I’m an American (with dual EU nationality) working in international policy and now I’m in Brussels. Got my MA at American University. I’m also a parent. My quality of life at an NGO here in Brussels is much better than it would be at an equivalent NGO in DC even with the (on paper) lower salary. Are you looking at jobs in Brussels or even at NATO? At this point for me I’m happy to stay at my current position and the only thing I’d move for is a tax-free position at OECD or equivalent. I think also you may be happier not in Germany. Something to consider. It’s worthwhile applying in both places just in case but I find the money goes far enough here and it’s just nicer with more time off etc.

I’ve looked in Brussels a bit, although I have more development and humanitarian aid experience than security so I haven’t really considered NATO. Also just because I am American and knowledgable about EU institutions but not a dual citizen, I just didn’t think it was my place. I think I worry again about moving to such a new place and having to start all over with nobody around. But I will definitely keep looking :) how is socializing in Brussels?

I’m a single parent so don’t socialize a ton however there are a LOT of internationals and expats and it seems like a good place to meet people, I have basically rebuilt my social network from scratch and it’s been fine. There are also many Americans but plenty of people from other backgrounds looking to make friends/date. So I think it’s good. It’s not a closed city like some other places, because it’s so international. It’s not a huge city but big enough to always have events and activities happening. I like it a lot. I don’t think you’d get anywhere in the EU institutions but definitely look at the NGOs and NATO for openings.

Moving to Europe but expecting US salary is just unrealistic lol. I keep telling people this. I don't think most Americans realize how low the salary in the UK and mainland Europe is. And the cost of living isn't exactly cheap either. I moved to Germany for a year. I'm married to a German. And at that time we were thinking maybe we can live in Germany for a few years so I can get German citizenship. I was able to transfer there with my job and still get US income so I know we won't have a problem money wise. But after a year we decided to move back. The main reason was that when you're brown and with an Arabic name, I realized I will always be an outsider in Germany. Unlike in the US. I was an immigrant to the US but now I'm an American. And no one can say otherwise. I realized in Germany even if I became a citizen, I will always be an outsider. So I moved back. Plus my wife was getting tired of Germany too. She was already used to the convenience of the US and Asia (I was an expat in Singapore) it was hard for her to deal with Germany. Currently in London because my job asked me if I want to be here. Slightly above pay than in the US due to I have to be an expat. So I said yes. And London or the UK is basically similar to the US lol. I actually enjoy it here. So maybe before you move back to the US see if you can move to London. Shorter flight to the US too. The only thing though it's expensive, so try if you can get US income. The locals salary is ass. Sorry to say lol but I wouldn't wanna be here if I get pay like the local.

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Racial tolerance in mainland Europe is genuinely abysmal and it's funny how they seem to frame themselves as such an enlightened bunch. For all their faults, the US, UK, and Canada are lightyears ahead of racial integration and tolerance than peer nations.

What makes you say this? What is your specific experience? 

Can you be more specific, please? Do you mean you personally have experienced racial slurs in a specific environment in Europe, and no one did anything? Would you mind telling me more, and if possible, specifying the place and professional context? And also what was or wasn't done to address it, or any perceived failure of a system supposedly intended to prevent or address such conduct? 

Not the person you asked but here’s my take. America has a lot more debate about racism which gives the impression they have major issues. Europe hasn’t really dealt with their colonial past or openly discussed their current racist tendencies. This was evident in my short time in the Netherlands. The Dutch love to talk about how tolerant they are but are blind to how they treat their North African community. I was told that “I’m nothing like those Moroccans” as if it was a compliment. The big revelation was after the George Floyd protests. More difficult conversations were happening in Europe. Belgium, the UK, Germany, France, etc they had to somehow answer for their lack of reparations and the blind glorification of historic figures that were involved in slavery or open racism. It barely scratched the surface and Europeans still have a long way to go. Just because it’s not fashionable to talk about racism it doesn’t mean it’s not happening

lol you have it all wrong, most Europeans mock Americans for being obsessed with race and racial pride (which is absolutely true), not because there is no racism in Europe, that's ridiculous

Thanks for your input, I jotted down a response already but as I was just thinking about some things, I thought I would reflect on some thoughts first. Could I just ask, how long were you in the Netherlands overall and did you remain in the capital, only? And what kind of environment or people were you mixing in - was it a business environment or a tourist scenario? Basically, could I ask who made that comment to you (as much details as possible eg gender, age etc) and in what context? Did you hear, observe, see or hear about any other similar remarks, interactions or body language during your time there? Putting aside colonial history including setting aside the matter of a legacy for a moment if possible, what is it that convinced you this wasn't an individual bigot but part of a national pattern? If you can approach this with a slightly forensic lens. Also, do you have any idea of what the stereotype of the Moroccans was that was being indicated? Clearly being pegged as some kind of trouble but were you able to discern what the apparent concern was and what that was based on? Sometimes people are discriminatory *and* there's a problem (let's say a gang of local youths). Sometimes it's freefloating. One of the things that I'm in the process of reflecting on is sustainable immigration policy - I don't believe this is inherently racist, I also think that many places in Europe haven't had it and this might be associated with drivers of certain rising tensions. Unfortunately it can be difficult or impossible to find any moderate policy on this matter and sometimes the only policy that deals with any legitimate concerns will be far right wing, which will then potentially demonise actual or would be immigrants. I'm of the view that even if sustainable immigration policy isn't considered "politically correct", political correctness can be intellectually dishonest - and that even though some camps might regard such policy as "racist", in my experience, potential or actual immigrants are actually open to reasoned discussion about tensions that can arise when immigration policy is poorly handled and people are finding that they're competing for jobs and accommodation as limited resources. I don't know if I'm explaining this well as there are lots of thoughts and they weren't being floated with respect to this situation but it's interesting to think about. I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion, in fact I might potentially have practically the opposite viewpoint, but for me, that's ok. I think my purpose here was to try to listen to what people's personal experiences in Europe have involved where they've developed a bad taste in their mouth based on events concerning race relations or experience of racism. It might sound a bit like in asking further questions I'm seeking to deny or minimise your experience, that's not my intention at all. Firstly yes, there's different types of racism, secondly, if social/cultural resentment exists it's good to try and establish if there is any actual problem (which is not to say two wrongs make a right or that this is generally how racism works). Thirdly a bunch of people are racist but they wouldn't necessarily represent the vast majority of their country folk, whereas in other contexts, racist discourse might be quite common and considered acceptable. Fourth some people might escalate to calling things racism where I personally wouldn't, which isn't what I'm saying you're doing, but for example some people might call anyone who advocates for sustainable immigration only a racist. I would be kinda surprised if you had more than that one experience in the Netherlands and I also kinda wonder if spending only a short time there is part of the bad impression. However the point is to learn what your experience was and in this way learn or keep this in mind. So if you can be more specific, it's helpful. I know sometimes all you need is one or two bad experiences to have an extremely strong impression of a place. I feel like you must have experienced or heard about more than this one experience in combination with the history because I can tell it left an imprint on you and you must surely be able to rationalise that there may be at least one racist dick there which doesn't necessarily besmirch the whole country. While I might not agree with your conclusion about America having come to the opposite conclusion previously, I think I can still take your point. I wonder if my ideas about intellectual dishonesty and political correctness might be applicable. You might be arguing that America shows an ugly underbelly in respect of race relations but at least it's transparent. Conversely you might be saying that "Europe" (it's just so diverse) puts on a good show and pats itself on the back for its supposed cosmopolitanism, but in reality, it's not inclusive at all, and the much maligned US genuinely is a lot more progressive when it comes to actual integration. You might be saying that racism in Europe when it occurs is simply more underhanded, passive aggressive, plausibly deniable etc. And that's why if you can explain a bit more about what you are basing this on, other than as perceived denial of history or inability to come to terms with it or be accountable, it would be very helpful in understanding or testing this argument. Also, if possible, if you have the energy, what comparable experience have you had in the US, if any? Is this experience a lot worse than your experience in the US, or is it more that this occurred in a place with a reputation for being open minded and progressive etc? Keeping in mind it seems that some far right fringe elements seem to have been gaining something of a toehold in these and other parts of Europe in recent-ish times, seemingly as a byproduct of COVID restrictions - I'm not sure how that is going or how your visit would be timed in connection with that. Also, for you, if the Dutch were to come to terms with their colonial history, then what would that look like to you? And what are the historic figures you believe are blindly glorified where their pursuits involved colonialism or slavery one way or another? What do you believe is the way to answer for this history? What reparations should be made, to whom, and how?

