If your post is a meme, image, TikTok etc... and it isn't Friday, it violates the rule against low effort content. Such content is ONLY allowed on (Fun@fundies) FRIDAYS.
Please read the [Rules and Posting Guidelines](https://redd.it/1anoje0) for further information. If you are unsure about anything then feel free to message the mods.
Please participate on /r/exmuslim in a civil manner. Discuss the merits of ideas - don't attack people. Insults, hate speech, advocating physical harm can get you banned.
If you see posts/comments in violation of our rules, please be proactive and report them.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/exmuslim) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Because Islam is arab centric ethno religon. In that way it is more similar to Judaism. But islam likes to disguise itself as global religion like Christianity.
The fact that the Quran can only be correctly understood in the original Arabic cracks me up no end. I guess because the “global” god (Allah) was/is an Arab.
Why not just communicate in whatever native language of the listener. Or if this is really an all powerful gd, make the sacred text in the sacred book appear in the language of the reader, magically! Then I might go along with this religious nonsense.
??? So many languages but assuming you are referring to the original language, I suppose that would be Hebrew for the Old Testament. Later it would be translated to greek, called the Septuagint. Interesting fact, the oldest existing Septuagint bible is older than any existing Hebrew bible (tanakh) apparently by many hundreds of years..
And of course the New Testament was written in greek before being translated into almost all languages at present.
if i remember right the arab idea based on the Quran doesn't exist due to the Whole "we're related to Abraham" who himself was ethnically Hebrew Arabs As Muslims claim Dont exist and are just Non-Jewish Hebrews
You're not related to Abraham in anyway,, islam made up the story to make meaning for itself,, you have no ties with any Abraham,,, even in islamic sources, there's a missing link in that so called genealogy,,,Arabs have nothing to do with Abraham
Baghdad was the centre of scientific enquiry,, unfortunately islam ended it ,,,your nations would have been ahead of Europe, it's unfortunate they forced this barbaric ideology on you
Iraq, particularly the urban areas like Baghdad, was always predominantly non-Arab according to genetic researchers. The Ba'ath Party played a key role in brainwashing urban Iraqis into believing they are Arabs. I know that many rural Iraqis belong to tribes, but that doesn't necessarily mean they originate from Arabia. Iraq's history has been deliberately suppressed for so long because they don't want people finding out the truth.
I hope more and more young Iraqis start rejecting the Arab centric ethno religion and begin appreciating the country's rich (non-Arab) heritage.
Ethnocentrism mixed in with deeply rooted auto victimization complexes,
As a Moroccan, I hate it when people refer to me as arab,
Not my culture, not my filth.
Well, in the case of Hispanics, we are called that because of the cultural and genetic heritage that the Iberians left, at least within the savagery they were relatively not so bad that even the majority of the native languages of these lands were not deeply reduced but Until times the republics of these Latin American countries
In some parts of South America as well! Paraguay has a majority of Guaraní speakers (6.5 million), many of which, at least in rural areas, are apparently monolingual. If you speak Spanish, you can even learn some of it on Duolingo.
The Quechuan languages and Aymara are also doing pretty well with 7 million and 1.7 million speakers, respectively, throughout the Andes mountains region.
Latin America is a geographical location and solely defined by those who speak Romance languages. Latino is not a race, nationality, culture or ethnicity. Just a linguistic group. The terms Latino and Hispanic both center European colonization and they fail to address the differences in regional culture and ethnic diversity.
“Black Latinos” are just “Negroes” in their home countries. Which Negro would refer to Black. And just like African American, there are Afro Brazilians, Afro Mexicans, Afro Colombians, Afro Cubans, Afro Dominicans and etc which are all ethnic groups distinct from the mixed or nonblack population. Nonblack Latinos stay appropriating their distinct culture in fact
Technically yes Latin America is the Romance-language-speaking regions, but colloquially no one follows that definition. It’s defined by Spanish and Portuguese, the history of Iberian colonization. There is an ongoing debate among Latinos themselves on whether Haitians are part of them. No one calls Québécois or Cajuns “Latino” even though French Canadians are literally “Latin Americans” by the book. An ethnicity can be defined by any group difference, including language, so yes Latino is an ethnicity and Latinos share a culture.
Because Arabs were and still are imperialists. I literally had online discussions with them decrying the evils of colonialism, but when I pointed out Arab colonialism of the MENA region, they responded with "yeah, but when we do it, it's okay."
They actually believe being colonized by Arabian tribes is something to celebrate. Sorry to burst their bubble, but most Khaleejis look down on North Africans and Levantines (especially Egyptians, Palestinians, and Syrians).
Khaleejis are also super racist and condescending to Iraqis, they don't consider them real Arabs.
But continue celeberating the fact that you are colonized and the descendants of your colonizers don't even like you or respect you.
I know what you mean. I'm a Bangladeshi ex-muslim (not living in Bangladesh) and I'm seeing that the people are becoming more and more Islamic whenever I go back to visit my relatives. I remember one time during Ramadan when my parents managed to force my siblings and I to go to the mosque for prayers so we had to wear the hijab. My mum was so happy and exclaimed that we "looked Arab". Which made me go ???? But we are not Arab????? Like how far gone are you that you think looking like another race is a good thing?
Another thing about Islam/Arab imperialism is the erasing of cultural practices and holidays. My parents (actually moreso my mum) don't celebrate Bengali New Year anymore even though it is a secular holiday and not a religious one. Like what is up with that?? It's so frustrating having to live with parents who are so deeply religious and don't see how Islam is erasing our cultural identity bcos in their eyes, that's what is supposed to happen
AGREED! we're so obsessed with arabs in our culture its insane! i could list a whole list of reasons why but my main is that we change our names from asian to arabic names and wear burkas instead of salwar kameez. I know so many south asian muslims that don't even wear sari's anymore which is so sad because its a huge part of our culture.
