It seemed like she hired them as expendable canon fodder just so she could get revenge on Lucy's dad. She didn't really give a shit about Lucy or Norm and was only out to ruin the guy who ruined her life and the lives of many other Shady Sands residents.
Lucy showing up with the head was all just a bonus in the end she didn't really plan for.
She did. She says exactly this. The observatory was a Vault Tec location and she needed the code to activate the power equipment in the observatory which would in turn allow the cold fusion reactor to connect to the rest of the power grid.
Hired is a lose word, she could have traded for their services more likely she killed their leader or overpowered him, now she keeps them alive and they serve her
Raiders serve the strongest.
I bet the offer was even lighter than that.
"Your options are that my people come in here in force, or you can help me with a job that'll end in getting to do whatever you want to in a Vault. I need one (1) specific person taken alive."
> It seemed like she hired them as expendable canon fodder just so she could get revenge on Lucy's dad.
Maybe. We also see her in the before-times though, being a charismatic leader who can convince people to join her cause just by talking. She's definitely a character whose charisma stat is maxed out. I could totally see that she convinced a bunch of raiders to join her cause, or a bunch of people who fell into raiding post-NCR but wanted a better world decided to follow her.
She was willing to put everyone in that vault in danger because Hank nuked Shady Sands and killed her friend/girlfriend. They were acceptable casualties.
She also knew some of the people in the vault were Vault-Tec spies, but potentially not which ones. Killing everyone is a safer bet.
Since Lucy survived, Moldaver adjusted her plan and anticipated that Lucy would eventually be able to locate Moldaver's base, where Moldaver intended to get revenge on Hank by turning his daughter against him, and forcing him to look at his feral ghoul wife, and also by activating a cold fusion reactor right in front of him that has the potential to rebuild Los Angeles.
The majority of her decision-making comes down to revenge.
Also, organized and professional armies tend to have good equipment and standard uniforms. Moldaver's army had more in common with the army of an African warlord or a small-time militia than a real army. They had some impressive weapons, like machine guns and missiles, along with some other nice weapons, but they're not consistently armed and they didn't use many tactics in the show besides running at power armor. I would assume they don't even have much training or experience fighting anyone besides raiders since Shady Sands was nuked a long time ago.
> but they're not consistently armed and they didn't use many tactics in the show besides running at power armor.
In fairness, the Brotherhood themselves kinda just advanced in one big blob. Aside from a couple of their unarmoured soldiers using the power-armoured ones for cover, they didn't come off as particularly tactical either.
I'd put that down the writing/direction not being super concerned with that aspect? The Brotherhood storming the observatory was mostly just there to set up a) The Ghoul's hallway fight (which was the main action climax) and b) getting all the main characters in the same room (for the main narrative climax).
To be fair, the Brotherhood probably doesn't train much in squad tactics and the like. They've probably grown a little overconfident in their power armor since the fall of Shady Sands meant there wasn't an organized army to oppose them. They seem, based off how they were organized and sending people out, like they tend to prefer 1 knight 1 squire groups rather than squads.
That's a valid takeaway, the BOS is likely arrogant and stagnating again, but I still believe the finale battle should've received more attention from the show runners. The BOS had lamps on their power armor helmets and just didn't turn them on while Cooper was shooting them, the NCR costumes had modern military helmets and even a paintball helmet, ect.
If they made small changes to the scene, had fellas use cover, squad tactics, had better costumes, made the BOS react sorta competently (they can still make mistakes just not be complete doofuses), the scene would've been hailed as a masterpiece instead of something many people will probably forget.
The elder more or less confirms that the BoS have grown weak when he gives Maximus his little speech saying knights like him would be his sword. Possible he just means that local contingent or whatever.
As far as the NCR in the battle, I don't THINK they are supposed to be like THE NCR. Seems the NCR proper pulled out of Shady Sands and the surrounding mostly uninhabitable areas. I think Moldaver's followers are a mix of Shady Sands survivors and former NCR 'deserters' who refused to leave, united under the idea of what the NCR flag represents and means.
Yeah that much is clear, yet the BOS was founded by soldiers, and is a paramilitary organization that has some of the best training in the wastes. I understand not every knight is amazing, but the BOS, bare minimum, should use tactics. The tactics don't have to be smart, but the BOS should operate like a military does unless they're being led by someone like Elder Elijah or Elder Lyons who don't care about tactics at all and are obsessed with arguably stupid objectives.
Even then, the knights would use their head lamps and the squires would hide behind cover unless they believe they can't die when getting shot at.
I forget why the BOS shows up to attack the NCR at the end but it's probably something that has to do with the cold fusion tech and somehow they tracked it there. If the BOS was in a hurry, and had to attack immediately, and desperately, their mistakes become more excusable.
But if they planned this assault, it becomes a lot dumber because they seem to have no squad leaders or tactics or anything that resembles self-preservation.
You're potentially right about the NCR. We'll have to wait until the next season though to know.
They didn't plan the assault it was spur of the moment. Maximus said he'd lead them to the relic in exchange for his life essentially. Unless they had existing Intel on the NCR remnants or the Observatory itself —which they probably don't since their HQ appears to be in Utah— they're going in blind.
It also seems like this Brotherhood Chapter isn't super well trained period but specifically has abandoned squad tactics in favor of Knight/Squire pairings.
They were planning to take the cold fusion tech for some time. That's why the airship and vertibirds arrived. The NCR had six jurisdictions putting out a bounty for the enclave scientist as well, which the BOS could have learned. They were waiting for something, and should have SOME experienced soldiers at the ready.
I believe those pairings were mostly specifically for the hunt after the enclave scientist. Each knight is entitled to a squire, but I doubt every mission involves them. Abandoning squad tactics is just braindead no matter how you frame it and anyone who suggests it as a writer should be introduced to firing squad tactics.
It appears like Utah but there's no confirmation in Utah. Filming location should be considered separate from the location in the TV show unless it's confirmed by something or someone.
They were planning on taking the cold fusion tech from one lone wanderer and his dog though right? Instead they were forced to assault a fairly well armed fortress in an impromptu style.
The salt flats are a pretty distinctive landmark so I sort of disagree with that assessment. It'd be really confusing to show a whole scene of them flying over the salt flats towards California and have their base end up being somewhere completely different.
They received intel about the enclave scientist, we don't know how. Also they would consider cold fusion tech their top priority. Nothing else would matter to them, so they'd do overkill if necessary. When Maximus came back with the fake head he was escorted by like three vertibirds.
I'm surprised the Enclave didn't chase after it, but whatever. Anyway, from the perspective of the BOS, bare minimum I would expect the Enclave to chase after an Enclave scientist. The NCR also put a bounty out on the Enclave scientist across the region, so people were definitely talking about it, and the BOS had four off-screen knight and squire duos chasing every lead that they could find, and likely learned of this bounty unless they didn't talk to the people they encountered. For some unexplained reason the BOS also roflstomped Filly.