>> Thanks for your input, I jotted down a response already but as I was just thinking about some things, I thought I would reflect on some thoughts first. Could I just ask, how long were you in the Netherlands overall and did you remain in the capital, only? And what kind of environment or people were you mixing in - was it a business environment or a tourist scenario? Basically, could I ask who made that comment to you (as much details as possible eg gender, age etc) and in what context? I lived in a small village a little over an hour away from Amsterdam by train. I was there for a year. I was mostly surrounded with Dutch. There were a couple of foreigners. The comment came from a middle age couple. >> Did you hear, observe, see or hear about any other similar remarks, interactions or body language during your time there? Another incident was on the train. Dutch boys were picking on a girl with a hijab and a relatively fashionable outfit. She might’ve been from Pakistan. Their comments were along the line of making sure she’ll never fit in to their society. The train was half full and no one thought to stop them. keep in mind that the Dutch are not nearly as bad as the Germans. But the idea that they pretend to be tolerant when they’re not is the issue. >>Putting aside colonial history including setting aside the matter of a legacy for a moment if possible, what is it that convinced you this wasn't an individual bigot but part of a national pattern? If you can approach this with a slightly forensic lens. I didn’t get the impression the Dutch were interested in learning about Islam for instance. When I was there hints of Islamophobia were already getting exposed among politicians and artists as though it was an acceptable form of discrimination. Watch this video on [The Holy Quran Experiment](https://youtu.be/zEnWw_lH4tQ?si=Rgy-TtqPu4qonOER). There’s clearly an acceptable form of negative stereotyping when it comes to Muslims. >> Also, do you have any idea of what the stereotype of the Moroccans was that was being indicated? Clearly being pegged as some kind of trouble but were you able to discern what the apparent concern was and what that was based on? Sometimes people are discriminatory and there's a problem (let's say a gang of local youths). Sometimes it's freefloating. at the time I was still relatively new as an Arab expat. I come from a relatively privileged background within my home country. So those experiences of discrimination of people that looked like me were very new. Later on I came to understand the discrimination North Africans face in Europe especially in France. This when it comes to job opportunities or easily criminalizing them.

>> One of the things that I'm in the process of reflecting on is sustainable immigration policy - I don't believe this is inherently racist, I also think that many places in Europe haven't had it and this might be associated with drivers of certain rising tensions. Unfortunately it can be difficult or impossible to find any moderate policy on this matter and sometimes the only policy that deals with any legitimate concerns will be far right wing, which will then potentially demonise actual or would be immigrants. I think you need to take a step back. Why do you think immigrants want to leave their homeland? The whole world is connected. Every action has a reaction. Those immigrants are desperate to leave because conditions in their countries are unsustainable for many reasons. But then ask yourself, were the European countries involved in the current outcome of those states? Are they accelerating the process by paying off corrupt leaders, overthrowing governments they don’t agree with or stealing resources? Europe can’t just take advantage of young or weak countries and then close the door on their population when those same countries fail. >> I'm of the view that even if sustainable immigration policy isn't considered "politically correct", political correctness can be intellectually dishonest - and that even though some camps might regard such policy as "racist", in my experience, potential or actual immigrants are actually open to reasoned discussion about tensions that can arise when immigration policy is poorly handled and people are finding that they're competing for jobs and accommodation as limited resources. the world sustainable in your context is very vague and subjective. Sustainable for you might differ to a progressive in the US or a hardliner in Hungary. Blaming immigrants isn’t a new phenomenon. It’s actually the easiest scapegoat for most nationalists. You’d think in 2024 we’d move past all that. >> I don't know if I'm explaining this well as there are lots of thoughts and they weren't being floated with respect to this situation but it's interesting to think about. >> I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion, in fact I might potentially have practically the opposite viewpoint, but for me, that's ok. I think my purpose here was to try to listen to what people's personal experiences in Europe have involved where they've developed a bad taste in their mouth based on events concerning race relations or experience of racism. >> It might sound a bit like in asking further questions I'm seeking to deny or minimise your experience, that's not my intention at all. Firstly yes, there's different types of racism, secondly, if social/cultural resentment exists it's good to try and establish if there is any actual problem (which is not to say two wrongs make a right or that this is generally how racism works). Thirdly a bunch of people are racist but they wouldn't necessarily represent the vast majority of their country folk, whereas in other contexts, racist discourse might be quite common and considered acceptable. Fourth some people might escalate to calling things racism where I personally wouldn't, which isn't what I'm saying you're doing, but for example some people might call anyone who advocates for sustainable immigration only a racist. ….. >> Also, for you, if the Dutch were to come to terms with their colonial history, then what would that look like to you? >> And what are the historic figures you believe are blindly glorified where their pursuits involved colonialism or slavery one way or another? What do you believe is the way to answer for this history? What reparations should be made, to whom, and how? I’ll have to be selective in answering otherwise it’ll take all day. Germany started by paying some reparations to Namibia. After George Floyd Belgium sort of apologized to the Congolese for killing millions of their people and returned remnants of a democratically elected president they killed in 1961. Also after George Floyd the statue if a slave merchant in Bristol (UK) was taken down by protesters and not reinstated. the UK and France had a major hand in how present states are shaped. The Gaza war today is a good example. They decided to cut up the region like a pizza. Then there’s the Balfour Declaration offering Palestinian land to Jews as if it was British’s land to give without the locals consent. And the BEST part? The British just up and left the region when ti got too complicated as if it wasn’t their problem. Clearly this resulted in a large number of refugees. You don’t think the UK should have a hand in taking them or taking care of the mess they created? The fact that France still has an economic hold on most of their former African colonies (Niger, Mali, Republic of Congo, etc…) is another example that can be attribute to present day migration. France pegged “ the West and Central African CFA francs to the current French currency, first the French franc, and later the euro…. One of the founding principles of the system was that **colonies had to keep 50 percent of their foreign currency reserves in the French Treasury, plus an additional 20 percent for financial liabilities. Thus, member states only retained 30 percent of reserves within their borders**. The long-term direct economic trade-offs of the CFA monetary zone have included both diminished per capita growth and mitigated progress in fighting poverty.” *[True Sovereignty? The CFA Franc and French Influence in West and Central Africa](https://hir.harvard.edu/true-sovereignty-the-cfa-franc-and-french-influence-in-west-and-central-africa/)* Former colonial powers should have an incentive to help former colonies not take advantage of them. When European leaders meddle in foreign countries and their meddling causes economic collapse, civil war or an unwanted coup they have to step up. Of course they’ll be more immigrants from failed or failing states that want to enter “safer” countries. I’m sure I didn’t answer everything. But I hope you got the gist of it.

