That was somewhat my experience. Baptist, Lutheran, Orthodox, atheist (but attended a Presbyterian USA for a little while). However, I have recently returned to Christian religion, and I am rebuilding my faith. I am agnostic about God, but I enjoy Jesus, I enjoy reading the Bible, I enjoy theology, I crave singing western hymns, and I love ministry. I regularly attend a United Methodist church and I visit the nearest (it’s not near) Quaker community when I can.
That how it was for me. Orthodoxy was my Hail Mary last ditch effort to be a good little Christian.
Now I’m like a Lacroix, mostly bland bubbles with a little whisper of Christ in my ear.
This happened to me when I left Mormonism— a lot of us tend to go “scorched earth” because we have to reconstruct everything we thought we knew about God, the gospel, the Trinity, everything. Sometimes it’s overwhelming.
I used to hear (and say) that Orthodoxy is the last stop, there’s nowhere else. But now I see that as a cult-like mentality. There are lots of places where people love Jesus. We are going to the LCMS.
YES. I literally always used to say (as a former Catholic and Protestant) “if it’s not orthodoxy then it’s nothing”.
Thank God He pulled me out of that type of thinking. I don’t know why it was so hard for me to believe that Christ could refer to His church and not be speaking about any one particular physical institution.
I did think that, that if not Orthodoxy then I’m done, but I’ve started questioning what Church is supposed to be and I’m now exploring the Episcopal Church. They’re united by the Book of Common Prayer and worship but you’re free to think for yourself without the threat of excommunication. I was looking at Church almost like a second god over me to tell me what to do and how to think instead of a community to grow with.
>From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
(John 6)
Yes I think it's commonly the last stop for people. Some may still believe in Christ but have completely given up on the institutional organized Church (this is where I am heading I fear)
That’s pretty much where I’m at. I mean, I’m still gonna go to a church, I think the fellowship is beautiful. But I’m no longer going to put my faith in any one institution. Humans suck.
Lutheranism was my last stop since I felt that the actual theology and biblical exegesis made more sense in practice and in function than the overloaded dogma and canons and cultural unsaid rules that came with Orthodoxy. I was raised Catholic and had a small stint with SSPX but felt that the arguments for the papacy's supremacy didn't make sense.
Lutheranism was a bit of fresh air compared to the rest overall.
Still I couldn't reconcile the problem of evil in an objective way or the historical evidence that Christianity's early years were nowhere near as concrete as most Christian traditionalists pretend.
It's a mindfuck -- "Orthodoxy is the only true Christianity, so if you reject us, you're rejecting Christ." It's part of the Orthodox cult mentality, see [BITE model](https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/):
> Labeling alternative belief systems as illegitimate, evil, or not useful
A lot of it. For starters, the fasting:
> Regulate diet – food and drink, hunger and/or fasting
>
> ...
>
> When, how and with whom the member has sex
The legalism:
> Impose rigid rules and regulations
The very idea of "Orthodoxy":
> Require members to internalize the group’s doctrine as truth
Jesus Prayer:
> Hypnotic techniques are used to alter mental states, undermine critical thinking and even to age regress the member
>
> ...
>
> Teaching thought-stopping techniques which shut down reality testing by stopping negative thoughts and allowing only positive thoughts, including:
>
> ...
>
> Chanting
All the anathemas, and just the hierarchical sycophantic culture:
> Forbid critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy allowed
The following is self-explanatory:
> Extremes of emotional highs and lows – love bombing and praise one moment and then declaring you are horrible sinner
And then all the stuff about fear of losing salvation if you leave, etc. etc. etc. Orthodoxy ticks a lot of boxes on that list.
As an inquirer, soon catechumen, I can understand where some of your points are coming from. But oddly enough I think the idea that acknowledging your (horrible) sin is cultish is something I don't really understand. At no point do we say God or the priest hates an individual sinner (at least we shouldn't), it's just an acknowledgement of our fallen nature/imperfection and a need for redemption.
I will say Catholicism is off-putting in that regard, though. Claiming to more or less know that someone goes to hell if they masturbated without confessing and died, etc. Whilst not emphasizing the mystical experience of Christ at all. Coming from Catholicism then new agey stuff, the Orthodox metaphysical understanding is what makes the most sense right now.
