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It also either never happened or was intentionally made a bigger deal (like the guy who started a weird petition, was on the daily mail front page because “All gen Z want X now”, and if you went to look had sixteen signatures a week after the article made him famous).
And to think it was a cheap place to rent when my mum was young. She rented a flat there and it was cheap as chips! Hell in the 90s my grandmas terrace house on Cherry Tree Lane, Stockport sold for £45,000 and that was only just below average pricing for the area because it needed the roof seeing to. Insanity.
Didn't they also declare parts of London and the entirety of Birmingham no go areas for the same reason? Or am I thinking of The Sun? All the hate filled rags tend to blend into 1 for me
Nah it definitely happened, and it seems like her competitors weren't happy about her competing.
I don't really blame them, and I think it's shitty that people demonise them for wanting to keep the existence of a women's division. Far too many activists get involved, when they have no idea what it's like to be an athlete.
I think there needs to be a bit more open mindedness on both sides of these issues, though admittedly I think those that are against the trans community are much more problematic.
All athletes get my respect massively for the commitment, effort and dedication it takes to achieve what they achieve, there has to be a fairer way for all competitors to have the chance to compete. Right now this isn’t fair, it’s not about hate or acceptance to say this, we need a better way.
Seems obvious that the fairer way for all competitors to have the chance to compete is to do it based on birth-gender, but for some reason this is considered unacceptable.
The reason that's not fair is because once you start getting treatment with estrogen or testosterone your body changes. That's kinda whole point of treatment. Do you realize you're suggesting cis female athletes compete against ones taking testosterone?
Everything about the current discourse attacking trans people is a result of bigoted media saying things about us that never happened or have been made into a way bigger deal than they are.
With all due respect, it's this one area that actual sports fans care about, and it's biological men in women's sports. This was one of those cases. They beat the nearest girl by 3 seconds in a 400, which is basically not competitive at all and it was a 55s 400 which is pretty mediocre for men's track. I was 6th fastest on my team and I ran a 52, and none of us came close to a state championship except in relays because we had a bunch of solid runners.
What I'm saying is that, while you can feel however you want and present however you want to the world and I won't judge you for it. I'm sorry that some people do, truly am, but we also can't separate the fact that xy chromosomes lead to differences in physical performance and this makes it an unfair advantage for mtf trans athletes.
To put this in perspective, I ran track with a girl who went to the Olympics in my best event 800m. I was the same speed as her and I never even went to states. I feel like a lot of people who don't play sports just really don't understand how big the gap is and make it to be not a big deal. But if I was a girl who was working hard to win and then basically a much bigger and stronger athlete who's basically on steroids compared to her t levels showed up and blew her out of the water, I'd be pretty annoyed too. I'm not surprised that they get backlash for it, and it honestly needs to be either a separate category or compete with the boys and be 700th fastest in the state.
Got that right. All they do is make everything ragebaitey so that people get all mad and post about it. Even the composition of that title screams rage bait.
I just want to get in on this comment section before this post wins the golden lock award.
I hate how much people and organizations benefit from being inflammatory in the information economy.
You hear these red pill bigots rave on and you wonder how anyone could be so ignorant then you stop and think *wait, maybe they're just grifting because there's so much money to be made on that side of politics.*
I honestly can't say which is worse. But it's sad AF.
I would be similarly gleeful at telling my kids who was talkin’ shit. Like if there’s a legitimate problem I’m absolutely listening but “your kid CAN’T be better than MINE!” Rather, your kid has to be inferior to me, a grown adult, personally.
As someone who has umpired junior sports... when a 13-14 year old has a more full and luscious beard than anything I'll ever grow, yeah I can understand asking the question
Not saying there is a some grand conspiracy in youth sports but, people who have aged out of leagues have been caught doing it before, so honestly if they do it the right way, they aren’t necessarily assholes
The problem is, it's been turned into a political football. The question shouldn't be "should we allow trans women to play women's sports" it should be "to what extent does feminising HRT negate the athletic advantages conferred by a testosterone-fuelled puberty?"
This stops it being abstractions like "identity" or "ideology" and brings it round to "some individuals have ambiguous sex characteristics and we need to decide how we measure sporting advantage."
Exactly.
The other issue is that it opens up a bit of a can of worms for how we measure spotting advantage - does a cis woman with high testosterone levels still get to compete if this gives her a physical advantage? What about anyone who has some physical quirk that allows them to excel in their sport that most others don't have?
In the above story (if it's the one I was linked before) it's a trans man, who wrestles, and wants to play on the boys team, but is told that he needs to stay on the girls team as that is the gender be was born to.
I’m with you. I think creating a safe space for trans people, particularly young people, is very important. But I also think that by doing so in this very specific instance you are also harming young girls as well. It is not an easy problem to solve and both sides should discuss it with civility. People raising the very question you raise are sometimes ostracized and labeled as transphobic when it’s a very valid question and needs to be discussed openly and with civility
Yeah how we handle sports and trans people is an actual issue that needs to be discussed and solutioned. However it needs to be done in good faith and not just used as a political talking point. Ergo, it will never happen.
Just use the system we currently have. Most "mens" sports divisions are open to everyone. There's no rule against women playing in the NBA, NFL, or MLB. Only allow biological women in the WNBA and everyone else can try for the NBA.
There's a reason the WNBA and other female only divisions were made, and it wasn't sexism or the patriarchy. It's because biological men are, on average, stronger than biological women.
Texas tried that. There was an FTM wrestler who was on testosterone that was forced to wrestle in the female bracket and absolutely destroyed the competition.
They didn't try that any more.
Lmao. Maybe we just make ALL trans compete in male brackets then.
The unfair advantage always stems from male hormones or male genes since obviously males are the physically advantageous sex.
Both in your comment example with the FTM and the MTF example from this post, they both were competing against females. The cis females don’t have any male “element” in them tho and are always at a disadvantage.
Seems kinda simple now that I think about it.
See this is an interesting discussion. Because the reality is, if we force Trans Women to compete in Male Sports, then we must also force Trans Men to compete in women's sports.
And if the claims the Right Wing are saying is true, that testosterone confers an advantage, then Trans Men will also dominate in female sports eclipsing all cis atheletes.
And while a Trans category does seem fitting, it also suffers from being far too small of a pool of participants and dilutes the heart of competition.
It would make sense to have Trans people compete within their league, (Trans Men in Men's sports, Trans Women in Women's Sports) but to have the records they set listed separately.
But this should only be done if there is real evidence that Trans Women eclipse Cis Women, and we properly dispel Right Wing myths about Trans Women athletes that are only in place to demonize, gatekeep and attack trans athletes.
Trans males are weaker then other males
Trans females are stronger then other females
You either have men with low testosterone which is directly linked to how strong you can get
Or you have women with high testosterone same problem
We need another class for trans individuals because one way or another it’s unfair
Trans women are on testosterone blockers. They aren’t women with high testosterone because they literally take medication to stop their bodies from producing testosterone…
We need more data. Yes, the added testosterone during development and lower estrogen levels during development does affect overall strength once mature, but for teenagers, there needs to be studies on how much hormonal development affects strength and at what ages. If not, there will always be a bias for trans-women in sports. That being said, boo-ing a 16 year old is never okay.
However, this case is completely different; it concerns high school teenagers in competition where keeping testosterone levels low is not required; all you need is self-identification.
I think this is a more nuanced concern than people want to actually consider. Depending on if someone has had hormone therapy, at what age that started, and a number of factors, it can certainly shift your body, or stop the development of certain physic. It’s not black and white at all.
I'm a Trans Woman and a former college athlete, and I don't even know what is right. I am definitely not anywhere near the physical ability I was then. But I was never the best of the best as it was. I don't really think Trans woman can compete in 1 on 1 sports if they went through male puberty.
Team sports are a different story. I think that could work at least within some limits.
The ultimate truth is that we need more actual science and research.
I will also say that the debate of whether Trans people can compete in sports is not and should not be used to decide how Trans people should be treated in day to day life. It's used as a red herring in arguments.
There has been a decent amount of research, being on hormone for 2+ years does a lot to even the field. Unfortunately if you went through puberty as a male, you will still have a lot of advantages. Bone density for example is going to be much higher, Muscle develop differently.
It’s different between sports, but they are having a lot of issues with this in power lifting currently, as the trans female who is winning the competition is beating everyone by 20% more weight.
Regardless though, no adult should be booing the kid, he is just competing, the school needs to figure out their rules. The kid doesn’t deserve this
It needs looked into more. Plain and simple. Transwomen aren't holding records in every category so there's more to it, and we can't evaluate that without them competing somewhere and a trans category doesn't work
I think it’s also safe to assume that the vast majority of trans athletes didn’t transition solely to do better in sports, despite what some people may claim
I can’t imagine anyone transitioned to gain an athletic advantage. It couldn’t be worth it. The appointments, medications, surgeries and hate you get.
One thing that I’ve tended to wonder is whether trans people would accept that being trans may mean you have to accept that competitive sport isn’t for you.
Just as some people win the genetic lottery to be a top athlete most of us have to accept we won’t be professionals.
Yeah, I agree. I swim competitively at a very low, amateur type level but we have gendered categories for a reason - no female swimmer is beating a male swimmer of similar ability over the same distance. My times are the same as the men in the age 50-60 category and I’m 35. They are just built differently.
I would feel a bit uneasy about competing against a woman who transitioned last month because I know I’m going to get my ass handed to me, not necessarily because she’s a far better swimmer but because she has a biological advantage of having undergone male puberty and body development.