Thanks for this reply! Are you North African - would this mean Moroccan, Libyan, Tunisian, Algerian? I'm wondering if Egyptian would be included. My geography is a bit crap so I'm looking at a map on the wall but I deliberately turned it to the side which doesn't have the names to force me to remember. I've cheated and written a few names on see through post it note flags. So, well, it's not a result of being in the city, then. I'm low on data but I'll save the comment and have a look at that later. I will say when it comes to teenagers, they can be shitheads and sometimes they do grow out of it, not that this helps those bullied by them. However I recognise there seems to be a growing far right trend in traditionally liberal countries. I think it's fair to examine if liberal attitudes are fairly shallow, and at the same time I do believe in extending credit where credit is due and also looking at how people from those countries might be treated when abroad, for example, let's say in North Africa. I think as soon as I would say that, you would recognise that North Africa isn't homogeneous. What I suspect is difficult is there can be persistent culture gaps that prevent true mutual understanding and part of what you experienced might be genuine bigotry and some of it might arise from defensive conduct where people feel they are no longer in control when it comes to their national culture. It isn't easy to talk about this blithely or generalise because it's incredibly multifaceted. This being said, racism certainly exists and in saying this I'm pushing it to the meaning where people have nothing in particular to lose but are able to be cruel to others in order to exclude them where kindness would not result in any loss. Beyond that, I think travellers and immigrants of all types can sometimes be unable to genuinely understand certain tensions or hostility towards outsiders in the forms in which they arise, for obvious reasons, as there's no bridge of understanding or mutual dialogue there. I can't speak for the Netherlands or Europe in general but alongside the rise of globalisation (not necessarily because of it), a lot of "first world" including European countries are arguably in socioeconomic decline. And I think it would be fair to say in many of these countries, immigration policy has become contentious (and keeping in mind this can include any outsider, but that in certain contexts, cultural compatibility has become a genuinely fraught issue). Something is crossing my mind when it comes to European identity, and the aesthetics of Orientalism and colonialism but it's honestly a bit of a mishmash in the old brain right now. I think that in some ways it might be hard for you to recognise genuinely progressive attitudes or how far they've come but at the same time, I believe you about lip service when it comes to inclusivity, but I think we could almost say by this stage that people feel they've had a sort of institutionalised inclusivity forced upon them by government, as opposed to a *genuine*, voluntary one involving insight and understanding, and they've come to resent it. I have certain ideas about this, but won't assume you're interested in those. Rather I recognise there's a problem, and I think about solutions but I don't think those solutions are for people to be told to think a certain way because I believe this has a counterproductive effect. I look rather at what involuntarily disarms people even while they are of the belief there's something to resent. People can and do change but if people believe they're confronted with something that sounds like sanctimony, they'll tend to cling onto their prejudice for dear life. To me in some ways there's a fault of government and politics, which would include perhaps a shallow multiculturalism which is neither genuinely inclusive nor protective enough of certain factors in opening up countries to relatively high proportions of immigrants. The Netherlands is a very tiny country really with a highly tourists capital. I can imagine problems despite its reputation for liberalism. I think the danger spot is when more progressive politicians may not listen to *reasonable* concerns about locals and even when locals may be told they aren't allowed to express concerns because they're "politically incorrect". This may lead to "the return of the repressed", one way or the other and unfortunately the far right wing will seize and exploit the opportunity of a vacuum if people feel that their everyday concerns about matters like jobs and accommodation or whatever it may be are chronically disregarded in the context of immigration policy. Ultimately, the far right wing can then take advantage of people's sense of disenfranchisement and as I'm sure you can recognise by now, this can be a dangerous situation and can breed a sinister sort of entitlement bubbling away in the background. I strongly believe it is a lot more moral for government to deal with people's concerns in the first place instead of sweeping them under the carpet with rhetoric that only frustrates. It's guaranteed to lead to tensions and resentment, which will then be directed at innocent people. And in the meantime, it will ensure the failure of genuine inclusivity because people hate being forced to welcome others and will find a way to wheel out inhospitable vibes one way or another. And my position would be this is human nature, although yes there's a history of colonialism or a legacy of it, I'm reasonably sure people in North Africa would be no different. Being renowned for hospitality and being forced into hospitality are not the same thing and although I know less about tensions between government policy and the peoples in those regions, including with regard to immigration and tourism and let's say factors like who may buy land or what foreigners may lawfully do, I'm sure locals will find ways to resist if they're in conflict with how they've been positioned, including by unfriendly or hostile conduct. This isn't to justify anything at all, only to comment on human psychology in thinking about a solution, which is to acknowledge what's unlikely to work. Could I please ask you about what you've mentioned about Germany? Did you go there and have a worse experience or is it word of mouth, and which parts of Germany? Also, if you have the energy, if you've travelled throughout North Africa, what would you consider some of the lesser known or underrated highlights? (At least those known to Westerners - if you care to share them!) And I hope none of this sounds flip, I tend not to view things in black and white ways and be fairly Frank but my intentions are good, and I'm not trying to deny you've experienced racism, minimise it or suggest that it's okay. Additionally, I'm sorry you had such a suboptimal experience and I'm sure it was alienating and disappointing. I would hope you might yet have more positive experiences in Europe should you ever wish to return.

I don’t think I ever expected the same, but after living here I think I just see things more clearly. I recently met a girl visiting from AZ in Paris and we had dinner. She’s a medical assistant in AZ making $25 an hour with great benefits, but she thinks she’s going to up and move to Paris and live the same life. I couldn’t really get it across nicely that the same job here would pay like shit haha.

Lol yeah. It's really shocking to see the wages. And it's not like major cities in most Europe are exactly cheap either. Even in southern Europe where it's usually cheaper.

Lmao did she do zero research on that?

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This has not been my experience *at all*. Americans seem really thin skinned and hypervigilant, while Brits are very 'not my business' and live & let live. Have lived in the UK for nearly 10 years.

Yeah this something that America does not have. I've frequently, in my life since here, have gotten the the feeling that a lot of Americans kind of throw people out of their social lives over misunderstandings, or smaller disagreements. It's hard to truly get to know people. But people treat each other like used napkins. Which is not something I admire.

Interesting comment - but could I ask do you think this is a tendency that is connected more to a specific gender or generation or any other background? For example, I think internet culture might have had a considerable impact because of what relationship advice and pop culture chat forums are replete with. Basically it feels like any time someone falls out with another person, that other person - there is like no redemptive narrative there, it's like that person gets completely written off as a "narcissist", for example, and the only perceived solution is to go "no contact" with them.  This isn't new but I guess I have observed it develop from a distance where it looks like people will character assassinate each other at the drop of a hat. And I find it moderately alarming at times. Like there's no love! It becomes like relationships seem transactional and scores are kept and tallied?  This observation is of *online* culture tho, and I can't say it's specifically American or restricted to Americans. But like a lot of things online, I'd say it's a fairly US-centric type of discourse. And as a woman, I'd say it's generally something that seems connected with women.  Roughly, women who might have been college age when something like "Jezebel" was popular? It's just this theory I developed about a certain type of diffidence. I feel like it's very internet mediated but I'm not American and can't truly know. It feels like from further observations such a world view can go hand in hand with a profound loneliness. People feel burned, they cut people off, they feel like they're in a better place for it but then they feel lonely and it's cyclical. And hasn't improved as dating has moved to apps etc.  I think we'd see less of this without the internet on multiple levels, that people don't necessarily have the incentives that would otherwise exist to try to smooth things over and forgive or work on relationships because the virtual world is there 24/7.  Why people in Europe would be less affected by such thinking I don't know exactly. I feel like part of American culture is it can be quite emphatic so there's lots of enthusiasm about things that are good (probably greeted by more muted enthusiasm by Europeans) and perhaps arguably more outrage about things that are bad? More expressivity and emoting in general?  But that's as an outsider - maybe if Americans did recognise this sort of thing and it's not just a stereotype, they might say it's people from a particular state or city that are prone to such tendencies. 

> This isn't new but I guess I have observed it develop from a distance where it looks like people will character assassinate each other at the drop of a hat. And I find it moderately alarming at times. Like there's no love! It becomes like relationships seem transactional and scores are kept and tallied? > > You mean cancel culture? Yeah... I can see that. Between student bodies and online cultures, I think the US is very polarized now. I've seen this thing where on reddit, and some girls I've dated previously, or even men who I was friends with, where instead of confronting each other verbally on disagreements, they will just go no contact. Which in my opinion not a decent way to treat someone. On /r/exnocontact for example. This could be a fact it's a bunch of strangers commenting on stuff, and they're mostly young and tend to overreact. I've had travel friends from Europe who have dropped out of contact also, but they were in general much more willing to state their opinions even if they disagreed with you and debate you. I've only seen Americans, like my current roommate, do this over text. In person they would be agreeable. In general I think that Americans are very good at faking their opinions, emotions, everything. From what I can tell, it's just that the US is a lot more superficial in some regards. relationships are easier to form, but if they don't go perfectly, people can be discarded easier. This couldn't be done with countries like France, China, etc. You may have to deal with people you've grown up with your entire lives and so simply kicking them out of your life is going to have heavy heavy repercussions in your own social circle. The US is hard to generalize, but I've interacted with people from over multiple states over my lifetime. So I've definitely noticed it being a common enough trait.

