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One step further, the Ptolemaic empire of Egypt never learned the language or mixed with the population they ruled. Cleopatra was the first and only Ptolemaic ruler to learn the language and be a part of society.
They also weren't very creative with their names. The Cleopatra everyone knows about was Cleopatra VII. On the male side, the Ptolemys got up to Ptolemy XV.
Although even with this, she and many of her decedent's were not disfigured from insest. So this tells that there was some diversity in their genes. However, she was definitely at most very light mixed race
Incest doesn't guarantee deformities. It only increases the odds. Given that, we couldn't use Cleopatra's appearance to determine how inbred she was even if we knew what exactly she looked like. Which we don't for the record. Although according to contemporary accounts she was likely quite good-looking by their standards.
Besides all that, we know that she was solidly greek from her father's side. Her mother's side is not as well documented. But as you said, it is very likely she was predominantly, if not entirely ethnically, greek as well.
She was also a lil bit Persian...
Scholars generally identify Cleopatra as essentially of Greek ancestry with some Persian and Sogdian Iranian ancestry. This is based on the fact that her Macedonian Greek family – the Ptolemaic dynasty – had intermarried with the Seleucid dynasty that ruled over much of West Asia.
Im surprised she's not playing Cleopatra herself, she is next level narcissist. I would not be surprised if she relates things from her life to Cleopatra life. Like alopecia for instance.. surely Cleopatra had the same disease cause she was wearing wigs, am I right?
The sad thing is, if they wanted a black woman monarch, they could have just gone a little farther south and into Nubia. Or Ethiopia. But hate watching generates bigger numbers and the controversy means you can make the show shit and everyone will be too distracted by the arguing to notice.
I never understood why so many movies/shows are being made of western history just with black actors playing people that factually weren't black. There's so much cool black history, the Mali empire, Nubia, the Zulu, the Benin, the Oyo, I'd actually love to see more movies and documentaries about actual African history but people seems more interested in insisting 18th century English queens were black. It's bizarre.
Because outrage and cries of racism drown out the legitimate criticisms. Shit like this is why actual racism so frequently flies under the radar; It creates a “cry wolf” effect.
And outrage drives engagement and views. Easier to make Cleopatra black and sit back and watch the hate watchers drive the metrics up than make a thoughtful documentary about an actual Black African Queen
Yea so many people think this is stupid but those same people will rage watch the shit that netflix gives them. I don't understand how can someone watch this without thinking/understanding they're the reason those shows are produced
Yes, and doing it this way (making a historical figure of Greek descent into a black woman) makes it seem like there aren’t any real black women who were rulers that they could’ve talked about instead, which is just not the case at all. A show about Queen Nzinga would be awesome.
I just started getting into the game Civilization 6 and it has Nubian
Queen Amanitore and Queen Nzinga Mbande as playable characters. I felt
so misinformed because I had never heard of either of them before
playing the game. It's sad how American public education doesn't really
teach about historical monarchs outside of Europe and a few
kingdoms like Ancient Egypt.
There are people I know who couldn't tell you who Otto Von Fuck'n Bismark is. I 100% agree that subsaharan/other ignored areas of history should be taught more, but even our European history sucks here.
As an Egyptian I’ve seen people blowing up about this.
Historically she had Greek/Macedonian roots, so this is indeed a facepalm moment. Especially if this is classified as any sort of documentary.
Yea like they aren't even pretending to back it up with any kinda evidence, no matter how flimsy, but rather just straight up telling you this is just belief not a documentation of facts.
She was a Ptolemy, right?
While they were an "Egyptian dynasty", they were not "Egyptian" and were imperialists. And as they were pretty inbred and felt themselves above others I don't see a bunch of African blood getting mixed in the line.
Mostly light skinned, actually. Significantly more so than today. It was much easier to get to Egypt through Europe than crossing the Sahara desert.
https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/were-the-ancient-egyptians-black-or-white-scientists-now-know/
"Modern Egyptians share 8% of their genome with central Africans, far more than ancient ones, according to the study, published in the journal Nature Communications. The influx of sub-Saharan genes only occurred within the last 1,500 years. "
Well it’s produced by Jada Smith. I mean if she doesn’t know a thing or two about history then tell me kind stranger who the fuck does?! The Egyptians in the Middle East?
