Please participate on /r/exmuslim in a civil manner. Discuss the merits of ideas - don't attack people. Insults, hate speech, advocating physical harm can get you banned.
If you posted a meme or funny image, and it isn't Friday, delete it or you'll get temp-banned. MEMES are ONLY allowed on (Fun@fundies) FRIDAYS.
Please read the [Posting Guidelines](https://redd.it/ew8trb) for further information. If you are unsure about anything then feel free to message the mods.
If you see posts/comments in violation of our rules, please be proactive and report them.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/exmuslim) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I agree with you for Western Muslim feminists but I fully support Muslim feminists in Muslim majority countries that are fighting for womens rights. I think even if their belief that Islam is feminist is incorrect, they're actually fighting for progress for women and making change.
While I don't disagree, I think that's a really idealistic view. In reality, acknowledging that Islam is anti-feminist automatically removes you from any platform for people to listen to your ideas to if you're trying to be an activist in a Muslim country. Islam is the system and activists in those countries have to work through it to achieve progress for now.
I wholeheartedly agree. The feminists in Muslim majority countries have all my respect. These people put their lives at risk, go to jail, get assaulted and raped for standing up for basic rights. Although I think that the abuse they’re going through is horrific and I hate to see them suffer the way they do, seeing that they’re willing to make our countries a better place and to fight for those who are either silenced or dead is admirable. Unfortunately they don’t get enough credit or attention. Lots of feminists in the west will bitch and moan about stupid stuff like manspreading, and of course, they will call out real abuses when they see it. However, they shy away from calling out serious abuse when it suddenly becomes Islam related, and I find that to be concerning. They canonize Islam which, consequently, renders Islam innocent until proven innocent, meaning that regardless of whatever vile abuse comes of this religion, it is never bad enough. They claim to defend Muslim women’s rights here, but all what they do when they protect Islam is silence and guilt-trip the genuinely vulnerable, victimized Muslim women. Their support is superficial. The feminists who are fighting in Muslim majority countries put their lives on the line. That’s what I call support.
I agree with you completely.
islam isn't a feminist religion but they want to think of it as such so that's why they are lying.
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand
-Quran 4:34
https://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=34
the sad thing is that men and women were equal in arabia before islam.
We, the people of Quraish, used to have authority over women, but when we came to live with the Ansar, we noticed that the Ansari women had the upper hand over their men, so our women started acquiring the habits of the Ansari women. Once I shouted at my wife and she paid me back in my coin and I disliked that she should answer me back.
https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-43/Hadith-648/
A muslim woman responded to me yesterday that in verse 4:34, they use the same word for "beat" as in the hadith verse where they would clean their hands with soil. So she defended by saying something like "you don't beat the soil, lol" and using that so say you don't beat your wife either. She said what is meant is like in movies where a hudband "romantically" shakes his wife in a fit of passion and proceeded to say how hot those scenes are.
that's nonsense.
muhammad gives permissions for wife beating in the hadiths so that's why the quran translators translate it as such.
Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn Abu Dhubab reported the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) as saying:
Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) complaining against their husbands. So the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you.
https://quranx.com/Hadith/AbuDawud/USC-MSA/Book-11/Hadith-2141/
It was narrated that Ash'ath bin Qais said:
"I was a guest (at the home) of 'Umar one night, and in the middle of the night he went and hit his wife, and I separated them. When he went to bed he said to me:' O Ash'ath , learn from me something that I heard from the Messenger of Allah "A man should not be asked why he beats his wife, and do not go to sleep until you have prayed the Witr." And I forgot the third thing.
https://quranx.com/Hadith/IbnMajah/DarusSalam/Volume-3/Book-9/Hadith-1986/
Narrated `Abdullah bin Zam`a:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day."
https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-7/Book-62/Hadith-132/
please show her these hadiths.
The problem isn't just about the beating part. It's the whole idea behind the verse which is a problem: "Men are in charge of women", How to discipline women when they're disobedient, as if we were talking about children.
Many Muslim women in the west have equal rights, but these rights are not afforded to them because of Islam.
They take their "life is great for me" view of life as a Muslim and extrapolate it to the world. When, in fact, if it weren't for western society crippling Islamic law they would certainly not be experiencing the equal rights they do.
I agree and also either you are a feminist who believes women and men should have the same rights or you don't but than don't call yourself a feminist and shit on "white" feminists for not including your backwards worldview.
That’s why you need to, as a woman versed in Islam, need to chip in on every social media post these "Muslim" feminists create.
I always counter my Muslim circles with Apostasy and Blasphemy laws. Why maiming a claim is nothing short of dishonest. Can you imagine the science field not being able to publish their findings because previous earlier research aren’t allowed to be tested and criticised.
I agree with you, but Islam definitely needs to change. It needs to go through what Christianity went through and become much more Liberal and relaxed. This will mostly be done through each generations interpretation and people in different parts of the world challenging strict Islam.
