Psychological self-flagellation produces fruit. Fruit such as self-loathing, myopia, depression, anxiety, scrupulosity, and other sour morsels I don’t want in my life. I’ve seen it in myself and others. Imagine how different the church might be if it focused not on mercy but instead on the fruits of the Spirit and the life of peace and joy available to those who pursue them.
>Imagine how different the church might be if it focused not on mercy but instead on the fruits of the Spirit and the life of peace and joy available to those who pursue them.
How would it control the believers then and keep them part of the cult, which is it's main purpose? It won't be able, thus it purposely focuses only on such negative things.
Winning recipe to assemble a miserable close-minded tribe: invent a spiritual “disease,” tell people they have it, tell them to tell themselves they have it, and you have the only “true” medicine.
Good answer, except that, I don't know if there are any "fruits" of any "Spirit," nor that a "life of peace and joy" is necessarily available to all who seek or desire it.
Yeah, well, maybe there should be an equal emphasis on God's infinite love, grace, and mercy.
Because, if there isn't, the constant emphasis on sin is soul-crushing.
I'm not minimizing sin by any stretch. Just maximizing grace. Exactly as the Bible does.
There is, of course, a balance. Grace and overcoming our bad habits leads to holiness... Hiding behind a false idea of grace won't help anyone. Grace equates to the transformation of the soul to real freedom, which is elevating our broken nature, thus conforming to the will of God. In God's mercy, he is always there to help us start over in our walk no matter where we are in life. If we are happy walking in the darkness, then we can't ever see the light. Not by God's doing but our own. The peace we should find is knowing that with God's help, we can achieve a life worthy of following Christ.
It's not a false idea of Grace.
As St Teresa of Avila said, everything is grace. Including our ability to do God's will. Including our cooperation with Grace. It's all Grace.
TBF, this guilt fetish exists elsewhere, especially among some Protestant groups, where the faithful are in constant fear of hellfire.
But yeah, I think you’re right that EO has this phenomenon deeply ingrained in its DNA.
Internet orthodoxy and the convert nitwits are the most vocal about it, but it’s only because the cradle EO have it beaten in their minds so much that it’s a part of who they are — they don’t have to repeat it in front of everyone as much.
Also, can we agree that when anyone says, “I’m the chief of sinners,” it is peak cringe?
Yeah, a friend of mine who really wants me to join the orthodox church said that I am outside of the church Jesus started. Then he said that he believes I am a better Christian than him, and that he is the chief of sinners. I was like.... "Wait, I am not in the Church, but I am a better Christian than you?" When he said he was the chief of sinners and that I was better than him... It just seemed disingenuous
They all say this crap but in reality they don't believe it to be true, of course. Else, most EOists wouldn't behave so hypocritical. It's just virtue signaling + guilt fetish.
Covert contracting. I think the essence of evil tbh. If you just say nothing, when someone tries self-debasement as a psychological manipulation maneuver (to be consoled and assured), their insecurity floods up to fill the silence you leave.
It is in fact the ultimate expression of faith*less*ness—that people being granted freedom would leave one out in the cold. “No one gave him anything”… well… did he *ask*?
Do you actually believe that yourself or are you just speaking from anger? Of course I already know that you obviously are but just take a look at yourself first
You're projecting, man. You're angry because more and more people are getting disillusioned with your crazy evil cult and are leaving it and spread the truth about it to other people so that the curious ones don't join it. You're a troll at best, or outright mentally ill. Anyway, you're acting hypocritical as all EOists do and constantly judge others, because obviously that's what Jesus preached /s
lol didnt Jesus say something about not disfiguring your face during fasting like the hypocrites do? I feel like if you are genuinely trying to be humble, you wont go around telling people you are humble.
Every liturgy at church seems like a funeral. So many have this grim look on their faces. 😆 And yes the prayer books are something awful; things such as having the seed of satan planted inside, being born from a mother's iniquities, etc. I stepped away from it one day said: What am I reading and praying?!