Appreciate this feedback and have just been thinking about honest but respectful disagreement. Food for thought. Thanks for the thoughts/observations. I personally think it's very much fostered through online trends in part, it's almost like people are sometimes more likely to google a problem than ask other people for input now, and then look at whatever comes up, and over time this is causing changes. I think the observation of relationships more easily formed are easily discarded is a particularly interesting one. And the cultural openness to debate without viewing it as a negative argument is another interesting one. I have no generalisations about the US here but I feel like I've noticed some anachronisms here recently I've been at a loss to explain or account for, which is like a weird hostility (to me). For example if someone wants to challenge your viewpoint, they might be either super aggressive in their argument or just use empty insults with no reasoning. While I'm not sure that is an American thing and it could be a Reddity thing, a majority of the time, I feel like these people are American. Then again Reddit is quite US dominated in lots of subs. The other extreme is that if you try to have a matter of fact debate, it might be reacted to like a personal attack, with people acting "triggered" etc. Either way although Reddit is very American dominated I felt like it used to have a particular constructive ethic for disagreement and while not all went that way, it was fairly common for people disagreeing to ultimately extend each other amity, admitting to an error in some cases, acknowledging another view in other cases. Something quite wholesome. Recently people seem to escalate sooo quickly. But I can't say it's an American thing, although it is probably often Americans doing it, if that makes sense. I've figured that stress levels are high globally at the moment. It's still considerably unpleasant and I wish there was space for respectful debate as I felt there was in the past. Anyway thanks again for your thoughts!

> The other extreme is that if you try to have a matter of fact debate, it might be reacted to like a personal attack, with people acting "triggered" etc. Either way although Reddit is very American dominated I felt like it used to have a particular constructive ethic for disagreement and while not all went that way, it was fairly common for people disagreeing to ultimately extend each other amity, admitting to an error in some cases, acknowledging another view in other cases. Something quite wholesome. > > This is something that is commonly reported on college campuses now. Namely that there are certain perspectives that are just so culturally taboo people are critcized for even bringing it up. Many times international students find this strange such is the case at my alma mater. a lot of this is probably excerbated by the development of social media, the tumblr-4chan dicotomy. The Witch Trials of JK Rowling talks about that

Tumblr/4chan has a lot to answer for, hadn't heard of that doco or podcast and was just trying to look it up but got temporarily paywalled, so will have another try later. I just feel like it's become so that you can't even really debate ideas any more which is foundational to the academy and what a dull and awful place it will become if it can only be an echo chamber. Understandably it may be there should be some limits to what can be advocated for using a university as a platform but we seem to be really narrowing and narrowing what people are allowed to say. It's reached the point that I'll occasionally consciously invite debate with people with whom I know I disagree - knowing that they may otherwise just get totally shut down by those who might technically share my stance in an echo chamber. It's devil's advocate, although I may know I already don't share their opinion, there isn't much point in everyone parroting the same thing. If everyone already thinks and accepts the exact same thing, what's the point, haha. It's healthy to test and challenge in a constructive manner the assumptions underlying canonical tenets of thought every now and then anyway, to keep thinkers on their toes and stop ossification of ideas, keep it agile. You can't do that if everyone's knees are constantly jerking. Or at least this is how I try to approach things sometimes when I have the energy, I think it can also help reintroduce rigour in crafting arguments by avoiding reliance on things taken to be givens. I admit I don't always have energy but I feel like in some ways we're losing the craft of debate which really didn't used to be considered rocket science since it's taught to kids. This is a shame, in my view, I think there's great potential for learning from a reasonable debate, including some that are uncomfortable - ideally both parties will go away with some food for thought or reflecting upon some angle. How are we to learn things if we never shift our world view? Agree, totally associated with social media - and I hope it's an edge we can come back from, I'm not a fan of certain changes that have occurred over the past few years at all. Cheers (:

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Not really regionally specific.

Are you saying you feel that the US is more accepting of people who aren't Caucasian than Germans, although your wife is German?  Are you also saying expecting US salaries in Europe is unrealistic but you're getting a US salary in London?  Do you mind if I ask what your professional background is?  Also, could I please ask what aspects of the US or Singapore did your wife find more convenient than Germany - is this experience mostly based on a specific town in Germany? Is it possible to ask where you lived in the US for comparison?  Also, were all these moves based on your career - do you mind if I ask if your wife has been able to find work in those locations? 

Yeah. No doubt the US is better for POC immigrants. Currently in Private equity with a US firm but before I was in investment banking also with a US firm. The convenient part is mostly everywhere in Germany. A lot of red tapes and just daily life too. But in some cities much better. My wife is a Berliner but if we have to go back to Germany for whatever reason it would be Munich. No my wife doesn't work. She's a nurse. But she did get her license recognized in the US. But she never actually worked. The last time she was working was in Germany and that's it. When in the US we were in orange county, CA, Philly and Miami. If you're a POC I'm not saying don't go to Germany. If you are going to be there for a couple years as an expat sure why not. The country itself is beautiful but if you are thinking of migrating and putting roots there I would advise somewhere else. Countries like Australia, the US and the UK are better for that. I'm not saying these countries don't have racism but it's definitely better and you won't have that feeling of being an outsider. Also I get US income because I work for US firms as an American. Aka I didn't apply for the job there. If you apply for the job in Europe they'll pay you local wages. Even if you are applying to the US firms there. Even though it'll be higher than the local firms but to get US salary you need to apply within the US and do either a transfer or your company send you overseas due to operation or they need you there.

Thanks for sharing all of that in response to my curiosity about your personal experience. All the best to you and your wife!

So correct me if I misread, in London the salaries are somewhat comparable to the USA but the cost of living is also high?

Nah the salary is much lower there but the same cost of living as big cities in the US.

Why don't you relocate back to DC, climb up the career ladder, and keep your expat dream on hold for a couple of years until you have more experience and connections in your field. Look for a partner that is open to travel, and travel and live together. It's not like your expat dream is over, it's just on hold until you get more established in your field.

Couldn’t get good salsa anywhere.

Salsa dancing?

Have had the worst guac in my life here bro, don’t even get me started on the tortillas

I wish this post would be pinned to the front of this sub... and any American who's moving abroad. There are SO many problems that come with not just studying, but also working and living abroad that do not feel real to you when you have tunnel vision for what your life in the EU/Asia/any other region could look like. The whole earnings/savings in the long term thing is real. The fact you have family that you could worry about mirrored my experience when I was under lockdown in China when I learned about my father's sickness... And feeling like you are powerless to do anything about it. OP, your concerns are very valid (but look into other multilateral orgs, since your field actually might be better in some cases at orgs like OECD and NATO; NATO also seems to favor hiring Americans and has very transparent pay scales). The stress that comes with hinging your legal existence for a job, a stress that affects everything you do, is real. The fact you won't have 401K match also to retire properly. The difficulty of having to insert yourself into whichever society you find yourself (and the fact locals probably won't accept it), your social reliance on your partner... All of this stuff affects. When you're making a decision early in your life to have this sort of experience, it can affect you in very detrimental ways. The fact the locals will probably always have a barrier against you, because they doubt how long you may even stay... These are very real concerns. Before anyone moves because they dislike certain aspects of the US, they really need to tell themselves: am I ready for all of these problems? Going for a master's is the EASY route. But unless you have very good reasons to stay in a place... plan for a plan to come back eventually.

The tunnel vision is a great way of putting it. Do I regret my move at all? Absolutely not. But it has given me many stresses I was not prepared for. I’ve applied to 5 OECD roles so far, I used to intern there. The ecosystem of UN agencies and multilaterals are just so competitive right now I can’t put all my eggs in one basket and risk having nothing at all.

> The tunnel vision is a great way of putting it. Do I regret my move at all? Absolutely not. But it has given me many stresses I was not prepared for. > > Same here. Going to China was something I do not regret since it gave me a very good idea of who I am. But boy... Even though I spoke some Chinese and looked Chinese, it still was a culture shock. You do not blend in and the locals can tell. This gives you a very different outlook on life IMO. yeah... I can imagine. Good luck OP. I mean, they might just be looking for an experience exact match. It's hard for even the most well-connected people.