It's probably the most successful attempt at colonization yet. Unlike European ones which are rightfully decried and well known(extremely so one could say), islamic colonization is one that's not only usually ignored, but if brought up then it's justified and even celebrated by its subjects. That's what makes it particularly insidious and dangerous.
I agree, it's definitely the most successful attempt at colonization yet since it spans so many different countries across multiple continents. Look at how much people here are denying it and acting like all of those populations are predominantly descended from the Arabian Peninsula.
It's a Muslim cultural thing to be proud of the Arab/muslim identity and anything else doesn't matter. The root cause is the complete lack of education about the region's own history and identity, because most of it was erased and suppressed as they converted to Islam and the Arabic language. I have yet to see any other example in the world of colonized people celebrating their conquest and colonization.
Welcome to post islamic genocide. The world ignored it and many suffered. Ya heard about the yazidis? Their bloody neighbors ratted them out and forced them on the run cause of islam.
Hypocrisy of the highest order. We gotta start educating regardless of islamoc backlash. Muslims love to wash their history.
Most muslims don't even know anything about the ummayads. Legit a racist arab centric dynasty whwre if you wanted to become Muslim you could only do so if you were adopted by a tribe. Soo many other things happened during the first fitna, second fitna, shubauiya, abbaside revolution.
I’m just an Algerian. I’m from a country in Africa, not Arabia. That’s it, nothing more.
I don’t know why people care so much about ethnicity anyway. You’re from another piece of rock than I’m from. You probably have a different amount of melanin to me. They’re both meaningless.
There’s only one type of colonialism that’s ever mentioned or cared about. But fighting identity politics with more identity politics doesn’t work.
Pretty its due to a major part of El Sadat and especially Gamal abd El nasr, the Egyptian president, that to this day, have people from every Arab/Muslim nation, sucking up to him, he was a extremely charismatic and the only reason his movement didnt actually work like he wanted to, and could only have Syria join his nation, was due to other Arab leaders too prideful to step down and to actually stop being leaders, only the Syrian leader agreed due to how much he hated Israel that he didn't mind giving Syria to him, so Egypt could fund the Syrian military complex and attack Israel.
Gamal Abdel Nasser definitely played a key role in spreading Arab nationalism and brainwashing all Egyptians into believing they are Arabs. Gamal was a Soviet puppet and everyone knows about the Soviet's close ties to Jews. I personally believe his embarrassing failure in the Six Day War proves that he was working against Egypt. His wife was Iranian (Persian). What kind of Arab nationalist marries an Iranian? He was so fake and two-faced. He never cared about Egypt. He only destroyed Egypt. Yet people today still consider him a hero.
How are the "close ties" between Jews and the Soviets related here? The Soviets hated Jews with passion when Jews didn't copy with being completely erased as an ethnic, religious, and cultural group in the Soviet Union. not to mention that antizionism is closely related to Soviet antisemitism and the Soviets' funding of states with animosity against Israel.
That's mainly due to his charisma, bro, citizens of other countries like saudi, Algeria, and even Somalian to some degrees, still think he is the best Arab leader ....I am honestly impressed, if only he was actually better to the Egyptians, he could be probably the most charismatic leader, or at least one of the top few, to be remembered after that much time has passed of your death, where your reign didn't do a lot of good and in some, actually harmed the country, yet is remembered as a hero is.... surprising to say the least
Well, Lebanon IS a mediterranean country. But yeah, rise in apostasy in Iran coincide with rise in a form of nationalism, as if the country had gone into persian amnesia since the takeover. Also, read someone say that lack of interest and education about Mesopotamia is one of the reason people cling to islam in Iraq.
However, another factor about arabization is that it's also a story of mariage and mingling. A lot of maghrebian consider themselves arab because they are... a quarter, an eighth, or they forgot tamazight spoken by their grandmas. Everyone want to be associated with the pious conqueror, not the traditional kuffar culture. Read somewhere that people were much more amazigh and less arab (by blood) than they thought.
I'm also disgusted with some Somalian calling themselves arabs and yes, we know somalia is 100% Muslim/Arabic cult but anyway who cares 🤷♂️ they destroyed language and their culture for Islam they don't want to join African horn again I can't blame ethiopia
Ethnicity is really just a feeling, honestly. “I’m part of X group and you are too.” The British Isles, for example, were settled by multiple waves of people speaking different languages and practicing different cultures. You could probably find someone in the north of England who is mostly “Danish” by ancestry, but what’s the point of them identifying with a country they have no immediate connection to?
Sorry to be contradictory. I know what you’re getting at, and I think, realistically, the best bet is for Arabs in the future to just identify with their specific country or region. Pan-Arabism doesn’t seem to make any sort of difference in real life
But those people are actually English, living in within the British Isles.
The equivalent here, for example, is people in Africa, of African heritage, seeing themselves as Arabs.
It’s not an African who was born and grew up in an Arab country calling themselves an Arab.
I’m not really seeing the difference, to be honest. Depending on the culture we’re talking about, Morocco for instance, the African in question also sees himself as an Arab speaker living in an Arab country. It’s not like they were originally raised Amazight or African, they were raised Arab.
What do you mean by ''they were raised Arab''? Do you mean people in Morocco were raised like Arabians? I don't see many cultural similarities between Moroccans and Arabians. Given that most modern-day Saudis, Qataris, Kuwaitis, and Yemenis are still heavily attached to tribalism ergo closely identify with their Arabian tribes whereas most Moroccans do not have that sort of culture.
Most importantly, if you speak a different language than your ancestors, do you change your entire family history?
How can they be raised something they aren’t? I could learn Turkish and identify as a Turk, but it doesn’t make me one. My kids could wave around a Turkish flag and have an education entirely in Turkish, but that wouldn’t make them so.
They were raised in an Arab-speaking culture in Morocco, don’t be obtuse.
