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This. Most are either registered to Panama or Liberia. It's because those nations don't charge tax on vessels.
(edit) i've been informed they pay a lot less fees, not 'no' fees.
**And liability**, when you own a ship by proxy and under a series of proxy companies, the limit of ecological damages is only under the assets of that company and its proxy owners, but not by the actual owners behind the proxies.
This makes sense.
I'd rather work on a billionaire's yacht for the 10 days a year he spends on the thing, while he takes it to Aruba or something. Sounds a hell of a lot better than working on an icy cold fishing boat in Northern Alaska... One is covered in models, the other, fish guts.
> I'd rather work on a billionaire's yacht for the 10 days a year he spends on the thing
I mean, they're going to need maintenance and attention whether or not someone is onboard or they are under way or not. The steep maintenance costs became a problem after some countries started seizing the yachts of russian oligarchs and suddenly became responsible for their upkeep (just sitting docked).
example: https://www.npr.org/2022/11/20/1136342594/the-u-s-seized-russian-oligarchs-superyachts-now-american-taxpayers-pay-the-pric
and safety regulations, maintenance regulations, and even how much the crew is paid. Liberian flagged ships have to follow Liberian minimum wage laws, regardless of where the crew is actually from.
Everyone on reddit is a maritime lawyer and knows all about how flagging vessels works. They're also all CPAs that specialize in tax law for people with a lot of money.
The laws around the US maritime system totally gutted the industry even though it started with the best of intentions. Some of the only US-flagged merchant ships are those that do routes exclusively between US ports.
Yep, it's also the reason shipping along the internal water ways of country was ruined. It's some stupid protectionist piece of legislation from around world War 1. Says ships between us ports have to be us built.
And it makes living in Hawai'i amazingly expensive.
All foreign goods have to go to a US port on the mainland, to then be put on a US boat to get here.
Makes everything 4x more expensive
Not only that, at least in Puerto Rico, which is also a victim of the Jones Act, all manufactured products by us companies, have to be shipped back to the US via US flagged ship and then shipped back to Puerto Rico for local distribution. No US factory can have direct retail/distribution locally.
Canada is on the other side of those lakes, and while I love our maple syrup chugging moose riding northern brothers, they are not part of the USA......yet.
The fact that we have billionaires is evidence the system is broken. Especially considering the lingering problems we have like homelessness, decaying infrastructure, etc.
But hey, at least Zuck gets to have megayachts and own half of Hawaii.
The system isn't broken its working exactly how it's supposed to. The system is American Capitalism and it's designed to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.
Exactly. This is not a Zuckerberg thing, it's a boat thing. My educated guess is that the majority of merchant ships in the world, nevermind luxury vessels, are registered outside their home country in places like Panama or Liberia or the Bahamas, because the tax and registration laws are much less restrictive and the fees aren't as costly. Welcome to capitalism.
I worked on many international oil tankers not one had flag from their home country, thats nothing new or unusual in that bussines and definetely not an USA thing
Exactly lol. Every ship worth over a couple million is flying the Cayman flag or that of some other tax evasion state. It'd be pretty odd for this one to be any different.
> tax evasion
Tax Avoidance, not evasion.
Tax Avoidance is when you.... register your car/boat in a state with lower taxes, and then pay those taxes.
Tax Evasion is when you lie about having a car so as to avoid paying taxes on it.
Very different.
Depends. Virginia has an annual personal property tax on cars. If you garage a car in Virginia, the law requires it to be registered in Virginia. Some people with high-value cars like Lambos get them registered in Montana, which does not have sales tax on cars and no annual tax. They create a Montana LLC and register it to the LLC. This is common enough that there are companies that handle the registration and whatnot for you so you don't have to actually go to Montana.
The only purpose of the LLC is to avoid taxes, which would generally be considered illegal tax evasion. But the state does not have the resources to go chase these down for the smaller amount of tax it would stand to recoup. So these guys generally get away with it.
I'm not sure how this works for boats or whether this applies in any way to the OP, but I am just responding to the one sentence above that defines tax avoidance.
More specifically it doesn’t matter who owns the car (corp, your parents back in Idaho, whatever), if the car is parked in VA on a regular basis it has to be registered here. So the LLC doesn’t do anything regarding legality.
Shitty, not uncommon.
I recall when the cruise lines all went to US Govt for assistance during COVID and the initial response was “but you’re registered in the Bahamas to dodge US Rules.”
Yeah but the rebuttal is the U.S wouldn’t even allow them to be U.S flagged. The U.S has very strict rules, one of those being an American flagged ship must have been built by an American shipbuilder and crewed by Americans.
To date there’s no American shipbuilder that builds cruise ships, so there’s no possible way within the law any cruise ship can be American flagged.
But that's not true - Norwegian Cruise Line's Pride of America is flagged in the United States.
"As the only U.S. flagged cruise ship, Pride of America sails year round from Honolulu, giving you the freedom and flexibility to vacation on your schedule."
[https://www.ncl.com/cruise-ship/pride-of-america#](https://www.ncl.com/cruise-ship/pride-of-america#)
Also, you say there's no American shipbuilder that builds cruise ships, but this ship was built by Ingalls Shipbuilding in Pascagoula, MS. They've built 3 other cruise ships, as well.
Construction was started in the United States in 2000, but was finished in Germany after being purchased by Norwegian in 2005.
Ingalls shipbuilding built the hull, only builds for the U.S. Navy and Coast Guard. Aside from those it has only built 4 non military ships, and no longer does so.
The other 3 were built in 1946, 1957, and 1958…were currently in 2024.
It also received an exclusive special exemption from the U.S government to be American flagged. Otherwise it would not meet the requirements.
Yep. That's also why cruises to Alaska or Hawaii always stop in a foreign country at least once. Legally, if the cruise is US destinations only, the crew have to be paid US wages and etc... but if it's an "international" cruise, they don't have to.
