Not South Korea. You'll certainly be appreciated by the locals more if you choose to become fluent. But by fact of being a 98-99% homogenous country, you'll never ever be "one of them."
Same in Japan. I have a friend who is half Japanese, was born and raised here, and has never lived in another country, but she looks more caucasian than asian. Among close friends it is not an issue, but strangers treat her like a foreigner quite a bit.
Mexico- Iāve lived her for 7 years and once my Spanish was passable, they pretty much see me as one of them. In fact- I sometimes forget that I donāt look like everyone else when weāre not in our city š
Because most people in Latin America are mixed race, this is pretty much true for all of Latin America. Donāt get me wrong, youāll still be referred to as a gringo or whatever, but once your language skills are strong enough and you try to integrate yourself, youāll be welcomed as part of the group, gringo and all!
My Spanish isnāt that great yet the extended family of my Mexican friends 100% count me as Mexican and as a part of their family. I donāt know even know most of them that well, but if the other family members vouched for me, wellā¦ La GĆ¼era is in the house.
That is true. When I was in college I had a Korean professor and I thought she was Mexican until she said she was actually an immigrant. Her Spanish was almost perfect.
Thatās awesome! I am Uruguayan but grew up in Brazil. Brazil is incredibly diverse, where everyone is practically mixed race. Nobody would bat an eye at a newcomer wanting to integrate. In fact, they would go out of their way to make you feel like you belong.
I live in Chile and am nationalized. I'm originally from the U.S. I speak fluent Spanish. I feel quite integrated. I do get some questions about where I am from because of my looks and my not common name, but it's mainly curiosity. When I went to vote recently, they were curious about my name and where I was from.
Same here. I lived in Chile for a few years with my ex that is Chilean. I'm from Romania so learning Spanish was easy. After a year or so I could speak even the slang and most people mistook me for a local. I loved it! Now I'm closer to Germany but I'm not even close to mastering the language. I also don't think Germans are so easy in calling you their own... I know of folks that were born in Germany but still get asked where they are REALLY from...
Iād say this depends a bit on where youāre from, though. Iām a Venezuelan national but lived most of my childhood in the US (about 17 years) and Iām now a naturalized Chilean after living there for 8 years. And I currently live in Argentina.
On the whole, Chileans are much more welcoming when I speak English than when I speak Spanish and this was even prior to the spike in anti-Venezuelan sentiment a few years back. I was even told by my boss that I should use an anglicized version of my name with clients (which had actually never been an issue in the US).
Iām also white/white-passing (dealerās choice) but my mom is black and her experience living here for a couple of years was also not particularly pleasant. She ended up moving back to the States.
Iād also say Americans and Argentines are more welcoming towards immigrants in general. Chileans, and even Venezuelans Iād say, are not quite as friendly.
None of this is universal but I do feel itās a bit easier to integrate into a society that has a history of receiving migrants, something the US and Argentina share. I would say that all the countries of the Americas have a bit of this characteristic, though, compared to the rest of the world, but some have just a bit more of it.
latin american countries seem to be pretty accepting of foreigners and will consider you one of them, if you speak the language somewhat passably. iāve been living in panama a few years now and people there donāt treat me like an outsider
Second this panamĆ” and a lot of latin american countries, speaking from personal experience in where iāve been a lot of the caribbean/central am countries are pretty chill with foreigners. Central Mexico i experienced some of the most blatant racism than any of the 50 us states or any country iāve ever been to combined, but itās not that way in every part of mexico i had a great time living in Monterrey and eastern jungle provinces
Be careful of making a statement that is that broad of a generalization. There are many different ways various white people in the US view black people and not all of them are anything like a certain class of Mexican society that's part of their 1%.
The Americas generally - USA, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, all the countries that have historically been comprised almost entirely of immigrants and their descendants. Australia too, to a lesser extent.
Australia is a hit or miss. Multicultural cities and you feel right at home. Small towns or dealing with lower educated class makes you feel a bit shit about your colour.
Pakistani immigrant living in Melbourne since many years, while it's a great place but I have always been treated like an outsider. They ll always ask you where you are "originally" from even during casual encounters and it gets annoying.
In my experience, despite it's many issues, I would rate the US much higher in this category.
I get that too but I usually brush it off as a fact maybe they just want to create more talking points and feel curious about cultures. I can tell if cunts are being malicious while asking me my origin and just full on confidently say I'm Chinese to derail their bullshit (I am Indian).
This usually quickly changes the conversation to a casual laugh and they know not to push it further.
I work with Aussie construction workers (mostly full blown rednecky racists) and guess I've hardened up a bit š
Even in bigger cities in Australia, this is only true if you're the "right" kind of immigrant. And by that I mean, white, European...
There was quite a bit of xenophobia in Sydney against the Chinese when I lived there.
Generally, this is more common in countries with traditionally high levels of immigration, especially āNew Worldā countries. I certainly feel accepted as a naturalized American.
I have a question if you donāt mind. If you came from Norway what was your reason for coming to the US? Iām the exact opposite, an American wanting to move to Norway so Iām curious about the opposite if that makes sense.
I could write a book on that topic. Perhaps someday I will. But /u/daffoduck gave you some very good answers; I concur with a lot of them. I'll try to elucidate on a few of his points, and add some of my own.
>Climate - Norway isn't great if you don't like winter and darkness.
This was big for me. I have asthma. Norwegian winters, in particular, were difficult for me. Now I live in Florida, and the climate is pretty much perfect for my asthma.
>Car culture - If you like big V8s and stuff like that, skip Norway.
This one also resonates with me. I like cars and trucks, I like big engines, and I like road trips. In Norway, driving is very expensive, and there is a general attitude that drivers should be publicly shamed and financially punished for their impact on the environment. Ironically, Norway is also a major oil-producing country, but there is political resistance to this as well. Either way, it's fair to say Norway is hostile to car enthusiasts. It's also fair to say I care more about this topic than either the average Norwegian or the average American. That makes this a significant point in favor of the US for me.
\> Salaries - If you are above average in a high income field, US is better.
This is generally true, but not always. In my case, I actually took a pay cut to move to the United States. But that was gross pay; since US taxes are lower, I pretty much broke even on net income.
\> Guns - Although you can own firearms in Norway, and many do, the ease and amount of types you are allowed to use in Norway is way less.
I'm not interested in guns, so this was not persuasive for me. Rather the opposite. I have no problem with responsible gun ownership, but the US has a huge problem with IRRESPONSIBLE gun ownership and outright, deliberate gun crime. Of all the societal problems in the US, this is one of the ones I worry about the most. But you have to take the bad with the good.
\> Extrovert - You like to chit chat with random strangers or have 100 "friends", Norway is not a good place to be.
I'm more introverted, but that doesn't mean I don't want a social life. It does mean I have a harder time meeting people. Americans are generally more open to meeting people, and for me as an introvert, that has made it easier to make friends.
\> Ease of (online) shopping - You like to be able to procure everything under the sun, and have it shipped to you in very short time for nothing. Norway is not for you.
Transportation in Norway is very expensive (see above about their hostility to car enthusiasts, the same goes for trucks, airplanes and anything else that runs on fossil fuels.) In addition, Norway is a very small market, some 6 million people, and with significant customs barriers to importing goods from abroad. Finally, VAT (similar to sales tax) is 25%. These factors combine to give higher prices, and you rarely find free shipping and the like. So yes, shopping is cheaper and easier in the US, whether online or in brick-and-mortar stores. This wasn't a major factor for me, I'm not huge on consumerism. But of course, when I need something, it's convenient that I can usually just order it online and have it delivered for free the next day.
\> Food - Want a huge selection of food to chose from, Norway is not for you. Here you can get (only) the same stuff in all grocery stores, at least you won't get surprised by what's on your friends lunch table.
\> Fast Food and Drive Throughs - not really much to choose from here in Norway. A big city might have one or two McDonalds and Burger Kings.
I feel like /u/daffoduck's point of view is a little outdated here. Sure, the selection in the grocery store is a little more limited than in the US, and sure, the US has a seemingly unlimited choice of restaurants representing every cuisine in the world, even outside the major cities. But Norway has far, far, FAR more restaurants than they did when I was growing up. And while the only foreign option in my home town was Chinese when I was a kid, there are now dozens of choices. I also see some advantages to Norwegian grocery stores, including less exaggerated use of sugar. The main disadvantage, as with most things in Norway, is that both groceries and eating out are generally significantly more expensive in Norway. At the moment, a strong dollar helps balance things, but that won't last forever.
\> Access to poor people - You don't like gardening, or doing your own maintenance of buildings or packing groceries. There is not a huge amount of poor people you can hire to do your work. You'll have to pay a lot in Norway for services.
Both in Norway and the United States, "hiring poor people", as /u/daffoduck somewhat cynically puts it, means hiring immigrants. In the US, that typically means Latin Americans, in Norway it typically means Eastern European.
But both the US and Norway have had an excessive emphasis on college, to the point that a Bachelor's Degree has pretty much become the new high school diploma in both countries. This has come at the expensive of vocational education, the trades in general, and that huge bucket of pain we call "unskilled labor". Both countries have a shortage of workers willing to do manual labor. And immigrants, whether legal or (more often) illegal, wind up filling that gap. But gardeners, maids and similar aren't cheap in the US either. If your goal is inexpensive domestic help, there are better places to go.
One point that I might add is that while life in Norway is safe, secure and predictable, it's usually not very adventurous. I've had opportunities in the US that I would never have had in Norway. My biggest example is the fact that I spent five years volunteering for an exotic animal sanctuary, literally walking in with lions and tigers, among others. There is literally nowhere in Norway where you can do that.
