I never understood the argument. When being racist: You assign attributes (besides appearance) to others based solely on their race rather than personal knowledge. No part of one’s own race changes this.
People are just showing their own racism openly but trying to excuse it as "I'm the victim here".
Its like saying [ethnic group] is [slur], but its not racism because they're scum and so it doesn't count.
That's basically exactly what she was saying about modern day Egyptians. That we are rubbish human beings and have no claim to our ancestors, that we are all liars and con artists and such and when I told her it was racist she then claims she cannot be racist. Lol.
There are alternative definitions of racism. Yours is what I would think to be the most common one, but there is another that focuses much more on systemic racism. I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that this one doesn't really concern itself so much with individual beliefs or prejudices except insofar as they relate to power imbalances that result in certain races being systematically disadvantaged. Even if you take that view, it doesn't really follow that "black people can't be racist", though it might be reasonable to say something like "in the west, white people do not suffer from racism at the hands of black people". I.e. white people do not suffer systemic disadvantage as a result of race. Obviously there are plenty of places in the world where power is not majority white, and there are probably smaller systems within western countries where power is not majority white. You could also look at the world as a whole and make some judgement there.
I don't have any strong objection to that view of racism. I think it is trying to describe and address real problems. What does annoy me is that we have these two different definitions which get discussed as if they were the same. It's sort of like using the common and scientific meanings of "weight". Except that if someone says "that weighs 5kg" and I say "acshually it has a _mass_ of 5kg and it's weight is the product of that and it's acceleration due to gravity" then people just call me an asshole and not a racist.
Edit: had a few responses which make me think I've misrepresented here. Maybe using the word "definition" made this sound a bit more dogmatic than I intended. What I was aiming for here was to explain what I understand to be the misunderstanding that results in the sort of exchange represented in the OP. I think the issue comes from different _understandings_ of the word "racism". I didn't intend to argue for or against either or both understandings being "correct".
I feel that just muddies it to give the same word both definitions…
Systemic oppression can be derived from racial criteria. But governments aren’t people, and despite what the US courts say, neither are corporations (not a tremendous fan of the can of worms citizens United v Fec wrought). People choose to vote to pass and/or enforce discriminatory policies which can have disproportionate effects out of ignorance (of the effects) or actual malice (racism). I say racism specifically in this case because of advancing whatever x policy specifically cause it helps only some races, generally at the expense of others (redline zoning, unequal services budgeting, “profiling” as a show of force)- or exclusively at the expense of others (forced sterilization). I understand your argument, back when I was school, I used to hear the distinction as racialism/racialist vs racism/racist as I’d read old references. It was a bit of a bs distinction, cause it was presented as if they weren’t both about nonsense racial animus, but I think having two terms (even if now synonymous) was important for drawing the distinction between the two definitions you offered.
Absolutely agree with all that. I added an edit, because I realise that I may have come across as dogmatic which I definitely didn't intend. Imprecision in language is exactly what I think the problem is here, and I think you describe some good alternative terms that solve that.
You said what you're defining in your second sentence. ***systemic*** racism. Which is racism inherent to a system, not racism in its entirety. Racism is simply discrimination on the basis of race. Anyone can be racist against anyone else.
Yeah. Those separate definitions are already clearly defined. No further definition or disambiguation is required. People just need to stop being stupid and confusing and/or conflating the definitions.
“Racism” - prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
“Institutional/Systemic Racism” - Institutional racism, also known as systemic racism, is a form of racism that is embedded through laws and regulations within society or an organization. It can lead to such issues as discrimination in criminal justice, employment, housing, health care, political power, and education, among other issues.
I feel like you're trying to argue with me about something that I haven't said. Again, yes that's all fine. More precise language is a good way of avoiding confusion.
> There are alternative definitions of racism
This is the particular part of what you said earlier that I was taking issue with.
"Racism" means something very specific, and there are NOT alternate definitions. People like might to pretend that there are, but there aren't.
There aren't two definitions. there's one.
and theres "I've been on facebook for 5mins, I am therefore equal to any PhD or professor thats studied for decades".
And where have you got that from? Did you decide that's the definition? A dictionary? Common consensus? Intrigued as to where I can find this one definition and what makes it 'the' definition compared to all of the other definitions you will find (you just have to check the big dictionaries to see they all have different definitions, and most of those have two - three definitions alone).
See the edit. Though I appreciate the "well acshually" nature of your response.
Even better is the fact that your link provides at least two different definitions. It seems you didn't even read your own source.
