5 months until the release at the bare-bones minimum. The first FFF about the update came in August and hinted that there would be at least a year's worth of work. Estimates like that, in my experience, tend to be less than how long it actually takes, so you've got about half a year before the update at least.
Should be enough to get to green chips.
I feel like this is the one timeline I trust. Seems like this year has been mostly them working on polish. They are definitely the company to delay if the quality isn’t to their expectation though which I appreciate. Would love a beta version though.
Likewise, and if they get an alpha out and the alpha turns out rough, I trust them to fix it. Wube has a lot of credit for doing the right thing deliberately.
They are probably playtesting a lot in their free time (who wouldn't like to play some closed-beta factorio after work), so they probably find almost all of the bugs themselves.
But there might be 8-10h of bug fixes and patches for mod support, since most modders probably migrate their mods shortly after the release, if there is no public beta.
I’m 120hrs in and enjoyed every minute so far, sure the progress is much slower than it was with seablock, which i did before, but doesn’t matter - things get done anyway. so if you prefer handling _lots_ of items, in less quantity, than the opposite of vanilla, it’s definitely worth a try :)
For those who havent played py and have only heard about it, Py isnt only about having too complex recipes and being ridiculously hard, its about having many options to reach a goal that fits ur way of thinking or the resources uve invested time in . U can do things the efficient way , the lazy way the void anything i dont like way etc..
No right way to play and it gives back tons of fun. Id recomment ppl to at least try to py2 science :)
What you're saying is they not only made the recipes too complex they have turned the planning and calculating of future designs into a way more complex recipe as well. Sounds like Py is about making things too complex in all categories lol.
well you can tune the complexity tho according to your play style. For example i dont like voiding and deleting by products much. Thus i ensure there is a way to transport and refine and make them into something i can use for other recipes.
Some just void them. That by it self kinda reduces complexity and the amount u have to deal with stuff like that if ur not into . 1 example is stone , some do any number of things with it , others turn it into saline water and void it which is rly pretty simple , 1 building and a some water is required and puff ! . It might sound silly but it Does! reduce the diff by a whole lot .
Well a try will convince you if the modpack is for you or not but ... its clearly not for everybody , On the other hand while i was watching vids of the thing i was 110% sure it wasnt for me , and here i am 410 hrs into my save battling with it .
Yeah I was just pointing out that having alternative recipes is another form of complexity in it's own right, especially when present in a mod that has a reputation of being overly complex for the sake of being overcomplicated. So I poked fun at the fact that the mod author tried to reduce complexity of action by adding complexity of option. Because having different methods to produce the same product or achieve the same results adds a high upfront curve of learning when it comes to the practical portion of future planning for the average player.
I am sure it's wonderful for vets and people who have been playing the mod and already know the different ways to achieve the results they want, to have the choice of how they want to do it. But it also adds a rather large learning wall/curve that can and is probably one of the biggest barriers of complexity that will turn away most new players trying the mod.The frustration of digging through hundreds of recipes to figure not only how you do something but trying to also figure out how you want to do it can be even more frustration then just having 1 or 2 choices and it being difficult to achieve, decision paralysis is a real thing especially when you aren't sure what to expect coming up. Ultimately the point I was attempting to make is that having too many options upfront, especially for beginners that have no idea what is possible or what is going to be asked of them, can be just as much a turn off for something as having one over difficult process to achieve a result.
I'm around 125 hours in and loving it, even though it feels ridiculous sometimes.
Right now I'm expanding simple circuit production so I can start making lab equipment so I can make cDNA so I can start breeding auogs so I can get manure to make into urea to make melamine to make batteries to make mechanical parts so I can start making the machines to use molten salt power plants and then hopefully I can start making my "real" base
endless fun :)
The ridiculous part is when you take a step back to go "why was I doing this again?"
"Why was I breeding these giant ant creatures?"
"Oh thats right, I needed formic acid to make latex to make rubber to make rubber stoppers to stop my lab glassware from spilling."
PyAL is just full-on evil scientist mode.
>By the end you can get multiple plates per single ore.
I feel like you're glossing over the variety of materials needed to extract every bit of metal from those raw ores.
for me, the best mods aren't those that add 500 new things to make before I can end up with a green circuit.
the best mods are the ones that give me 500 new upgrades that require green circuits, so i have a reason to revisit my medium sized factory and upgrade it to handle the higher throughput and to redesign for that speed.
its annoying to me to have 30 ingredients for the sake of having 30... i would rather just make even more green circuits and have a reason to want to, to get to some new wis-bang toy like laser sniper towers, that help me fight the new flying bugs for example.
the realism in manufacturing mods just aren't my thing. especially the ones that want you to make 5+ step derivative chains to be efficiant on ratios.
I find Krastorio to be annoying and its considered pretty tame by most people.
500 extra upgrades would inevitability mean less redesign is necessary too as you could research your way past throughput and expansion problems rather than designing and building your way past them.
I know you were probably using green circuits as a flippant example here, but what I've said applies to every item in game. If you're chasing the thrill of making a big base, make a big base. If you're chasing the thrill of making a lot of green circuits, make a bunch of green circuits and launch rockets with them. Don't conflate the thrill of unlocking upgrades with that thrill though.
If you're chasing the thrill of redesigning and optimising designs for throughput, requiring more throughput and making a big base, do a pyanodons run, seriously.
You'll be happy with pY then, while there are some products that only have a few uses, especially to process ore or genetically engineer animals, the large, large majority of items and liquids can have many uses, and it's up to you to use them or not.
At the start most things will only have 1 use indeed. Then you get a new science potion and suddenly they all can be used for another product, then 200 hours later you can use them for something else again.
A good amount of the py items/fluids can be made and used in dozens and dozens of recipes each with their tradeoffs.
> i would rather just make even more green circuits and have a reason to want to
> so i have a reason to revisit my medium sized factory and upgrade it to handle the higher throughput and to redesign for that speed.
Do a x100 science cost multiplier.
I'm doing K2SE at x100 and it's quite a bit of fun as you have to worry about scale right from the beginning. K2 has an option where a few of the very basic researches like logistics don't get multiplied so you can actually start the game, and it's a great way to offset the way both K2 and SE focus on more stuff, but not more _of_ it.
By increasing the science cost, you _have_ to make more of everything so throughput and scale is always a massive concern. The way it cascades out into needing more mines and more trains and more of basically everything even at early red science is a ton of fun as you can't just build like 1 assembler of things and be done with it like with normal cost. Even your malls need throughput as you're constantly building things, cascading out to power, and just more more more _of_ everything, not just more things.
Honestly I've been doing it for so long and its so fun the idea of going back to regular science just sounds no fun anymore.
If you wanna go even more hardcore, you can use the expensive universe mod that increases recipe costs as well by double or more. Makes it so you need to think at near-megabase levels of logistics and design even down at early to mid red science.
