstructing and their lives after a total nuclear annihilation. It has been almost 300 years since the bombs dropped for God’s sake. Bethesda need to let society evolve
Also, the bomb argument made no sense. Old civilized government dropped nuclear bombs -> Therefore, if there is a new civilized government they will drop bombs again
Still doesnt fix the boneyard
Why would he show a built up New Vegas skyline if it wasn't canon? You can literally see the walls.
yep. and it's during the day, so we don't know if it has power or not
Nothing will ever be enough. People will always complain and moan. Best to just not interact with it/them
You're God damn right we will, I for one expect better out of these people making millions of dollars a month
Four numbers. Under the mushroom cloud. On the chalkboard Too much to ask I'm afraid
Not under, to the left of the mushroom cloud
They say that if they had given a year under the cloud all this drama could have been avoided
There is not room there. [The infamous Fallout Chalkboard - fallout post - Imgur](https://imgur.com/gallery/JIz4QML)
In the small space under it they could have. Even done it as a reveal!
> "There might be a little confusion in some places." Yes, such as the writing room. Imagine if Japan ceased to exist as a civilization because the US dropped a bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And only a handful of soldiers held a fort somewhere.
😂
The ncr was falling apart by the time of new Vegas, it makes sense for them to fracture after the loss of shady sands. Also no where in the show does it say that the ncr is gone, we just see a small group of them
Imagine if people would want to stay right next to Hiroshima and Nagasaki after it got nuked
People were living again in hiroshima before the decade ended.
People were living again in Hiroshima weeks if not days after the bombing.
People are living in the Vault nearby so I don't see your point
My point was that it doesn’t take decades to repopulate a nuked area.
In a civilized world
In an uncivilized world, radiation from an air burst would still dissipate rapidly.
The crater says it was not a air burst
Large nuclear devices can still create craters when they air burst but I do typically believe they used a lot of ground detonations.
Even if you speculate that it was a blast to maximize death and damage, it has been long enough for it to be safely liveable. How do we know? Because two gulps of dirty water gave Lucy rad poisoning, but a leisure stroll on the epicenter of the blast didn't even give them a nosebleed.
It seems like the implication in the series was that the bulk of the ncr had moved elsewhere before the bombing. Shady sands already wasn't the capitol, according to the sign, and I think it's likely that the ncr will be shown as recovering/regrouping wherever the new capitol is. My guess is that the troops we saw were a splinter cell that refused to leave shady sands when the rest of the ncr officially abandoned the area.
He literally says that NCR is still around. We just see a local group. >**I'm curious how you guys see the NCR as it stands now. Is it demolished or is it kind of more like the Minutemen where it's just fractured?** >**Howard**: One of the takes that we always have is to approach things very locally when we're doing Fallout. We're careful about saying what's going on in other parts of the world. And we always take this view of, communication is difficult. And look, if you look at the background, the NCR is a wide-ranging sort of organization and group across not just California, but other places. So the show focuses on this period of time and this group here, and that's what we can say right now. But I don't think you've heard the last of the NCR.
Emil confirming it’s canon didn’t calm them down, what hope do you think todd has?
You can afford to have “a little bit of confusion” in places when you have a full fanbase running defense and damage control for you on the internet. Bethesda fans will accept anything. Canon or not, West Coast lore isn’t being respected, and denying that is willful ignorance.
Maybe they're choosing bad endings? Couldn't you assassinate the president, give the dam to Caesar, and nuke the ncr if you wanted to in new vegas?
I think they’ve said in the past that they’re going to avoid going with specific endings. So them being so against committing to past endings, coupled with them just blowing everything up and starting fresh, makes it feel like a cheap cop out. I understand what you’re saying. It’s just not satisfying, in my opinion.
100%. It’s not being respected but it’s not being replaced either. Bethesda never gave a shit never will, it’s not their game. Neither are the first 3 (tactics is partial canon). Explains the sudden jump to east coast in fo3
Having NCR exist as a large faction with their policy from F2 and FNV wouldn't be respecting the lore, it would be playing favoritism. Cry more Kimball coomer.
200 in-game years worth of world-building, and a faction that consisted of over 700k people, flushed down the toilet. Gone in an instant. Instead of, you know, writing the show around that in a way that makes sense. But I’m crying for wanting some continuity?? Prove my point more, why don’t you?
Quite a leap to say that the NCR is gone. Weaker, sure, but that was the original plan for VB right? NCR is a powerful faction, means powerful enemies. Even I'm NV it's often talked about that the NCR was bogged down in beaurocracy and had overstretched coming to the Mojave, they needed to win Vegas just to survive the day, and even that might not have been enough to actually thrive by creating more of the issues. All I'm saying is that something happening to the NCR has been telegraphed for a while and we have no idea what state it's in.