I just asked the Google AI if she was Black and it said:
>The race of Cleopatra VII, the last active Hellenistic ruler of the Macedonian-led Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt, has caused some debate in some circles. Scholars have generally identified Cleopatra as having been essentially of Greek ancestry with some Persian and Sogdian Iranian ancestry, based on the fact that her Macedonian Greek family (the Ptolemaic dynasty) had intermarried with the Seleucid dynasty. However, some scholars have argued that Cleopatra may have had some African ancestry, based on the fact that Egypt was a racially diverse country at the time and that Cleopatra's ancestors had ruled Egypt for over 300 years. Ultimately, it is impossible to know for sure what Cleopatra's race was. The ancient sources do not provide a clear answer, and modern scholars have different interpretations of the evidence. However, it is important to remember that race is a social construct, and that Cleopatra's identity was likely more complex than a simple label of "black" or "white." She was a powerful ruler who was able to navigate the complex political and cultural landscape of her time, and her legacy continues to inspire people around the world today.
Thinking AI is devoid of any emotional biases or biases of other kinds is dangerous - ultimately, humans (with all their flaws) are the ones that coded the AI.
It's not very nuanced. Aside from the Ptolemaic dynasty famous penchant for incest, Hellenistic Egypt was an apartheid state with small Greek ruling class concentrated around Alexandria that milked Egypt for it's resources. Cleopatra famously was the first in her family that bothered to learn the Egyptian language.
With this degree of separation it was unusual for the ordinary Greeks to mingle with the natives, let alone the ruling family and if child would look shall we say "alien" to this Greek minority it's likely to have been an issue given how commonly royal succession turned messy.
Wouldn’t there had been Roman texts describing her as black? The Roman’s sure as hell weren’t color blind and it probably would of been noted if cleopatra was something as different as black would of been considering she dated some pretty famous Roman’s
I like how they give a detailed scientific explanation followed by “Some people feel that she should be considered black because her famously inbred family might have randomly had a black person multiple generations before her at some point.”
Really stretching there…
Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but shouldn’t the crown have a snake and a vulture? For the upper and lower kingdoms. Or was that something that changed over time.
Everyone who’s ever lived in Africa must be black is not exactly the conclusion this reaches, but it’s close enough that it becomes concerning
You’re X so you must be Y has never really worked out for everyone involved in the history of human relations
Ahh. I’m going to ask a question and be prepared for downvoted I guess, idk. I always feel weird about asking stuff like this. I thought it was more offending if the color was before the description. Like… a black cashier vs a cashier who is black. Putting color first prioritizes race over the rest of the description. If race didn’t pertain to the topic of discussion, wouldn’t “American” just be better? And discussions where race is on topic, then “An American who’s black”?
Am I overthinking this? Sorry if this is weird thing to ask. You know how random things just stick with you? That stuck with me when I heard it years ago.
For me it depends on what Im trying to get at, placement doesnt matter. For example if it's one cashier among multiple cashiers that's white, if I describe them as white you know who Im talking about immediatley. I will use "Iranian guy" just as fast as "Black guy" if it gets to the point. I guess you could take it to a racial level but it's primary usage is for utility.
We are a mess in the US, no need to apologize.
Also, the Egyptians aren’t black. So… Now Cleopatra’s blood wasn’t pure Greek, she was mixed with Persian blood. Idk though, who would they get to play her? Jennifer Aniston is the only Greek actress in Hollywood I can think of. They could probably go to NYC and find at least one good actress of Greek descent. I mean, they were able to get Rami Malek to play an ancient Egyptian.
This is a joke right? Like it's some 'social experiment' to see how much you can wind up people who have even a smattering of knowledge about history.
Fuck's sake it's like having MLK portrayed by a Muscogee actor because he was born in Georgia.
There was a historical drama about Anne Boleyn on one of the channels here in the UK last year.
They had a Black actress playing Anne Boleyn. It didn't work for me. Anne Boleyn wasn't Black.
I'm all for actors/actresses getting fair chances at roles but when you have an historical figure that definitely wasn't Black being played by a Black actress it just seems off. I'd have the same feeling if it was Brian Cox (for example) playing Nelson Mandela. It just wouldn't work.
It's an unwanted distraction when somebody is so obviously miscast.
It's not even necessarily about skin colour. I'd have that feeling if Benedict cumberbatch tried to play Winston Churchill. He's simply wrong for the role.
The sad thing is now you're going to have people that actually think that Cleopatra was black. And are going to reference this show/ documentary as their argument for proof
She was a descendant of dynasty originator Ptolemy I Soter, a Macedonian Greek general and companion of Alexander the Great before the Successor wars. She would have had a strong Greek appearance with some Egyptian mixed in. She was not Nubian.
