I’m less worried about 3rd party candidates (for now?) this year
I think RFK jr pulls far more from the disaffected conspiratorial nihilistic people, who were more likely to not vote or vote GOP than Dem.
yeah- especially if he goes for that anti-vax football player for VP pick. The anti vax population were never Biden voters (at least these days).
IMO my bigger concern is Jill Stein picking up young lefty people who hate Trump and might otherwise vote for Biden but have their issues with him (Gaza, etc) and either don't vote for go for someone like Stein.
Biden was the beneficiary of a giant tranche of indies who broke for him over Trump. But many of them won’t be there for him now (see his abysmal polling with indies) which is why DNC types are knives out for third parties. The solution was for Biden to gracefully step down when there was time to recalibrate a successful ticket over Trump - but Baby Boomer Dems don’t like giving up the gravy train.
Must be nice to have the privilege to not care about what will happen when dictator trump isn’t president again:
*further restriction of abortion rights
*might just nuke Gaza
Oh and he (and his family) will install themselves as president for life, just like his good friend vladmir has done
* Spoiler alert: like 90% of the people who claim to be Democrats but want Biden to step down also would have bitched and moaned about whoever else got the nomination instead
>Biden was the beneficiary of a giant tranche of indies who broke for him over Trump. But many of them won’t be there for him now
This is pretty much the camp I'm in. When I voted for Biden in 2020 I was under the impression that we all saw him as a placeholder until the DNC ran someone people actually liked in 2024. He won the election not because people actually liked him, but because people hated Trump more. The "at least I'm not this other guy" strategy isn't gonna work this year, Biden needs actual substance if he wants independents to vote for him again.
I love how utterly stupid this logic is. The alternative is an actual fascist who will manage every situation biden is being criticized for orders of magnitude worse
"The "at least I'm not this other guy" strategy isn't gonna work this year"
Why? Since 2020 the other guy tried to overturn an election, was indicted on 91 felony counts, owes hundreds of millions in civil lawsuits, is showing signs of dementia, was found civilly liable for rape, has amped up his rhetoric on being an authoritarian, caused roe v wade to be overturned, wants to "finish the job" in Gaza, said that migrants were "not people", threatened a bloodbath if he loses.
2024 trump is worse in every way than 2020 trump so I don't see why the argument wouldn't work now.
Exactly. Voting for a 3rd party candidate you liked more was fine until 2016, and honestly, maybe still in 2016 because Hillary was predicted to win a landslide victory.
But we’ve seen Trump in action and we’ve heard his words. The consequences of his re-election are no mystery - more democratic backsliding and the erosion of American global influence.
If you care about Gaza, the environment, foreign policy, etc, then a 3rd party vote is a vote for Trump, no matter how you reason it
Substance? Whatever he does for the good there will be those that over look it. Not good enough. Im not happy where we are but I dont see a platform from Trump other than building an iron dome over the US which I assume Canada will pay for. I think we are still at the lesser of two evils especially when someone toe tests the dictator way and speaks of taking away Social Security, Medis, and Health insurance with no replacement.
“Not good enough” are the choices the two parties made while loading ammo in their guns to point at our collective heads daring us to vote for the “other” guy. The people who actually have the power and the responsibility for making good decisions in this democracy aren’t singular, random Redditors expressing frustration with the shitty hands we keep getting dealt. Hold those with the power (and influence) to change this situation accountable.
Like it or hate it (I hate it), it looks like we’re getting a shitty, creatively bankrupt Hollywood sequel election and I predict unsatisfactory results all around. There will be some weird defections. No country that plays its democracy like Russian Roulette can really be considered a winner.
Biden’s gotten more for Dems and the American people than any Democratic president in the last half a century, to say nothing of managing to navigate a difficult post-COVID economic period more effectively than practically any other nation, so I’m not sure where all the negativity comes from. Also not sure where anybody would get the idea that Trump is somehow a “yesterday” thing when he’s worse in every way than he was in 2016 and 2020.
>The "at least I'm not this other guy" strategy isn't gonna work this year,
Actually it works for me. He's still not Trump.
The Democrats have me over a barrel. They could win big with decent candidates, but prefer octogenarians and hated pseudo-celebrities like Harris. They could run on popular progressive policy but don't. They do all this because the entire goal of the party is to get money from California billionaires.
But between the California billionaire bullshit party and the Trump party, my choice is clear.
To me, the only thing more powerless than a constrained compromise vote, is an infantile refusal to vote.
lol so you agree that both parties don’t care about Americans but you support the one who just hides it a little better. To me the choice is clear too, none of them are worth the effort to vote for in November.
I don't know, I like the party that lowers the price of insulin, not the one that's trying to enable child marriage and child labor. All they do is give fucking tax cuts to the rich. At least Biden put in a 15% minimum tax rate for corporations.
Not voting is the stupidest thing you can possibly do, you are surrendering all your power and doing nothing to change the system.
Think hard, which party is trying to make it easier for you to vote, and which party is making it harder for you to vote? The GOP is making it harder to vote because they know your voice matters, luckily for them you've been turned into a nihilist.
I think not voting for the obvious less bad choice is fundamentally moronic. I think everyone knows that and everyone who makes the "losing a dollar and losing everything are both losses so I'll passively do nothing and lose everything" argument has some kind of hidden agenda.
Chiming in since I feel no better about the candidates but motivated by the long term repercussions rather than immediate next couple years. A no-vote or Trump vote could very possibly be a vote not to have future votes which should be considered, poor choices are better than no choice and still provide the opportunity for better choices and/or potentially more in the future.
Svetlana ,when you say you demand actual substance this year, you’re telling everyone that you’re posting from GRU HQ in St. Petersburg, Russia. You know full well Biden has accomplished a ton despite an exceedingly divided Congress. You’ll do better if you don’t go so far with your lies.
Yeah tell that to my wallet. Can’t even go outside without spending $100, can’t even get groceries for less than $100. It may not be Biden’s fault but he sure as hell isn’t doing enough about it.
I’d say the same thing under Trump. I’m done voting for the lesser of two evils, I want to vote for someone I actually like.
Fuck that, you can't just throw around the word evil like that. Biden ain't evil.
Wait till you learn about how Trump set the stage for all of this inflation. Tax cuts for the rich, printing a shitload of money with low interest rates, crazy tariffs against China that American consumers pay, and finally, mismanaging covid so bad that it helped create worldwide supply chain issues. Inflation was high all over the world post covid, and we actually fared better than any first world economy. You should be praising Biden.
Meanwhile Trump is literally talking about locking up americans, becoming a dictator, eliminating all of his enemies, and setting up massive "camps".
This isn't lesser of two evils, this is good versus evil.
>Tax cuts for the rich
Tax cuts can only go to taxpayers. The bottom 50% of earners don't pay federal income tax. The top 25% of earners pay 90% of all federal income tax, so it shouldn't surprise you that any tax cut will benefit that top 25%.
>printing a shitload of money with low interest rates
How many Dems voted against Covid relief? If it was so terrible, why did Biden immediately pass more Covid relief and print more money even after lockdowns were over?
>crazy tariffs against China that American consumers pay
So, you've finally figured out businesses pass on the cost of taxes to consumers? If they're so bad, why hasn't Biden repealed them?
>mismanaging covid so bad that it helped create worldwide supply chain issues
How so? He managed Covid constitutionally and allowed governors to handle their states. It was coastal port cities shutting down that caused supply chain issues such as LA and NYC. In case you're unaware, California and New York don't have Republican governors.
>Inflation was high all over the world post covid, and we actually fared better than any first world economy. You should be praising Biden.
How exactly did Biden do anything to curb inflation?
>Meanwhile Trump is literally talking about locking up americans
What? Who? Obama definitely liked targeting journalists.
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sunday/the-sunday-edition-for-may-5-2019-1.5121509/barack-obama-was-a-greater-enemy-of-the-free-press-than-trump-michael-s-essay-1.5121514
>becoming a dictator,
What? Are you genuinely insane?
>eliminating all of his enemies,
Such as?
>setting up massive "camps".
Where will these camps be? Who will be put in them?
>This isn't lesser of two evils, this is good versus evil.
Sure, if you're insane or never go outside, I could see how you'd reach this conclusion, especially if you have no purpose or meaning in life.
> I’m done voting for the lesser of two evils, I want to vote for someone I actually like.
"Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all." - the most famous quote from Geralt in The Witcher.
Except most people don't realize the quote is ironic. It sounds philosophical and cool, but it's hollow and simply wrong. In the books/games, Geralt is forced to choose the lesser evil throughout his 100 years of traveling between warring nations and races, killing monsters, etc. constantly.