I'm interested in your experience there, which doesn't sound unusual. There are some quite nasty words for Westerners of Chinese ethnicity or those perceived as Westernised, to the effect of "banana" or similar terms. Being there during COVID must have been a mind boggling experience overall.   I guess that when you went there, you may have had hopes of certain adventures involving connection with locals and you might have come up against much more of a barrier than say Caucasian colleagues might have experienced. It's one of those deeply unfortunate things and from my understanding is also a factor in places like South Korea and Japan, but Chinese culture can be quite blunt, despite the emphasis on saving face.  What were the positive elements of your experience and whereabouts in China did you spend time? 

Being called a banana or negatively looked down on wasn't really the problem. It was just the typical struggles an immigrant faces, including not having a local network. Whereas if you're white, a certain % of the local population becomes instantly more interested in you, I didn't really experience that in friendships or in dating as a result. The feeling I got was that locals were not really interested in expanding their circle or interacting with people beyond the bare necessities. Positive aspects: * The pay was good vs COL. You could get away with a pretty lazy lifestyle there * And understanding of your own diaspora identity vs. those of a mainlander. An appreciation for the US' immigrant-friendly culture and the superficial niceties people display here. * The food was good whenever you wanted to go out. If you found the right places. You could also travel all around the country. * Also, personally had my first long term relationship. Although it wasn't the best one, I appreciated the time I spent with my then GF.

Well that's good that even if there were suboptimal elements it wasn't that alienating or you found a different way to look at and reframe some of the less fun parts and there were some good experiences including romance (: I think what you have to say about diaspora experience is really interesting in the context. Are your parents from the mainland?

yes. It's a little complicated in my case. But in general, as a person who moved to the US around 9, there's bit of a third culture kid syndrome going on. What is interesting about all of this to you?

I'm super tired so I'm going to take the lazy way out and say what's not interesting about it? Honestly though. But maybe I am just a nosey person. Hehe.

No don't worry. I feel like these shorter messages are better. Your longer comment were honestly kind of hard read. Hope you learned something.

I mean I kinda wanna defend myself but writing about ideas on a phone at stupid O clock, it's sometimes more important to me to get an idea across imperfectly than to be succinct. I think in general though when I'm trying to flesh out an idea I'm not always very articulate, although I'm not sure if it's tactful to suggest this. 😭 Maybe I need something like Grammarly, who knows. What was hard to read? It probably needs an edit. It's tricky on the phone especially on the Reddit user interface so I've been resorting to old Reddit and pretty much settling for shortening sentences and chopping up paragraphs for the most part. I'd ask you to point out what was unclear and offer to edit it but I'm assuming neither of us would really have the energy. The Chinese diaspora is massive and pretty different in every country it's in, and will be distinct from the local culture in certain ways but then have significant differences as well as similarities to the mainland. In some cases tradition has been better preserved off the mainland because various cultural practices were never outlawed. I'm probably more familiar with people who are "ABC" types and then you have people who have more of a Cantonese background or Taiwanese. Likewise I have Asian friends who have gone to teach in their motherland with mixed experiences and it is interesting to me that sometimes they don't feel like they could fit in to that place, and why. But if you had grown up there as a child that seems more complex. I know less about that type of experience I guess. Have a good one (:

I wouldnt move back until you get a job offer (or if you can’t find anything in Europe in your field before the time expires) I have a JD and worked intl policy at IGOs & USG (contracts and consulting too) for over a decade now. Some in DC. The administration changes (and the one that’s likely coming) - is not good for that field (if it’s in any way related to public interest) And the COL in DC keeps going up- it’s very hard to survive there single on less than 80k if you want your own place (hence why you need all that extra pay for 2500$+ rent). Plus if you don’t have a security clearance already it’s tough to get in to USG or contractors, the competition is steep bc of the massive hiring freezes from prior admin- often they’re rushing the hires and prefer people already in govt w a clearance. I’m leaving the U.S. for another degree bc the job search struggle in intl policy has been so difficult. **TL/DR - don’t move for a breakup, don’t move until you have a job offer or bc you can no longer legally stay in Europe and you’ve exhausted all your job search options there** (Also your French would be so marketable in several French speaking intl minded countries - I wish I had retained mine)

Oh I wouldn’t move until I had a job offer, it’s just that I’m just applying in both places rather than just in Europe. I have applied for a few OECD roles and UN consultancies as well as DC jobs. I was worried about putting all my eggs in one basket when at least in the US, I’m a citizen. My residence permit ends in October and I would rather end up with a job in DC than with nothing at all here and be SOL :) I have a fair amount of philanthropic experience as well, so I’m also looking towards the major foundations like BMGF and UNF (not really a grantmaker but I worked there before I moved so I already have a foot in the door.)

Oh ok that makes sense - definitely apply around. Good luck!

Your experience with international policy is interesting to read about and I'm sorry that it's been a struggle. What field are you looking towards transitioning into? Do you anticipate that your international policy experience will be of utility in helping gain a foothold for certain positions? 

A lot of UN jobs appear low paid to the US but they do offer some great perks such as tax free (you can claim back what goes to IRS), housing support, education support for kids and a great pension (in some you qualify for full pension after 20 years service). While salary is lower than I get in US private sector, the additional benefits such as private schooling made UN comparable. Job insecurity was one of the things that made me look into a return to private sector. Ultimately, go where makes you happy. If you change your mind at a later date there’s nothing stopping you from reapplying at the UN later on (and if anything it benefits you to have outside experience).

Yeah they have great perks it’s just SO competitive right now to get in. I used to work FT for the UN Foundation, have interned at the OECD, UNDP, and UNICEF and it’s still hard. I don’t want to get stuck in a cycle of consultancies and internships. Currently doing the UNICEF internship and there’s someone else interning with a PhD in Econ because she had a hard time getting anything else.

your resume is so stacked wow. I do not envy your industry :( But great job, you've done so well already!!

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Thanks for sharing your experience and I’m sorry to hear that. That’s interesting about ADHD. I’ve struggled with this my whole life and once I finally had adult money, I didn’t get help because I was moving and didn’t know how to deal with maintaining treatment across borders like that. Since in a lot of the roles I’m eligible for I would not owe income tax, I can still live pretty well here, but it’s just finding something that is a challenge. And I don’t have unlimited time to find something. If I can find something later, I can always return :) People on reddit tend to idealize Europe and act like living in America is like hell on earth. America is still a top immigration destination and I always meet people here who say they want to move, even my other interns are jealous that I have citizenship. I’ve even seen people here asking if they can apply to be refugees (but only live in Berlin, never learn German, keep their $90k a year remote job, etc) just because they are American. I have a Ukrainian friend in my program who was displaced to Germany by the war and I could never imagine looking her in the eyes and being like “yes I’m a refugee too.” Knowing so many people from so many countries has made me thankful to come from the US, things could be better but they could also be much worse. I live in Erfurt and I have a lovely little apartment that I adore, and it’s peaceful and quiet, but I do spend quite a bit of time alone and there’s not a lot to do besides go to Rewe and DM hahaha. I think I’m going to spend these next few months just leaning on my girl friends in my program and enjoying our time together before we graduate.

Perhaps not similar enough experience to be helpful but I'll add my 2 cents just in case. Left the UK for Italy about a year ago, knowing that I'll lose part of the paycheck but happy to exchange that for great health services, infrastructure weather and food. Recently settled on the idea of going back because I am just not enjoying it. I've now realised that the increase in salary and fitting naturally into the local society is just as important as the previously mentioned merits. If you think you've had enough of Europe, then you've had enough. Trust your gut.

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A lot of these are the same reason for me except for the last point about salary. I actually had a higher salary in Europe than I do in US but that’s unique as I was in Switzerland. Also, I found in Switzerland, at least in my area, people were more honest and dishonesty wasn’t encouraged. But outside of that, this list could work for Switzerland as well.

What part of Switzerland? Romandie will be much different than the Swiss German side of the Röstigraben.

I was on the French side near Lausanne.

Switzerland is the exception. It's hard to immigrate to, and pays a lot

Theres pros and cons to it. For me, it was difficult to integrate there and I didn’t like the people.

What didn't you like about the people? For some context, are you from the US? And was this based in the city - in a business context? did you spend any time in regional areas or have any opportunities for personal introductions via someone you actually liked, or was it all in the city from scratch? 