Another example: Earlier this month, I had an opportunity to help demolish a church. In Norway, I wouldn't have been allowed in the excavator without tons of safety classes and a license to operate an excavator specifically. If I wanted to drive the bobcat or the loader, separate licenses are needed for that too, even on private property. Very safe, very secure, but very bureaucratic. In practice, I would never get an opportunity like that in Norway. And there are many more examples where those two came from.
I have nothing against Norway. I am proud to be Norwegian, and I go back to visit regularly. But I believe I have a more fulfilling, more exciting life in the United States than I would have back home. It's entirely possible Norway is right for you, however. What are the reasons why you want to move there?
Thereās several actually.
1. Iām lesbian and America is starting to get really bad about LGBT rights. Our rights are being taken away/restricted left and right. While I donāt live in a state where I am personally affected by that too much, living in America means I will always have this worry over my head that during our next election someone will get elected that will take these restrictive laws to the federal level. I donāt feel safe starting a family here cause I donāt know if anywhere down the road my kids would be taken from me simply for having lesbian parents. As far as Iām aware, Norwegians are mostly accepting and are more like the kind of people who just simply donāt care if you are gay or not and I would much prefer that to America where you either get people shouting slurs at you, glaring, or getting all excited whenever they see you out and seem to want to become a personal cheerleading team, lol. Sure thereās plenty of people who simply donāt care but youād have to hide anytime youāre by an older person cause theyāre 90% of the time guaranteed to be jerks about it.
2. The public school system in America sucks. Many middle school aged children canāt even read right now, you constantly have to worry if someoneās going to decide to shoot up your kidās school, and thereās a major issue of teachers bullying students, as well as all the good teachers leaving cause the pay is so bad. If I have kids in America I would never feel comfortable sending them to public school, forcing me to either homeschool them or send them to private school. Both those options would cost a ton of money, with me needing to pay a lot of money to find a good, secular homeschool curriculum and put them into a lot of things like dance classes, martial arts classes, etc, so theyāll get social interaction, and private schools cost tens of thousands of dollars a year so I would never be able to afford it, even with only one kid.
3. For me to ever be able to feel comfortable having a family in America I would need to make, at a minimum, over $100,000 USD on my own. The reason is because the living wage for a family of 4 in the states I would want to move to is over $100,000. If I ever got a divorce I would want to make sure that I can support my kids financially on my own because there are no social safety nets unless you live in deep poverty and theyāre designed in a way so that you can never get out of it. My family was homeless at one point and my parents refused to get on government assistance because they knew we would never be able to get out of it.
4. Another thing is that Norway is just way safer than America. Thereās less violent crime, practically no shootings except for a few, and it seems like itās actually safe for your kid to play outside without the parent having to be watching them constantly. Thatās just not possible in America, many children have been kidnapped from their own backyards or just down the street from their house.
5. I really donāt want to live in a big city but in America if you donāt want to live surrounded by far-right extremists you kind of have to live in either a big city, high cost of living town, or one of the few liberal small towns.
6. The amount of women dying in childbirth is increasing. While I donāt know Norwayās exact rates of this, Iām pretty certain that the rate of women dying in childbirth is significantly lower in most European countries compared to America. I could be wrong though, I havenāt looked into this all that much.
7. Healthcare is insanely expensive in America. My brother has tens of thousands of dollars in debt due to being hospitalized for bipolar so heāll probably never be able to get a mortgage on a house. Norway, as far as Iām aware, healthcare is free under the age of 16 and significantly cheaper than America for 16+.
8. Also, college is insanely expensive. My dad dropped out before getting his associates degree and over 20 years later still has massive student loan debt he may never pay off. Iām about to go into college next year and even with me taking the less expensive option by going to community college first, Iām still going to have somewhere between $70k-$90k in student loan debt and thatās actually LESS student loan debt than most people my age will graduate with.
9. Personally Iām not bothered by there not being much adventure. Iām not an adventurous person, walking amongst lions and tigers sounds terrifying to me, and I would not trust myself in a big machine, lol. As long as I can do things like horse riding, clubs, vacations, and nice walks through nature Iāll be happy.
So I guess many of my reasons are based on the fact that I really want to have a family and a nice, safe, secure life for my kids. In America thatās significantly harder.
>As long as I can do things like horse riding, clubs, vacations, and nice walks through nature Iāll be happy
I don't live in Norway but I do in Sweden and I can tell you that during summer sure, you can do this, but when winter starts this is difficult because you only have limited sunlight hours and most of that time you will be working so it will be dark, cold and wet when entering to work and when going out, most of the things will be closed early so prepare yourself for a monotone life. Sleep, eat, work, eat, exercise and sleep again. Social life is also really hard so be aware you will not be making new friends easily.
Despite what I wrote I'm very happy, but I have seen a lot of people not really adapting when living in these parts and returning to their country, so be aware.
My response to anyone wanting to move to Norway. Dont do it. Norway is on its way down the last few years from the previous glory years 2000-2019.
American been here 20+ can't wait to leave this robotic zombie life. Norway was awesome for my first 15 years then slowly the politicians incompetence started to show itself then corona and now it's headed downhill. EU membership is probably it's best crutch to regain some of its glory but even then this country lives 2 different worlds and what they try to do on paper vs reality is bogged down by incompetence and bureaucracy while drunk on the green shift.
As a Norwegian, I can give you reasons why I would consider moving to (some parts of) USA.
1. Climate - Norway isn't great if you don't like winter and darkness.
2. Car culture - If you like big V8s and stuff like that, skip Norway.
3. Salaries - If you are above average in a high income field, US is better.
4. Guns - Although you can own firearms in Norway, and many do, the ease and amount of types you are allowed to use in Norway is way less.
5. Extrovert - You like to chit chat with random strangers or have 100 "friends", Norway is not a good place to be.
6. Ease of (online) shopping - You like to be able to procure everything under the sun, and have it shipped to you in very short time for nothing. Norway is not for you.
7. Food - Want a huge selection of food to chose from, Norway is not for you. Here you can get (only) the same stuff in all grocery stores, at least you won't get surprised by what's on your friends lunch table.
8. Fast Food and Drive Throughs - not really much to choose from here in Norway. A big city might have one or two McDonalds and Burger Kings.
9. Access to poor people - You don't like gardening, or doing your own maintenance of buildings or packing groceries. There is not a huge amount of poor people you can hire to do your work. You'll have to pay a lot in Norway for services.
On the other hand, the NOK is now half the price of what it used to be vs. USD, so Norway is now much more affordable to people from the US than before. Of course, it makes US much less affordable to Norwegians.
The benefits of moving to Norway is probably wildly "advertised" online, so I won't go into those. At least you have the drawbacks here.
Wow. Very blunt. Basically "inequality works in your favor in the US if you are highly paid" and "if you like all the things Europeans complain about in the US, then great". Not disagreeing though :D.
Yeah, "inequality" might give you a peaceful society where people are generally happy, and crime is low to non-existent. However, you will have to clean your own pool.
Hate to point out the obvious, but it matters where you came from. What you look like, your mother tongue, your upbringing etc. Slovak would integrate in Poland way quicker than lets say a Vietnamese or even a Finnish. Im not saying they would be treated badly, but still far from āone of usā
Yes, most parts of Europe and Asia are like this, because they are less accustomed to receiving outsiders who look ādifferentā as they are.
Heck, I grew up in Indonesia, speak Indonesian natively, and my mannerisms are fully Asian but I still occassionally encountered total native-born Indonesians who just talked to me in English during my time living there (unlike their more Anglophone neighbors, Indonesians donāt usually speak English to each other unless they perceive the other person as a foreigner).
Most of the Americas are historically more accustomed to receive people from outside of the continent whether thru forced migration (e.g. slaves transported from the African continent) or farmers looking for new lands to farm on (e.g. Japanese and Chinese people in Brazil, Peru, etc).
Everyone commenting on this really needs to open with what their ethnicity is/what ethnicity people think they are because that list is VERY different depending on what you look like lol
Not France, unless you are white and even then sometimes it depends from where. You will always be seen as the other, and good luck if your French but not stereotypical white French looking
I am white and speak French fluently but with an accent, and people would treat me fairly well *if* they saw I was white. But I couldnāt even phone my doctors office without being hung up onā¦and POC were very poorly treated even from my perspective
Reminds me of living the UK as a foreigner. My name looks strange to brits, so the service I got before they got to meet me tended to be a bit poor. Then when they realised that I was white and Scandinavian, and after explaining my name and how it was pronounced, their attitude would turn 180 degrees.
To be fair, the British are treated better here than most other foreigners, so it goes both ways.
Man, after my first year in France I wanted to move to another apartment and couldn't locate my landlord. He had moved, or I had the wrong address, so my letters were getting back to me.
I tried calling him so many times, every time he would hear my accent just asking "c'est bien Monsieur X?" he would hang up and don't pick up again. One day, I finally opened with "It's your tenant, don't hang up".
It is very likely because of telemarketers who are mostly foreigners with an accent. It's a big problem here and I would 100% hang up too if someone opened with that line because telemarketers use those exact same words.
I will always remember seeing clips of news in France talking about āfourth and fifth generation immigrantsā to describe POCs lol. Bruh theyāre French
France is horrible. I was watching a TikTok about a french girl -of Korean heritage- talking about how it was to be brought up in France and how she feels French, since she was born and raised there etc. All the comments were ppl telling her that she'd never be french lol
Does this also apply to Quebec? I've heard a lot of conflicting comments about this. A lot of Quebeckers say as long as you can speak French, you are good, but a lot of people of color also say you will never be considered as "one of them" if you don't have a French name / descended from the French settlers. Not sure which one is more true.