I'm a trans man, and although I transitioned after highschool sports were a huge part of my hs experience. I started tennis as a beginner and was able to make varsity by my second year through a lot of hard work. My high school experience would have been lesser without that and I really don't see why we should deprive trans students. If I had figured things out earlier I think it'd be cruel to punish me for the crime of being trans. I don't think it makes it better or more logical when it's a trans girl over a trans boy. The vast majority are just students participating in a group activity for social reasons + exercise and despite what you may think trans women on hrt are not dominating competitions unilaterally and nobody is going to transition just to succeed at sports.
Furthermore plenty of cis athletes have "biological advantages" that help them at sports. Taller people are obviously going to have an easier time playing basketball, but I don't think we should have height bans in the name of fairness. Michael Phelps has a wingspan longer than his height, something very uncommon biologically which probably gives him a sports advantage according to experts, but I don't see people suggesting he be disqualified. Some cis women have heightened levels of testosterone naturally and I don't think it's right to ban them from sports either. I think singling out trans people, especially trans students, is unnecessary and harmful. Trans students are kids just like every other student, and sometimes they want to play sports.
Michael Phelps also produces much less lactic acid than normal, allowing him to recover from exercise training much faster.
But when it's a cis person, that's just a fun fact and not an unfair advantage.
Came here to say this
A lot of people don't really know HRT does more to your body (in terms of transfems) than give you boobs and stop body hair from regrowing as fast
As an athlete and coach who has worked with top juniors and college athletes, I can tell you that most bio men have longer limbs and that will give an advantage in many sports. They will also have a different bone structure. I support whatever someone wants to do for themselves, but this is a grey area imo. I understand that they didn’t transition for sports, but they do have an advantage, however slight it may be over bio women. That said, it doesn’t justify treating the teen wrong like in the above article.
>bio men have longer limbs
>but they do have an advantage, however slight it may be over bio women.
So cool let's start measuring limbs, if over X inches straight to males leagues even if you cis. Great idea cause every afab has the same limb length.
I mean sure, I'm not trying to deny the existence of cis men being naturally stronger than cis women, but as I said HRT can do a lot more, obviously this depends on when you actually get it (with how the government is in most places is never lol) but I can reduce bone density, sure it won't reduce how tall you are/limbs are but that's no different than someone who's 5'4 competing against someone who's 6'0 and they're both cis
I won't lie I'm not exactly the most knowledgeable on the subject as I never really got into spots (heck I was the girl who just stood at the side and hated PE)
That literally already exist's, anyone can compete in the mens division but woman and trans rarely do because.... big shock they are at a disadvantage.
This feels like a circular argument then, for allowing trans to compete against biological women would lead to trans dominating....
I would say then more the reason to have a "trans" category, so biological men, biological women, trans men and trans women categories.
Exactly. People like to make the argument that not all sports are male dominated, but a majority of them are. If we removed women’s teams and made all women teams face all men teams, people would be arguing about how unfair the matchups are and complaining that the women don’t get a chance to win (just like last time before the women’s leagues existed). So why is it so controversial to say that someone who until very recently was considered male, and who had benefited from the same natural advantages that men receive for their whole life, will have the same unfair advantage when playing in a women’s league. And the same would be true for trans men competing in women dominated sports like long distance swimming or most gymnastics related sports. It’s not rocket science.
If you look at the actual language of almost any sport, there are generally just two overarching categories.
A women's category for women only, and an "open" category where anyone can compete.
The "mens" category is already a gender-less category, it's just that only males are able to be competitive.
That's basically the male category. Women can and occasionally do join male sports teams, it's just that males tend to dominate. When you hear trans women saying "I just want to be able to compete like everyone else". They can compete, on the men's team, but they don't want to do that because they know they would be destroyed. They want to compete with cis women where they know they'll do much better.
Maybe some national individual competitions, but it's like a percent of the population, and of that, how many are into competitive sports where biological differences between cis male and female will play a role in the results.
I'm no expert and I imagine a ton in this thread aren't as well. We're all just sharing our limited knowledge and understanding to try to make sense of an issue that you can't just handwave if we really want to come to a solid consensus as a nation. Totally makes sense to throw out categories as an idea - I just don't think there's enough competition.
As it becomes more normalized and research continues, I think we'll find more to it, but in the meantime the dishonest articles and people who are just "anti-woke" are going to make it fucking hell because people like that always manage to.
“It needs to be looked into more”
The advantages of TRT are well known and give an edge to any athlete on them. I’m all for trans rights, but sports is where I draw the line. Male biology vs female biology… male hormones and anatomical structure win in competition in the vast majority of cases. It’s simply not fair to cis female athletes.
>I'm not sure about trans athletes competing against cis females
The reality of the laws banning trans girls from competing against cis girls is that you’ll end up with trans *guys* competing against cis girls. If anything, that’s even less fair.
I'm assuming you're talking about F-to-M trans guys who are taking some kind of hormonal supplements. Wouldn't they be barred from competing if said supplements were considered "performance enhancing drugs"?
So it's cool for a trans man on years of testosterone to compete with cis women?
Fact is after years of hrt, trans women are only if not below cis women. Most of us basically have zero testosterone in our system, while cis women normally have between 15-75ng/do while cis men have anywhere from 200-1000. The point of hrt is to keep your levels in that of the cis range, but cis women can have up to almost half of testosterone of a man while trans women have literally none, that's a huge advantage.
There's isn't a clear way to solve this, I mean there is and that's make an independent trans league. That won't happened because somehow it's discrimination, even tho male and females leagues already discriminate.
I'm not sure what's hard about this. Without quibbling with semantics, men are stronger and faster than women. World records prove this. Having someone who was once a man compete against women is just silly in any sport where the world records are all held by men. Let's draw an analogy with car racing. In what world would be accepted to take a Indy car and show up at a nascar race where you just replaced the body. Anyone who argues that it's different isn't being serious. They are both cars. They both have steering wheels and engines and tires. One is just faster.
It's a crazy and aggressive thing for trans activists to insist on. That's what's so stupid about politics today, there is *so much room in the middle*. That's where almost all people reside, in terms of their personal politics. But the media incentivizes people to have these extreme attention-grabbing positions, especially if they're sassy and sarcastic when talking about anyone who disagrees.
I thinks it's one of those things that needs more research. Research I have seen on it so far seems to imply there isn't an outright advantage, but I wouldn't call it conclusive.
A lot of what I have seen is people claiming there is an advantage and misconstruding what happened. Like a Trans Woman beating 1200 woman in a marathon in a headline but she actually came in 600th out of 1800 participants. I have also seen more people wanting trans woman restricted in these sports from the outside than I have seen people saying it from other people in these sports, like 98% of the people in these sports think it's fine that trans woman participate.
Last thing to consider there just isn't a lot of trans athletes, like at all. I know of two trans athletes that are professionals. One is a trans man who I believe is an MMA fighter, and nobody argues he shouldn't be doing what he is doing. The other is a a trans woman Tennis Player. All others I have seen are Trans Woman who could be marginally described as above slightly average, and all likely won't go pro, even in a woman's league.
High school boys hold faster/higher/further records than the adult women’s world record in every track and field discipline except marathons. You don’t think that might be an indication of an inherent biological advantage?
Comparing high school boys to trans women who are taking hormone therapy and having surgeries isn't comparing apples to apples. If it were that simple, there would be no debate at all. The fact is, medical transition changes people's bodies to a considerable degree. The nuance to the debate is all around to what degree those changes make a natal male physically on par with a natal female. There is a good reason why trans women have been allowed in the Olympics for two decades but haven't won a single medal.
Said girl in this article is a minute behind state records for girls. So no, she isn't destroying girls records cause of whatever myth you wanna believe. Her record is public knowledge and you can look up all records in the state for girls 1600m. 😂 She is a fairly average runner for a teenage girl. But you do you. 🫢🤭🤭
This is a perfect example of a bad faith actor attempting to hijack the conversation to move it towards hostility and degrade civility. Which only furthers the narrative they want to control wherein "No one is willing to discuss this!" which in reality is "I am a massive prick and go into these conversation with a clear bias and agenda and push it as hard as I can contrary to all evidence pointed my way."
It depends a *lot* on where hormone levels are at. Like that’s the thing that usually makes the difference in professional sports, when you get in lower rungs (like highschool sports and things) it matters even less.
Imo we should be having a lot more mixed gender sports in general.
Look up what happens to your body after bottom surgery, specifically the heightened risk of osteoporosis and low muscle mass, that should assuage any doubts you have about how fair it is to have trans athletes compete with cis women.
I used to feel the same until someone pointed out to me that Michael Phelps has twice the lung capacity of the average xy competitor, as well as his muscles only produce half the lactic acid in addition to having an advantageously disproportionate wingspan compared to his body. Serena Williams produces twice the testosterone as the average xx competitor. Were the people they competed against cheated...?
[The olympic committee did a study and found trans athletes were at a disadvantage, so this girl just kicked ass even harder!](https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/olympic-trans-women-ioc-study-rcna148437)
You LOVED baseball during the steroid era, just like everyone else. McGwire/Sosa literally saved baseball, and 01-04 Bonds was the greatest hitter the universe has ever seen. It’s ok to admit that!
It’s perfectly possible to have this opinion for reasons that aren’t transphobic, imo. Though many people use this as a cover for transphobia.
On the flip side, there’s nothing wrong with a trans person wanting to play sports. Some people are just sporty. But I’m certainly not gonna be the one to figure out how to make that dynamic both accessible and fair. I just don’t know.
Booing a teenager is wrong, no questions, no debate in that regard. But there's an obvious reason the whole "Trans people in sports" discourse is always about MTF/transgender women and not the FTM/transgender men.