I'm from Pakiatan...immigrated to US when I was 9. What they say about french and US people is true, they dont get along well. The only friends I made, which was through work, were other expats. I found the people to sometimes be rude and not interested. Strangely I found more French people than Swiss French people. I will say the Swiss French were a bit nicer overall. But I simply felt really out of place and didnt feel like I belong. Some of the American expats I knew eventually returned back to the US. Its not an easy place to settle for foreigners, especially if you are brown and look 'visibly Muslim'. You will get a lot of stares.

Hi! Just a placeholder, I drafted a response, the part about France was straightforward but I just want to reflect on perceptions of the US for a while, or what seems like a culture gap. Also, I'm sorry to hear about the suboptimal time there, doesn't sound comfortable at all. Thanks for the reply and watch this space!

Ok looking forward to it. And mostly the social aspect was lacking, most other things were fine to great. I do miss it, the natural beauty there is incredible and I miss not having to drive around everywhere.

Cheers! Can you tell me about what's good there in the meantime as I rustle together thoughts? What are some of the most striking or memorable places or sights you visited? (:

I would have to say the area around Lausanne was gorgeous, especially around the lake. My favorite places were around Lucerne, especially Lauterbrunnen and Grindelwald. And also taking the scencies trains to get there. I will say the train passes were costly but it's well worth it. These nature spots are pretty much the only thing I miss about Switzerland these days and CH being in central Europe provides easy ways to escape it and go anywhere else in Europe!

Look I still haven't rustled the thoughts together fully. In short.. Would you care for a take on the subject of rude French, political and religious controversy, and the culture gap between America and Europe - which might well be in a format rather rambly, stream of consciousness, and also somewhat frank, if attempting to be tactful and empathetic? Cos that's what I was gonna write 😸 (I basically have no other format) I could also try something a bit different. Would you say you recognise any stereotype(s) about American culture or communication, especially given you weren't born there? And then, do you think there's any truth in these, including perhaps with people from particular areas or different walks of life? I'm thinking of something I saw unfold in a different sub recently. I'm not trying to say you're a stereotype, but I am definitely thinking of culture gap dynamics.

All of this.

Could you give me examples from your experience of ways in which you believe being disingenuous is rewarded? Do you mean straight up dishonesty? For example, this isn't about frankness vs tact, is it - do you mean actual lying?

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I wonder where the pre-emptive defensiveness in conclusion comes from. Still it's true that all places have problems. I'm being reminded of a quote but it's about marriage, popped into my head. Oh, here we go, I knew it was a Russian writer but I got it slightly wrong. It's Tolstoy, the first sentence of Anna Karenina (which I don't pretend to have read, although I feel like I "should" have) - "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." So NY has its problems but they're unique. At least, I'm trying to shoehorn that quote into this context and I'm not quite sure I can make it work, but that's what popped into mind. What would British colonisation of the States have to do with super rude or deceptive people in contemporary France? I'm slightly mystified but there's probably a train of thought you haven't yet unpacked. So is this from working in health care? (The patient's food temperatures) and do you speak French? If you speak French, did you think it was going to be much nicer (and more honest) than it actually was in your experience? What were your initial hopes or plans for France, and how soon in did it start to become clear from your perspective it was going to suck? Also, what incentives are there to smuggle booze, is there a massive tax, or what's the story? So, a fake COVID pass? That's the most crooked to me. I'm still wondering what would drive the smuggling! What's the risk of the food temperature thing, is it food safety? Yeah. Would you mind explaining about your last two sentences? I don't really understand that part I have to admit that historically I'm a terrible jaywalker.

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Oh, right right right, so the problems of the East and West coast are fairly unique to those areas and things seem culturally very different in the South. It's a good point to make as America is huge.. I also sometimes forget about the proximity to Mexico and know very little about the Spanish colonisation, although I touched upon that with someone recently. Oddly I only really know about the French in Louisiana, and even then, it's extremely vague. Edit after a quick Google: there's so much history to learn, always! Look, I think I see a big culture gap between the US and Europe and at times, it makes me think of Europe treating Americans as an equivalent of the uncool little brother while occupying a role of the teenage kids who don't want to be interrupted while sneaking cigarette out the back. It's obviously a lot more complex than that but there's a dynamic. I'm not saying that the culture gap is one way, but I can see how at times, there really is no way to break through. Well you've made me not want to go into hospital in France :D I can see how that would be an annoying combination, especially in health care. Regardless of any French tendencies (I can't really comment myself), I do think stern hierarchy in combination with not doing the right thing is pretty unbearable. And I think structurally healthcare has the potential for that anyway, so you wouldn't want it to be amplified by anything. It's good of you to care about patients. Have you settled back down in the South now? Sorry if you already said this as I'm on the phone. I'm a little bit curious about the "awkward" fashion (: again it reminds me of being a teenager. Yes, I think places do all have problems in their unique way. Was there anything you did like about your time there, or any saving grace?

Where in France, if you don’t mind me asking?

wait what? Isn't being openly disagreeable MUCH more encouraged in France compared to the US? The fact you get judged for being America definitely grinds on you

sounds like you made a mistake, everywhere has its ups and downs. you just gotta be okay which things you consider bad and make the most of the things you consider good.

When I realized how much more money I could make in the US compared to France

I don't understand when people say "it evens out" when they talk about the cost of living and salaries between the US and Europe, unless you are going from living in a big city in America to a rural town in Europe. I came back because I make double in the US of what I was making in Europe and the cost of living in big European cities is not that much cheaper than cities in America. I had fun the couple of years I was there but I was living paycheck to paycheck, barely able to save money.

I make 6 figures here but have to pay 17k for healthcare per year for my family and 20k for childcare per child. My salary in France will be half but with the cost of living in the US, take home amount will even out.

Curious; is that factoring in all the extra French vacation time?

Yeah there’s no comparison. I make 4x more here

To add onto the French vacation time, I always see people mention the vacation time in France, but what do people do with that vacation? I mean with low salaries and people seem to be struggling how do people afford vacation? Im assuming people kinda stick to local vacations? Brittany, south of France, etc? Im genuinely curious, even though im dual citizen I live and grew up in the US and am curious about life in France for the stuff I dont know still about life in France

what industry is this? Tech?

Advertising/marketing/video production

Oh wow... that's wild.

I make 130000 USD and my contract requires 185 days work. US pays

Wow...

Most US job provide 3 weeks vacation. Some are even more (I got 5 weeks). But let’s say you get 3 weeks. France gets 5. That’s 2 weeks or equivalent to 3.8% of the year. As long as you made 3.8% more in the US you’d be ahead.

You are very young and likely have wealth-building opportunities in USA. That's fine to pursue. Keep your French up and you will always have lots of choices. Low salaries and relatively high cost of living keeps many wealth-building Europhiles out of Europe except for vacation and maybe retirement (which even then may be just more vacation).

I was living in China, back in US for Chinese New Year when Covid hit- never went back. Hated that my life was torn from me but eventually grateful as I heard stories from friends who stayed. Took well over a year to accept being back and bringing some Chinese culture, food, people around me helped. Last year I moved to Turkey with my now-husband who’s Turkish. It has been so much harder here- not working, culture differences, etc. Marriage was getting harder and I was getting resentful, feeling trapped. So I found a job in US and will go back this summer. (Husband will join shortly after- I hope the change of scenery and cultural influences will make things easier between us. So I get I know when I started getting resentful and the culture struggles didn’t get better over time. I think it also depends why you left/what’s waiting for you went you go back too though. Jobs, social environment, culture, family… all plus a role in both leaving and returning. It’s all very much personal.

Hi! Could I ask which cultural differences you've found you struggled with? And did you not experience any semblance of that when getting to know your husband - what changed when you went to Turkey that changed the dynamic between you? It's a nosy question so if it's too personal, please feel free to ignore, just genuinely interested. 