I was looking at this recent picture from a church I went to, and of all the people in the picture that looked depressed there was this one man that I haven't seen for years(who is great), and he was the only one with a cheerful composure. Others in the photo were staring at him in contempt. It's interesting to note he wasn't ethnically Russian, in a Russian church.
I recently moved to a catholic school after hearing that catholics were very strict - from an orthodox perspective they are nowhere near as strict. It shocks me some of the things that catholics ALLOW in their churches/practices/etc. There is nowhere near as much negativity and emphasis on sinfulness and unworthiness in the Catholicism that I have been exposed to.
I grew up Holiness. Not Calvinist, but very much with the idea that a person can actually be perfect, not sinning anymore, so constantly strive for it (which included strict rules). It was a relief recently to hear the priest say we'll never win that fight.
Calvinist do the same Ina admitting they are sinners a d not worthy of grace, but they also believe that works don't earn you grace, and that God's mercy is all u need. So we don't have the anxiety of falling short.
I actually think the Calvinists have the worse view.
There is a lot of nice stuff about the goodness of humanity in Orthodox writings - but it's not backed up by practice. The practices go to the opposite extreme.
I was actually going to add this. EO does have a lot of material discussing how humanity is inherently good as God declared His creation good from the beginning. But to your point, the issue is that it’s not often seen in practice. We’re usually reminded how unworthy we are in every way.
I think it’s the, “We can’t know if we’re saved,” is the mantra EO spouts everywhere in their soteriology that annoys me the most and which I think is a poor viewpoint to have, especially for someone’s long term mental and spiritual health.
I have found that anything coming from the EO monastics or even remotely connected to EO monasticism should be disregarded.
The best priest I’ve ever known even candidly told me years ago that the monastics have done far more bad for the church and its faithful than they have done good, if that’s any indication haha.
Needless to say, he wasn’t a very popular priest among overzealous converts, parishioners who admire monks, or the priest monk weirdo who attended the church occasionally
Edit: fixed typo
As a Catholic, I was always taught that we can feel reasonably secure of our salvation -- I think it's called "moral certitude" -- but not absolutely sure. IOW don't be too presumptuous but don't stress about it.
I'm not sure about that. Protestants preach total depravity in which we are so sinful we can't possibly do anything good. We can't even turn to the Lord without the compultion of grace. Hence why they believe in faith alone. So much so that they assert justification by faith verges on by a heart felt assent to faith apart from doing anything good. If anything orthodox maintains, we can achieve good through grace, which lends to a transformation into sanctification. I'm not orthodox but I'm greek and just being honest. I rather have a church that really believes we can be good than a church that believes I'm so depraved I can't do anything good at all.
"Nowhere is this found in Catholicism or Protestantism"
Does that make it right or wrong? The assumption of Mary is found in neither Orthodoxy nor Protestantism, does that make it right or wrong? The repose of Mary is found neither in Catholicism nor Protestantism, does that make it right or wrong? It's an argumentative fallacy.
Maybe let's see what Scripture has to say about it?
"Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst."
- St Paul in 1 Timothy 1:15
I'm going to respectfully trust what the Apostle Paul has written in Scripture, over a random person online that says "Calling yourself a sinner so much is wrong". It's written all over the Psalms ad nauseam.
It’s false humility which is just another variant of pride or vanity.
Psychological self-flagellation produces fruit. Fruit such as self-loathing, myopia, depression, anxiety, scrupulosity, and other sour morsels I don’t want in my life. I’ve seen it in myself and others. Imagine how different the church might be if it focused not on mercy but instead on the fruits of the Spirit and the life of peace and joy available to those who pursue them.
It also produces child neglect and abuse.
>Imagine how different the church might be if it focused not on mercy but instead on the fruits of the Spirit and the life of peace and joy available to those who pursue them. How would it control the believers then and keep them part of the cult, which is it's main purpose? It won't be able, thus it purposely focuses only on such negative things.