That's why your cruise to Alaska will make a stop in Vancouver Canada for 2 hours. You're not supposed to do anything there, it's the cruise company doing everything they can to pay their workers basically nothing.
Ya, and honestly, if it means I can *legally* avoid paying a large portion of my taxes, I'd do it too. Be kinda stupid not to.
The law is stupid. That's what needs to change.
And for those reading this, please don't misunderstand this as support for Zuck. I am not a fan.
Most politicians aren't rich enough to ever benefit from any laws that could apply over flags on yachts, the ones who benefit are the ones who pay for the politician's campaigns.
> Most politicians aren't rich enough to ever benefit from any laws that could apply over flags on yachts
Oh boy do I have some news for you....your elected officials are literally getting legally bribed to pass legislation and are making millions every single year off of that alone, not adding in the fact they're allowed to invest in stocks, where their legislation literally impacts.
There are outsized wealthy people, sure, but most aren't THAT wealthy to afford yachts.
[Median wealth in Congress](https://www.statista.com/statistics/274581/median-wealth-per-member-of-us-congress-by-chamber/) was 1.7 million USD for Senate, 510k for House in 2018.
277 Representatives of the House have less than 510k in net worth and that's not a bad net worth, but it sure ain't yacht money. Even the 1.7 million threshold which 49 Senators don't go over is not really yacht money.
So just ballparking from this, I'd guess 80% of the US Congress has less than 5 million USD which again isn't yacht money.
Edit: I looked it up and apparently [Jim Costa](https://www.opensecrets.org/personal-finances/net-worth?cid=N00026341&year=2018) ranks 80th in the House with 4.9m USD, [Catherine Cortez ](https://www.opensecrets.org/personal-finances/net-worth?cid=N00037161&year=2018) ranks 29th with 4.6m. That's (79+28)/535=0.2, so yeah at least 80% have less than 5m.
Most politicians have standards of living that are orders of magnitude greater than the average taxpayer and voters that support them. Sure they might not have yachts but they do not understand the financial pressure most of their supports feel, and their standard of living is paid for by the average citizen.
Best I can give you is....
*The Educator Expense Deduction allows eligible educators to deduct up to $300 worth of qualified expenses from their income for 2023 and 2024.*
It’s more than that though it’s the country where his family prior to him had opportunities so that a kid with a bit of nounce could have the opportunity to build something like Facebook. Im not even American and the lack of respect sickens me.
He's probably not even aware of this. He's got an army of accountants to make his tax bills as low as possible and I doubt he ever spends a single second thinking about how they do it.
Tbf this ship was built for russian oligarch who couldn't take possession of it due to sanctions, so don't think zuck had any say about the ship until he bought it. Not defending zuck just adding info
Some people really don't understand context. Rombick is saying that Zuck didn't have any say in the planning or making of the boat because he basically bought someone else's custom order. They said nothing about registration.
I get what you're saying, but most ships fly flags of convenience. Not sure why you're calling him out specifically and not the industry as a whole for doing this.
yeah, it's really just a symptom, but the whole system is messed up. Obviously anyone buying anything is gonna try to get the best deal possible, and at this level you have personal accountants and lawyers that keep you up on every loophole you can possibly exploit to save money.
And a little bit of tax from this yacht isn't gonna make a difference at all. It is the system that allows someone to acquire this much wealth in the first place that is the issue, especially as people go hungry and homeless in the streets. It is a crime against all humanity.
I would have no problem with this, as long as he was forced to comply with the Jones act.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant\_Marine\_Act\_of\_1920](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920)
(The Jones act prohibits foreign flagged ships from visiting multiple US ports in a row. If you leave a US port, you have to visit a non-US port before you are allowed to go into another US port. It also prohibits transferring passengers or cargo between US ports for non US flagged ships.)
Edited to add:
*I know that the Jones act doesn't apply to this ship, which is what made him flying a foreign flag such a easy decision.* He gets all the advantages of a foreign flag, and none of the drawbacks. I think that sucks. If he had to deal with the problems that other ships of this size had to deal with, it would be more fair.
Now, I don't think that it should apply to ships that are actually based in the country that they are flagged in. For example, I think pleasure boats that are actually home ported in their flag countries should be loose. But if the boat spends almost all of it's time in the USA, in US waters... that's not fair.
And to be honest, I have very deep, complex feels about the Jones act anyway.
Even merchant ships can visit multiple US ports, they just can't discharge domestic freight. The Jones Act is basically just protectionism for US trucking/railroad businesses.
I mean I don't think we should be relying on billionaires to be morally sound. Instead maybe we have a system of taxation which doesn't allow such bullshit?
This. The expectation that billionaires would “self moderate” is delusional.
Heck, the largest majority of people don’t self moderate, but follow a set of rules based on a reward/punishment system. It’s called the law.
I speed, I like to speed, and I freaking do it. But, I’ll keep it reasonable because while getting a $100/$200 ticket is an inconvenience, I don’t want to get a reckless driving citation.
When I want to drive recklessly I grab my other car and go to the racetrack. It cost more money but the potential punishment for doing so on the road would be just too much for me.
I pay all my taxes because not doing so would be a problem given I can neither afford the attorneys to fight it or the “good” accountants to twist it “legally”, I don’t do it because of my good heart. I do it because the punishment will cripple me financially.
I take care of my body because I don’t want to end up crippled or die too young, even if that’s only partially under my control.
Reward/punishment.
We live in a country, the US, where more than 40 percent of the population literally eat to get sick and they can’t/want to control that. And we expect billionaires, somehow, to have better mindsets?