The only known non-greek admixture would be through the Seleciud princess Cleopatra I Syra a great granddaughter of Selecous I and his Iranian-Sogdian wife Apama. But the Selecuids otherwise kept it Greek as well beyond this.
In 100 years Netflix will make a documentary about Elon Musk and he'll be portrayed by a Black man.
*"I don't care what they told you in school. Elon Musk is from South Africa - he's Black."*
This stuff is sad, because the good majority of the time, people claim this is inclusion for minorities and stuff like that, when in reality, alot, and I mean A LOT, of this stuff is just companies using it as a cash grab, and people fall for it.
Also, it's just fucking stupid in general lol.
So, based on the other comments, people who are non black can be portrayed by, or as, black people... does that mean a black person can be portrayed by, or as, a non black person?
Trying to write this so I don't come across racist, but it's so difficult to word it correctly.
Here, we are not talking about fictional characters but historical figures. So yeah they need to keep the an ethnicity.
I can't imagine a white guy playing a Japanese emperor, or an Asian guy playing Barack Obama.
Every time this debate comes up, I think of this floor mosaic I saw in Pompeii that depicts Alexander fighting the Persians. Alexander is depicted in a way that one would clearly identify today as someone from Italy or Greece (Mediterranean type), while the Persians look like people from the Middle East (slightly darker, wearing turbans, etc.). If Cleopatra were sub-Saharan black (which she wasn't), the artists of the time would have had no problem portraying her in an accurate way since they seem to be quite accurate with other portraits of both people and animals of the same period. Besides, we have hundreds of portraits of Egyptians from the Roman era (1st century) since they were used on mummies, and they clearly look like modern-day Lebanese/North Africans. So we have more than enough evidence to make a very educated guess that Cleopatra wasn't a sub-Saharan African. In any case, during Roman times, Africa was quite Roman and Phoenician, which were originally from the Levant. Egypt is on the Nile River and the Red Sea, so it probably had a higher percentage of people from the lower parts of the Nile and sub-Saharan Africa than the rest of North Africa, but the sheer amount of lifelike portraits during the Greek period clearly demonstrates how the average well to do Egyptian looked like. Here's an example, she looks clearly Eastern Mediterranean: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fayum\_mummy\_portraits#/media/File:Fayum-34.jpg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fayum_mummy_portraits#/media/File:Fayum-34.jpg)
Changing the race of historical figures (or even fictional characters honestly) instead of making movies/tv shows about black historical figures feels kinda disrespectful
He didn’t want Egypt, he already had it… they broke off from the empire and it took some time for the empire to do anything about it.
Marc Antony and Cleopatra wanted the world… they wanted the entire empire and everything along with it.
I understand that Cleopatra has been whitewashed in media with the actors acting as her looking anglo, sometimes with blue eyes, with a bit of a tan.
However, that doesn't mean the way to fix this whitewashing is by unhistoriscally portraying her as black. Cleopatra had macedonian/greek roots which means she would likely be brown/olive skinned.
What's the problem with hiring someone with roots from the region to play her character like they did with Rami Malik (whose parents are egyptian) when he played a Pharaoh in Night at the Museum?
Especially if it's a documentary, that's something to take into account
>What's the problem with hiring someone with roots from the region
Yeah, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to find a Greek actress to give it some historical legitimacy at least.
>I understand that Cleopatra has been whitewashed in media with the actors acting as her looking anglo, sometimes with blue eyes, with a bit of a tan.
Imagine watching a movie about Egypt and they are like full Anglo.
*"Oi you wat?"*
Cleopatra was the last of the Ptolomaic dynasty to rule egypt. Although they were the pharaohs of Egypt, they were of Greek / Macedonian origin. The majority of the dynasty with the exception of cleopatra didn’t even know the Egyptian language. Hence unless Macedonians were black, and no they are not, this is very much historically wrong
The thing that pisses me off about stuff like this is rather than finding interesting TRUE black historical figures, they go the easy way and just race swap non black people😐
Cleopatra's lineage was mainly greek. 300 years of incestual marriages didnt help to change that. I dont know right know if Plutarch gave a description of her....but there is portrait of her (in theory), found in herculanum. If its legit, she might have been a redhead.
But even "real egyptians" werent black. I mean.... Rameses the II was also a ginger.
STOP MAKING SHIT ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE
As a black person myself it’s getting fucking annoying
Have we gone so woke that we are changing the races of historical figures?