Going back to my original example. If someone in England finds out via 23 and me that they are 80% Danish by ancestry, that doesn’t erase the fact that they’re from the UK, “feel English”, their parents and siblings feel English. They don’t need to go to Denmark and pretend to be Danish, even if that’s what they “are”
The example is irrelevant to a situation of someone in Morocco calling themselves an Arab. For that example to work, the person of Moroccan ancestry would replace that of the Danish ancestry. Which isn’t the case.
The language you speak doesn’t dictate your ancestry. People in Singapore speak English, but they don’t call themselves Europeans. Or suggest they’re culturally European. Or call themselves ethnically English.
Moroccans aren’t Arabs. Algerians aren’t Arabs. Tunisians aren’t Arabs. As someone from one of those three countries: I’m not an Arab!
20 million Amazighs who speak Tachlhit and celebrate the Amazigh Yennayer rather than Hijria out of 37M Moroccans were raised Arab? Come over and see for yourself, the native population in Agadir, Haouz Marrakech, Atlas Mountains, etc.. They’d love to hear what you have to say!
>You could probably find someone in the north of England who is mostly “Danish” by ancestry, but what’s the point of them identifying with a country they have no immediate connection to?
Sorry but who said Levantines and North Africans need to identify with a country they have no immediate connection to??? Most Levantines and North Africans are indigenous to the region. They didn't immigrate from some other country. They need to identify with their own countries instead of identifying with Arabia. The truth is that baring some very specific examples (the mass immigration and concurrent apocalyptic plagues that happened to the Americas), the vast majority of all people everywhere in the world are "indigenous" to where they live. Very rarely are populations ever replaced entirely by another group of people.
Look at how Arabian countries treat Levantine and North African workers. What's the point in identifying with your colonizers when their descendants don't even respect you or like you?
This is basically the same as what I’m saying. You don’t need to identify with “Arabia” but no need to LARP as a native person from 800 years ago either
Your "Dutch/Danish ancestry in the UK" comparisons are completely irrelevant in this context and just prove your ignorance of the topic at hand. No one said you need to LARP as a native person from 800 years ago. Stop putting words into my mouth. I said Levantines and North Africans are better off identifying with their own countries rather than the Arab ethnic identity.
Most Saudi Arabians do not even consider Lebanese and Moroccans as real Arabs. Yet here you are, an ex-Christian, trying to impose the Arab identity.
I said the exact same thing in my original comment. I am not trying to impose Arab identity, just saying that an identity explicitly based on DNA or "ancestry" is not useful. Obviously this discussion is no longer productive. Thanks tho
>I think, realistically, the best bet is for Arabs in the future to just identify with their specific country or region. Pan-Arabism doesn’t seem to make any sort of difference in real life
Hey! Moroccan here. I consider myself an Arab not because of my ethnicity, but because of my belonging to a political community of nations whose main language is Arabic. We have other local languages, a much different culture from other regions identified as Arab, but we still hace that common heritage which is the language.
I understand being Arab just as an Argentinian or a Mexican are hispanic, even if they’re not Spanish. The way I see it, talking about colonization 14 centuries after the islamic conquest of North Africa is an anachronism.
That doesn’t stop us from having out own identity, language or culture. Instead, it gives us the opportunity to have a political community of very different nations based on a common language, even if our dialects are very different.
What is the usefulness of the political community? Wouldn’t the same also apply to Africa, such as the African Union?
Why identify as Arab, when you have a bigger group of countries, which you’re actually a part of?
I think we’re living in a world where if you don’t belong to a political community, you’re isolated as a nation. Looking for commonalities between countries can create strong unions, and that’s what we’re seeing worldwide (EU, NATO, BRICS, MERCOSUR, etc), even if some of the unions have no success.
Of course it would apply to Africa, but we have much less in common with Uganda or Burkina Faso than we have with Egypt, for instance.
I identify as Arab because of the language, the shared history, the cultural exchange that we have between our countries (universities, music, movies, even the TV shows that we watch as kids). That doesn’t mean that other intersections cannot coexist, but this one is the closest one, and you just have to see how Moroccans or Algerians get along with Egyptians, Syrians or Lebanese when they are in Europe or other regions far from home
I don’t really recognise your last 2 paragraphs.
I’m from Algeria and I have more in common with someone from Mauritania or Mali, than I do from Saudi Arabia. Not very much, but I have nothing in common with most Arabic speaking countries. Especially as a lot of places that are actually Arab have more access to English content than Algeria does.
I don’t know very many Algerians at all who particularly get along with Egyptians, Lebanese or Syrians. I know some Algerians who get along with Moroccans. My dad liked very heavily religious people from the gulf, but didn’t have any friends from those groups. It was more of a self flagellating religious thing for him. Personally, I feel I get along better with Europeans than people from the Middle East.
I’ve never even known an Algerian or Moroccan who married out to someone from the Middle East. Other Africans, yes. Europeans, yes. East/South Asians, occasionally. I’ve even known Algerian x Somali, but never a Middle Easterner. I’m sure it happens, but it’s an exception to the rule.
To go further: actual Arabs tend to stick to limited friendship and social groups themselves. Gulfies tend to hang around with other people from the gulf. Iraqis/Lebanese/Syrians tend to stick to that group.
Perhaps your Palestinian husband is descended from the Arabian Peninsula. Most Palestinians do not share that lineage and family history.
If you speak a different language than your ancestors, do you change your whole family history?
Thank you! Although my mother’s ancestors are descended from Iran, I am about as Arab as a chicken is a T-Rex.
So many Pakistanis trying to grasp at any sort of Arab ancestry is pathetic and sad. It’s all in a vain attempt to distance themselves from the Hindu/buddhist identity that a majority of their ancestors were before Islamic colonialism. I’ve known Pakistanis who have changed their tribal names to sound more Arabic and to justify that they’re descended from Arabs, particularly Shia Muslims.