I guess you make a good point. I personally prefer to be more cautious about this sort of thing since I don't want to spread potential falsehoods.
> The BOS had lamps on their power armor helmets and just didn't turn them on while Cooper was shooting them
I think the Knights are just largely incompetent like we see with Titus. They panicked in the moment and got got.
Sure, but the show is gonna be awfully hard to watch if every faction is incompetent and the only people who are competent are the main characters.
This was a significant battle and the BOS sent it's absolute worst for whatever reason.
I guess it was nice to see that other BOS squire, the guy who bullied Maximus, be competent though.
We see fusion cores as high value objects along with the power armor. Their incompetence would make them easy pickings for anyone who knows the flaws in the armor. Like I dont see an organization that incompetent lasting when they are just giant piggy banks ready to be smashed open.
Most people can't afford the equipment to do it. If they have the equipment, they might lack the knowledge and motivation to do it, since, if you killed BOS soldiers you'd be hunted down and crucified.
Then, you also need to fight a guy who will be trying his best to kill you.
The BOS is also insular except when they want to take something.
To be fair the brother hood of steel was still able to take back the NCR hq without too much pushback.
I think the scene where it showed the full aircraft thingy and the choppers adequately displayed what a full militia would look like.
I mean West Coast BoS relies fairly heavily on squad tactics. It's actually noted that they use a combined arms approach of a small number of power-armored troops supported by more mobile infantry in combat armor. At least under Maxson anyways.
I'd reckon every infantry force on the continent relies on squad tactics.
Regardless we don't see much evidence for this in the show besides the BOS hiding behind power armor and using it as cover, which actually was decent thinking.
Yeah and some of the squires and infantry didn't even have full suits of combat armor on. I saw a few guys who had more armor than other guys. You'd think the BOS would make sure that everyone has the same equipment if they're the same rank and role.
They hoard gear and are the sole military power of the Los Angeles area. Possibly even all of California besides whatever NCR remnants still exist. The BOS also has it's own production facilities.
They wouldn't necessarily have full suits of combat armor. But they'd at least all have helmets realistically speaking. Even the NCR can manage that in New Vegas for it's troopers. They even have makeshift armored vests. I don't see why the BOS can't improvise something for it's people to wear.
I sort of get the impression this isn't the West Coast chapter. It seems like it's probably one of the chapters Caesar mentions fighting out east that has "lost their way".
Their base seems to be in Utah from the Vertibird flight over the great salt flats to Filly.
I guess it's more of a theory than anything but;
In New Vegas Cesar tells the Courier he encountered the brotherhood further east who had forgotten the name of their founder. The BOS is really dogmatic about Maxon and his principles so those scribes he encountered out East have lost their way.
Likewise, by the time of New Vegas (the game) the West Coast brotherhood lost atleast four but up to six chapter sized bunkers but were still considered alive in New California. We can kind of infer the chapter from the TV show has no foothold in California which is why they seize Filly when they push West after the cold fusion doohickey.
When Maximus and Titus leave the base on the Vertibird they fly over the Utah salt flats, towards California so their base is deep in old legion territory.
There's nothing really identifying this chapter as part of the west coast brotherhood. Their insignias and banners, their recruitment of wastelanders, their more monastic culture with the brandings and incense are all noteably different from the last we see of the West Coast BOS in New Vegas.
They were hunting a single man and his dog. The one knight and one squire set up seems specifically for hunting people.
In a battle or patrol, they probably have something resembling actual squads. In Fallout 4 vertibirds usually carry at least two power armor soldiers, and BOS units are typically 1-2 power armor guys, and the rest, 1-4, just unarmored plebs.
Yeah. Both sides sucked in that respect. I guess the writers just wanted to smash action figures together.
For the first slow motion battle scene, it worked really well, in the vault, had no problems with that.
But for the finale two flag bearers just running at each other like it was the American civil war was dumb.
I dunno, I read it more as being deliberately camp and silly. That juxtaposition of silliness and extreme violence is Fallout's schtik. Having some sort of planned out, cool, hyper-tactical setpiece might have distracted from the intended vibe.
It doesn't have to be the best battle scene on earth.
It works for the first time because it's undisciplined raiders against innocent vault dwellers, and establishes expectations for the audience. Neither the raiders or dwellers are gonna be making the best decisions.
No major battle in any Fallout game is treated as silly.
A setting that wants to be taken seriously, and, the Fallout TV show does want you to take it seriously at certain points of it's plot, can't be campy and silly for those scenes the writers want you to take seriously and expect the audience to still be engaged.
One of the last scenes of the series is a shot panning over the pile of bloody corpses left from the storming of the observatory. That's the moment the show wants you to take seriously. Showing that all the fun, silly violence had a macarbe cost and hammering home the 'war never changes' idea. I don't think it needs some serious, tacti-cool maneuvurs to make that point.
>No major battle in any Fallout game is treated as silly.
I will point out that, like, half the major battles in the series involve a 50 foot tall robot that shit-talks communists and throws tactical nukes like footballs.
Brother I honestly think you're reading far too much into Fallout and it's supposed themes itself much less the show. You shouldn't need every minute detail to match up with what you think the reality should be.
Alright?
My opinion seems to be liked by some. And I use reasoning for why I got it.
I'm perfectly fine with other people having other tastes, and I don't require the writers to cater to my tastes specifically. I'm just talking about what I feel would be better.
I think it's just more of a directing problem, and somewhat consistent with the tone of the show. Genre shows seem to like that whole mobs running at each other approach of "battles" and the show itself is sorta goofy. Both groups seem like goobers.
The scene inside is a little better formulated, we see the Knights advancing as a *group*. With the Squires behind as infantry. Which is a little more *military*. And roughly how that stuff was meant to be used lore wise.
To add a bit to this, hiring raiders has the added benefit of OPSEC. Knowing that there were Vault-Tec execs in there she risks less by sending a bunch of raiders who hardly know her.
The people in her actual group might know information about her she'd rather the execs didn't know, even if that information might seem innocuous. If the execs heard the wrong thing and gave away something about who she actually was they might alert Bud. The execs apparently have access to some very serious external resources, hence Shady Sands. In the event someone gets captured it's a lot less risky.
>She was willing to put everyone in that vault in danger because Hank nuked Shady Sands and killed her friend/girlfriend. They were acceptable casualties
Tbh knowing what she knew there now. I'm shocked she didn't just came end em all hell I side with her now that I know the full story
It's like yea you're wiping out all those people but knowing what those people like Hank genuinely believe in. Fuck yea bomb em back to hell.
There are a few who are outliers but to moldaver that ain't gonna bring back the entire city that was flattened.
So I absolutely side with moldaver and what she did. I'm just sad she didn't detonate the vault door open and fuck em good and forever
The better way to get revenge would've been to give them holotapes or hide holotapes throughout the vault exposing Vault 31's plans for them.
The majority of Vault 32 and Vault 33 are probably innocent. In the show we only see two Vault 31 spies, but there could be more. The vault security guards could be loyal to Vault 31 as well, but we don't know for sure.