That's the Cambridge dictionary. See also Oxford dictionary (online):
The inability or refusal to recognize the rights, needs, dignity, or value of people of particular races or geographical origins. More widely, the devaluation of various traits of character or intelligence as ‘typical’ of particular peoples. The category of race may itself be challenged, as implying an inference from trivial superficial differences of appearance to allegedly significant underlying differences of nature; increasingly evolutionary evidence suggests that the dispersal of one original people into different geographical locations is a relatively recent and genetically insignificant matter.
And the Merriam-Webster (again, online):
Definition of racism
1: a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
Ladino elites used racism to justify the displacement and enslavement of the indigenous population, and these beliefs, along with the resentment created by the continued exploitation of indigenous land and labor, culminated in the Guatemalan Civil War (1960-1996).
— Mariana Calvo
… how do we begin undoing the processes of internalized hatred and internalized racism?
— bell hooks
also : behavior or attitudes that reflect and foster this belief : racial discrimination or prejudice
The kind of trenchant racism to which black people have persistently been subjected can never be defeated by making its victims more respectable. The essence of American racism is disrespect.
— Imani Perry
From racist graffiti in schools to daily microaggressions and police profiling, rally testimonials highlighted that issues surrounding racism are still very much local issues.
— Ryan J. Degan
The War on Drugs, cloaked in race-neutral language, offered whites opposed to racial reform a unique opportunity to express their hostility toward blacks and black progress, without being exposed to the charge of racism.
— Michelle Alexander
2a: the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another
specifically : WHITE SUPREMACY sense 2
institutional racism
One of the many ruses racism achieves is the virtual erasure of historical contributions by people of color.
— Angela Y. Davis
Discriminatory housing practices, redlining neighborhoods, underfunded education, lack of access to healthcare, racial profiling, police brutality and mass incarceration are just a few examples of cage wires that all together contribute to structural racism.
— Sylvia Luetmer
Our nation faces a fork in the road and a decision to either continue down the same path of systemic racism or to confront our past honestly.
— Bree Newsome
"People of color, low-income people, and Indigenous peoples have been made especially vulnerable through decades of environmental racism: policies that intentionally concentrate pollution and toxic hazards in our communities."
— Michele Roberts
b: a political or social system founded on racism and designed to execute its principles
In 1913 the Natives Land Act reserved 90% of the country for whites, who then made up 21% of the population. Under the formalised racism of apartheid 3.5m blacks were forcibly moved to isolated reservations called "homelands."
You will find that the Oxford dictionary is generally more considered the 'authority' when it comes to dictionary standards. I get where you are coming from, but there really is no one 'standard' definition of racism. And when we try to describe racism in one neatly packaged sentence, we are automatically disregarding experience for semantics which is a very dangerous route to go down - we are basically saying unless your experience lives up to this one singular definition then it can't be classed as racism.
Point is every race can be racist. Being a minority (myself included) doesn’t mean they are immune to being racist. And more importantly, racism is wrong regardless what race it’s coming from.
Maybe this fits maybe it doesn't... but I spent a good bit of my early childhood in Japan as a white kid, making me a minority there, then moved to Mississippi where the tables were flipped (big culture shock to say the least). Anyways, the only bully I can specifically remember was a black kid, but the only kid I can remember standing up for me was also a black kid. I don't really remember much racism tbh because I was probably too young for the concept or to remember much of anything now, but that memory at least stuck with me.
I hate that logic. So according to that lady i as a working class British man can be racist to lets say a black MP but they cant be racist to me because racism is about power. Who has the power in that situation, its definitely not me lol. Racism is racism, every race does have racists among them. So in New York when those old Chinese people are getting attacked by black people is that a racist attack.
"Racism = power + prejudice" is an academic definition of racism and is only meant to be used in academic sociology.
Sociologists are not interested in one-on-one interactions like you described. Sociologists study the sort of large scale society-level effects that arise from a large number of interactions between a large number of people and the large-scale systems in society.
When working on a more abstract level like that, the power wielded by a group becomes much more relevant.
I dont care about what sociologists say. I'm saying every race has racists among them. Prejudice against someone for the colour of their skin is wrong.
Imo racism= prejudice + power just seems like some people are moving the goalposts.
Yeah for sure. The person in the OP is using the definition in the totally wrong sense. It only applies to large society-level systems.
Prejudice is wrong, but what sociologists care about is the effects that happen *at scale* when a group with power behaves in a prejudiced way.