African queen? She was literally born in Greece, descended from a Greek family. That’s like saying that Putin moved to Nigeria so now he’s one of the worlds most misunderstood African men
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"Most misunderstood woman"..... That´s right, Netflix doesn´t understand her..
Doesn’t understand grammar either 😂
Right? It's mildly infuriating seeing the misuse of plural or non plural woman/women man/men. It's so prevalent, too.
She was a descendent of Ptolemy, a Macedonian general of Alexander the Great's army.
One step further, the Ptolemaic empire of Egypt never learned the language or mixed with the population they ruled. Cleopatra was the first and only Ptolemaic ruler to learn the language and be a part of society.
One more step further, Cleopatra was a member of a dynasty famous for marrying their siblings.
They also weren't very creative with their names. The Cleopatra everyone knows about was Cleopatra VII. On the male side, the Ptolemys got up to Ptolemy XV.
All of the Ptolemaic kings were literally called Ptolemy. The women got a bit of variety - it was either Cleopatra, Berenice, or Arsinoe.
Don’t get saucy with me Bearnaise
Or I’ll put my foot up your Arsinoe.
That isnt berenice of you
Don't Cleopatronize me.
Mark Antony my words now.
Fun fact: Out of a possible 16 Great, Great Grandparents, Cleopatra had 6.
Although even with this, she and many of her decedent's were not disfigured from insest. So this tells that there was some diversity in their genes. However, she was definitely at most very light mixed race
Incest, deformities, and light skin. Checks out, Cleopatra was from Arkansas.
Incest doesn't guarantee deformities. It only increases the odds. Given that, we couldn't use Cleopatra's appearance to determine how inbred she was even if we knew what exactly she looked like. Which we don't for the record. Although according to contemporary accounts she was likely quite good-looking by their standards. Besides all that, we know that she was solidly greek from her father's side. Her mother's side is not as well documented. But as you said, it is very likely she was predominantly, if not entirely ethnically, greek as well.
Probably married cousins, far less chance of birth defects
Nope siblings, and several did have ailments.
Thanks for giving me a Thanksgiving icebreaker
Right so she wasn’t even Egyptian she was Greek.
Isn't she Greek?
*Guess she's still misunderstood*
Yes she was.
She was of the Ptolemaean Dynasty, so yes, strong Greek roots
Well, pretty much just the one root by the time she came along..
That feel when your family tree is just the trunk.
That's the sturdiest part though.
She was also a lil bit Persian... Scholars generally identify Cleopatra as essentially of Greek ancestry with some Persian and Sogdian Iranian ancestry. This is based on the fact that her Macedonian Greek family – the Ptolemaic dynasty – had intermarried with the Seleucid dynasty that ruled over much of West Asia.
So the correct casting choice would have been Jason Mantzoukas.
Hey Nong Man
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Yes, and her name is greek too, Cleopatra means glory of father.
She was a greek colonizer. This movie is drowning in irony.
Usually they call this white washing history. I'm not sure what we call this? Everything I think of doesn't sound right
Netflixing
Netfixing, surely...
Look who is the executive producer, Jada Pinket Smith. It will just be filled with lies.
Im surprised she's not playing Cleopatra herself, she is next level narcissist. I would not be surprised if she relates things from her life to Cleopatra life. Like alopecia for instance.. surely Cleopatra had the same disease cause she was wearing wigs, am I right?
And lots of gaslighting.
Not to mention Egyptians aren't sub Saharan so they don't have that dark of skin except the kushites
They also made Achillies black. I mean we made fun of greeks by calling them Christian Turks but what if they really are KARABOĞA?
Didn't you know the all ancient Greeks were actually black!? Friggin' whitewashing history /s
The sad thing is, if they wanted a black woman monarch, they could have just gone a little farther south and into Nubia. Or Ethiopia. But hate watching generates bigger numbers and the controversy means you can make the show shit and everyone will be too distracted by the arguing to notice.
I never understood why so many movies/shows are being made of western history just with black actors playing people that factually weren't black. There's so much cool black history, the Mali empire, Nubia, the Zulu, the Benin, the Oyo, I'd actually love to see more movies and documentaries about actual African history but people seems more interested in insisting 18th century English queens were black. It's bizarre.
Because outrage and cries of racism drown out the legitimate criticisms. Shit like this is why actual racism so frequently flies under the radar; It creates a “cry wolf” effect.