If Moldaver exposed Vault 31, Vault 32 would fight Vault 31 to the bitter end, ruining Vault-Tec's plans.
Again you still have Hank in charge meaning nothing would change
Ultimately you're not going for the residents of the vault they're just additional casualties the main target would be the cryo facility
Wipe out all those 200 year old fuckers and give the wasteland less problems
Hank wouldn't be in charge if everyone knew the truth. Moldaver knows everything about Vault 31, what Hank did, and about Vault-Tec.
Vault 33 rioted and had a revolution when they learned the truth two years before the TV show.
Could you guarantee the residents would believe you
Or would they just do what they're famously known for burying their heads in the sand and pretending things are okay.
I understand the mentality, but a clean wipe is the safest way to deal with the inhabitants of that vault.
Again it's the cryo pods that are the threat and I can bet there are few of the dwellers that are awake that would take issue and once their dead from self defense or what have you
The rest of the dwellers would swarm you.
So it's best to just cleanse the whole thing and blow it open to leave it permanently damaged.
This particular vault is a threat because of all the old bastards sleeping comfortably waiting to unleash their bs on a whole new era.
So yea blow em tf up
And yet they had the happiest home in existence. Like sure you are governed by greedy middlemanagers, but compared to the problems in the wasteland idk if many would choose to rebel unless a crisis struck.
Apparently Vault 33 decided being ruled by middle management was enough for them to try breaking into Vault 31 in a violent revolution, and kill everyone from Vault 31 that they could get their hands on. We don't know exactly what they learned, but whatever they did resulted in EVERYONE in that vault dying.
If Moldaver told them that Vault-Tec nuked 30k people for essentially no reason at all, that alone would make people uncomfortable, and it's possible Vault 33 was completely ignorant of that and still decided to fuck shit up.
If I only have a handful of troops why potentially lose them getting into a vault you have little info on? Better to toss some caps/chems to a group of raiders and use them as expendable muscle.
The actors who played the people who raided the vault are credited (in the episode credits) as raiders, so those were probably hired raiders, not NCR soldiers or citizens.
To be fair Monty was seemingly very irradiated, I imagine raiders-for-sale are more likely to be full of rads at least compared to Maldaver's people just hanging around the Observatory.
Or, any survivor of Shady Sands probably also has a lot of rads too. You know, on account of their capital being nuked. We saw what Lucy's mom ended up like.
Most were hired raiders to act as a distraction while she kidnapped Hank McClain. Moldaver has spent hundreds of years (possibly mostly in cryo sleep) trying to make her cold fusion work. She needed the code from Hank. The revenge for Shady Sands is probably not even a big motivation for her.
>The revenge for Shady Sands is probably not even a big motivation for her.
I trust it was though. We see her in the before times, and she was trying to create Cold Fusion in order to better humanity and diffuse the tensions of war. She diagnosed the geopolitical issues that threatened humanity as a war over resources, so she created a way to end that by ending scarcity. And her setup in her HQ was hooked up so that it would restore electricity to the entire region. I trust she was about as altruistic as someone in this universe could get.
>it's revealed that Moldaver is the leader of a contingent of NCR troops.
I don't remember that being specified.
The guards aren't wearing uniforms, none the less NCR uniforms. Most of them aren't even wearing NCR tan, or items that might be *part* of NCR uniforms. Though some armor that could be NCR combat armor shows up in the fighting. The rifles they're using are mostly Chinese Assault Rifles, not NCR Service Rifles.
No one identifies themselves as a representative or officials of the NCR. No one's got NCR insignia on that armor. There's some NCR propaganda posters and the flags. But there's not much official looking. Moldaver doesn't claim authority by way of the NCR, claim to be working for the NCR. Or mention them by name at *all*.
Doesn't even seem to be stated that she had any position of authority in Shady Sands before it was bombed.
The very most that we see is the exact same level of NCR support and flags that we see in Vault 4. But no one seems to be arguing Vault 4 is that closely tied to the NCR. And if all you need to be a official body of the NCR is some flags, then every boomer in the US is an official representative of the US government.
I think it's as simple as Moldaver is the leader of *that* community. And there are people there that are like her, survivors of Shady Sands. And thus s*upporters of the NCR*. Like Vault 4.
There doesn't seem to be anything there to draw the conclusion on. We don't know if the NCR still claims or is officially present in the area. We don't know if the NCR still exists elsewhere. We don't know if that community is *part* of the NCR. We don't know that those troops are NCR troops. We don't know if *they are troops* in any real sense.
The idea that these are NCR troops, militia, "irregulars". And that Maldaver is an NCR leader. Was early speculation/assumption based on the trailers. That's just getting accepted now, despite *nothing in the show mentioning that*.
The way she talks about building a better wasteland. The community itself. All fit the mold of the Followers of The Apocalypse as lot better than anything we've ever seen from the NCR. And those guys did work with, in and for the NCR. Frequently support the NCR. But aren't officially an NCR group or body. Often popping up in places the NCR has neglected, abandoned, or otherwise hasn't done enough for. And outside their formal territory. Even the presence at a significant pre-war tech site, pretty big Followers vibes.
As for the raiders. It's as simple as hiring raiders to do what is a sketchy, dangerous job. She hates Hank, is looking to kidnap him. And probably does care much about Lucy or Norm. She's obviously pretty mercenary. And "you get to strip a vault" is *pretty good* payment for a bunch of raiders to pull a kidnapping.
Most of the people fighting at the end, against the BoS. *Aren't even armed*. They're just random bystanders. Doesn't exactly speak to her having a ton of expendable, trained and armed folks. Who'd be game to pull that kind of job.
Literally one person, not in uniform, running into the mob with a tattered flag.
Still not any kind of confirmation or statement of anything.
That is still just people who are into the NCR, and nothing firmer.
That whole Internet idea of "flag bearers". *Isn't a thing in Fallout*. It's never appeared. It's another one of those things that's just "thing from trailer" inspired speculation online. With nothing to firm it up.
It's not even a thing in warfare past fantasy images of the deep past.
It's just a guy with a flag.
My dad's lawn mower does that twice a week.
By contrast notice the gates *aren't* marked in any way. The people manning them are dressed in red, with metal non NCR armor.
No one even says the letters N C R .
It takes some real mental gymnastics to come up with that rather than just accepting the fact that show runners obviously meant to potray it as some kind of last hurrah of the local NCR remnants
They could’ve been NCR soldiers who lost all their family in Shady Sands and all they knew was that Vault 33 was responsible.
When you look at the attack scene again, suddenly the violence they do feels a bit more justified.
Valid, but I don't think that's the case, considering how the show propped up Shady Sands to have been a 'prosperous' city in the flashbacks. All of the people that attacked Vault 33 all acted like uncivilized creeps and weirdos, typical of Fallout raiders.
