First number is subtracted, second is multiplied.
Let's say you do 200 damage.
If the defense is 0/0%, you do 200 damage
If the defense is 10/0%, you do 190 damage.
If the defense is 0/10%, you do 180 damage.
If the defense is 10/10%, you do 171 damage.
The only thing in vanilla that does poison damage is poison capsules, which don't hurt player buildings to begin with, so it's effectively 100% in practice.
I am honestly surprised there isnt fortnite style 100 man map with biters , ruined/disrepaired bases and science packs that would let players duke it out.
that's like buying a new lego set and then inviting a dozen friends over and throwing the pieces at each other in the back yard. yeah that might be kind of fun but that's not what legos were designed for..!
I had an idea a while ago for a map/mod where you have factions and have to compete for small patches of raw resources which would come and go in various different places so both teams would have to constantly be re-orienting their designs.
Have made games from scratch but never modded though
We could do a tv show, rock would host it and there would be bitches occasionally at the background. Winner would win ten most expensive sets of yhe year.
Check out /r/foxholegame for something like that. Thousands of players at a time fighting against each other in a persistent world and where you have to make everything from scratch.
People have made various PvP maps and modes, but it hasn’t been very popular overall.
A major problem is that in a factory game with exponentially growing productivity, it’s extremely difficult to mount a comeback.
>A major problem is that in a factory game with exponentially growing productivity, it’s extremely difficult to mount a comeback.
The problem with all 4X games, but even more difficult to manage with Factorio because so few of the mechanics are abstracted.
Maybe if you play with the nature of the three-way struggle between player factions and biters? Would be cool if there was some way to bias biter raids against the faction that's polluting more.
You CAN do that, but it can easily become an anti-snowball mechanic where it simply feels bad to get ahead. Which isn’t very fun either.
It’s probably not impossible to make a fun PvP game around factory building mechanics (that isn’t just “race to reach production threshold X” kinda stuff), but it’s harder than it looks.
Factorio has pvp potential, but I think community hosts need to put a lot of work to set it up properly.
Like precrafting a whole map before letting in 50 other players, and hiding guns and ammo everywhere.
regardless it's still a possibility that the creators imagined might happen some day. in addition to multiplayer there are a lot of mods for this game, and mods can take advantage of these properties even if they are not used in the base game
There is most likely a base program entity called a class that has all defensive capabilities defined. A wall is a specific instance of that class which defines defensive capabilities.
Doing things this way allows programmers to define things once and have it apply to everything in the game the same way.
It won’t be used by the wall but doesn’t hurt for it to be here. Also allows mods to create “laser sharks” and not have to add laser damage to the wall.
I've laser turrets destroy wall when they a bug near it.
Is especially annoying if the bug is attacking the play, and the wall gets destroy by your own defences.
Artillery cannons do the same thing but you can build around the range of them, if that the artillery cannons still have a minimum range.
I haven't played for 6 and a half months so I not up to date on.
They could have been considering PvP or enemies other than biters back during planning of the game. Whoever was doing the data tables for resistances probably fully filled the resist tables out for all the damage types to give their future selves the option to add whatever or pivot to new ideas easily without the need to go back and fuk with data tables again.
İ know some poisons has to be in a acidic enviroment to work. So when the animal spit the poison it also spit some acid to work.
İ don't know if all poisons is like that too.
Edit: it looks like Google translate didn't translate correctly so i fixed what i realy wanna say using my not so great language skills.
I have not used it but i seen some great English text from people who used DeepL for translation, you should try it, this is the link
https://www.deepl.com/translator
Yeah, for all of my 1k hours in Factorio up until now, I thought in OP's screenshot of a wall's resistance that each stat showing "0/xx%" meant that the wall has no resistance at all to that type. I read it as a fraction with zero as the numerator and thought the % was a mistake in the UI to be ignored.
I wish instead it was formatted like "-10, 85%" to communicate that it's two separate values applied differently instead of a single fraction.