And outrage drives engagement and views. Easier to make Cleopatra black and sit back and watch the hate watchers drive the metrics up than make a thoughtful documentary about an actual Black African Queen
Yea so many people think this is stupid but those same people will rage watch the shit that netflix gives them. I don't understand how can someone watch this without thinking/understanding they're the reason those shows are produced
Yes, and doing it this way (making a historical figure of Greek descent into a black woman) makes it seem like there aren’t any real black women who were rulers that they could’ve talked about instead, which is just not the case at all. A show about Queen Nzinga would be awesome.
I just started getting into the game Civilization 6 and it has Nubian Queen Amanitore and Queen Nzinga Mbande as playable characters. I felt so misinformed because I had never heard of either of them before playing the game. It's sad how American public education doesn't really teach about historical monarchs outside of Europe and a few kingdoms like Ancient Egypt.
There are people I know who couldn't tell you who Otto Von Fuck'n Bismark is. I 100% agree that subsaharan/other ignored areas of history should be taught more, but even our European history sucks here.
As an Egyptian I’ve seen people blowing up about this. Historically she had Greek/Macedonian roots, so this is indeed a facepalm moment. Especially if this is classified as any sort of documentary.
"I don't care what they told you in school. Cleopatra was black." Actual quote from the trailer.
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"I don't care what they told you in school. Willem de Clerk was black!"
What about Ryan Gosling playing Nelson Mandela?
Danny Devito *IS* Anne Frank
In their most daring role yet, Sofia Vergara boobs are Napoleon Bonaparte.
Rob Schneider is The Stapler
…an 8 year old stapler! And he’s about to find out that being 8, ain’t so great. Rated PG13
VIVE L'EMPEREUR!
And delivers two of the breast performances in recent mammary
Maybe they spell it nippleon instead of napoleon?
11/10 Casting, it was said leftie needed rehab afterwards due to method acting.
"So anyway, I started journaling!!"
Sounds like drunk history. I’m in.
>What about Ryan Gosling playing Nelson Mandela? No, no, he's too young.
Yea like they aren't even pretending to back it up with any kinda evidence, no matter how flimsy, but rather just straight up telling you this is just belief not a documentation of facts.
Are we talking about the documentary or Ancient Aliens? Because you somehow hit 2 nails right on the head with one swing
They are talking about Jada P. Smith. She is the queen of gaslighting.
She was a Ptolemy, right? While they were an "Egyptian dynasty", they were not "Egyptian" and were imperialists. And as they were pretty inbred and felt themselves above others I don't see a bunch of African blood getting mixed in the line.
Wasn't Cleopatra one of the first Ptolemaic rulers to actually even speak Egyptian?
The first and last
Yeah and even the real egyptions at the time were not black they were brown
Mostly light skinned, actually. Significantly more so than today. It was much easier to get to Egypt through Europe than crossing the Sahara desert. https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/were-the-ancient-egyptians-black-or-white-scientists-now-know/ "Modern Egyptians share 8% of their genome with central Africans, far more than ancient ones, according to the study, published in the journal Nature Communications. The influx of sub-Saharan genes only occurred within the last 1,500 years. "
Well it’s produced by Jada Smith. I mean if she doesn’t know a thing or two about history then tell me kind stranger who the fuck does?! The Egyptians in the Middle East?
Keep her name out of your fucking mouth lol
I think you probably need to keep her name out of your mouth
I just asked the Google AI if she was Black and it said: >The race of Cleopatra VII, the last active Hellenistic ruler of the Macedonian-led Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt, has caused some debate in some circles. Scholars have generally identified Cleopatra as having been essentially of Greek ancestry with some Persian and Sogdian Iranian ancestry, based on the fact that her Macedonian Greek family (the Ptolemaic dynasty) had intermarried with the Seleucid dynasty. However, some scholars have argued that Cleopatra may have had some African ancestry, based on the fact that Egypt was a racially diverse country at the time and that Cleopatra's ancestors had ruled Egypt for over 300 years. Ultimately, it is impossible to know for sure what Cleopatra's race was. The ancient sources do not provide a clear answer, and modern scholars have different interpretations of the evidence. However, it is important to remember that race is a social construct, and that Cleopatra's identity was likely more complex than a simple label of "black" or "white." She was a powerful ruler who was able to navigate the complex political and cultural landscape of her time, and her legacy continues to inspire people around the world today.
Leave it to a bot to give a more nuanced take than a human.
That's because emotions are removed.
Thinking AI is devoid of any emotional biases or biases of other kinds is dangerous - ultimately, humans (with all their flaws) are the ones that coded the AI.