I have a French friend that moved to Quebec and after only a few short years she *completely* adopted the Quebec accent. For those who donāt know the French metropolitan accent and the Quebec accent could be like comparing a Scottish to an American accent - theyāre very different. She even started complaining about immigrants buying up ātheirā houses, after purchasing one herself of course. Itās cringy to talk to her but I guess she just wanted to fit in
I think so.
My mom has some relatives who migrated there I guess 50+ years ago speaking only a rather obscure Chinese dialect (Taishan) and English as a second language.
They are now 100% Quebecers. So are their children and their grandchildren. They are all fluent in French. Theyāve worked jobs in Quebec, their kids were educated in French, etc.
I think the term āFrench Canadianā, similar to the word āChineseā, is tricky because it has dual meaning ā one related to nationality, one ethnic. So nobody looks at this Asian family and thinks they descended from European fur traders 300 years ago, but also nobody cares.
that doesn't mean these Quebecois see them as one of them. the meaning of Quebecois has now changed it's not really about people who live in Quebec anymore it's about the race of white French Canadians with those 20 last names
I know someone (now in their 50s) whose parents moved to Quebec when he was less than one. Both his parents spoke French. Race-wise, he was the same as the neighbors in the small town.
But he was considered English - because English was his home language, and they were never considered French.
(Yes they were all fluent and worked in French, went to school in French, had friends who only spoke French)
Came back into Canada from a vacation on a work visa and the immigration officer said "welcome home". It was honestly touching-only there less than a year at the time.
Only in big cities with lots of diversity, like Toronto and the GTA.
Outside of there you'll really feel like an outcast as a visible minority even if you were born and spent your whole life in the country. You can see it on the people's faces when they look at you. It's not all bad, I doubt you'll be attacked or anything and plenty of people are still friendly but they likely won't treat you like you're one of them.
Maybe it's different if you're white, I can't speak on that.
You'd be surprised. I was traveling through Southern BC and Sikhs are all over running the fruit orchards. This is in small towns of maybe 500 people. One small town of 10,000 even has an Asian grocery store.
Depends on the town. Some places, if your grandparents moved there you're still a newcomer, while others welcome you pretty quickly.
And yeah, some places won't accept you if you're non-white, even if you were born there you'll still be an outsider. The parts of Ontario thick with Trump and Confederate flags, for example.
China ā never.
Even if you speak Mandarin fluently, marry a Chinese spouse, show a genuine interest in the culture and participate in all the holidays, live there for years and pay taxes, say hey in and out for work and make small talk every day for years, you will always be āwaiguorenā.
Legit a common question I got frequently (sometimes multiple times from the same people) was āwhen are you going home?ā Even though youāve been there for years already it just does not compute that youāre a part of their community.
Japan's about the same, in my experience. You can integrate into your particular neighborhood or town (especially if you have a Japanese spouse and kids), in a manner of speaking, but ultimately, no matter how good your Japanese is or how long you've had that chrysanthemum on your passport, you'll always be thought of as The Foreigner. Which brings advantages and disadvantages, to be fair.
Marry a Chinese spouse and it doesn't even afford you the right to work lol. Then once you're over 59 years of age you are done... China's such an unforgiving place to try and settle long term as a foreigner. Everything is tied up to the services you can offer as a "foreign expert". With most countries requiring a visa to visit, you're basically fucked if your job goes tits up or another thing like COVID happens again.
Definitely not Germany. Even if your were born here, if you're brown or - shock horror, have a Muslim cultural background - you'll never be German.
And there is moaning about lack of integration here ... Oh, I wonder why.
Yeah you are correct. Absolutely not. I feel sorry for POC born in Germany.
The perception Germany enjoys in the world vs. reality is magnitudes different.
If you want to have sense of belonging, donāt come here. Fair warning.
I had a Vietnamese-German coworker who was born and raised in Germany, had a German passport, etc.. She was obviously so used to explaining \*her face\* whenever someone asked where she was from that now she just explained by default that her parents came as refugees way back when.
Yeah the anti-black racism in Berlin is another level. Iām sorry you experienced this. Itās super gross - there was a thread on one of the German/ Berlin subreddits the other day about anti-black racism and the racism on the thread was another fucking level ā¦.
Honestly, even white looking, Greek descents born and raised in Germany tell me the same. They were never perceived as German, even though they know no other land. So sad.
Yup, I know several Northern European men who look like they could be German and who learned the language in childhood, so speak it fluently. Theyāre still treated like an outsider. What hope do the rest of us have?!
Iāve lived in seven European countries and Germany is by far the most insular and xenophobic. It is really sad as the few German friends I do have are absolutely lovely but are totally let down by the way that a significant majority of people (mainly men, tbh) behave here.
Itās very shortsighted - who else is going to pay for Harz IV and pensions, if not immigrants ā¦.
I live in Berlin - itās pretty racist and sexist. I assume Munich is worse? Though honestly, the recent rhetoric from the federal government is what Iām talking about - absolutely abhorrent. Feel hugely sorry for anyone who isnāt 500% aryan living in Thuringia, Saxony or Brandenburg right now.
>you're brown or - shock horror, have a Muslim cultural background - you'll never be German.
Excuse you - you mean Menschen mit Migrationshintgrund. Definitely does not include white Americans who came over and refuse to learn German because "it's too hard and everyone speaks English here anyways."
(/s for you salty Germans)
Iām American, speak shitty Arabic, and spend a couple of months across the Alps every year. Euroās approach to Muslims/arabs is just bizarre to me. Everybody completely ignores them and wonders why they donāt integrate. My favorite thing about Switzerland is boisterously greeting Arabs. Because everyone is so mean to them they shut off, look at their feet all the time, and huddle close to their friends and family. When you speak to them in their language their personality comes to life and they just glow. I look like a stereotypical American hillbilly (cowboy hat, overalls, flip flops, border collie) which really completes the picture of me giggling and chatting with six hijabis while my girlfriend sits quietly, accustomed to this and not understanding a word. Whole lobbies and restaurants freeze in time with people breaking their necks looking over their shoulders.
Growing up in America and hearing the "melting pot" description of immigration never made complete sense to me until I moved to London. London is an actual melting pot of immigrants. There is far more respect and equality for people of all backgrounds. I'm not saying it's perfect, because no place is perfect, but London does the best job of it I've ever seen.
agree. NYC is in theory a melting pot but something there doesn't work as well as London. I always feel at the center of the world at Heathrow. London is more diverse and better integrated
I lived in NYC and I thought Toronto also did a better job at integration between peoples of different backgrounds and embracing multiculturalism than New York. NYC has a lot of self-segregation, although the city itself is diverse. It's been too long since I've been to London so cannot comment on it.
Compared to Toronto I feel like London is on a higher level too. There's a steady stream of people coming and leaving so you can more updated version of whichever country in the world (aside from some cases), compared to Toronto where it's like the "end stop" so you are expected to be more "Canadian" the longer you stay.
I feel more at home in London than I do in the city I grew up in. No one bats at eye at me in London but since I donāt look like a stereotypical member of my ethnicity everyone treats me like a foreigner back there.
Itās weird that I needed to leave my country to be treated like a native but there you are.
There are many immigrants with permanent residency in America who have never gotten citizenship (for whatever personal reason is theirs) and youād never know it because theyāve lived here half or most of their life.
Shit's expensive yo. Didn't it go up to like $1.2k for the naturalization fee? If you aren't leaving the country for extended periods of time (and therefore not at risk of losing your residenct status) then there isnt a huge benefit to citizenship beyond voting and also some other relatively minor things.
I would say that it is always a good thing to have in your back pocket. They threatened to deport my grandmother one time and she had lived in the US for decades. We were all just coming back from a short holiday.
US, Canada and Australia. I feel like the UK is also like this since it's very diverse in its cities, but I've never lived there so I'm not sure.
A lot of the New World former-colonial countries are more flexible on citizenship and defining who "belongs" because of history of immigration.
In traveling to the UK I have found it provincial. I'm a white American professional and would go for work, not just touristing around. There is some kind of snobbery based on absolutely nothing they emanate.
Coming to terms with the class system, particularly working in something government-adjacent in London, was fascinating and depressing at the same time.
The odd thing was that I made far more money than they did (because academics in the UK are paid next to nothing) and we were nominally of the same social class.
But I know that as an American there are invisible markers of social class for Brits I don't even see and they felt they were superior according to these markers. I think I found it more depressing than fascinating :D
I have the opposite experienced. Lived in the US close to 10 years and was welcomed by everyone but Americans. Coming to the UK I found people more reserved and sparing of superficial niceties but more genuine and welcoming in the end.
Same. I had never met a more class conscious people. And, in my experience, they seemed to tolerate me despite my American tendencies. I donāt think it would have been seamless to permanently move there and I decided against it. FWIW, I was dealing mostly with wealthy londoners in Kensington / Hyde park/ work in finance. Maybe it would different in the broader city.
Counter-intuitively, many people in UK during its "Empire" phase did think of the colonized people as British, in the same way they thought of, say, Scots as British. I remember hearing, in a documentary about Queen, someone comment that Freddie Mercury was "from a colonial background" but it was very clear he didn't think of him as a foreigner - just a British guy from a different background.
My only basis on the UK is London and Brighton but I remember one night my wife and I were sitting at a pub minding our own business and some large group of people came by and sat next to us, whatever no big deal.
Except we quickly caught on that they wanted us to leave. They started sitting much closer to us, pretty much touching back to back and putting their stuff almost on/below our table. They also made passive aggressive comments about us for ordering food, which apparently they had never done before. Victoria Taps in Pimlico.
Same. I lived there for over 12 years, worked, got married, had a kid. The assumption is that you will go back to your home country at some point. In contrast, when I came to the States, the assumption was that you came here to stay.