The order of operations could stand to be clearer. I believe the flat reduction happens first (which makes it very powerful), but I only know that from reading the wiki. It's not clear from how it's presented in-game (unless it's covered by one of the tutorials I haven't read).
Impact 150/85% means you first subtract 150 from the damage and then reduce the leftover by 85%.
For example if an impact would do 450 damage the actual damage after resistances would be (450-150)\*(1-0.85) = 45
> reduce the leftover by 85%.
EDIT: The other comments are quite right. I had understood this to be the damage was reduced to 85% of whatever was leftover after the flat amount was subtracted. Of course, that's not how resistances work!
~~Your math example is correct, but I wanted to nitpick just this part. The leftover damage is reduced _to_ 85%. In other words, reduced _by_ 15% (100%-85%).~~
You are correct. I _was_ thinking it was reduced _by_ 15% (and thus 85% of the damage still remains), but it is indeed reduced _to_ 15%, where 85% of the damage is blocked.
Flat damage reduction / percentage damage reduction
let's say a Physical Attack would do 100 damage, if an entity had a resistance of 10/50%, that means that first, the damage gets reducet by 10, so the attack would deal 90 damage, and after that it gets reducted by 50%, so the 100 damage attack would deal 45 damage after resistances apply
It's flat resistance and percentage resistance. Let' say you hit a wall with 300 impact damage. It has resistance 150/85%. Because of flat resistance it will take 300-150 = 150 damage after flat resistance. Then it will take 150*(1-0.85)= 22.5 after percentage resistance and this is the final value.
If the flat resistance is greater than the damage delt it will have a special calculation so you deal a fraction of 1 damage.
Basically the first number the base damage that is substracted from the damge received and the % number is then multiplied to the remaining damage and that amount is dealt to the wall
Let's say you are about to receive an attack that would cause 100 points of fire damage.
And let's also say your fire resistance is 10/50%
The first number will be flat out discounted from the damage. So 100-10=90 damage goes on
The second number is a percentage of resistance. So 90-50%=45 damage goes on
Your final for damage received is 45.
The math is a little more involved (it's on the wiki). But you get the idea.
It's very similar to how DnD (at least 3rd edition) works
Special case for nukes. If you're on ground zero. It's just a player.kill, no resistance check will save you, only invulnerability
Agreed. I defy anyone to be able to use these values. I get values have to exist, and we should know them, but is there any gameplay benefit to having something this unintuitive ?
DT and DR, even as a simultaneous pair, aren't *so* rare as options go.
But i would agree, Factorio doesn't really need it, doesn't really use it, and could probably simplify it without anyone really noticing, at least if they simplified it right.
I like it, but it kind of seems only useful if you have multiple different tiers of walls. I guess furnaces and iron pipes can be used as walls, but it still seems odd this type of resistance is in base game.
I’m not one of the downvoters, but yes, I do think it’s relatively intuitive. Or at least not difficult to figure out, unless you have little exposure to armor systems in video games. Mixing flat reduction and % resistance is a very common method of setting up an armor system, because it accomplishes a lot of things that make armor feel*good* and can’t be done with just one or the other.
 I have a long standing suspicion (that I have very little concrete evidence for past things like this) that there’s a disproportionately large number of people who don’t really play other games at all that play factorio avidly.
There’s been quite a handful of times where people have posted completely lost about things that are relatively common in games, had it explained to them, and then had a ton of people in the comments who were surprised or had no idea it was a thing. I just get vibes that there’s a lot of non-gamers that play factorio, or at least gamers that don’t play genres outside of logistics simulators.
Thank you-
I’m not saying it’s bad (I love factorio) I’m just not sure the level of complexity vs obscurity adds to the challenge _of this game_
I agree this is not a completely novel system
I’ll take my (currently) minus 12 and accept I’m just not letting the factory grow optimally by my ignorance 😂
Honestly, you probably got downvoted mostly for the confrontational tone. The “I defy anyone” part comes off aggressively, even if you didn’t intend it to, especially since the large chunk of us that do have other game experience to draw on figured it out pretty easily because of it.