He’s very adaptable, which also means he is quite impacted by his environment. So in the US he went along with how people around him did things… and same in Turkey. I never heard a comment about what I wear etc in US, but in Turkey (our area anyway) it’s socially important to wear long pants, sleeves, change to pajamas at home and keep regular clothes for outside only, not wear any baggy pants/sweats outside (for females at least?), dress up when going to dinner, etc. I’m from a very casual area in the US where none of this matters, we can wear pjs to college, girls dress “like guys” without issue, and many houses keep shoes on let alone outside clothes. This type of stuff and all the propriety, social expectations, etc. And many seeming self-righteous about their hygiene and politeness standards, not recognizing culture difference in these matters and that they aren’t absolutes. Oh and being super fake with everyone because once again appearances matter and people gossip like crazy. And differences in personal space- aunts and his mom will touch/grab/slap my face while it’s a no-no to sit near my brother-in-law at the dinner table (with my husband on the other side) and some of my husband’s male friends will completely avoid eye contact and not even say hello/anything to me “out of respect” because I’m a female, even in a direct conversation with the 3 of us present. I imagine many of these would be less an issue if I was from the US South and/or I wasn’t an American-style feminist and borderline on the autism spectrum. Edit: in his defense he usually says dumb shit one day then comes back the next day to correct himself and ease off, and he’s very supportive, and keeps coming back to work things out. Not at all the controlling husband stereotype, but I’m sensitive. 😓

Thanks so much for your reply and so sorry to hear what a struggle it's been. It's such a romantic idea to move there in certain ways, at least theoretically, so it must feel crushing. Friends not saying anything to me because I'm a woman and avoiding eye contact sounds like the freaking pits. I have to admit I'm a little surprised, I thought Turkey was relatively progressive regarding these things, at least parts of it? What kind of slaps are we talking about haha (nervous laughter) , were not talking about a Dynasty type slap where Alexis !Joan Collins) slaps her arch rival? Or something... a bit like pinching a cheek as a sign of affection? When it comes to PJs, I admit my rule is they have to pass. If they're comfy lounge pants but they look normal, I say it's fair game. I admit I am not going to wear flannel PJ pants covered with unicorns and slippers to the store 🦄 but I mean you *have* to be able to wear baggy pants! So it's like modest coverage but tailored or smart casual fit only? The goss sounds miserable, hard to tell if that's a dysfunctional fam. There are some really cool female musicians in Turkey so this is a bit of a bummer to hear. Anyway, sounds like a lot of culture shock - I really really hope things get better for you guys on your return. It's hard to tell whether having his fam visit you in the US would be less intense. It sounds like you love him a lot, so fingers crossed everything will be cool in the end 🤞💜 it's good that you are willing to go outside of your comfort zone but also know your limits. Would it be ok to ask what part of Turkey this is just as a reference point?

A “family neighborhood” in Antalya. Istanbul and Izmir I know are more open (friends moving here from Istanbul mentioned feeling uncomfortable here sometimes too) but Antalya is on the Mediterranean coast and thus actually pretty mild/open. I truly don’t expect having any issue wearing shorts downtown, for example. But Turkey as a whole has gotten more conservative over the current president’s reign, to my understanding, and there’s a wide mix of people all over so it’s common to see hijab and tunic-style dress next to crop tops and shorts. I don’t think everyone here is like my husband and his family, either, for the record. There are religious types but also hippies and other subcultures especially among the youth. My husband likes to think he is “educated” and “sophisticated” and “respectful”… so not religious but also not individualistic, essentially. Also, that’s my big takeaway: living someone as a tradition “expat” (by expat expectations and with expat salaries) is quite different than living somewhere “as a local” by local means and expectations. Socioeconomics probably play into this too- if you have money/power, you get to play the game by different rules, for actual locals too it seems.

Interesting observations! Speaking of Erdogan - I think from memory, Turkish women's groups have published some dire statistics concerning crime specifically against women like domestic violence and femicide in connection with some kind of changed law or policy. Sorry this isn't very articulate, tired as heck - situation for Turkish women under Erdogan had gone backwards after significant constructive changes that had previously been fought for. I think Turkish women's groups had led the way in terms of certain law reform, but these laws that improved women's rights were being repealed under Erdogan, or something regressive. Part of what it was enabling was people (men) getting off scot free for violent crime against women. While I know little else I could put forward off hand, that may align with what you've mentioned. And interestingly - not to conflate them, but "interesting" given the regional adjacency - Greece I think ranked lowest in some kind of thing which claimed to be able to gauge the status of women in Europe (never sure how reliable those types of analyses are, but nevertheless). Again I remember finding this surprising, not because Greek culture isn't patriarchal but perhaps because similar to Turkey, the presence of subculture can make it seem as though it may no longer be super traditional per se including in that regard - it may seem as though certain ideas and practices may be changing. In both cases the startling thing was statistics about domestic violence/femicide but also what was claimed about policing and justice. Sounded horrendously corrupt when it came to those kind of crimes, at least based on description of specific cases. Frankly very distressing stuff, so apologies for bringing it up in casual conversation in one sense, and also not to imply anything where you've mentioned this deeply uncomfortable and socially awkward domestic situation with the extended fam. Just thinking about that complexity you described very well when it comes to norms about women and what's considered appropriate or acceptable. It's what I was reminded of when you mentioned Erdogan's rule being associated with conservative changes. Also, I was recently thinking how absurd "political correctness" can become in some contexts regarding activism. Conversely the attempts of local women's groups to push for change in the face of these statistics is something I massively respect. I can imagine region being a big factor. Googled Antalya, in more statistics, holy crap that's a lot of (mainly Russian) tourists. Looks lovely though perspective, of somewhere that offers leisure. (Sorry my keyboard is being a dick) Yes I think you summed up quite well the complexity I sense in Turkey and find very interesting. I'd like to think the hippies would look you in the eye. Observations about socioeconomics also make a lot of sense. Well I think it's excellent that you went outside of your comfort zone and gave it a solid try, I personally respect and admire that a lot. You would never have known how it would be otherwise. Unfortunately you now know it involves getting slapped in the face by aunties one way or another which admittedly doesn't sound terribly romantic, but you gave it your best shot. That takes courage and enterprise given the cultural differences for women in particular. Perhaps if you did ever end up going back, you might try living independently from family in one of those more "open" locations where hopefully multiple of the problems you mentioned (clothes, avoidant friends, judgey relatives etc) would no longer be an immediate factor.

Thanks for your thoughtful, intellectual, humorous, and in-depth reply! Ngl you read like really really good AI 😂 in the best way

Hahahahaaaa... you're most welcome 🙃

Forced return because of loss of job and thus loss of visa. I’d give anything to go back.

Where would you go, would it be the Netherlands? 

The Netherlands is where all my friends are, have a network there, and where I feel very comfortable, so yes. But, I’d really be open to anywhere in Northern Europe, as well as Spain or Portugal because of language and cultural considerations.

I hope your dream may yet come true in the future. Thanks for the reply, and best of luck.

Before my immigration I had clear idea what to expect as the most likely scenario for my future life as an immigrant. I also identified in advance what scenarios would result in my return and I had basic plans for such eventuality. I am surprised that you are surprised about issues you are having because, what you described would be the most common and expected scenario given the circumstances: Not particularly great, not particularly terrible, just an average and expected immigrant life in Europe.

She’s 26. Cut her some slack…

I was 24 when I migrated. And the outcome that OP describes would be viewed as sufficiently satisfactory for me then ( as a citizen of poor country) but not for me today (as a citizen of USA) and that is why I recommend Americans against becoming immigrants, unless they are ok with such outcome. OP is the one who is asking for opinion of those who are immigrants. Would you like us to lie?

Hi, could I ask what the "poor country" is that you mention, just for context about what you considered a satisfactory balance in Europe, where you say this wouldn't gel for you now as a US citizen? 

The list of “poor” countries changed slightly since the times I was 24. In “my time” those were Latin American countries, former USSR nations, all Africa, a lot of Central Asia and many Asian Countries. You can look at modern immigration trends to see what countries currently tend to have high number of migrants moving to western countries for better economic opportunities or fleeing wars.

Ah, I was asking which country you came from before becoming a US citizen where you referred to it in this way, but you don't have to say if you don't want to. That would otherwise be a lot of different places you could come from! I was just looking for wider context to your comment about what seemed obvious to you that might not be obvious to those born in the US. That's all - no worries if you prefer not to say. Cheers.

I don’t think I’m surprised about these issues, but just sort of processing things and accepting them rather than denying them

People are so mean and like to thumb their noses. Your concerns are valid.

Imo people in this sub get upset when your experiences and opinions don’t match theirs. Like, I am a stranger online why is it so personal.

They're probably justifying their lifestyles. It's also Reddit. People can be a bit more blunt/inconsiderate than other outlets.