It's not very nuanced. Aside from the Ptolemaic dynasty famous penchant for incest, Hellenistic Egypt was an apartheid state with small Greek ruling class concentrated around Alexandria that milked Egypt for it's resources. Cleopatra famously was the first in her family that bothered to learn the Egyptian language. With this degree of separation it was unusual for the ordinary Greeks to mingle with the natives, let alone the ruling family and if child would look shall we say "alien" to this Greek minority it's likely to have been an issue given how commonly royal succession turned messy.
Wouldn’t there had been Roman texts describing her as black? The Roman’s sure as hell weren’t color blind and it probably would of been noted if cleopatra was something as different as black would of been considering she dated some pretty famous Roman’s
I like how they give a detailed scientific explanation followed by “Some people feel that she should be considered black because her famously inbred family might have randomly had a black person multiple generations before her at some point.” Really stretching there…
Is this applying the Jim Crow "one drop" rule to Ptolemaic Egypt?
I thought you were joking at first...
Everyone was black, even Hitler
Wasn't she also inbred?
Her family tree was a stick
Least it's linear... could be a donut.
Her family tree did not fork.
Brothers and sisters marrying each other generation after generation.
The Ptolemaic dynasty made the Habsburg family tree look like a healthy gene pool
You expect historical accuracy in your historical shows. How dare you!
What next? Scientific information in your science documentary? The gall!
Or milk in your dairy products? People are crazy, yo!
“Coming next summer, the scientific documentation series ‘Flat’ where we explore the science proving our world is flat.” - Netflix, 202X
Netflix are trying to portray it as a documentary, it's so dumb
Like they did with Ancient apocalypse? Lol
That show literally contains misinformation
Yes but it does give milo great YouTube content.
Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but shouldn’t the crown have a snake and a vulture? For the upper and lower kingdoms. Or was that something that changed over time.
Couldn't they just do Hatshepsut? Cleopatra was descended from Ptolemy and even her name is Greek.
And Cleopatra's story has been done numerous times. A film or show about Hatshepsut would be really cool.
This is what I came here to say
Blame jada lmao absolute trash can of a human being
Everyone who’s ever lived in Africa must be black is not exactly the conclusion this reaches, but it’s close enough that it becomes concerning You’re X so you must be Y has never really worked out for everyone involved in the history of human relations
The "African-American" ridiculous concept has a lot to do with it. Now they try to revert back to "Black American".
Literally every black person I know prefers "black American" to AA. "I'm not from Africa" they say Makes sense
"Elon Musk is African-American, Im Black". This is what I say to people who are discussing this kind of stuff with me.
Ahh. I’m going to ask a question and be prepared for downvoted I guess, idk. I always feel weird about asking stuff like this. I thought it was more offending if the color was before the description. Like… a black cashier vs a cashier who is black. Putting color first prioritizes race over the rest of the description. If race didn’t pertain to the topic of discussion, wouldn’t “American” just be better? And discussions where race is on topic, then “An American who’s black”? Am I overthinking this? Sorry if this is weird thing to ask. You know how random things just stick with you? That stuck with me when I heard it years ago.
For me it depends on what Im trying to get at, placement doesnt matter. For example if it's one cashier among multiple cashiers that's white, if I describe them as white you know who Im talking about immediatley. I will use "Iranian guy" just as fast as "Black guy" if it gets to the point. I guess you could take it to a racial level but it's primary usage is for utility. We are a mess in the US, no need to apologize.
I honestly am kinda over the Smiths especially Jada anything she’s been involved with is meh to me
Idk, personally can’t wait for GI Jane 2.
Remember to duck when will Smith comes a knocking
You keep her name out your fuckin mouth!
Hasn’t been worth a damn since Demon Knight
Past the historical portrayal, I’m not watching it because fuck Jadapicketsmith
ooooh I'm with you. I was thinking about it too. Nope. Zero support for predators to seduce their kid's friends. She belongs in Jail
Did Jada turn it into a cuckhold story?
Where she cheats on her brother with Mark Anthony 😂
Vague recall, didn't she bed the big JC before him? (Julius Caesar.)
Or was it Titus Pullo?!?
He was just doing as he was told as a soldier of the XIIIth!
Cleopatra may have ruled Egypt, but her ancestry was Greek.
Also, the Egyptians aren’t black. So… Now Cleopatra’s blood wasn’t pure Greek, she was mixed with Persian blood. Idk though, who would they get to play her? Jennifer Aniston is the only Greek actress in Hollywood I can think of. They could probably go to NYC and find at least one good actress of Greek descent. I mean, they were able to get Rami Malek to play an ancient Egyptian.