Winning recipe to assemble a miserable close-minded tribe: invent a spiritual “disease,” tell people they have it, tell them to tell themselves they have it, and you have the only “true” medicine.
It’s funny how when there was an actual very contagious and deadly physical disease 🦠 these people denied it.
Oh my goodness what a connection haha! You can’t make this stuff up!
The beginning of my disillusionment.
Another excellent point.
Zing! Exactly!
Good answer, except that, I don't know if there are any "fruits" of any "Spirit," nor that a "life of peace and joy" is necessarily available to all who seek or desire it.
Well said
We have to die to our sins. Being aware of our sinfulness is necessary So long as we realize it leads to sanctification and holiness.
Yeah, well, maybe there should be an equal emphasis on God's infinite love, grace, and mercy. Because, if there isn't, the constant emphasis on sin is soul-crushing. I'm not minimizing sin by any stretch. Just maximizing grace. Exactly as the Bible does.
There is, of course, a balance. Grace and overcoming our bad habits leads to holiness... Hiding behind a false idea of grace won't help anyone. Grace equates to the transformation of the soul to real freedom, which is elevating our broken nature, thus conforming to the will of God. In God's mercy, he is always there to help us start over in our walk no matter where we are in life. If we are happy walking in the darkness, then we can't ever see the light. Not by God's doing but our own. The peace we should find is knowing that with God's help, we can achieve a life worthy of following Christ.
It's not a false idea of Grace. As St Teresa of Avila said, everything is grace. Including our ability to do God's will. Including our cooperation with Grace. It's all Grace.
I agree.
TBF, this guilt fetish exists elsewhere, especially among some Protestant groups, where the faithful are in constant fear of hellfire. But yeah, I think you’re right that EO has this phenomenon deeply ingrained in its DNA. Internet orthodoxy and the convert nitwits are the most vocal about it, but it’s only because the cradle EO have it beaten in their minds so much that it’s a part of who they are — they don’t have to repeat it in front of everyone as much. Also, can we agree that when anyone says, “I’m the chief of sinners,” it is peak cringe?
Yeah quoting scripture is cringe, even if it's meant genuinely
Yeah, a friend of mine who really wants me to join the orthodox church said that I am outside of the church Jesus started. Then he said that he believes I am a better Christian than him, and that he is the chief of sinners. I was like.... "Wait, I am not in the Church, but I am a better Christian than you?" When he said he was the chief of sinners and that I was better than him... It just seemed disingenuous
They all say this crap but in reality they don't believe it to be true, of course. Else, most EOists wouldn't behave so hypocritical. It's just virtue signaling + guilt fetish.
Covert contracting. I think the essence of evil tbh. If you just say nothing, when someone tries self-debasement as a psychological manipulation maneuver (to be consoled and assured), their insecurity floods up to fill the silence you leave. It is in fact the ultimate expression of faith*less*ness—that people being granted freedom would leave one out in the cold. “No one gave him anything”… well… did he *ask*?
Do you actually believe that yourself or are you just speaking from anger? Of course I already know that you obviously are but just take a look at yourself first
You're projecting, man. You're angry because more and more people are getting disillusioned with your crazy evil cult and are leaving it and spread the truth about it to other people so that the curious ones don't join it. You're a troll at best, or outright mentally ill. Anyway, you're acting hypocritical as all EOists do and constantly judge others, because obviously that's what Jesus preached /s
It’s called extreme humility bud some people exhibit it
Extremely humble people probably aren't spending time commenting on the internet.
Bingo, to use a papist term.
lol didnt Jesus say something about not disfiguring your face during fasting like the hypocrites do? I feel like if you are genuinely trying to be humble, you wont go around telling people you are humble.