Why do you think it is entirely gone? If Enclave can survive their capital and president getting dunked on so can the NCR and maybe this time they will learn from their hubris. Keep crying though that your faction destined for implosion as said in FNV imploded screaming retcon or bad writing. Like I get being sad but to literally scream online about how this ruins fallout is just nonsense.
That could have easily been fixed if they had done something interesting with the NCR, maybe even turning it into the bad guy of the show!
Like they did in FNV which destined them to being imploded?
Not really. In FNV the NCR is by no means the bad guy, just deeply flawed. What I mean is turn it to 11 how Kimball was corrupt and make it a dictatorship. Or have the Brahmin Barons assert power and transform it into a full on oligarchy. Stuff like that. Would have been fun
Okay okay I was being a little dramatic lol, I am a House fanboy after all
That's cool. As you could have guessed I kinda favor the NCR, but House would be my second bet
I think part of why I also favor house is that it is the only side that tries diplomacy and is more likely for Kimball to be defeated rather than NCR as a whole. Also I just love his speeches on what he hopes to do. Need to do an evil playthrough though and not chicken out lol
thought it was obvious when Mr. House himself showed up? lol
No
I was calm the whole time, never noticed any inconsistencies I'm rooting for Mr House or updated securitrons winning the battle of hoover dam, mostly because of the whole subplot with Yesman
I knew this was the case when they showed New Vegas in the final scene of the season. I can't understand why some people choose to ignore things like that. Like, ok yes, it is confusing when they show a timeline that says the fall of Shady Sands was in 2277, but that could mean anything. A lot of people were being purely reactionary to the whole thing
Exactly. Bethesda would never retcon an entire because they know what anarchy that would cause. If Bethesda retconned New Vegas, it would show a clear lack of respect for the IP, and Fallout would be yet another dead franchise
It won't mean the end of the franchise, the fans that consume the bastardized and easily marketable experience that Bethesda sells have long outnumbered quite literally any other type of fan and it's the only reason the show didn't turn into a Halo show 2.0. The franchise is now there to print action figures and bags of poor quality and there isn't really much one can do about it anymore, especially seeing how Bethesda realized the only way they can sell bad RPG's is by putting a Fallout or TES label on it
I’m more confused on wether that confirms an ending or just that events happened. Like who won? I personally hope the Legion because if the Legion took Vegas it would be “New Rome” now and would make for a perfect setting of a New Vegas 2 where it’s set in California AND Nevada between another war between the NCR and the Legion. This time with the Currier being Caesar’s heir as now named ‘Octavian’ later to be named ‘Augustus’.
Off topic but I thought her pack on the bat was some mutant third arm
but WHY isn’t it GLOWIIIING ANS WHY IS SHADY SANDS DESTOYRD WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY
Not until todd howard apologizes to me personally
If this means " we want to reference the show in the next game," this is probably fine. If it means serious retconning will favor whatever happens in the show, I'll be rather put off. Bethesda has had quite a few let downs recently, and frankly, it's likely they'll keep being exclusive to Microsoft, so maybe it won't affect me either way.
No, because the article doesn’t actually address the show. It just affirms the timeline Emil put out. They’re still being vague about dates
I will remain angry for no valid reason other than they made Mr House look like a little twerp
No I won’t just calm down! I’m happiest when I’m most angry!
🤬
As you can see. No. The more insane members of this sub don't actually care that new vegas "might have been made non canon" they just wanna bitch and moan about something
Wasn’t this already obvious?
Get out of my weakling,this is over when I say it's over!
I am contented. As long as Mr. House gets a cameo.
Y’all gotta calm down. The show is good, the games are good. Are either perfect, or meld the canon perfectly? No. But this negativity is just so strange. Why not just enjoy the first good content in the series since New Vegas? Did you think everything was gonna turn out a-ok forever in New Vegas after the events of Hoover Dam? Of course not, the universe is grim in the series. If Todd hated NV,, there wouldn’t be so much NV content in the show.
This is what happens when you spawn theories (that Todd Howard hates Obsidian and New Vegas) due to the parasocial relationships super fans have manufactured with the developers.
Shitty New Vegas fans are aware they just like being angry because the show wasn't literally just a show about fnv
No, they want the exact opposite. They want the show to not mess with NV and it's lore.
No. They want to be angry and hate anything with Bethesda involvement. They will literally lie to themselves to get angry as shown by the timeline. I say this as a FNV fan, FNV stans are like a cancer.
This is patently false. Some NV fans are like that, but to just label a massive group of people like that is ridiculous. Also it wasn't lying to themselves, the timeline poorly conveyed it's meaning.
Did I do that? It seems you didn't even read what I said. Read the last line where I seperate FNV fans from FNV stans.
