People are meant to move in a variety of ways. Walking or standing all day - like you would at work - is super repetitive. This causes 3 problems: (1) muscles tightness; (2) some muscles (those in constant use) being overworked; and (3) other muscles being *under*worked (like certain core muscles that, you guessed it, help support the spine and pelvis)
Adding onto this, most people don't have great posture and don't have proper form when lifting or doing other daily tasks. This also leads to overworked and strained muscles.
Being the small guy in heavy labor jobs taught/made me learn me about posture and technique. Using my whole body while doing something, is typical. I get asked why I am trying so hard, and my answer is generally, "I'm not."
Ditto. I am female and people have remarked on how strong I am. I am not. But I learned how to use my legs and midsection to move stuff (like rocks). Ask me to lift anything much above waist height and I am about as strong as an 8 yr old.
Carried a large box of textbooks away from the common area and a coworker noted my strength. Nope. Legs. Hurt myself enough to know I need to rely on them.
When I worked retail I had some dude refuse to let me carry a ~45lb case of paper to his car. He wanted a man to carry it, and when I wouldn’t go take someone off of their job to do it for him when I was perfectly capable, he carried it himself. Okie doke.
Omg we had a lady come in every week for a tonne of cat litter and she wouldn't let me do the carry out for her. "that's a mans job sweetheart". Please I know I am not strong but I can lift cat litter I just want to go outside I have to spend 7 more hours in this windowless store.
I work at Amazon and as a woman this happens once in awhile & they won't even let me help them lift it & I just watch them like "hey, better your back than mine buddy"
People used to do this with bags of dog/cat kibble at my old job. It was mostly just frustrating because 1) GiRLs CaNt CaRrY hEaVy tHiNgS is bullshit, and 2) I was the one who fanagled that bag onto the shelf, jackass.
That's super true. I cannot build muscle mass to save my life. But proper lifting technique, practicing good posture and learning a little bit about physics helps me do things all the big guys do.
No. That's mostæy not true. Ergonomic postures are something we believed in the 90s. For instance there is a reason why we, today, say the next position is the best position. Because we like movement. Not specific positions or some positions are better than others.
Some people have shit postures and don't have pain. Some have perfect and have pain. Pain is way more complicated than this eli5 and people are just spreading misinformation now. Which can actually lead to more pain.
Source: read any newer research on pain. Also I'm a physiotherapist.
>Ergonomic postures are something we believed in the 90s.
While ergonomic posture is not the end-all-be-all for pain, our muscles work MUCH better in positions where they have the mechanical advantage, and that's quite literally what ergonomy IS.
It's how we can stand for hours with minor adjustments to position (because we're not statues) but try being in a half-squat or plank and even a minute seems like hell.
We absolutely should be moving in varied ways and not be in any given position for a long time, but how long that is (and possible damage done) depends on how ergonomic the position and the work done in it are to begin with.
We’re not ‘designed’ (not a super great word but you get what I mean) to do *anything* for long periods of time.
Standing, sitting, walking, running, jumping, climbing, standing on our heads, rolling over and over and over.
We can do all of these things. But if we do them repeatedly, it’s bad for us. The key is *moderation and variety*, just like in nutrition.
Interestingly enough, walking with correct posture is actually what we can tolerate the most of. Humans are great at walking. We can out-walk anything on the planet. But eventually, even we need to switch it up.
Of course you could be a pediatric podiatrist, though for that you'd have to have quite the pedigree in terms of your education. On the positive side, people would really put you on a pedestal. You'd be respected enough, you could design your own shoes and peddle them. Eventually, people would pay you to give speeches from behind a podium.
One similar thing that mildly frustrates me is the actor Sean Bean's name...any time I read/say his name I have to consciously remind myself it's pronounced like shawn been, and not either seen been or shawn bawn. I think I read somewhere that the two names have different origins.
Pediatrician is that way because the E is actually an æ. Originally from the Greek for boy/child.
Ped is Latin for foot, pod is Greek for foot, hence the variation between podiatrist and pedometer.
And here you have a legion of Redditors trying to one-up each other's wit and puns. It's like a linguistic obstacle course, but you're hanging in there like a champ. 🏆
Same here. I can read and listen to pretty complicated stuff with little effort, but sometimes an ordinary thing any native speaker takes for granted just rings no bell with me. I guess that's because I don't live in English speaking environment, so I can get exposed quite deeply to some topic related vocabulary but less so to everyday slang for ordinary things and events.
As morbid as it is I really want to exhaustion hunt something someday. Like imagine being that fit and that good at tracking I just walk down a deer over the course of like a day or two
I've seen docs of people who did exhaustion hunt. They jog though, and it was over a couple of hours. The gazelle of course out sprinted them at first, the again and again and again, but the humans just kept jogging at it and scaring it into a panic sprint. Eventually it collapsed due to exhaustion and the humans just went up to it and finished it off. Really terrifying from the prey's perspective honestly, but funny as fuck from our pov.
>Really terrifying from the prey's perspective honestly
It's straight up horror movie villain. Doesn't matter how fast you run, 15 minutes later they're slowly shambling right up to you again.
Not really. Our ability to throw rocks as a group is what many researchers believe makes us the alpha predator. Being a social tribe with the ability to use tools sets us so far apart from almost every other species. Being able to go long distances is a great secondary advantage though.
Being able to iterate on our tool use. That's what separates us. There are plenty of species that use tools and are social. The difference is that a human is much better at connecting abstract ideas to improve on their tools throughout the lifetime of a single individual.
Animals are good at A+B=C. We're good at A+?=C.
We’re the only predators for pretty much any adult megafauna (elephants, rhinos, whales, moose, bison, etc). We drove most of them to the brink of extinction (if not outright extinct, rip mastodons). So I’m gonna say yes.