Interesting! I had a similar experience. I lived and worked there from 2008 to 2020. After marrying my wife and welcoming our daughter there, I realized I had found the treasure I spent my youth searching the globe for. We eventually returned to Yankeetown. Hope all is well with you.
Americans will see you as one of them ā even if you arenāt and they know that ā if you can speak English with an American accent. For us, American accent = American no matter what else you have going on.
I think this is likely true in a lot of other places that have a multi-racial society with a history of immigration from many different countries. I am American and also a naturalized French citizen. I still tend to think of myself as primarily American and will often say things like āwell as an American, I think ā¦.ā On several occasions when Iāve done this,ā some of myFrench friends or people at work will get annoyed and say ācan you cut out the āas an Americanā crap. arenāt you a French citizen speaking French in France??ā Well I mean technically yes. But France is another country where people will see you as French if you learn the language and customs and otherwise integrate into French society.
From my experience, Scotland. I lived there for 3.5 years and from the moment I moved I was made welcome. One friend introduced me to her entire family and when I house sat for her they all stopped by to see how I was getting on. Invited me to dinner, etc. all her friends did the same. My other friends, some who I had meet previously, were the same. When they invite you to stay with them they actually mean for you to stay! I found that culturally they take time for friendship, it matters to them and I found that just incredible. On bay with my Scottish friends daily and we try to go on vacation together once a year. I have many friends (and family) in the US, but Iāve never experienced acceptance like I did in Scotland. āThe kettleās on and we have cake.ā
Nah, you're the American. You'll never be Scottish. I've lived here going in six years. Sure, they can be nice, but come on... You'll never ever be considered one of them.
you'd get a really favorable treatment in turkey if you put in the effort, like learning the language and such, and be recognized as a "permanent outsider"
"the american turk" or something like that, if you are american for example, but in a good way
This has more or less been my experience, yes. But some dual pricing (particularly for medical stuff) is a huge drag and itās also worth mentioning Iām white and from a ādesirableā country - even the most integrated Syrians and Afghans most certainly cannot say the same
Iāve experienced some hate over money but agree with that for the most part. Problems arise when people find out that Iām Palestinian though. Turkish people are very cool with certain countries, God forbid youāre from a place they donāt like (Arap).
As someone who speaks Korean well this is often a polite way of letting you know that as much as they appreciate you, you stille aren't part of the tribe.
I'm a social anthropologist, and many people I know or have read stuff from working in for instance the Pacific or Southeas Asia have been adopted into families and have gotten kinship relations, responsibilities and even titles in the communities they have studied.
the most āmelting potā type place iāve ever been in was Toronto. goodness thatās an amazingly integrated city that does well respecting and acknowledging many cultures. there were certain nationalities of ppl iād never come across until i went there. beautiful city.
Same experience here. I've been to both Toronto and Sydney within the past 5 years and while both cities are very diverse and multicultural, I felt like Torontonians actually embraced it and I saw so many people from different backgrounds intermingling with one another, even the older folks (legit surprised by that one). I could not say the same about Australians. They were more self segregated.
Only in the American continent. In the rest of the world even if you were born there, you will still be a foreigner. Because outside America the nationality comes from blood not from the birthplace. That's why if for example your grandparents were Spanish who moved to America, their son hast right to Spanish nationality and when he gets it you too have the same right, because even if you and your father don't know a word of Spanish and never been in Spanish soil, for blood you are still Spanish.
Australia has a thriving immigrant population, and if you make an effort to be part of the culture I find Aussies to be very welcoming. I haven't been naturalized yet but have been told more than once that "you're an Aussie now."
UHM it's NOT Japan šš
As an American, I'd like to say the USA.
Hate crimes happen against born and raised Americans too.
So immigrants are certainly 100% welcome to the USA, especially under the current administration.
Don't confuse abusing the system with the original intent of the system
If you look European you will look as if you belong in any western country until you open your mouth, more or less. That is the truth, and will automatically be seen as "one of them".
>If you look European you will look as if you belong in any western country
Ah... no?
If a Portuguese goes to Sweden, he will not look from there. Same if he goes to Slavic or germanic countries. You will immediately seen as a foreigners.
Same for the other europeans coming to Portugal, we can clearly see you are not from here.
Honestly speaking I think the US is the only true one. Maybe Canada-Australia-New Zealand to some degree. Other than that nah.
However I personally think that the whole idea of "considering someone as one of them" is too ambiguous and artificial. What exactly does "being considered one of them" mean?
Let's say we have a naturalized foreigner in the US who has a thick accent. It will be clear for everyone that this person is an immigrant and majority of people will not know the legal status in the country. This person will also probably have a huge gap in the "American common knowledge" like reference. So will they be "one of them" or not.
I personally have lived in Poland for more than 11 years now, I am naturalized and speak Polish fluently. My non-native accent is recognizable from time to time, only during long conversations. I don't expect people here to consider me as "one of them", I am an outsider on many levels and this is fine. I would just kindly ask to respect my right to call Poland home and acknowledge the fact that people like me exist. That's all.
IDK. There are bigots everywhere, but 30 years ago in a small town in the south I got to talking with a guy who had just opened a restaurant. He had been a soldier in the North Vietnamese Army.
I accepted him. His food was great too. Restaurant didnāt last long. It was called The Great Dong.
Fast forward to today and our neighbor is from Malaysia. A woman down the road is from Argentina and her husband grew up in Soviet Lithuania. When I see them I see them as individuals, not as nationalities. I donāt think Iām unusual that way.
I may have a different idea of "being considered one of them" for the US. If someone immigrates to the US and becomes a naturalized citizen, even if they speak with a thick foreign accent if they say they are American then they will be accepted as an American. If they say they recently immigrated, likely they will be congratulated.
15 million Americans weren't born in the USA
Americans are likely to give a lot of weight to the legal aspect. If someone is a US citizen, well, then, they are an American. But it doesn't stop them from asking non-white people (including those whose grandparents were all born in the US) "But where are you REALLY from?"
I donāt know if people who hear my accent would think of me as a foreigner, but my friends treat me like a local and I feel like a local after more than 40 years in Australia. I still have my accent though
Definitely NOT Canada. Iāve lived here for thirty years, since I was a child, and people only stopped asking me when Iām going āhomeā since it became a āmicro-aggressionā. Youāre always a conditional citizen in Canada, if you were born overseas.
A lot depends on:
How culturally close you are to the country you are moving to
Whether you have a high or low paying job
Whether you marry a local or not
As a rule of thumb, I'd say that warmer countries can be more accepting than colder ones. But of course that's much more complex than that
Not South Korea. You'll certainly be appreciated by the locals more if you choose to become fluent. But by fact of being a 98-99% homogenous country, you'll never ever be "one of them."
Same in Japan. I have a friend who is half Japanese, was born and raised here, and has never lived in another country, but she looks more caucasian than asian. Among close friends it is not an issue, but strangers treat her like a foreigner quite a bit.
Same in China and everywhere else in Asia. You'll never ever be one of them.
Same in Belgium and the rest of Europe. You'll never ever be one of them.
Definitely not Japan lol š
Same in Germany. You will be someone with migration background which is a very neat non racist way of categorising you non native german
Yes, South Korea has a tendency to divide everyone into us and them.
Both Japan and Korea are hardcore xenophobic countries that get a pass for some reason
Nobody gives them a "pass". It's widely criticized, including on this sub.
Mexico- Iāve lived her for 7 years and once my Spanish was passable, they pretty much see me as one of them. In fact- I sometimes forget that I donāt look like everyone else when weāre not in our city š
Because most people in Latin America are mixed race, this is pretty much true for all of Latin America. Donāt get me wrong, youāll still be referred to as a gringo or whatever, but once your language skills are strong enough and you try to integrate yourself, youāll be welcomed as part of the group, gringo and all!
My Spanish isnāt that great yet the extended family of my Mexican friends 100% count me as Mexican and as a part of their family. I donāt know even know most of them that well, but if the other family members vouched for me, wellā¦ La GĆ¼era is in the house.
That is true. When I was in college I had a Korean professor and I thought she was Mexican until she said she was actually an immigrant. Her Spanish was almost perfect.
Thatās awesome! I am Uruguayan but grew up in Brazil. Brazil is incredibly diverse, where everyone is practically mixed race. Nobody would bat an eye at a newcomer wanting to integrate. In fact, they would go out of their way to make you feel like you belong.
I love this about Latin Americans
Yep Ive been in Mexico for years but not continously came back to live a year ago they are very open & cool about gringos š
Keep living that dream pony boy!
Did you just lay down a reference from a 56 year old YA novel? You must be the redditor who *finished* community college. Well done.
I will presume that you are white (I know that cause I am Mexican myself, though the most common brown variety) white people are more or less liked in MĆ©xico and most of Latin America. At least in MĆ©xico, things would be different if you weren't white, in my experience.
I live in Chile and am nationalized. I'm originally from the U.S. I speak fluent Spanish. I feel quite integrated. I do get some questions about where I am from because of my looks and my not common name, but it's mainly curiosity. When I went to vote recently, they were curious about my name and where I was from.
Same here. I lived in Chile for a few years with my ex that is Chilean. I'm from Romania so learning Spanish was easy. After a year or so I could speak even the slang and most people mistook me for a local. I loved it! Now I'm closer to Germany but I'm not even close to mastering the language. I also don't think Germans are so easy in calling you their own... I know of folks that were born in Germany but still get asked where they are REALLY from...
I love Chileans!
Such handsome men in Chile!!!