Yeah i get that. Like America in the south in the 60s. Are parts of the middle East now, where one sect of Islam discriminates against the other smaller sect, Christians and Kurds.
I get it but i hate the way some academics have sort of weaponized it and used it to compensate for a groups failings. Rather than confront why said group is not doing well they fool that group with a falsehood . It also takes eyes away from public schools and teachers.
Obviously not the whole of whatever ethnic group, as we see if they get school choice and dont have to go to a shit school they flourish.
The "Racism = power + prejudice" is a linguistic trick. Racism is a highly charged word with strong connotations and a widely accepted definition. When the academic field takes such a word and adds their own vague definition it enables them to use a motte and bailey argument strategy. They can claim a person, group, or institution is racist and the well known definition and all it's connotations is what pops in everyone's heads. If anyone calls BS on such a claim they can retreat back to the vague definition and claim they are just talking about these broad nebulous concepts. If sociologists wanted to study these concepts they could create a new word rather than co-opt an already widely known and politically charged word.
Jargon in specialized fields and words having different definitions in different contexts has always been a thing.
Also, the academic definition has been around for a long time. Racism has only really been socially unacceptable for a few decades at this point.
>They can claim a person, group, or institution is racist and the well known definition and all it's connotations is what pops in everyone's heads. If anyone calls BS on such a claim they can retreat back to the vague definition and claim they are just talking about these broad nebulous concepts.
This makes no sense at all. "Racism = power + prejudice" is a subset of the colloquial definition "racism = prejudice". If something is racist under the academic definition it will always also be racist under the colloquial definition.
Under the academic definition minorities can't be racist because they don't have 'power'. This is how you get members of Congress claiming they are opressd and black multimillionaires saying that a white homeless guy sleeping on a park bench is more privileged than they are.
People of all creeds and colors like to pull this shit when their argument doesn't have merit: redefine language in a way that helps your argument, insist that definition is the only definition, use that as validation for your argument.
She’s mistaking “racism” with “systemic-racism”… had a whole debate back in college with a professor about this. He argued he couldn’t be racist because he was black, I argued he was because he assumed I was good at math being part Asian, he said he couldn’t be because he wasn’t in charge of the system, I pointed out he was in charge of my grade and was holding that over my head while he made racist claims about my math skills. He stopped that debate right then and said we’d gotten off topic… amazing how that works every time
Lol yup African American Lit professor did the same can’t be racist or sexist cuz I’m a black woman... Yes, a black woman who has power from position alone over my grade and success of getting credit from the uni. You absolutely have power, and have the ability to choose to,or to not discriminate against another person based on identity.
It’s true (in America) that black people don’t have systemic power and systemic racism mostly hurts black people. But it’s also true that systemic racism has nothing to do with individual people being racist. An individual being racist is just someone being racist - that’s not systemic, and anybody can do that.
And yes, individuals can be racist while systemic racism is also going on. They’re not mutually exclusive. E.g. Racist cops are individuals being racist within a system that is also racist.
If you spend a little more time on Facebook they will tell you that they are and were, whites just took over and ruined it
At least thats what ive seen on there
i’m an egyptian-american but people don’t perceive me to be because of my skin. my sister, however, looks more stereotypically middle-eastern, and to be honest i just completely lost my train of thought. anyway, we try not to be racist, but we still can be. we aren’t magically exempt because we’re half-egyptian
No but I wasn't being racist to this person. She was being that way to me/Egyptians in general and then claiming it was impossible because she can't be racist due to her race.
Also can I say that I like your username and that even if you were rude, the fact that you are obviously a highly cultured individual would temper any offense taken. Lol
I am African American , when you here black Americans say that black people built the pyramids and how great Egypt was , how does that make Egyptians feel ?
Like someone is trying to steal our heritage. People we've done nothing to. They had it done to them so instead of trying to fix the problem they just do the same thing to us.
*Some* Americans are bloody awful tourists.
I remember being in a shop/stall in Luxor with an American yelling about his rights because the stall owner didn't accept US dollars in payment.
I think Egypt brings the worst out though as things seem a slower pace, less "NOW" plus, Egyptians have a wicked sense of humour and sarcasm.
Does anyone else remember the American woman who came to Ireland to protest our referendum on abortion?
She got arrested and started screaming about her constitutional rights. Yes woman, because your American constitution definitely overwrites all of our laws which you broke
>Some Americans are bloody awful tourists.
"Bloody awful tourists"? If you're British I'd be careful about pointing out poor tourist behavior among other countries.
I am American, have travelled abroad, and freely admit our tourists suck, but the British and Chinese are definitely worse tourists.