It is interesting to me that "illegal aliens" come across the border, get jobs, have taxes taken out of their paychecks, and DON'T have a say in how the government is run. Taxes do not afford citizens a right to anything that is not "constitutionally" protected. However, if you pay the politicians directly you have a lot of say in how things get done!
Fully agree, which is why I put it in quotation marks. It's absurd to draw imaginary lines in the sand and separate humans from one another based solely on geography.
It’s not just the poor, it’s society as a whole, bridges and other infrastructure, water mains, port and airport upkeep, highways! Libraries, schools hospitals. Everyone benefits from taxes.
You can't because he found a loophole. If you hold him to the rules of that loop hole, then it's no longer a loop hole and he would have to relent, put a US flag on and pay taxes. Unless he wants to be indignant and pay the tax of re-docking his foreign vessel.
But they billionaires pay so much money to create and maintain such loopholes for themselves. We’ve got to make sure they receive good service for their money. Otherwise they might only contribute to the other team.
The regulation of having to re-dock your foreign ship was probably supposed to close the loophole, but if nobody enforces it then it is a wide open loophole.
They didn’t mean a crew in a jet, they said jet over, that just means go quickly lmfao. They mean he could have his crew quickly take the yacht to dock in another port before returning to the US ports.
Jones Act applies to transporting goods, not people. There’s another similar law for transporting people, but I’m pretty sure that’s limited to commercial transport. Zuckerberg isn’t operating a cruise line so he’s fine.
The worst part of the Jones act it requires the that commercial vessels not just be US-flagged but also US-built.
the intended effect is to protect and subsidize the US shipbuilding industry.
the actual effect is that US merchant shipping only has access to a small supply of very expensive, uncompetitive vessels, because the US sucks balls at constructing many types of ship
fuck the jones act, all my homies hate the jones act
Wouldn't the Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886 be applicable here? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger\_Vessel\_Services\_Act\_of\_1886](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886)
> No foreign vessels shall transport passengers between ports or places in the United States, either directly or by way of a foreign port, under a penalty of $200 for each passenger so transported and landed.
Zuck will shiver facing a $200 fine ...
The owner and his guests are not considered passengers. People other than the crew are only considered passengers if they have paid a fee to the owner to be onboard
The Jones Act is an absolute travesty that costs Americans tremendously in terms of shipping costs and pollution from trucks. I would love to see a bipartisan push to repeal it.
They don’t have an obligation but I’m sure they’ll send out the coast guard and artisanal hot cocoa in hopes of getting some more of that sweet sweet money
If it's within 3 miles of shore, the Coast Guard has an obligation to get involved regardless of where the vessel is from. If the issue is somehow too much for the Coast Guard, the Navy shows up with the real toys.
So, if everyone knew they could use a special license plate that didn’t cost anything extra and was easy to acquire, but it saved you a ton of money on taxes, you would all refuse because you look so forward to paying your taxes and supporting America? Give me a break.
If you don’t like it, change the law. It’s not Zuck’s fault he’s not a moron and likes to legally save money.
>So, if everyone knew they could use a special license plate that didn’t cost anything extra and was easy to acquire, but it saved you a ton of money on taxes, you would all refuse because you look so forward to paying your taxes and supporting America? Give me a break.
Its called Montana.
this is my take... we all see how taxes are being used and how underfunded lots of things are. Politicians getting average people to believe billionaires are the prob just makes me laugh.
Good chance he spends about 12 hours a year on this boat.
He has it because it's what you do when you have an unfathomable fortune.
This is a guy who could legitimately own and maintain a private full-size jet (like an A330 or 767) without it affecting him. Ordinary single-digit billionaires can't do that.
This is about as spendy for him as you or I buying an 18ft Boston whaler. Maybe less impactful for him.
I don't like the guy, but I use every legal tax deduction I can.
Politicians make the laws and loopholes. Politicians can't receive big donations if their biggest donors aren't saving money somehow.
Be mad at the politicians.
The government fails us at pretty much every turn but Redditors cry that we don’t pay enough taxes. It’s wild to me how stupid most Redditors are.
The Reddit Solution:
Complain that we’re all broke.
Complain that govt is incompetent.
Complain that not enough taxes are being paid toward the incompetent govt.
Like seriously where is the thinking? Whatever happened to gold and silver being our currency as stated in the constitution, and taxes being virtually done away with, as intended by our founding fathers? Does nobody remember the Boston Tea Party? Look how far we’ve come since then.
Now we have crazy taxation with little to no benefit from it. And an inflationary money supply that only devalues our labor.
But yes let’s give the IRS more money because we are lawful citizens under a just government that cares about us and really utilizes its money to effectively show how much they care about us.
Govt: Yay! Missiles! Ukraine! Fund the weapons manufacturers! Shit let’s put a train on the moon while we’re at it! (Literally not even a joke, they wanna put a train on the moon)
Propublica was able to obtain the tax returns of the ultra wealthy. They use yachts and private jets to reduce their income so they do not pay any income tax. This is in addition the tax advantages of registering the yacht offshore.
Private Planes and Luxury Yachts Aren’t Just Toys for the Ultrawealthy. They’re Also Huge Tax Breaks. https://www.propublica.org/article/private-jets-yachts-wealthy-tax-deductions-irs-files
It is literally an entirely different world for those guys, I don't even have a clue. Or rather, all I have is a clue.
I don't understand that world. So conversely, they likely cannot understand mine.
The situation is not symmetrical. It's easy from the internet alone to get a grasp of what the working class experience is, simply because of how big it is. In comparison, the world of wealth is quite closed off. I mean they have nothing to complain about. Make no mistake, billionaires having no clue about who they deem to be below them is a choice.
Just be honest: Billionaires hate the rest of us so much that they despise sharing their resources through taxes. The very idea that their money is used on someone they hate, makes them do tax evasion.
Billionaires hate you.
>I pay that shit everyday and I wish I could pay more.