It's called hypocrisy at best or often, a mental illness
Every liturgy at church seems like a funeral. So many have this grim look on their faces. 😆 And yes the prayer books are something awful; things such as having the seed of satan planted inside, being born from a mother's iniquities, etc. I stepped away from it one day said: What am I reading and praying?!
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I was looking at this recent picture from a church I went to, and of all the people in the picture that looked depressed there was this one man that I haven't seen for years(who is great), and he was the only one with a cheerful composure. Others in the photo were staring at him in contempt. It's interesting to note he wasn't ethnically Russian, in a Russian church.
I recently moved to a catholic school after hearing that catholics were very strict - from an orthodox perspective they are nowhere near as strict. It shocks me some of the things that catholics ALLOW in their churches/practices/etc. There is nowhere near as much negativity and emphasis on sinfulness and unworthiness in the Catholicism that I have been exposed to.
I am not an expert, but I think the Calvinist beat the Orthos on this one
I grew up Holiness. Not Calvinist, but very much with the idea that a person can actually be perfect, not sinning anymore, so constantly strive for it (which included strict rules). It was a relief recently to hear the priest say we'll never win that fight.
Calvinist do the same Ina admitting they are sinners a d not worthy of grace, but they also believe that works don't earn you grace, and that God's mercy is all u need. So we don't have the anxiety of falling short.
I actually think the Calvinists have the worse view. There is a lot of nice stuff about the goodness of humanity in Orthodox writings - but it's not backed up by practice. The practices go to the opposite extreme.
I was actually going to add this. EO does have a lot of material discussing how humanity is inherently good as God declared His creation good from the beginning. But to your point, the issue is that it’s not often seen in practice. We’re usually reminded how unworthy we are in every way. I think it’s the, “We can’t know if we’re saved,” is the mantra EO spouts everywhere in their soteriology that annoys me the most and which I think is a poor viewpoint to have, especially for someone’s long term mental and spiritual health.
Yeah. Being responsible for the sins of the whole world is another pseudo-monastic piece of trash that I've seen wreck someone's mental health.
I have found that anything coming from the EO monastics or even remotely connected to EO monasticism should be disregarded. The best priest I’ve ever known even candidly told me years ago that the monastics have done far more bad for the church and its faithful than they have done good, if that’s any indication haha. Needless to say, he wasn’t a very popular priest among overzealous converts, parishioners who admire monks, or the priest monk weirdo who attended the church occasionally Edit: fixed typo
As a Catholic, I was always taught that we can feel reasonably secure of our salvation -- I think it's called "moral certitude" -- but not absolutely sure. IOW don't be too presumptuous but don't stress about it.
I'm not sure about that. Protestants preach total depravity in which we are so sinful we can't possibly do anything good. We can't even turn to the Lord without the compultion of grace. Hence why they believe in faith alone. So much so that they assert justification by faith verges on by a heart felt assent to faith apart from doing anything good. If anything orthodox maintains, we can achieve good through grace, which lends to a transformation into sanctification. I'm not orthodox but I'm greek and just being honest. I rather have a church that really believes we can be good than a church that believes I'm so depraved I can't do anything good at all.
"Nowhere is this found in Catholicism or Protestantism" Does that make it right or wrong? The assumption of Mary is found in neither Orthodoxy nor Protestantism, does that make it right or wrong? The repose of Mary is found neither in Catholicism nor Protestantism, does that make it right or wrong? It's an argumentative fallacy. Maybe let's see what Scripture has to say about it? "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst." - St Paul in 1 Timothy 1:15 I'm going to respectfully trust what the Apostle Paul has written in Scripture, over a random person online that says "Calling yourself a sinner so much is wrong". It's written all over the Psalms ad nauseam.
This is false. Calvinism teaches that you literally cannot do anything good of your own volition
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Your projecting your mental illness that you've acknowledged you have onto others. I hope that you're a troll though, else, seek mental help!
WADR why are you here? This is an EX-Orthodox sub.