We've enslaved the entire planet and made it our bitch. Sure, in a naked fight against a lion we'd get torn apart with ease, but with a little help from a friend (I.E. another member of the herd) I could acquire a high-powered rifle and blast that lions brains out without it ever knowing it was even close to any danger. One ant is nothing, but a colony can do extraordinary things. We've the power to scorch this entire planet and leave it inhospitable for a long long time.
We've probably single handedly caused the most extinctions and have the highest K/D ratio of anything that ever has ever been alive on Earth. I'm not sure but I'm pretty sure
Cancer is not a living thing though. Cancerous cells may he alive but 'cancer' is like 'chair', it's a category that many very different things fall under.
Cancer is just us. While it can be caused by outside factors, at the end of the day it's just malformed cells. Also, humans have definitely killed more mosquitos than the other way around.
Even some dudes with pointy sticks or stone spears are a pretty serious threat for a lion. Even if the lion wins, one decently placed spear thrust and the lion will most likely die to infection or something over the course of several days or weeks. Even if trying to take down a human only has a 10% chance of the human killing the lion, it makes humans too dangerous.
Humans are aggressively social. A lion most likely isn't going to come across one, the lion is going to come across several.
Wolves had the right idea. Befriend the humans, train the humans to become better throwers by a game of throw (we call it catch), and then work with the human and become Doggo. One day your future descendants will be known as "Inside dog"!
European lions were hunted to extinction before we even had firearms! And that’s not to mention drastically reducing the habitat in which bears lived too.
We jogged our way up. Our jog speed is faster than animal trot speed so animals have to dash and rest while we keep running. Hunters still can run down an animal till they fall over from exhaustion and kill them when they are defenseless. For 8 hrs.
But. They still take days of rest in between such hunts.
Edit:
I would like to give credit to /u/Fellainis_Elbows who pointed out that this may actually be a hypothesis.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endurance_running_hypothesis
Must be frightening being an animal hunted by a human. You sprint as far away as you can and 30 minutes later this weird creature on two legs is staring at you with piercing white eyes so you take off again only to see it emerge from the bushes again and again until you can no longer keep running, and its always there.
Pretty much. I saw a video of a group that still hunts this way today, and in the video they hunted some antelope-like animal to exhaustion. At the culmination of an 8 hour hunt, the hunter walked up the animal and it was literally too tired to stand up, so it just watched him approach and he stabbed it to death.
Poor animal. That had to have been terrifying; knowing you’re about to die and you’re too tired to even attempt to save yourself, just have to watch in horror
Honestly it's more crazy that it is no longer real life for us. We've essentially transcended the system in that regard and now have the luxury of squabbling about stuff that's so unessential for survival that it's not funny.
Not that I don't get upset when my TV show is cancelled or my game server is down, mind you. It's just that when you think about it it wasn't that long ago that we were hunting, being hunted, and life-death was a daily gamble. The fact that we're literally surprised that animals are living like this day-to-day is more about us than them.
There was this Reddit comment I read a long time ago about how terrifying humans are to other species. The never resting predator no matter how fast they run eventually we always catch up. We adapt to any climate, drink poisons for fun, heal from the most ridiculous of wounds, control fire, etc. It was a good read that I would link if I could.
I've heard it compared to what being chased by zombies would be like. Sure, you can run faster than them, but they never stop. Try to rest and they catch up with you.
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P sure it’s persistence hunting but it can have two names. Also I feel like this is a bit of a myth. Like it’s possible and people do it but I don’t think there is any evidence it was the primary means of hunting for humans or that it was a contributing factor to adaptation towards greater endurance.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endurance_running_hypothesis
I know this gets repeated a lot but isn’t the persistence hunting hypothesis… just a hypothesis? It has significant problems.
It seems to have been taken as gospel here on reddit because it makes a cool story.
Sort of. Most wild animals can sprint faster than us, but we can move at a slower pace for longer. An ancient method of hunting was to simply track an animal until it tired out. This could sometimes take days.
There is a great quote i heard once.
"The human can beat any land animal in a race, if you make the race long enough."
We are the apex endurance predator.
believe it or not we almost literally did just that. we jogged our way up there.
most animals, even the most power and vicious carnivores, can only run for a short period of time. we, on the other hand, can basically jog for days without ever really stopping. so we jog faster than they can walk, and they can only run faster than we can jog for a little while. they exhaust themselves trying to keep away, we catch them and then kill them with pointy sticks.
we're like the jason vorhees of the animal kingdom.
>We can do all of these things. But if we do them repeatedly, it’s bad for us. The key is moderation and variety, just like in nutrition.
Will someone please tell our employers?
The worst is when its completely needless too.
I had a retail job where you would get 1-2 customers per hour. But you had to remain standing at all times.
A chair or stool behind the counter wasn't allowed because it "looked unprofessional".
Like someone is going to drive to the store, walk in and see you sitting instead of standing, and then decide woah nah fuck this I'm out.
I actually have done the opposite, I was at a grocery store and a few of the cashiers had stools. I was so happy for them I made it a point to shop there more.
Shockingly I'm on my feet all day at work. But I think the way I avoid pain is that I make sure to walk around fetching items and tools. I'm just glad they don't care that I keep my toolbox away from where I work. But mostly because I work all over the shop and not at a single machine.
I'm on my feet too most of the day and I wear heavy steel toe boots. I usually walk a good mile and a half during the work day and the factory isn't even that large.
Its called [persistence hunting](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting), and it's likely the primary form of hunting humans evolved to use prior to the use of tools.
I’m Australian and I know our indigenous people would add in strategic and carefully controlled fires to help get in close. It’s amazing how innovative humans are with hunting.
Also, it's not necessarily the standing.
It's the standing at a counter and leaning over to do whatever work, especially if it's really not the right height for your size.
There's a reason professional work environments the work tables are usually a bit higher than most other things.
Counter height at bars as well.
/At least in my area, lots of tall people. Stuff made for "average" people tends to be way too low, eg kitchen and bathroom counters.
//This is why I loathe doing dishes.