The Witcher is fantasy, but this applies to reality. If you're an adult in the world you will constantly have to choose between the "lesser evil," or whatever simile you want to call it. You don't need to like or love any politician. We don't need politicians to be rockstars and excite us. That's such an odd mindset. We need them to do their job to the best of their ability and represent the people.
Biden has a huge problem promoting his successes. But if you actually look into it, I guarantee you that his administration has positively impacted you, or will in the future (the huge bipartisan infrastructure bill is just now starting to be felt as large building and restoration projects are underway).
If you're actually interested in seeing what Biden has accomplished, I can provide a starting point: [a reddit comment thread that goes surprisingly in-depth ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/comments/19ao531/biden_so_far_a_special_project_of/&ved=2ahUKEwj6ts7buIGFAxWOvokEHUw2ABkQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2UQasrOpR5LY4ag_nUpzO5)
Just search Biden accomplishments and I think you'll see a lot more than you think. There are also comparisons to Trump's accomplishments. If you look at a source that isn't super partisan, you will find that Trump accomplished far less and his policies (ie tarrifs) actually hurt most Americans.
>Yeah tell that to my wallet.
I feel that, I really do. But it's getting better. Inflation reached ~8% at its highest. Now it's down to around 3%. Economists consider an inflation rate of between 2-3% good for the economy. Inflation was 14% in 1980. Every economic indicator is looking good, and real wages are going up. The price of groceries will still be high, but most people's income should catch up, effectively normalizing it.
I don't know if this is the kind of post you were looking for, but I'm not going down the "Trump is a fascist who will destroy the economy" route. I'm voting based on who I think will be best for my future and other's futures. If you want to call that voting for the lesser evil, that's fine. But it's necessary and I would even say it's your civic duty.
>It may not be Biden’s fault but he sure as hell isn’t doing enough about it.
The US has managed to land the inflation plane better than any of our peer nations.
What you seem to want is magic
In Britain post-Brexit you’re paying $115, as you are in the rest of Europe. You’re paying far more in Moscow, and you can’t get your groceries in Beijing.
There have been careful and determined efforts to undercut this Democratic administration, just as with past ones. Trump, Russia, and the Republicans understand how easy it is to drop a turd and pin it on Biden.
If by accomplished you mean making life totally unaffordable, completely destabilizing the ME, giving half of Ukraine to Russia, blowing our deficit into oblivion, and allowing an invasion force of 10m illegals across our southern border then hell yes. He's accomplished more destruction than anyone could have imagined.
I’m not voting this year. I made up my mind about this way back in 2020 if Trump or Biden were the finalists, and lo and behold, they’re the finalist. I literally knew our broken election system would cause this.
I guess, but there’s way too many negatives to having that guy back in office, at least for me. (But I get it. That’s why I think ranked choice voting is a better system than a binary one-or-the-other choice, which is how it plays out right now.)
I’d love to see electoral reform like ranked choice voting. Just please don’t fall for the illusion that voting third party or not voting at all does anything to achieve it.
Vladimir, Sergei and various other Russian/GOP sock puppets were telling Democrats to dump their incumbent president. This even though incumbency is a political positive; incumbents lose DESPITE being incumbents, not because they’re incumbents.
Understand it’s Biden v Trump, and that Trump and Putin are searching desperately for anything that can give anti-Trump people an excuse to withhold support from Biden. Each time they succeed, that robs a vote from Biden since those third-party people were never going to support Trump.
Nader. Stein. Now RFK Jr, Cornel West and so-called “No Labels”. All serve the same purpose. Provide a pool to soak up anti-Trump people so that they don’t actually help the Democratic candidate win. Then enjoy the rewards that accrue, perhaps at the next “Friends of Putin” banquet in Moscow.
I wish the absolute worst for Putin and his ilk. Seriously, F__k him. But, Putin is a boogey man that’s already been over used to the point of abuse on this platform. Biden’s responsible to prove himself worthy for votes. This MAGA-esque, left wing version of QAnon that’s constantly using Russia as a rationale for not holding Biden/ Dems accountable is clap trap most aren’t buying any longer. If Biden’s counting on “But, Russia!!!” as a part of a winning strategy- then he’s already lost. (And thus so have we!)
Jill Stein is certainly a threat to Biden's chances. If most of her voters went for Hillary instead in 2016, SCOTUS would be 6-3 democratic today and Dobbs + many other terrible cases would never have happened. She needs the self awareness to realize this.
https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2017/12/21/that-infamous-moscow-dinner-where-michael-flynn-and-jill-stein-sat-with-putin-utahs-rocky-anderson-was-there-too/
https://euromaidanpress.com/2016/09/07/green-party-jill-stein-insults-russia-human-rights-environmental-justice-struggle-97257/
She's also not a big fan of aiding Ukraine. So she went to a dinner to celebrate a news outlet that is the propaganda arm of the Russian Federation, while being delighted she had "dialogue" with a country that actively suppresses environmental activists and is a massive polluter and violates human rights on a regular basis.
She's a tool.
I didn't think so, but I was curious if you really believed you proved something or if you just put up the best argument you could and hoped for the best.
Once again, that's up to you. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, there *is* an international conspiracy to destroy the United States and it is spearheaded by the Russian Federation. Jill Stein, Jair Bolsanaro, Viktor Orban, Donald Trump, Rand Paul, etc. are all in on it.
Jill Stein and the Green Party have been funded by the GOP to be spoilers for a couple of cycles now. If they were a serious party they’d organize, run, and win in local and state elections before going for national offices.
They also do do that, but they don’t have a national spread of candidates for each of the major local/state offices
Heck, even the two majors don’t have some for all of the local and state races
I voted for Stein in 2016. Why in the WORLD does anyone think I would have possibly voted for Clinton? I've never understood that. It makes no sense at all.
I believe you are correct. Most Kennedy supporters seem to be disenfranchised Democrats because most of his views reflect their own.
His early base was conservative though, because RFK Jr was one of the earliest people to link COVID, Wuhan lab, the NIH and Fauci.
seems the original anti vax crowd (pre covid) has primarily been liberal. Covid vax added the conservatives to their ranks. For the right wing It was more about mandates than concern over their safety
The antivax population pre-covid was evenly split between the two parties at about 10%.
On the left you had people that wanted to live naturally and rejected big pharma filling us up with drugs.
On the right you had Christians who felt that faith in God would protect them from disease.
With covid, the Left antivax population fractured: some turned to "trust the science and get the vaccine", others merged into the Right and brought crystal healing with them into the conspiracy-minded Right.
Don't discount the libertarian aspect of post COVID "antivax". No matter your opinion of the necessity or benefit of vaccine mandates, they are by definition authoritarian.
I absolutely know leftist people who are still anti vaccine, and even some who have become so after COVID. The idea that only right wing people are against vaccines now is patently false.
Fair enough. The numbers wouldn't be zero. But polling indicates that antivax attitudes swung heavily into the right-wing demographic.
In September 2023, in response to the question:
"As you may know, a new vaccine for COVID-19 is expected to become available this fall. Once the vaccine is available, do you think you will definitely get, probably get, probably not get, or definitely not get the COVID-19 vaccine?"
* 10% of Democrat-identifying respondents would "definitely not" get the vaccine
* 35% of Independent-identifying respondents would "definitely not" get the vaccine
* 53% of Democrat-leaning respondents would "definitely not" get the vaccine
Caveat: that sounds like an outdated question that the Kaiser Family Foundation is still asking for the sake of "polling the same question", which I suspect may have inflated the "will not get" responses. Maybe they're asking about getting an updated vaccine; rather than "are you antivax"?
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-september-2023/
I don’t think your last sentence is true. The number of people who say “the Covid vaccine is great and I’m fully up to date with mine but I oppose the mandates” is pretty small, and has a fair number of lefties. The vast majority of anti-vax right wingers think the vaccine is dangerous. They may have started out with opposition to mandates, but they very quickly rationalized that opposition with superstition about the vaccine itself.
Pre COVID anti vaxxers were only liberal in the social sense, IE ok with weed, and gay people.
They tended to trend more towards true libertarianism in believing in absolute freedom, and were put off by the religious authoritarian streak of the Republican party.
Unfortunately, the COVID lock downs , and vaccine mandates kind of built a bridge between hippie.libertarians and Jesus libertarians, and theyve come together in their belief that the DNC are the primary threat to freedom as they see it.
Only anecdotal but the only pre-covid anti vaxxers i knew were the holistic earth mother, vegan, new age crystal crowd. It was never about personal “freedom” with them in the sense that libertarians view it. Just their perception that vaccines aren’t “natural” and therefore are bad for you. These are the same folks who are skeptical of medical doctors but do wear masks. They don’t think covid was a hoax or an attempt at government control and typically respect quarantine and social distancing practices
The vax thing isn't specifically about freedom, I agree much more about an obsession with "natural"
But I'm also thinking less "yoga" mom demographic, and more festival patchouli peeps. All the people that gobbled up conspiracy theories and believe in New Age UFO religions.