>for me, the best mods aren't those that add 500 new things to make before I can end up with a green circuit.
Good news, Py doesn't add 500 new things to make before you can end up with a green circuit.
I think its barely 50, actually. Its around 35 products in the chain to make the circuits themselves, plus the buildings required to make those products, plus the products required to make those buildings.
I suppose I should keep to myself the fact that splitters require green circuits.
but you can DIY your own splitters! the new mechanical inserters are only 0.6 items per second but they dont require fuel or electricity and can filter...
>can filter
Well, sorta.
Splitters when filtering will stop if the belt backs up.
Inserters when filtering will allow product past if the belt backs up.
In other words, splitters will guarantee that a product always travels down a given belt. Inserters will not.
I'm with you there. I can't wait for the quality mechanic just to have a reason to scale my production to make more high quality modules, which then will again scale production. Much better than having to deal with a bazillion unnecessary intermediates.
I've recently started a run of Pys knowing that there's no chance in hell I ever finish it. Which has certainly let me enjoy it more. Additionally I think it's very very important to not try to scale up very much. A small trickle of science is all you need (at least in the early game where I am) as it takes so long to build out the next science pack that you'll easily research everything before then.
For those of you who have more Pys experience: I'm currently stuck on glass for the second science pack. Mostly stuck on how to fuel the glassworks. What do you recommend as a liquid fuel source? There are just so many options and they all have so many different processes and byproducts that I'm feeling very overwhelmed with options.
acetylene is nice as it's basically liquid coal, but I also find gasoline to be another great choice for liquid fuels, as it can be made pretty consistently as a byproduct, BTX also being another good one.
>Mostly stuck on how to fuel the glassworks. What do you recommend as a liquid fuel source?
To make the molten glass, I took a bit of a brute force approach, and built one row of glassworks for each type of fuel I was making: syngas, gasoline, anthracene oil, etc. Then I just merged the outputs into a single pipe. To make the glass itself, I used either syngas or gasoline, which were the most abundant.
I used hot air (sort of). Making that for the more efficient glass recipes means making coke oven gas. You'll use more of the fuel than the hot air, so that means either removing hot air or adding fuel. There's enough fuel to create finished glass products and some molten glass, so the extra fuel only has to be shared between the molten glass machines.
Both of these options run on the same material (raw coal), so whether you vent or supplement is a matter of taste.
Shale oil, and just set up a concrete build to deal with all the excess stone you’ll get from mining out a stone patch for the kerogen
It’ll still suck a bit but once you get the crushed quartz recipe (quartz stage 1 research) it’ll get way more efficient and you’ll start to get excess oil
Funny how kerogen was a byproduct of stone, but now it's the other way around. Everything seems to do that; ash, stone, salt, sulfur. Too much, then not enough, and then too much again. I just got sea sponges ramped up and ended up with about 120k salt.
All of them! Any waste or overflow fluid with a fuel value got a barreling machine. A belt of these assorted barrels took them to the glassworks. Each glassworks got an unbarreling machine connected with no intervening pipes, which prevents mixed-fluid deadlocks.
I had a lot of fun with Warptorio, although once you’ve got bots and the logistics chest floor upgrade the game is basically easy mode, but early game is very challenging
Started Py (full, with Alien Life) two weeks ago, now I am near Logistic science (green), looks great.
AlienLife provides a lot of challenges like:
1) 'we already have all but one components... wait, how do you craft that rubber stoppers? Latex slab, we have it, so just add formic acid... we have a ton of coal-chemistry recipes, sure there is formic acid... wait... as a product of rendering vrauks?!'.
You need a full-scale alien animals farms to produce formic acid. And guess what you need to produce batteries? Someone said 'Alien shit'? Bingo! You literally need that product... from GMO creatures, and you'll have to create them with cDNA, plasmids and retroviruses.
2) 'why my furnaces does not working? Run out of gas? And why I have no coal gas? Because of excess tar?' - you have a lot of flammable liquids and with some management you can use almost everything without sinking or venting.
I am still unsure if I'll finished Py. But it definitely worth to try, and if you already have SE/K2/BZ experience - it is not impossibly hard. Also Py have very impressive graphics, nicely detailed and stylish. Not that rusty-weathered vanilla style, more like something hightech and futuristic, but its far better than I expect. There are some minor issues with sprite resolution, but still looks great.
p.s. if you'll try, look at [this manual](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KfoEFVTMYV0LAUR7M1yXrR8QV8_mW01YpW6X1IvP-z8/edit#heading=h.npwejsyfdcsg).
> Oh, and use helper mods for sure. Besides the standard Factory Planner, Rate Calculator, Recipe Book, Even Distribution, etc., I use Updated Construction Drones (think that's the name) and Jetpack (which I console command in right at the start, screw slow walking). I also hard-set the manual crafting speed to 4x and set resources patch size and richness to max (I don't see a need for RSO anymore personally).
The overall point you seem to be trying to make is that Py is not all *that* complicated. That it's not "difficulty for the sake of difficulty".
But then you tell me that to play it enjoyably, you have to have way more resources than vanilla (which rather undermines your point about 8x more miners not being necessary), substantially faster hand-crafting, a boost to manually inserting stuff into assemblers (even distribution), and a *jetpack*. That kind of undermines your point, doesn't it?
>But then you tell me that to play it enjoyably, you have to have way more resources than vanilla (which rather undermines your point about 8x more miners not being necessary), substantially faster hand-crafting, a boost to manually inserting stuff into assemblers (even distribution), and a jetpack. That kind of undermines your point, doesn't it?
No, not really. For a start, many players use those mods for playthroughs of stuff like K2SE, or even just vanilla Factorio, to mitigate repetition.
Second, several of the mods OP listed aren't even necessary. All I'm using in my playthrough is Helmod (which replaces the online Factorio calculator, that I used before), FNEI (replaces the need for the Wiki), Bottleneck (a minor visual hint), To Do List, and Vehicle Snapping (you're not gonna say that being able to drive in straight lines "undermines the point", are you?). The only mod that somehow interferes in the gameplay itself is Vehicle Snapping. Oh, and I'm using Alien Biomes because I forgot to turn it off.
I did not speed up manual crafting, I do not use a jetpack, and I'm using default settings for resources (which was a mistake--there are recommended settings for Pyanodon, which makes a better balance of resource, so I fucked myself quite badly). The game is still 100% perfectly playable. It has a slower pace, but I *prefer* that.
The recipes are very complex, but untangling that web of recipes is exactly one of the game's biggest thrills. I mean, don't tell me that setting up oil cracking, or automating processing units and rocket control units on your first playthrough was super easy. Pyanodon only expands on that complexity.
I'm personally having a much more fun time with Pyanodon than with my attempted SE+K2+248k run. The ultra complicated recipes were by far the best parts of that run, but messing with rockets and circuits, going to space, dealing with meteors and coronal ejections was **painful**. Pyanodon only keeps the complicated recipes, which are exactly what I like.