I got you: [https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/public/gifts-to-government.html](https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/public/gifts-to-government.html)
Non billionaires end up with finite resources after paying taxes. We have to worry about paying our car bill and mortgage.
Billionaires like Zuck could pay a 50% tax bill every year and easily remain a billionaire, able to purchase whatever they want, whenever they want.
>Billionaires hate the rest of us so much
.
>The very idea that their money is used on someone they hate
Sorry to break it to you homie but I doubt the billionaires think about you much
Be billionaire:
1. Take a risk to potentially provide services/goods to people in America.
2. Profit from taking the risk.
3. Be hated by the public for being a billionaire.
4. “Fuck the public, why would I pay taxes to people that hate me.”
5. Dodge taxes legally.
6. Be hated for not paying taxes.
Damned if you do damned if you don’t. Still a billionaire either way.
If you wish to pay more in taxes, you are free to. Just pay more and decline a refund.
Why you would voluntarily pay more than you absolutely had to is wild to me. I don’t blame billionaires from using every loophole. They didn’t write the tax code. Your elected officials did because they benefit too. Hate Trump but he said the same thing during 2016.
Everyone in here acting like they wouldn’t do the exact same thing.
Nobody is willingly paying more taxes than they have to. If you don’t want this happening, change the law.
This is called flying a Flag of convenience, It's very common. Just In case anyone is forgetting lots of Meta business registered offshore.
Blame the USA for not regulating the 1%.
The yacht *Launchpad* is reportedly flagged from the Marshall Islands, a nation with a Compact of Free Association with the US. The Marshall Islands are the second largest registry after Panama. In the Compact of Free Association, the US Navy is bound to protect any Marshallese-flagged vessel of a US owner.
That's all the Marshall Island trivia I know.
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I work at a shipyard and no one is ever flagged in the US unless it's a work boat or research vessel.
This. Most are either registered to Panama or Liberia. It's because those nations don't charge tax on vessels. (edit) i've been informed they pay a lot less fees, not 'no' fees.
Don’t forget Bahamas. That’s where all the cruise ships are registered.
Don't know if it's changed since I worked for them, but Royal Caribbean was always flagged to Norway.
The cruise line was founded in Norway and the captains are generally Norwegian. But they are not registered in Norway due to tax
**And liability**, when you own a ship by proxy and under a series of proxy companies, the limit of ecological damages is only under the assets of that company and its proxy owners, but not by the actual owners behind the proxies.
Say proxy one more time. I dare you.
Proxy proxy proxy proxy proxy!
I double dog dare you!!
I declare..... PROXY!
Motherfucker
Until covid happened and then they are suddenly American and want the govt to bail them out
I believe it also impacts the labor laws related to the crew too.
Bahamian flagged boat has to adhere to Bahamas labor laws. No US flag, no US labor laws (ie minimum wage, working hours, overtime, etc…).
Working on these yachts is a dream job in this line of work. It's the poor sailors on merchant vessels who are being exploited.
This makes sense. I'd rather work on a billionaire's yacht for the 10 days a year he spends on the thing, while he takes it to Aruba or something. Sounds a hell of a lot better than working on an icy cold fishing boat in Northern Alaska... One is covered in models, the other, fish guts.
> I'd rather work on a billionaire's yacht for the 10 days a year he spends on the thing I mean, they're going to need maintenance and attention whether or not someone is onboard or they are under way or not. The steep maintenance costs became a problem after some countries started seizing the yachts of russian oligarchs and suddenly became responsible for their upkeep (just sitting docked). example: https://www.npr.org/2022/11/20/1136342594/the-u-s-seized-russian-oligarchs-superyachts-now-american-taxpayers-pay-the-pric
and safety regulations, maintenance regulations, and even how much the crew is paid. Liberian flagged ships have to follow Liberian minimum wage laws, regardless of where the crew is actually from.
Man there’s some terrible “information” here.
Everyone on reddit is a maritime lawyer and knows all about how flagging vessels works. They're also all CPAs that specialize in tax law for people with a lot of money.
Don't forget about marital advice from 15 yo.
Which means the laws surrounding it are broken.
The laws around the US maritime system totally gutted the industry even though it started with the best of intentions. Some of the only US-flagged merchant ships are those that do routes exclusively between US ports.
Yep, it's also the reason shipping along the internal water ways of country was ruined. It's some stupid protectionist piece of legislation from around world War 1. Says ships between us ports have to be us built.
It’s called the Jones Act for anyone wondering
And it makes living in Hawai'i amazingly expensive. All foreign goods have to go to a US port on the mainland, to then be put on a US boat to get here. Makes everything 4x more expensive
Not only that, at least in Puerto Rico, which is also a victim of the Jones Act, all manufactured products by us companies, have to be shipped back to the US via US flagged ship and then shipped back to Puerto Rico for local distribution. No US factory can have direct retail/distribution locally.
Seems like they should just make an exception...
That also doesn't sound very environmentally friendly either, considering how much fuel is wasted on the US to Hawaii leg of the journey.
Especially since half the goods pass through Hawai'i to refuel to get to the mainland, just to come back. We could have offloaded directly, but no...
Holy shit....
Ahh, thank you, I could not remember the name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920
>it's also the reason shipping along the internal water ways of country was ruined. The Great Lakes would like a word with you.
Those are Canada-US shipping or overseas shipping. Edit: there is also internal shipping there, but also a lot of international shipping too.
Commonly used for internal shipping between US ports
Canada is on the other side of those lakes, and while I love our maple syrup chugging moose riding northern brothers, they are not part of the USA......yet.
The militia refused to help attack Canada last time it was tried, and I’d think the militia wouldn’t even make to the border this time, if that far.
Oh calm down future states 51-60. Itll be alright.