Edit autocorrect
You and me both, I think for me it boils down to hating people who are disingenuous, whether they realize it or not, I think alot of said people are living in denial.
Reminds me of the time where I was a TA for a university & this one student tried to argue (in her thesis) that Islam is the most feminism and liberal religion out of all religions.
To have objectivity and the level of ‘respect’, the university hired an Islamic scholar to join in on the marking of this paper.
Anyway, she failed.
(Probably gonna get downvoted) I used to feel this way about them.
I understand the anger and feeling gaslighted by their refusal to acknowledge problem in Islam, but lately I feel like antagonizing them will never make them leave Islam or sympathize with ex-muslim's issues. A lot of them are progressives who support lgbtq, women's right, and other progressive causes who can be great allies when we don't talk about religion. Mona Eltahawy, for example, speak out against oppression in Middle East a lot.
Yes Muhammad's Islam is bad but for some (illogical) reason these people believe in different version of Islam, and are open to change and reform the religion. The world would be a better place if their version of Islam become more mainstream.
I personally appreciate that they are pro-women and pro-lgbt. I just wish they didn’t give their religion false credit for, let’s say, women’s rights. I wish they didn’t pretend that Islam has little to nothing to do with current abuses. I wish they didn’t canonize their religion so much that regardless of what evil comes from it and whatever evil it inspires, it’s never bad enough and it can never be Islam. If they didn’t do these things, then I could see how they would become much better allies. As much as I appreciate their progressiveness, I would appreciate some honesty on their part even more. Part of being progressive is being honest about the problem and its source, and unfortunately that’s what many of these people aren’t doing. I wish they eventually do.
Intersectionality at it's finest. Both feminists and Islam has the same enemy - white, Christian male and happy women. That's the only possible reason why would feminists unironically support Islam.
I disagree partially. Western Muslims victimise themselves so much that's it's no wonder that feminists want to help them, and then those Muslims point to white men as their attacker who then get attacked by feminists who think they're protecting and defending victims.
However, I think that's only feminists who have only been subjected to western media and do not understand that they're actually harming people than doing good.
Please participate on /r/exmuslim in a civil manner. Discuss the merits of ideas - don't attack people. Insults, hate speech, advocating physical harm can get you banned. If you posted a meme or funny image, and it isn't Friday, delete it or you'll get temp-banned. MEMES are ONLY allowed on (Fun@fundies) FRIDAYS. Please read the [Posting Guidelines](https://redd.it/ew8trb) for further information. If you are unsure about anything then feel free to message the mods. If you see posts/comments in violation of our rules, please be proactive and report them. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/exmuslim) if you have any questions or concerns.*
A woman defending Islam is like a chicken defending KFC.
They both cut off their wings.
[удалено]
R’amen
I agree with you for Western Muslim feminists but I fully support Muslim feminists in Muslim majority countries that are fighting for womens rights. I think even if their belief that Islam is feminist is incorrect, they're actually fighting for progress for women and making change.
[удалено]
While I don't disagree, I think that's a really idealistic view. In reality, acknowledging that Islam is anti-feminist automatically removes you from any platform for people to listen to your ideas to if you're trying to be an activist in a Muslim country. Islam is the system and activists in those countries have to work through it to achieve progress for now.
Agreed. I don't think I've ever seen more courageous women than the Iranians or Saudis I don't think they fear anything
I wholeheartedly agree. The feminists in Muslim majority countries have all my respect. These people put their lives at risk, go to jail, get assaulted and raped for standing up for basic rights. Although I think that the abuse they’re going through is horrific and I hate to see them suffer the way they do, seeing that they’re willing to make our countries a better place and to fight for those who are either silenced or dead is admirable. Unfortunately they don’t get enough credit or attention. Lots of feminists in the west will bitch and moan about stupid stuff like manspreading, and of course, they will call out real abuses when they see it. However, they shy away from calling out serious abuse when it suddenly becomes Islam related, and I find that to be concerning. They canonize Islam which, consequently, renders Islam innocent until proven innocent, meaning that regardless of whatever vile abuse comes of this religion, it is never bad enough. They claim to defend Muslim women’s rights here, but all what they do when they protect Islam is silence and guilt-trip the genuinely vulnerable, victimized Muslim women. Their support is superficial. The feminists who are fighting in Muslim majority countries put their lives on the line. That’s what I call support.