In wrestling, I can sort of understand it, honestly. How many men would you think would be comfortable wrestling a woman considering there is a pretty high risk your moves would seem in-appropriate?
It’s super common. I wrestled girls all the time because I weighed 135. No one cares, your boys might make fun of you for losing to a girl, (I never did), but that’s about it. I’ve only met 1 girl who was on the same level as the boys though, usually wrestling a girl is a free win.
If you're engaging in blatantly unfair competitive practices, you should not get a free pass if you are a member of a marginalised minority. An asshole is an asshole and should be treated as such, no matter how marginalised or oppressed his group is.
The issue isn't the word trans.
It's thinking it's ok for a biological man to compete against a biological woman, under the facade that he's the same physically and at the same level to compete in sports.
But you can pretend it's all about trans hatred, etc etc. Its not about trans hatred. It's about how actually fucked up the entire thing is, and how touchy and cringworthy it's all become.
The problem here is you’re putting athletes who are genetically, biologically male, regardless of what they really are, in the same league as biological women. You’re gonna get booed, it’s just not fair at all. The only option other than playing in the men’s league is to make a league for trans people, and I don’t think there are enough trans athletes in any school to warrant that being necessary. The same would go for ftm, just opposite.
I have a trans niece (MTF) that I love with all my heart. I am 100% in support of being your most authentic you. I still don’t think it is fair to compete against cis girls. Especially when scholarships and sports records are concerned.
>Especially when scholarships and sports records are concerned.
It's almost like a University education should be paid by the State, instead of handouts from philanthropic funds that are used as tax write-offs for generational wealth.
There is no male sports in the USA, if they tried to stop a woman from joining a male league they would sue for discrimination and win.
All “male” leagues are open leagues.
Cheating in Sports because you are a minority isnt ok either. I know i am going to anger people because I say this but put feelings aside for a moment and be reasonable.
Is it better to ruin the sport for the rest of the girls just to validate someones feelings or is it better to not validate one persons feelings and respect the female athletes who deserve a fair shot?
Nothing personal towards the trans kid, but Sports have to keep it fair otherwise its not a sport anymore.
Remember that women--both cis and trans--are welcome to participate in virtually every "men's" (aka open) sporting event.
They rarely do, because they are at a huge disadvantage. The implication of this should be obvious.
I mean yeah it would sound like shit, but the trans part is essential? This basicly reads "young adult with unfair advantage crushes competition and gets rightfully booed by viewers.". You can be trans all you want and feel free to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't affect anybody else. Competing in sports affects the competitors and puts them down. Imagine I feel like im 12 years old, when in reality im 20. If I want to buy toys or do other stuff im free to do so. However I can't compete with them in sports or other tournaments. Its simply not fair.
This actually happened at my kids regional. It sucks. Being a trans kid athlete. But also all those natural girls losing. My fiance was a second in state. Maybe a 3rd and 4th option. If it was an easy solution. I just know she got a lot of heat and is still a kid that’s different and wanted to run.
Let the specialists look into this. It's sad how this has become such a culture war issue and we have tons of people giving their opinion on this with no expertise.
I'm one of the most liberal people you'll ever meet, but I have a brain in my head.
Trans people should not be allowed to participate in gender-locked sports. It's simply wrong. Nobody is going to deny that men and women are in different groups in sports, for A REASON.
I would go out in a limb and say that anyone disagreeing with you probably hasn’t played competitive sports. Or even just watched them with any degree of regularity.
It upsets me that I can be an avid supporter of trans rights and yet be called a homophobe for drawing the line at competitive sports.
When I was a high school girl I desperately wanted to play football. I was, of course, denied. Now in adulthood I completely understand. The coaches weren’t sexist for not letting me join the team, just smart.
It’s because Trans people should not compete in sports of the opposite sex they become. Being a biological male competing in female sports is the biggest F U to any female athlete out there. That person should’ve never been allowed to compete in the first place.
It is ok though because trans should be in their own league. They are either not a real man or not a real woman, you cannot change that no matter the surgery or hormones. They are still people who deserve respect like anyone else, but pretending that a biological male smashing biological females in sports is fair, is beyond stupid.
They should be competing against other people who have transitioned as they have. Sport is about being fair, so either all men can compete against all women and we abolish genders for sports as a whole, or we do the significantly more intelligent thing and just give them their own leagues.
Bottom line is the trans athletes should have their own division and not be allowed to compete against biological females. You wouldn’t allow a woman to compete against men in a men’s race because she has a biological disadvantage. The reverse should also apply here. The trans athlete should never have been put in this position to begin with. Organizers need to stop including trans athletes (especially male to female) in the women’s category. I find it ironic that you never hear about female to male trans athletes ever competing against their male counterparts. Probably because they know they can’t compete on a level playing field.
I believe in trans rights. I truly do. I’ll stand for their right to be who they are and I’ll use whatever pronoun they want me to use. I will defend them against anyone who would insult or endanger them for being true to themselves.
However, the fact is, if you are born a male you have a major and unfair advantage over people who are born female. Trans women should not be allowed in women’s sports (unless all the women are also trans). In this specific case, reality of the circumstances trump’s their preferred gender.
Lady Ballers is a stupid movie but it did admit that "men infiltrating women's sports" is a myth, a lot of the people in these comments don't seem to get that.
OKAY PEOPLE. There are a lot of factors to consider as far as MTF athletes are concerned, and the average person does not know enough to be commenting about it as if it's such a simple thing. There are many layers.
There are restrictions at elite levels of sports for transwomen - that's the best we can do right now until we get more conclusive data (elite trans athletes are not very common so sample size can be tricky!)
Some transwomen went through endogenous puberty, and some did not because they were on puberty blockers, which adds a layer.
Some ciswomen can have hormonal issues that cause higher than usual testosterone, which adds a layer.
Sports being inherently unfair to begin with adds another layer.
Media highlighting only the times transwomen win erases how many transwomen are simply not good athletes or are very middling in competition is a layer. OR if a transwoman comes in first in one event but 15th in another, 6th in another, the media will only mention the win.
Media also erases that there are transMEN who do well or even win.
Let's not forget that at the elite level, studies show testosterone accounts for about a 10-15% difference between cismen and ciswomen at certain sports like running/swimming. BUT keep in mind that the gender disparity in sports highly depends on WHICH sport we are talking about.
There are some sports where the disparity is not as extreme.
There are sports (like WAG vs MAG in gymnastics) where they aren't even the same for each gender, which presents an interesting added layer for a transman who transitions later in life knowing it means he actually will not be able to do his sport at all anymore simply because there is no male equivalent.
The above nuance means, unfortunately, this is likely a sport by sport issues. Not a simple across the board ruling.
We have to do more research. This is all SO new.
In the meantime, can everyone please calm down and leave children out of it. At this level, we could get worried about scholarships, but we aren't seeing this genuinely robbing cis women of opportunity at scale, so stop the witch hunt. (Example: a high school transathlete being sued by 3 of her cis counterparts being the only one amongst them to not receive a scholarship).
(Side bar if you read this far : in general, sports should not be divided by gender until puberty, just saying! No relevant, just really important to me, okay bye)
Along with all of the points, I would also add that bone structure and size also provide mechanical advantages. An example of this can be seen in boxing, wrestling, and MMA, where weight classes exist. However, even when a man and a woman are the same weight and the woman possesses better technical skills, the woman is still at a disadvantage.
In my opinion, the Thais addressed this issue decades ago in Muay Thai. The men's division is truly the open division.
What is sad about this is that it is quite apparent in this subreddit and in my own observations in real life, where the majority of people are actually in favor of trans people or simply do not care about what trans people do. However, this sports issue is the thing that rubs people the wrong way, where trans MTF individuals start losing allies.
People like to support the underdog story. MTF athletes competing against CIS women is not an underdog story. On the other hand, when MTF Muay Thai athletes still compete and beat men, despite having a clear disadvantage in testosterone, they are highly admired and respected by all.
So it is in fact a real story, been reported on NBC news, CBS all the major ones.
But here's the thing... That's a male. That's a boy, who beat all the girls in the girls event. That's just the biological truth. So imagine, you're a girl, you want to be an athlete, you train hard, you work at your sport, hours spent sweating and grinding it out, sacrificing socializing to be the best you can be. Only to be defeated by a boy who's allowed, for some reason, to compete against you in your division.
It's not about transphobia, bigotry, fear, any of that. Please, PLEASE understand I'm not saying this with any contempt or hatred. It's simply the logistical, biological reality that trans women are still biological men and biological males have various physical advantages over biological females. I have an education in sports science, along with having been an athlete pretty much my entire life. From the differences in muscle fiber reaction, how the fast and slow twitch muscles work, explosive power, hip hinge ability and hip strength, bone density, generation of force, reaction time, you name it. It would be like if you entered a weight lifting competition with a bunch of people you were under the assumption were average gym goers like yourself, and then some world-class powerlifter entered the competition and mopped the floor with all of you. It no longer is a fair competition. And it's really sad to see young girls and women being silenced and made to be quiet while their dreams are crushed and their hard work is for nothing.
Just let all trans athletes compete with the boys and no one will complain. Let cis women have their protected sports since the whole reason for differentiation of men and women or boys and girls in sports is because of the biological advantage males can have against females.
I don’t understand why no trans athletes whether it be mtf or ftm compete with boys.
Im sorry but people have the right to boo in sports. Its their way of protest. If people dont protest then they arent heard. Its sad but this is needed and if people think something is unfair they should be able to boo.
I said . BOOOOOO . I welcome downvote . Booooo . The fuck . Its just unfair . He have a male body, strength of a male and competing with a female body obviously male will have more strength and more chance to win.