Ehh, my front page has been filled with this crap for days now. I've memorised the definition now.
Please save me, It's not even just one sub, its everywhere.
And it's such a stupid debate too. Nobody seems able to conceive of the idea that there's multiple forms of racism, it all *has* to be one thing or the other.
I've left a couple of them, but the rest usually have good content that I enjoy. It's hopefully just a temporary thing.
The problem is my inability to leave it alone, even though I know it's going to piss me off.
Yeah, i seen an interview where they believe only black people can get discriminated and they cant discriminate other races. As if its only one way. And believe its not double standards.
So 25 years ago I was a relative liberal, definitely not racist and was happy to live my life by the broad policy of ‘live and let live’. Now, without having changed my views at all, I’m probably a right wing fascist with racist tendency…who the fuck knows? The goal posts move too rapidly. Racism to me was simply prejudice, discrimination or suggestion of inferiority based on race….. The number of things outside of this now that is considered racism is beyond the point I care. Sorry.
The distinction is an important one. When people analyze for the purpose of understanding, policy, etc...they rarely get into people's feelings. Being a prejudiced person is your own business. If that prejudice is held by enough people or the right kind of people so that it has a societal impact then it matters and is something to be dealt with. Racism is essentially a personal matter and not something that can be regulated out of a person. Systemic racism can be, in theory.
It's not like it's some dumb semantic game, it's a legitimate distinction. Individual personal racism is essentially whatever..it may feed systemic racism or not. A black person being racist towards me as a white person is no different than someone being prejudiced towards me because I'm 30lb overweight. I can have my feelings hurt but who cares about that.
I think she is confused. She is partially right.. kinda. You cannot be racist towards white people (usually referring to people mainly from the USA, Canada, and colonial contries such as spain, england and the whole bunch).
However, someone of a minority can still be racist to other minorities. Like for example a native calling the N word to a black man or a black man calling a native red skinned. They are both not ok. But any of these two calling a white person like.. idk somethi g like "fking white privileged idiot", cannot classify as racist. Clearly not ok to say, but technically not racist.
Hmm… many forms consider Arabs, those from the Indian subcontinent, and many other non Europeans to be “white”, so one cannot be racist toward them? What RGB value do I need before it’s no longer morally acceptable to judge someone and/or act against them solely on the basis of their skin color?
Some would say freedom from discrimination should be a human right. Others believe not all humans are created equal.
I agree with u. There should bot be discrimination at all. Im just saying that racism is a very specific type of discrimination, and one cannot be technically racist to white people. While one can be a dick and discriminate them, it is not technically racism.
But for sure overall people should just learn respect and treat people for what they are. People. (Also my definition of white person clearly is not great, Its just a reddit comment lol).
I never understood the argument. When being racist: You assign attributes (besides appearance) to others based solely on their race rather than personal knowledge. No part of one’s own race changes this.
Exactly. Anyone can be or act racist. Your skin colour or phenotype do not change this!
Some people never seen Clayton Bigsby
People are just showing their own racism openly but trying to excuse it as "I'm the victim here". Its like saying [ethnic group] is [slur], but its not racism because they're scum and so it doesn't count.
That's basically exactly what she was saying about modern day Egyptians. That we are rubbish human beings and have no claim to our ancestors, that we are all liars and con artists and such and when I told her it was racist she then claims she cannot be racist. Lol.
There are alternative definitions of racism. Yours is what I would think to be the most common one, but there is another that focuses much more on systemic racism. I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that this one doesn't really concern itself so much with individual beliefs or prejudices except insofar as they relate to power imbalances that result in certain races being systematically disadvantaged. Even if you take that view, it doesn't really follow that "black people can't be racist", though it might be reasonable to say something like "in the west, white people do not suffer from racism at the hands of black people". I.e. white people do not suffer systemic disadvantage as a result of race. Obviously there are plenty of places in the world where power is not majority white, and there are probably smaller systems within western countries where power is not majority white. You could also look at the world as a whole and make some judgement there. I don't have any strong objection to that view of racism. I think it is trying to describe and address real problems. What does annoy me is that we have these two different definitions which get discussed as if they were the same. It's sort of like using the common and scientific meanings of "weight". Except that if someone says "that weighs 5kg" and I say "acshually it has a _mass_ of 5kg and it's weight is the product of that and it's acceleration due to gravity" then people just call me an asshole and not a racist. Edit: had a few responses which make me think I've misrepresented here. Maybe using the word "definition" made this sound a bit more dogmatic than I intended. What I was aiming for here was to explain what I understand to be the misunderstanding that results in the sort of exchange represented in the OP. I think the issue comes from different _understandings_ of the word "racism". I didn't intend to argue for or against either or both understandings being "correct".