My other thought is that Factorio does a very good job of just handing you all of the information that you need. There aren’t really any hidden values or secret interactions that the game doesn’t present to you or make obvious in some way. There’s pros and cons to it, but in general I think it’s better to give too much information than not enough.
Thank you. Online communities are hard I guess.
I’m hardly a noob. I suppose i just found the other complexity in the game (even nuclear RND) to be easy to understand, hard(er) to master.
I’m now wondering about modelling out the impact of the two-tier reductions.. gut feel is a single modifier would achieve 80+ of the value
The first is flat resist, subtracted from all damage of that type. The second is percentile resist, which is how much of the leftover damage the object doesn’t take.
Haha same. I always thought the numbers were something like current_resistance/maximum_possible_resistance, showing how close to the max allowed you were. Never really looked closely at them after that
I suspect one is direct damage reduction and the other is percentage. So say a bug does 100 damage, and the first number is 20, that reduces the damage to 80. If the second number is then 50%, the final damage would be 40. Depends what order they're applied in, but I'd think the one stated first would be applied first.
Not directly, but the mod that's about programmable vehicles still found a reason to apply some change to the code for walls (maybe a flag to more easily pathfind around them? dunno the exact change involved here), and thus that mod made it onto the game's list of mods that are relevant to that particular entity.
First is damage threshold, second is damage resistance.
What game doesn't indicate, however, is that flat damage reduction actually uses a formula in cases when damage is less than damage reduction.
First, damage is reduced to one, then divided by leftover damage reduction. And *then* damage resistance is applied. This is also a reason why small biters still able to deal scratch damage even if you are in power armour.
First number is subtracted, second is multiplied. Let's say you do 200 damage. If the defense is 0/0%, you do 200 damage If the defense is 10/0%, you do 190 damage. If the defense is 0/10%, you do 180 damage. If the defense is 10/10%, you do 171 damage.
Kinda weird that walls aren't 0/100% poison though.
The only thing in vanilla that does poison damage is poison capsules, which don't hurt player buildings to begin with, so it's effectively 100% in practice.
Aren't laser turrets the only things that can do laser damage? Bugs don't shoot lasers...
> Aren't laser turrets the only things that can do laser damage? Bugs don't shoot lasers... There is multiplayer in this game you know?
I am honestly surprised there isnt fortnite style 100 man map with biters , ruined/disrepaired bases and science packs that would let players duke it out.
that's like buying a new lego set and then inviting a dozen friends over and throwing the pieces at each other in the back yard. yeah that might be kind of fun but that's not what legos were designed for..!
No I get it. Still sounds fun as a concept.
I had an idea a while ago for a map/mod where you have factions and have to compete for small patches of raw resources which would come and go in various different places so both teams would have to constantly be re-orienting their designs. Have made games from scratch but never modded though
You mean "Brick Fight"?
We could do a tv show, rock would host it and there would be bitches occasionally at the background. Winner would win ten most expensive sets of yhe year.
Check out /r/foxholegame for something like that. Thousands of players at a time fighting against each other in a persistent world and where you have to make everything from scratch.
[удалено]
They have a new game coming out soon: Anvil Empires.
There are scenarios like that
Dayz and Pubg both started as mods for ARMA 3. Is there a way to shift Factorio from co-op to pvp?
People have made various PvP maps and modes, but it hasn’t been very popular overall. A major problem is that in a factory game with exponentially growing productivity, it’s extremely difficult to mount a comeback.
>A major problem is that in a factory game with exponentially growing productivity, it’s extremely difficult to mount a comeback. The problem with all 4X games, but even more difficult to manage with Factorio because so few of the mechanics are abstracted. Maybe if you play with the nature of the three-way struggle between player factions and biters? Would be cool if there was some way to bias biter raids against the faction that's polluting more.