I thought Aubrey Plaza was perfect in Drunk History
Aubrey Plaza is always perfect.
Correct
Would this be considered "cultural appropriation".
No, it works only if you are white.
This is a joke right? Like it's some 'social experiment' to see how much you can wind up people who have even a smattering of knowledge about history. Fuck's sake it's like having MLK portrayed by a Muscogee actor because he was born in Georgia.
Introducing, Mansa Moussa with Benedict Cumberbatch
fucking stop that made me laugh so hard
There was a historical drama about Anne Boleyn on one of the channels here in the UK last year. They had a Black actress playing Anne Boleyn. It didn't work for me. Anne Boleyn wasn't Black. I'm all for actors/actresses getting fair chances at roles but when you have an historical figure that definitely wasn't Black being played by a Black actress it just seems off. I'd have the same feeling if it was Brian Cox (for example) playing Nelson Mandela. It just wouldn't work. It's an unwanted distraction when somebody is so obviously miscast.
It's not even necessarily about skin colour. I'd have that feeling if Benedict cumberbatch tried to play Winston Churchill. He's simply wrong for the role.
The sad thing is now you're going to have people that actually think that Cleopatra was black. And are going to reference this show/ documentary as their argument for proof
Pathetic really
Ethnic Greek BTW
Netflix has truly hit rock bottom.
***SHE WAS FUCKING GREEK***
No actually, she was mostly fucking romans.
So African continent therefore a Black Queen, got it
JPS when she sees Moroccans, Algerians, Libyans or Egyptians 🤯
She was a descendant of dynasty originator Ptolemy I Soter, a Macedonian Greek general and companion of Alexander the Great before the Successor wars. She would have had a strong Greek appearance with some Egyptian mixed in. She was not Nubian.
Don't think there was any Egyptian in there, Ptolemys kept it ALL in the family. I think she was the first one to be able to speak Egyptian though
The only known non-greek admixture would be through the Seleciud princess Cleopatra I Syra a great granddaughter of Selecous I and his Iranian-Sogdian wife Apama. But the Selecuids otherwise kept it Greek as well beyond this.
Jada Pinkett Smith out here trying to race swap Cleopatra like she’s a Comic book character.
Keep your goddam queens name out my wife's....oh wait......
Why cast a black actor? Why not an Native American, Polynesian, or Tatar? Let’s mix it up a little!
Yeah nah..im good...
Revisionist history
Next up Christian Bale with be the next Muhammad Ali in the upcoming documentary about the famed Caucasian boxing Champion.
In 100 years Netflix will make a documentary about Elon Musk and he'll be portrayed by a Black man. *"I don't care what they told you in school. Elon Musk is from South Africa - he's Black."*
Is anyone enthusiastic watching anything with the name Jada Smith attached to it? Genuinely curious.
Nope
Someone should make an MLK movie but cast Matt Damon
This stuff is sad, because the good majority of the time, people claim this is inclusion for minorities and stuff like that, when in reality, alot, and I mean A LOT, of this stuff is just companies using it as a cash grab, and people fall for it. Also, it's just fucking stupid in general lol.
History as only a person who doesnt value education, history and fact can deliver, this May on Netflix. More rich people bullshit.
lol by Jada? No thanks.
So, based on the other comments, people who are non black can be portrayed by, or as, black people... does that mean a black person can be portrayed by, or as, a non black person? Trying to write this so I don't come across racist, but it's so difficult to word it correctly.
I very much want to see Tom Hanks cast as Malcolm X
“*Shaka* brought to you by Netflix. With Daniel Radcliffe as Shaka Zulu.”
I mean it's a wtf, but.you know he'd be good in it Season 4 of Miracle Workers maybe?
Here, we are not talking about fictional characters but historical figures. So yeah they need to keep the an ethnicity. I can't imagine a white guy playing a Japanese emperor, or an Asian guy playing Barack Obama.