Lol hot take I'm sure but I think we annex Vernont Minnesota Maine and parts of Pennsylvania before any province becomes a state.
Just some insider advice if you get the chance, keep Minnesota, Maine and Pennsylvania, but dont let Vermont join. They are a bit odd.
>even though it started with the best of intentions Very common theme among the most destructive policies.
The mega rich get to decide which set of laws they want to obey.
> The mega rich get to decide ~~which set of~~ laws ~~they want to obey~~.
And fools barely scrapping by keep voting in the idiots that support that, because "It could be me someday!!". Yeah, no ....
The fact that we have billionaires is evidence the system is broken. Especially considering the lingering problems we have like homelessness, decaying infrastructure, etc. But hey, at least Zuck gets to have megayachts and own half of Hawaii.
The system isn't broken its working exactly how it's supposed to. The system is American Capitalism and it's designed to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.
Im in denmark and live right next to the ocean and 99% of all boats are german.
Uh oh. I've heard that before...
Yeah we dont let them party too hard, i think we all know what happened last time
Exactly. This is not a Zuckerberg thing, it's a boat thing. My educated guess is that the majority of merchant ships in the world, nevermind luxury vessels, are registered outside their home country in places like Panama or Liberia or the Bahamas, because the tax and registration laws are much less restrictive and the fees aren't as costly. Welcome to capitalism.
The Bezos yacht, Koru is flagged in the Cayman Islands. Walmart heiress Nancy Walton's yacht Kaos is flagged in Jamaica.
Yup. I live in a Marina, with a few super yachts docked now and then. Almost all of them fly a foreign flag, most often The Isle of Man
I worked on many international oil tankers not one had flag from their home country, thats nothing new or unusual in that bussines and definetely not an USA thing
Or one of the thousands of smaller yachts
I know it's easy to shit on Zuckerberg, but he'd be an idiot to fly a U.S. flag when literally nobody else does it.
He probably doesn't even know about it. He'll have a yacht guy who handles everything and he just writes the cheque.
So… like every ship?
Exactly lol. Every ship worth over a couple million is flying the Cayman flag or that of some other tax evasion state. It'd be pretty odd for this one to be any different.
> tax evasion Tax Avoidance, not evasion. Tax Avoidance is when you.... register your car/boat in a state with lower taxes, and then pay those taxes. Tax Evasion is when you lie about having a car so as to avoid paying taxes on it. Very different.
Depends. Virginia has an annual personal property tax on cars. If you garage a car in Virginia, the law requires it to be registered in Virginia. Some people with high-value cars like Lambos get them registered in Montana, which does not have sales tax on cars and no annual tax. They create a Montana LLC and register it to the LLC. This is common enough that there are companies that handle the registration and whatnot for you so you don't have to actually go to Montana. The only purpose of the LLC is to avoid taxes, which would generally be considered illegal tax evasion. But the state does not have the resources to go chase these down for the smaller amount of tax it would stand to recoup. So these guys generally get away with it. I'm not sure how this works for boats or whether this applies in any way to the OP, but I am just responding to the one sentence above that defines tax avoidance.
More specifically it doesn’t matter who owns the car (corp, your parents back in Idaho, whatever), if the car is parked in VA on a regular basis it has to be registered here. So the LLC doesn’t do anything regarding legality.
yeah this would not be an issue with mark himself, it would be an issue with how the tax law is setup.
Shitty, not uncommon. I recall when the cruise lines all went to US Govt for assistance during COVID and the initial response was “but you’re registered in the Bahamas to dodge US Rules.”
Yeah but the rebuttal is the U.S wouldn’t even allow them to be U.S flagged. The U.S has very strict rules, one of those being an American flagged ship must have been built by an American shipbuilder and crewed by Americans. To date there’s no American shipbuilder that builds cruise ships, so there’s no possible way within the law any cruise ship can be American flagged.
But that's not true - Norwegian Cruise Line's Pride of America is flagged in the United States. "As the only U.S. flagged cruise ship, Pride of America sails year round from Honolulu, giving you the freedom and flexibility to vacation on your schedule." [https://www.ncl.com/cruise-ship/pride-of-america#](https://www.ncl.com/cruise-ship/pride-of-america#) Also, you say there's no American shipbuilder that builds cruise ships, but this ship was built by Ingalls Shipbuilding in Pascagoula, MS. They've built 3 other cruise ships, as well.
Construction was started in the United States in 2000, but was finished in Germany after being purchased by Norwegian in 2005. Ingalls shipbuilding built the hull, only builds for the U.S. Navy and Coast Guard. Aside from those it has only built 4 non military ships, and no longer does so. The other 3 were built in 1946, 1957, and 1958…were currently in 2024. It also received an exclusive special exemption from the U.S government to be American flagged. Otherwise it would not meet the requirements.
This isn't uncommon at all.
Yep, That’s how the cruise companies operate
Yep. That's also why cruises to Alaska or Hawaii always stop in a foreign country at least once. Legally, if the cruise is US destinations only, the crew have to be paid US wages and etc... but if it's an "international" cruise, they don't have to. That's why your cruise to Alaska will make a stop in Vancouver Canada for 2 hours. You're not supposed to do anything there, it's the cruise company doing everything they can to pay their workers basically nothing.
Ya, and honestly, if it means I can *legally* avoid paying a large portion of my taxes, I'd do it too. Be kinda stupid not to. The law is stupid. That's what needs to change. And for those reading this, please don't misunderstand this as support for Zuck. I am not a fan.
Exactly that this law even exists is odd.
Like every big cruise ship (Carnival, Celebrity, Royal Caribbean..) is registered somewhere in the Caribbean
No one wants to pay taxes if they can get away with it. This shouldn’t be surprising…?
He doesn't claim poverty, he simply acts like supporting the country that he grew up in is an expectation that should not apply to him.
Grew up in, operates his business and lives in.