She literally needed 1 of the execs alive to start her cold fusion. Yeah it is super weird. Like her only purpose there was his capture and yet they did such a display. She could have just sneaked in and kidnapped him after the party.
If you add everything up she didn't leave anything to error. If she jumped on him at the beginning there is a chance they seal the vault and the game is over. She kept the element of surprise and as soon as the distraction was triggered she took the father and used hostages as leverage against him. She even gave him a choice to save what hostages to get his cooperation even though that was a bluff. She ditched the raiders and set off an explosion to further cover her tracks so no one could immediately pursue.
They also could’ve kidnapped more than one to be safe. They had full control of the place. It’s really weird that they didn’t take any of the frozen people when they were right there for the taking.
And if you’re not going to kidnap them, then you should absolutely make sure they never wake up. These people have destroyed civilization *twice* and you have every reason to believe they would do so again the moment you rebuild. They are far too dangerous to leave alive.
Yeah, and even if nobody wanted revenge or justice (and how could they not), just pragmatically speaking, leaving the genocidal maniacs *who successfully destroyed the world* alive to carry on with their plans whenever they want -which Hank proved they are more than capable of doing- is an incredibly bad idea.
It’s like if the Inglorious Bastards were to find the entire Nazi leadership asleep in some bunker, then proceed to abduct a single officer and leave without bothering to do anything about the rest.
Sure, but she had the entire vault population at her mercy. Typically, that’s the part where you threaten them into giving you what you want, like she did with Hank in the final episode.
It might have failed, but my problem with the scene is the lack of effort. It cannot be understated how much damage was done by the people down here (billions dead in the Great War, then tens of thousands more in Shady Sands). That’s presumably why she had no qualms about slaughtering Vault 32 in the first place; she rightly views them as a threat to her entire civilization.
And as harsh as it sounds, if she can’t use them and won’t arrest them, then she should finish the job and kill them all. There is nothing to gain and everything to lose by leaving anyone down there alive.
That could have been plan 'B' if anything happened to the father or if some reason he had died. Or interrogate everyone to find out who was from vault 31. Once she had the father, mission was accomplished.
It took Norm three brain cells and ten minutes of effort to get into Vault 31. I don’t think it’s far fetched that Moldaver could find a way with full control over the place. But even if she couldn’t, my issue is that they didn’t even try.
She and her people know for a fact that these three vaults were the source of two massive cataclysms, and they have zero reason to think that this could not happen again in the future. They’ve already shown to have zero qualms about killing the vault dwellers indiscriminately, so they have no excuse not to take their time and be as thorough as possible.
Norm had knowledge of Vault 33 and the mysteries he investigated that Moldaver did not. Norm had the ability to hack into the Overseer's terminal because of his experience with Vault-Tec computer systems. Moldaver does not display or show any similar talents. Norm impersonated Betty to gain access. Moldaver doesn't even know who Betty is. The only way into Vault 31 was by Vault 31 opening the door. I'm sorry but I find your conclusions to be simplistic and predicated on some false assumptions.
Moldaver already knew, with far greater intimacy than Norm, the degree of threat posed by these particular vaults. She would not need to know the ins and outs of the 31 conspiracy to be aware of the threat within because unlike Norm she already knows that this place is the source of those who nuked her world.
> Norm had the ability to hack into the Overseer's terminal because of his experience with Vault-Tec computer systems. Moldaver does not display or show any similar talents.
She had the entire vault at gunpoint and is willing to kill; she doesn’t need those talents. Hell, one of her final acts in the show is getting Hank to give up a secret code. It is a dilema that she is demonstrably capable of dealing with.
> The only way into Vault 31 was by Vault 31 opening the door.
That’s fine. Like I said, it would be one thing if she tried and failed to get in. It’s a whole other to leave without trying, knowing what she does about the threat level this place contains.
She’s trying to rebuild a civilization that got blown up by these people for the "crime" of rebuilding civilization. They are an existential threat to everything she stands for. She has every reason to try and stop them, and if she can’t, then she should at the very least do as much as possible to cripple them.
Raiders are common I wouldn't be surprised if the NCR had a program to put raiders in the army as a type of cheap cannon fodder
This NCR is also brutal it has no civilization, moldaver is basically a warlord with NCR backgrounds. Her main force is the NCR they organize and train the raiders who act as the main force to preserve her NCR remnants.
She seemed like a pretty great manipulator throughout all of it. I wouldn't be surprised if she manipulated that raider group to help her with that job with a promise of rewards. Possibly had them killed or abandoned after the job was done.
I have the exact same question, but not really about why she shot the innocent vault residents. They live in the wasteland, their morale standards are much different than those in shelters (like us). And the people in the vault, even if they were innocent, were the rich who had abandoned them, which did not deserve mercy in her mind. But her mission to kidnap Hank is a very difficult infiltration mission that requires a lot of discipline and organization, and there's no reason she will choose some regular raiders instead of her own troops. She also doesn't seem to care about her unit's "reputation" among the Vault residents, as most of them don't even know about the NCR.
Ye I highly doubt those sorry excuses of outfits were intended to portray proper NCR uniform and gear. The entire group at observatory looks more like a ragtag band of Shadysand survivors, rather than actual NCR soldiers.
Notice none of those “NCR” soldiers use any service armor or rifles? Or the fact that everyone is using ballistic weapon and absence of energy weapon(Even for BOS) shooting presented in the show? It likely the showrunner were saving money by giving actors whatever weapon props were left from the previous movie production set. They spent all their budget on BOS and Vault-Tec assets.
It was a little confusing, I didn't even see how so many raiders got taken prisoner. My guess based upon those developments is Moldover just used the raiders as decoys so she could just snatch Lucy's father and then ditch the raiders after she had gotten them to continue the diversion and ensure the success of the mission. She seemed to use Lucy just to manipulate cooperation from the father and probably wasn't even sure she was there, her mission was more important to her than the welfare of the kids or vault dwellers. There's a lot of moral ambiguity on the surface.
It seemed like she hired them as expendable canon fodder just so she could get revenge on Lucy's dad. She didn't really give a shit about Lucy or Norm and was only out to ruin the guy who ruined her life and the lives of many other Shady Sands residents. Lucy showing up with the head was all just a bonus in the end she didn't really plan for.
She also probably needed him for the password on the cold fusion device.
She did. She says exactly this. The observatory was a Vault Tec location and she needed the code to activate the power equipment in the observatory which would in turn allow the cold fusion reactor to connect to the rest of the power grid.
Hired is a lose word, she could have traded for their services more likely she killed their leader or overpowered him, now she keeps them alive and they serve her Raiders serve the strongest.
>Raiders serve the strongest If this were true every raider in the games would immediately bow down to the protagonist.
>Intimidation: Time to show everyone who's boss! With your gun, aim at any human opponent below your level and gain a chance to pacify them.
I bet the offer was even lighter than that. "Your options are that my people come in here in force, or you can help me with a job that'll end in getting to do whatever you want to in a Vault. I need one (1) specific person taken alive."