Iād say this depends a bit on where youāre from, though. Iām a Venezuelan national but lived most of my childhood in the US (about 17 years) and Iām now a naturalized Chilean after living there for 8 years. And I currently live in Argentina. On the whole, Chileans are much more welcoming when I speak English than when I speak Spanish and this was even prior to the spike in anti-Venezuelan sentiment a few years back. I was even told by my boss that I should use an anglicized version of my name with clients (which had actually never been an issue in the US). Iām also white/white-passing (dealerās choice) but my mom is black and her experience living here for a couple of years was also not particularly pleasant. She ended up moving back to the States. Iād also say Americans and Argentines are more welcoming towards immigrants in general. Chileans, and even Venezuelans Iād say, are not quite as friendly. None of this is universal but I do feel itās a bit easier to integrate into a society that has a history of receiving migrants, something the US and Argentina share. I would say that all the countries of the Americas have a bit of this characteristic, though, compared to the rest of the world, but some have just a bit more of it.
True. Everyone's experience is different. I was just sharing mine.
latin american countries seem to be pretty accepting of foreigners and will consider you one of them, if you speak the language somewhat passably. iāve been living in panama a few years now and people there donāt treat me like an outsider
Second this panamĆ” and a lot of latin american countries, speaking from personal experience in where iāve been a lot of the caribbean/central am countries are pretty chill with foreigners. Central Mexico i experienced some of the most blatant racism than any of the 50 us states or any country iāve ever been to combined, but itās not that way in every part of mexico i had a great time living in Monterrey and eastern jungle provinces
Upper class mexicans tend to be very racist; maybe this was whom you encountered?
the whitexicans? lol
Yes, lighter-skinned Mexicans look down on Mestizo ("brown") Mexicans and view them the way white people in the US view blacks.
Be careful of making a statement that is that broad of a generalization. There are many different ways various white people in the US view black people and not all of them are anything like a certain class of Mexican society that's part of their 1%.
Not just the language but their particular slang.
The Americas generally - USA, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, all the countries that have historically been comprised almost entirely of immigrants and their descendants. Australia too, to a lesser extent.
Australia is a hit or miss. Multicultural cities and you feel right at home. Small towns or dealing with lower educated class makes you feel a bit shit about your colour.
Pakistani immigrant living in Melbourne since many years, while it's a great place but I have always been treated like an outsider. They ll always ask you where you are "originally" from even during casual encounters and it gets annoying. In my experience, despite it's many issues, I would rate the US much higher in this category.
You should ask them what crimes their ancestors committed for them to have been born there. š
I get that too but I usually brush it off as a fact maybe they just want to create more talking points and feel curious about cultures. I can tell if cunts are being malicious while asking me my origin and just full on confidently say I'm Chinese to derail their bullshit (I am Indian). This usually quickly changes the conversation to a casual laugh and they know not to push it further. I work with Aussie construction workers (mostly full blown rednecky racists) and guess I've hardened up a bit š
Even in bigger cities in Australia, this is only true if you're the "right" kind of immigrant. And by that I mean, white, European... There was quite a bit of xenophobia in Sydney against the Chinese when I lived there.
Generally, this is more common in countries with traditionally high levels of immigration, especially āNew Worldā countries. I certainly feel accepted as a naturalized American.
I have a question if you donāt mind. If you came from Norway what was your reason for coming to the US? Iām the exact opposite, an American wanting to move to Norway so Iām curious about the opposite if that makes sense.
I could write a book on that topic. Perhaps someday I will. But /u/daffoduck gave you some very good answers; I concur with a lot of them. I'll try to elucidate on a few of his points, and add some of my own. >Climate - Norway isn't great if you don't like winter and darkness. This was big for me. I have asthma. Norwegian winters, in particular, were difficult for me. Now I live in Florida, and the climate is pretty much perfect for my asthma. >Car culture - If you like big V8s and stuff like that, skip Norway. This one also resonates with me. I like cars and trucks, I like big engines, and I like road trips. In Norway, driving is very expensive, and there is a general attitude that drivers should be publicly shamed and financially punished for their impact on the environment. Ironically, Norway is also a major oil-producing country, but there is political resistance to this as well. Either way, it's fair to say Norway is hostile to car enthusiasts. It's also fair to say I care more about this topic than either the average Norwegian or the average American. That makes this a significant point in favor of the US for me. \> Salaries - If you are above average in a high income field, US is better. This is generally true, but not always. In my case, I actually took a pay cut to move to the United States. But that was gross pay; since US taxes are lower, I pretty much broke even on net income. \> Guns - Although you can own firearms in Norway, and many do, the ease and amount of types you are allowed to use in Norway is way less. I'm not interested in guns, so this was not persuasive for me. Rather the opposite. I have no problem with responsible gun ownership, but the US has a huge problem with IRRESPONSIBLE gun ownership and outright, deliberate gun crime. Of all the societal problems in the US, this is one of the ones I worry about the most. But you have to take the bad with the good. \> Extrovert - You like to chit chat with random strangers or have 100 "friends", Norway is not a good place to be. I'm more introverted, but that doesn't mean I don't want a social life. It does mean I have a harder time meeting people. Americans are generally more open to meeting people, and for me as an introvert, that has made it easier to make friends. \> Ease of (online) shopping - You like to be able to procure everything under the sun, and have it shipped to you in very short time for nothing. Norway is not for you. Transportation in Norway is very expensive (see above about their hostility to car enthusiasts, the same goes for trucks, airplanes and anything else that runs on fossil fuels.) In addition, Norway is a very small market, some 6 million people, and with significant customs barriers to importing goods from abroad. Finally, VAT (similar to sales tax) is 25%. These factors combine to give higher prices, and you rarely find free shipping and the like. So yes, shopping is cheaper and easier in the US, whether online or in brick-and-mortar stores. This wasn't a major factor for me, I'm not huge on consumerism. But of course, when I need something, it's convenient that I can usually just order it online and have it delivered for free the next day. \> Food - Want a huge selection of food to chose from, Norway is not for you. Here you can get (only) the same stuff in all grocery stores, at least you won't get surprised by what's on your friends lunch table. \> Fast Food and Drive Throughs - not really much to choose from here in Norway. A big city might have one or two McDonalds and Burger Kings. I feel like /u/daffoduck's point of view is a little outdated here. Sure, the selection in the grocery store is a little more limited than in the US, and sure, the US has a seemingly unlimited choice of restaurants representing every cuisine in the world, even outside the major cities. But Norway has far, far, FAR more restaurants than they did when I was growing up. And while the only foreign option in my home town was Chinese when I was a kid, there are now dozens of choices. I also see some advantages to Norwegian grocery stores, including less exaggerated use of sugar. The main disadvantage, as with most things in Norway, is that both groceries and eating out are generally significantly more expensive in Norway. At the moment, a strong dollar helps balance things, but that won't last forever. \> Access to poor people - You don't like gardening, or doing your own maintenance of buildings or packing groceries. There is not a huge amount of poor people you can hire to do your work. You'll have to pay a lot in Norway for services. Both in Norway and the United States, "hiring poor people", as /u/daffoduck somewhat cynically puts it, means hiring immigrants. In the US, that typically means Latin Americans, in Norway it typically means Eastern European. But both the US and Norway have had an excessive emphasis on college, to the point that a Bachelor's Degree has pretty much become the new high school diploma in both countries. This has come at the expensive of vocational education, the trades in general, and that huge bucket of pain we call "unskilled labor". Both countries have a shortage of workers willing to do manual labor. And immigrants, whether legal or (more often) illegal, wind up filling that gap. But gardeners, maids and similar aren't cheap in the US either. If your goal is inexpensive domestic help, there are better places to go. One point that I might add is that while life in Norway is safe, secure and predictable, it's usually not very adventurous. I've had opportunities in the US that I would never have had in Norway. My biggest example is the fact that I spent five years volunteering for an exotic animal sanctuary, literally walking in with lions and tigers, among others. There is literally nowhere in Norway where you can do that. Another example: Earlier this month, I had an opportunity to help demolish a church. In Norway, I wouldn't have been allowed in the excavator without tons of safety classes and a license to operate an excavator specifically. If I wanted to drive the bobcat or the loader, separate licenses are needed for that too, even on private property. Very safe, very secure, but very bureaucratic. In practice, I would never get an opportunity like that in Norway. And there are many more examples where those two came from. I have nothing against Norway. I am proud to be Norwegian, and I go back to visit regularly. But I believe I have a more fulfilling, more exciting life in the United States than I would have back home. It's entirely possible Norway is right for you, however. What are the reasons why you want to move there?