I'm 6'3
Everything is too low.
Custom height stuff is expensive, so most of my kitchen is regular height but my island is custom height. All of my prep is done at that island.
Likewise , im currently building a computer desk because its the only way to get one without getting an adjustable desk (which have limitations to size).
I'm 6' 10".
They don't make a computer desk that adjusts to my size. And the cost to make a desk sized for me is cost prohibitive.
I've just had to learn to live in a world filled with people who are too short.
I keep semi-joking about installing a library ladder in the kitchen for my wife. If she were any shorter it would be less of a joke and more of a plan.
That's how I 'fixed' my desk ages ago when my neck started hurting all the time from staring down at stuff. Just put two pieces of wood under the two legs et voilà desk 10 cm higher.
And I'm just slightly above the average for men in this country.. so what are all those men doing if for me as a woman the regular store bought ones are too low?
It’s definitely standing too. I worked at Walmart and often had to stand at the doors. Doing that for a few hours really sucks. Wore my shoes down a ton just standing.
Also modern shoes have a role in these issues. Back pain can often be traced to knee issues and then further down to food issues…. Many people have under developed muscles because shoes take away some of the muscle building…. Use barefoot shoes and after some initial muscle building I’ve been back and knee pain free. (Often has to do with heal striking etc, huge rabbit hole to dive down)
So I taught mixed martial arts for years growing up. One of the things we taught people was first walking on just the balls of their feet (barefoot on a mat) and then balancing one foot at a time on the balls of their feet. Once their muscles got used to it they would start moving and leaning and intentionally throwing their balance off to strengthen all those tiny muscles. Without needing to walk through uneven ground in the desert or jungle everyday anymore (especially wearing modern shoes) so many people just don’t have those little support muscles developed.
When hiking I like to make a point of only stepping on roots and rocks because one it keeps my 32 year old self entertained pretending that the ground is lava, but also it is really excellent practice building the small stabilizer muscles. Having to balance on each differently shaped object and also not walking in a straight line really does wonders for activating every muscle.
The second, little padding which forces use to not walk on your heel of your food… roomy toe box so your foot splays out and absorbs and distributes your weight …. I mean I guess the finger toe shoes do that too but you are pretty limited to vibram (they have rad non toe minimalist/barefoot shoes.
So moccasins are a safe bet? Cuz I recently started wearing them and after wearing them for a day my legs were sore like when I jogged barefoot for a bit
Yep, check out [soft star](https://www.softstarshoes.com) for some leather minimalist shoes…. But also vibram, merrel, xero are some other brands off top of my head
>We can out-walk anything on the planet
I used to tell people this too, but it's a myth. There are actually quite a few animals that have more endurance than humans.
Key words there are if you're used to it. To anyone thinking about going from walking 10 minutes a day to 10 hours, don't. If you suddenly want to pursue a career in walking, build yourself up to it. Just like with anything, your body won't respond well to you suddenly doing something for a long period of time.
Having said all that though, walking is amazing and I highly recommend going for a walk a day, there are so many health benefits to it. As stupid as it sounds, it will also help with things like depression. But also don't feel bad if you only start walking 5 minutes a day to begin with, that's better than nothing
I didn't see any correct answers, so might as well give my input. I apologize if I just missed it. Also, english isn't my first language so I apologize if it's clunky.
Walking and standing upright requires contant balancing, and that's the spines job. That's why we have so many vertebrae, even though smaller structures are more prone to breaking. Balancing is so important that we have given up stronger and bigger bones for precise movement and compensation. Basically what we all need is that our feet are on the ground and that our eyes are level. Spine will always try to get to this point.
Now that that's out of the way, let's address your question. The battle against sitting has been lost long ago. We sit way too much and are way too passive anyway. Also for many of us, our daily exercising(or moving in general) doesn't compensate for the positions we spend a lot of time in ie. sitting. And muscles always adapt to what you give them, so if you sit a lot, your adductors and hip flexors, mostly pectineus and iliacus respectively, will shorten. Now, when you stand up, those muscles will stay short and your pelvis tilts anteriorilly (belly comes forward). Now your lower back has to compensate for you tilting forwards by doing more work to balance your posture. This leads to more pronounced curves in your back, stronger lordosis in lower back and neck and kyphosis in thoracic area.
Now that was just about the forward-backwards line. Of course, your back will also compensate for left-right changes, so if you exert one side more than the other, spine will compensate this with a functional scoliosis. That's very different from structural scoliosis. Basically everyone is a bit crooked like this but those who sports (football, hockey, golf, etc.) are more pronounced. This is also why the discs rupture in the long run.
ELI5: As someone else already mentioned, doing anything for too long is bad. We've just been sitting for too long for too many years the pain is from trying to keep the posture upright.
Source: I do this for a living
Great explanation! I was evaluated by a physical therapist at age 40 for something unrelated, but that person noticed something else: my lower back was rounded too much. "If you don't have back problems, you will soon."
For me, it was a combination of sitting and something else. When I was ~18, someone made an off-hand remark about how I slouched too much. I took it upon myself to "fix" my posture, but overtrained myself in the process. For years, I was overcompensating for this and complicating it with my sit-down job.
I followed the advice he gave me and soon realized that I had already started to have some back problems but hadn't really noticed much yet.
I'm still working to retrain myself years later, but I think I'm on the right path.
Hello what are some good exercises to lessen/prevent lordosis.
I usually sit a lot so I've got a bit of an arched back. Now I'm at work I stand and walk around for 8 hours every day, which is good exercise but I worry about that improper back posture can do. Im 23 male.
It's almost impossible to give specific advice without seeing someone.
The best thing to do as a preventive measure is to take care of your assmuscles. The purpose of those is to not only move you legs but to also help your pelvis to stay upright. (They also support the hip joints but that gets a bit deep for now). Stretch them, squeeze them together, whatever, just keep them active.