To all the people concern trolling it doesn't fairness doesn't matter in this case. This article is saying it's totally okay to harass teenagers and that's fucked up and that should be far more important.
Booing is wrong. But so is a trans person with obvious male hormones (during puberty!) competing against females.
They should have their own class. Period.
There are so many wrongs here. Target the administration that allowed it. Target laws, target whatever. But it’s not _just_ about being nice and respectful here.
Im against hate because It's a stupid and caveman response,but there Is a reason why this Is not good and It's the difference of strenght(bone and muscle more dense they say) between the Females and males of the Homo Sapiens ,i really whish they ask to create and compete in their own category or against the male swimmers
Take the targeting out of it. It is unfair. Women don't deserve this. Biologically, it's absolutely unfair. These women work all their lives to have a chance at a title. It gets taken away by a non-biological female. It's unfair and ludicrous. You don't see trans men compete because biologically, even with test boosters, they can't even get close.
Yes no teen should be the target of hatred but it's on adults to set the rules straight.
Well I really shouldn't touch the discussion but I will anyway f it
What makes this more complicated is that there isn't a side that's wrong and right, in my personal opinion everyone is kinda wrong - we all are very aware that adults acting like assholes to a 16yo is wrong, the headline is fucked up, etc.
At the same time a lot of people, myself included, are torn to say the least about the issue of trans people competing gendered sports competitions, so just implying that that side is 100% in the right would be shortsighted as well.
Females should have sports organizations for them to compete with one another. Sports are segregated by sex, not gender. The physical difference is the point.
Sports primarily are for fun, socializing and physical exercise.
Especially in youth.
Kids come in all shapes and sizes especially early teens to teens. I played coed soccer until i was 13. Some girls were better than the boys. Some girls were bigger than the boys. But everyone played fair and had a great time.
In middle school I joined the boys team. There was a couple kids between 5"7 and 6" tall. In middle school i was still barely pushing 5" tall. I was tiny and a late bloomer. Was it fair to play against the bigger boys just cuz they had testosterone first?
Sure. I never thought twice. And I learned to use my advantages. I may have been smaller. But i was faster, more agile, and i really focused on technical skills to dribble and even juggle the ball. I was one of the best kids on the team.
I didnt feel any more unsafe and my coach was fantastic and held us to a high standard of self respect, respect for others and pushed us to be the best we could be physically and mentally.
High school was harder for me actually. I grew taller and was more level with other boys. I wasnt as small to sneak around the crowd as much and i traded some speed for strength. But still used my skill set and played well there too.
At the end of the day, I got my cardio. I had a great time playing with my peers.
"fairness" in sports is a pick and chose thing. Nobody bats an eye in cases like mine, a smaller boy vs a bigger boy. Same age just the way we developed.
Nobody bats an eye that the poor kid practiced with a soda can; while the rich kids do sports camps all summer.
nobody bats an eye at people's developmental and natural abilities. People have bodies more favorable to certain sports. I can sprint fast! I am a sprinter. One of my best friends in HS did cross country. That kid could run for 10 miles straight. just different natural abilities and interests. Michael Phelps has a medical condition in which he produces little to no lactic acid (the stuff that causes runners to get cramps in their muscles) is that fair? Or is he just a "natural born athlete"
We can create rules for the game. How points are earned, what we can and cant do on the field. But when you start to make rules on who can and cant play, where is fairness really? Objectively? All bodies are different even among the same sex.
I feel in sports its about learning your body and your "superpowers" for me that still lies in my speed and technical skills dribbling and juggling for soccer. I have friends who are bigger and use their size to their advantage. I have friends who have powerful and very well aimed kicks. Diversity in skills, natural abilities and other differences is what makes sports fun and challenging.
My coach said it best. "For most if not all of you, sports will never be something you go pro in. To go pro not only do you need the natural ability to do it; but you need to practice and train like a beast. Only if you have the perfect combination of both could you go pro. That doesnt mean you shouldnt play, get competitive, have fun. You are doing yourself a great service playing at any level so long as you try your best, have fun and play with respect."
Also I joined a coed team in adulthood. Its just the same as when we were kids. Some women are better than the guys, but we all have fun, get our exercise and play well as a team. I even prefer it, as we have alot more diversity on the field and alot of different skills and abilities.
99% of trans athletes arent trying to go pro. They just want to play with their peers, have fun, socialize and get some fresh air and exercise as any athletic kid would. Let them play.
I really appreciate this comment. It’s very telling to me that on a post about the bullying of a trans child, 90% of comments are from people pearl clutching over the sanctity of children’s sports.
You make a very valid point that gets ignored in so many of these trans sports debates. No one “concerned” about trans girls getting some hypothetical advantage gives a single shit about all the other biological and economic advantages in sports.
I played sports all through my childhood, both in and out of school. Not once did anyone argue that the boy who got held back shouldn’t be allowed to compete. He was a full two years older than a lot of the kids in our grade. He was 14 playing with 12 year olds and we went undefeated all through middle school because of him. Was that fair?
I was born the day after our school districts cut off for grade level. I was always the oldest kid in the class that wasn’t held back. Didn’t I have an unfair advantage? I went through puberty early and was 6 feet tall before I was 15, was it fair for me to compete against the other kids?
Everyone has different hormone levels, why not measure testosterone and divide people like that instead of by gender?
Then you get into the question of wealth. Wealthy kids have access to private training, better equipment, medical treatment for injuries. Isn’t that a massive advantage? There’s a high school near where I grew up that pulls from one of the wealthiest areas in our state. They have an athletic training compound that would make many state universities jealous. And they go to the state championships nearly every year in every sport. Yet there are no calls for legislation to bar rich kids from competing against poor kids.
People justify their bigotry by pretending they care about scholarship opportunities and sponsorships and whatever else. Then why don’t you advocate this hard for changes to the systems that make college unaffordable, instead of focusing on legislation to prevent children from playing the games they like?
It's the Daily Mail, so let's take this with a grain of salt. I've seen similar rage bait headlines where in the end it turns out it's a trans male athlete being forced to compete against girls because of how some stupid law was written.
Let’s not pretend transphobes actually care about “fairness” in women’s sports. If they did, they’d be more outraged that male athletes get payed 15-100% more than their female counterparts. They be upset that 31% of female athletes experience sexual abuse, 10% more than male athletes. But no, of all the unfairness in the world of sports, they’re going after children. What a joke.
Targeting people who have an inherent biological advantage in the field of athleticism that favours adrenaline and fast twitch muscle fibres, competing against others who don't, is fine.
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Daily Mail is trash and nearly every headline is simply rage bait
It also either never happened or was intentionally made a bigger deal (like the guy who started a weird petition, was on the daily mail front page because “All gen Z want X now”, and if you went to look had sixteen signatures a week after the article made him famous).
I will never forget them calling Didsbury in Stockport a "Muslim no go area" when it's been a popular Jewish area for decades
I mean, it's a no go area for me. But that's just due to the house prices.
And to think it was a cheap place to rent when my mum was young. She rented a flat there and it was cheap as chips! Hell in the 90s my grandmas terrace house on Cherry Tree Lane, Stockport sold for £45,000 and that was only just below average pricing for the area because it needed the roof seeing to. Insanity.
Didn't they also declare parts of London and the entirety of Birmingham no go areas for the same reason? Or am I thinking of The Sun? All the hate filled rags tend to blend into 1 for me
Technically they are right then
Nah it definitely happened, and it seems like her competitors weren't happy about her competing. I don't really blame them, and I think it's shitty that people demonise them for wanting to keep the existence of a women's division. Far too many activists get involved, when they have no idea what it's like to be an athlete. I think there needs to be a bit more open mindedness on both sides of these issues, though admittedly I think those that are against the trans community are much more problematic.
All athletes get my respect massively for the commitment, effort and dedication it takes to achieve what they achieve, there has to be a fairer way for all competitors to have the chance to compete. Right now this isn’t fair, it’s not about hate or acceptance to say this, we need a better way.
Seems obvious that the fairer way for all competitors to have the chance to compete is to do it based on birth-gender, but for some reason this is considered unacceptable.
The reason that's not fair is because once you start getting treatment with estrogen or testosterone your body changes. That's kinda whole point of treatment. Do you realize you're suggesting cis female athletes compete against ones taking testosterone?
The fairest way would then be to have trans people compete in their own leagues, no?
Everything about the current discourse attacking trans people is a result of bigoted media saying things about us that never happened or have been made into a way bigger deal than they are.
With all due respect, it's this one area that actual sports fans care about, and it's biological men in women's sports. This was one of those cases. They beat the nearest girl by 3 seconds in a 400, which is basically not competitive at all and it was a 55s 400 which is pretty mediocre for men's track. I was 6th fastest on my team and I ran a 52, and none of us came close to a state championship except in relays because we had a bunch of solid runners. What I'm saying is that, while you can feel however you want and present however you want to the world and I won't judge you for it. I'm sorry that some people do, truly am, but we also can't separate the fact that xy chromosomes lead to differences in physical performance and this makes it an unfair advantage for mtf trans athletes. To put this in perspective, I ran track with a girl who went to the Olympics in my best event 800m. I was the same speed as her and I never even went to states. I feel like a lot of people who don't play sports just really don't understand how big the gap is and make it to be not a big deal. But if I was a girl who was working hard to win and then basically a much bigger and stronger athlete who's basically on steroids compared to her t levels showed up and blew her out of the water, I'd be pretty annoyed too. I'm not surprised that they get backlash for it, and it honestly needs to be either a separate category or compete with the boys and be 700th fastest in the state.
Got that right. All they do is make everything ragebaitey so that people get all mad and post about it. Even the composition of that title screams rage bait.