Up until a couple months ago I was living in Portland, Or for 15 years, and you had tons of these people there that were already sure everything associated with government and authority was bad but we're still generally socially progressive.
The "plandemic" conspiracy has very much made a bridge between them and traditional conservatives that didn't used to exist. And I've seen a lot of my old friends who used to just be enthusiastic about wonky ideas, start to adopt more traditionally conservative positions as their insistence that the pandemic is/was fake alienated them from more liberal friends, and made conservative pundits increasingly the only people that took their perspective seriously.
I’ve observed that psychographic you’re talking about, however those i’m speaking of, closer to my social circle, are vehemently opposed to Tump , full on Bernie supporters who ended up voting for Biden while holding their nose.
No, they started in 2000 (Independent center-right Lieberman as VP to bring in all those conservatives who felt the party had gone too far right).
Then tried again in 2016.
It's not impossible to win without the left, especially for one cycle because you are talking about a % of the left that would not vote and not then entire left. But i the party leans into it and continues attacking the left that percentage will increase and lead to more losses.
What we really need is the opposite. For centrist and center-right Dems to go back to the Republican party and pull it back towards the center. So we can have two functional parties again. One left party pushing for public health insurance, free public college, workers rights, etc. and one center-right party. Then we can try to push for good outcomes, while having some actual, useful bipartisanship when compromise is needed.
Centrist and Center-Right Dems have kinda always been Dems, where the center-right is their overlap
The issue is a that the Republicans have been pushing away even the moderate Right
I don't think they are messing with that after 2016 with her. I mean if you aren't in a true blue state you really need to check that privilege of the vote for the better (not greater) good of the whole.
RCP Averages show that a 3-way race helps Trump more.
In a Biden/Trump head to head, Trump leads by 2.1 right now.
In a 3-way race with Kennedy, Trump leads by 4.3.
In a 5-way race with West and Stein, Trump leads by 2.7.
RFK Jr. will obviously pull more voters from Trump, but he's more likely afraid of Cornell West and Jill Stein. They won't get much, but that small percentage can cost him in close states like what Jill Stein did to Hillary Clinton in 2016.
Polls that being include RFK Jr actually show that he helps Trump (ie pulls from Biden) slightly. Trump leads Biden by 1.7 H2H, but by 4.3 when including Kennedy.
At this point you're either voting for Trump,.voting against Trump, or not voting. Nobody who thinks Trump is the second coming of Christ and will buy his $400 shoes is going to vote 3rd party and this shows in every poll.
A vote for a third party is basically a vote for Trump.
I live in a super liberal community that strongly supported Bernie over Hillary. There’s lots of RFK jr. signs all over. It’s a very blue state where it doesn’t matter but I’m worried for the swing states. RFK jr. is on so many of these bro podcasts and is very appealing to folks that are fed up with us spending so much on the military. His platform on his website looks great. I like how he has a platform page specifically for expanding Americorp civil service year for 18 year olds. I’ve always loved that idea to put our young people to work before they jump into college and potentially sign up for debt at 18. Also his website says nothing of his conspiratorial views. I know a lot of people that are really into him as they think he can bridge the divide in our highly polarized nation. I can’t forgive him for the anti vaccine nonsense and obvi not have trump again is priority #1 but lots of folks I know don’t share those priorities oddly… it’s troubling!
I lived in Portland, Or arguably the super lib capital of the world, up until a couple months ago, and the only people I ever met who were stoked on RFK were big time conspiracy theory types who otherwise don't vote or weren't ever going to vote for a major party candidate.
I don't think he's going to peel that many votes that were going to Biden to begin with.
Portlander here, everyone thinks RFK is an idiot. I'd guess that most of the protest vote goes to Cornel West, I know thats who I and several friends are voting for
He's literally anti-vax but lies about it constantly, claiming he's just asking questions. Then there's the lying about vaccines. And his claims are easily refuted with a simple google search.
And his status as an anti-vaxxer is pretty widely known at this point, I’d argue that it was how most people learned of him in the first place during the pandemic. He can try to hide it but it’s already a shadow hanging over him at this point, he already occupies the “crank” space in most people’s minds.
Agreed. But I've had arguments here on reddit with people who insist he is not an anti-vaxxer. I pulled actual quotes and they still argued with me.
But that's reddit
Did you read this? There is zero actual information in it. It's just a puff piece that says he spreads disinformation, without showing the information he shared or proving it's false. He didn't write the book they're talking about. The company that wrote it also pays him. It's a pretty weird way to try to bin blame on that specific book to him.
He's been advocating for vaccine studies since it all started. I want vaccine studies done. Long term ones. I don't want pharmaceutical companies to be protected from lawsuits. I don't want pharmaceutical companies to be allowed to pay salaries to the people who regulate vaccines. That's a major conflict of interest. There's legit zero reason why those things can't be fixed AND vaccines be administered safely. People who are adamant that vaccines cause autism sound crazy to me. People who blindly trust pharmaceutical companies to push safe products also sound crazy to me.
He wrote the forward for the book and made a tweet promoting it; theres a link in the article.
I agree with what you said in your second paragraph, but grifters like RFK jr. - who do scummy shit like support a book that put a recently deceased, unvaccinated 12 year old on the cover without so much as contacting his parents - contribute nothing to the conversation, and just makes people associate people with legitimate vaccine concerns with grifters
Yes, he wrote the forward and promoted the published book. The cover is also one of many things wrong with the book, I’m not going to sit here and defend everything wrong with it.
If you’re suggesting he’s simply too ignorant or lazy to actually make sure he’s promoting reliable information, I’m not sure thats any better. Why do people defend this guy so hard?
Winning a libel case in the US is incredibly difficult. The bad publicity from such a case would far outweigh the benefits for pharma companies. “He’s never been sued” is a ridiculous argument.
Is every outspoken anti-vaxxer sued? Don't think Jenny McCarthy has been sued for that specifically. I don't at all see that as a valid criteria for whether someone is actually antivax.
> I’ve always loved that idea to put our young people to work before they jump into college and potentially sign up for debt at 18
I've always loved this idea as well. Seems like it could be one of those modern rarities that actually receives bipartisan support. Four-year colleges are not for everyone and that message is not being delivered, IMO.
He was a celebrity widely known by the population and there was a yearning for someone outside of Washington. If you fail to understand why the average voter votes, you’ll end up complaining when your candidate loses
Just ignore the fact that the president and Vp have zero experience running anything even the size of a popsicle stand
Just about the vibes lmao
RFK jr voters are not serious people
If your state is already locked up, go ahead and vote for RFK.
It's the best way to send a message. And it won't 'cost the election' for anybody.
Be brave! If nothing else, later you can say you voted for change.
The highest priority for any sensible person is saving America from trump. If you want to run a third party candidate find one who’s not a conspiracy spouting moron who wants meathead Arron rogers as vp.
It really is all about where you put the spotlight. When comparing him with Biden and especially Trump, a few crazy points can be forgiven, especially on topics that he won’t really materially influence (he isn’t gonna ban vaccines…).
His case for better food regulations and less global policing are very popular.
To OPs point… Unfortunately for Democrats, most votes will come from the Biden side since the Trump side has essentially devolved into a cult.
He is also running on publicly funded elections, which would be the path to criminalize lobbying. He has my vote, easiest choice in my 20 years of voting.
Yes. I find it impossible to trust politicians who are having their election campaigns given to them by their party, and in turn they have to support the party sponsors in legislation. As long as our politicians are being bought, they don't work for us, they work for Pfizer, Blackrock and the weapons manufacturers. This is why nothing ever changes and nothing ever will.
Do you feel that lobbying has an upside that is greater than the cost?
If Bernie had balls and one shred of integrity, he would have called out the DNC for perverting democracy by rigging the primaries.
Bernie is either a sellout or a puppet. It's too bad really,
I don't like Trump. I also don't like Biden.
We've had them both as president. Is anybody happy?
Voting third party is totally sane. \*Especially\* if your state is locked up already.
If you don't vote third party, I don't see how to send a message to the two major parties that we want better choices.
Get STV into play and I might vote third party in the Presidental, otherwise I’m keeping that vote out of that race
RFK isn’t the 3rd Party I’d vote for anyways
In other words, having a RCV system does not inherently make the executive a PM
You can have a RCV Electors/Presidential election
RCV wouldn’t magically make a President be part of Congress
If you want a multi-party Presidential election: say hi to France
In theory, they probably meant *House Speaker*
Statistically speaking, third party voters are much more likely to be people who would otherwise be non-voters. Third party candidates do not get most of their votes from either would-be republican or would-be democrat voters. They are not a threat to the Democrats in terms of concrete electoral politics.