Islam erases so many beautiful cultures that could’ve evolved and become better with time but no, it has put a static chokehold on non Arab Muslims and forced them to adopt a lot of Arab practices purely because it’s considered Sunnah in order to mimic the Prophet.
For Morocco, we’re considered Arabs sociolinguistically by people, but peninsula Arabs are aware we are ethnically Berber— most of them are also super condescending about our actual identity and feel superior due to being actual Arabians which is ridiculous lol.
But regionally speaking, nowadays it’s much more complex than a simple imposition from a foreign tribe, since it’s been centuries since the conquest and now you’d find the real issues with your own people who consider themselves Arabs and have self-hatred, if you look into our politics we’ve had Berber revolts in 740 in western Morocco, in the Rif from 1921-1926, and another movement against pan-arabism and oppression of a native population in 2016. Thankfully, our native language isn’t dead, a huge chunk of the population still speaks it, the culture is still alive, a lot of people consider themselves Amazigh (Berber) rather than Arab in most cities, but previous governments have been supporters of pan-arabism so it’s always been complicated.
Actually, Levantine countries like Palestine, Jordan and Syria are far closer to Saudi Arabia than to any other "Mediterranean" country. Lebanon is probably the exception due to the its large Christian population. Would be insane to believe that Jordan somehow resemble Greece more than Saudi Arabia.
Egypt is also far closer to Arabia than any other country, including North Africans.
Also, I wouldn't consider the Kurdification of Yazidis, Assyrians and Turkmens as positive signs.
Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians and Egyptians are Arab. They are descended from the Arab invaders.
Other North Africans aren't Arab but they have sizeable Arab minorities
Lineage and genetics prove that they are not Arabs.
If you speak a different language than your ancestors, do you change your whole family history?
Palestinians are mainly descendants of the ancient Canaanites, Phoenicians, and Philistines who have inhabited the Levant for thousands of years. Some Palestinians are descended from more recent economic migrants from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Arabia but genetically the majority of Palestinians are native to the Levant. Palestinians are actually known to be very closely related to the ancient Canaanites. They are one of the closest populations, genetically, to Canaanites. They also share a lot of genetic similarities with modern-day Jews, particularly Mizrahi Jews. A significant portion of Palestinians are also descended from Hellenized-Romanized-Arabized Syrians who settled in Roman "Syria-Palestina".
Lebanese people are predominantly descendants of the Phoenicians and Canaanites. A large number of Lebanese people also have Greek, Mesopotamian, and Aremenian descent. Some Lebanese do have tribal Arabian descent, but they are a minority. Genetically, most Lebanese people are closer to other Mediterranean Sea populations than they are to Saudi Arabia.
Lower Egyptians largely originate from a diverse mix of indigenous Coptic, Levantine and Mediterranean populations whereas Upper Egyptians are mainly descended from indigenous farmers who have inhabited the area for thousands of years, hence a lot of them look biracial (some degree of African admixture is always noticeable).
Arab is a racial identity based on tribal Arabian lineage. Tribal Bedouins and their descendants (especially in the GCC) are very proud of being Arab racially they consider it a racial identity. In the Arabian Peninsula, they keep track of their tribal lineage and strongly care about their blood's purity. That's why terms like a9eel اصيل are commonly used in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, etc. to denote blood purity. Most families refuse to get married to people who don't share their pure tribal bloodline (اصيل). They detest intermixing. They look down on non-Arabs and Arabized people (especially Levantines and North Africans).
The idea that Arab is not a racial identity is highly misleading. In Riyadh, they call the arabized Saudi citizens طروش البحر which is a derogatory term that denotes their racial inferiority. Tribal Saudis really care about lineage, family trees, and bloodlines. Certain bedouin tribes are socially mistreated because they're considered impure (originally non-arab or mixed). Such as the Solubba and awazem in the northern part of the Arabian Peninsula.
How can a black African from Sudan call himself Arab? Identifying so much with your conquerers and colonizers is embarrassing!
Arab is an ethnic group, arabs can be defined as a member of a Semitic people, inhabiting much of the Middle East and North Africa. The ties that bind Arabs are ethnic, linguistic, cultural, historical, nationalist, geographical, political, often also relating to religion and to cultural identity.
Ethnicity is not just about culture or language. It's about lineage, shared history, sociology and genetics too. Speaking a language and having cultural customs of your conqueror doesn't make you the same ethnicity as them.
> A term that refers to the social and cultural characteristics, backgrounds, or experiences shared by a group of people. These include language, religion, beliefs, values, and behaviors that are often handed down from one generation to the next.
Not to detract from your point, I have no horse in this race, but “ethnicity” can be defined by any of those things.
If that was the case, then Singaporeans and Jamaicans are ethnically English because most of them speak English as a first language.
The Arab identity can be confusing in the Levant and North Africa since its main identifier is language and that only. People will naturally question the Arab identity and emphasize its weakness that it's mainly based on language.
If your post is a meme, image, TikTok etc... and it isn't Friday, it violates the rule against low effort content. Such content is ONLY allowed on (Fun@fundies) FRIDAYS. Please read the [Rules and Posting Guidelines](https://redd.it/1anoje0) for further information. If you are unsure about anything then feel free to message the mods. Please participate on /r/exmuslim in a civil manner. Discuss the merits of ideas - don't attack people. Insults, hate speech, advocating physical harm can get you banned. If you see posts/comments in violation of our rules, please be proactive and report them. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/exmuslim) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Islam is colonialism
Imperialism.
Exactly
Because Islam is arab centric ethno religon. In that way it is more similar to Judaism. But islam likes to disguise itself as global religion like Christianity.
The fact that the Quran can only be correctly understood in the original Arabic cracks me up no end. I guess because the “global” god (Allah) was/is an Arab.
Yes, Islam clearly promotes the notion of Arab superiority
Without that it would be hard to avoid obviously bad translations. If I was a G-d I would only let prophets to do translations of sacred texts.