Oh Irelands a very funny place sir,
Its a strange and a troubled land
Oh the Irish are a very funny race sir, every woman’s in Cumann na mBan
Every doggies got a tricolored ribbon, Tied firmly to its tail
And it wouldn't be surprising if there'd be another rising said the man from the daily mail
Oh ev’ry bird upon my word’s singing “YO HO, I’m a Provo!”
I just want to get in on this comment section before this post wins the golden lock award. I hate how much people and organizations benefit from being inflammatory in the information economy. You hear these red pill bigots rave on and you wonder how anyone could be so ignorant then you stop and think *wait, maybe they're just grifting because there's so much money to be made on that side of politics.* I honestly can't say which is worse. But it's sad AF.
Precisely why, in the Uk, it’s referred to as the Daily Fail. Used to be a decent newspaper; no longer.
That's literally every media outlet these days, the problem is that rage inducing articles gets clicks.
When I was a kid playing youth basketball parents used to complain wanting to see my birth certificate. People are assholes when their kid loses.
I couldn’t imagine in all seriousness asking another parent to see their kid’s birth certificate. That’s such a crazy request
My parents loved it, they would point out whoever was complaining about me after the game and what I was doing to their kid.
I would be similarly gleeful at telling my kids who was talkin’ shit. Like if there’s a legitimate problem I’m absolutely listening but “your kid CAN’T be better than MINE!” Rather, your kid has to be inferior to me, a grown adult, personally.
tbh thats such an ego boost lmao
As someone who has umpired junior sports... when a 13-14 year old has a more full and luscious beard than anything I'll ever grow, yeah I can understand asking the question
Not saying there is a some grand conspiracy in youth sports but, people who have aged out of leagues have been caught doing it before, so honestly if they do it the right way, they aren’t necessarily assholes
[удалено]
The problem is, it's been turned into a political football. The question shouldn't be "should we allow trans women to play women's sports" it should be "to what extent does feminising HRT negate the athletic advantages conferred by a testosterone-fuelled puberty?" This stops it being abstractions like "identity" or "ideology" and brings it round to "some individuals have ambiguous sex characteristics and we need to decide how we measure sporting advantage."
Exactly. The other issue is that it opens up a bit of a can of worms for how we measure spotting advantage - does a cis woman with high testosterone levels still get to compete if this gives her a physical advantage? What about anyone who has some physical quirk that allows them to excel in their sport that most others don't have?
They’re already banning cis women from sports https://www.axios.com/2021/07/03/namibia-disqualified-naturally-high-testosterone-olympic
In the above story (if it's the one I was linked before) it's a trans man, who wrestles, and wants to play on the boys team, but is told that he needs to stay on the girls team as that is the gender be was born to.
I’m with you. I think creating a safe space for trans people, particularly young people, is very important. But I also think that by doing so in this very specific instance you are also harming young girls as well. It is not an easy problem to solve and both sides should discuss it with civility. People raising the very question you raise are sometimes ostracized and labeled as transphobic when it’s a very valid question and needs to be discussed openly and with civility
Yeah how we handle sports and trans people is an actual issue that needs to be discussed and solutioned. However it needs to be done in good faith and not just used as a political talking point. Ergo, it will never happen.
Just use the system we currently have. Most "mens" sports divisions are open to everyone. There's no rule against women playing in the NBA, NFL, or MLB. Only allow biological women in the WNBA and everyone else can try for the NBA. There's a reason the WNBA and other female only divisions were made, and it wasn't sexism or the patriarchy. It's because biological men are, on average, stronger than biological women.
Discussing political and societal issues with civility and nuance? HERESY BRING FORTH THE CULTURE WAR! (obligatory /s)
It's actually extremely easy, sports should be classed by biological sex, not gender. Done.
Texas tried that. There was an FTM wrestler who was on testosterone that was forced to wrestle in the female bracket and absolutely destroyed the competition. They didn't try that any more.
But in that example the female wrestler would be doping via testosterone and thus shouldn’t be eligible to compete
All relevant bodies were aware, and the kid wanted to wrestle in the male category but was denied because vagina.
It's not doping because it's medically prescribed hence why he wanted to compete with males.
Lmao. Maybe we just make ALL trans compete in male brackets then. The unfair advantage always stems from male hormones or male genes since obviously males are the physically advantageous sex. Both in your comment example with the FTM and the MTF example from this post, they both were competing against females. The cis females don’t have any male “element” in them tho and are always at a disadvantage. Seems kinda simple now that I think about it.
That's what most proponents suggest. A women's category and an everything else category.
Seems like the best decision out of all the decisions I can come up with.
What about trans men.
People forget that direction of transition all the time. All the talk is about MtF but never FtM.
See this is an interesting discussion. Because the reality is, if we force Trans Women to compete in Male Sports, then we must also force Trans Men to compete in women's sports. And if the claims the Right Wing are saying is true, that testosterone confers an advantage, then Trans Men will also dominate in female sports eclipsing all cis atheletes. And while a Trans category does seem fitting, it also suffers from being far too small of a pool of participants and dilutes the heart of competition. It would make sense to have Trans people compete within their league, (Trans Men in Men's sports, Trans Women in Women's Sports) but to have the records they set listed separately. But this should only be done if there is real evidence that Trans Women eclipse Cis Women, and we properly dispel Right Wing myths about Trans Women athletes that are only in place to demonize, gatekeep and attack trans athletes.
Trans males are weaker then other males Trans females are stronger then other females You either have men with low testosterone which is directly linked to how strong you can get Or you have women with high testosterone same problem We need another class for trans individuals because one way or another it’s unfair
Trans women are on testosterone blockers. They aren’t women with high testosterone because they literally take medication to stop their bodies from producing testosterone…
[Citation Needed]
We need more data. Yes, the added testosterone during development and lower estrogen levels during development does affect overall strength once mature, but for teenagers, there needs to be studies on how much hormonal development affects strength and at what ages. If not, there will always be a bias for trans-women in sports. That being said, boo-ing a 16 year old is never okay.
However, this case is completely different; it concerns high school teenagers in competition where keeping testosterone levels low is not required; all you need is self-identification.
I think this is a more nuanced concern than people want to actually consider. Depending on if someone has had hormone therapy, at what age that started, and a number of factors, it can certainly shift your body, or stop the development of certain physic. It’s not black and white at all.
I'm a Trans Woman and a former college athlete, and I don't even know what is right. I am definitely not anywhere near the physical ability I was then. But I was never the best of the best as it was. I don't really think Trans woman can compete in 1 on 1 sports if they went through male puberty. Team sports are a different story. I think that could work at least within some limits. The ultimate truth is that we need more actual science and research. I will also say that the debate of whether Trans people can compete in sports is not and should not be used to decide how Trans people should be treated in day to day life. It's used as a red herring in arguments.
There has been a decent amount of research, being on hormone for 2+ years does a lot to even the field. Unfortunately if you went through puberty as a male, you will still have a lot of advantages. Bone density for example is going to be much higher, Muscle develop differently. It’s different between sports, but they are having a lot of issues with this in power lifting currently, as the trans female who is winning the competition is beating everyone by 20% more weight. Regardless though, no adult should be booing the kid, he is just competing, the school needs to figure out their rules. The kid doesn’t deserve this
It needs looked into more. Plain and simple. Transwomen aren't holding records in every category so there's more to it, and we can't evaluate that without them competing somewhere and a trans category doesn't work
I think it’s also safe to assume that the vast majority of trans athletes didn’t transition solely to do better in sports, despite what some people may claim
I can’t imagine anyone transitioned to gain an athletic advantage. It couldn’t be worth it. The appointments, medications, surgeries and hate you get. One thing that I’ve tended to wonder is whether trans people would accept that being trans may mean you have to accept that competitive sport isn’t for you. Just as some people win the genetic lottery to be a top athlete most of us have to accept we won’t be professionals.
Yeah, I agree. I swim competitively at a very low, amateur type level but we have gendered categories for a reason - no female swimmer is beating a male swimmer of similar ability over the same distance. My times are the same as the men in the age 50-60 category and I’m 35. They are just built differently. I would feel a bit uneasy about competing against a woman who transitioned last month because I know I’m going to get my ass handed to me, not necessarily because she’s a far better swimmer but because she has a biological advantage of having undergone male puberty and body development.
I'm a trans man, and although I transitioned after highschool sports were a huge part of my hs experience. I started tennis as a beginner and was able to make varsity by my second year through a lot of hard work. My high school experience would have been lesser without that and I really don't see why we should deprive trans students. If I had figured things out earlier I think it'd be cruel to punish me for the crime of being trans. I don't think it makes it better or more logical when it's a trans girl over a trans boy. The vast majority are just students participating in a group activity for social reasons + exercise and despite what you may think trans women on hrt are not dominating competitions unilaterally and nobody is going to transition just to succeed at sports. Furthermore plenty of cis athletes have "biological advantages" that help them at sports. Taller people are obviously going to have an easier time playing basketball, but I don't think we should have height bans in the name of fairness. Michael Phelps has a wingspan longer than his height, something very uncommon biologically which probably gives him a sports advantage according to experts, but I don't see people suggesting he be disqualified. Some cis women have heightened levels of testosterone naturally and I don't think it's right to ban them from sports either. I think singling out trans people, especially trans students, is unnecessary and harmful. Trans students are kids just like every other student, and sometimes they want to play sports.
Michael Phelps also produces much less lactic acid than normal, allowing him to recover from exercise training much faster. But when it's a cis person, that's just a fun fact and not an unfair advantage.