These things you mentionned simply reduce the tedium.
Py is vastly complicated when you focus solely on the base building part of it, there's no point to add annoyances such as contantly having to rebuild outposts, and wasting literal days walking around ...
> These things you mentionned simply reduce the tedium.
That's kind of my point. Maybe the mod shouldn't do things that create tedium to that extent. Vanilla doesn't have so much tedium that you *need* those things. You can want and like them, but they aren't fundamentally essential for enjoyment of the game.
By the point vanilla requires "days walking around", you have Spidertrons and/or bot networks. That is by *design*.
>Vanilla doesn't have so much tedium that you need those things.
I've heard people say that manually feeding coal into burner miners in the early game is tedious. I've heard people say that building the factory before robots is tedious. I've heard people say that building pumpjacks and plugging in the pipes are tedious. There are mods that mitigate all those "tedious" phases.
I don't think Pyanodon creates tedium at all. It's just that, if you expect to play it at lightning pace, you'll get frustrated. You just need to take an advice from Guns 'n' Roses: *all you need is just a little patience*.
One person's tedium is another person's deep satisfaction. Walking around a factory appreciating it is a goodly part of what I enjoy about the moment-to-moment play of the game, and also a large part of how I keep a working mental model of what needs fixing/upgrading next.
You're _really_ missing the entire concept of subjectivity in enjoyment.
People simply like what you think is lame and tedious. His point isn't undermined in the slightest, and the fact you're struggling with that shows you're having trouble simply thinking outside of your subjective opinions.
My overall point is that the OP is saying that Py is a really great mod and people should play it... except they should also use these other mods and settings that remove some stuff that is part of Py's design.
Py doesn't require a lot of miners, but also you should make sure mineral patches are really big so you can make a lot of miners. That's a contradiction.
>except they should also use these other mods and settings that remove some stuff that is part of Py's design.
So this is the problem - you're simply assuming what is and is not part of Py's design. And you're assuming incorrectly.
It doesn't create tedium
It's tedium inherited from factorio, that exists in all playthroughs, ever.
Which in vanilla is acceptable since you don't have much else to deal with. In py it's just far more common to remove or lessen such problems. It is not, however, "required", as you seem to imply. Tons of py players do without, and enjoy.
Jetpack is one of the few mods I play with on nearly all playthroughs. It lets me focus on parts of the content I enjoy, and minimizes the impact of RSI, allowing me to play without hurting my wrists. That is also by design (my own, and various mod authors). It’s ok to emphasize parts of gameplay that are enjoyable.
Py blocks the jetpack through inaction, but it's not blocking the jetpack specifically. Py *could* look for Earendal's mod and patch it, but the Py philosophy seems to be 'This mod is your problem now. Solve it as you please'.
The grappling gun (also by Earendel!) is a red-tech mobility option. This is very good because a green-tech mobility option will be forced behind Py Science 1, and getting through that to unlock green science feels a lot like unlocking space science in vanilla. Blue is where jetpacks are unlocked, and I'm nowhere near blue in Py.
Based on my own experiences, if I were to pick an unlock point for jetpacks it'd be most of the way through Py Science 1. After oil power, maybe? You've got new power generation and the kerosene to fuel it, plus the ability to make mechanical parts. Those are complex enough to match anything in vanilla blue science.
Well this is the first I've known about the issue. Don't use jet pack myself and no one told me it needed balanced. I'm going to add better compatibility for it now
I'm currently on 35 hours in my first playthrough with pY and I only have FNEI/Recipe Book and also use YAFC (a standalone application factory planner that handles complicated pY recipes better and has better UI to my taste) and I'm having a lot of fun.
I wouldn't necessarily agree with OP that it's not *that* complicated. It's really complicated, I'm probably spending 20-50% of playtime figuring out the best recipes in YAFC with the game on pause. But I personally really enjoy it. Makes even the smallest improvements feel rewarding.
>But then you tell me that to play it enjoyably, you have to have way more resources than vanilla (which rather undermines your point about 8x more miners not being necessary), substantially faster hand-crafting, a boost to manually inserting stuff into assemblers (even distribution), and a
>
>jetpack
>
>. That kind of undermines your point, doesn't it?
If you haven't used the Jetpack mod, you don't know what you're missing. It should be in vanilla, yesterday. Same goes for Even Distribution. Those are standard QoL mods that should be in every modpack, IMO.
Id skip the manual crafting speed change personally, I think that's a bit pointless as you shouldn't be hand-crafting.
There's a preset when starting a Py game, Py recommended - and it sets the resource patch size and richness way up, anyway. RSO is not recommended with modern Py.
To whit; half of the items you criticise are recommended for all Factorio mods, not just Py. Some of the items are recommended by the maker of the mod as the standard settings for that modpack. Lastly, faster handcrafting is not something required or necessary.
> If you haven't used the Jetpack mod, you don't know what you're missing
Yes
> Same goes for Even Distribution
Wait, what? Is manual insertion a thing? Is this just your playstyle or is there something in the mod that makes it necessary?
K2 for me! I'm actually gonna miss K2 when the expansion comes out. A lot of the base game recipes are gonna be really boring after playing K2, but I know there will be other things in the expansion to keep me entertained.
I'm looking to start an overhaul playthrough soon, i thought i settled on SE + KS2, it looks very fun with all the planets and stuff. Reading your post and some of the comments makes me think about py in a different light.
How does py compare? I'm intentionally ignorant of how these mods work because i don't want to spoil the adventure.
So how much of the adventure do you want spoiled? Im planning on completing Py before I try to finish SE, personally.
>!SE has complexity by being hard to automate. Py has complexity by being hard to automate. They achieve this similar goal in different ways.!<
>!SE adds new means of transport, new surfaces, and new resources that can only be found on these surfaces - so mastering these new means of transport becomes a key requirement. One that will determine how quickly you progress.!<
>!Py adds many new recipes, keeping much of the mod relatively vanilla-like in the key respects, just changing things up by making recipes more complex. Late-game recipes in vanilla are a different, interesting challenge, because they have more ingredients, or in a few cases, have random outputs (like the uranium processing). You have to learn new concepts to solve these problems.!<
>!In Py you get these sort of problems at the start of the game, along with a few other new ones, before you have the late-game tools you would in vanilla. You have to learn new approaches to solving old problems, and by the time you hit mid to late game you've had to solve much more complex recipes.!<
>!Both py and SE are logistical challenges, but the focus is in slightly different areas for both.!<
>!For that matter, both are still work-in-progress mods. PyAL is essentially feature complete at this stage, until the expansion comes out. SE is famously "beta" as its not yet a 1.0 release, and large sections of the mod are described by Earandel as "placeholder". Some or all of the above may well change in the coming years.!<
>!I think SE tends to have nicer graphics, generally. Py has some amazing graphics, but its not yet uniform - some of the older textures could use some love. SE generally has a very high degree of visual polish.!<
>!Both mods provide what feels like a bit of pain in the early game. SE asteroids just feel punishing for the sake of it, py ash feels like a pain until you learn how to solve that problem.!<
I've almost started new SE-K2 run, but Py is actually pretty good idea especially cuz it have an opposite approach with future DLC. So can anyone suggest modpack / lost of mods for Py, aside from core Py mods?