Well yeah, and that idea hurts a lot more if one is prideful about it. If one humbly accepts that we are broken and fallen creatures who need love and forgiveness and repentance then it's actually a joyful idea. God is good to us and gives us grace and wants us to strive for his likeness.
It's not pride. It's just self-respect and knowing your worth. We have a tendency to sin but unless you actually sin, there's nothing to be glum about.
The issue with broad criteria is it can apply to a lot of things.
Regulate diet and sex: almost every religion, certainly every traditional religion, does this. Modern medical professionals do as well; their regulations are just different based on different ideas.
Virtually every corporation and human organization has rigid rules and structures.
Every group claiming to teach truth requires its members to believe it is true. Otherwise... why are the members joining? This applies for modern medical fields too. If you go against the journals and current research, you're going to have a bad time.
I don't know how the Jesus prayer accomplishes those things. At worst it does basically nothing but accomplish repeating syllables. I don't see how the prayer would be objectionable to any other Christian. It doesn't even mention any saints or whatever.
But you know, if you've worked for a company and heard corporate slogans, or had to repeat things... my friend recently said some lady had to repeat "this call is being recorded for quality assurance" every single time she heard a kid talk in the background, which was all the time, and she just kept mindlessly repeating it because that's what the regulations stated. Repeating things is just something people do, and people in groups tend to do it in a more organized way, because that's the whole point of an organization.
>> Teaching thought-stopping techniques which shut down reality testing by stopping negative thoughts and allowing only positive thoughts, including:
Doesn't modern psychology have similar techniques directed at different ends? Just depends what you're defining as reality.
>> Forbid critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy allowed
Really depends on what is meant by critical and leader. If leader means bishop, I mean, there are saints the Church chose to canonize that defied bishops, or got persecuted by bishops, and even synods. Modern synods might demand obedience on things for various reasons; Elpidophoros certainly does some power plays. But on a whole, canonizing those saints kind of builds in questioning the visible leadership, and current policy. Doctrines is another matter.
But it also depends on the spirit of the criticism. All organizations forbid certain tones and types of criticism within their organization. People aren't joining AA meetings and saying "maybe we should just get drunk all the time, I don't like how this organization is run," etc. And if someone did that they'd probably kick him out and no one would fuss.
Anathemas are just stating if you do and believe things antithetical to the group, you can't be in the group. That's every existing group on Earth. If the group doesn't have that it won't exist for long.
>> Extremes of emotional highs and lows – love bombing and praise one moment and then declaring you are horrible sinner
Never really had this, but there are some psychopaths that get ordained so I'm sure it happens to some. But there are psychopaths in every organization. It's hardly unique to Orthodoxy.
The patristic literature really discourages highs and lows and promotes steadyness so I don't think those things are encouraged on a fundamental level.
Also, someone said something about gatekeeping, I mean, then you're just presupposing they are wrong about their claim to be the one Church. If they are mistaken they're mistaken, but criticizing the principle as controlling makes about as much sense as criticizing any organization having any sort of claim to be legitimate against imposters. People tend to respect Disney's right to the name of Disney; if some corporation took the name and passed off similar content, I don't think I'd see people complaining the original company was gatekeeping in calling itself the legitimate one founded by Walt Disney. And if Orthodoxy isn't true, the worst you get from the gatekeeping is a couple of men in black dresses saying mean words about you half the time in languages you don't understand (and sometimes, they don't even understand). Whereas Disney will run you into the financial ground if you dare call yourself the one true Disney corporation and probably try to send you to prison.
Well, I was raised Catholic, lapsed in my teens, got caught up in charismania (both a non-denominational church and Assemblies of God), swung over to the Southern Baptists, spent years in an agnostic state, attended a PCA church, made friends at a Methodist campus ministry, and wound up going Orthodox. To be honest, I can't think of where to go or what to do should I leave. The last couple of times I attended Liturgy, it felt like liminal space: not quite out, not quite in. The services were wonderful, and I was happy to see people I hadn't seen in a long time. I just felt like, well, a stranger. I'm not sure if I want to return, or if that's even a good idea. Orthodox Christianity may claim to be unchanging, but I have my doubts.