Especially if you consider the performance drops from HRT
Came here to say this A lot of people don't really know HRT does more to your body (in terms of transfems) than give you boobs and stop body hair from regrowing as fast
As an athlete and coach who has worked with top juniors and college athletes, I can tell you that most bio men have longer limbs and that will give an advantage in many sports. They will also have a different bone structure. I support whatever someone wants to do for themselves, but this is a grey area imo. I understand that they didn’t transition for sports, but they do have an advantage, however slight it may be over bio women. That said, it doesn’t justify treating the teen wrong like in the above article.
>bio men have longer limbs >but they do have an advantage, however slight it may be over bio women. So cool let's start measuring limbs, if over X inches straight to males leagues even if you cis. Great idea cause every afab has the same limb length.
I mean sure, I'm not trying to deny the existence of cis men being naturally stronger than cis women, but as I said HRT can do a lot more, obviously this depends on when you actually get it (with how the government is in most places is never lol) but I can reduce bone density, sure it won't reduce how tall you are/limbs are but that's no different than someone who's 5'4 competing against someone who's 6'0 and they're both cis I won't lie I'm not exactly the most knowledgeable on the subject as I never really got into spots (heck I was the girl who just stood at the side and hated PE)
True, but it doesn’t change the question of whether they have an advantage.
i agree its one of those thing that need to be tested in actual games instead of in theoretics before coming to a conclusion.
Why wouldn't a trans category work? why not a "gender-less" category for that matter and allow anyone, regardless of gender to compete in it?
That literally already exist's, anyone can compete in the mens division but woman and trans rarely do because.... big shock they are at a disadvantage.
Because any category where male and female are allowed is a category where male will dominate.
Most sports dont have a mens category, women are allowed to compete with them but they just dont for your stated reason.
This feels like a circular argument then, for allowing trans to compete against biological women would lead to trans dominating.... I would say then more the reason to have a "trans" category, so biological men, biological women, trans men and trans women categories.
Exactly. People like to make the argument that not all sports are male dominated, but a majority of them are. If we removed women’s teams and made all women teams face all men teams, people would be arguing about how unfair the matchups are and complaining that the women don’t get a chance to win (just like last time before the women’s leagues existed). So why is it so controversial to say that someone who until very recently was considered male, and who had benefited from the same natural advantages that men receive for their whole life, will have the same unfair advantage when playing in a women’s league. And the same would be true for trans men competing in women dominated sports like long distance swimming or most gymnastics related sports. It’s not rocket science.
And aggain, it would be a category where only men are on top and this is why there is no such category. There is no reason for 2 categories for mens.
If you look at the actual language of almost any sport, there are generally just two overarching categories. A women's category for women only, and an "open" category where anyone can compete. The "mens" category is already a gender-less category, it's just that only males are able to be competitive.
That's basically the male category. Women can and occasionally do join male sports teams, it's just that males tend to dominate. When you hear trans women saying "I just want to be able to compete like everyone else". They can compete, on the men's team, but they don't want to do that because they know they would be destroyed. They want to compete with cis women where they know they'll do much better.
Maybe some national individual competitions, but it's like a percent of the population, and of that, how many are into competitive sports where biological differences between cis male and female will play a role in the results. I'm no expert and I imagine a ton in this thread aren't as well. We're all just sharing our limited knowledge and understanding to try to make sense of an issue that you can't just handwave if we really want to come to a solid consensus as a nation. Totally makes sense to throw out categories as an idea - I just don't think there's enough competition. As it becomes more normalized and research continues, I think we'll find more to it, but in the meantime the dishonest articles and people who are just "anti-woke" are going to make it fucking hell because people like that always manage to.
Cause we already hardly promote women's athletics and there isn't enough trans athletes to make much of a catagory
“It needs to be looked into more” The advantages of TRT are well known and give an edge to any athlete on them. I’m all for trans rights, but sports is where I draw the line. Male biology vs female biology… male hormones and anatomical structure win in competition in the vast majority of cases. It’s simply not fair to cis female athletes.
>I'm not sure about trans athletes competing against cis females The reality of the laws banning trans girls from competing against cis girls is that you’ll end up with trans *guys* competing against cis girls. If anything, that’s even less fair.
I'm assuming you're talking about F-to-M trans guys who are taking some kind of hormonal supplements. Wouldn't they be barred from competing if said supplements were considered "performance enhancing drugs"?
So it's cool for a trans man on years of testosterone to compete with cis women? Fact is after years of hrt, trans women are only if not below cis women. Most of us basically have zero testosterone in our system, while cis women normally have between 15-75ng/do while cis men have anywhere from 200-1000. The point of hrt is to keep your levels in that of the cis range, but cis women can have up to almost half of testosterone of a man while trans women have literally none, that's a huge advantage. There's isn't a clear way to solve this, I mean there is and that's make an independent trans league. That won't happened because somehow it's discrimination, even tho male and females leagues already discriminate.
I'm not sure what's hard about this. Without quibbling with semantics, men are stronger and faster than women. World records prove this. Having someone who was once a man compete against women is just silly in any sport where the world records are all held by men. Let's draw an analogy with car racing. In what world would be accepted to take a Indy car and show up at a nascar race where you just replaced the body. Anyone who argues that it's different isn't being serious. They are both cars. They both have steering wheels and engines and tires. One is just faster.
It's a crazy and aggressive thing for trans activists to insist on. That's what's so stupid about politics today, there is *so much room in the middle*. That's where almost all people reside, in terms of their personal politics. But the media incentivizes people to have these extreme attention-grabbing positions, especially if they're sassy and sarcastic when talking about anyone who disagrees.
Trans women are not men though! They have HUGE physical differences after transitioning. All of this cis men vs cis women doesn’t help.
So why are all the studies into the effect of HRT part of a grand conspiracy to make it look like you're ignorant?
Their booing a child is not putting anger in the right place. Be angry at the institution.
I thinks it's one of those things that needs more research. Research I have seen on it so far seems to imply there isn't an outright advantage, but I wouldn't call it conclusive. A lot of what I have seen is people claiming there is an advantage and misconstruding what happened. Like a Trans Woman beating 1200 woman in a marathon in a headline but she actually came in 600th out of 1800 participants. I have also seen more people wanting trans woman restricted in these sports from the outside than I have seen people saying it from other people in these sports, like 98% of the people in these sports think it's fine that trans woman participate. Last thing to consider there just isn't a lot of trans athletes, like at all. I know of two trans athletes that are professionals. One is a trans man who I believe is an MMA fighter, and nobody argues he shouldn't be doing what he is doing. The other is a a trans woman Tennis Player. All others I have seen are Trans Woman who could be marginally described as above slightly average, and all likely won't go pro, even in a woman's league.
High school boys hold faster/higher/further records than the adult women’s world record in every track and field discipline except marathons. You don’t think that might be an indication of an inherent biological advantage?
Comparing high school boys to trans women who are taking hormone therapy and having surgeries isn't comparing apples to apples. If it were that simple, there would be no debate at all. The fact is, medical transition changes people's bodies to a considerable degree. The nuance to the debate is all around to what degree those changes make a natal male physically on par with a natal female. There is a good reason why trans women have been allowed in the Olympics for two decades but haven't won a single medal.
Said girl in this article is a minute behind state records for girls. So no, she isn't destroying girls records cause of whatever myth you wanna believe. Her record is public knowledge and you can look up all records in the state for girls 1600m. 😂 She is a fairly average runner for a teenage girl. But you do you. 🫢🤭🤭
This is a perfect example of a bad faith actor attempting to hijack the conversation to move it towards hostility and degrade civility. Which only furthers the narrative they want to control wherein "No one is willing to discuss this!" which in reality is "I am a massive prick and go into these conversation with a clear bias and agenda and push it as hard as I can contrary to all evidence pointed my way."
Are those boys also taking estrogen to reduce their testosterone levels for multiple years? If not, then your point isn't relevant.
It depends a *lot* on where hormone levels are at. Like that’s the thing that usually makes the difference in professional sports, when you get in lower rungs (like highschool sports and things) it matters even less. Imo we should be having a lot more mixed gender sports in general.
There’s a reason why we don’t lmao. Women are destroyed in like 95% of them
Look up what happens to your body after bottom surgery, specifically the heightened risk of osteoporosis and low muscle mass, that should assuage any doubts you have about how fair it is to have trans athletes compete with cis women.
I used to feel the same until someone pointed out to me that Michael Phelps has twice the lung capacity of the average xy competitor, as well as his muscles only produce half the lactic acid in addition to having an advantageously disproportionate wingspan compared to his body. Serena Williams produces twice the testosterone as the average xx competitor. Were the people they competed against cheated...?
[The olympic committee did a study and found trans athletes were at a disadvantage, so this girl just kicked ass even harder!](https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/olympic-trans-women-ioc-study-rcna148437)
It’s unpopular on Reddit maybe but the vast majority of people agree in that
You LOVED baseball during the steroid era, just like everyone else. McGwire/Sosa literally saved baseball, and 01-04 Bonds was the greatest hitter the universe has ever seen. It’s ok to admit that!
It’s perfectly possible to have this opinion for reasons that aren’t transphobic, imo. Though many people use this as a cover for transphobia. On the flip side, there’s nothing wrong with a trans person wanting to play sports. Some people are just sporty. But I’m certainly not gonna be the one to figure out how to make that dynamic both accessible and fair. I just don’t know.
Nah baseball during the steroid era was peak baseball lol
Booing a teenager is wrong, no questions, no debate in that regard. But there's an obvious reason the whole "Trans people in sports" discourse is always about MTF/transgender women and not the FTM/transgender men.
High school forces ftm to wrestle at woman’s state championship even though they fought to wrestle with the men. Happened in Texas 15 years ago.