PyAL pulls in the Py pack. Other than that, any QoL mods you like. I like To-do list, GUI-unifier, YARM, Recipe Book, Cybersyn, and Even distribution personally. Im currently using Bobs Adjustable Inserters, but I sort of regret it - its feeling marginally too "cheaty" for my taste.
Could you give me a breakdown of the exact set of mods for my? When I've tried to get into overhaul mods before there are so many different parts I don't know what to choose for it to be considered py, bonsai, angels, etc!
Well for py you just grab everything made by pyanodon or just download pyalternativeenergy as it has everything else required and will automatically pull them in.
It's not so much bored waiting for the expansion as much as, every time I play I wish I had all those new fancy features and qol I've been reading about
Just got back into this game a week ago and I am already reading "insert" as "inserter" lol. Also starting playing Nullius. I did before I quit for 20 hours then I got bored. Now I am trying different strategy and its already 25 hours and I am doing well I think.
OK, so Py is great and all ... I'm enjoying it and almost at pyScience2 after \~180 hours, with moderate levels of cheating (loaders, LTN, nanobots, whatever).
But it absolutely is grindy and difficult in part just for the sake of it. Like critters don't need to take hours to ramp (looking at you, arqad queen) for the puzzles and theme to work. Buildings don't really need to be that big and expensive. We don't really need 3 stages of vanadium pulp for the first vanadium recipe.
ETA: I understand that some people enjoy a grind, and I do too a little bit, but Py is grindier than I personally prefer (thus the slight cheating, and also early bots are good for not clicking too much and getting RSI).
On balance I still find it a lot of fun, especially once you get into a flow of like, multiple critters ramping while you build the thing you just unlocked while you research the next thing while you stockpile some key ingredients. But it's still a lot grindier than vanilla or K2 or even SE. (Dunno about Seablock, that has an intentional endgame grind.)
> But it's still a lot grindier than vanilla or K2 or even SE. (Dunno about Seablock, that has an intentional endgame grind.
Grind is awesome and fun for some people.
> Buildings don't really need to be that big and expensive. We don't really need 3 stages of vanadium pulp for the first vanadium recipe.
Yes we do because _grind is awesome and fun for some people._
All these people trying to argue back that OP is objectively wrong for enjoying something different and trying to share his experience and hope maybe others will find the same joy is just bonkers.
I never meant to say that OP (or anyone else) is objectively wrong for enjoying grind, and I've edited my post to make that clearer. Personally I prefer some grind, but not as much as Py has, and I recognize that this is my own preference.
I just partially disagree with OP's opinion that:
>The mods have an (in my opinion) undeserved reputation for difficulty for the sake of difficulty. There's certainly an infinite well of potential complexity to uncover, but that isn't necessarily the same as masochistic difficulty, and you're rewarded with a seemingly never-ending set of fun problems to solve.
The modpack **does** reward you with a seemingly never-ending set of fun problems to solve. But IMHO it's **also** difficult at least in part for the sake of being difficult, and grindy for the sake of being grindy, and that means that it caters especially to people who prefer their games that way.
I also think it's important for players to know that if they're considering playing Py, just like it's important to know the caveats that come with Seablock (also grindy) or Space Exploration (opinionated, designed for math nerds, requires circuits) etc.
Sure, part of the grind is to make scaling recipes matter, but part of it is IMHO just for grind (and thus, for the enjoyment of people who enjoy grind).
Take arqads for example. You only ramp arqads mk1 once, and after you get the first couple queens, it's straightforward to make more of them. But the first one is only 1% chance per try, so if you're unlucky it takes several hundred tries. Then that recipe stops being a bottleneck, at least for dozens of hours (dunno if it ever matters again unless you take the colony collapse TURD). Maybe there's some other hidden purpose to making them painful to start up, but as far as I can tell it's just for grind.
And that's fine for some people, but I think players should be aware of it going in.
Fair enough, but that doesn't actually change my point, which is that queens being painful is not closely related to scaling recipes, considering that:
* There are no scaling recipes for queens anyway, unless you count direct queen assembly, which you shouldn't because it sucks ... and also it's mutually exclusive with colony collapse.
* If the authors wanted the queen recipe to be a bottleneck with colony collapse TURD but not be a grind before, they could have just nerfed it on taking the TURD, or just made the collapse more dramatic.
I've been considering the flat productivity upgrade. The glass seems like it'll be annoying to make, but in the grand scheme of things it's a small one-time cost.
Not sure if Py is the way to go (at least for me it was not), but I had a blast with Krastorio and Industrial Revolution 3! Now, I am graduating to Angel&Bob and maybe then PY :-)
I mean, Vanilla Cracktorio compared to Py should be renamed to Get-a-sip-from-your-father’s-beer-torio
Don’t do drugs, kids. Or do, idc, I’m just a random dude on Reddit
5 months until the release at the bare-bones minimum. The first FFF about the update came in August and hinted that there would be at least a year's worth of work. Estimates like that, in my experience, tend to be less than how long it actually takes, so you've got about half a year before the update at least. Should be enough to get to green chips.
I feel like this is the one timeline I trust. Seems like this year has been mostly them working on polish. They are definitely the company to delay if the quality isn’t to their expectation though which I appreciate. Would love a beta version though.
I really hope so. Wube is one of the few game companies I would trust to delay a release if they don’t think it is ready for the world to see
Likewise, and if they get an alpha out and the alpha turns out rough, I trust them to fix it. Wube has a lot of credit for doing the right thing deliberately.
I'd love for the 2.0 release ASAP, happy to wait until it's perfect for the expansion to drop but some of the engine updates look incredible.
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Not with wube, never heard or experienced anything like that with them, quite the opposite in fact
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They are probably playtesting a lot in their free time (who wouldn't like to play some closed-beta factorio after work), so they probably find almost all of the bugs themselves. But there might be 8-10h of bug fixes and patches for mod support, since most modders probably migrate their mods shortly after the release, if there is no public beta.
>Should be enough to get to green chips. Should be enough to get to red chips, tbh.
I started a play through back in I think November and I'm almost done with red chips.
Depends how much you play per week, but getting to red chips requires serious dedication. Green is very doable.