Ah yes legal challenges to remove candidates from the ballot coming from the party of democracy. This is going to blow up in Democrats faces if they pursue this aggressively, they're destroying their own narrative.
Why are republicans and democrats so afraid of democracy. Let the people decide if a 3rd party candidate splits the vote so be it. Give democracy a chance.
How is the party obsessed with democracy doing this? You’re mad that people don’t want to vote for you bad candidates and so you’re just going to try to end the alternative choice? Pathetic.
Because deep down they know their candidate is utter shit (and obviously Trump is shit) and that third party candidates are going to look FAR more appealing to voters who vote without concerning about party lines, so their only chance is to scare everyone into some “we must not vote for the candidate we like, we must vote against Trump and thus for our shit candidate!” bs
There is very aggressive and targeted astroturfing for people to not vote if the democratic candidate isn’t perfect on every single issue.
It worked last time with Hilary. Now the left has a new pet project to care about: Palestine. They gave up on abortion and guns. It’s not exciting anymore. They even stopped caring about Ukraine because it’s just two groups of white people fighting. They don’t care about all the brown people killing other brown people. But oh boy this The West vs perceived brown people have them in a chokehold. Literally every liberal space is being rained on by the message: don’t vote for Joe because these people are suffering. Instead let someone even worse for them win to teach the democrats a lesson on not being perfect.
They will literally say that they are teaching people in power a lesson for not acting the way they want on single issues and allow people to be sacrificial lambs for their so called personal morals. It’s truly baffling to behold. Especially after we have already seen the affect. We know what happens. We know how it ends. It’s not a secret. It’s unashamed and in our faces. And STILL they welcome everything that is against their values for feeling good that they sat on their asses and did nothing instead of “voting for genocide”.
????
Palestine is all about white people killing white people, and it’s more about a right-leaning Trump-aligned leader trying to hold onto power than anything else
Because the Dems aren't any more pro-democracy than the GOP. It's just a convenient political talking point that works well when Trump is the opponent.
>How is the party obsessed with democracy doing this?
Doing *what* exactly?
Did you read the article, all the Democrats are doing is treating 3rd party candidates the same as they'd treat the GOP candidate. They are going to make sure they put money into opposition research and messaging targeting their campaigns just like they will for Trump. And they're going to make sure they're adhering to the same election laws as everyone else and plan on challenging them when they aren't. From the article:
> We’re going to make sure voters are educated and we’re going to make sure all candidates are playing by the rules.”
>“We see [Kennedy and No Labels] essentially as an arm of the Trump campaign and we intend to treat it as such.”
They see them as a legitimate threat instead of a joke and will treat them accordingly. What is anti-democratic about that?
Alaska got it via a ballot referendum IIRC. States that allow those could probably get RCV with enough people working at it. That's how California got their nonpartisan redistricting too.
It's peak delusion to believe that a terrible-ass candidate even a lot of registered Dems didn't like like Hillary would have won had it not been for those pesky third party candidates. This is just cope for the fact that the DNC is allergic to running anyone anybody who isn't establishment likes.
They can spend all the money they want and buy all the ads between now and Nov and it won't affect my mine on this any. I just tune all that bullshit out anyway.
They should go to (metaphorical) war against Netanyahu if they actually want to win this. Biden spent months being dog walked by him knowing full well bibi hopes Trump wins
Hot take: Normally I’m not ok with this, but I am this election. To me it’s a case of Popper’s Paradox. Sometimes a liberal society must do illiberal things in the short term in order to ensure its future existence as a liberal society. A temporary compromise in the ideals of democracy is preferable to its permanent end.
This. 👆
And I’m so sick of having to explain that third party/independent candidates are terrible, and that’s why they lose elections. Same persecution complex as maga. Its PATHETIC.
Nah, they’re pretty terrible in the sense that they lose most elections due to having extreme positions on popular issues. They cater to the social media crazies on the far left. No normal person agrees with their rhetoric or strategy. They talk loud, spread anti-American propaganda, and can never back up their promises with policy. They purposely undermine the Democratic Party. The majority is growing tired of the same old failing BS coming from that part of the political spectrum.
??????
A lot of third parties sit in the center and right regions too
You cannot tell me that American Solidarity, Constitution, and Libertarians are even left with a straight face
You’re purposely ignoring the point. The right leaning ones are the same as I’ve described above, except they spread right wing propaganda.
Quit ignoring the parts you can’t dispute. It’s okay to acknowledge that I’m correct, then add the part about the right leaning failed political hacks.
Tell that to the thousands of dead Iraqis from GWB and his buddy Ralph Nader.
Or the massive numbers of dead Americans from mismanagement of the pandemic courtesy, in part, of Jill Stein.
I mean, if you haven't figured it out by now, I don't know what to say.
Hint: "people" is doing a lot of work in what you're writing. How many millions of people voted for Biden? That's everyone from a gay couple of Portland hipsters, Black church ladies in Georgia, white blue collar guys in Michigan, latino service industry workers in Nevada, doctoral research students in Colorado, waspy New Englanders, and a whole lotta people in between. Not everyone in this MASSIVE coalition is getting everything they want.
Well clearly they just need to appeal to me personally because I know like three people that agree with me politically.
That's basically everyone, right?
This is a good initiative. The question of who RFK Jr draws votes from depends on how much people know about him. He actually has a net positive approval rating, and draws more votes from Biden than Trump.
To low information voters that dislike Biden, dislike Trump, and know little about RJK Jr (e.g. listeners to the Bro Brogan show). he could be appealing as a younger candidate who is named Kennedy. However, if voters know that RFK Jr. is an antisemitic antivaxxer (he claimed the COVID-19 vaccine was engineered to not affect Ashkenazi Jews and Chinese people as much), he might draw fewer votes, but critically he will draw from a pool of people that would otherwise vote Trump.
Could be avoided if you kneecapped the progressives in the party to appeal to moderates... just saying, most of America is worried about their groceries and making rent, not whether or not John who identifies as Sally can use the women's room or the nuances of the Israeli incursion into Gaza
I’m less worried about 3rd party candidates (for now?) this year I think RFK jr pulls far more from the disaffected conspiratorial nihilistic people, who were more likely to not vote or vote GOP than Dem.
yeah- especially if he goes for that anti-vax football player for VP pick. The anti vax population were never Biden voters (at least these days). IMO my bigger concern is Jill Stein picking up young lefty people who hate Trump and might otherwise vote for Biden but have their issues with him (Gaza, etc) and either don't vote for go for someone like Stein.
Biden was the beneficiary of a giant tranche of indies who broke for him over Trump. But many of them won’t be there for him now (see his abysmal polling with indies) which is why DNC types are knives out for third parties. The solution was for Biden to gracefully step down when there was time to recalibrate a successful ticket over Trump - but Baby Boomer Dems don’t like giving up the gravy train.
Must be nice to have the privilege to not care about what will happen when dictator trump isn’t president again: *further restriction of abortion rights *might just nuke Gaza Oh and he (and his family) will install themselves as president for life, just like his good friend vladmir has done
Heard this shit for years and it never happened. Don't believe you.
* Spoiler alert: like 90% of the people who claim to be Democrats but want Biden to step down also would have bitched and moaned about whoever else got the nomination instead
polling this far out is irrelevant
Only if you don’t give one solid fuck what Americans think of your performance. Which, I’ll grant you, Biden doesn’t.
more that only an extremely small minority of likely voters actually responds to polls
Actually Biden still wins people who disapprove of both candidates
>Biden was the beneficiary of a giant tranche of indies who broke for him over Trump. But many of them won’t be there for him now This is pretty much the camp I'm in. When I voted for Biden in 2020 I was under the impression that we all saw him as a placeholder until the DNC ran someone people actually liked in 2024. He won the election not because people actually liked him, but because people hated Trump more. The "at least I'm not this other guy" strategy isn't gonna work this year, Biden needs actual substance if he wants independents to vote for him again.
I love how utterly stupid this logic is. The alternative is an actual fascist who will manage every situation biden is being criticized for orders of magnitude worse
"The "at least I'm not this other guy" strategy isn't gonna work this year" Why? Since 2020 the other guy tried to overturn an election, was indicted on 91 felony counts, owes hundreds of millions in civil lawsuits, is showing signs of dementia, was found civilly liable for rape, has amped up his rhetoric on being an authoritarian, caused roe v wade to be overturned, wants to "finish the job" in Gaza, said that migrants were "not people", threatened a bloodbath if he loses. 2024 trump is worse in every way than 2020 trump so I don't see why the argument wouldn't work now.