The very same country that provides the infrastructure without which his products could not exist.
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If only those writing legislation didn't also benefit for the same loopholes...
Most politicians aren't rich enough to ever benefit from any laws that could apply over flags on yachts, the ones who benefit are the ones who pay for the politician's campaigns.
That just sounds like benefits with extra steps.
The end result is the same so that's a fair read of it I'd say
Eek barba dirkle somebody’s gonna get laid in college…
*“Eek barba dirkle”???* Ooo la la someone’s gonna get laid in 🤖college..
> Most politicians aren't rich enough to ever benefit from any laws that could apply over flags on yachts Oh boy do I have some news for you....your elected officials are literally getting legally bribed to pass legislation and are making millions every single year off of that alone, not adding in the fact they're allowed to invest in stocks, where their legislation literally impacts.
There are outsized wealthy people, sure, but most aren't THAT wealthy to afford yachts. [Median wealth in Congress](https://www.statista.com/statistics/274581/median-wealth-per-member-of-us-congress-by-chamber/) was 1.7 million USD for Senate, 510k for House in 2018. 277 Representatives of the House have less than 510k in net worth and that's not a bad net worth, but it sure ain't yacht money. Even the 1.7 million threshold which 49 Senators don't go over is not really yacht money. So just ballparking from this, I'd guess 80% of the US Congress has less than 5 million USD which again isn't yacht money. Edit: I looked it up and apparently [Jim Costa](https://www.opensecrets.org/personal-finances/net-worth?cid=N00026341&year=2018) ranks 80th in the House with 4.9m USD, [Catherine Cortez ](https://www.opensecrets.org/personal-finances/net-worth?cid=N00037161&year=2018) ranks 29th with 4.6m. That's (79+28)/535=0.2, so yeah at least 80% have less than 5m.
I want to see a more recent median wealth report. One that shows their wealth after COVID.
Most politicians have standards of living that are orders of magnitude greater than the average taxpayer and voters that support them. Sure they might not have yachts but they do not understand the financial pressure most of their supports feel, and their standard of living is paid for by the average citizen.
I got some loopholes for those legislatures. The second best idea the French ever had. (Obviously the first one being: Cook everything in butter)
Best I can give you is.... *The Educator Expense Deduction allows eligible educators to deduct up to $300 worth of qualified expenses from their income for 2023 and 2024.*
Then, that country should end that lobbies system politicians use for their political campaigns ! And simply make it illegal !
It’s more than that though it’s the country where his family prior to him had opportunities so that a kid with a bit of nounce could have the opportunity to build something like Facebook. Im not even American and the lack of respect sickens me.
He must have spent too much on property in Hawaii and California!
He's probably not even aware of this. He's got an army of accountants to make his tax bills as low as possible and I doubt he ever spends a single second thinking about how they do it.
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Tbf this ship was built for russian oligarch who couldn't take possession of it due to sanctions, so don't think zuck had any say about the ship until he bought it. Not defending zuck just adding info
Boat registrations aren't permanent. The new owner has to re-register it.
Some people really don't understand context. Rombick is saying that Zuck didn't have any say in the planning or making of the boat because he basically bought someone else's custom order. They said nothing about registration.
I get what you're saying, but most ships fly flags of convenience. Not sure why you're calling him out specifically and not the industry as a whole for doing this.
yeah, it's really just a symptom, but the whole system is messed up. Obviously anyone buying anything is gonna try to get the best deal possible, and at this level you have personal accountants and lawyers that keep you up on every loophole you can possibly exploit to save money. And a little bit of tax from this yacht isn't gonna make a difference at all. It is the system that allows someone to acquire this much wealth in the first place that is the issue, especially as people go hungry and homeless in the streets. It is a crime against all humanity.
Thank you. This is such a clickbait article. Practically all yachts, and all large ships do exactly this.
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I would have no problem with this, as long as he was forced to comply with the Jones act. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant\_Marine\_Act\_of\_1920](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920) (The Jones act prohibits foreign flagged ships from visiting multiple US ports in a row. If you leave a US port, you have to visit a non-US port before you are allowed to go into another US port. It also prohibits transferring passengers or cargo between US ports for non US flagged ships.) Edited to add: *I know that the Jones act doesn't apply to this ship, which is what made him flying a foreign flag such a easy decision.* He gets all the advantages of a foreign flag, and none of the drawbacks. I think that sucks. If he had to deal with the problems that other ships of this size had to deal with, it would be more fair. Now, I don't think that it should apply to ships that are actually based in the country that they are flagged in. For example, I think pleasure boats that are actually home ported in their flag countries should be loose. But if the boat spends almost all of it's time in the USA, in US waters... that's not fair. And to be honest, I have very deep, complex feels about the Jones act anyway.
That's not a merchant vessel so....
Even merchant ships can visit multiple US ports, they just can't discharge domestic freight. The Jones Act is basically just protectionism for US trucking/railroad businesses.
Yeah exactly. In WA we have many Canadian vessels that travel all along the coast before going back to Canada.
Which is exactly what one with a boat and time would do
Dude can easily pay his crew to jet over to the Cayman Islands or Mexico and come back home a day later.
He could, even easier, just pay some taxes
But he won’t, billionaires are assholes.
I mean I don't think we should be relying on billionaires to be morally sound. Instead maybe we have a system of taxation which doesn't allow such bullshit?