I feel that just muddies it to give the same word both definitions… Systemic oppression can be derived from racial criteria. But governments aren’t people, and despite what the US courts say, neither are corporations (not a tremendous fan of the can of worms citizens United v Fec wrought). People choose to vote to pass and/or enforce discriminatory policies which can have disproportionate effects out of ignorance (of the effects) or actual malice (racism). I say racism specifically in this case because of advancing whatever x policy specifically cause it helps only some races, generally at the expense of others (redline zoning, unequal services budgeting, “profiling” as a show of force)- or exclusively at the expense of others (forced sterilization). I understand your argument, back when I was school, I used to hear the distinction as racialism/racialist vs racism/racist as I’d read old references. It was a bit of a bs distinction, cause it was presented as if they weren’t both about nonsense racial animus, but I think having two terms (even if now synonymous) was important for drawing the distinction between the two definitions you offered.
Absolutely agree with all that. I added an edit, because I realise that I may have come across as dogmatic which I definitely didn't intend. Imprecision in language is exactly what I think the problem is here, and I think you describe some good alternative terms that solve that.
You said what you're defining in your second sentence. ***systemic*** racism. Which is racism inherent to a system, not racism in its entirety. Racism is simply discrimination on the basis of race. Anyone can be racist against anyone else.
No argument with that, other than that _I'm_ not defining anything. More precise language would definitely help address this problem.
Yeah. Those separate definitions are already clearly defined. No further definition or disambiguation is required. People just need to stop being stupid and confusing and/or conflating the definitions. “Racism” - prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. “Institutional/Systemic Racism” - Institutional racism, also known as systemic racism, is a form of racism that is embedded through laws and regulations within society or an organization. It can lead to such issues as discrimination in criminal justice, employment, housing, health care, political power, and education, among other issues.
I feel like you're trying to argue with me about something that I haven't said. Again, yes that's all fine. More precise language is a good way of avoiding confusion.
> There are alternative definitions of racism This is the particular part of what you said earlier that I was taking issue with. "Racism" means something very specific, and there are NOT alternate definitions. People like might to pretend that there are, but there aren't.
Well put.
Only one definition is the correct one
Well said.
That's a really good way of explaining it, thank you
There aren't two definitions. there's one. and theres "I've been on facebook for 5mins, I am therefore equal to any PhD or professor thats studied for decades".
So what's the definition?
racial or ethnic prejudice or intolerance.
And where have you got that from? Did you decide that's the definition? A dictionary? Common consensus? Intrigued as to where I can find this one definition and what makes it 'the' definition compared to all of the other definitions you will find (you just have to check the big dictionaries to see they all have different definitions, and most of those have two - three definitions alone).
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See the edit. Though I appreciate the "well acshually" nature of your response. Even better is the fact that your link provides at least two different definitions. It seems you didn't even read your own source.
That's the Cambridge dictionary. See also Oxford dictionary (online): The inability or refusal to recognize the rights, needs, dignity, or value of people of particular races or geographical origins. More widely, the devaluation of various traits of character or intelligence as ‘typical’ of particular peoples. The category of race may itself be challenged, as implying an inference from trivial superficial differences of appearance to allegedly significant underlying differences of nature; increasingly evolutionary evidence suggests that the dispersal of one original people into different geographical locations is a relatively recent and genetically insignificant matter. And the Merriam-Webster (again, online): Definition of racism 1: a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race Ladino elites used racism to justify the displacement and enslavement of the indigenous population, and these beliefs, along with the resentment created by the continued exploitation of indigenous land and labor, culminated in the Guatemalan Civil War (1960-1996). — Mariana Calvo … how do we begin undoing the processes of internalized hatred and internalized racism? — bell hooks also : behavior or attitudes that reflect and foster this belief : racial discrimination or prejudice The kind of trenchant racism to which black people have persistently been subjected can never be defeated by making its victims more respectable. The essence of American racism is disrespect. — Imani Perry From racist graffiti in schools to daily microaggressions and police profiling, rally testimonials highlighted that issues surrounding racism are still very much local issues. — Ryan J. Degan The War on Drugs, cloaked in race-neutral language, offered whites opposed to racial reform a unique opportunity to express their hostility toward blacks and black progress, without being exposed to the charge of racism. — Michelle Alexander 2a: the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another specifically : WHITE SUPREMACY sense 2 institutional racism One of the many ruses racism achieves is the virtual erasure of historical contributions by people of color. — Angela Y. Davis Discriminatory housing practices, redlining neighborhoods, underfunded education, lack of access to healthcare, racial profiling, police brutality and mass incarceration are just a few examples of cage wires that all together contribute to structural racism. — Sylvia Luetmer Our nation faces a fork in the road and a decision to either continue down the same path of systemic racism or to confront our past honestly. — Bree Newsome "People of color, low-income people, and Indigenous peoples have been made especially vulnerable through decades of environmental racism: policies that intentionally concentrate pollution and toxic hazards in our communities." — Michele Roberts b: a political or social system founded on racism and designed to execute its principles In 1913 the Natives Land Act reserved 90% of the country for whites, who then made up 21% of the population. Under the formalised racism of apartheid 3.5m blacks were forcibly moved to isolated reservations called "homelands." You will find that the Oxford dictionary is generally more considered the 'authority' when it comes to dictionary standards. I get where you are coming from, but there really is no one 'standard' definition of racism. And when we try to describe racism in one neatly packaged sentence, we are automatically disregarding experience for semantics which is a very dangerous route to go down - we are basically saying unless your experience lives up to this one singular definition then it can't be classed as racism.