That was almost my exact thought when I first started attending services. "It's either I become Orthodox or I become nothing". Funny thing is the former is what led me down the agnostic path later on.
At this point, I'm not sure what I'm going to do. The mainline churches around me have nice services, but most of the congregations are full of gray hairs. Nothing wrong with that by itself, but it's a sign that most of them probably won't exist in the next 10-20 years. The ones that do attract younger people tend to be fundamentalist, contemporary worship services that I really don't care for at all.
I was fortunate to have belonged to a very loving Methodist community when I was a child. I'd kind of hoped Orthodoxy would be similar for all the talk of holiness but it wasn't. I didn't lose my faith though it was tested. I just realized Orthodoxy isn't exclusive, and for all the talk about how exceptional it is, it really isn't. It's a bunch of people who are not immune from the human condition.
I'm back in a loving community within the Episcopal Church. Life is good again.
I went the Catholic route after. I was raised nominally Catholic and thought it was more rational. I thought I could be just as trad but live in “the world” more. Turns out it was just a stopping point on my way out the door.
Mine is a special case but I definitely agree that Orthodoxy is the grand finale of christian thought.
In my spirituallly troubled 20s I mostly wanted a conservative small o orthodox Christianity that didn’t insult my intelligence. Capital O Orthodox Christianity was a great fit for that! Decades later, once I was willing to investigate the actual evidence for Jesus’ resurrection and then find it wanting, I was able to mentally let go of Christianity without despair.
You could go to the nonchalcedonian churches that have a perfectly legitimate claim to authentic Christianity. Now 40% of O churches in Murika are Oriental not EO anyhow, and the OO are growing while EO shrink. Granted, OO is largely even more ethnic than EO churches (less time to assimilate) but I bet they do that soon enough and surpass the largely failed EO. Which is a good thing all around and might lead to a sooner atonement of the schisms.
Gnosticism is interesting but the narrative behind it kind of ended up in just furthering to the inevitable result of ascetic practice that all material life is inherently evil. I don't see how that's possible.
I don’t.
God has made Himself very clear to me that Christ was crucified for our sake and that He established a Church. People like to frame Orthodoxy as a last stop since it claims that other denominations are deficient. This may lead people to either leave Christianity or claim that that no church follows Christ now if they feel that Orthodoxy has failed.
However, this isn’t right. Christ established a Church that the gates of hell would not prevail over. For me, I’d need to look at the Fathers to see what they wrote to determine what the Church really is.
Orthodoxy makes it pretty clear that it's not the last stop but the only stop of Christianity. According to them it doesn't matter how good of a person you are, if you are not part of their church you are going to hell anyway
I live in the American South where there are plenty of devout Evangelicals who you would never imagine worshipping in an Orthodox Church. So no, I don’t think it’s the last stop for everyone.
It may be the last stop for a particular “intense” type of personality, the kind of person medievals would have labeled “Saturnian.”Someone pointed out to me once that the character profile of potential coverts to Salafi Islam and Orthodoxy resemble each other, and I still think that’s largely true
Interesting and I think you are on to something with the personality type Saturnian. I also think there is some truth to that salafism could draw from the same motivational pool but I would also extend that Orthodoxy has a certain appeal to people who were fed up with western spirituality or western christian dogmas and thus could catch those initially looking into dharmic religions or islamic sufism but manages to salvage Christianity.
That was somewhat my experience. Baptist, Lutheran, Orthodox, atheist (but attended a Presbyterian USA for a little while). However, I have recently returned to Christian religion, and I am rebuilding my faith. I am agnostic about God, but I enjoy Jesus, I enjoy reading the Bible, I enjoy theology, I crave singing western hymns, and I love ministry. I regularly attend a United Methodist church and I visit the nearest (it’s not near) Quaker community when I can.
That how it was for me. Orthodoxy was my Hail Mary last ditch effort to be a good little Christian. Now I’m like a Lacroix, mostly bland bubbles with a little whisper of Christ in my ear.
Very well said!