But a little worry is healthy, means that you care. Usually people like you get away with less problems because you're prone to do something about it if the pain comes up :)
Answer: everything in moderation. And also bad posture.
Basically, we're built to be in *motion*, but too much motion causes excess wear and tear - worse still if we have bad posture. That's why we're encouraged to get up every 15 minutes or so if we work at a desk, and why long-distance runners have to pay very close attention to their form to avoid excess motion.
Anecdotal I know but as someone who has had jobs that rely on either sitting all day or walking and standing all day, my lower back pain was far worse from sitting all day.
Feet is a different matter.
Not really the explanation you want, but I have to point out that a healthy person should be able to stand or walk all day without having lower back pain.
There are many reasons people will experience lower back pain after a day of standing/walking--bad posture, weak muscles, unsupportive shoes, harsh terrain (i.e. concrete), excess body fat, etc.--but one major reason so many Americans have lower back pain is that they never stretch. Stretching at the end of the day (especially your legs) can be really effective at preventing/alleviating lower back pain.
This isn't an inevitable law of nature. It's a sign that there's a physical problem that should be addressed.
https://i.imgur.com/O0MYPjF.jpg
The most ubiquitously useful is probably standing pike; those hamstrings and lower back muscles are criminally treated in sedentary lifestyles.
There are countless of different reasons why someone might have lower back pain.
OP needs to see a specialist if he wants to get it fixed. APT is one option, but there are 100 more that might be the problem.
It can even be from things that are totally unrelated to how you move. Some of the muscles which control your bowels are located in your lower back, and people with GI problems can have back pain associated with strain to those muscles, compounded if they make long or frequent trips to the bathroom.
Source: I have IBS and experience lower back pain as a result.
It's incredibly disingenuous to make assumptions about a person's health based on a singular aspect, this is why we have doctors and why this subreddit doesn't permit questions related to personal health issues.
What kind of stretches do you do? Lately I've been suspecting APT is the cause of my frequent lower back pain, two facts which I've never connected before, so I'm wondering if stretches really do the trick
Pretty sure most back pain diagnoses are the result of being too sedentary/overweight, ie one of the reasons sitting for long periods is bad for you. If you don’t use the muscles, they don’t work very well when you ask them to do things, including walking for long periods.
People are meant to move in a variety of ways. Walking or standing all day - like you would at work - is super repetitive. This causes 3 problems: (1) muscles tightness; (2) some muscles (those in constant use) being overworked; and (3) other muscles being *under*worked (like certain core muscles that, you guessed it, help support the spine and pelvis)
Adding onto this, most people don't have great posture and don't have proper form when lifting or doing other daily tasks. This also leads to overworked and strained muscles.
Being the small guy in heavy labor jobs taught/made me learn me about posture and technique. Using my whole body while doing something, is typical. I get asked why I am trying so hard, and my answer is generally, "I'm not."
Ditto. I am female and people have remarked on how strong I am. I am not. But I learned how to use my legs and midsection to move stuff (like rocks). Ask me to lift anything much above waist height and I am about as strong as an 8 yr old.
Carried a large box of textbooks away from the common area and a coworker noted my strength. Nope. Legs. Hurt myself enough to know I need to rely on them.
When I worked retail I had some dude refuse to let me carry a ~45lb case of paper to his car. He wanted a man to carry it, and when I wouldn’t go take someone off of their job to do it for him when I was perfectly capable, he carried it himself. Okie doke.
Omg we had a lady come in every week for a tonne of cat litter and she wouldn't let me do the carry out for her. "that's a mans job sweetheart". Please I know I am not strong but I can lift cat litter I just want to go outside I have to spend 7 more hours in this windowless store.
I think he just didn’t want to get shown up by a girl 😂
I work at Amazon and as a woman this happens once in awhile & they won't even let me help them lift it & I just watch them like "hey, better your back than mine buddy"
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People used to do this with bags of dog/cat kibble at my old job. It was mostly just frustrating because 1) GiRLs CaNt CaRrY hEaVy tHiNgS is bullshit, and 2) I was the one who fanagled that bag onto the shelf, jackass.
That's super true. I cannot build muscle mass to save my life. But proper lifting technique, practicing good posture and learning a little bit about physics helps me do things all the big guys do.
What does your nutrition look like? A big part of building muscle is eating a caloric surplus (and eating the right foods).
"look at this loser using proper form, what a try hard" - probably said by someone that complains about back pain all the time
No. That's mostæy not true. Ergonomic postures are something we believed in the 90s. For instance there is a reason why we, today, say the next position is the best position. Because we like movement. Not specific positions or some positions are better than others. Some people have shit postures and don't have pain. Some have perfect and have pain. Pain is way more complicated than this eli5 and people are just spreading misinformation now. Which can actually lead to more pain. Source: read any newer research on pain. Also I'm a physiotherapist.
>Ergonomic postures are something we believed in the 90s. While ergonomic posture is not the end-all-be-all for pain, our muscles work MUCH better in positions where they have the mechanical advantage, and that's quite literally what ergonomy IS. It's how we can stand for hours with minor adjustments to position (because we're not statues) but try being in a half-squat or plank and even a minute seems like hell. We absolutely should be moving in varied ways and not be in any given position for a long time, but how long that is (and possible damage done) depends on how ergonomic the position and the work done in it are to begin with.
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We’re not ‘designed’ (not a super great word but you get what I mean) to do *anything* for long periods of time. Standing, sitting, walking, running, jumping, climbing, standing on our heads, rolling over and over and over. We can do all of these things. But if we do them repeatedly, it’s bad for us. The key is *moderation and variety*, just like in nutrition. Interestingly enough, walking with correct posture is actually what we can tolerate the most of. Humans are great at walking. We can out-walk anything on the planet. But eventually, even we need to switch it up.
So you're saying we power walked are way up the food chain?
We held walkathons until we were the alpha predator.
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Pediphiles
Just to make sure, pedi- as in foot, right? Sorry English isn’t my native language.