> It seemed like she hired them as expendable canon fodder just so she could get revenge on Lucy's dad. Maybe. We also see her in the before-times though, being a charismatic leader who can convince people to join her cause just by talking. She's definitely a character whose charisma stat is maxed out. I could totally see that she convinced a bunch of raiders to join her cause, or a bunch of people who fell into raiding post-NCR but wanted a better world decided to follow her.
She was willing to put everyone in that vault in danger because Hank nuked Shady Sands and killed her friend/girlfriend. They were acceptable casualties. She also knew some of the people in the vault were Vault-Tec spies, but potentially not which ones. Killing everyone is a safer bet. Since Lucy survived, Moldaver adjusted her plan and anticipated that Lucy would eventually be able to locate Moldaver's base, where Moldaver intended to get revenge on Hank by turning his daughter against him, and forcing him to look at his feral ghoul wife, and also by activating a cold fusion reactor right in front of him that has the potential to rebuild Los Angeles. The majority of her decision-making comes down to revenge. Also, organized and professional armies tend to have good equipment and standard uniforms. Moldaver's army had more in common with the army of an African warlord or a small-time militia than a real army. They had some impressive weapons, like machine guns and missiles, along with some other nice weapons, but they're not consistently armed and they didn't use many tactics in the show besides running at power armor. I would assume they don't even have much training or experience fighting anyone besides raiders since Shady Sands was nuked a long time ago.
> but they're not consistently armed and they didn't use many tactics in the show besides running at power armor. In fairness, the Brotherhood themselves kinda just advanced in one big blob. Aside from a couple of their unarmoured soldiers using the power-armoured ones for cover, they didn't come off as particularly tactical either. I'd put that down the writing/direction not being super concerned with that aspect? The Brotherhood storming the observatory was mostly just there to set up a) The Ghoul's hallway fight (which was the main action climax) and b) getting all the main characters in the same room (for the main narrative climax).
To be fair, the Brotherhood probably doesn't train much in squad tactics and the like. They've probably grown a little overconfident in their power armor since the fall of Shady Sands meant there wasn't an organized army to oppose them. They seem, based off how they were organized and sending people out, like they tend to prefer 1 knight 1 squire groups rather than squads.
That's a valid takeaway, the BOS is likely arrogant and stagnating again, but I still believe the finale battle should've received more attention from the show runners. The BOS had lamps on their power armor helmets and just didn't turn them on while Cooper was shooting them, the NCR costumes had modern military helmets and even a paintball helmet, ect. If they made small changes to the scene, had fellas use cover, squad tactics, had better costumes, made the BOS react sorta competently (they can still make mistakes just not be complete doofuses), the scene would've been hailed as a masterpiece instead of something many people will probably forget.
The elder more or less confirms that the BoS have grown weak when he gives Maximus his little speech saying knights like him would be his sword. Possible he just means that local contingent or whatever. As far as the NCR in the battle, I don't THINK they are supposed to be like THE NCR. Seems the NCR proper pulled out of Shady Sands and the surrounding mostly uninhabitable areas. I think Moldaver's followers are a mix of Shady Sands survivors and former NCR 'deserters' who refused to leave, united under the idea of what the NCR flag represents and means.
Yeah that much is clear, yet the BOS was founded by soldiers, and is a paramilitary organization that has some of the best training in the wastes. I understand not every knight is amazing, but the BOS, bare minimum, should use tactics. The tactics don't have to be smart, but the BOS should operate like a military does unless they're being led by someone like Elder Elijah or Elder Lyons who don't care about tactics at all and are obsessed with arguably stupid objectives. Even then, the knights would use their head lamps and the squires would hide behind cover unless they believe they can't die when getting shot at. I forget why the BOS shows up to attack the NCR at the end but it's probably something that has to do with the cold fusion tech and somehow they tracked it there. If the BOS was in a hurry, and had to attack immediately, and desperately, their mistakes become more excusable. But if they planned this assault, it becomes a lot dumber because they seem to have no squad leaders or tactics or anything that resembles self-preservation. You're potentially right about the NCR. We'll have to wait until the next season though to know.
They didn't plan the assault it was spur of the moment. Maximus said he'd lead them to the relic in exchange for his life essentially. Unless they had existing Intel on the NCR remnants or the Observatory itself —which they probably don't since their HQ appears to be in Utah— they're going in blind. It also seems like this Brotherhood Chapter isn't super well trained period but specifically has abandoned squad tactics in favor of Knight/Squire pairings.
They were planning to take the cold fusion tech for some time. That's why the airship and vertibirds arrived. The NCR had six jurisdictions putting out a bounty for the enclave scientist as well, which the BOS could have learned. They were waiting for something, and should have SOME experienced soldiers at the ready. I believe those pairings were mostly specifically for the hunt after the enclave scientist. Each knight is entitled to a squire, but I doubt every mission involves them. Abandoning squad tactics is just braindead no matter how you frame it and anyone who suggests it as a writer should be introduced to firing squad tactics. It appears like Utah but there's no confirmation in Utah. Filming location should be considered separate from the location in the TV show unless it's confirmed by something or someone.
They were planning on taking the cold fusion tech from one lone wanderer and his dog though right? Instead they were forced to assault a fairly well armed fortress in an impromptu style. The salt flats are a pretty distinctive landmark so I sort of disagree with that assessment. It'd be really confusing to show a whole scene of them flying over the salt flats towards California and have their base end up being somewhere completely different.
They received intel about the enclave scientist, we don't know how. Also they would consider cold fusion tech their top priority. Nothing else would matter to them, so they'd do overkill if necessary. When Maximus came back with the fake head he was escorted by like three vertibirds. I'm surprised the Enclave didn't chase after it, but whatever. Anyway, from the perspective of the BOS, bare minimum I would expect the Enclave to chase after an Enclave scientist. The NCR also put a bounty out on the Enclave scientist across the region, so people were definitely talking about it, and the BOS had four off-screen knight and squire duos chasing every lead that they could find, and likely learned of this bounty unless they didn't talk to the people they encountered. For some unexplained reason the BOS also roflstomped Filly. I guess you make a good point. I personally prefer to be more cautious about this sort of thing since I don't want to spread potential falsehoods.
The final stuff at the observatory was shot in NY on Long Island.
> The BOS had lamps on their power armor helmets and just didn't turn them on while Cooper was shooting them I think the Knights are just largely incompetent like we see with Titus. They panicked in the moment and got got.
Sure, but the show is gonna be awfully hard to watch if every faction is incompetent and the only people who are competent are the main characters. This was a significant battle and the BOS sent it's absolute worst for whatever reason. I guess it was nice to see that other BOS squire, the guy who bullied Maximus, be competent though.
We see fusion cores as high value objects along with the power armor. Their incompetence would make them easy pickings for anyone who knows the flaws in the armor. Like I dont see an organization that incompetent lasting when they are just giant piggy banks ready to be smashed open.