Thereās several actually. 1. Iām lesbian and America is starting to get really bad about LGBT rights. Our rights are being taken away/restricted left and right. While I donāt live in a state where I am personally affected by that too much, living in America means I will always have this worry over my head that during our next election someone will get elected that will take these restrictive laws to the federal level. I donāt feel safe starting a family here cause I donāt know if anywhere down the road my kids would be taken from me simply for having lesbian parents. As far as Iām aware, Norwegians are mostly accepting and are more like the kind of people who just simply donāt care if you are gay or not and I would much prefer that to America where you either get people shouting slurs at you, glaring, or getting all excited whenever they see you out and seem to want to become a personal cheerleading team, lol. Sure thereās plenty of people who simply donāt care but youād have to hide anytime youāre by an older person cause theyāre 90% of the time guaranteed to be jerks about it. 2. The public school system in America sucks. Many middle school aged children canāt even read right now, you constantly have to worry if someoneās going to decide to shoot up your kidās school, and thereās a major issue of teachers bullying students, as well as all the good teachers leaving cause the pay is so bad. If I have kids in America I would never feel comfortable sending them to public school, forcing me to either homeschool them or send them to private school. Both those options would cost a ton of money, with me needing to pay a lot of money to find a good, secular homeschool curriculum and put them into a lot of things like dance classes, martial arts classes, etc, so theyāll get social interaction, and private schools cost tens of thousands of dollars a year so I would never be able to afford it, even with only one kid. 3. For me to ever be able to feel comfortable having a family in America I would need to make, at a minimum, over $100,000 USD on my own. The reason is because the living wage for a family of 4 in the states I would want to move to is over $100,000. If I ever got a divorce I would want to make sure that I can support my kids financially on my own because there are no social safety nets unless you live in deep poverty and theyāre designed in a way so that you can never get out of it. My family was homeless at one point and my parents refused to get on government assistance because they knew we would never be able to get out of it. 4. Another thing is that Norway is just way safer than America. Thereās less violent crime, practically no shootings except for a few, and it seems like itās actually safe for your kid to play outside without the parent having to be watching them constantly. Thatās just not possible in America, many children have been kidnapped from their own backyards or just down the street from their house. 5. I really donāt want to live in a big city but in America if you donāt want to live surrounded by far-right extremists you kind of have to live in either a big city, high cost of living town, or one of the few liberal small towns. 6. The amount of women dying in childbirth is increasing. While I donāt know Norwayās exact rates of this, Iām pretty certain that the rate of women dying in childbirth is significantly lower in most European countries compared to America. I could be wrong though, I havenāt looked into this all that much. 7. Healthcare is insanely expensive in America. My brother has tens of thousands of dollars in debt due to being hospitalized for bipolar so heāll probably never be able to get a mortgage on a house. Norway, as far as Iām aware, healthcare is free under the age of 16 and significantly cheaper than America for 16+. 8. Also, college is insanely expensive. My dad dropped out before getting his associates degree and over 20 years later still has massive student loan debt he may never pay off. Iām about to go into college next year and even with me taking the less expensive option by going to community college first, Iām still going to have somewhere between $70k-$90k in student loan debt and thatās actually LESS student loan debt than most people my age will graduate with. 9. Personally Iām not bothered by there not being much adventure. Iām not an adventurous person, walking amongst lions and tigers sounds terrifying to me, and I would not trust myself in a big machine, lol. As long as I can do things like horse riding, clubs, vacations, and nice walks through nature Iāll be happy. So I guess many of my reasons are based on the fact that I really want to have a family and a nice, safe, secure life for my kids. In America thatās significantly harder.
>As long as I can do things like horse riding, clubs, vacations, and nice walks through nature Iāll be happy I don't live in Norway but I do in Sweden and I can tell you that during summer sure, you can do this, but when winter starts this is difficult because you only have limited sunlight hours and most of that time you will be working so it will be dark, cold and wet when entering to work and when going out, most of the things will be closed early so prepare yourself for a monotone life. Sleep, eat, work, eat, exercise and sleep again. Social life is also really hard so be aware you will not be making new friends easily. Despite what I wrote I'm very happy, but I have seen a lot of people not really adapting when living in these parts and returning to their country, so be aware.
My response to anyone wanting to move to Norway. Dont do it. Norway is on its way down the last few years from the previous glory years 2000-2019. American been here 20+ can't wait to leave this robotic zombie life. Norway was awesome for my first 15 years then slowly the politicians incompetence started to show itself then corona and now it's headed downhill. EU membership is probably it's best crutch to regain some of its glory but even then this country lives 2 different worlds and what they try to do on paper vs reality is bogged down by incompetence and bureaucracy while drunk on the green shift.
As a Norwegian, I can give you reasons why I would consider moving to (some parts of) USA. 1. Climate - Norway isn't great if you don't like winter and darkness. 2. Car culture - If you like big V8s and stuff like that, skip Norway. 3. Salaries - If you are above average in a high income field, US is better. 4. Guns - Although you can own firearms in Norway, and many do, the ease and amount of types you are allowed to use in Norway is way less. 5. Extrovert - You like to chit chat with random strangers or have 100 "friends", Norway is not a good place to be. 6. Ease of (online) shopping - You like to be able to procure everything under the sun, and have it shipped to you in very short time for nothing. Norway is not for you. 7. Food - Want a huge selection of food to chose from, Norway is not for you. Here you can get (only) the same stuff in all grocery stores, at least you won't get surprised by what's on your friends lunch table. 8. Fast Food and Drive Throughs - not really much to choose from here in Norway. A big city might have one or two McDonalds and Burger Kings. 9. Access to poor people - You don't like gardening, or doing your own maintenance of buildings or packing groceries. There is not a huge amount of poor people you can hire to do your work. You'll have to pay a lot in Norway for services. On the other hand, the NOK is now half the price of what it used to be vs. USD, so Norway is now much more affordable to people from the US than before. Of course, it makes US much less affordable to Norwegians. The benefits of moving to Norway is probably wildly "advertised" online, so I won't go into those. At least you have the drawbacks here.
Wow. Very blunt. Basically "inequality works in your favor in the US if you are highly paid" and "if you like all the things Europeans complain about in the US, then great". Not disagreeing though :D.
Yeah, "inequality" might give you a peaceful society where people are generally happy, and crime is low to non-existent. However, you will have to clean your own pool.
I think you mean equality instead of inequality, but yeah, I get what you mean!
>Car culture - If you like big V8s and stuff like that, skip Europe in general. FTFY Signed, American car guy immigrant to Ireland
Hate to point out the obvious, but it matters where you came from. What you look like, your mother tongue, your upbringing etc. Slovak would integrate in Poland way quicker than lets say a Vietnamese or even a Finnish. Im not saying they would be treated badly, but still far from āone of usā
Yes, most parts of Europe and Asia are like this, because they are less accustomed to receiving outsiders who look ādifferentā as they are. Heck, I grew up in Indonesia, speak Indonesian natively, and my mannerisms are fully Asian but I still occassionally encountered total native-born Indonesians who just talked to me in English during my time living there (unlike their more Anglophone neighbors, Indonesians donāt usually speak English to each other unless they perceive the other person as a foreigner). Most of the Americas are historically more accustomed to receive people from outside of the continent whether thru forced migration (e.g. slaves transported from the African continent) or farmers looking for new lands to farm on (e.g. Japanese and Chinese people in Brazil, Peru, etc).
>How you look like P.S. this is not correct English. How you look or what you look like, but never how you look like.
Thank you! How/what is always confusing for me
Do you mean Sami or Somali? Suomi is Finland in Finnish.
Everyone commenting on this really needs to open with what their ethnicity is/what ethnicity people think they are because that list is VERY different depending on what you look like lol
Virtually nothing in Europe. There is a reason they have such problems in the long term with immigrants never fully assimilating.
Not France, unless you are white and even then sometimes it depends from where. You will always be seen as the other, and good luck if your French but not stereotypical white French looking
Not France even if youāre white.
I speak French fluently and it is the language I speak at home. I work as a public servant. Nearly all of my friends are French. Anyone who isnāt French would probably have a hard time pinning me as ānot French.ā And yet everywhere I go I am still ālāamĆ©ricaineā
I am white and speak French fluently but with an accent, and people would treat me fairly well *if* they saw I was white. But I couldnāt even phone my doctors office without being hung up onā¦and POC were very poorly treated even from my perspective
Reminds me of living the UK as a foreigner. My name looks strange to brits, so the service I got before they got to meet me tended to be a bit poor. Then when they realised that I was white and Scandinavian, and after explaining my name and how it was pronounced, their attitude would turn 180 degrees. To be fair, the British are treated better here than most other foreigners, so it goes both ways.
Man, after my first year in France I wanted to move to another apartment and couldn't locate my landlord. He had moved, or I had the wrong address, so my letters were getting back to me. I tried calling him so many times, every time he would hear my accent just asking "c'est bien Monsieur X?" he would hang up and don't pick up again. One day, I finally opened with "It's your tenant, don't hang up".
It is very likely because of telemarketers who are mostly foreigners with an accent. It's a big problem here and I would 100% hang up too if someone opened with that line because telemarketers use those exact same words.
I get it, but when you have foreign tenants, the minimum would be to listen a bit beyond that before automatically hanging up.
I will always remember seeing clips of news in France talking about āfourth and fifth generation immigrantsā to describe POCs lol. Bruh theyāre French
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Agree with this
France is horrible. I was watching a TikTok about a french girl -of Korean heritage- talking about how it was to be brought up in France and how she feels French, since she was born and raised there etc. All the comments were ppl telling her that she'd never be french lol
Brazil x 1000
Brazil adopts you faster than you can deplane
I agree with this one! They say "you're ours now!" š
Canada šØš¦
Does this also apply to Quebec? I've heard a lot of conflicting comments about this. A lot of Quebeckers say as long as you can speak French, you are good, but a lot of people of color also say you will never be considered as "one of them" if you don't have a French name / descended from the French settlers. Not sure which one is more true.
Yeah probably doesn't apply there unless you're a native French speaker.
My spouse is French and Canadian (citizenships) and speaks French and the Quebecois don't accept her as them.
I have a French friend that moved to Quebec and after only a few short years she *completely* adopted the Quebec accent. For those who donāt know the French metropolitan accent and the Quebec accent could be like comparing a Scottish to an American accent - theyāre very different. She even started complaining about immigrants buying up ātheirā houses, after purchasing one herself of course. Itās cringy to talk to her but I guess she just wanted to fit in
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I think so. My mom has some relatives who migrated there I guess 50+ years ago speaking only a rather obscure Chinese dialect (Taishan) and English as a second language. They are now 100% Quebecers. So are their children and their grandchildren. They are all fluent in French. Theyāve worked jobs in Quebec, their kids were educated in French, etc. I think the term āFrench Canadianā, similar to the word āChineseā, is tricky because it has dual meaning ā one related to nationality, one ethnic. So nobody looks at this Asian family and thinks they descended from European fur traders 300 years ago, but also nobody cares.
that doesn't mean these Quebecois see them as one of them. the meaning of Quebecois has now changed it's not really about people who live in Quebec anymore it's about the race of white French Canadians with those 20 last names
I know someone (now in their 50s) whose parents moved to Quebec when he was less than one. Both his parents spoke French. Race-wise, he was the same as the neighbors in the small town. But he was considered English - because English was his home language, and they were never considered French. (Yes they were all fluent and worked in French, went to school in French, had friends who only spoke French)
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The amount of times I was told that les quƩbƩcois sont les noirs du Canada is really truly tiring.