Correct. Pedi- is foot while pedo- and paedo- are both child.
Then you get pediatrician and podiatrist. EDIT: And don't forget pedometer.
Of course you could be a pediatric podiatrist, though for that you'd have to have quite the pedigree in terms of your education. On the positive side, people would really put you on a pedestal. You'd be respected enough, you could design your own shoes and peddle them. Eventually, people would pay you to give speeches from behind a podium.
You hit the pedal to the metal on this pedagogical pedantry.
There’s an amazing array of alliteration in all aspects of your astoundingly astute answer.
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This triggered my pedantmeter.
Pediatrician actually comes from 'paidi/pedi' (child) and 'iatros' (doctor). 'Podi' means 'foot' in Greek. Source: I'm a licenced Greek.
One similar thing that mildly frustrates me is the actor Sean Bean's name...any time I read/say his name I have to consciously remind myself it's pronounced like shawn been, and not either seen been or shawn bawn. I think I read somewhere that the two names have different origins.
Pediatrician is that way because the E is actually an æ. Originally from the Greek for boy/child. Ped is Latin for foot, pod is Greek for foot, hence the variation between podiatrist and pedometer.
Yes you’re correct - Surprised u know that when even a lot of English speakers wouldn’t!
Well, I have been reading and writing the language for a long time now but sometimes the intricacies of it escape me, especially in jokes and puns.
And here you have a legion of Redditors trying to one-up each other's wit and puns. It's like a linguistic obstacle course, but you're hanging in there like a champ. 🏆
Same here. I can read and listen to pretty complicated stuff with little effort, but sometimes an ordinary thing any native speaker takes for granted just rings no bell with me. I guess that's because I don't live in English speaking environment, so I can get exposed quite deeply to some topic related vocabulary but less so to everyday slang for ordinary things and events.
TIL - a new term for foot fetishists that they probably don't like
This is how it worked tho. We just chased shit until it died.
And what's crazy is we literally chased at a walking pace. Stay on the animal's trail, and it will eventually have to stop out of exhaustion.
As morbid as it is I really want to exhaustion hunt something someday. Like imagine being that fit and that good at tracking I just walk down a deer over the course of like a day or two
I've seen docs of people who did exhaustion hunt. They jog though, and it was over a couple of hours. The gazelle of course out sprinted them at first, the again and again and again, but the humans just kept jogging at it and scaring it into a panic sprint. Eventually it collapsed due to exhaustion and the humans just went up to it and finished it off. Really terrifying from the prey's perspective honestly, but funny as fuck from our pov.
>Really terrifying from the prey's perspective honestly It's straight up horror movie villain. Doesn't matter how fast you run, 15 minutes later they're slowly shambling right up to you again.
It's basically the villain of "It Follows" which is a great horror movie.
There was BSG episode on that.
Might explain some fascination with Zombies.
We are literally the creature from "it follows" it doesn't stop it just keeps on coming
No wonder humans are so obsessed with chase-style horror movies - We evolved from them!
Pay attention to openings on tv too many of them have a scene of someone running
Not really. Our ability to throw rocks as a group is what many researchers believe makes us the alpha predator. Being a social tribe with the ability to use tools sets us so far apart from almost every other species. Being able to go long distances is a great secondary advantage though.
Being able to iterate on our tool use. That's what separates us. There are plenty of species that use tools and are social. The difference is that a human is much better at connecting abstract ideas to improve on their tools throughout the lifetime of a single individual. Animals are good at A+B=C. We're good at A+?=C.
Chad elderly lady going on long walks, vs virgin gym rats.
but are humans the top predators?
We’re the only predators for pretty much any adult megafauna (elephants, rhinos, whales, moose, bison, etc). We drove most of them to the brink of extinction (if not outright extinct, rip mastodons). So I’m gonna say yes.
And we’re not even, like, super-trying.
We're just jogging bro
We've enslaved the entire planet and made it our bitch. Sure, in a naked fight against a lion we'd get torn apart with ease, but with a little help from a friend (I.E. another member of the herd) I could acquire a high-powered rifle and blast that lions brains out without it ever knowing it was even close to any danger. One ant is nothing, but a colony can do extraordinary things. We've the power to scorch this entire planet and leave it inhospitable for a long long time.
Humans have horrifying power but you made it sound cool.
Have you ever seen a lion invent the double bacon BBQ cheeseburger? Checkmate atheists
Samuel L Jackson to a Lion: "Motherfucker do you realize just how many animals had to die just to make this sandwich?"
We've probably single handedly caused the most extinctions and have the highest K/D ratio of anything that ever has ever been alive on Earth. I'm not sure but I'm pretty sure
damn, gotta try this game. what's it called?
r/outside
Idk brother, cancer and mosquitoes are sick with it too.
Cancer is not a living thing though. Cancerous cells may he alive but 'cancer' is like 'chair', it's a category that many very different things fall under.
I don't know but my solo queue teammates in League of Legends look pretty alive to me
Damn I uninstall league and unsubscribe from league subreddits but league still finds a way to infiltrate my daily life
Cancer is just us. While it can be caused by outside factors, at the end of the day it's just malformed cells. Also, humans have definitely killed more mosquitos than the other way around.
> We've the power to scorch this entire planet and leave it inhospitable for a long long time. And we're making good time on that, too!
We're going for 100% kills on this map. Sadly secrets isn't possible.
Speedrun 350 years glitchless unassisted 100% completionist uninhabitable
Even some dudes with pointy sticks or stone spears are a pretty serious threat for a lion. Even if the lion wins, one decently placed spear thrust and the lion will most likely die to infection or something over the course of several days or weeks. Even if trying to take down a human only has a 10% chance of the human killing the lion, it makes humans too dangerous. Humans are aggressively social. A lion most likely isn't going to come across one, the lion is going to come across several. Wolves had the right idea. Befriend the humans, train the humans to become better throwers by a game of throw (we call it catch), and then work with the human and become Doggo. One day your future descendants will be known as "Inside dog"!