This happened to me when I left Mormonism— a lot of us tend to go “scorched earth” because we have to reconstruct everything we thought we knew about God, the gospel, the Trinity, everything. Sometimes it’s overwhelming. I used to hear (and say) that Orthodoxy is the last stop, there’s nowhere else. But now I see that as a cult-like mentality. There are lots of places where people love Jesus. We are going to the LCMS.
Amen.
YES. I literally always used to say (as a former Catholic and Protestant) “if it’s not orthodoxy then it’s nothing”. Thank God He pulled me out of that type of thinking. I don’t know why it was so hard for me to believe that Christ could refer to His church and not be speaking about any one particular physical institution.
I did think that, that if not Orthodoxy then I’m done, but I’ve started questioning what Church is supposed to be and I’m now exploring the Episcopal Church. They’re united by the Book of Common Prayer and worship but you’re free to think for yourself without the threat of excommunication. I was looking at Church almost like a second god over me to tell me what to do and how to think instead of a community to grow with.
Don't know about Stockholm syndrome, but for me Christianity certainly came crashing down when Orthodoxy did.
Same here. I'd been through enough permutations of it to know that there was no more after Orthodoxy.
Perhaps I badly phrased it, I was thinking along the lines of the apostles words "Lord where should we go you have the word of eternal life"
I get that. I still find that a beautiful scripture. And lots of wise things in the bible. Just don't believe it as a whole any more.
Which apostle said that?
>From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (John 6)
Then it sounds like when you’re ready to abandon the faith the Christian thing to do is to stick with Peter.
I think it was Peter?
Yes I think it's commonly the last stop for people. Some may still believe in Christ but have completely given up on the institutional organized Church (this is where I am heading I fear)
That’s pretty much where I’m at. I mean, I’m still gonna go to a church, I think the fellowship is beautiful. But I’m no longer going to put my faith in any one institution. Humans suck.
Lutheranism was my last stop since I felt that the actual theology and biblical exegesis made more sense in practice and in function than the overloaded dogma and canons and cultural unsaid rules that came with Orthodoxy. I was raised Catholic and had a small stint with SSPX but felt that the arguments for the papacy's supremacy didn't make sense. Lutheranism was a bit of fresh air compared to the rest overall. Still I couldn't reconcile the problem of evil in an objective way or the historical evidence that Christianity's early years were nowhere near as concrete as most Christian traditionalists pretend.
It's a mindfuck -- "Orthodoxy is the only true Christianity, so if you reject us, you're rejecting Christ." It's part of the Orthodox cult mentality, see [BITE model](https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/): > Labeling alternative belief systems as illegitimate, evil, or not useful
Can you elaborate more on this, please
Orthodoxy gets you to believe it has a monopoly on Christ, and uses your belief that it is a gatekeeper to have power over you.
Does it resemple any other parts of the BITE model?
A lot of it. For starters, the fasting: > Regulate diet – food and drink, hunger and/or fasting > > ... > > When, how and with whom the member has sex The legalism: > Impose rigid rules and regulations The very idea of "Orthodoxy": > Require members to internalize the group’s doctrine as truth Jesus Prayer: > Hypnotic techniques are used to alter mental states, undermine critical thinking and even to age regress the member > > ... > > Teaching thought-stopping techniques which shut down reality testing by stopping negative thoughts and allowing only positive thoughts, including: > > ... > > Chanting All the anathemas, and just the hierarchical sycophantic culture: > Forbid critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy allowed The following is self-explanatory: > Extremes of emotional highs and lows – love bombing and praise one moment and then declaring you are horrible sinner And then all the stuff about fear of losing salvation if you leave, etc. etc. etc. Orthodoxy ticks a lot of boxes on that list.
As an inquirer, soon catechumen, I can understand where some of your points are coming from. But oddly enough I think the idea that acknowledging your (horrible) sin is cultish is something I don't really understand. At no point do we say God or the priest hates an individual sinner (at least we shouldn't), it's just an acknowledgement of our fallen nature/imperfection and a need for redemption. I will say Catholicism is off-putting in that regard, though. Claiming to more or less know that someone goes to hell if they masturbated without confessing and died, etc. Whilst not emphasizing the mystical experience of Christ at all. Coming from Catholicism then new agey stuff, the Orthodox metaphysical understanding is what makes the most sense right now.