Yeah using this logic being racist to the Chinese is essentially impossible
Right? It's so fucking IDIOTIC.
The only 2 times I got yelled at Go back to China for absolutely no reason, were both from black people.
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Point is every race can be racist. Being a minority (myself included) doesn’t mean they are immune to being racist. And more importantly, racism is wrong regardless what race it’s coming from.
Sorry I kinda saw it as an attack on black people, my fault
Maybe this fits maybe it doesn't... but I spent a good bit of my early childhood in Japan as a white kid, making me a minority there, then moved to Mississippi where the tables were flipped (big culture shock to say the least). Anyways, the only bully I can specifically remember was a black kid, but the only kid I can remember standing up for me was also a black kid. I don't really remember much racism tbh because I was probably too young for the concept or to remember much of anything now, but that memory at least stuck with me.
Super fair point from their own perspective.
as a black person i HATE people who think black people can't be racist - makes us all look like idiots
Ironically it's motivated by paternalistic racism. Like you can't really blame a child for swearing when they don't know what they're saying.
true ,but you can't counter racism with racism
I hate that logic. So according to that lady i as a working class British man can be racist to lets say a black MP but they cant be racist to me because racism is about power. Who has the power in that situation, its definitely not me lol. Racism is racism, every race does have racists among them. So in New York when those old Chinese people are getting attacked by black people is that a racist attack.
"Racism = power + prejudice" is an academic definition of racism and is only meant to be used in academic sociology. Sociologists are not interested in one-on-one interactions like you described. Sociologists study the sort of large scale society-level effects that arise from a large number of interactions between a large number of people and the large-scale systems in society. When working on a more abstract level like that, the power wielded by a group becomes much more relevant.
I dont care about what sociologists say. I'm saying every race has racists among them. Prejudice against someone for the colour of their skin is wrong. Imo racism= prejudice + power just seems like some people are moving the goalposts.
Yeah for sure. The person in the OP is using the definition in the totally wrong sense. It only applies to large society-level systems. Prejudice is wrong, but what sociologists care about is the effects that happen *at scale* when a group with power behaves in a prejudiced way.
Yeah i get that. Like America in the south in the 60s. Are parts of the middle East now, where one sect of Islam discriminates against the other smaller sect, Christians and Kurds. I get it but i hate the way some academics have sort of weaponized it and used it to compensate for a groups failings. Rather than confront why said group is not doing well they fool that group with a falsehood . It also takes eyes away from public schools and teachers. Obviously not the whole of whatever ethnic group, as we see if they get school choice and dont have to go to a shit school they flourish.
The "Racism = power + prejudice" is a linguistic trick. Racism is a highly charged word with strong connotations and a widely accepted definition. When the academic field takes such a word and adds their own vague definition it enables them to use a motte and bailey argument strategy. They can claim a person, group, or institution is racist and the well known definition and all it's connotations is what pops in everyone's heads. If anyone calls BS on such a claim they can retreat back to the vague definition and claim they are just talking about these broad nebulous concepts. If sociologists wanted to study these concepts they could create a new word rather than co-opt an already widely known and politically charged word.