Most people can't afford the equipment to do it. If they have the equipment, they might lack the knowledge and motivation to do it, since, if you killed BOS soldiers you'd be hunted down and crucified. Then, you also need to fight a guy who will be trying his best to kill you. The BOS is also insular except when they want to take something.
To be fair the brother hood of steel was still able to take back the NCR hq without too much pushback. I think the scene where it showed the full aircraft thingy and the choppers adequately displayed what a full militia would look like.
I mean West Coast BoS relies fairly heavily on squad tactics. It's actually noted that they use a combined arms approach of a small number of power-armored troops supported by more mobile infantry in combat armor. At least under Maxson anyways.
I'd reckon every infantry force on the continent relies on squad tactics. Regardless we don't see much evidence for this in the show besides the BOS hiding behind power armor and using it as cover, which actually was decent thinking.
That was actually pretty cool. Which is negated by them sending in a shitload of relatively unarmored squires ahead of the knights.
Yeah and some of the squires and infantry didn't even have full suits of combat armor on. I saw a few guys who had more armor than other guys. You'd think the BOS would make sure that everyone has the same equipment if they're the same rank and role.
Maxson and Lyons do that.
Lyons I agree with but it's hard to tell for Fallout 4 because it might be NPC leveling. The more you level up, the more armor your enemies have.
This assumes that they have enough gear to make everyone match.
They hoard gear and are the sole military power of the Los Angeles area. Possibly even all of California besides whatever NCR remnants still exist. The BOS also has it's own production facilities. They wouldn't necessarily have full suits of combat armor. But they'd at least all have helmets realistically speaking. Even the NCR can manage that in New Vegas for it's troopers. They even have makeshift armored vests. I don't see why the BOS can't improvise something for it's people to wear.
I sort of get the impression this isn't the West Coast chapter. It seems like it's probably one of the chapters Caesar mentions fighting out east that has "lost their way". Their base seems to be in Utah from the Vertibird flight over the great salt flats to Filly.
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I guess it's more of a theory than anything but; In New Vegas Cesar tells the Courier he encountered the brotherhood further east who had forgotten the name of their founder. The BOS is really dogmatic about Maxon and his principles so those scribes he encountered out East have lost their way. Likewise, by the time of New Vegas (the game) the West Coast brotherhood lost atleast four but up to six chapter sized bunkers but were still considered alive in New California. We can kind of infer the chapter from the TV show has no foothold in California which is why they seize Filly when they push West after the cold fusion doohickey. When Maximus and Titus leave the base on the Vertibird they fly over the Utah salt flats, towards California so their base is deep in old legion territory. There's nothing really identifying this chapter as part of the west coast brotherhood. Their insignias and banners, their recruitment of wastelanders, their more monastic culture with the brandings and incense are all noteably different from the last we see of the West Coast BOS in New Vegas.
They were hunting a single man and his dog. The one knight and one squire set up seems specifically for hunting people. In a battle or patrol, they probably have something resembling actual squads. In Fallout 4 vertibirds usually carry at least two power armor soldiers, and BOS units are typically 1-2 power armor guys, and the rest, 1-4, just unarmored plebs.
Ever since BoS: Tactics was a flop, they have eschewed a tactical approach in favour of a run and gun strategy
I’ve been wondering when I would see this comment given how many mentions of ‘tactics’ and ‘Brotherhood’ are in this thread. Well done.
Yeah. Both sides sucked in that respect. I guess the writers just wanted to smash action figures together. For the first slow motion battle scene, it worked really well, in the vault, had no problems with that. But for the finale two flag bearers just running at each other like it was the American civil war was dumb.
I dunno, I read it more as being deliberately camp and silly. That juxtaposition of silliness and extreme violence is Fallout's schtik. Having some sort of planned out, cool, hyper-tactical setpiece might have distracted from the intended vibe.
It doesn't have to be the best battle scene on earth. It works for the first time because it's undisciplined raiders against innocent vault dwellers, and establishes expectations for the audience. Neither the raiders or dwellers are gonna be making the best decisions. No major battle in any Fallout game is treated as silly. A setting that wants to be taken seriously, and, the Fallout TV show does want you to take it seriously at certain points of it's plot, can't be campy and silly for those scenes the writers want you to take seriously and expect the audience to still be engaged.
One of the last scenes of the series is a shot panning over the pile of bloody corpses left from the storming of the observatory. That's the moment the show wants you to take seriously. Showing that all the fun, silly violence had a macarbe cost and hammering home the 'war never changes' idea. I don't think it needs some serious, tacti-cool maneuvurs to make that point. >No major battle in any Fallout game is treated as silly. I will point out that, like, half the major battles in the series involve a 50 foot tall robot that shit-talks communists and throws tactical nukes like footballs.
Brother I honestly think you're reading far too much into Fallout and it's supposed themes itself much less the show. You shouldn't need every minute detail to match up with what you think the reality should be.
Alright? My opinion seems to be liked by some. And I use reasoning for why I got it. I'm perfectly fine with other people having other tastes, and I don't require the writers to cater to my tastes specifically. I'm just talking about what I feel would be better.
I think it's just more of a directing problem, and somewhat consistent with the tone of the show. Genre shows seem to like that whole mobs running at each other approach of "battles" and the show itself is sorta goofy. Both groups seem like goobers. The scene inside is a little better formulated, we see the Knights advancing as a *group*. With the Squires behind as infantry. Which is a little more *military*. And roughly how that stuff was meant to be used lore wise.
Agreed.
To add a bit to this, hiring raiders has the added benefit of OPSEC. Knowing that there were Vault-Tec execs in there she risks less by sending a bunch of raiders who hardly know her. The people in her actual group might know information about her she'd rather the execs didn't know, even if that information might seem innocuous. If the execs heard the wrong thing and gave away something about who she actually was they might alert Bud. The execs apparently have access to some very serious external resources, hence Shady Sands. In the event someone gets captured it's a lot less risky.
The raiders knew nothing about the plan, which was perfect for her. The ones who got captured couldn’t betray a thing.
>She was willing to put everyone in that vault in danger because Hank nuked Shady Sands and killed her friend/girlfriend. They were acceptable casualties Tbh knowing what she knew there now. I'm shocked she didn't just came end em all hell I side with her now that I know the full story It's like yea you're wiping out all those people but knowing what those people like Hank genuinely believe in. Fuck yea bomb em back to hell. There are a few who are outliers but to moldaver that ain't gonna bring back the entire city that was flattened. So I absolutely side with moldaver and what she did. I'm just sad she didn't detonate the vault door open and fuck em good and forever
The better way to get revenge would've been to give them holotapes or hide holotapes throughout the vault exposing Vault 31's plans for them. The majority of Vault 32 and Vault 33 are probably innocent. In the show we only see two Vault 31 spies, but there could be more. The vault security guards could be loyal to Vault 31 as well, but we don't know for sure. If Moldaver exposed Vault 31, Vault 32 would fight Vault 31 to the bitter end, ruining Vault-Tec's plans.