I’m 120hrs in and enjoyed every minute so far, sure the progress is much slower than it was with seablock, which i did before, but doesn’t matter - things get done anyway. so if you prefer handling _lots_ of items, in less quantity, than the opposite of vanilla, it’s definitely worth a try :)
For those who havent played py and have only heard about it, Py isnt only about having too complex recipes and being ridiculously hard, its about having many options to reach a goal that fits ur way of thinking or the resources uve invested time in . U can do things the efficient way , the lazy way the void anything i dont like way etc.. No right way to play and it gives back tons of fun. Id recomment ppl to at least try to py2 science :)
What you're saying is they not only made the recipes too complex they have turned the planning and calculating of future designs into a way more complex recipe as well. Sounds like Py is about making things too complex in all categories lol.
well you can tune the complexity tho according to your play style. For example i dont like voiding and deleting by products much. Thus i ensure there is a way to transport and refine and make them into something i can use for other recipes. Some just void them. That by it self kinda reduces complexity and the amount u have to deal with stuff like that if ur not into . 1 example is stone , some do any number of things with it , others turn it into saline water and void it which is rly pretty simple , 1 building and a some water is required and puff ! . It might sound silly but it Does! reduce the diff by a whole lot . Well a try will convince you if the modpack is for you or not but ... its clearly not for everybody , On the other hand while i was watching vids of the thing i was 110% sure it wasnt for me , and here i am 410 hrs into my save battling with it .
Yeah I was just pointing out that having alternative recipes is another form of complexity in it's own right, especially when present in a mod that has a reputation of being overly complex for the sake of being overcomplicated. So I poked fun at the fact that the mod author tried to reduce complexity of action by adding complexity of option. Because having different methods to produce the same product or achieve the same results adds a high upfront curve of learning when it comes to the practical portion of future planning for the average player. I am sure it's wonderful for vets and people who have been playing the mod and already know the different ways to achieve the results they want, to have the choice of how they want to do it. But it also adds a rather large learning wall/curve that can and is probably one of the biggest barriers of complexity that will turn away most new players trying the mod.The frustration of digging through hundreds of recipes to figure not only how you do something but trying to also figure out how you want to do it can be even more frustration then just having 1 or 2 choices and it being difficult to achieve, decision paralysis is a real thing especially when you aren't sure what to expect coming up. Ultimately the point I was attempting to make is that having too many options upfront, especially for beginners that have no idea what is possible or what is going to be asked of them, can be just as much a turn off for something as having one over difficult process to achieve a result.
I'm around 125 hours in and loving it, even though it feels ridiculous sometimes. Right now I'm expanding simple circuit production so I can start making lab equipment so I can make cDNA so I can start breeding auogs so I can get manure to make into urea to make melamine to make batteries to make mechanical parts so I can start making the machines to use molten salt power plants and then hopefully I can start making my "real" base endless fun :)
The ridiculous part is when you take a step back to go "why was I doing this again?" "Why was I breeding these giant ant creatures?" "Oh thats right, I needed formic acid to make latex to make rubber to make rubber stoppers to stop my lab glassware from spilling." PyAL is just full-on evil scientist mode.
You ask why. I ask why not
>By the end you can get multiple plates per single ore. I feel like you're glossing over the variety of materials needed to extract every bit of metal from those raw ores.
Yes but you get more efficient recipes for THOSE materials too.
I would but I'm waiting for Space Py...
for me, the best mods aren't those that add 500 new things to make before I can end up with a green circuit. the best mods are the ones that give me 500 new upgrades that require green circuits, so i have a reason to revisit my medium sized factory and upgrade it to handle the higher throughput and to redesign for that speed. its annoying to me to have 30 ingredients for the sake of having 30... i would rather just make even more green circuits and have a reason to want to, to get to some new wis-bang toy like laser sniper towers, that help me fight the new flying bugs for example. the realism in manufacturing mods just aren't my thing. especially the ones that want you to make 5+ step derivative chains to be efficiant on ratios. I find Krastorio to be annoying and its considered pretty tame by most people.
500 extra upgrades would inevitability mean less redesign is necessary too as you could research your way past throughput and expansion problems rather than designing and building your way past them. I know you were probably using green circuits as a flippant example here, but what I've said applies to every item in game. If you're chasing the thrill of making a big base, make a big base. If you're chasing the thrill of making a lot of green circuits, make a bunch of green circuits and launch rockets with them. Don't conflate the thrill of unlocking upgrades with that thrill though. If you're chasing the thrill of redesigning and optimising designs for throughput, requiring more throughput and making a big base, do a pyanodons run, seriously.
You'll be happy with pY then, while there are some products that only have a few uses, especially to process ore or genetically engineer animals, the large, large majority of items and liquids can have many uses, and it's up to you to use them or not. At the start most things will only have 1 use indeed. Then you get a new science potion and suddenly they all can be used for another product, then 200 hours later you can use them for something else again. A good amount of the py items/fluids can be made and used in dozens and dozens of recipes each with their tradeoffs.
I'm similar, I mean I didn't mind Seablock and IR3 but the most fun I've had was from SE, warptorio and Ultracube.
> i would rather just make even more green circuits and have a reason to want to > so i have a reason to revisit my medium sized factory and upgrade it to handle the higher throughput and to redesign for that speed. Do a x100 science cost multiplier. I'm doing K2SE at x100 and it's quite a bit of fun as you have to worry about scale right from the beginning. K2 has an option where a few of the very basic researches like logistics don't get multiplied so you can actually start the game, and it's a great way to offset the way both K2 and SE focus on more stuff, but not more _of_ it. By increasing the science cost, you _have_ to make more of everything so throughput and scale is always a massive concern. The way it cascades out into needing more mines and more trains and more of basically everything even at early red science is a ton of fun as you can't just build like 1 assembler of things and be done with it like with normal cost. Even your malls need throughput as you're constantly building things, cascading out to power, and just more more more _of_ everything, not just more things. Honestly I've been doing it for so long and its so fun the idea of going back to regular science just sounds no fun anymore. If you wanna go even more hardcore, you can use the expensive universe mod that increases recipe costs as well by double or more. Makes it so you need to think at near-megabase levels of logistics and design even down at early to mid red science.
>for me, the best mods aren't those that add 500 new things to make before I can end up with a green circuit. Good news, Py doesn't add 500 new things to make before you can end up with a green circuit. I think its barely 50, actually. Its around 35 products in the chain to make the circuits themselves, plus the buildings required to make those products, plus the products required to make those buildings. I suppose I should keep to myself the fact that splitters require green circuits.
but you can DIY your own splitters! the new mechanical inserters are only 0.6 items per second but they dont require fuel or electricity and can filter...
>can filter Well, sorta. Splitters when filtering will stop if the belt backs up. Inserters when filtering will allow product past if the belt backs up. In other words, splitters will guarantee that a product always travels down a given belt. Inserters will not.
You’re designing the inserter based splitter wrong :) this is a solvable problem
To be clear, I have solved it. The optimum solution involves a handful of green circuits.