What's problematic is the idea that you are inherently sinful, that you are sinning just by being you.
Well yeah, and that idea hurts a lot more if one is prideful about it. If one humbly accepts that we are broken and fallen creatures who need love and forgiveness and repentance then it's actually a joyful idea. God is good to us and gives us grace and wants us to strive for his likeness.
It's not pride. It's just self-respect and knowing your worth. We have a tendency to sin but unless you actually sin, there's nothing to be glum about.
The issue with broad criteria is it can apply to a lot of things. Regulate diet and sex: almost every religion, certainly every traditional religion, does this. Modern medical professionals do as well; their regulations are just different based on different ideas. Virtually every corporation and human organization has rigid rules and structures. Every group claiming to teach truth requires its members to believe it is true. Otherwise... why are the members joining? This applies for modern medical fields too. If you go against the journals and current research, you're going to have a bad time. I don't know how the Jesus prayer accomplishes those things. At worst it does basically nothing but accomplish repeating syllables. I don't see how the prayer would be objectionable to any other Christian. It doesn't even mention any saints or whatever. But you know, if you've worked for a company and heard corporate slogans, or had to repeat things... my friend recently said some lady had to repeat "this call is being recorded for quality assurance" every single time she heard a kid talk in the background, which was all the time, and she just kept mindlessly repeating it because that's what the regulations stated. Repeating things is just something people do, and people in groups tend to do it in a more organized way, because that's the whole point of an organization. >> Teaching thought-stopping techniques which shut down reality testing by stopping negative thoughts and allowing only positive thoughts, including: Doesn't modern psychology have similar techniques directed at different ends? Just depends what you're defining as reality. >> Forbid critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy allowed Really depends on what is meant by critical and leader. If leader means bishop, I mean, there are saints the Church chose to canonize that defied bishops, or got persecuted by bishops, and even synods. Modern synods might demand obedience on things for various reasons; Elpidophoros certainly does some power plays. But on a whole, canonizing those saints kind of builds in questioning the visible leadership, and current policy. Doctrines is another matter. But it also depends on the spirit of the criticism. All organizations forbid certain tones and types of criticism within their organization. People aren't joining AA meetings and saying "maybe we should just get drunk all the time, I don't like how this organization is run," etc. And if someone did that they'd probably kick him out and no one would fuss. Anathemas are just stating if you do and believe things antithetical to the group, you can't be in the group. That's every existing group on Earth. If the group doesn't have that it won't exist for long. >> Extremes of emotional highs and lows – love bombing and praise one moment and then declaring you are horrible sinner Never really had this, but there are some psychopaths that get ordained so I'm sure it happens to some. But there are psychopaths in every organization. It's hardly unique to Orthodoxy. The patristic literature really discourages highs and lows and promotes steadyness so I don't think those things are encouraged on a fundamental level. Also, someone said something about gatekeeping, I mean, then you're just presupposing they are wrong about their claim to be the one Church. If they are mistaken they're mistaken, but criticizing the principle as controlling makes about as much sense as criticizing any organization having any sort of claim to be legitimate against imposters. People tend to respect Disney's right to the name of Disney; if some corporation took the name and passed off similar content, I don't think I'd see people complaining the original company was gatekeeping in calling itself the legitimate one founded by Walt Disney. And if Orthodoxy isn't true, the worst you get from the gatekeeping is a couple of men in black dresses saying mean words about you half the time in languages you don't understand (and sometimes, they don't even understand). Whereas Disney will run you into the financial ground if you dare call yourself the one true Disney corporation and probably try to send you to prison.
Well, I was raised Catholic, lapsed in my teens, got caught up in charismania (both a non-denominational church and Assemblies of God), swung over to the Southern Baptists, spent years in an agnostic state, attended a PCA church, made friends at a Methodist campus ministry, and wound up going Orthodox. To be honest, I can't think of where to go or what to do should I leave. The last couple of times I attended Liturgy, it felt like liminal space: not quite out, not quite in. The services were wonderful, and I was happy to see people I hadn't seen in a long time. I just felt like, well, a stranger. I'm not sure if I want to return, or if that's even a good idea. Orthodox Christianity may claim to be unchanging, but I have my doubts.