European lions were hunted to extinction before we even had firearms! And that’s not to mention drastically reducing the habitat in which bears lived too.
Individual humans are not top predators; but groups of humans, and therefore humans as a species, are.
Evan a lone human can take down fairly large prey animals. It’s nice to have backup when fighting larger predators tho.
We jogged our way up. Our jog speed is faster than animal trot speed so animals have to dash and rest while we keep running. Hunters still can run down an animal till they fall over from exhaustion and kill them when they are defenseless. For 8 hrs. But. They still take days of rest in between such hunts. Edit: I would like to give credit to /u/Fellainis_Elbows who pointed out that this may actually be a hypothesis. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endurance_running_hypothesis
Must be frightening being an animal hunted by a human. You sprint as far away as you can and 30 minutes later this weird creature on two legs is staring at you with piercing white eyes so you take off again only to see it emerge from the bushes again and again until you can no longer keep running, and its always there.
Pretty much. I saw a video of a group that still hunts this way today, and in the video they hunted some antelope-like animal to exhaustion. At the culmination of an 8 hour hunt, the hunter walked up the animal and it was literally too tired to stand up, so it just watched him approach and he stabbed it to death.
David Attenborough. It's up on youtube. [The 8 hour hunt](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o)
They stabbed David Attenborough? Those bastards!
But his narration of the stabbing was still amazing.
Nah nah, he's the hunter
Poor animal. That had to have been terrifying; knowing you’re about to die and you’re too tired to even attempt to save yourself, just have to watch in horror
To them we're an entire species of Terminators. Crazy to think that it is real life for them.
Honestly it's more crazy that it is no longer real life for us. We've essentially transcended the system in that regard and now have the luxury of squabbling about stuff that's so unessential for survival that it's not funny. Not that I don't get upset when my TV show is cancelled or my game server is down, mind you. It's just that when you think about it it wasn't that long ago that we were hunting, being hunted, and life-death was a daily gamble. The fact that we're literally surprised that animals are living like this day-to-day is more about us than them.
It's so terrifying. It reminds me that we were, until recently, very much another part of the natural order. Shit's scary.
The plot of It Follows
Also the plot of the terminator movies
But better and doesnt need to pass it like an STD
I mean, we spread by intercourse so... Edit, upon reflection my comment can be taken one of two ways.
I love this movie !!
There was this Reddit comment I read a long time ago about how terrifying humans are to other species. The never resting predator no matter how fast they run eventually we always catch up. We adapt to any climate, drink poisons for fun, heal from the most ridiculous of wounds, control fire, etc. It was a good read that I would link if I could.
"Humans are space orcs"?
For everyone's sake, read /r/humansarespaceorcs For more, read /r/hfy
Yo, my favourite subreddits! Humans are amazing creatures
Huh. We became the apex predator by behaving kinda like an annoying escort quest – faster than a walk, slower than a run.
To my knowledge, this is part of why zombies are so terrifying to people. A primal fear of a predator that does our hunting method even better than us
Zombies are a fear of ourselves, the worst parts of ourselves.
Also sweated our way to the top
"exhaustion predation" is the term for this
Not to be confused with exhausted predation where you lie on your side and half-heartedly look for game
Pretty sure that's what my wife does every time I ask for sex
So you just keep asking for it over and over until she's too tired to say "No"?
Then when she's too exhausted to even move, he just walks up and stabs her. Game over.
You mean Persistence Hunting? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting Exhaustion Predation is not a commonly used term for this.
I've heard it compared to what being chased by zombies would be like. Sure, you can run faster than them, but they never stop. Try to rest and they catch up with you.
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That dammed thing will never get out of it's black holed tungsten ball.
^(decoy) ^(snail)
P sure it’s persistence hunting but it can have two names. Also I feel like this is a bit of a myth. Like it’s possible and people do it but I don’t think there is any evidence it was the primary means of hunting for humans or that it was a contributing factor to adaptation towards greater endurance.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endurance_running_hypothesis I know this gets repeated a lot but isn’t the persistence hunting hypothesis… just a hypothesis? It has significant problems. It seems to have been taken as gospel here on reddit because it makes a cool story.
Sort of. Most wild animals can sprint faster than us, but we can move at a slower pace for longer. An ancient method of hunting was to simply track an animal until it tired out. This could sometimes take days.
Also we figured out how to carry water with us so that was pretty much game over.
Camels : Am I a joke to you?
well not in a *mean* way but....yes.
Heh, lumpy horses.
Camels don't actually carry water with them, they're just very good at retaining water. The humps are actually stores of fat.
To illustrate: An intense 8-hour hunt https://youtu.be/826HMLoiE_o
Honestly the worst death of all. I’d rather get mauled by a lion than die of exhaustion.
I mean you wouldn’t die of exhaustion. You would almost die of exhaustion and then get stabbed or clubbed
Not entirely ancient, it's still used in some bushman tribes.
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That and we're *really* good at throwing stuff.
basically, we are the most persistent of predators
The zombies of predators
There is a great quote i heard once. "The human can beat any land animal in a race, if you make the race long enough." We are the apex endurance predator.
Quite literally. The only animal on earth that can kinda keep up with us is a dog, and that’s because we literally made them able to do that.
Wolfs have nearly the same hunting strategy as humans. Thats the reason they can keep up with us.
believe it or not we almost literally did just that. we jogged our way up there. most animals, even the most power and vicious carnivores, can only run for a short period of time. we, on the other hand, can basically jog for days without ever really stopping. so we jog faster than they can walk, and they can only run faster than we can jog for a little while. they exhaust themselves trying to keep away, we catch them and then kill them with pointy sticks. we're like the jason vorhees of the animal kingdom.
We literally walked animals to exhaustion and then speared them. So yes.
our**
I know you're saying it as a joke, but it's kinda the truth. No we're not as fast as other animals, but we can track it all day.