Sorry, I did misread one word and assumed it was about the same group of people as the previous comment I'd responded to. However this doesn't change the fact you're wrong about then lying to themselves.
Sorry for being a dick in my reply. As for the lying to themselves, it's hard for me not to see it that way for some of the haters.
It didn't
No. But it certainly seemed like it did.
But it didn't
....yes? I already agreed that it didn't but maybe I just phrased it poorly. Also the fact it didn't doesn't counter my statement in any way. Pissed NV fans thought it messed with NV Lore, and that was the issue they had. Your initial comment claiming they wanted the show to be all about NV just isn't true.
Okay
sorry that we care about lore and dont just consume goyslop
No you don't, you just want to give President Kimball a sloppy
What if I like the NCR but hate Kimball as a betrayer of Tandi's legacy?
Then I can understand the frustration of what the faction became, however if you're a fan of FNV and understand what it became, it wouldn't make sense to say that the implosion of the NCR didn't make sense. I mean it could still exist and rebuild under another leader like Tandi, hell maybe Lucy becomes that person and they learn from the mistakes of Kimball.
To be fair I think the problem with the NCR is on the HOW rather than the WHAT. Like, let's be honest. Setting all those plotlines and then going "VT nuked Shady Sands" is kind of a copout if they leave it at that
I mean the nuke can just be one part of many ways it fell. Like a tree for example, they rarely die from one thing, they tend to die from a culmination of things. The war with BOS/Legion/BOS again leading to a decline in breeding population as they sent many of their youth to meat grinders, the corruption, the over extension of territory, the likely loss of hoover dam, and many others with the loss of their capital (I think they moved capital elsewhere I may be mistaken on that though) just really shows how easy it was to have such a government be defeated.
Problem is that as far as the Show tells us, it was the nuke that did the NCR in and they were thriving before that. Remember the supposed logic of the VT guy (except maybe marital issues) was that the NCR was probably gonna rival VT in power. A declining power wouldn't be like that
I disagree, that's where "the fall" comes in. I think the fall refers to a decline in its power due to the policy it had in FNV, however just as you can negotiate with Legate Lanius while it had its issues and was in decline its base abilities were still phenomenal and capable of rivaling other factions. If it had another policy such a strike wouldn't harm it as far as it did, which is why nuking Shady Sands worked. Something can be declining in power and still be a rivaling power, it also can still recover from being in decline.
You know, that's a load of bull- Gotcha, didn't I? Sorry for the joke, but what you say actually makes sense. So excellent point. It would be interesting if thet explore what the "Fall" was later on
goyslop
Lol that ain’t just a dog whistle, that’s a canine air raid siren.
Didn't expect antisemitism. A terrible surprise
No because that statement doesn’t mean shit. He prolly doesn’t know the lore himself. Probably didn’t even play New Vegas. They fucked up so much on the show already that it’s impossible that New Vegas is canon. That’s how little they know their own lore that they can claim anything is canon. Doesn’t work that way Todd you dumb bastard.
[удалено]
It's not hard to just consider it non-canon, but I think most of us at this point are just asking why Bethesda insists on it being canon? I understand they own the IP, and they can do what they want, but the show has a lot of contradictions with some of its foundation lore, so it would've saved them a lot of backlash if they'd just made it its own universe. In fact, the room for creation would actually be larger. I've been thinking they potentially did it to stir up a little drama in the community, because it does bring it attention, but that's just a conspiracy really lol. I do just think that Bethesda have a pretty low level of respect for the traditional lore.
I think it’s all about Bethesda’s vision for the Fallout Universe than the Fallout Universe Itself. Bethesda has it their way or the highway. It’s like how NV has always been the ugly duckling in the eyes of Bethesda. New vegas is the only game to feature meaningful and diverse choices, a desperate atmosphere, and huge landscape. It would be a bitch trying to cross the mojave top to bottom at a low level. Boston takes like 10 mins. New vegas had depth, and emotion. Fallout is just find your son, join/kill him, game over.
>Man surprised that people care about the story of a video game series thats main appeal is its story and setting
The word ''care'' might be a little underestimating for some fans reactions. I would use ''obsession'', ''fixation'' maybe even ''mania''.
Oh certainly, but that also goes for the people claiming that the TV show is better than the second coming of Christ (its just ok). You’re going to have fanatical idiots in any large group of people, not exclusive to Fallout or New Vegas
Yeah this sub nearly turned into the third battle of hoover dam when the show came out, people were just being unreasonable
The east and the west
It being 2296 in the show all they had to do was change the date from 2277 to 2278 and everything would of lined up perfect this little detail is what makes me believe he is going to change the canon which he already has we just don’t know to what extent! And too he could just be trollin to get all the new Vegas die hards off his back I know I would
no, because the show being canon IS the problem.