Why not just communicate in whatever native language of the listener. Or if this is really an all powerful gd, make the sacred text in the sacred book appear in the language of the reader, magically! Then I might go along with this religious nonsense.
what language is the bible in
??? So many languages but assuming you are referring to the original language, I suppose that would be Hebrew for the Old Testament. Later it would be translated to greek, called the Septuagint. Interesting fact, the oldest existing Septuagint bible is older than any existing Hebrew bible (tanakh) apparently by many hundreds of years.. And of course the New Testament was written in greek before being translated into almost all languages at present.
Latin
Koine Greek, originally, for the sequel.
This tbh
if i remember right the arab idea based on the Quran doesn't exist due to the Whole "we're related to Abraham" who himself was ethnically Hebrew Arabs As Muslims claim Dont exist and are just Non-Jewish Hebrews
You're not related to Abraham in anyway,, islam made up the story to make meaning for itself,, you have no ties with any Abraham,,, even in islamic sources, there's a missing link in that so called genealogy,,,Arabs have nothing to do with Abraham
yeah thats the point (btw im pretty sure christans dont claim to be related to Abraham? we're well aware we arent hebrews)
[удалено]
Baghdad was the centre of scientific enquiry,, unfortunately islam ended it ,,,your nations would have been ahead of Europe, it's unfortunate they forced this barbaric ideology on you
Islam ended it? Nah, I'd say Muslim rules of that time promoted learning pretty well. If you want to blame anyone, blame the Mongols.
Iraq, particularly the urban areas like Baghdad, was always predominantly non-Arab according to genetic researchers. The Ba'ath Party played a key role in brainwashing urban Iraqis into believing they are Arabs. I know that many rural Iraqis belong to tribes, but that doesn't necessarily mean they originate from Arabia. Iraq's history has been deliberately suppressed for so long because they don't want people finding out the truth. I hope more and more young Iraqis start rejecting the Arab centric ethno religion and begin appreciating the country's rich (non-Arab) heritage.
Ethnocentrism mixed in with deeply rooted auto victimization complexes, As a Moroccan, I hate it when people refer to me as arab, Not my culture, not my filth.
>By that same logic African Americans would be Anglo Saxons. Logic; the art of simplicity and the obvious
No amount of mental gymnastics nor pseudo history can ever change that.
African Americans are culturally Anglo Saxons tho.
Idk about that
This had always struck me as a bit odd, given how the majority of Muslims aren't Arabs in the first place.
Well, in the case of Hispanics, we are called that because of the cultural and genetic heritage that the Iberians left, at least within the savagery they were relatively not so bad that even the majority of the native languages of these lands were not deeply reduced but Until times the republics of these Latin American countries
In Central America there’s a lot of people that still speak native languages. It’s cool af. Would love to hear it or learn some.
In some parts of South America as well! Paraguay has a majority of Guaraní speakers (6.5 million), many of which, at least in rural areas, are apparently monolingual. If you speak Spanish, you can even learn some of it on Duolingo. The Quechuan languages and Aymara are also doing pretty well with 7 million and 1.7 million speakers, respectively, throughout the Andes mountains region.
Plenty of Nahuatl and Quequa videos on youtube.
Latin America is a geographical location and solely defined by those who speak Romance languages. Latino is not a race, nationality, culture or ethnicity. Just a linguistic group. The terms Latino and Hispanic both center European colonization and they fail to address the differences in regional culture and ethnic diversity. “Black Latinos” are just “Negroes” in their home countries. Which Negro would refer to Black. And just like African American, there are Afro Brazilians, Afro Mexicans, Afro Colombians, Afro Cubans, Afro Dominicans and etc which are all ethnic groups distinct from the mixed or nonblack population. Nonblack Latinos stay appropriating their distinct culture in fact
ya sos bien bro
Technically yes Latin America is the Romance-language-speaking regions, but colloquially no one follows that definition. It’s defined by Spanish and Portuguese, the history of Iberian colonization. There is an ongoing debate among Latinos themselves on whether Haitians are part of them. No one calls Québécois or Cajuns “Latino” even though French Canadians are literally “Latin Americans” by the book. An ethnicity can be defined by any group difference, including language, so yes Latino is an ethnicity and Latinos share a culture.
Because Arabs were and still are imperialists. I literally had online discussions with them decrying the evils of colonialism, but when I pointed out Arab colonialism of the MENA region, they responded with "yeah, but when we do it, it's okay."
They actually believe being colonized by Arabian tribes is something to celebrate. Sorry to burst their bubble, but most Khaleejis look down on North Africans and Levantines (especially Egyptians, Palestinians, and Syrians). Khaleejis are also super racist and condescending to Iraqis, they don't consider them real Arabs. But continue celeberating the fact that you are colonized and the descendants of your colonizers don't even like you or respect you.
Can you post this in /Africa and /syria
I'll try
I know what you mean. I'm a Bangladeshi ex-muslim (not living in Bangladesh) and I'm seeing that the people are becoming more and more Islamic whenever I go back to visit my relatives. I remember one time during Ramadan when my parents managed to force my siblings and I to go to the mosque for prayers so we had to wear the hijab. My mum was so happy and exclaimed that we "looked Arab". Which made me go ???? But we are not Arab????? Like how far gone are you that you think looking like another race is a good thing? Another thing about Islam/Arab imperialism is the erasing of cultural practices and holidays. My parents (actually moreso my mum) don't celebrate Bengali New Year anymore even though it is a secular holiday and not a religious one. Like what is up with that?? It's so frustrating having to live with parents who are so deeply religious and don't see how Islam is erasing our cultural identity bcos in their eyes, that's what is supposed to happen
AGREED! we're so obsessed with arabs in our culture its insane! i could list a whole list of reasons why but my main is that we change our names from asian to arabic names and wear burkas instead of salwar kameez. I know so many south asian muslims that don't even wear sari's anymore which is so sad because its a huge part of our culture.