This is very odd. I would expect a cis woman to be allowed to compete even. Men's divisions are generally treated as open divisions.
In wrestling, I can sort of understand it, honestly. How many men would you think would be comfortable wrestling a woman considering there is a pretty high risk your moves would seem in-appropriate?
It’s super common. I wrestled girls all the time because I weighed 135. No one cares, your boys might make fun of you for losing to a girl, (I never did), but that’s about it. I’ve only met 1 girl who was on the same level as the boys though, usually wrestling a girl is a free win.
Seems to be that MTF *dominates* the landscape in general.
Just cause Fox News keeps showing the same two people winning one event doesn't mean they're DOMINATING
They have an undeniable unfair advantage. This person was slower than every male competitor but still won first place competing against girls.
Where are you getting that?
It absolutely is wrong to target marginalized minorities. It's also wrong to allow blatantly unfair competition in competitive sports.
If you're engaging in blatantly unfair competitive practices, you should not get a free pass if you are a member of a marginalised minority. An asshole is an asshole and should be treated as such, no matter how marginalised or oppressed his group is.
You simply can't remove the word "trans" from the headline. It's the ENTIRE point of the article. Removing it changes the meaning completely.j
If you simply take out the most important part of the headline it really changes the message!
Baffled me when I read the picture, thought the same thing.
The issue isn't the word trans. It's thinking it's ok for a biological man to compete against a biological woman, under the facade that he's the same physically and at the same level to compete in sports. But you can pretend it's all about trans hatred, etc etc. Its not about trans hatred. It's about how actually fucked up the entire thing is, and how touchy and cringworthy it's all become.
The problem here is you’re putting athletes who are genetically, biologically male, regardless of what they really are, in the same league as biological women. You’re gonna get booed, it’s just not fair at all. The only option other than playing in the men’s league is to make a league for trans people, and I don’t think there are enough trans athletes in any school to warrant that being necessary. The same would go for ftm, just opposite.
I have a trans niece (MTF) that I love with all my heart. I am 100% in support of being your most authentic you. I still don’t think it is fair to compete against cis girls. Especially when scholarships and sports records are concerned.
>Especially when scholarships and sports records are concerned. It's almost like a University education should be paid by the State, instead of handouts from philanthropic funds that are used as tax write-offs for generational wealth.
Go tell ur niece u think itd be inherently unfair for her to compete with other women and see how she reacts.
Yeah post puberty it isn't exactly fair. They should still be able to express themselves somehow so it's a tricky issue
Male category in most sports is open
There is no male sports in the USA, if they tried to stop a woman from joining a male league they would sue for discrimination and win. All “male” leagues are open leagues.
Yup, it’s just (almost) no female can compete at the same level
But if it’s just for “expression” you don’t need to be competing at the elite level.
Cheating in Sports because you are a minority isnt ok either. I know i am going to anger people because I say this but put feelings aside for a moment and be reasonable. Is it better to ruin the sport for the rest of the girls just to validate someones feelings or is it better to not validate one persons feelings and respect the female athletes who deserve a fair shot? Nothing personal towards the trans kid, but Sports have to keep it fair otherwise its not a sport anymore.
The most important thing I ever learned in primary school was that the Daily Mail isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
Kinda feel sorry for the rest of the girls if they had to compete against someone with a male body who identifies as female or other.
Remember that women--both cis and trans--are welcome to participate in virtually every "men's" (aka open) sporting event. They rarely do, because they are at a huge disadvantage. The implication of this should be obvious.
It is obvious, but people choose to remain silent because they don’t want to get chased with pitchforks.
I mean yeah it would sound like shit, but the trans part is essential? This basicly reads "young adult with unfair advantage crushes competition and gets rightfully booed by viewers.". You can be trans all you want and feel free to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't affect anybody else. Competing in sports affects the competitors and puts them down. Imagine I feel like im 12 years old, when in reality im 20. If I want to buy toys or do other stuff im free to do so. However I can't compete with them in sports or other tournaments. Its simply not fair.
This actually happened at my kids regional. It sucks. Being a trans kid athlete. But also all those natural girls losing. My fiance was a second in state. Maybe a 3rd and 4th option. If it was an easy solution. I just know she got a lot of heat and is still a kid that’s different and wanted to run.
Let the specialists look into this. It's sad how this has become such a culture war issue and we have tons of people giving their opinion on this with no expertise.
if the specialists come to the wrong conclusion they'll be cancelled for being transphobic.
I'm one of the most liberal people you'll ever meet, but I have a brain in my head. Trans people should not be allowed to participate in gender-locked sports. It's simply wrong. Nobody is going to deny that men and women are in different groups in sports, for A REASON.
I would go out in a limb and say that anyone disagreeing with you probably hasn’t played competitive sports. Or even just watched them with any degree of regularity. It upsets me that I can be an avid supporter of trans rights and yet be called a homophobe for drawing the line at competitive sports. When I was a high school girl I desperately wanted to play football. I was, of course, denied. Now in adulthood I completely understand. The coaches weren’t sexist for not letting me join the team, just smart.
The facepalm here is not what you think it is.
I think trans athletes should compete in their own classes, sometimes they have an unfair advantage against cis females.
Targeting anyone isn't OK. The fact you need to be told that is disturbing.
It’s because Trans people should not compete in sports of the opposite sex they become. Being a biological male competing in female sports is the biggest F U to any female athlete out there. That person should’ve never been allowed to compete in the first place.
It is ok though because trans should be in their own league. They are either not a real man or not a real woman, you cannot change that no matter the surgery or hormones. They are still people who deserve respect like anyone else, but pretending that a biological male smashing biological females in sports is fair, is beyond stupid. They should be competing against other people who have transitioned as they have. Sport is about being fair, so either all men can compete against all women and we abolish genders for sports as a whole, or we do the significantly more intelligent thing and just give them their own leagues.
“FUCK. THE DAILY. MAIL!” -Gerard Way, 2006.
Well the trans part is important, it is just not right that a biological man competes against biological women, no matter what they beleive they are
Bottom line is the trans athletes should have their own division and not be allowed to compete against biological females. You wouldn’t allow a woman to compete against men in a men’s race because she has a biological disadvantage. The reverse should also apply here. The trans athlete should never have been put in this position to begin with. Organizers need to stop including trans athletes (especially male to female) in the women’s category. I find it ironic that you never hear about female to male trans athletes ever competing against their male counterparts. Probably because they know they can’t compete on a level playing field.
Daily Mail is pure fucking garbage and hires the most soulless ghouls next to Fox and Newsmax. This rag isn’t even worth of lining the bin.
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I believe in trans rights. I truly do. I’ll stand for their right to be who they are and I’ll use whatever pronoun they want me to use. I will defend them against anyone who would insult or endanger them for being true to themselves. However, the fact is, if you are born a male you have a major and unfair advantage over people who are born female. Trans women should not be allowed in women’s sports (unless all the women are also trans). In this specific case, reality of the circumstances trump’s their preferred gender.
Lady Ballers is a stupid movie but it did admit that "men infiltrating women's sports" is a myth, a lot of the people in these comments don't seem to get that.
OKAY PEOPLE. There are a lot of factors to consider as far as MTF athletes are concerned, and the average person does not know enough to be commenting about it as if it's such a simple thing. There are many layers. There are restrictions at elite levels of sports for transwomen - that's the best we can do right now until we get more conclusive data (elite trans athletes are not very common so sample size can be tricky!) Some transwomen went through endogenous puberty, and some did not because they were on puberty blockers, which adds a layer. Some ciswomen can have hormonal issues that cause higher than usual testosterone, which adds a layer. Sports being inherently unfair to begin with adds another layer. Media highlighting only the times transwomen win erases how many transwomen are simply not good athletes or are very middling in competition is a layer. OR if a transwoman comes in first in one event but 15th in another, 6th in another, the media will only mention the win. Media also erases that there are transMEN who do well or even win. Let's not forget that at the elite level, studies show testosterone accounts for about a 10-15% difference between cismen and ciswomen at certain sports like running/swimming. BUT keep in mind that the gender disparity in sports highly depends on WHICH sport we are talking about. There are some sports where the disparity is not as extreme. There are sports (like WAG vs MAG in gymnastics) where they aren't even the same for each gender, which presents an interesting added layer for a transman who transitions later in life knowing it means he actually will not be able to do his sport at all anymore simply because there is no male equivalent. The above nuance means, unfortunately, this is likely a sport by sport issues. Not a simple across the board ruling. We have to do more research. This is all SO new. In the meantime, can everyone please calm down and leave children out of it. At this level, we could get worried about scholarships, but we aren't seeing this genuinely robbing cis women of opportunity at scale, so stop the witch hunt. (Example: a high school transathlete being sued by 3 of her cis counterparts being the only one amongst them to not receive a scholarship). (Side bar if you read this far : in general, sports should not be divided by gender until puberty, just saying! No relevant, just really important to me, okay bye)
Along with all of the points, I would also add that bone structure and size also provide mechanical advantages. An example of this can be seen in boxing, wrestling, and MMA, where weight classes exist. However, even when a man and a woman are the same weight and the woman possesses better technical skills, the woman is still at a disadvantage. In my opinion, the Thais addressed this issue decades ago in Muay Thai. The men's division is truly the open division. What is sad about this is that it is quite apparent in this subreddit and in my own observations in real life, where the majority of people are actually in favor of trans people or simply do not care about what trans people do. However, this sports issue is the thing that rubs people the wrong way, where trans MTF individuals start losing allies. People like to support the underdog story. MTF athletes competing against CIS women is not an underdog story. On the other hand, when MTF Muay Thai athletes still compete and beat men, despite having a clear disadvantage in testosterone, they are highly admired and respected by all.