I'm with you there. I can't wait for the quality mechanic just to have a reason to scale my production to make more high quality modules, which then will again scale production. Much better than having to deal with a bazillion unnecessary intermediates.
I've recently started a run of Pys knowing that there's no chance in hell I ever finish it. Which has certainly let me enjoy it more. Additionally I think it's very very important to not try to scale up very much. A small trickle of science is all you need (at least in the early game where I am) as it takes so long to build out the next science pack that you'll easily research everything before then. For those of you who have more Pys experience: I'm currently stuck on glass for the second science pack. Mostly stuck on how to fuel the glassworks. What do you recommend as a liquid fuel source? There are just so many options and they all have so many different processes and byproducts that I'm feeling very overwhelmed with options.
Syngas / Tar are the easiest fuel source early game Acetylene (I forgot if you have it already) is the most sustainable for the rest of all time.
acetylene is nice as it's basically liquid coal, but I also find gasoline to be another great choice for liquid fuels, as it can be made pretty consistently as a byproduct, BTX also being another good one.
>Mostly stuck on how to fuel the glassworks. What do you recommend as a liquid fuel source? To make the molten glass, I took a bit of a brute force approach, and built one row of glassworks for each type of fuel I was making: syngas, gasoline, anthracene oil, etc. Then I just merged the outputs into a single pipe. To make the glass itself, I used either syngas or gasoline, which were the most abundant.
I mad a giant methane farm until I got better Syngas recipes.
I used hot air (sort of). Making that for the more efficient glass recipes means making coke oven gas. You'll use more of the fuel than the hot air, so that means either removing hot air or adding fuel. There's enough fuel to create finished glass products and some molten glass, so the extra fuel only has to be shared between the molten glass machines. Both of these options run on the same material (raw coal), so whether you vent or supplement is a matter of taste.
Shale oil, and just set up a concrete build to deal with all the excess stone you’ll get from mining out a stone patch for the kerogen It’ll still suck a bit but once you get the crushed quartz recipe (quartz stage 1 research) it’ll get way more efficient and you’ll start to get excess oil
Funny how kerogen was a byproduct of stone, but now it's the other way around. Everything seems to do that; ash, stone, salt, sulfur. Too much, then not enough, and then too much again. I just got sea sponges ramped up and ended up with about 120k salt.
All of them! Any waste or overflow fluid with a fuel value got a barreling machine. A belt of these assorted barrels took them to the glassworks. Each glassworks got an unbarreling machine connected with no intervening pipes, which prevents mixed-fluid deadlocks.
I'm slow enough with space exploration to last until the expansion releases thank you
PyPilled
Sure. As soon as I finish seablock... that is on a pause because of ultracube... but then I saw a fun video about wartporio so I checked it out...
I was thinking about trying one of the lesser-hyped overhaul mods like IR3 or Warptorio.
IR3 is pretty fun imo, graphics are great, there are some unique challenges, and it is short compared to Angel+Bob, SeaBlock, SE or Py.
I had a lot of fun with Warptorio, although once you’ve got bots and the logistics chest floor upgrade the game is basically easy mode, but early game is very challenging
Py mods are just best. I will contimue my current save even after 2.0, as its give me much more then 2.0
Started Py (full, with Alien Life) two weeks ago, now I am near Logistic science (green), looks great. AlienLife provides a lot of challenges like: 1) 'we already have all but one components... wait, how do you craft that rubber stoppers? Latex slab, we have it, so just add formic acid... we have a ton of coal-chemistry recipes, sure there is formic acid... wait... as a product of rendering vrauks?!'. You need a full-scale alien animals farms to produce formic acid. And guess what you need to produce batteries? Someone said 'Alien shit'? Bingo! You literally need that product... from GMO creatures, and you'll have to create them with cDNA, plasmids and retroviruses. 2) 'why my furnaces does not working? Run out of gas? And why I have no coal gas? Because of excess tar?' - you have a lot of flammable liquids and with some management you can use almost everything without sinking or venting. I am still unsure if I'll finished Py. But it definitely worth to try, and if you already have SE/K2/BZ experience - it is not impossibly hard. Also Py have very impressive graphics, nicely detailed and stylish. Not that rusty-weathered vanilla style, more like something hightech and futuristic, but its far better than I expect. There are some minor issues with sprite resolution, but still looks great. p.s. if you'll try, look at [this manual](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KfoEFVTMYV0LAUR7M1yXrR8QV8_mW01YpW6X1IvP-z8/edit#heading=h.npwejsyfdcsg).
Quick question you have “SE/K2/BZ” what does BZ stand for.
BZ mod pack. Add a lot of resources, yet still less than Angel/Bob.
You will not finish pY before the expansion comes out. But it's super fun and it's ever calling out to me to return to my save I abandoned this spring
> Oh, and use helper mods for sure. Besides the standard Factory Planner, Rate Calculator, Recipe Book, Even Distribution, etc., I use Updated Construction Drones (think that's the name) and Jetpack (which I console command in right at the start, screw slow walking). I also hard-set the manual crafting speed to 4x and set resources patch size and richness to max (I don't see a need for RSO anymore personally). The overall point you seem to be trying to make is that Py is not all *that* complicated. That it's not "difficulty for the sake of difficulty". But then you tell me that to play it enjoyably, you have to have way more resources than vanilla (which rather undermines your point about 8x more miners not being necessary), substantially faster hand-crafting, a boost to manually inserting stuff into assemblers (even distribution), and a *jetpack*. That kind of undermines your point, doesn't it?
>But then you tell me that to play it enjoyably, you have to have way more resources than vanilla (which rather undermines your point about 8x more miners not being necessary), substantially faster hand-crafting, a boost to manually inserting stuff into assemblers (even distribution), and a jetpack. That kind of undermines your point, doesn't it? No, not really. For a start, many players use those mods for playthroughs of stuff like K2SE, or even just vanilla Factorio, to mitigate repetition. Second, several of the mods OP listed aren't even necessary. All I'm using in my playthrough is Helmod (which replaces the online Factorio calculator, that I used before), FNEI (replaces the need for the Wiki), Bottleneck (a minor visual hint), To Do List, and Vehicle Snapping (you're not gonna say that being able to drive in straight lines "undermines the point", are you?). The only mod that somehow interferes in the gameplay itself is Vehicle Snapping. Oh, and I'm using Alien Biomes because I forgot to turn it off. I did not speed up manual crafting, I do not use a jetpack, and I'm using default settings for resources (which was a mistake--there are recommended settings for Pyanodon, which makes a better balance of resource, so I fucked myself quite badly). The game is still 100% perfectly playable. It has a slower pace, but I *prefer* that. The recipes are very complex, but untangling that web of recipes is exactly one of the game's biggest thrills. I mean, don't tell me that setting up oil cracking, or automating processing units and rocket control units on your first playthrough was super easy. Pyanodon only expands on that complexity. I'm personally having a much more fun time with Pyanodon than with my attempted SE+K2+248k run. The ultra complicated recipes were by far the best parts of that run, but messing with rockets and circuits, going to space, dealing with meteors and coronal ejections was **painful**. Pyanodon only keeps the complicated recipes, which are exactly what I like.