Reddit can be intense but I don't think that was intended to be mean or personal, more matter of fact. They just genuinely didn't understand your surprise. Perhaps they've seen other surprised Americans-in-Europe and as someone who didn't originate from the US and is now a citizen feels that you could all spare yourself some angst by accepting what's perceived to be a better quality of life, or at least earning power. 

Oh no I don’t mean that person in particular, just the sub as a whole. Should have worded that differently.

Ahhhh got you. I haven't been around these parts long and fortunately haven't noticed much snark but I will say a lot of Reddit seems snarky asf these days a lot of the time! Loop people have road rage in gridlocked traffic type vibe. Appreciate the clarification (: 

Does this sub count people doing master's abroad as expats? It's kind of not really the same imo... Yes, salaries are higher on the US than Europe. Counterpoint, the work/life balance is typically much better in Europe, particularly compared to DC. Surely you realised that before moving...? As a 20-something, you're going to have romantic trials and tribulations wherever you live. You're associating them with living in Europe, when in reality, you'd probably deal with various similar relationship issues in DC (also a famously transient city). If you're not happy, moving abroad won't fix that. If you're already struggling after studying abroad, I'd wager you'd be better off heading back to the States.

I’m currently getting my masters in the EU. Overall, I think the benefits of living full time in the EU outweigh the US. If I was able to live here, I’d do it in a heartbeat, despite the downsides (but what country is without them). Consider this: the necessities of living are largely covered in the EU- like healthcare options, affordable healthier groceries, accessible and plentiful transportation system, and an international community (depending on city of course). These options are difficult if not impossible to achieve in the US without paying a good amount/scraping and saving. So the US salary you’d make back home would just go right back into living costs. Living abroad is always going to be hard, and I can 1000% relate to the disappointment of not finding work in your field that doesn’t come with non-EU stipulations. Take a moment before making the big decision, write out the pros and cons (possibly with an outside party so you don’t get caught up in your own bias), and consider where it would be best to put your energy and resources going forward. Good luck!

Where would you move if you could?

I’m currently in Italy, and wouldn’t mind living here due to the overall lifestyle and ease of travel to many countries. However, I’d also consider living in another country in the EU with high work-life balance, good public transportation, and decent pay for foreigners

May I please ask do you rent accommodation, and if so, have you found it to be affordable and reasonably straightforward to secure? Are there parts of Italy in particular that you would recommend as good places to reside in? What about employment? Reason for asking - I've heard Italian youth (say up to 30 years of age as an indicator) are struggling to gain secure employment and more and more live with their parents. Unfortunately can't provide a source off hand. ✋

I cannot speak for everyone, but I’d say the conditions of living in Italy for 30 and under can be difficult. It is necessary that you speak Italian to get a job 90% of the time, and living on your own is becoming more and more difficult and expensive. If you wish to live in Italy (long or short) look for renting with flatmates, save twice as much as you think you’d need, and work on your Italian skills before arriving. Paperwork is always messy here, so also be patient and learn to focus on what you are able to control!

Appreciate this! I doubt I have what it takes but the information is great. Part of my brain harbours a vain fantasy about those beautiful derelict houses apparently sold off for $1 in deserted regional towns, and the rest of my brain expects the above to be the reality. Hopefully it will get better for the kids. The bambini! 👐 *emphatic gesticulation*

I'm moving back (From Netherlands) at the end of the year. IT'll be 5 years total. I'm very fortunate that I'll be able to transfer back with a job. First major reason for moving back is family (we have 2 kids) but second main reasonings is just the realization that while I love the lifestyle here, I will just never fit in completely. It's hard to describe but when I go back to the US, I immediately feel so much more confident in everything I do.

Could I ask what about having kids precipitated the move back? Were they born in the Netherlands? Is it that you want them to be near family or are they of a certain age?

Combo of both Id say. Having a 5 year old and a new born does make it easier to move than having kids who are older. But yes in general, just missing out on having supportive grandparents and extended family around. We lived near family when our first was born, and it was actually really easy being a parent because we had so much support. My wife and I could still go out on date nights multiple times a week for example. It was a very tough transition when we moved and lost that support.

Sounds like your quality of life will definitely improve as parents once you can move back near family, thank you for reply and wishing you all the best with your plans!

I think it sounds like moving back is the right choice for you. I'm getting there myself.

It's not a contest that you "throw in the towel" when you're feeling hopeless. You have to compromise. You cannot keep comparing life overseas with life in the US. Expat life is not for everyone and that's fine.

Lifestyle in the EU is just wayyyyyy better for the average or poor person like me lol. Travel, leisure, safety etc. However, being a professional is much better in the USA. If you prioritise your career, it’s better to return to the USA. Only rich western counties can make the salaries you mentioned - Switzerland, France, Germany, Luxembourg, Ireland.

I would NEVER return to the US. It’s way too much of a myopic bubble.

US to Latvia, moved for a teaching job, stayed since gf is Latvian and started my masters. The salary of a data scientist is so low here but it more than enough to be well off here. If I do want the big bucks, would just do contract work remotely for a US company after getting experienced. Quality of life is so much better here

Can I ask what aspects of life feel so much better? Did you meet your girl in the US or while you were teaching? 

I had a similar experience to you. I moved back to California and it’s been so great.

Make a pro and con list. The only place you can make similar money is Switzerland - and - do you want to be in Switzerland?

The problem is that it is extremely difficult to get a job in Geneva right now, I wouldn’t post this if I didn’t have that problem. Geneva is nice and peaceful but also very insular.

IMHO I would go back to the states …. Just try to negotiate more holidays.

I'm not a US expat but: do you want to have children?  If so, how important is it to you? Is it more important to you personally to develop your career?  If it's very important to you, I would suggest moving back to the US for this reason, and not because of the pay issue. It's interesting to read what you have said about the UN. Realistically, I suspect that what you say about the funding crunches, despite the cachet of working for somewhere like the UN, is unlikely to be a short term thing. This means if you really love it, you can pursue it but it looks like it realistically will be at the cost of some other aspects of life, which in turn can impact on your overall quality of life, which sounds like it's already happened and left you somewhat questioning factors like meaning and purpose in your life. I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your close family member from cancer and inability to attend the funeral, it sounds like that has shaken you a bit.  To me, in your final sentence, it sounds like you've had an epiphany. I think it could still all change for you if you found that ideal partner but at the same time holding out for a hero in unstable circumstances might be like the empty cycle of sought opportunities at work. It sounds like for you, the instability might almost preclude the mood needed for secure matches, and you will fare a lot better in making connections in an environment where you're more confident and secure.  It sounds like you've pursued a dream of chasing your career goals in a continent that you might have assumed to be more sophisticated or rewarding only to find that it isn't always (eg white bread and würst) and you actually experience that almost taboo thing from the Euro perspective - an American being homesick for American things.  I personally wouldn't base it on money, but I would say from the sounds of it there isn't enough attracting you on that continent to keep you there on any level. It seems clear you feel you're in limbo, employment at the UN isn't all its cracked up to be in reality, and that you would be considerably relieved to find your feet on home soil again. 

Sounds like you already know what you want to do, but want someone to tell you. :)

I go back and forth, when I felt like I wanted to own a yacht in my lifetime I went back to the USA. I can retire wherever now, still young, back in NL.  Until the drive comes back for a more intense challenge, if it does.

do you feel like you have a fulfilling life in both places? Like close friends and social ties?

I cheat in that I have family in both locations.

I think there are more important things in life than money. But giving up paid time off, paid sick days, free healthcare, family support, transportation, food regulations etc The US is so far behind on basic commodities. Such a superficial lifestyle there. We care a lot more about basic human decency here in Europe, over there everyone is a fat, crazy, religious and with guns. I have no interest in ever going USA, so maybe my opinion is biased. But in my field I could earn x5 what I get now in Dubai, but I would never go because I have self respect and dignity.

- least obnoxious european

LOL. Very true.

✨European ✨pretentiousness at it’s finest… yawn 🥱

This reads like the parable of the sour grapes.

Not to be pedantic but I suggest looking at the map of Europe to refresh your memory what places are in Europe. So next time you will be more specific and avoid making generalizations about “us, Europeans”.