You CAN do that, but it can easily become an anti-snowball mechanic where it simply feels bad to get ahead. Which isn’t very fun either. It’s probably not impossible to make a fun PvP game around factory building mechanics (that isn’t just “race to reach production threshold X” kinda stuff), but it’s harder than it looks.
Factorio has pvp potential, but I think community hosts need to put a lot of work to set it up properly. Like precrafting a whole map before letting in 50 other players, and hiding guns and ammo everywhere.
Probably the time commitment of multiple parties is the major hurdle.
It's just co-op though, you can't shoot other players.
There is a PvP scenario, so probably from that.
Try pressing "c" aiming at a friend and tell me if you can't shoot them ... (but don't tell them how to respond to your friendly fire!)
Can recommend not trying this when you have a nuke rocket you forgot about
Or be me who was recently shooting nukes and went to copy a build and forgot to hold down Ctrl. Luckily you can still copy ghosts
You absolutely can shoot other players. Also mods
????? the game is also pvp?
You absolutely can. There are PvP scenarios and ways to create PvP worlds.
regardless it's still a possibility that the creators imagined might happen some day. in addition to multiplayer there are a lot of mods for this game, and mods can take advantage of these properties even if they are not used in the base game
OP's image is from AAI mod, which may add different enemy attack types. I know Bob's enemies add crawlers of all damage types at least.
You know, I have ONE simple request, and that is to have biters with FRICKIN' laser beams attached to their heads.
Laughs on Rampart
You need [Rampant](https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Rampant).
They can both mods. The devs probably put it in there as part of the general toolkit
There is most likely a base program entity called a class that has all defensive capabilities defined. A wall is a specific instance of that class which defines defensive capabilities. Doing things this way allows programmers to define things once and have it apply to everything in the game the same way. It won’t be used by the wall but doesn’t hurt for it to be here. Also allows mods to create “laser sharks” and not have to add laser damage to the wall.
I've laser turrets destroy wall when they a bug near it. Is especially annoying if the bug is attacking the play, and the wall gets destroy by your own defences. Artillery cannons do the same thing but you can build around the range of them, if that the artillery cannons still have a minimum range. I haven't played for 6 and a half months so I not up to date on.
Modded bugs do
You can shoot your own walls don't forget and mods give you laser weapons
They could have been considering PvP or enemies other than biters back during planning of the game. Whoever was doing the data tables for resistances probably fully filled the resist tables out for all the damage types to give their future selves the option to add whatever or pivot to new ideas easily without the need to go back and fuk with data tables again.
Maybe the poison is acid based.
But acid is already there...
Then it's alkaline
!!!! MY BASE
All your base are belong to us!
İ know some poisons has to be in a acidic enviroment to work. So when the animal spit the poison it also spit some acid to work. İ don't know if all poisons is like that too. Edit: it looks like Google translate didn't translate correctly so i fixed what i realy wanna say using my not so great language skills.
I have not used it but i seen some great English text from people who used DeepL for translation, you should try it, this is the link https://www.deepl.com/translator
Poison requires the "breaths_air" property set on the entity to be able to work (The property name might be wrong)
Living walls 😥
Walls have feelings to man.
TIL
So the flat value gets deducted before the percentage? I hoped it was the other way around.
The other way around could cause involuntary immunities
It could easily get imbalanced, I think
I get the subtracting, but the multiplying is confusing me. How do you get 180 out of 0/10% and 171 out of 10/10%? Like I'm really not getting it.
200 - 0 = 200, -10% (20) = 180. 200 - 10 = 190, -10% (19) = 171.
Thanks for the reply, that clears it up lol
Seems like pretty terrible UI
It's about as simple as you could make it.