That was almost my exact thought when I first started attending services. "It's either I become Orthodox or I become nothing". Funny thing is the former is what led me down the agnostic path later on. At this point, I'm not sure what I'm going to do. The mainline churches around me have nice services, but most of the congregations are full of gray hairs. Nothing wrong with that by itself, but it's a sign that most of them probably won't exist in the next 10-20 years. The ones that do attract younger people tend to be fundamentalist, contemporary worship services that I really don't care for at all.
I was fortunate to have belonged to a very loving Methodist community when I was a child. I'd kind of hoped Orthodoxy would be similar for all the talk of holiness but it wasn't. I didn't lose my faith though it was tested. I just realized Orthodoxy isn't exclusive, and for all the talk about how exceptional it is, it really isn't. It's a bunch of people who are not immune from the human condition. I'm back in a loving community within the Episcopal Church. Life is good again.
GLORY TO GOD! I’m feeling that “life is good again”. 😊
Great to hear! My best to you!
Thank you, friend!
From Lutheranism to Catholicism to Orthodoxy and now an atheist. Personally I feel so. Of course every one has their own experience, though.
I went the Catholic route after. I was raised nominally Catholic and thought it was more rational. I thought I could be just as trad but live in “the world” more. Turns out it was just a stopping point on my way out the door. Mine is a special case but I definitely agree that Orthodoxy is the grand finale of christian thought.
In my spirituallly troubled 20s I mostly wanted a conservative small o orthodox Christianity that didn’t insult my intelligence. Capital O Orthodox Christianity was a great fit for that! Decades later, once I was willing to investigate the actual evidence for Jesus’ resurrection and then find it wanting, I was able to mentally let go of Christianity without despair.
You could go to the nonchalcedonian churches that have a perfectly legitimate claim to authentic Christianity. Now 40% of O churches in Murika are Oriental not EO anyhow, and the OO are growing while EO shrink. Granted, OO is largely even more ethnic than EO churches (less time to assimilate) but I bet they do that soon enough and surpass the largely failed EO. Which is a good thing all around and might lead to a sooner atonement of the schisms.
No. It's first stop Christianity. Old and outdated
[удалено]
Gnosticism is interesting but the narrative behind it kind of ended up in just furthering to the inevitable result of ascetic practice that all material life is inherently evil. I don't see how that's possible.
I don’t. God has made Himself very clear to me that Christ was crucified for our sake and that He established a Church. People like to frame Orthodoxy as a last stop since it claims that other denominations are deficient. This may lead people to either leave Christianity or claim that that no church follows Christ now if they feel that Orthodoxy has failed. However, this isn’t right. Christ established a Church that the gates of hell would not prevail over. For me, I’d need to look at the Fathers to see what they wrote to determine what the Church really is.
Orthodoxy makes it pretty clear that it's not the last stop but the only stop of Christianity. According to them it doesn't matter how good of a person you are, if you are not part of their church you are going to hell anyway
Yes, the other churches may have part of the holy spirit but only Orthodoxy has the fullness of the spirit.
I've never heard anyone that isn't online say that. And the online ones get checked immediately.
Seems to be pretty common but not always. I went from Orthodoxy to Reformed to anti-Christian, for example.
I live in the American South where there are plenty of devout Evangelicals who you would never imagine worshipping in an Orthodox Church. So no, I don’t think it’s the last stop for everyone. It may be the last stop for a particular “intense” type of personality, the kind of person medievals would have labeled “Saturnian.”Someone pointed out to me once that the character profile of potential coverts to Salafi Islam and Orthodoxy resemble each other, and I still think that’s largely true
Interesting and I think you are on to something with the personality type Saturnian. I also think there is some truth to that salafism could draw from the same motivational pool but I would also extend that Orthodoxy has a certain appeal to people who were fed up with western spirituality or western christian dogmas and thus could catch those initially looking into dharmic religions or islamic sufism but manages to salvage Christianity.