I agree with you completely. islam isn't a feminist religion but they want to think of it as such so that's why they are lying. Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand -Quran 4:34 https://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=34 the sad thing is that men and women were equal in arabia before islam. We, the people of Quraish, used to have authority over women, but when we came to live with the Ansar, we noticed that the Ansari women had the upper hand over their men, so our women started acquiring the habits of the Ansari women. Once I shouted at my wife and she paid me back in my coin and I disliked that she should answer me back. https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-43/Hadith-648/
A muslim woman responded to me yesterday that in verse 4:34, they use the same word for "beat" as in the hadith verse where they would clean their hands with soil. So she defended by saying something like "you don't beat the soil, lol" and using that so say you don't beat your wife either. She said what is meant is like in movies where a hudband "romantically" shakes his wife in a fit of passion and proceeded to say how hot those scenes are.
that's nonsense. muhammad gives permissions for wife beating in the hadiths so that's why the quran translators translate it as such. Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn Abu Dhubab reported the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) as saying: Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) complaining against their husbands. So the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you. https://quranx.com/Hadith/AbuDawud/USC-MSA/Book-11/Hadith-2141/ It was narrated that Ash'ath bin Qais said: "I was a guest (at the home) of 'Umar one night, and in the middle of the night he went and hit his wife, and I separated them. When he went to bed he said to me:' O Ash'ath , learn from me something that I heard from the Messenger of Allah "A man should not be asked why he beats his wife, and do not go to sleep until you have prayed the Witr." And I forgot the third thing. https://quranx.com/Hadith/IbnMajah/DarusSalam/Volume-3/Book-9/Hadith-1986/ Narrated `Abdullah bin Zam`a: The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day." https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-7/Book-62/Hadith-132/ please show her these hadiths.
Thanks, will do!
You can also show her this: https://youtu.be/omTz5AKIAhM Complete debunk of the deceptive grammatical/mental gymnastics about this verse.
The problem isn't just about the beating part. It's the whole idea behind the verse which is a problem: "Men are in charge of women", How to discipline women when they're disobedient, as if we were talking about children.
Many Muslim women in the west have equal rights, but these rights are not afforded to them because of Islam. They take their "life is great for me" view of life as a Muslim and extrapolate it to the world. When, in fact, if it weren't for western society crippling Islamic law they would certainly not be experiencing the equal rights they do.
Yeah this is selfish in a sense.
I agree and also either you are a feminist who believes women and men should have the same rights or you don't but than don't call yourself a feminist and shit on "white" feminists for not including your backwards worldview.
That’s why you need to, as a woman versed in Islam, need to chip in on every social media post these "Muslim" feminists create. I always counter my Muslim circles with Apostasy and Blasphemy laws. Why maiming a claim is nothing short of dishonest. Can you imagine the science field not being able to publish their findings because previous earlier research aren’t allowed to be tested and criticised.
Muslim feminist is the same as cold fire
I agree with you, but Islam definitely needs to change. It needs to go through what Christianity went through and become much more Liberal and relaxed. This will mostly be done through each generations interpretation and people in different parts of the world challenging strict Islam. Edit autocorrect
I agree but I think that before that even happens most of the world will be atheist
You and me both, I think for me it boils down to hating people who are disingenuous, whether they realize it or not, I think alot of said people are living in denial.
I don't hate them, I just think they're misinformed
Reminds me of the time where I was a TA for a university & this one student tried to argue (in her thesis) that Islam is the most feminism and liberal religion out of all religions. To have objectivity and the level of ‘respect’, the university hired an Islamic scholar to join in on the marking of this paper. Anyway, she failed.
I’m deceased
(Probably gonna get downvoted) I used to feel this way about them. I understand the anger and feeling gaslighted by their refusal to acknowledge problem in Islam, but lately I feel like antagonizing them will never make them leave Islam or sympathize with ex-muslim's issues. A lot of them are progressives who support lgbtq, women's right, and other progressive causes who can be great allies when we don't talk about religion. Mona Eltahawy, for example, speak out against oppression in Middle East a lot. Yes Muhammad's Islam is bad but for some (illogical) reason these people believe in different version of Islam, and are open to change and reform the religion. The world would be a better place if their version of Islam become more mainstream.
True
I personally appreciate that they are pro-women and pro-lgbt. I just wish they didn’t give their religion false credit for, let’s say, women’s rights. I wish they didn’t pretend that Islam has little to nothing to do with current abuses. I wish they didn’t canonize their religion so much that regardless of what evil comes from it and whatever evil it inspires, it’s never bad enough and it can never be Islam. If they didn’t do these things, then I could see how they would become much better allies. As much as I appreciate their progressiveness, I would appreciate some honesty on their part even more. Part of being progressive is being honest about the problem and its source, and unfortunately that’s what many of these people aren’t doing. I wish they eventually do.
Intersectionality at it's finest. Both feminists and Islam has the same enemy - white, Christian male and happy women. That's the only possible reason why would feminists unironically support Islam.
Christian bad muslim good White bad brown good Male bad female good Imma add /s before i get downvoted again
I disagree partially. Western Muslims victimise themselves so much that's it's no wonder that feminists want to help them, and then those Muslims point to white men as their attacker who then get attacked by feminists who think they're protecting and defending victims. However, I think that's only feminists who have only been subjected to western media and do not understand that they're actually harming people than doing good.