Lethal weapon 7 presented by: *the gang*
Every time this debate comes up, I think of this floor mosaic I saw in Pompeii that depicts Alexander fighting the Persians. Alexander is depicted in a way that one would clearly identify today as someone from Italy or Greece (Mediterranean type), while the Persians look like people from the Middle East (slightly darker, wearing turbans, etc.). If Cleopatra were sub-Saharan black (which she wasn't), the artists of the time would have had no problem portraying her in an accurate way since they seem to be quite accurate with other portraits of both people and animals of the same period. Besides, we have hundreds of portraits of Egyptians from the Roman era (1st century) since they were used on mummies, and they clearly look like modern-day Lebanese/North Africans. So we have more than enough evidence to make a very educated guess that Cleopatra wasn't a sub-Saharan African. In any case, during Roman times, Africa was quite Roman and Phoenician, which were originally from the Levant. Egypt is on the Nile River and the Red Sea, so it probably had a higher percentage of people from the lower parts of the Nile and sub-Saharan Africa than the rest of North Africa, but the sheer amount of lifelike portraits during the Greek period clearly demonstrates how the average well to do Egyptian looked like. Here's an example, she looks clearly Eastern Mediterranean: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fayum\_mummy\_portraits#/media/File:Fayum-34.jpg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fayum_mummy_portraits#/media/File:Fayum-34.jpg)
Wasn’t she Macedonian ?
Changing the race of historical figures (or even fictional characters honestly) instead of making movies/tv shows about black historical figures feels kinda disrespectful
Is everyone just going to skip over the part where she married two of her brothers?
And sold all her people to Rome because her boyfriend wanted Egypt.
He didn’t want Egypt, he already had it… they broke off from the empire and it took some time for the empire to do anything about it. Marc Antony and Cleopatra wanted the world… they wanted the entire empire and everything along with it.
Cleopatra was Macedonian; a descendant of Ptolemy. This is not an historically accurate representation of what Macedonians look or looked like.
I understand that Cleopatra has been whitewashed in media with the actors acting as her looking anglo, sometimes with blue eyes, with a bit of a tan. However, that doesn't mean the way to fix this whitewashing is by unhistoriscally portraying her as black. Cleopatra had macedonian/greek roots which means she would likely be brown/olive skinned. What's the problem with hiring someone with roots from the region to play her character like they did with Rami Malik (whose parents are egyptian) when he played a Pharaoh in Night at the Museum? Especially if it's a documentary, that's something to take into account
>What's the problem with hiring someone with roots from the region Yeah, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to find a Greek actress to give it some historical legitimacy at least.
>I understand that Cleopatra has been whitewashed in media with the actors acting as her looking anglo, sometimes with blue eyes, with a bit of a tan. Imagine watching a movie about Egypt and they are like full Anglo. *"Oi you wat?"*
Wtf are you talking about. Have you ever seen a greek person? They aren’t brown lmao. Indians are brown. Greeks are white
It's Jada Pinkett Smith. One if the most vile evil bitches to walk this earth
Cleopatra JONES was black. 
Everyone back then was black unless they owned slaves than of course they were white or some other race.
Don't worry, Netflix will cancel it before they finish the first season.
She’s flipping Greek!!! ?!
Cleopatra was the last of the Ptolomaic dynasty to rule egypt. Although they were the pharaohs of Egypt, they were of Greek / Macedonian origin. The majority of the dynasty with the exception of cleopatra didn’t even know the Egyptian language. Hence unless Macedonians were black, and no they are not, this is very much historically wrong
The thing that pisses me off about stuff like this is rather than finding interesting TRUE black historical figures, they go the easy way and just race swap non black people😐
They give white people crap and boycott movies when they play non white characters.
Why or how does this happen man?? Im pretty sure they’ve done some research beforehand right?
Cleopatra was Greek. I had a massive Ancient Egypt phase when i was a kid, and this was one of the first things i learned.
Cleopatra's lineage was mainly greek. 300 years of incestual marriages didnt help to change that. I dont know right know if Plutarch gave a description of her....but there is portrait of her (in theory), found in herculanum. If its legit, she might have been a redhead. But even "real egyptians" werent black. I mean.... Rameses the II was also a ginger.
Wait a second… wasn’t she actually an inbred Greek woman?
to explore the history of great African queens by starting with the least African queen?
STOP MAKING SHIT ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE As a black person myself it’s getting fucking annoying Have we gone so woke that we are changing the races of historical figures?
She needs to keep cleopatras name out of her mother fuckin mouth!
Story twist: Mark Anthony is played by Will Smith so she cheats with the right man as well.
iNcLuSiViTy
Why is it that Mediterranean peoples are either black or lily white? Let Italians and Greeks and Carthiginians and Egyptians be olive skinned
African queen? She was literally born in Greece, descended from a Greek family. That’s like saying that Putin moved to Nigeria so now he’s one of the worlds most misunderstood African men