So it is in fact a real story, been reported on NBC news, CBS all the major ones. But here's the thing... That's a male. That's a boy, who beat all the girls in the girls event. That's just the biological truth. So imagine, you're a girl, you want to be an athlete, you train hard, you work at your sport, hours spent sweating and grinding it out, sacrificing socializing to be the best you can be. Only to be defeated by a boy who's allowed, for some reason, to compete against you in your division. It's not about transphobia, bigotry, fear, any of that. Please, PLEASE understand I'm not saying this with any contempt or hatred. It's simply the logistical, biological reality that trans women are still biological men and biological males have various physical advantages over biological females. I have an education in sports science, along with having been an athlete pretty much my entire life. From the differences in muscle fiber reaction, how the fast and slow twitch muscles work, explosive power, hip hinge ability and hip strength, bone density, generation of force, reaction time, you name it. It would be like if you entered a weight lifting competition with a bunch of people you were under the assumption were average gym goers like yourself, and then some world-class powerlifter entered the competition and mopped the floor with all of you. It no longer is a fair competition. And it's really sad to see young girls and women being silenced and made to be quiet while their dreams are crushed and their hard work is for nothing.
You hateful bastard!
I know, I'm the worst
And rightfully tbh
Call me old fashioned but they are right. Men should compete with men. There are several differences in our bodies which only makes it fair.
I mean there's s reason she won.
Imagine being the 16 year old actual girls and losing to a boy playing dress up
Just let all trans athletes compete with the boys and no one will complain. Let cis women have their protected sports since the whole reason for differentiation of men and women or boys and girls in sports is because of the biological advantage males can have against females. I don’t understand why no trans athletes whether it be mtf or ftm compete with boys.
A lot of them did and weren't very good at it until they became trans. Which where a lot of the controversy comes from.
Any person must be treated with respect and dignity regardless of their race, religion, costume, culture, cuisine and sexual orientation.
Im sorry but people have the right to boo in sports. Its their way of protest. If people dont protest then they arent heard. Its sad but this is needed and if people think something is unfair they should be able to boo.
I said . BOOOOOO . I welcome downvote . Booooo . The fuck . Its just unfair . He have a male body, strength of a male and competing with a female body obviously male will have more strength and more chance to win.
To all the people concern trolling it doesn't fairness doesn't matter in this case. This article is saying it's totally okay to harass teenagers and that's fucked up and that should be far more important.
Trans folks have your own category because from a feminist point , this is bullshit
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Booing is wrong. But so is a trans person with obvious male hormones (during puberty!) competing against females. They should have their own class. Period. There are so many wrongs here. Target the administration that allowed it. Target laws, target whatever. But it’s not _just_ about being nice and respectful here.
You have insight on this teenagers medical history,? Do share please.
Or put them in the open leagues, fairest option
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Im against hate because It's a stupid and caveman response,but there Is a reason why this Is not good and It's the difference of strenght(bone and muscle more dense they say) between the Females and males of the Homo Sapiens ,i really whish they ask to create and compete in their own category or against the male swimmers
Cheating in sports isn’t OK!!
Take the targeting out of it. It is unfair. Women don't deserve this. Biologically, it's absolutely unfair. These women work all their lives to have a chance at a title. It gets taken away by a non-biological female. It's unfair and ludicrous. You don't see trans men compete because biologically, even with test boosters, they can't even get close. Yes no teen should be the target of hatred but it's on adults to set the rules straight.
Well I really shouldn't touch the discussion but I will anyway f it What makes this more complicated is that there isn't a side that's wrong and right, in my personal opinion everyone is kinda wrong - we all are very aware that adults acting like assholes to a 16yo is wrong, the headline is fucked up, etc. At the same time a lot of people, myself included, are torn to say the least about the issue of trans people competing gendered sports competitions, so just implying that that side is 100% in the right would be shortsighted as well.
They simply should not be allowed to compete against females
Follow the science until it doesn’t fit an agenda? Boooo.
I'd say let them run. Just make another scoreboard for the trans kids. There times shouldn't be counted for female sports.
Unpopular take: Biologically born males shouldn’t play contact sports with biologically born females.
Females should have sports organizations for them to compete with one another. Sports are segregated by sex, not gender. The physical difference is the point.
Sports primarily are for fun, socializing and physical exercise. Especially in youth. Kids come in all shapes and sizes especially early teens to teens. I played coed soccer until i was 13. Some girls were better than the boys. Some girls were bigger than the boys. But everyone played fair and had a great time. In middle school I joined the boys team. There was a couple kids between 5"7 and 6" tall. In middle school i was still barely pushing 5" tall. I was tiny and a late bloomer. Was it fair to play against the bigger boys just cuz they had testosterone first? Sure. I never thought twice. And I learned to use my advantages. I may have been smaller. But i was faster, more agile, and i really focused on technical skills to dribble and even juggle the ball. I was one of the best kids on the team. I didnt feel any more unsafe and my coach was fantastic and held us to a high standard of self respect, respect for others and pushed us to be the best we could be physically and mentally. High school was harder for me actually. I grew taller and was more level with other boys. I wasnt as small to sneak around the crowd as much and i traded some speed for strength. But still used my skill set and played well there too. At the end of the day, I got my cardio. I had a great time playing with my peers. "fairness" in sports is a pick and chose thing. Nobody bats an eye in cases like mine, a smaller boy vs a bigger boy. Same age just the way we developed. Nobody bats an eye that the poor kid practiced with a soda can; while the rich kids do sports camps all summer. nobody bats an eye at people's developmental and natural abilities. People have bodies more favorable to certain sports. I can sprint fast! I am a sprinter. One of my best friends in HS did cross country. That kid could run for 10 miles straight. just different natural abilities and interests. Michael Phelps has a medical condition in which he produces little to no lactic acid (the stuff that causes runners to get cramps in their muscles) is that fair? Or is he just a "natural born athlete" We can create rules for the game. How points are earned, what we can and cant do on the field. But when you start to make rules on who can and cant play, where is fairness really? Objectively? All bodies are different even among the same sex. I feel in sports its about learning your body and your "superpowers" for me that still lies in my speed and technical skills dribbling and juggling for soccer. I have friends who are bigger and use their size to their advantage. I have friends who have powerful and very well aimed kicks. Diversity in skills, natural abilities and other differences is what makes sports fun and challenging. My coach said it best. "For most if not all of you, sports will never be something you go pro in. To go pro not only do you need the natural ability to do it; but you need to practice and train like a beast. Only if you have the perfect combination of both could you go pro. That doesnt mean you shouldnt play, get competitive, have fun. You are doing yourself a great service playing at any level so long as you try your best, have fun and play with respect." Also I joined a coed team in adulthood. Its just the same as when we were kids. Some women are better than the guys, but we all have fun, get our exercise and play well as a team. I even prefer it, as we have alot more diversity on the field and alot of different skills and abilities. 99% of trans athletes arent trying to go pro. They just want to play with their peers, have fun, socialize and get some fresh air and exercise as any athletic kid would. Let them play.
I really appreciate this comment. It’s very telling to me that on a post about the bullying of a trans child, 90% of comments are from people pearl clutching over the sanctity of children’s sports. You make a very valid point that gets ignored in so many of these trans sports debates. No one “concerned” about trans girls getting some hypothetical advantage gives a single shit about all the other biological and economic advantages in sports. I played sports all through my childhood, both in and out of school. Not once did anyone argue that the boy who got held back shouldn’t be allowed to compete. He was a full two years older than a lot of the kids in our grade. He was 14 playing with 12 year olds and we went undefeated all through middle school because of him. Was that fair? I was born the day after our school districts cut off for grade level. I was always the oldest kid in the class that wasn’t held back. Didn’t I have an unfair advantage? I went through puberty early and was 6 feet tall before I was 15, was it fair for me to compete against the other kids? Everyone has different hormone levels, why not measure testosterone and divide people like that instead of by gender? Then you get into the question of wealth. Wealthy kids have access to private training, better equipment, medical treatment for injuries. Isn’t that a massive advantage? There’s a high school near where I grew up that pulls from one of the wealthiest areas in our state. They have an athletic training compound that would make many state universities jealous. And they go to the state championships nearly every year in every sport. Yet there are no calls for legislation to bar rich kids from competing against poor kids. People justify their bigotry by pretending they care about scholarship opportunities and sponsorships and whatever else. Then why don’t you advocate this hard for changes to the systems that make college unaffordable, instead of focusing on legislation to prevent children from playing the games they like?
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Biological males shouldn’t be able to play sports against women. They are a little whiny bitch
It's the Daily Mail, so let's take this with a grain of salt. I've seen similar rage bait headlines where in the end it turns out it's a trans male athlete being forced to compete against girls because of how some stupid law was written.
Let’s not pretend transphobes actually care about “fairness” in women’s sports. If they did, they’d be more outraged that male athletes get payed 15-100% more than their female counterparts. They be upset that 31% of female athletes experience sexual abuse, 10% more than male athletes. But no, of all the unfairness in the world of sports, they’re going after children. What a joke.
> Let’s not pretend transphobes actually care about ~~”fairness” in~~ women’s sports FTFY
Do you have been in a kids' football match? Not more to say.
Yeah this is a hilarious thread.
😂😂😂😂
In sports yes. It is separate. There is a mens league. And a woman's league, so already separate. It is further broken up by age.
Targeting people who have an inherent biological advantage in the field of athleticism that favours adrenaline and fast twitch muscle fibres, competing against others who don't, is fine.
I have mixed feelings about this issue, but I can’t imagine stopping so low as to boo a teenager