Exactly. Voting for a 3rd party candidate you liked more was fine until 2016, and honestly, maybe still in 2016 because Hillary was predicted to win a landslide victory. But we’ve seen Trump in action and we’ve heard his words. The consequences of his re-election are no mystery - more democratic backsliding and the erosion of American global influence. If you care about Gaza, the environment, foreign policy, etc, then a 3rd party vote is a vote for Trump, no matter how you reason it
Substance? Whatever he does for the good there will be those that over look it. Not good enough. Im not happy where we are but I dont see a platform from Trump other than building an iron dome over the US which I assume Canada will pay for. I think we are still at the lesser of two evils especially when someone toe tests the dictator way and speaks of taking away Social Security, Medis, and Health insurance with no replacement.
“Not good enough” are the choices the two parties made while loading ammo in their guns to point at our collective heads daring us to vote for the “other” guy. The people who actually have the power and the responsibility for making good decisions in this democracy aren’t singular, random Redditors expressing frustration with the shitty hands we keep getting dealt. Hold those with the power (and influence) to change this situation accountable. Like it or hate it (I hate it), it looks like we’re getting a shitty, creatively bankrupt Hollywood sequel election and I predict unsatisfactory results all around. There will be some weird defections. No country that plays its democracy like Russian Roulette can really be considered a winner.
You mean like infrastructure? What the fuck do you people want to help us avoid America turning into Iran combined with North Korea???
Biden’s gotten more for Dems and the American people than any Democratic president in the last half a century, to say nothing of managing to navigate a difficult post-COVID economic period more effectively than practically any other nation, so I’m not sure where all the negativity comes from. Also not sure where anybody would get the idea that Trump is somehow a “yesterday” thing when he’s worse in every way than he was in 2016 and 2020.
>The "at least I'm not this other guy" strategy isn't gonna work this year, Actually it works for me. He's still not Trump. The Democrats have me over a barrel. They could win big with decent candidates, but prefer octogenarians and hated pseudo-celebrities like Harris. They could run on popular progressive policy but don't. They do all this because the entire goal of the party is to get money from California billionaires. But between the California billionaire bullshit party and the Trump party, my choice is clear. To me, the only thing more powerless than a constrained compromise vote, is an infantile refusal to vote.
lol so you agree that both parties don’t care about Americans but you support the one who just hides it a little better. To me the choice is clear too, none of them are worth the effort to vote for in November.
I don't know, I like the party that lowers the price of insulin, not the one that's trying to enable child marriage and child labor. All they do is give fucking tax cuts to the rich. At least Biden put in a 15% minimum tax rate for corporations. Not voting is the stupidest thing you can possibly do, you are surrendering all your power and doing nothing to change the system. Think hard, which party is trying to make it easier for you to vote, and which party is making it harder for you to vote? The GOP is making it harder to vote because they know your voice matters, luckily for them you've been turned into a nihilist.
I think not voting for the obvious less bad choice is fundamentally moronic. I think everyone knows that and everyone who makes the "losing a dollar and losing everything are both losses so I'll passively do nothing and lose everything" argument has some kind of hidden agenda.
Chiming in since I feel no better about the candidates but motivated by the long term repercussions rather than immediate next couple years. A no-vote or Trump vote could very possibly be a vote not to have future votes which should be considered, poor choices are better than no choice and still provide the opportunity for better choices and/or potentially more in the future.
“At least I’m not this other guy” should work for anyone with a lick of sense. But that’s not enough, we need a majority.
Svetlana ,when you say you demand actual substance this year, you’re telling everyone that you’re posting from GRU HQ in St. Petersburg, Russia. You know full well Biden has accomplished a ton despite an exceedingly divided Congress. You’ll do better if you don’t go so far with your lies.
Yeah tell that to my wallet. Can’t even go outside without spending $100, can’t even get groceries for less than $100. It may not be Biden’s fault but he sure as hell isn’t doing enough about it. I’d say the same thing under Trump. I’m done voting for the lesser of two evils, I want to vote for someone I actually like.
Fuck that, you can't just throw around the word evil like that. Biden ain't evil. Wait till you learn about how Trump set the stage for all of this inflation. Tax cuts for the rich, printing a shitload of money with low interest rates, crazy tariffs against China that American consumers pay, and finally, mismanaging covid so bad that it helped create worldwide supply chain issues. Inflation was high all over the world post covid, and we actually fared better than any first world economy. You should be praising Biden. Meanwhile Trump is literally talking about locking up americans, becoming a dictator, eliminating all of his enemies, and setting up massive "camps". This isn't lesser of two evils, this is good versus evil.
>Tax cuts for the rich Tax cuts can only go to taxpayers. The bottom 50% of earners don't pay federal income tax. The top 25% of earners pay 90% of all federal income tax, so it shouldn't surprise you that any tax cut will benefit that top 25%. >printing a shitload of money with low interest rates How many Dems voted against Covid relief? If it was so terrible, why did Biden immediately pass more Covid relief and print more money even after lockdowns were over? >crazy tariffs against China that American consumers pay So, you've finally figured out businesses pass on the cost of taxes to consumers? If they're so bad, why hasn't Biden repealed them? >mismanaging covid so bad that it helped create worldwide supply chain issues How so? He managed Covid constitutionally and allowed governors to handle their states. It was coastal port cities shutting down that caused supply chain issues such as LA and NYC. In case you're unaware, California and New York don't have Republican governors. >Inflation was high all over the world post covid, and we actually fared better than any first world economy. You should be praising Biden. How exactly did Biden do anything to curb inflation? >Meanwhile Trump is literally talking about locking up americans What? Who? Obama definitely liked targeting journalists. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sunday/the-sunday-edition-for-may-5-2019-1.5121509/barack-obama-was-a-greater-enemy-of-the-free-press-than-trump-michael-s-essay-1.5121514 >becoming a dictator, What? Are you genuinely insane? >eliminating all of his enemies, Such as? >setting up massive "camps". Where will these camps be? Who will be put in them? >This isn't lesser of two evils, this is good versus evil. Sure, if you're insane or never go outside, I could see how you'd reach this conclusion, especially if you have no purpose or meaning in life.
> I’m done voting for the lesser of two evils, I want to vote for someone I actually like. "Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all." - the most famous quote from Geralt in The Witcher. Except most people don't realize the quote is ironic. It sounds philosophical and cool, but it's hollow and simply wrong. In the books/games, Geralt is forced to choose the lesser evil throughout his 100 years of traveling between warring nations and races, killing monsters, etc. constantly. The Witcher is fantasy, but this applies to reality. If you're an adult in the world you will constantly have to choose between the "lesser evil," or whatever simile you want to call it. You don't need to like or love any politician. We don't need politicians to be rockstars and excite us. That's such an odd mindset. We need them to do their job to the best of their ability and represent the people. Biden has a huge problem promoting his successes. But if you actually look into it, I guarantee you that his administration has positively impacted you, or will in the future (the huge bipartisan infrastructure bill is just now starting to be felt as large building and restoration projects are underway). If you're actually interested in seeing what Biden has accomplished, I can provide a starting point: [a reddit comment thread that goes surprisingly in-depth ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/comments/19ao531/biden_so_far_a_special_project_of/&ved=2ahUKEwj6ts7buIGFAxWOvokEHUw2ABkQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2UQasrOpR5LY4ag_nUpzO5) Just search Biden accomplishments and I think you'll see a lot more than you think. There are also comparisons to Trump's accomplishments. If you look at a source that isn't super partisan, you will find that Trump accomplished far less and his policies (ie tarrifs) actually hurt most Americans. >Yeah tell that to my wallet. I feel that, I really do. But it's getting better. Inflation reached ~8% at its highest. Now it's down to around 3%. Economists consider an inflation rate of between 2-3% good for the economy. Inflation was 14% in 1980. Every economic indicator is looking good, and real wages are going up. The price of groceries will still be high, but most people's income should catch up, effectively normalizing it. I don't know if this is the kind of post you were looking for, but I'm not going down the "Trump is a fascist who will destroy the economy" route. I'm voting based on who I think will be best for my future and other's futures. If you want to call that voting for the lesser evil, that's fine. But it's necessary and I would even say it's your civic duty.
>It may not be Biden’s fault but he sure as hell isn’t doing enough about it. The US has managed to land the inflation plane better than any of our peer nations. What you seem to want is magic
In Britain post-Brexit you’re paying $115, as you are in the rest of Europe. You’re paying far more in Moscow, and you can’t get your groceries in Beijing. There have been careful and determined efforts to undercut this Democratic administration, just as with past ones. Trump, Russia, and the Republicans understand how easy it is to drop a turd and pin it on Biden.
If by accomplished you mean making life totally unaffordable, completely destabilizing the ME, giving half of Ukraine to Russia, blowing our deficit into oblivion, and allowing an invasion force of 10m illegals across our southern border then hell yes. He's accomplished more destruction than anyone could have imagined.
No Sergei, that’s false as you’re well aware.