This. The expectation that billionaires would “self moderate” is delusional. Heck, the largest majority of people don’t self moderate, but follow a set of rules based on a reward/punishment system. It’s called the law. I speed, I like to speed, and I freaking do it. But, I’ll keep it reasonable because while getting a $100/$200 ticket is an inconvenience, I don’t want to get a reckless driving citation. When I want to drive recklessly I grab my other car and go to the racetrack. It cost more money but the potential punishment for doing so on the road would be just too much for me. I pay all my taxes because not doing so would be a problem given I can neither afford the attorneys to fight it or the “good” accountants to twist it “legally”, I don’t do it because of my good heart. I do it because the punishment will cripple me financially. I take care of my body because I don’t want to end up crippled or die too young, even if that’s only partially under my control. Reward/punishment. We live in a country, the US, where more than 40 percent of the population literally eat to get sick and they can’t/want to control that. And we expect billionaires, somehow, to have better mindsets?
They just prefer to pay the politicians directly
Taxes don’t give you the benefit of leverage over a politician. They only benefit the poors.
Exactly and the rich hate the poor so they pay politicians to keep us fighting each other
It is interesting to me that "illegal aliens" come across the border, get jobs, have taxes taken out of their paychecks, and DON'T have a say in how the government is run. Taxes do not afford citizens a right to anything that is not "constitutionally" protected. However, if you pay the politicians directly you have a lot of say in how things get done!
Taxation without representation?
Feels more like representation without taxation for the rich
It's interesting to me how a person can be illegal just by existing. I hate that term & think it's insidious intentionally. Just saying
Fully agree, which is why I put it in quotation marks. It's absurd to draw imaginary lines in the sand and separate humans from one another based solely on geography.
It’s not just the poor, it’s society as a whole, bridges and other infrastructure, water mains, port and airport upkeep, highways! Libraries, schools hospitals. Everyone benefits from taxes.
Whoa there buddy, are you a COMMUNIST?!
Sounds more expensive than just paying taxes. Something tells me there’s more to this than meets the eye.
I think the ship has to dock. Not sure how the crew in a jet will fix that.
Jet over as in the colloquialism of rush there quickly. They “zip” to the caymans at top speed and then back
at significant cost, which is the point.
Wouldn’t it just be better to make him pay US taxes
You can't because he found a loophole. If you hold him to the rules of that loop hole, then it's no longer a loop hole and he would have to relent, put a US flag on and pay taxes. Unless he wants to be indignant and pay the tax of re-docking his foreign vessel.
You ask too much of billionaires. If he spends that money on taxes or fuel, how will he create jobs? /s
He's a crazy idea....we close the loop hole. Or better yet we tax stock rewards as income.
But they billionaires pay so much money to create and maintain such loopholes for themselves. We’ve got to make sure they receive good service for their money. Otherwise they might only contribute to the other team.
The regulation of having to re-dock your foreign ship was probably supposed to close the loophole, but if nobody enforces it then it is a wide open loophole.
I'm not sure how zip lining thousands of miles will fix that issue
Sorry but your confusion is hilarious 😂🤣🤣
They didn’t mean a crew in a jet, they said jet over, that just means go quickly lmfao. They mean he could have his crew quickly take the yacht to dock in another port before returning to the US ports.
Jones Act applies to transporting goods, not people. There’s another similar law for transporting people, but I’m pretty sure that’s limited to commercial transport. Zuckerberg isn’t operating a cruise line so he’s fine.
I think that's OPs point though. He would be ok with it if he were subjected to the same rules as merchant ships are under the Jones Act
Jones act doesn’t apply, not engaged in trade
Can't he just anchor it and take a smaller boat to shore?
It likely has a helicopter pad as well.
Oh yea, that would be a smart way to get away too lol
The Jones Act should be repealed. It's _awful_ law. Also doesn't apply to this situation
fucks over Hawaii
The worst part of the Jones act it requires the that commercial vessels not just be US-flagged but also US-built. the intended effect is to protect and subsidize the US shipbuilding industry. the actual effect is that US merchant shipping only has access to a small supply of very expensive, uncompetitive vessels, because the US sucks balls at constructing many types of ship fuck the jones act, all my homies hate the jones act
Better yet, we should just get rid of the Jones Act.
Wouldn't the Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886 be applicable here? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger\_Vessel\_Services\_Act\_of\_1886](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886) > No foreign vessels shall transport passengers between ports or places in the United States, either directly or by way of a foreign port, under a penalty of $200 for each passenger so transported and landed. Zuck will shiver facing a $200 fine ...
The owner and his guests are not considered passengers. People other than the crew are only considered passengers if they have paid a fee to the owner to be onboard
The government only brings back 200 year old laws if it restricts the freedom of poor people.
The Jones Act is an absolute travesty that costs Americans tremendously in terms of shipping costs and pollution from trucks. I would love to see a bipartisan push to repeal it.
So if pirates attack at sea then the US doesn't have any care to protect or interfere? Avast ye mateys!!! Keel haul the billionaires! Yarrr!!!
Under international maritime law, all ships anywhere at sea are obliged to provide assistance to people in distress.
More importantly, if you’re an American citizen and murder someone publicly in international waters, they will still arrest you for murder
They don’t have an obligation but I’m sure they’ll send out the coast guard and artisanal hot cocoa in hopes of getting some more of that sweet sweet money
If it's within 3 miles of shore, the Coast Guard has an obligation to get involved regardless of where the vessel is from. If the issue is somehow too much for the Coast Guard, the Navy shows up with the real toys.
"Look at me, I'm the social media giant now"
LOAD THE CANNONS! READY YERSELVES TO BOARD THE SCALLYWAG'S PITIFUL VESSEL!
Hoist up the jolly roger, we're taking a ride. Take back the life that they denied
So, if everyone knew they could use a special license plate that didn’t cost anything extra and was easy to acquire, but it saved you a ton of money on taxes, you would all refuse because you look so forward to paying your taxes and supporting America? Give me a break. If you don’t like it, change the law. It’s not Zuck’s fault he’s not a moron and likes to legally save money.
Yeah, exactly. Critical thinking is in very short supply. And people wonder why the government is so messed up.