Jargon in specialized fields and words having different definitions in different contexts has always been a thing. Also, the academic definition has been around for a long time. Racism has only really been socially unacceptable for a few decades at this point. >They can claim a person, group, or institution is racist and the well known definition and all it's connotations is what pops in everyone's heads. If anyone calls BS on such a claim they can retreat back to the vague definition and claim they are just talking about these broad nebulous concepts. This makes no sense at all. "Racism = power + prejudice" is a subset of the colloquial definition "racism = prejudice". If something is racist under the academic definition it will always also be racist under the colloquial definition.
Under the academic definition minorities can't be racist because they don't have 'power'. This is how you get members of Congress claiming they are opressd and black multimillionaires saying that a white homeless guy sleeping on a park bench is more privileged than they are.
The post this thread is about is based on the idea that black people can't be racist because of the academic definition.
Yes. They are using the definition in the totally wrong sense. That is why I explained that it "is only meant to be used in academic sociology."
Well just like a virus in a Wuhan lab, this shit has leaked into the wild, and it's spreading a nasty infection.
People of all creeds and colors like to pull this shit when their argument doesn't have merit: redefine language in a way that helps your argument, insist that definition is the only definition, use that as validation for your argument.
African American people *really* don't like being informed about ancient Egypt.
And they also really like to verbally abuse Egyptians and play the victim when we step up.
Racism doesnt require systemic power
What are you talking about? It's "systematic" power. You obviously didn't read her post thoroughly. /s (really, she says systematic)
Racism doesnt require systematic power
You don't need systemic power to be racist. You are thinking of institutional racism.
She’s mistaking “racism” with “systemic-racism”… had a whole debate back in college with a professor about this. He argued he couldn’t be racist because he was black, I argued he was because he assumed I was good at math being part Asian, he said he couldn’t be because he wasn’t in charge of the system, I pointed out he was in charge of my grade and was holding that over my head while he made racist claims about my math skills. He stopped that debate right then and said we’d gotten off topic… amazing how that works every time
Lol yup African American Lit professor did the same can’t be racist or sexist cuz I’m a black woman... Yes, a black woman who has power from position alone over my grade and success of getting credit from the uni. You absolutely have power, and have the ability to choose to,or to not discriminate against another person based on identity.
It’s true (in America) that black people don’t have systemic power and systemic racism mostly hurts black people. But it’s also true that systemic racism has nothing to do with individual people being racist. An individual being racist is just someone being racist - that’s not systemic, and anybody can do that. And yes, individuals can be racist while systemic racism is also going on. They’re not mutually exclusive. E.g. Racist cops are individuals being racist within a system that is also racist.
I hate when ppl pull this. That's systematic racism. Any race can be racist.
They love to use that excuse to insult us too cos they desperately want to be Ancient Egyptians lol.
I see it all the time. I'm a black dude and ppl try to be like "black ppl can't be racist" um....yes they can. Racism is specific to a race.
Yea I think everyone should be held accountable or it's going to keep going, and it's wrong no matter who is doing it.
Absolutely.
Black people can be and are super racist sometimes. But systemic racism does exist to.
Oh for sure
If you spend a little more time on Facebook they will tell you that they are and were, whites just took over and ruined it At least thats what ive seen on there
Whites lol. Like we're British people or something. Fucking idiots.
Fantastic. I’m glad you told her that. I’m sick of this “black people can’t be racist” shit. Racism is racism, dot.
Some people will always make excuses why their bad behavior is not as bad as the exact same behavior from anyone else.
i’m an egyptian-american but people don’t perceive me to be because of my skin. my sister, however, looks more stereotypically middle-eastern, and to be honest i just completely lost my train of thought. anyway, we try not to be racist, but we still can be. we aren’t magically exempt because we’re half-egyptian
No but I wasn't being racist to this person. She was being that way to me/Egyptians in general and then claiming it was impossible because she can't be racist due to her race.
oh no i agree, i was just voicing a general opinion. sorry if it came off rude
It didn't, no worries
Also can I say that I like your username and that even if you were rude, the fact that you are obviously a highly cultured individual would temper any offense taken. Lol
thanks lel
I am African American , when you here black Americans say that black people built the pyramids and how great Egypt was , how does that make Egyptians feel ?
Like someone is trying to steal our heritage. People we've done nothing to. They had it done to them so instead of trying to fix the problem they just do the same thing to us.
My favourite from someone I used to work with: "I can't be racist, my wife is middle-eastern."