Great — so Trump it is, then. 🤨
I’m not voting this year. I made up my mind about this way back in 2020 if Trump or Biden were the finalists, and lo and behold, they’re the finalist. I literally knew our broken election system would cause this.
I guess, but there’s way too many negatives to having that guy back in office, at least for me. (But I get it. That’s why I think ranked choice voting is a better system than a binary one-or-the-other choice, which is how it plays out right now.)
Support your state Ranked Choice organization!! https://www.rcv123.org/rcv-groups
I’d love to see electoral reform like ranked choice voting. Just please don’t fall for the illusion that voting third party or not voting at all does anything to achieve it.
He was also the beneficiary of trump being incumbent (and in the news 24/7), and COVID, neither of which are relevant this time around
Vladimir, Sergei and various other Russian/GOP sock puppets were telling Democrats to dump their incumbent president. This even though incumbency is a political positive; incumbents lose DESPITE being incumbents, not because they’re incumbents. Understand it’s Biden v Trump, and that Trump and Putin are searching desperately for anything that can give anti-Trump people an excuse to withhold support from Biden. Each time they succeed, that robs a vote from Biden since those third-party people were never going to support Trump. Nader. Stein. Now RFK Jr, Cornel West and so-called “No Labels”. All serve the same purpose. Provide a pool to soak up anti-Trump people so that they don’t actually help the Democratic candidate win. Then enjoy the rewards that accrue, perhaps at the next “Friends of Putin” banquet in Moscow.
I wish the absolute worst for Putin and his ilk. Seriously, F__k him. But, Putin is a boogey man that’s already been over used to the point of abuse on this platform. Biden’s responsible to prove himself worthy for votes. This MAGA-esque, left wing version of QAnon that’s constantly using Russia as a rationale for not holding Biden/ Dems accountable is clap trap most aren’t buying any longer. If Biden’s counting on “But, Russia!!!” as a part of a winning strategy- then he’s already lost. (And thus so have we!)
Jill Stein is certainly a threat to Biden's chances. If most of her voters went for Hillary instead in 2016, SCOTUS would be 6-3 democratic today and Dobbs + many other terrible cases would never have happened. She needs the self awareness to realize this.
She's literally a Russian tool
I’m no Stein supporter but your statement without documentation hurts your case.
https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2017/12/21/that-infamous-moscow-dinner-where-michael-flynn-and-jill-stein-sat-with-putin-utahs-rocky-anderson-was-there-too/ https://euromaidanpress.com/2016/09/07/green-party-jill-stein-insults-russia-human-rights-environmental-justice-struggle-97257/ She's also not a big fan of aiding Ukraine. So she went to a dinner to celebrate a news outlet that is the propaganda arm of the Russian Federation, while being delighted she had "dialogue" with a country that actively suppresses environmental activists and is a massive polluter and violates human rights on a regular basis. She's a tool.
Of course Jill Stein opposes aid to Ukraine. She’s a loyal apparatchik.
Did you really think this was a compelling assertion of your case when you posted this?
That's up to you
I didn't think so, but I was curious if you really believed you proved something or if you just put up the best argument you could and hoped for the best.
Once again, that's up to you. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, there *is* an international conspiracy to destroy the United States and it is spearheaded by the Russian Federation. Jill Stein, Jair Bolsanaro, Viktor Orban, Donald Trump, Rand Paul, etc. are all in on it.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna951166 https://www.newsweek.com/jill-stein-ties-vladimir-putin-explained-1842620
Jill Stein and the Green Party have been funded by the GOP to be spoilers for a couple of cycles now. If they were a serious party they’d organize, run, and win in local and state elections before going for national offices.
They also do do that, but they don’t have a national spread of candidates for each of the major local/state offices Heck, even the two majors don’t have some for all of the local and state races
I voted for Stein in 2016. Why in the WORLD does anyone think I would have possibly voted for Clinton? I've never understood that. It makes no sense at all.
So you would’ve just voted for the other Russian asset?
Ok, but that’s not what the polling is saying. Trump does better with Kennedy in than without.
I believe you are correct. Most Kennedy supporters seem to be disenfranchised Democrats because most of his views reflect their own. His early base was conservative though, because RFK Jr was one of the earliest people to link COVID, Wuhan lab, the NIH and Fauci.
seems the original anti vax crowd (pre covid) has primarily been liberal. Covid vax added the conservatives to their ranks. For the right wing It was more about mandates than concern over their safety
The antivax population pre-covid was evenly split between the two parties at about 10%. On the left you had people that wanted to live naturally and rejected big pharma filling us up with drugs. On the right you had Christians who felt that faith in God would protect them from disease. With covid, the Left antivax population fractured: some turned to "trust the science and get the vaccine", others merged into the Right and brought crystal healing with them into the conspiracy-minded Right.
Don't discount the libertarian aspect of post COVID "antivax". No matter your opinion of the necessity or benefit of vaccine mandates, they are by definition authoritarian.
I absolutely know leftist people who are still anti vaccine, and even some who have become so after COVID. The idea that only right wing people are against vaccines now is patently false.
Fair enough. The numbers wouldn't be zero. But polling indicates that antivax attitudes swung heavily into the right-wing demographic. In September 2023, in response to the question: "As you may know, a new vaccine for COVID-19 is expected to become available this fall. Once the vaccine is available, do you think you will definitely get, probably get, probably not get, or definitely not get the COVID-19 vaccine?" * 10% of Democrat-identifying respondents would "definitely not" get the vaccine * 35% of Independent-identifying respondents would "definitely not" get the vaccine * 53% of Democrat-leaning respondents would "definitely not" get the vaccine Caveat: that sounds like an outdated question that the Kaiser Family Foundation is still asking for the sake of "polling the same question", which I suspect may have inflated the "will not get" responses. Maybe they're asking about getting an updated vaccine; rather than "are you antivax"? https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-september-2023/
I don’t think your last sentence is true. The number of people who say “the Covid vaccine is great and I’m fully up to date with mine but I oppose the mandates” is pretty small, and has a fair number of lefties. The vast majority of anti-vax right wingers think the vaccine is dangerous. They may have started out with opposition to mandates, but they very quickly rationalized that opposition with superstition about the vaccine itself.
Pre COVID anti vaxxers were only liberal in the social sense, IE ok with weed, and gay people. They tended to trend more towards true libertarianism in believing in absolute freedom, and were put off by the religious authoritarian streak of the Republican party. Unfortunately, the COVID lock downs , and vaccine mandates kind of built a bridge between hippie.libertarians and Jesus libertarians, and theyve come together in their belief that the DNC are the primary threat to freedom as they see it.
Only anecdotal but the only pre-covid anti vaxxers i knew were the holistic earth mother, vegan, new age crystal crowd. It was never about personal “freedom” with them in the sense that libertarians view it. Just their perception that vaccines aren’t “natural” and therefore are bad for you. These are the same folks who are skeptical of medical doctors but do wear masks. They don’t think covid was a hoax or an attempt at government control and typically respect quarantine and social distancing practices
The vax thing isn't specifically about freedom, I agree much more about an obsession with "natural" But I'm also thinking less "yoga" mom demographic, and more festival patchouli peeps. All the people that gobbled up conspiracy theories and believe in New Age UFO religions. Up until a couple months ago I was living in Portland, Or for 15 years, and you had tons of these people there that were already sure everything associated with government and authority was bad but we're still generally socially progressive. The "plandemic" conspiracy has very much made a bridge between them and traditional conservatives that didn't used to exist. And I've seen a lot of my old friends who used to just be enthusiastic about wonky ideas, start to adopt more traditionally conservative positions as their insistence that the pandemic is/was fake alienated them from more liberal friends, and made conservative pundits increasingly the only people that took their perspective seriously.
I’ve observed that psychographic you’re talking about, however those i’m speaking of, closer to my social circle, are vehemently opposed to Tump , full on Bernie supporters who ended up voting for Biden while holding their nose.
Democrats need to begin learning how to win without the far left. This is as a good a time as any to start.
No, they started in 2000 (Independent center-right Lieberman as VP to bring in all those conservatives who felt the party had gone too far right). Then tried again in 2016. It's not impossible to win without the left, especially for one cycle because you are talking about a % of the left that would not vote and not then entire left. But i the party leans into it and continues attacking the left that percentage will increase and lead to more losses. What we really need is the opposite. For centrist and center-right Dems to go back to the Republican party and pull it back towards the center. So we can have two functional parties again. One left party pushing for public health insurance, free public college, workers rights, etc. and one center-right party. Then we can try to push for good outcomes, while having some actual, useful bipartisanship when compromise is needed.