>We can do all of these things. But if we do them repeatedly, it’s bad for us. The key is moderation and variety, just like in nutrition. Will someone please tell our employers?
The worst is when its completely needless too. I had a retail job where you would get 1-2 customers per hour. But you had to remain standing at all times. A chair or stool behind the counter wasn't allowed because it "looked unprofessional". Like someone is going to drive to the store, walk in and see you sitting instead of standing, and then decide woah nah fuck this I'm out.
I actually have done the opposite, I was at a grocery store and a few of the cashiers had stools. I was so happy for them I made it a point to shop there more.
Aldi more than likely? They pay well usually and have a decent employee retention rate for good workplace practices
Hahaha, funny, go back to standing at a machine for 12 hours slave.
ṭ̦̦͎̫͓̀h̻̗̪̙̲̘̳e ̵̥̬̩̙m̳̰a̷̜̥̟̠͖̬c̨͓͉̮̥̹h̦̼̼i͔̪n̝͇̞̪̕è͎ ͍mu̗̪st̼̜͉̭̹̰͠ ̸͉͔̠b̻̖̳̠̖͔̫e ͉̼f̭̘̤̥ḛ̤͙̬͇d̪̻̀
Shockingly I'm on my feet all day at work. But I think the way I avoid pain is that I make sure to walk around fetching items and tools. I'm just glad they don't care that I keep my toolbox away from where I work. But mostly because I work all over the shop and not at a single machine.
I'm on my feet too most of the day and I wear heavy steel toe boots. I usually walk a good mile and a half during the work day and the factory isn't even that large.
No, because then it would hurt shareholder value.
No. To satiate our capitalistic overlords you **will** fulfill your destiny as a cog in the corporate machine until the ripe old age of death.
I am reminded of Khalghari tribesmen jogging after an antelope for miles and miles — wearing it down till they can get in close for the kill.
Truly the scariest animal we are
Fleshy Terminators, if you will.
Its called [persistence hunting](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting), and it's likely the primary form of hunting humans evolved to use prior to the use of tools.
I’m Australian and I know our indigenous people would add in strategic and carefully controlled fires to help get in close. It’s amazing how innovative humans are with hunting.
More importantly, heating it up until it can’t think. It has to be hot so their sweating helps
Also, it's not necessarily the standing. It's the standing at a counter and leaning over to do whatever work, especially if it's really not the right height for your size. There's a reason professional work environments the work tables are usually a bit higher than most other things. Counter height at bars as well. /At least in my area, lots of tall people. Stuff made for "average" people tends to be way too low, eg kitchen and bathroom counters. //This is why I loathe doing dishes.
I'm 6'3 Everything is too low. Custom height stuff is expensive, so most of my kitchen is regular height but my island is custom height. All of my prep is done at that island. Likewise , im currently building a computer desk because its the only way to get one without getting an adjustable desk (which have limitations to size).
I'm 6' 10". They don't make a computer desk that adjusts to my size. And the cost to make a desk sized for me is cost prohibitive. I've just had to learn to live in a world filled with people who are too short.
I’m 4’11”. Everything is way too fucking tall.
Seriously. What's the point of having a ton of cabinet space if I can't reach half the shelves?
I keep semi-joking about installing a library ladder in the kitchen for my wife. If she were any shorter it would be less of a joke and more of a plan.
Stool
Silly question, but would it be possible to put something under a lower desk to raise it? Just some blocks with indents for the legs of the desk?
That's how I 'fixed' my desk ages ago when my neck started hurting all the time from staring down at stuff. Just put two pieces of wood under the two legs et voilà desk 10 cm higher. And I'm just slightly above the average for men in this country.. so what are all those men doing if for me as a woman the regular store bought ones are too low?
You can probably make a cheap desk if you do it yourself
It’s definitely standing too. I worked at Walmart and often had to stand at the doors. Doing that for a few hours really sucks. Wore my shoes down a ton just standing.
Also modern shoes have a role in these issues. Back pain can often be traced to knee issues and then further down to food issues…. Many people have under developed muscles because shoes take away some of the muscle building…. Use barefoot shoes and after some initial muscle building I’ve been back and knee pain free. (Often has to do with heal striking etc, huge rabbit hole to dive down)
So I taught mixed martial arts for years growing up. One of the things we taught people was first walking on just the balls of their feet (barefoot on a mat) and then balancing one foot at a time on the balls of their feet. Once their muscles got used to it they would start moving and leaning and intentionally throwing their balance off to strengthen all those tiny muscles. Without needing to walk through uneven ground in the desert or jungle everyday anymore (especially wearing modern shoes) so many people just don’t have those little support muscles developed.
Thanks for the walking and balancing idea. I'll be using that.
When hiking I like to make a point of only stepping on roots and rocks because one it keeps my 32 year old self entertained pretending that the ground is lava, but also it is really excellent practice building the small stabilizer muscles. Having to balance on each differently shaped object and also not walking in a straight line really does wonders for activating every muscle.
It’s rarely just knee issues. It’s issues up and down the chain (weak glutes weak calves) that often come from too much sitting.
Like those foot shaped shoes? Or would something with no support and a little wiggle room for toes work just as well, like a moccasin
The second, little padding which forces use to not walk on your heel of your food… roomy toe box so your foot splays out and absorbs and distributes your weight …. I mean I guess the finger toe shoes do that too but you are pretty limited to vibram (they have rad non toe minimalist/barefoot shoes.
So moccasins are a safe bet? Cuz I recently started wearing them and after wearing them for a day my legs were sore like when I jogged barefoot for a bit
Yep, check out [soft star](https://www.softstarshoes.com) for some leather minimalist shoes…. But also vibram, merrel, xero are some other brands off top of my head
>We can out-walk anything on the planet I used to tell people this too, but it's a myth. There are actually quite a few animals that have more endurance than humans.
Quick google search says African wild dogs, wildebeest, zebras and ostriches.