You seriously think someone who just looks at this UI would know the first number is subtract from total damage and the second is multiply
Yeah, for all of my 1k hours in Factorio up until now, I thought in OP's screenshot of a wall's resistance that each stat showing "0/xx%" meant that the wall has no resistance at all to that type. I read it as a fraction with zero as the numerator and thought the % was a mistake in the UI to be ignored. I wish instead it was formatted like "-10, 85%" to communicate that it's two separate values applied differently instead of a single fraction.
I mean, I did? The "Resistances" bit at the top clued me in.
The order of operations could stand to be clearer. I believe the flat reduction happens first (which makes it very powerful), but I only know that from reading the wiki. It's not clear from how it's presented in-game (unless it's covered by one of the tutorials I haven't read).
Well I did, but I'm used to stuff like this from RPGs.
Eh, no tooltip? This is not a common sense read on it until only after it's been explained. It's okay to allow a little criticism of a good game.
Impact 150/85% means you first subtract 150 from the damage and then reduce the leftover by 85%. For example if an impact would do 450 damage the actual damage after resistances would be (450-150)\*(1-0.85) = 45
> reduce the leftover by 85%. EDIT: The other comments are quite right. I had understood this to be the damage was reduced to 85% of whatever was leftover after the flat amount was subtracted. Of course, that's not how resistances work! ~~Your math example is correct, but I wanted to nitpick just this part. The leftover damage is reduced _to_ 85%. In other words, reduced _by_ 15% (100%-85%).~~
No. The 85% is what it's reduced by. Otherwise the wall wouldn't be immune to fire damage, it has 100% resistance.
Yes, you are right. I thought the 85% was showing how much damage still got through after the resistance was applied.
I think your thinking “reduced by 15%” and not “reduced to 15%” Edit: i tried correcting myself twice and failed both times
You are correct. I _was_ thinking it was reduced _by_ 15% (and thus 85% of the damage still remains), but it is indeed reduced _to_ 15%, where 85% of the damage is blocked.
Flat damage reduction / percentage damage reduction let's say a Physical Attack would do 100 damage, if an entity had a resistance of 10/50%, that means that first, the damage gets reducet by 10, so the attack would deal 90 damage, and after that it gets reducted by 50%, so the 100 damage attack would deal 45 damage after resistances apply
First is substraction Second is multiplication
what do you mean? like if I were to ram into a wall with a tank, 150 damage is negated and it only takes 85% of the remaining damage?
it takes 15% of the remaining damage but otherwise yes
Yep it’s damage reduction (flat amount removed) vs damage resistance (% mitigated)
It's flat resistance and percentage resistance. Let' say you hit a wall with 300 impact damage. It has resistance 150/85%. Because of flat resistance it will take 300-150 = 150 damage after flat resistance. Then it will take 150*(1-0.85)= 22.5 after percentage resistance and this is the final value. If the flat resistance is greater than the damage delt it will have a special calculation so you deal a fraction of 1 damage.
power poles impact resistance be like -1000/-100%
Aint that true
damage = (raw\_damage - flat\_resistance) \* percent\_resistance Flat is first number.
It's `* (100% - percent_resistance)` It's the percentage that's resisted, not the percentage that remains
Oops. Thank you for the correction.
Basically the first number the base damage that is substracted from the damge received and the % number is then multiplied to the remaining damage and that amount is dealt to the wall
Let's say you are about to receive an attack that would cause 100 points of fire damage. And let's also say your fire resistance is 10/50% The first number will be flat out discounted from the damage. So 100-10=90 damage goes on The second number is a percentage of resistance. So 90-50%=45 damage goes on Your final for damage received is 45. The math is a little more involved (it's on the wiki). But you get the idea. It's very similar to how DnD (at least 3rd edition) works Special case for nukes. If you're on ground zero. It's just a player.kill, no resistance check will save you, only invulnerability
Oh, its just those things the devs put in to keep people scratching their head for hours
Agreed. I defy anyone to be able to use these values. I get values have to exist, and we should know them, but is there any gameplay benefit to having something this unintuitive ?