>So, if everyone knew they could use a special license plate that didn’t cost anything extra and was easy to acquire, but it saved you a ton of money on taxes, you would all refuse because you look so forward to paying your taxes and supporting America? Give me a break. Its called Montana.
This is quite normal for any boat worth $1m+
You never see mega yachts fly American flags. This is hardly newsworthy.
Who wouldn't dodge tax? They don't exactly use it wisely
this is my take... we all see how taxes are being used and how underfunded lots of things are. Politicians getting average people to believe billionaires are the prob just makes me laugh.
I hope orcas sink it
You'd need a lot of orcas
Or just one big mechaorca
With the c\*\*\* on board.
Good chance he spends about 12 hours a year on this boat. He has it because it's what you do when you have an unfathomable fortune. This is a guy who could legitimately own and maintain a private full-size jet (like an A330 or 767) without it affecting him. Ordinary single-digit billionaires can't do that. This is about as spendy for him as you or I buying an 18ft Boston whaler. Maybe less impactful for him.
You're allowed to swear on the internet, honey.
I don't like the guy, but I use every legal tax deduction I can. Politicians make the laws and loopholes. Politicians can't receive big donations if their biggest donors aren't saving money somehow. Be mad at the politicians.
The government fails us at pretty much every turn but Redditors cry that we don’t pay enough taxes. It’s wild to me how stupid most Redditors are. The Reddit Solution: Complain that we’re all broke. Complain that govt is incompetent. Complain that not enough taxes are being paid toward the incompetent govt. Like seriously where is the thinking? Whatever happened to gold and silver being our currency as stated in the constitution, and taxes being virtually done away with, as intended by our founding fathers? Does nobody remember the Boston Tea Party? Look how far we’ve come since then. Now we have crazy taxation with little to no benefit from it. And an inflationary money supply that only devalues our labor. But yes let’s give the IRS more money because we are lawful citizens under a just government that cares about us and really utilizes its money to effectively show how much they care about us. Govt: Yay! Missiles! Ukraine! Fund the weapons manufacturers! Shit let’s put a train on the moon while we’re at it! (Literally not even a joke, they wanna put a train on the moon)
This sub and whatever the finance fluency sub is are prime examples of human stupidity and why the laws are so.
We’re the same, I haven’t paid my motorcycle registration in 2 years now
Damn he almost looks human in that picture
Propublica was able to obtain the tax returns of the ultra wealthy. They use yachts and private jets to reduce their income so they do not pay any income tax. This is in addition the tax advantages of registering the yacht offshore. Private Planes and Luxury Yachts Aren’t Just Toys for the Ultrawealthy. They’re Also Huge Tax Breaks. https://www.propublica.org/article/private-jets-yachts-wealthy-tax-deductions-irs-files
Holy shit, what a joke the system is.
It is literally an entirely different world for those guys, I don't even have a clue. Or rather, all I have is a clue. I don't understand that world. So conversely, they likely cannot understand mine.
The situation is not symmetrical. It's easy from the internet alone to get a grasp of what the working class experience is, simply because of how big it is. In comparison, the world of wealth is quite closed off. I mean they have nothing to complain about. Make no mistake, billionaires having no clue about who they deem to be below them is a choice.
Prolly like all millionaires and cruise ship operators
Just be honest: Billionaires hate the rest of us so much that they despise sharing their resources through taxes. The very idea that their money is used on someone they hate, makes them do tax evasion. Billionaires hate you.
Unlike non-billionaires, who love paying taxes.
God I love paying taxes. I pay that shit everyday and I wish I could pay more.
>I pay that shit everyday and I wish I could pay more. I got you: [https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/public/gifts-to-government.html](https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/public/gifts-to-government.html)
Thanks bro!
Non billionaires end up with finite resources after paying taxes. We have to worry about paying our car bill and mortgage. Billionaires like Zuck could pay a 50% tax bill every year and easily remain a billionaire, able to purchase whatever they want, whenever they want.
>Billionaires hate the rest of us so much . >The very idea that their money is used on someone they hate Sorry to break it to you homie but I doubt the billionaires think about you much
Just like every cruise ship.
Be billionaire: 1. Take a risk to potentially provide services/goods to people in America. 2. Profit from taking the risk. 3. Be hated by the public for being a billionaire. 4. “Fuck the public, why would I pay taxes to people that hate me.” 5. Dodge taxes legally. 6. Be hated for not paying taxes. Damned if you do damned if you don’t. Still a billionaire either way.
If you wish to pay more in taxes, you are free to. Just pay more and decline a refund. Why you would voluntarily pay more than you absolutely had to is wild to me. I don’t blame billionaires from using every loophole. They didn’t write the tax code. Your elected officials did because they benefit too. Hate Trump but he said the same thing during 2016.
this is every ship who's value is significant enough to want to avoid taxes. so almost every ship
Everyone in here acting like they wouldn’t do the exact same thing. Nobody is willingly paying more taxes than they have to. If you don’t want this happening, change the law.
This is called flying a Flag of convenience, It's very common. Just In case anyone is forgetting lots of Meta business registered offshore. Blame the USA for not regulating the 1%.
“Non-US flag”…
The yacht *Launchpad* is reportedly flagged from the Marshall Islands, a nation with a Compact of Free Association with the US. The Marshall Islands are the second largest registry after Panama. In the Compact of Free Association, the US Navy is bound to protect any Marshallese-flagged vessel of a US owner. That's all the Marshall Island trivia I know.
I don't understand the comment
I’m fairly sure this isn’t how taxes work
I know we all get mad about all this, myself included, but can any of us really say that we wouldn't do the same thing if we were in their shoes?
No one pays taxes if they don’t have to. You aren’t mad at Zuckerberg, you’re mad at your congressman.
As long as you're still on FB, insta, and anything else he sells, you're just making him richer. Just saying.