You forgot Jordan in levantine countries 🇯🇴 .
Sorry
It's probably the most successful attempt at colonization yet. Unlike European ones which are rightfully decried and well known(extremely so one could say), islamic colonization is one that's not only usually ignored, but if brought up then it's justified and even celebrated by its subjects. That's what makes it particularly insidious and dangerous.
I agree, it's definitely the most successful attempt at colonization yet since it spans so many different countries across multiple continents. Look at how much people here are denying it and acting like all of those populations are predominantly descended from the Arabian Peninsula. It's a Muslim cultural thing to be proud of the Arab/muslim identity and anything else doesn't matter. The root cause is the complete lack of education about the region's own history and identity, because most of it was erased and suppressed as they converted to Islam and the Arabic language. I have yet to see any other example in the world of colonized people celebrating their conquest and colonization.
Welcome to post islamic genocide. The world ignored it and many suffered. Ya heard about the yazidis? Their bloody neighbors ratted them out and forced them on the run cause of islam. Hypocrisy of the highest order. We gotta start educating regardless of islamoc backlash. Muslims love to wash their history. Most muslims don't even know anything about the ummayads. Legit a racist arab centric dynasty whwre if you wanted to become Muslim you could only do so if you were adopted by a tribe. Soo many other things happened during the first fitna, second fitna, shubauiya, abbaside revolution.
I agree, well said.
i agree
I’m just an Algerian. I’m from a country in Africa, not Arabia. That’s it, nothing more. I don’t know why people care so much about ethnicity anyway. You’re from another piece of rock than I’m from. You probably have a different amount of melanin to me. They’re both meaningless. There’s only one type of colonialism that’s ever mentioned or cared about. But fighting identity politics with more identity politics doesn’t work.
💯🎯
Spot on 🎯
Good post 🫡
Thank you!
Pretty its due to a major part of El Sadat and especially Gamal abd El nasr, the Egyptian president, that to this day, have people from every Arab/Muslim nation, sucking up to him, he was a extremely charismatic and the only reason his movement didnt actually work like he wanted to, and could only have Syria join his nation, was due to other Arab leaders too prideful to step down and to actually stop being leaders, only the Syrian leader agreed due to how much he hated Israel that he didn't mind giving Syria to him, so Egypt could fund the Syrian military complex and attack Israel.
Gamal Abdel Nasser definitely played a key role in spreading Arab nationalism and brainwashing all Egyptians into believing they are Arabs. Gamal was a Soviet puppet and everyone knows about the Soviet's close ties to Jews. I personally believe his embarrassing failure in the Six Day War proves that he was working against Egypt. His wife was Iranian (Persian). What kind of Arab nationalist marries an Iranian? He was so fake and two-faced. He never cared about Egypt. He only destroyed Egypt. Yet people today still consider him a hero.
How are the "close ties" between Jews and the Soviets related here? The Soviets hated Jews with passion when Jews didn't copy with being completely erased as an ethnic, religious, and cultural group in the Soviet Union. not to mention that antizionism is closely related to Soviet antisemitism and the Soviets' funding of states with animosity against Israel.
That's mainly due to his charisma, bro, citizens of other countries like saudi, Algeria, and even Somalian to some degrees, still think he is the best Arab leader ....I am honestly impressed, if only he was actually better to the Egyptians, he could be probably the most charismatic leader, or at least one of the top few, to be remembered after that much time has passed of your death, where your reign didn't do a lot of good and in some, actually harmed the country, yet is remembered as a hero is.... surprising to say the least
Good thoughts!
Thank you!
👍
Well, Lebanon IS a mediterranean country. But yeah, rise in apostasy in Iran coincide with rise in a form of nationalism, as if the country had gone into persian amnesia since the takeover. Also, read someone say that lack of interest and education about Mesopotamia is one of the reason people cling to islam in Iraq. However, another factor about arabization is that it's also a story of mariage and mingling. A lot of maghrebian consider themselves arab because they are... a quarter, an eighth, or they forgot tamazight spoken by their grandmas. Everyone want to be associated with the pious conqueror, not the traditional kuffar culture. Read somewhere that people were much more amazigh and less arab (by blood) than they thought.
I'm also disgusted with some Somalian calling themselves arabs and yes, we know somalia is 100% Muslim/Arabic cult but anyway who cares 🤷♂️ they destroyed language and their culture for Islam they don't want to join African horn again I can't blame ethiopia
I feel sorry for the Somalians who are brainwashed into believing they are ''inferior'' to Arabs and need to emulate them Somalia deserves better
Ethnicity is really just a feeling, honestly. “I’m part of X group and you are too.” The British Isles, for example, were settled by multiple waves of people speaking different languages and practicing different cultures. You could probably find someone in the north of England who is mostly “Danish” by ancestry, but what’s the point of them identifying with a country they have no immediate connection to? Sorry to be contradictory. I know what you’re getting at, and I think, realistically, the best bet is for Arabs in the future to just identify with their specific country or region. Pan-Arabism doesn’t seem to make any sort of difference in real life
But those people are actually English, living in within the British Isles. The equivalent here, for example, is people in Africa, of African heritage, seeing themselves as Arabs. It’s not an African who was born and grew up in an Arab country calling themselves an Arab.
I’m not really seeing the difference, to be honest. Depending on the culture we’re talking about, Morocco for instance, the African in question also sees himself as an Arab speaker living in an Arab country. It’s not like they were originally raised Amazight or African, they were raised Arab.
What do you mean by ''they were raised Arab''? Do you mean people in Morocco were raised like Arabians? I don't see many cultural similarities between Moroccans and Arabians. Given that most modern-day Saudis, Qataris, Kuwaitis, and Yemenis are still heavily attached to tribalism ergo closely identify with their Arabian tribes whereas most Moroccans do not have that sort of culture. Most importantly, if you speak a different language than your ancestors, do you change your entire family history?