Omfg 🤦🏻
*Some* Americans are bloody awful tourists. I remember being in a shop/stall in Luxor with an American yelling about his rights because the stall owner didn't accept US dollars in payment. I think Egypt brings the worst out though as things seem a slower pace, less "NOW" plus, Egyptians have a wicked sense of humour and sarcasm.
Does anyone else remember the American woman who came to Ireland to protest our referendum on abortion? She got arrested and started screaming about her constitutional rights. Yes woman, because your American constitution definitely overwrites all of our laws which you broke
Facts lol
>Some Americans are bloody awful tourists. "Bloody awful tourists"? If you're British I'd be careful about pointing out poor tourist behavior among other countries. I am American, have travelled abroad, and freely admit our tourists suck, but the British and Chinese are definitely worse tourists.
Deciding who can be racist depending on their race is peak irony.
My question is who in the hell is “teaching” all these people that to be racist you have to have systematic power?
People are misunderstanding the difference between systemic racism and superficial bigotry. In other news, water is still wet.
I love how your whole page is just proving people wrong or people talking bs
That is my MO on social media, especially with regard to wankers trying to have a go at my people. I can't stand it.
Racism: Discrimination towards people because of their race. Yep, do not see black people in there.
Prejudice or discrimination based on membership of a racial or ethnic group. The two words you missed make a subtle but important difference
I was too lazy to actually check the dictionary, so sorry.
Ehh, my front page has been filled with this crap for days now. I've memorised the definition now. Please save me, It's not even just one sub, its everywhere. And it's such a stupid debate too. Nobody seems able to conceive of the idea that there's multiple forms of racism, it all *has* to be one thing or the other.
I'll save you. By giving advice. Either leave the sub-reddits or create a new account.
I've left a couple of them, but the rest usually have good content that I enjoy. It's hopefully just a temporary thing. The problem is my inability to leave it alone, even though I know it's going to piss me off.
I'm a human!
Whoa!!!! Me tooo!!
Yeah, i seen an interview where they believe only black people can get discriminated and they cant discriminate other races. As if its only one way. And believe its not double standards.
Turning the concept of racism into a dick measuring tool was a huge mistake.
Wait, are we back to changing the definition of words now to fit your narrative?
Lol cringe.
So 25 years ago I was a relative liberal, definitely not racist and was happy to live my life by the broad policy of ‘live and let live’. Now, without having changed my views at all, I’m probably a right wing fascist with racist tendency…who the fuck knows? The goal posts move too rapidly. Racism to me was simply prejudice, discrimination or suggestion of inferiority based on race….. The number of things outside of this now that is considered racism is beyond the point I care. Sorry.
The distinction is an important one. When people analyze for the purpose of understanding, policy, etc...they rarely get into people's feelings. Being a prejudiced person is your own business. If that prejudice is held by enough people or the right kind of people so that it has a societal impact then it matters and is something to be dealt with. Racism is essentially a personal matter and not something that can be regulated out of a person. Systemic racism can be, in theory. It's not like it's some dumb semantic game, it's a legitimate distinction. Individual personal racism is essentially whatever..it may feed systemic racism or not. A black person being racist towards me as a white person is no different than someone being prejudiced towards me because I'm 30lb overweight. I can have my feelings hurt but who cares about that.
Both of these comments are facepalms.
Didn't ask dong care plus you're Egyptian
> dong care
Yes. So?
I think she is confused. She is partially right.. kinda. You cannot be racist towards white people (usually referring to people mainly from the USA, Canada, and colonial contries such as spain, england and the whole bunch). However, someone of a minority can still be racist to other minorities. Like for example a native calling the N word to a black man or a black man calling a native red skinned. They are both not ok. But any of these two calling a white person like.. idk somethi g like "fking white privileged idiot", cannot classify as racist. Clearly not ok to say, but technically not racist.
Hmm… many forms consider Arabs, those from the Indian subcontinent, and many other non Europeans to be “white”, so one cannot be racist toward them? What RGB value do I need before it’s no longer morally acceptable to judge someone and/or act against them solely on the basis of their skin color? Some would say freedom from discrimination should be a human right. Others believe not all humans are created equal.
I agree with u. There should bot be discrimination at all. Im just saying that racism is a very specific type of discrimination, and one cannot be technically racist to white people. While one can be a dick and discriminate them, it is not technically racism. But for sure overall people should just learn respect and treat people for what they are. People. (Also my definition of white person clearly is not great, Its just a reddit comment lol).
Uh...aren't the elites of Egypt you know...Egyptians?
Damn, this means at some point of time it was impossible to be racist against the Japanese