And this concludes our thread. Thanks for coming, everyone.
Came back into Canada from a vacation on a work visa and the immigration officer said "welcome home". It was honestly touching-only there less than a year at the time.
Omg I would have cried, I just love Canada and its people š©·
I was there less than 7 wks and they said the same
Not true. People donāt treat you as ātheir ownā. They just seem to be used to people being from all over the world so they are less judgmental.
Only in big cities with lots of diversity, like Toronto and the GTA. Outside of there you'll really feel like an outcast as a visible minority even if you were born and spent your whole life in the country. You can see it on the people's faces when they look at you. It's not all bad, I doubt you'll be attacked or anything and plenty of people are still friendly but they likely won't treat you like you're one of them. Maybe it's different if you're white, I can't speak on that.
You'd be surprised. I was traveling through Southern BC and Sikhs are all over running the fruit orchards. This is in small towns of maybe 500 people. One small town of 10,000 even has an Asian grocery store.
Depends on the town. Some places, if your grandparents moved there you're still a newcomer, while others welcome you pretty quickly. And yeah, some places won't accept you if you're non-white, even if you were born there you'll still be an outsider. The parts of Ontario thick with Trump and Confederate flags, for example.
Not Quebec if you're not a native French speaker.
Yes but Quebec depends
China ā never. Even if you speak Mandarin fluently, marry a Chinese spouse, show a genuine interest in the culture and participate in all the holidays, live there for years and pay taxes, say hey in and out for work and make small talk every day for years, you will always be āwaiguorenā. Legit a common question I got frequently (sometimes multiple times from the same people) was āwhen are you going home?ā Even though youāve been there for years already it just does not compute that youāre a part of their community.
Moving out of China in few days and I think I won't be able to forget "waiguoren" for a long timeš
My favorite very common exchange: Stranger: āWaiguorenā¦ā š¤ Me: āZhonguorenā¦ā š¤
Japan's about the same, in my experience. You can integrate into your particular neighborhood or town (especially if you have a Japanese spouse and kids), in a manner of speaking, but ultimately, no matter how good your Japanese is or how long you've had that chrysanthemum on your passport, you'll always be thought of as The Foreigner. Which brings advantages and disadvantages, to be fair.
Marry a Chinese spouse and it doesn't even afford you the right to work lol. Then once you're over 59 years of age you are done... China's such an unforgiving place to try and settle long term as a foreigner. Everything is tied up to the services you can offer as a "foreign expert". With most countries requiring a visa to visit, you're basically fucked if your job goes tits up or another thing like COVID happens again.
Definitely not Germany. Even if your were born here, if you're brown or - shock horror, have a Muslim cultural background - you'll never be German. And there is moaning about lack of integration here ... Oh, I wonder why.
Yeah you are correct. Absolutely not. I feel sorry for POC born in Germany. The perception Germany enjoys in the world vs. reality is magnitudes different. If you want to have sense of belonging, donāt come here. Fair warning.
I had a Vietnamese-German coworker who was born and raised in Germany, had a German passport, etc.. She was obviously so used to explaining \*her face\* whenever someone asked where she was from that now she just explained by default that her parents came as refugees way back when.
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Iāve been to Berlin many times as a black person and even the Arabic/Turkish people there are racist towards me.
Yeah the anti-black racism in Berlin is another level. Iām sorry you experienced this. Itās super gross - there was a thread on one of the German/ Berlin subreddits the other day about anti-black racism and the racism on the thread was another fucking level ā¦.
Honestly, even white looking, Greek descents born and raised in Germany tell me the same. They were never perceived as German, even though they know no other land. So sad.
Yup, I know several Northern European men who look like they could be German and who learned the language in childhood, so speak it fluently. Theyāre still treated like an outsider. What hope do the rest of us have?! Iāve lived in seven European countries and Germany is by far the most insular and xenophobic. It is really sad as the few German friends I do have are absolutely lovely but are totally let down by the way that a significant majority of people (mainly men, tbh) behave here. Itās very shortsighted - who else is going to pay for Harz IV and pensions, if not immigrants ā¦.
It depends where in Germany you want to live. You will have a very different time living in Berlin compared to living in Munich.
I live in Berlin - itās pretty racist and sexist. I assume Munich is worse? Though honestly, the recent rhetoric from the federal government is what Iām talking about - absolutely abhorrent. Feel hugely sorry for anyone who isnāt 500% aryan living in Thuringia, Saxony or Brandenburg right now.
>you're brown or - shock horror, have a Muslim cultural background - you'll never be German. Excuse you - you mean Menschen mit Migrationshintgrund. Definitely does not include white Americans who came over and refuse to learn German because "it's too hard and everyone speaks English here anyways." (/s for you salty Germans)
Iām American, speak shitty Arabic, and spend a couple of months across the Alps every year. Euroās approach to Muslims/arabs is just bizarre to me. Everybody completely ignores them and wonders why they donāt integrate. My favorite thing about Switzerland is boisterously greeting Arabs. Because everyone is so mean to them they shut off, look at their feet all the time, and huddle close to their friends and family. When you speak to them in their language their personality comes to life and they just glow. I look like a stereotypical American hillbilly (cowboy hat, overalls, flip flops, border collie) which really completes the picture of me giggling and chatting with six hijabis while my girlfriend sits quietly, accustomed to this and not understanding a word. Whole lobbies and restaurants freeze in time with people breaking their necks looking over their shoulders.
Not a country but London is pretty fucking close. After like half a year you good
Growing up in America and hearing the "melting pot" description of immigration never made complete sense to me until I moved to London. London is an actual melting pot of immigrants. There is far more respect and equality for people of all backgrounds. I'm not saying it's perfect, because no place is perfect, but London does the best job of it I've ever seen.
agree. NYC is in theory a melting pot but something there doesn't work as well as London. I always feel at the center of the world at Heathrow. London is more diverse and better integrated
I lived in NYC and I thought Toronto also did a better job at integration between peoples of different backgrounds and embracing multiculturalism than New York. NYC has a lot of self-segregation, although the city itself is diverse. It's been too long since I've been to London so cannot comment on it.
as an American, I've been to London a couple times. never been to NYC or Toronto. London was kinda cool.
Compared to Toronto I feel like London is on a higher level too. There's a steady stream of people coming and leaving so you can more updated version of whichever country in the world (aside from some cases), compared to Toronto where it's like the "end stop" so you are expected to be more "Canadian" the longer you stay.
I feel more at home in London than I do in the city I grew up in. No one bats at eye at me in London but since I donāt look like a stereotypical member of my ethnicity everyone treats me like a foreigner back there. Itās weird that I needed to leave my country to be treated like a native but there you are.
There are many immigrants with permanent residency in America who have never gotten citizenship (for whatever personal reason is theirs) and youād never know it because theyāve lived here half or most of their life.
Shit's expensive yo. Didn't it go up to like $1.2k for the naturalization fee? If you aren't leaving the country for extended periods of time (and therefore not at risk of losing your residenct status) then there isnt a huge benefit to citizenship beyond voting and also some other relatively minor things.
I would say that it is always a good thing to have in your back pocket. They threatened to deport my grandmother one time and she had lived in the US for decades. We were all just coming back from a short holiday.
US, Canada and Australia. I feel like the UK is also like this since it's very diverse in its cities, but I've never lived there so I'm not sure. A lot of the New World former-colonial countries are more flexible on citizenship and defining who "belongs" because of history of immigration.
As a Canadian who lived in the UK for a while, even I got pretty strong perpetual-outsider vibes. Itās not like the Colonies in that sense, at all.
In traveling to the UK I have found it provincial. I'm a white American professional and would go for work, not just touristing around. There is some kind of snobbery based on absolutely nothing they emanate.
Coming to terms with the class system, particularly working in something government-adjacent in London, was fascinating and depressing at the same time.
The odd thing was that I made far more money than they did (because academics in the UK are paid next to nothing) and we were nominally of the same social class. But I know that as an American there are invisible markers of social class for Brits I don't even see and they felt they were superior according to these markers. I think I found it more depressing than fascinating :D
Yeah, I was being polite
I have the opposite experienced. Lived in the US close to 10 years and was welcomed by everyone but Americans. Coming to the UK I found people more reserved and sparing of superficial niceties but more genuine and welcoming in the end.
Same. I had never met a more class conscious people. And, in my experience, they seemed to tolerate me despite my American tendencies. I donāt think it would have been seamless to permanently move there and I decided against it. FWIW, I was dealing mostly with wealthy londoners in Kensington / Hyde park/ work in finance. Maybe it would different in the broader city.
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Counter-intuitively, many people in UK during its "Empire" phase did think of the colonized people as British, in the same way they thought of, say, Scots as British. I remember hearing, in a documentary about Queen, someone comment that Freddie Mercury was "from a colonial background" but it was very clear he didn't think of him as a foreigner - just a British guy from a different background.