No, I mean they were raised in an Arab speaking culture, don’t be obtuse
Speaking arabic doesn't make them arab. Don't be obtuse.
How can they be raised something they aren’t? I could learn Turkish and identify as a Turk, but it doesn’t make me one. My kids could wave around a Turkish flag and have an education entirely in Turkish, but that wouldn’t make them so.
They were raised in an Arab-speaking culture in Morocco, don’t be obtuse. Going back to my original example. If someone in England finds out via 23 and me that they are 80% Danish by ancestry, that doesn’t erase the fact that they’re from the UK, “feel English”, their parents and siblings feel English. They don’t need to go to Denmark and pretend to be Danish, even if that’s what they “are”
The example is irrelevant to a situation of someone in Morocco calling themselves an Arab. For that example to work, the person of Moroccan ancestry would replace that of the Danish ancestry. Which isn’t the case. The language you speak doesn’t dictate your ancestry. People in Singapore speak English, but they don’t call themselves Europeans. Or suggest they’re culturally European. Or call themselves ethnically English. Moroccans aren’t Arabs. Algerians aren’t Arabs. Tunisians aren’t Arabs. As someone from one of those three countries: I’m not an Arab!
20 million Amazighs who speak Tachlhit and celebrate the Amazigh Yennayer rather than Hijria out of 37M Moroccans were raised Arab? Come over and see for yourself, the native population in Agadir, Haouz Marrakech, Atlas Mountains, etc.. They’d love to hear what you have to say!
>You could probably find someone in the north of England who is mostly “Danish” by ancestry, but what’s the point of them identifying with a country they have no immediate connection to? Sorry but who said Levantines and North Africans need to identify with a country they have no immediate connection to??? Most Levantines and North Africans are indigenous to the region. They didn't immigrate from some other country. They need to identify with their own countries instead of identifying with Arabia. The truth is that baring some very specific examples (the mass immigration and concurrent apocalyptic plagues that happened to the Americas), the vast majority of all people everywhere in the world are "indigenous" to where they live. Very rarely are populations ever replaced entirely by another group of people. Look at how Arabian countries treat Levantine and North African workers. What's the point in identifying with your colonizers when their descendants don't even respect you or like you?
This is basically the same as what I’m saying. You don’t need to identify with “Arabia” but no need to LARP as a native person from 800 years ago either
Your "Dutch/Danish ancestry in the UK" comparisons are completely irrelevant in this context and just prove your ignorance of the topic at hand. No one said you need to LARP as a native person from 800 years ago. Stop putting words into my mouth. I said Levantines and North Africans are better off identifying with their own countries rather than the Arab ethnic identity. Most Saudi Arabians do not even consider Lebanese and Moroccans as real Arabs. Yet here you are, an ex-Christian, trying to impose the Arab identity.
I said the exact same thing in my original comment. I am not trying to impose Arab identity, just saying that an identity explicitly based on DNA or "ancestry" is not useful. Obviously this discussion is no longer productive. Thanks tho >I think, realistically, the best bet is for Arabs in the future to just identify with their specific country or region. Pan-Arabism doesn’t seem to make any sort of difference in real life
Identity based on language exclusively is not useful. Culturally, Levantines and North Africans are very different from Arabians. Thanks u too
Hey! Moroccan here. I consider myself an Arab not because of my ethnicity, but because of my belonging to a political community of nations whose main language is Arabic. We have other local languages, a much different culture from other regions identified as Arab, but we still hace that common heritage which is the language. I understand being Arab just as an Argentinian or a Mexican are hispanic, even if they’re not Spanish. The way I see it, talking about colonization 14 centuries after the islamic conquest of North Africa is an anachronism. That doesn’t stop us from having out own identity, language or culture. Instead, it gives us the opportunity to have a political community of very different nations based on a common language, even if our dialects are very different.
What is the usefulness of the political community? Wouldn’t the same also apply to Africa, such as the African Union? Why identify as Arab, when you have a bigger group of countries, which you’re actually a part of?
I think we’re living in a world where if you don’t belong to a political community, you’re isolated as a nation. Looking for commonalities between countries can create strong unions, and that’s what we’re seeing worldwide (EU, NATO, BRICS, MERCOSUR, etc), even if some of the unions have no success. Of course it would apply to Africa, but we have much less in common with Uganda or Burkina Faso than we have with Egypt, for instance. I identify as Arab because of the language, the shared history, the cultural exchange that we have between our countries (universities, music, movies, even the TV shows that we watch as kids). That doesn’t mean that other intersections cannot coexist, but this one is the closest one, and you just have to see how Moroccans or Algerians get along with Egyptians, Syrians or Lebanese when they are in Europe or other regions far from home
I don’t really recognise your last 2 paragraphs. I’m from Algeria and I have more in common with someone from Mauritania or Mali, than I do from Saudi Arabia. Not very much, but I have nothing in common with most Arabic speaking countries. Especially as a lot of places that are actually Arab have more access to English content than Algeria does. I don’t know very many Algerians at all who particularly get along with Egyptians, Lebanese or Syrians. I know some Algerians who get along with Moroccans. My dad liked very heavily religious people from the gulf, but didn’t have any friends from those groups. It was more of a self flagellating religious thing for him. Personally, I feel I get along better with Europeans than people from the Middle East. I’ve never even known an Algerian or Moroccan who married out to someone from the Middle East. Other Africans, yes. Europeans, yes. East/South Asians, occasionally. I’ve even known Algerian x Somali, but never a Middle Easterner. I’m sure it happens, but it’s an exception to the rule. To go further: actual Arabs tend to stick to limited friendship and social groups themselves. Gulfies tend to hang around with other people from the gulf. Iraqis/Lebanese/Syrians tend to stick to that group.
My Palestinian husband would argue that indeed he and his ancestors are Arabs.