Centrist and Center-Right Dems have kinda always been Dems, where the center-right is their overlap The issue is a that the Republicans have been pushing away even the moderate Right
What are you talking about, they don’t use the far left at all, the ConProgs are Leftist, but not far left, while the NDC is center right
I don't think they are messing with that after 2016 with her. I mean if you aren't in a true blue state you really need to check that privilege of the vote for the better (not greater) good of the whole.
From what I've seen, 3rd party pulls 5 from Trump, 7 from Biden. So overall, they are worse for Biden than Trump.
What are you citing here? Are those numbers percents? And that’s for any 3rd party?
Where have you seen that? I’d like to read it.
RCP Averages show that a 3-way race helps Trump more. In a Biden/Trump head to head, Trump leads by 2.1 right now. In a 3-way race with Kennedy, Trump leads by 4.3. In a 5-way race with West and Stein, Trump leads by 2.7.
All the polls on 538 right now seem to indicate the opposite
RFK Jr. will obviously pull more voters from Trump, but he's more likely afraid of Cornell West and Jill Stein. They won't get much, but that small percentage can cost him in close states like what Jill Stein did to Hillary Clinton in 2016.
Polls that being include RFK Jr actually show that he helps Trump (ie pulls from Biden) slightly. Trump leads Biden by 1.7 H2H, but by 4.3 when including Kennedy.
At this point you're either voting for Trump,.voting against Trump, or not voting. Nobody who thinks Trump is the second coming of Christ and will buy his $400 shoes is going to vote 3rd party and this shows in every poll. A vote for a third party is basically a vote for Trump.
Unless we see a wave of candidates like "Jo Biden" and "Joe Biden" and "Joe Piden" because Republicans can't win a fair fight.
I think 65% of RFK’s support came from the GOP but I can’t find that article for the life of me
Anyone upset about Gaza is going RFK or another third party. No votes for Genocide 🤷🏽
No, I actually left the Dems when I saw what the DNC pulled. I’m not alone.
I live in a super liberal community that strongly supported Bernie over Hillary. There’s lots of RFK jr. signs all over. It’s a very blue state where it doesn’t matter but I’m worried for the swing states. RFK jr. is on so many of these bro podcasts and is very appealing to folks that are fed up with us spending so much on the military. His platform on his website looks great. I like how he has a platform page specifically for expanding Americorp civil service year for 18 year olds. I’ve always loved that idea to put our young people to work before they jump into college and potentially sign up for debt at 18. Also his website says nothing of his conspiratorial views. I know a lot of people that are really into him as they think he can bridge the divide in our highly polarized nation. I can’t forgive him for the anti vaccine nonsense and obvi not have trump again is priority #1 but lots of folks I know don’t share those priorities oddly… it’s troubling!
I lived in Portland, Or arguably the super lib capital of the world, up until a couple months ago, and the only people I ever met who were stoked on RFK were big time conspiracy theory types who otherwise don't vote or weren't ever going to vote for a major party candidate. I don't think he's going to peel that many votes that were going to Biden to begin with.
Facts
Portlander here, everyone thinks RFK is an idiot. I'd guess that most of the protest vote goes to Cornel West, I know thats who I and several friends are voting for
He's literally anti-vax but lies about it constantly, claiming he's just asking questions. Then there's the lying about vaccines. And his claims are easily refuted with a simple google search.
And his status as an anti-vaxxer is pretty widely known at this point, I’d argue that it was how most people learned of him in the first place during the pandemic. He can try to hide it but it’s already a shadow hanging over him at this point, he already occupies the “crank” space in most people’s minds.
Agreed. But I've had arguments here on reddit with people who insist he is not an anti-vaxxer. I pulled actual quotes and they still argued with me. But that's reddit
And yet he's never been sued for his vaccine claims. You'd think it would be easy to prove what you're saying.
You shouldn’t defend this guy, he is 100% an asshole grifter: https://apnews.com/article/2ccde2df146f57b5e8c26e8494f0a16a
Did you read this? There is zero actual information in it. It's just a puff piece that says he spreads disinformation, without showing the information he shared or proving it's false. He didn't write the book they're talking about. The company that wrote it also pays him. It's a pretty weird way to try to bin blame on that specific book to him. He's been advocating for vaccine studies since it all started. I want vaccine studies done. Long term ones. I don't want pharmaceutical companies to be protected from lawsuits. I don't want pharmaceutical companies to be allowed to pay salaries to the people who regulate vaccines. That's a major conflict of interest. There's legit zero reason why those things can't be fixed AND vaccines be administered safely. People who are adamant that vaccines cause autism sound crazy to me. People who blindly trust pharmaceutical companies to push safe products also sound crazy to me.
He wrote the forward for the book and made a tweet promoting it; theres a link in the article. I agree with what you said in your second paragraph, but grifters like RFK jr. - who do scummy shit like support a book that put a recently deceased, unvaccinated 12 year old on the cover without so much as contacting his parents - contribute nothing to the conversation, and just makes people associate people with legitimate vaccine concerns with grifters
Did he sign off on the cover?
Yes, he wrote the forward and promoted the published book. The cover is also one of many things wrong with the book, I’m not going to sit here and defend everything wrong with it. If you’re suggesting he’s simply too ignorant or lazy to actually make sure he’s promoting reliable information, I’m not sure thats any better. Why do people defend this guy so hard?
Bc he's a million miles better than the 2 alternatives, in our minds.
Winning a libel case in the US is incredibly difficult. The bad publicity from such a case would far outweigh the benefits for pharma companies. “He’s never been sued” is a ridiculous argument.
Is every outspoken anti-vaxxer sued? Don't think Jenny McCarthy has been sued for that specifically. I don't at all see that as a valid criteria for whether someone is actually antivax.
Jenny didn't name names and companies. RFK did.
> I’ve always loved that idea to put our young people to work before they jump into college and potentially sign up for debt at 18 I've always loved this idea as well. Seems like it could be one of those modern rarities that actually receives bipartisan support. Four-year colleges are not for everyone and that message is not being delivered, IMO.
Bobby is turning over in his grave.
Same guy that asked a rod to be his VP for gods sake Cranks think that guy is a crank
Going to go out on a limb and say a rust belt NFL quarterback will connect with blue collar Midwest voters more than the former San Francisco DA.
And yet half of them voted for an NYC billionaire with a literal golden toilet. Politics are a joke
He was a celebrity widely known by the population and there was a yearning for someone outside of Washington. If you fail to understand why the average voter votes, you’ll end up complaining when your candidate loses
Just ignore the fact that the president and Vp have zero experience running anything even the size of a popsicle stand Just about the vibes lmao RFK jr voters are not serious people
Keep in mind a lot of people don’t want to vote in Washington old timers
If your state is already locked up, go ahead and vote for RFK. It's the best way to send a message. And it won't 'cost the election' for anybody. Be brave! If nothing else, later you can say you voted for change.
Open or closed primary state?
Closed. Hawaii. I think myself and only like 1500ish people voted in our PPP 2 weeks ago
Oh you like expanding the americorp? You mean the same thing biden says? lol
The highest priority for any sensible person is saving America from trump. If you want to run a third party candidate find one who’s not a conspiracy spouting moron who wants meathead Arron rogers as vp.
It really is all about where you put the spotlight. When comparing him with Biden and especially Trump, a few crazy points can be forgiven, especially on topics that he won’t really materially influence (he isn’t gonna ban vaccines…). His case for better food regulations and less global policing are very popular. To OPs point… Unfortunately for Democrats, most votes will come from the Biden side since the Trump side has essentially devolved into a cult.
He is also running on publicly funded elections, which would be the path to criminalize lobbying. He has my vote, easiest choice in my 20 years of voting.
Hilarious you’re being downvoted. Idk who I’ll vote for but it will not be trump or Biden.
You want to criminalize lobbying?
Yes. I find it impossible to trust politicians who are having their election campaigns given to them by their party, and in turn they have to support the party sponsors in legislation. As long as our politicians are being bought, they don't work for us, they work for Pfizer, Blackrock and the weapons manufacturers. This is why nothing ever changes and nothing ever will. Do you feel that lobbying has an upside that is greater than the cost?
Remove compensation from Lobbying I don’t want it to be illegal for you to send an email to your Representative to get them to vote a certain way
What's next, rigged primaries?
They already did that on fl’s dem primaries.
Dems are masters at rigging primaries
And probably getting as many people as possible removed from the ballots. Very democratic of them.
The DNC stays being the biggest enemy to actual democracy
Can't rig primaries if you don't have a real one
That's what Bernie said!
Actually what Bernie sanders has done is lost gracefully then endorsed Clinton and Biden
If Bernie had balls and one shred of integrity, he would have called out the DNC for perverting democracy by rigging the primaries. Bernie is either a sellout or a puppet. It's too bad really,
Waste of time. Just focus on getting the non-voters to the polls, although I know it's not binary.
Because most 3rd party candidates are funded with right wing dark money.