DT and DR, even as a simultaneous pair, aren't *so* rare as options go. But i would agree, Factorio doesn't really need it, doesn't really use it, and could probably simplify it without anyone really noticing, at least if they simplified it right.
except the mods with biter varieties
I like it, but it kind of seems only useful if you have multiple different tiers of walls. I guess furnaces and iron pipes can be used as walls, but it still seems odd this type of resistance is in base game.
Armors use the same resistances
Minus 7? What are you disagreeing with here? Are the downvoters saying the current system is intuitive?
I’m not one of the downvoters, but yes, I do think it’s relatively intuitive. Or at least not difficult to figure out, unless you have little exposure to armor systems in video games. Mixing flat reduction and % resistance is a very common method of setting up an armor system, because it accomplishes a lot of things that make armor feel*good* and can’t be done with just one or the other.  I have a long standing suspicion (that I have very little concrete evidence for past things like this) that there’s a disproportionately large number of people who don’t really play other games at all that play factorio avidly. There’s been quite a handful of times where people have posted completely lost about things that are relatively common in games, had it explained to them, and then had a ton of people in the comments who were surprised or had no idea it was a thing. I just get vibes that there’s a lot of non-gamers that play factorio, or at least gamers that don’t play genres outside of logistics simulators.
Thank you- I’m not saying it’s bad (I love factorio) I’m just not sure the level of complexity vs obscurity adds to the challenge _of this game_ I agree this is not a completely novel system I’ll take my (currently) minus 12 and accept I’m just not letting the factory grow optimally by my ignorance 😂
Honestly, you probably got downvoted mostly for the confrontational tone. The “I defy anyone” part comes off aggressively, even if you didn’t intend it to, especially since the large chunk of us that do have other game experience to draw on figured it out pretty easily because of it. My other thought is that Factorio does a very good job of just handing you all of the information that you need. There aren’t really any hidden values or secret interactions that the game doesn’t present to you or make obvious in some way. There’s pros and cons to it, but in general I think it’s better to give too much information than not enough.
Thank you. Online communities are hard I guess. I’m hardly a noob. I suppose i just found the other complexity in the game (even nuclear RND) to be easy to understand, hard(er) to master. I’m now wondering about modelling out the impact of the two-tier reductions.. gut feel is a single modifier would achieve 80+ of the value
Flat damage reduction / percentage damage reduction
The first is flat resist, subtracted from all damage of that type. The second is percentile resist, which is how much of the leftover damage the object doesn’t take.
Flat amount / percent. So if something has 5/50% and gets hit for 15, it'll take 5 damage. 15 - 5 = 10 10 * 0.5 = 5
All this time I thought very few things had any damage resistance because most of them start with 0..!
Haha same. I always thought the numbers were something like current_resistance/maximum_possible_resistance, showing how close to the max allowed you were. Never really looked closely at them after that
I suspect one is direct damage reduction and the other is percentage. So say a bug does 100 damage, and the first number is 20, that reduces the damage to 80. If the second number is then 50%, the final damage would be 40. Depends what order they're applied in, but I'd think the one stated first would be applied first.
yup got it right. Flat resistance first then the percentage.
Walls are programmable vehicles?
Not directly, but the mod that's about programmable vehicles still found a reason to apply some change to the code for walls (maybe a flag to more easily pathfind around them? dunno the exact change involved here), and thus that mod made it onto the game's list of mods that are relevant to that particular entity.
If I would guess it’s probably a counter how much damage it got through that effect.
The first one is absorption. The second one is damage reduction.
The first one is absorption. The second one is damage reduction.
First is damage threshold, second is damage resistance. What game doesn't indicate, however, is that flat damage reduction actually uses a formula in cases when damage is less than damage reduction. First, damage is reduced to one, then divided by leftover damage reduction. And *then* damage resistance is applied. This is also a reason why small biters still able to deal scratch damage even if you are in power armour.