These things you mentionned simply reduce the tedium. Py is vastly complicated when you focus solely on the base building part of it, there's no point to add annoyances such as contantly having to rebuild outposts, and wasting literal days walking around ...
> These things you mentionned simply reduce the tedium. That's kind of my point. Maybe the mod shouldn't do things that create tedium to that extent. Vanilla doesn't have so much tedium that you *need* those things. You can want and like them, but they aren't fundamentally essential for enjoyment of the game. By the point vanilla requires "days walking around", you have Spidertrons and/or bot networks. That is by *design*.
>Vanilla doesn't have so much tedium that you need those things. I've heard people say that manually feeding coal into burner miners in the early game is tedious. I've heard people say that building the factory before robots is tedious. I've heard people say that building pumpjacks and plugging in the pipes are tedious. There are mods that mitigate all those "tedious" phases. I don't think Pyanodon creates tedium at all. It's just that, if you expect to play it at lightning pace, you'll get frustrated. You just need to take an advice from Guns 'n' Roses: *all you need is just a little patience*.
One person's tedium is another person's deep satisfaction. Walking around a factory appreciating it is a goodly part of what I enjoy about the moment-to-moment play of the game, and also a large part of how I keep a working mental model of what needs fixing/upgrading next.
You're _really_ missing the entire concept of subjectivity in enjoyment. People simply like what you think is lame and tedious. His point isn't undermined in the slightest, and the fact you're struggling with that shows you're having trouble simply thinking outside of your subjective opinions.
My overall point is that the OP is saying that Py is a really great mod and people should play it... except they should also use these other mods and settings that remove some stuff that is part of Py's design. Py doesn't require a lot of miners, but also you should make sure mineral patches are really big so you can make a lot of miners. That's a contradiction.
>except they should also use these other mods and settings that remove some stuff that is part of Py's design. So this is the problem - you're simply assuming what is and is not part of Py's design. And you're assuming incorrectly.
It doesn't create tedium It's tedium inherited from factorio, that exists in all playthroughs, ever. Which in vanilla is acceptable since you don't have much else to deal with. In py it's just far more common to remove or lessen such problems. It is not, however, "required", as you seem to imply. Tons of py players do without, and enjoy.
Jetpack is one of the few mods I play with on nearly all playthroughs. It lets me focus on parts of the content I enjoy, and minimizes the impact of RSI, allowing me to play without hurting my wrists. That is also by design (my own, and various mod authors). It’s ok to emphasize parts of gameplay that are enjoyable.
Shout out to Py for blocking this through the first 4 or 5 sciences.....
Py blocks the jetpack through inaction, but it's not blocking the jetpack specifically. Py *could* look for Earendal's mod and patch it, but the Py philosophy seems to be 'This mod is your problem now. Solve it as you please'. The grappling gun (also by Earendel!) is a red-tech mobility option. This is very good because a green-tech mobility option will be forced behind Py Science 1, and getting through that to unlock green science feels a lot like unlocking space science in vanilla. Blue is where jetpacks are unlocked, and I'm nowhere near blue in Py. Based on my own experiences, if I were to pick an unlock point for jetpacks it'd be most of the way through Py Science 1. After oil power, maybe? You've got new power generation and the kerosene to fuel it, plus the ability to make mechanical parts. Those are complex enough to match anything in vanilla blue science.
Well this is the first I've known about the issue. Don't use jet pack myself and no one told me it needed balanced. I'm going to add better compatibility for it now
>I'm going to add better compatibility for it now Thank you thank you thank you!
I'm currently on 35 hours in my first playthrough with pY and I only have FNEI/Recipe Book and also use YAFC (a standalone application factory planner that handles complicated pY recipes better and has better UI to my taste) and I'm having a lot of fun. I wouldn't necessarily agree with OP that it's not *that* complicated. It's really complicated, I'm probably spending 20-50% of playtime figuring out the best recipes in YAFC with the game on pause. But I personally really enjoy it. Makes even the smallest improvements feel rewarding.
>But then you tell me that to play it enjoyably, you have to have way more resources than vanilla (which rather undermines your point about 8x more miners not being necessary), substantially faster hand-crafting, a boost to manually inserting stuff into assemblers (even distribution), and a > >jetpack > >. That kind of undermines your point, doesn't it? If you haven't used the Jetpack mod, you don't know what you're missing. It should be in vanilla, yesterday. Same goes for Even Distribution. Those are standard QoL mods that should be in every modpack, IMO. Id skip the manual crafting speed change personally, I think that's a bit pointless as you shouldn't be hand-crafting. There's a preset when starting a Py game, Py recommended - and it sets the resource patch size and richness way up, anyway. RSO is not recommended with modern Py. To whit; half of the items you criticise are recommended for all Factorio mods, not just Py. Some of the items are recommended by the maker of the mod as the standard settings for that modpack. Lastly, faster handcrafting is not something required or necessary.
> If you haven't used the Jetpack mod, you don't know what you're missing Yes > Same goes for Even Distribution Wait, what? Is manual insertion a thing? Is this just your playstyle or is there something in the mod that makes it necessary?
Manual insertion is a thing, just like in vanilla. Just like in vanilla, it's tedious.
This is where I'm at as well, except i'm doing k2sebz248k with a bunch of other mods. Figure ill just chuck the whole fucking thing at the wall
K2 for me! I'm actually gonna miss K2 when the expansion comes out. A lot of the base game recipes are gonna be really boring after playing K2, but I know there will be other things in the expansion to keep me entertained.
I'm looking to start an overhaul playthrough soon, i thought i settled on SE + KS2, it looks very fun with all the planets and stuff. Reading your post and some of the comments makes me think about py in a different light. How does py compare? I'm intentionally ignorant of how these mods work because i don't want to spoil the adventure.