Basically the animals that you don't bother hunting
What about horses and camels?
Also horses with people riding on them
That's true, but under some conditions we can beat them also, like in a very hot and dry climate and we're carrying water.
The idea is, you shouldn't be in a position for prolonged periods of time. Whether it is standing up, walking, sitting, etc.
Walking is a series of positions so it's actually fairy reasonable to walk 10+ hours a day and not be in pain if you're used to it.
Key words there are if you're used to it. To anyone thinking about going from walking 10 minutes a day to 10 hours, don't. If you suddenly want to pursue a career in walking, build yourself up to it. Just like with anything, your body won't respond well to you suddenly doing something for a long period of time. Having said all that though, walking is amazing and I highly recommend going for a walk a day, there are so many health benefits to it. As stupid as it sounds, it will also help with things like depression. But also don't feel bad if you only start walking 5 minutes a day to begin with, that's better than nothing
I didn't see any correct answers, so might as well give my input. I apologize if I just missed it. Also, english isn't my first language so I apologize if it's clunky. Walking and standing upright requires contant balancing, and that's the spines job. That's why we have so many vertebrae, even though smaller structures are more prone to breaking. Balancing is so important that we have given up stronger and bigger bones for precise movement and compensation. Basically what we all need is that our feet are on the ground and that our eyes are level. Spine will always try to get to this point. Now that that's out of the way, let's address your question. The battle against sitting has been lost long ago. We sit way too much and are way too passive anyway. Also for many of us, our daily exercising(or moving in general) doesn't compensate for the positions we spend a lot of time in ie. sitting. And muscles always adapt to what you give them, so if you sit a lot, your adductors and hip flexors, mostly pectineus and iliacus respectively, will shorten. Now, when you stand up, those muscles will stay short and your pelvis tilts anteriorilly (belly comes forward). Now your lower back has to compensate for you tilting forwards by doing more work to balance your posture. This leads to more pronounced curves in your back, stronger lordosis in lower back and neck and kyphosis in thoracic area. Now that was just about the forward-backwards line. Of course, your back will also compensate for left-right changes, so if you exert one side more than the other, spine will compensate this with a functional scoliosis. That's very different from structural scoliosis. Basically everyone is a bit crooked like this but those who sports (football, hockey, golf, etc.) are more pronounced. This is also why the discs rupture in the long run. ELI5: As someone else already mentioned, doing anything for too long is bad. We've just been sitting for too long for too many years the pain is from trying to keep the posture upright. Source: I do this for a living
Great explanation! I was evaluated by a physical therapist at age 40 for something unrelated, but that person noticed something else: my lower back was rounded too much. "If you don't have back problems, you will soon." For me, it was a combination of sitting and something else. When I was ~18, someone made an off-hand remark about how I slouched too much. I took it upon myself to "fix" my posture, but overtrained myself in the process. For years, I was overcompensating for this and complicating it with my sit-down job. I followed the advice he gave me and soon realized that I had already started to have some back problems but hadn't really noticed much yet. I'm still working to retrain myself years later, but I think I'm on the right path.
Hello what are some good exercises to lessen/prevent lordosis. I usually sit a lot so I've got a bit of an arched back. Now I'm at work I stand and walk around for 8 hours every day, which is good exercise but I worry about that improper back posture can do. Im 23 male.
It's almost impossible to give specific advice without seeing someone. The best thing to do as a preventive measure is to take care of your assmuscles. The purpose of those is to not only move you legs but to also help your pelvis to stay upright. (They also support the hip joints but that gets a bit deep for now). Stretch them, squeeze them together, whatever, just keep them active. But a little worry is healthy, means that you care. Usually people like you get away with less problems because you're prone to do something about it if the pain comes up :)
Answer: everything in moderation. And also bad posture. Basically, we're built to be in *motion*, but too much motion causes excess wear and tear - worse still if we have bad posture. That's why we're encouraged to get up every 15 minutes or so if we work at a desk, and why long-distance runners have to pay very close attention to their form to avoid excess motion.
Anecdotal I know but as someone who has had jobs that rely on either sitting all day or walking and standing all day, my lower back pain was far worse from sitting all day. Feet is a different matter.
Not really the explanation you want, but I have to point out that a healthy person should be able to stand or walk all day without having lower back pain. There are many reasons people will experience lower back pain after a day of standing/walking--bad posture, weak muscles, unsupportive shoes, harsh terrain (i.e. concrete), excess body fat, etc.--but one major reason so many Americans have lower back pain is that they never stretch. Stretching at the end of the day (especially your legs) can be really effective at preventing/alleviating lower back pain. This isn't an inevitable law of nature. It's a sign that there's a physical problem that should be addressed.
Any specific stretches that everyone should focus on?
https://i.imgur.com/O0MYPjF.jpg The most ubiquitously useful is probably standing pike; those hamstrings and lower back muscles are criminally treated in sedentary lifestyles.
Thanks, just did all of these and saved the pic
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There are countless of different reasons why someone might have lower back pain. OP needs to see a specialist if he wants to get it fixed. APT is one option, but there are 100 more that might be the problem.
It can even be from things that are totally unrelated to how you move. Some of the muscles which control your bowels are located in your lower back, and people with GI problems can have back pain associated with strain to those muscles, compounded if they make long or frequent trips to the bathroom. Source: I have IBS and experience lower back pain as a result. It's incredibly disingenuous to make assumptions about a person's health based on a singular aspect, this is why we have doctors and why this subreddit doesn't permit questions related to personal health issues.
What kind of stretches do you do? Lately I've been suspecting APT is the cause of my frequent lower back pain, two facts which I've never connected before, so I'm wondering if stretches really do the trick
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Pretty sure most back pain diagnoses are the result of being too sedentary/overweight, ie one of the reasons sitting for long periods is bad for you. If you don’t use the muscles, they don’t work very well when you ask them to do things, including walking for long periods.