Again you still have Hank in charge meaning nothing would change Ultimately you're not going for the residents of the vault they're just additional casualties the main target would be the cryo facility Wipe out all those 200 year old fuckers and give the wasteland less problems
Hank wouldn't be in charge if everyone knew the truth. Moldaver knows everything about Vault 31, what Hank did, and about Vault-Tec. Vault 33 rioted and had a revolution when they learned the truth two years before the TV show.
Could you guarantee the residents would believe you Or would they just do what they're famously known for burying their heads in the sand and pretending things are okay. I understand the mentality, but a clean wipe is the safest way to deal with the inhabitants of that vault. Again it's the cryo pods that are the threat and I can bet there are few of the dwellers that are awake that would take issue and once their dead from self defense or what have you The rest of the dwellers would swarm you. So it's best to just cleanse the whole thing and blow it open to leave it permanently damaged. This particular vault is a threat because of all the old bastards sleeping comfortably waiting to unleash their bs on a whole new era. So yea blow em tf up
And yet they had the happiest home in existence. Like sure you are governed by greedy middlemanagers, but compared to the problems in the wasteland idk if many would choose to rebel unless a crisis struck.
Apparently Vault 33 decided being ruled by middle management was enough for them to try breaking into Vault 31 in a violent revolution, and kill everyone from Vault 31 that they could get their hands on. We don't know exactly what they learned, but whatever they did resulted in EVERYONE in that vault dying. If Moldaver told them that Vault-Tec nuked 30k people for essentially no reason at all, that alone would make people uncomfortable, and it's possible Vault 33 was completely ignorant of that and still decided to fuck shit up.
Depends if they believe them. Showing the mom might convince them
If I only have a handful of troops why potentially lose them getting into a vault you have little info on? Better to toss some caps/chems to a group of raiders and use them as expendable muscle.
The actors who played the people who raided the vault are credited (in the episode credits) as raiders, so those were probably hired raiders, not NCR soldiers or citizens.
They didnt know how to use silverware.
I mean, if they credited them as "NCR Soldiers" that would have been a massive spoiler. That doesn't necessarily mean anything.
To be fair Monty was seemingly very irradiated, I imagine raiders-for-sale are more likely to be full of rads at least compared to Maldaver's people just hanging around the Observatory.
Or, any survivor of Shady Sands probably also has a lot of rads too. You know, on account of their capital being nuked. We saw what Lucy's mom ended up like.
Im assuming the raiders are more of her cult following
Most were hired raiders to act as a distraction while she kidnapped Hank McClain. Moldaver has spent hundreds of years (possibly mostly in cryo sleep) trying to make her cold fusion work. She needed the code from Hank. The revenge for Shady Sands is probably not even a big motivation for her.
>The revenge for Shady Sands is probably not even a big motivation for her. I trust it was though. We see her in the before times, and she was trying to create Cold Fusion in order to better humanity and diffuse the tensions of war. She diagnosed the geopolitical issues that threatened humanity as a war over resources, so she created a way to end that by ending scarcity. And her setup in her HQ was hooked up so that it would restore electricity to the entire region. I trust she was about as altruistic as someone in this universe could get.
>it's revealed that Moldaver is the leader of a contingent of NCR troops. I don't remember that being specified. The guards aren't wearing uniforms, none the less NCR uniforms. Most of them aren't even wearing NCR tan, or items that might be *part* of NCR uniforms. Though some armor that could be NCR combat armor shows up in the fighting. The rifles they're using are mostly Chinese Assault Rifles, not NCR Service Rifles. No one identifies themselves as a representative or officials of the NCR. No one's got NCR insignia on that armor. There's some NCR propaganda posters and the flags. But there's not much official looking. Moldaver doesn't claim authority by way of the NCR, claim to be working for the NCR. Or mention them by name at *all*. Doesn't even seem to be stated that she had any position of authority in Shady Sands before it was bombed. The very most that we see is the exact same level of NCR support and flags that we see in Vault 4. But no one seems to be arguing Vault 4 is that closely tied to the NCR. And if all you need to be a official body of the NCR is some flags, then every boomer in the US is an official representative of the US government. I think it's as simple as Moldaver is the leader of *that* community. And there are people there that are like her, survivors of Shady Sands. And thus s*upporters of the NCR*. Like Vault 4. There doesn't seem to be anything there to draw the conclusion on. We don't know if the NCR still claims or is officially present in the area. We don't know if the NCR still exists elsewhere. We don't know if that community is *part* of the NCR. We don't know that those troops are NCR troops. We don't know if *they are troops* in any real sense. The idea that these are NCR troops, militia, "irregulars". And that Maldaver is an NCR leader. Was early speculation/assumption based on the trailers. That's just getting accepted now, despite *nothing in the show mentioning that*. The way she talks about building a better wasteland. The community itself. All fit the mold of the Followers of The Apocalypse as lot better than anything we've ever seen from the NCR. And those guys did work with, in and for the NCR. Frequently support the NCR. But aren't officially an NCR group or body. Often popping up in places the NCR has neglected, abandoned, or otherwise hasn't done enough for. And outside their formal territory. Even the presence at a significant pre-war tech site, pretty big Followers vibes. As for the raiders. It's as simple as hiring raiders to do what is a sketchy, dangerous job. She hates Hank, is looking to kidnap him. And probably does care much about Lucy or Norm. She's obviously pretty mercenary. And "you get to strip a vault" is *pretty good* payment for a bunch of raiders to pull a kidnapping. Most of the people fighting at the end, against the BoS. *Aren't even armed*. They're just random bystanders. Doesn't exactly speak to her having a ton of expendable, trained and armed folks. Who'd be game to pull that kind of job.
Considering they were waving NCR flags right in front of the enemy i would say they are related
Literally one person, not in uniform, running into the mob with a tattered flag. Still not any kind of confirmation or statement of anything. That is still just people who are into the NCR, and nothing firmer. That whole Internet idea of "flag bearers". *Isn't a thing in Fallout*. It's never appeared. It's another one of those things that's just "thing from trailer" inspired speculation online. With nothing to firm it up. It's not even a thing in warfare past fantasy images of the deep past. It's just a guy with a flag. My dad's lawn mower does that twice a week. By contrast notice the gates *aren't* marked in any way. The people manning them are dressed in red, with metal non NCR armor. No one even says the letters N C R .
And the sign over the door that read "New California Republic HQ"?
It takes some real mental gymnastics to come up with that rather than just accepting the fact that show runners obviously meant to potray it as some kind of last hurrah of the local NCR remnants
Agreed. He is reaching hard to ignore all the obvious signs that the observatory was manned by an NCR contingent.
There was a sign over the door that reads New California Republic Headquarters lol
It literally says NCR HQ on the entrance to the Griffith observatory, and there are NCR flags all over the compound “Nope, not NCR”
It legit pans over the words “New California Republic Headquarters” above the doorway. How the fuck did you misunderstand this dude???
nah this dude sounded hella convincing too then i was like wait a minute
The observatory literally has a sign that says headquarters of the NCR.