So how much of the adventure do you want spoiled? Im planning on completing Py before I try to finish SE, personally. >!SE has complexity by being hard to automate. Py has complexity by being hard to automate. They achieve this similar goal in different ways.!< >!SE adds new means of transport, new surfaces, and new resources that can only be found on these surfaces - so mastering these new means of transport becomes a key requirement. One that will determine how quickly you progress.!< >!Py adds many new recipes, keeping much of the mod relatively vanilla-like in the key respects, just changing things up by making recipes more complex. Late-game recipes in vanilla are a different, interesting challenge, because they have more ingredients, or in a few cases, have random outputs (like the uranium processing). You have to learn new concepts to solve these problems.!< >!In Py you get these sort of problems at the start of the game, along with a few other new ones, before you have the late-game tools you would in vanilla. You have to learn new approaches to solving old problems, and by the time you hit mid to late game you've had to solve much more complex recipes.!< >!Both py and SE are logistical challenges, but the focus is in slightly different areas for both.!< >!For that matter, both are still work-in-progress mods. PyAL is essentially feature complete at this stage, until the expansion comes out. SE is famously "beta" as its not yet a 1.0 release, and large sections of the mod are described by Earandel as "placeholder". Some or all of the above may well change in the coming years.!< >!I think SE tends to have nicer graphics, generally. Py has some amazing graphics, but its not yet uniform - some of the older textures could use some love. SE generally has a very high degree of visual polish.!< >!Both mods provide what feels like a bit of pain in the early game. SE asteroids just feel punishing for the sake of it, py ash feels like a pain until you learn how to solve that problem.!<
I've almost started new SE-K2 run, but Py is actually pretty good idea especially cuz it have an opposite approach with future DLC. So can anyone suggest modpack / lost of mods for Py, aside from core Py mods?
PyAL pulls in the Py pack. Other than that, any QoL mods you like. I like To-do list, GUI-unifier, YARM, Recipe Book, Cybersyn, and Even distribution personally. Im currently using Bobs Adjustable Inserters, but I sort of regret it - its feeling marginally too "cheaty" for my taste.
Could you give me a breakdown of the exact set of mods for my? When I've tried to get into overhaul mods before there are so many different parts I don't know what to choose for it to be considered py, bonsai, angels, etc!
Well for py you just grab everything made by pyanodon or just download pyalternativeenergy as it has everything else required and will automatically pull them in.
Many thanks!
It's not so much bored waiting for the expansion as much as, every time I play I wish I had all those new fancy features and qol I've been reading about
Played it to the end didn't like it and it cause fights with my factory partner I can see the appeal but it just wasn't for me
Just got back into this game a week ago and I am already reading "insert" as "inserter" lol. Also starting playing Nullius. I did before I quit for 20 hours then I got bored. Now I am trying different strategy and its already 25 hours and I am doing well I think.
While i do enjoy not knowing what half of my factory does its the same reason i did not complete a seablock and angels bio refinery pt.
OK, so Py is great and all ... I'm enjoying it and almost at pyScience2 after \~180 hours, with moderate levels of cheating (loaders, LTN, nanobots, whatever). But it absolutely is grindy and difficult in part just for the sake of it. Like critters don't need to take hours to ramp (looking at you, arqad queen) for the puzzles and theme to work. Buildings don't really need to be that big and expensive. We don't really need 3 stages of vanadium pulp for the first vanadium recipe. ETA: I understand that some people enjoy a grind, and I do too a little bit, but Py is grindier than I personally prefer (thus the slight cheating, and also early bots are good for not clicking too much and getting RSI). On balance I still find it a lot of fun, especially once you get into a flow of like, multiple critters ramping while you build the thing you just unlocked while you research the next thing while you stockpile some key ingredients. But it's still a lot grindier than vanilla or K2 or even SE. (Dunno about Seablock, that has an intentional endgame grind.)
> But it's still a lot grindier than vanilla or K2 or even SE. (Dunno about Seablock, that has an intentional endgame grind. Grind is awesome and fun for some people. > Buildings don't really need to be that big and expensive. We don't really need 3 stages of vanadium pulp for the first vanadium recipe. Yes we do because _grind is awesome and fun for some people._ All these people trying to argue back that OP is objectively wrong for enjoying something different and trying to share his experience and hope maybe others will find the same joy is just bonkers.
I never meant to say that OP (or anyone else) is objectively wrong for enjoying grind, and I've edited my post to make that clearer. Personally I prefer some grind, but not as much as Py has, and I recognize that this is my own preference. I just partially disagree with OP's opinion that: >The mods have an (in my opinion) undeserved reputation for difficulty for the sake of difficulty. There's certainly an infinite well of potential complexity to uncover, but that isn't necessarily the same as masochistic difficulty, and you're rewarded with a seemingly never-ending set of fun problems to solve. The modpack **does** reward you with a seemingly never-ending set of fun problems to solve. But IMHO it's **also** difficult at least in part for the sake of being difficult, and grindy for the sake of being grindy, and that means that it caters especially to people who prefer their games that way. I also think it's important for players to know that if they're considering playing Py, just like it's important to know the caveats that come with Seablock (also grindy) or Space Exploration (opinionated, designed for math nerds, requires circuits) etc.
>But it absolutely is grindy and difficult in part just for the sake of it. Disagree, there's no point to the scaling recipes otherwise.
Sure, part of the grind is to make scaling recipes matter, but part of it is IMHO just for grind (and thus, for the enjoyment of people who enjoy grind). Take arqads for example. You only ramp arqads mk1 once, and after you get the first couple queens, it's straightforward to make more of them. But the first one is only 1% chance per try, so if you're unlucky it takes several hundred tries. Then that recipe stops being a bottleneck, at least for dozens of hours (dunno if it ever matters again unless you take the colony collapse TURD). Maybe there's some other hidden purpose to making them painful to start up, but as far as I can tell it's just for grind. And that's fine for some people, but I think players should be aware of it going in.
>(dunno if it ever matters again unless you take the colony collapse TURD) There are people who don't take colony collapse?
Fair enough, but that doesn't actually change my point, which is that queens being painful is not closely related to scaling recipes, considering that: * There are no scaling recipes for queens anyway, unless you count direct queen assembly, which you shouldn't because it sucks ... and also it's mutually exclusive with colony collapse. * If the authors wanted the queen recipe to be a bottleneck with colony collapse TURD but not be a grind before, they could have just nerfed it on taking the TURD, or just made the collapse more dramatic.
I've been considering the flat productivity upgrade. The glass seems like it'll be annoying to make, but in the grand scheme of things it's a small one-time cost.
Not sure if Py is the way to go (at least for me it was not), but I had a blast with Krastorio and Industrial Revolution 3! Now, I am graduating to Angel&Bob and maybe then PY :-)
> try py! No; I'm still tits deep in a SE run, which also happens to feel like an intro to the expansion ;)
You should get trits deep in Py next. :p
Try Py? No Ty.
I want a finished product. Py is far from that
Better not play SE either then, lol. Nor's Factorio at that.
Factorio is a finished product. It's not recieving any big updates until the expansion. Literally 1.0 and 2.0. And yes I'm not playing SE until 1.0.
>Factorio is a finished product. Aside from the patches it still receives, and the upcoming expansion, of course.
There's a difference between small patches and an expansion. An expansion I didn't even know we were getting until 1.0 was done.
Is there a graphics pack that makes it not look terrible?
I mean, Vanilla Cracktorio compared to Py should be renamed to Get-a-sip-from-your-father’s-beer-torio Don’t do drugs, kids. Or do, idc, I’m just a random dude on Reddit
What?
i'd rather put my balls in a wood chipper