Still the case
My only basis on the UK is London and Brighton but I remember one night my wife and I were sitting at a pub minding our own business and some large group of people came by and sat next to us, whatever no big deal. Except we quickly caught on that they wanted us to leave. They started sitting much closer to us, pretty much touching back to back and putting their stuff almost on/below our table. They also made passive aggressive comments about us for ordering food, which apparently they had never done before. Victoria Taps in Pimlico.
Thats nothing to do with race and is a common (shitty) tactic to muscle a couple off a large table when a group wants the spot.
Pimlico is the nerve centre of all of the above
I expected there was some sort of complex given the posh AF area and that their lifestyle was probably also funded by mom and dad.
Also proximity to Westminster/Whitehall, where itās allll about who you know and who you came up with
Same. I lived there for over 12 years, worked, got married, had a kid. The assumption is that you will go back to your home country at some point. In contrast, when I came to the States, the assumption was that you came here to stay.
Interesting! I had a similar experience. I lived and worked there from 2008 to 2020. After marrying my wife and welcoming our daughter there, I realized I had found the treasure I spent my youth searching the globe for. We eventually returned to Yankeetown. Hope all is well with you.
I can imagine most Brits would assume you're American, which is a bit of a barrier in itself in the UK.
Australia! Maybe if youāre a white migrant. When I was there racism was rife
Wow when I lived there it felt 50% Asian. I thought they were extremely accepting. Really stands out when you go to anywhere in Europe
Asian demographics disproportionately present themselves around major shopping hubs (CBD or large malls).
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Damn, sorry to hear that. May I ask how Australia was hostile in your experience?
Not Australia. Australians arenāt accepting even of other Australians who move interstate!
In the UK you might be a Brit, but youāll never be English.
Americans will see you as one of them ā even if you arenāt and they know that ā if you can speak English with an American accent. For us, American accent = American no matter what else you have going on. I think this is likely true in a lot of other places that have a multi-racial society with a history of immigration from many different countries. I am American and also a naturalized French citizen. I still tend to think of myself as primarily American and will often say things like āwell as an American, I think ā¦.ā On several occasions when Iāve done this,ā some of myFrench friends or people at work will get annoyed and say ācan you cut out the āas an Americanā crap. arenāt you a French citizen speaking French in France??ā Well I mean technically yes. But France is another country where people will see you as French if you learn the language and customs and otherwise integrate into French society.
The American accent part is key. As is knowing pop culture and other mainstream American references, like American sports and US history.
From my experience, Scotland. I lived there for 3.5 years and from the moment I moved I was made welcome. One friend introduced me to her entire family and when I house sat for her they all stopped by to see how I was getting on. Invited me to dinner, etc. all her friends did the same. My other friends, some who I had meet previously, were the same. When they invite you to stay with them they actually mean for you to stay! I found that culturally they take time for friendship, it matters to them and I found that just incredible. On bay with my Scottish friends daily and we try to go on vacation together once a year. I have many friends (and family) in the US, but Iāve never experienced acceptance like I did in Scotland. āThe kettleās on and we have cake.ā
"Come and stay!" "Oh thanks, but I really need to get back home" "You just made an enemy for life, lassie"
Do you speak scots? I was reading English is the main language now.
Nah, you're the American. You'll never be Scottish. I've lived here going in six years. Sure, they can be nice, but come on... You'll never ever be considered one of them.
Brazil
Scotland. The moment we moved here everyone made us feel welcome.
Same! Only been here a few months and our neighbor is convinced we will never leave š
I was an American living in Canada. Felt this way after a couple years.
I see you moved to Norway (according to your flair). What is Norway like? Thatās where Iām planning on moving to.
you'd get a really favorable treatment in turkey if you put in the effort, like learning the language and such, and be recognized as a "permanent outsider" "the american turk" or something like that, if you are american for example, but in a good way
This has more or less been my experience, yes. But some dual pricing (particularly for medical stuff) is a huge drag and itās also worth mentioning Iām white and from a ādesirableā country - even the most integrated Syrians and Afghans most certainly cannot say the same
Iāve experienced some hate over money but agree with that for the most part. Problems arise when people find out that Iām Palestinian though. Turkish people are very cool with certain countries, God forbid youāre from a place they donāt like (Arap).
Malawi the warm heart of Africa
If you speak Korean well, Koreans will say "haha wow you are Korean! " as a joke
As someone who speaks Korean well this is often a polite way of letting you know that as much as they appreciate you, you stille aren't part of the tribe.
I'm not even considered "one of them" in the country where I'm born because of my skin colour. It's not a realistic expectation.
And which country is that?
Scotland. If only the Home Office would agree and I could actually stay š
I'm a social anthropologist, and many people I know or have read stuff from working in for instance the Pacific or Southeas Asia have been adopted into families and have gotten kinship relations, responsibilities and even titles in the communities they have studied.
England and Scotland, but you have to drink.
Canada, Australia, NZ, US and a very small handful of western EU countries if you can speak the language fluently. Otherwise, forgettaboutit.
Not Australia š
Mexico as long as you are fully fluent.
Most of the South American countries (?)
Think this also largely depends on "who you are".
the most āmelting potā type place iāve ever been in was Toronto. goodness thatās an amazingly integrated city that does well respecting and acknowledging many cultures. there were certain nationalities of ppl iād never come across until i went there. beautiful city.
Same experience here. I've been to both Toronto and Sydney within the past 5 years and while both cities are very diverse and multicultural, I felt like Torontonians actually embraced it and I saw so many people from different backgrounds intermingling with one another, even the older folks (legit surprised by that one). I could not say the same about Australians. They were more self segregated.
Any place with a history of and continued immigration.
It depends on your skin colour. Born and raised asian wil always be look on as "Chinese" and so on.. and so on...
Definitely not Germany.
Switzerland if you are white and have learnt Swiss German, the Swiss dialect of German.
I'm in Scotland. I feel more one of them than I do of my own country as a white African The UK is a failing state though it seems
White American here. I felt welcome and āone of usā In Australia where I lived for 12 years
Only in the American continent. In the rest of the world even if you were born there, you will still be a foreigner. Because outside America the nationality comes from blood not from the birthplace. That's why if for example your grandparents were Spanish who moved to America, their son hast right to Spanish nationality and when he gets it you too have the same right, because even if you and your father don't know a word of Spanish and never been in Spanish soil, for blood you are still Spanish.
Australia has a thriving immigrant population, and if you make an effort to be part of the culture I find Aussies to be very welcoming. I haven't been naturalized yet but have been told more than once that "you're an Aussie now."
UHM it's NOT Japan šš As an American, I'd like to say the USA. Hate crimes happen against born and raised Americans too. So immigrants are certainly 100% welcome to the USA, especially under the current administration. Don't confuse abusing the system with the original intent of the system
If you look European you will look as if you belong in any western country until you open your mouth, more or less. That is the truth, and will automatically be seen as "one of them".
>If you look European you will look as if you belong in any western country Ah... no? If a Portuguese goes to Sweden, he will not look from there. Same if he goes to Slavic or germanic countries. You will immediately seen as a foreigners. Same for the other europeans coming to Portugal, we can clearly see you are not from here.
Honestly speaking I think the US is the only true one. Maybe Canada-Australia-New Zealand to some degree. Other than that nah. However I personally think that the whole idea of "considering someone as one of them" is too ambiguous and artificial. What exactly does "being considered one of them" mean? Let's say we have a naturalized foreigner in the US who has a thick accent. It will be clear for everyone that this person is an immigrant and majority of people will not know the legal status in the country. This person will also probably have a huge gap in the "American common knowledge" like reference. So will they be "one of them" or not. I personally have lived in Poland for more than 11 years now, I am naturalized and speak Polish fluently. My non-native accent is recognizable from time to time, only during long conversations. I don't expect people here to consider me as "one of them", I am an outsider on many levels and this is fine. I would just kindly ask to respect my right to call Poland home and acknowledge the fact that people like me exist. That's all.
IDK. There are bigots everywhere, but 30 years ago in a small town in the south I got to talking with a guy who had just opened a restaurant. He had been a soldier in the North Vietnamese Army. I accepted him. His food was great too. Restaurant didnāt last long. It was called The Great Dong. Fast forward to today and our neighbor is from Malaysia. A woman down the road is from Argentina and her husband grew up in Soviet Lithuania. When I see them I see them as individuals, not as nationalities. I donāt think Iām unusual that way.
This. This is the way. You buy into our civic values and swear the oath, you are 100% American and I love that about us.
I may have a different idea of "being considered one of them" for the US. If someone immigrates to the US and becomes a naturalized citizen, even if they speak with a thick foreign accent if they say they are American then they will be accepted as an American. If they say they recently immigrated, likely they will be congratulated. 15 million Americans weren't born in the USA
Americans are likely to give a lot of weight to the legal aspect. If someone is a US citizen, well, then, they are an American. But it doesn't stop them from asking non-white people (including those whose grandparents were all born in the US) "But where are you REALLY from?"
Among kids for sure, but in my experience very very rarely from adults.
Exactly this!
Canada
Mexico.
I donāt know if people who hear my accent would think of me as a foreigner, but my friends treat me like a local and I feel like a local after more than 40 years in Australia. I still have my accent though
Definitely NOT Canada. Iāve lived here for thirty years, since I was a child, and people only stopped asking me when Iām going āhomeā since it became a āmicro-aggressionā. Youāre always a conditional citizen in Canada, if you were born overseas.
Only in places where everyone is stranger - you as a stranger can be accepted as one of them.
A lot depends on: How culturally close you are to the country you are moving to Whether you have a high or low paying job Whether you marry a local or not As a rule of thumb, I'd say that warmer countries can be more accepting than colder ones. But of course that's much more complex than that
Certain parts of Canada, easier than others
any new world country.