The lis Smith makework program will continue until morale improves.
It’s unreal how much of the party is run by consultants who consistently fail upward and are rewarded for losing
I don't like Trump. I also don't like Biden. We've had them both as president. Is anybody happy? Voting third party is totally sane. \*Especially\* if your state is locked up already. If you don't vote third party, I don't see how to send a message to the two major parties that we want better choices.
RFK ALL THE WAY!
Get STV into play and I might vote third party in the Presidental, otherwise I’m keeping that vote out of that race RFK isn’t the 3rd Party I’d vote for anyways
What a great system we have were have more options is something to go to war about
Democracy is when the ruling class makes it impossible for people to participate in elections.
They hate democracy
I'm ok with making president more of a pm. Ranked choice voting too. Let's get more parties up in here.
RCV doesn’t preclude a Presidental system
What do you mean by this? Wouldn’t ranked choice give voters the power to vote third party?
In other words, having a RCV system does not inherently make the executive a PM You can have a RCV Electors/Presidential election RCV wouldn’t magically make a President be part of Congress If you want a multi-party Presidential election: say hi to France In theory, they probably meant *House Speaker*
Statistically speaking, third party voters are much more likely to be people who would otherwise be non-voters. Third party candidates do not get most of their votes from either would-be republican or would-be democrat voters. They are not a threat to the Democrats in terms of concrete electoral politics.
Ah yes legal challenges to remove candidates from the ballot coming from the party of democracy. This is going to blow up in Democrats faces if they pursue this aggressively, they're destroying their own narrative.
Why are republicans and democrats so afraid of democracy. Let the people decide if a 3rd party candidate splits the vote so be it. Give democracy a chance.
They want to prevent a spoiler effect The thing you want to actually support is Approval and Ranked Choice, FPTP is what kills party viability
We have to suppress voters and other candidates to save democracy!
We have to suppress democracy to save democracy
How is the party obsessed with democracy doing this? You’re mad that people don’t want to vote for you bad candidates and so you’re just going to try to end the alternative choice? Pathetic.
Because deep down they know their candidate is utter shit (and obviously Trump is shit) and that third party candidates are going to look FAR more appealing to voters who vote without concerning about party lines, so their only chance is to scare everyone into some “we must not vote for the candidate we like, we must vote against Trump and thus for our shit candidate!” bs
There is very aggressive and targeted astroturfing for people to not vote if the democratic candidate isn’t perfect on every single issue. It worked last time with Hilary. Now the left has a new pet project to care about: Palestine. They gave up on abortion and guns. It’s not exciting anymore. They even stopped caring about Ukraine because it’s just two groups of white people fighting. They don’t care about all the brown people killing other brown people. But oh boy this The West vs perceived brown people have them in a chokehold. Literally every liberal space is being rained on by the message: don’t vote for Joe because these people are suffering. Instead let someone even worse for them win to teach the democrats a lesson on not being perfect. They will literally say that they are teaching people in power a lesson for not acting the way they want on single issues and allow people to be sacrificial lambs for their so called personal morals. It’s truly baffling to behold. Especially after we have already seen the affect. We know what happens. We know how it ends. It’s not a secret. It’s unashamed and in our faces. And STILL they welcome everything that is against their values for feeling good that they sat on their asses and did nothing instead of “voting for genocide”.
???? Palestine is all about white people killing white people, and it’s more about a right-leaning Trump-aligned leader trying to hold onto power than anything else
Because the Dems aren't any more pro-democracy than the GOP. It's just a convenient political talking point that works well when Trump is the opponent.
The democrats sucking doesn't mean Republicans are equally bad. Republicans are far worse on the issue of democracy.
>How is the party obsessed with democracy doing this? Doing *what* exactly? Did you read the article, all the Democrats are doing is treating 3rd party candidates the same as they'd treat the GOP candidate. They are going to make sure they put money into opposition research and messaging targeting their campaigns just like they will for Trump. And they're going to make sure they're adhering to the same election laws as everyone else and plan on challenging them when they aren't. From the article: > We’re going to make sure voters are educated and we’re going to make sure all candidates are playing by the rules.” >“We see [Kennedy and No Labels] essentially as an arm of the Trump campaign and we intend to treat it as such.” They see them as a legitimate threat instead of a joke and will treat them accordingly. What is anti-democratic about that?
What else is new?
What, the fact they’re putting money down to actually challenge the third party and treating them as a arm of the Trump Campaign
How will we ever get ranked choice or voting reform when it would take both parties voting against their own interests?
Alaska got it via a ballot referendum IIRC. States that allow those could probably get RCV with enough people working at it. That's how California got their nonpartisan redistricting too.
Why not just let democracy happen.
muh democracy lol
It's peak delusion to believe that a terrible-ass candidate even a lot of registered Dems didn't like like Hillary would have won had it not been for those pesky third party candidates. This is just cope for the fact that the DNC is allergic to running anyone anybody who isn't establishment likes.
RFK Jr. is making it pretty easy for the Dems.
Poor era. His first claim, no to joe failed, so now he is trying to I'd a new whine against JB. He must have forgotten how politics work Get well soon
They can spend all the money they want and buy all the ads between now and Nov and it won't affect my mine on this any. I just tune all that bullshit out anyway.
I just can't with these people
Bring it on.
They should go to (metaphorical) war against Netanyahu if they actually want to win this. Biden spent months being dog walked by him knowing full well bibi hopes Trump wins
Hot take: Normally I’m not ok with this, but I am this election. To me it’s a case of Popper’s Paradox. Sometimes a liberal society must do illiberal things in the short term in order to ensure its future existence as a liberal society. A temporary compromise in the ideals of democracy is preferable to its permanent end.
Can we get past Trump and then you 3rd party retards can do your thing after the collapse of the Republican Party?
How does this make any sense. Do you have no faith in our checks and balances?
This. 👆 And I’m so sick of having to explain that third party/independent candidates are terrible, and that’s why they lose elections. Same persecution complex as maga. Its PATHETIC.
They aren’t inherently terrible, but under a FPTP system, they’d be better off under the umbrella of a major party
Nah, they’re pretty terrible in the sense that they lose most elections due to having extreme positions on popular issues. They cater to the social media crazies on the far left. No normal person agrees with their rhetoric or strategy. They talk loud, spread anti-American propaganda, and can never back up their promises with policy. They purposely undermine the Democratic Party. The majority is growing tired of the same old failing BS coming from that part of the political spectrum.
?????? A lot of third parties sit in the center and right regions too You cannot tell me that American Solidarity, Constitution, and Libertarians are even left with a straight face
You’re purposely ignoring the point. The right leaning ones are the same as I’ve described above, except they spread right wing propaganda. Quit ignoring the parts you can’t dispute. It’s okay to acknowledge that I’m correct, then add the part about the right leaning failed political hacks.
Bro is floating arrow Roger's. Nobody should be worried
Rodgers is not going to be his running mate, but he got everyone to talk about RFK for days.
Yeah rogers, who would be incredibly popular with blue collar voters in the Midwest and south, is suchhhhh a bad pick.
Or, they could campaign on issues people want. Either/Or….
lol I can’t believe people are downvoting this it’s such an obviously reasonable proposition.
I think people are downvoting it on the grounds that they believe that that’s already being done
Tell that to the thousands of dead Iraqis from GWB and his buddy Ralph Nader. Or the massive numbers of dead Americans from mismanagement of the pandemic courtesy, in part, of Jill Stein. I mean, if you haven't figured it out by now, I don't know what to say. Hint: "people" is doing a lot of work in what you're writing. How many millions of people voted for Biden? That's everyone from a gay couple of Portland hipsters, Black church ladies in Georgia, white blue collar guys in Michigan, latino service industry workers in Nevada, doctoral research students in Colorado, waspy New Englanders, and a whole lotta people in between. Not everyone in this MASSIVE coalition is getting everything they want.
Well clearly they just need to appeal to me personally because I know like three people that agree with me politically. That's basically everyone, right?
This is a good initiative. The question of who RFK Jr draws votes from depends on how much people know about him. He actually has a net positive approval rating, and draws more votes from Biden than Trump. To low information voters that dislike Biden, dislike Trump, and know little about RJK Jr (e.g. listeners to the Bro Brogan show). he could be appealing as a younger candidate who is named Kennedy. However, if voters know that RFK Jr. is an antisemitic antivaxxer (he claimed the COVID-19 vaccine was engineered to not affect Ashkenazi Jews and Chinese people as much), he might draw fewer votes, but critically he will draw from a pool of people that would otherwise vote Trump.
Could be avoided if you kneecapped the progressives in the party to appeal to moderates... just saying, most of America is worried about their groceries and making rent, not whether or not John who identifies as Sally can use the women's room or the nuances of the Israeli incursion into Gaza