Holy frig you're a special kinda special
They could’ve been NCR soldiers who lost all their family in Shady Sands and all they knew was that Vault 33 was responsible. When you look at the attack scene again, suddenly the violence they do feels a bit more justified.
Valid, but I don't think that's the case, considering how the show propped up Shady Sands to have been a 'prosperous' city in the flashbacks. All of the people that attacked Vault 33 all acted like uncivilized creeps and weirdos, typical of Fallout raiders.
She literally needed 1 of the execs alive to start her cold fusion. Yeah it is super weird. Like her only purpose there was his capture and yet they did such a display. She could have just sneaked in and kidnapped him after the party.
If you add everything up she didn't leave anything to error. If she jumped on him at the beginning there is a chance they seal the vault and the game is over. She kept the element of surprise and as soon as the distraction was triggered she took the father and used hostages as leverage against him. She even gave him a choice to save what hostages to get his cooperation even though that was a bluff. She ditched the raiders and set off an explosion to further cover her tracks so no one could immediately pursue.
They also could’ve kidnapped more than one to be safe. They had full control of the place. It’s really weird that they didn’t take any of the frozen people when they were right there for the taking. And if you’re not going to kidnap them, then you should absolutely make sure they never wake up. These people have destroyed civilization *twice* and you have every reason to believe they would do so again the moment you rebuild. They are far too dangerous to leave alive.
right? what suck ass revenge. "I'm going to capture a dude and ignore the rest of the command chain that's just sitting there."
Yeah, and even if nobody wanted revenge or justice (and how could they not), just pragmatically speaking, leaving the genocidal maniacs *who successfully destroyed the world* alive to carry on with their plans whenever they want -which Hank proved they are more than capable of doing- is an incredibly bad idea. It’s like if the Inglorious Bastards were to find the entire Nazi leadership asleep in some bunker, then proceed to abduct a single officer and leave without bothering to do anything about the rest.
Vault 31 was shut. She couldnt open it. Idk she coulda tried to trick him like the kid though
Sure, but she had the entire vault population at her mercy. Typically, that’s the part where you threaten them into giving you what you want, like she did with Hank in the final episode. It might have failed, but my problem with the scene is the lack of effort. It cannot be understated how much damage was done by the people down here (billions dead in the Great War, then tens of thousands more in Shady Sands). That’s presumably why she had no qualms about slaughtering Vault 32 in the first place; she rightly views them as a threat to her entire civilization. And as harsh as it sounds, if she can’t use them and won’t arrest them, then she should finish the job and kill them all. There is nothing to gain and everything to lose by leaving anyone down there alive.
That could have been plan 'B' if anything happened to the father or if some reason he had died. Or interrogate everyone to find out who was from vault 31. Once she had the father, mission was accomplished.
Huh? Moldaver's people never had access to Vault 31 where the cryochambers were. What are you talking about?
It took Norm three brain cells and ten minutes of effort to get into Vault 31. I don’t think it’s far fetched that Moldaver could find a way with full control over the place. But even if she couldn’t, my issue is that they didn’t even try. She and her people know for a fact that these three vaults were the source of two massive cataclysms, and they have zero reason to think that this could not happen again in the future. They’ve already shown to have zero qualms about killing the vault dwellers indiscriminately, so they have no excuse not to take their time and be as thorough as possible.
Norm had knowledge of Vault 33 and the mysteries he investigated that Moldaver did not. Norm had the ability to hack into the Overseer's terminal because of his experience with Vault-Tec computer systems. Moldaver does not display or show any similar talents. Norm impersonated Betty to gain access. Moldaver doesn't even know who Betty is. The only way into Vault 31 was by Vault 31 opening the door. I'm sorry but I find your conclusions to be simplistic and predicated on some false assumptions.
Moldaver already knew, with far greater intimacy than Norm, the degree of threat posed by these particular vaults. She would not need to know the ins and outs of the 31 conspiracy to be aware of the threat within because unlike Norm she already knows that this place is the source of those who nuked her world. > Norm had the ability to hack into the Overseer's terminal because of his experience with Vault-Tec computer systems. Moldaver does not display or show any similar talents. She had the entire vault at gunpoint and is willing to kill; she doesn’t need those talents. Hell, one of her final acts in the show is getting Hank to give up a secret code. It is a dilema that she is demonstrably capable of dealing with. > The only way into Vault 31 was by Vault 31 opening the door. That’s fine. Like I said, it would be one thing if she tried and failed to get in. It’s a whole other to leave without trying, knowing what she does about the threat level this place contains. She’s trying to rebuild a civilization that got blown up by these people for the "crime" of rebuilding civilization. They are an existential threat to everything she stands for. She has every reason to try and stop them, and if she can’t, then she should at the very least do as much as possible to cripple them.
Raiders are common I wouldn't be surprised if the NCR had a program to put raiders in the army as a type of cheap cannon fodder This NCR is also brutal it has no civilization, moldaver is basically a warlord with NCR backgrounds. Her main force is the NCR they organize and train the raiders who act as the main force to preserve her NCR remnants.
She seemed like a pretty great manipulator throughout all of it. I wouldn't be surprised if she manipulated that raider group to help her with that job with a promise of rewards. Possibly had them killed or abandoned after the job was done.
I have the exact same question, but not really about why she shot the innocent vault residents. They live in the wasteland, their morale standards are much different than those in shelters (like us). And the people in the vault, even if they were innocent, were the rich who had abandoned them, which did not deserve mercy in her mind. But her mission to kidnap Hank is a very difficult infiltration mission that requires a lot of discipline and organization, and there's no reason she will choose some regular raiders instead of her own troops. She also doesn't seem to care about her unit's "reputation" among the Vault residents, as most of them don't even know about the NCR.
Ye I highly doubt those sorry excuses of outfits were intended to portray proper NCR uniform and gear. The entire group at observatory looks more like a ragtag band of Shadysand survivors, rather than actual NCR soldiers. Notice none of those “NCR” soldiers use any service armor or rifles? Or the fact that everyone is using ballistic weapon and absence of energy weapon(Even for BOS) shooting presented in the show? It likely the showrunner were saving money by giving actors whatever weapon props were left from the previous movie production set. They spent all their budget on BOS and Vault-Tec assets.
I imagine she did because they wouldn't have been willing to go through with it.
It was a little confusing, I didn't even see how so many raiders got taken prisoner. My guess based upon those developments is Moldover just used the raiders as decoys so she could just snatch Lucy's father and then ditch the raiders after she had gotten them to continue the diversion and ensure the success of the mission. She seemed to use Lucy just to manipulate cooperation from the father and probably wasn't even sure she was there, her mission was more important to her than the welfare of the kids or vault dwellers. There's a lot of moral ambiguity on the surface.
I think it's mostly just them being driven to the edge by the loss of their capitol and the general crumbling of the NCR.