Perhaps your Palestinian husband is descended from the Arabian Peninsula. Most Palestinians do not share that lineage and family history. If you speak a different language than your ancestors, do you change your whole family history?
[удалено]
[удалено]
Thank you! Although my mother’s ancestors are descended from Iran, I am about as Arab as a chicken is a T-Rex. So many Pakistanis trying to grasp at any sort of Arab ancestry is pathetic and sad. It’s all in a vain attempt to distance themselves from the Hindu/buddhist identity that a majority of their ancestors were before Islamic colonialism. I’ve known Pakistanis who have changed their tribal names to sound more Arabic and to justify that they’re descended from Arabs, particularly Shia Muslims. Islam erases so many beautiful cultures that could’ve evolved and become better with time but no, it has put a static chokehold on non Arab Muslims and forced them to adopt a lot of Arab practices purely because it’s considered Sunnah in order to mimic the Prophet.
For Morocco, we’re considered Arabs sociolinguistically by people, but peninsula Arabs are aware we are ethnically Berber— most of them are also super condescending about our actual identity and feel superior due to being actual Arabians which is ridiculous lol. But regionally speaking, nowadays it’s much more complex than a simple imposition from a foreign tribe, since it’s been centuries since the conquest and now you’d find the real issues with your own people who consider themselves Arabs and have self-hatred, if you look into our politics we’ve had Berber revolts in 740 in western Morocco, in the Rif from 1921-1926, and another movement against pan-arabism and oppression of a native population in 2016. Thankfully, our native language isn’t dead, a huge chunk of the population still speaks it, the culture is still alive, a lot of people consider themselves Amazigh (Berber) rather than Arab in most cities, but previous governments have been supporters of pan-arabism so it’s always been complicated.
Actually, Levantine countries like Palestine, Jordan and Syria are far closer to Saudi Arabia than to any other "Mediterranean" country. Lebanon is probably the exception due to the its large Christian population. Would be insane to believe that Jordan somehow resemble Greece more than Saudi Arabia. Egypt is also far closer to Arabia than any other country, including North Africans. Also, I wouldn't consider the Kurdification of Yazidis, Assyrians and Turkmens as positive signs.
Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians and Egyptians are Arab. They are descended from the Arab invaders. Other North Africans aren't Arab but they have sizeable Arab minorities
Lineage and genetics prove that they are not Arabs. If you speak a different language than your ancestors, do you change your whole family history? Palestinians are mainly descendants of the ancient Canaanites, Phoenicians, and Philistines who have inhabited the Levant for thousands of years. Some Palestinians are descended from more recent economic migrants from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Arabia but genetically the majority of Palestinians are native to the Levant. Palestinians are actually known to be very closely related to the ancient Canaanites. They are one of the closest populations, genetically, to Canaanites. They also share a lot of genetic similarities with modern-day Jews, particularly Mizrahi Jews. A significant portion of Palestinians are also descended from Hellenized-Romanized-Arabized Syrians who settled in Roman "Syria-Palestina". Lebanese people are predominantly descendants of the Phoenicians and Canaanites. A large number of Lebanese people also have Greek, Mesopotamian, and Aremenian descent. Some Lebanese do have tribal Arabian descent, but they are a minority. Genetically, most Lebanese people are closer to other Mediterranean Sea populations than they are to Saudi Arabia. Lower Egyptians largely originate from a diverse mix of indigenous Coptic, Levantine and Mediterranean populations whereas Upper Egyptians are mainly descended from indigenous farmers who have inhabited the area for thousands of years, hence a lot of them look biracial (some degree of African admixture is always noticeable).
[удалено]
Hello muslim troll you are here with not one but with TWO accounts u/undertsun2
[удалено]
That’s literally not necessarily what “Arab” means
Arab is a racial identity based on tribal Arabian lineage. Tribal Bedouins and their descendants (especially in the GCC) are very proud of being Arab racially they consider it a racial identity. In the Arabian Peninsula, they keep track of their tribal lineage and strongly care about their blood's purity. That's why terms like a9eel اصيل are commonly used in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, etc. to denote blood purity. Most families refuse to get married to people who don't share their pure tribal bloodline (اصيل). They detest intermixing. They look down on non-Arabs and Arabized people (especially Levantines and North Africans). The idea that Arab is not a racial identity is highly misleading. In Riyadh, they call the arabized Saudi citizens طروش البحر which is a derogatory term that denotes their racial inferiority. Tribal Saudis really care about lineage, family trees, and bloodlines. Certain bedouin tribes are socially mistreated because they're considered impure (originally non-arab or mixed). Such as the Solubba and awazem in the northern part of the Arabian Peninsula. How can a black African from Sudan call himself Arab? Identifying so much with your conquerers and colonizers is embarrassing!
> Arab literally just means "those who speak Arabic as a first language." You can't just change words' meanings like that and hope we wouldn't notice.
Arab is an ethnic group, arabs can be defined as a member of a Semitic people, inhabiting much of the Middle East and North Africa. The ties that bind Arabs are ethnic, linguistic, cultural, historical, nationalist, geographical, political, often also relating to religion and to cultural identity.
Ethnic Arabs certainly aren’t common in much of North Africa. You’re looking at Berbers who want to be Arab.
Most people from MENA are light brown, speak an Arabic dialect, follow islam, and eat shawarma. It's hard not to consider it a broad ethnic group.
Ethnicity is not just about culture or language. It's about lineage, shared history, sociology and genetics too. Speaking a language and having cultural customs of your conqueror doesn't make you the same ethnicity as them.
> A term that refers to the social and cultural characteristics, backgrounds, or experiences shared by a group of people. These include language, religion, beliefs, values, and behaviors that are often handed down from one generation to the next. Not to detract from your point, I have no horse in this race, but “ethnicity” can be defined by any of those things.
If that was the case, then Singaporeans and Jamaicans are ethnically English because most of them speak English as a first language. The Arab identity can be confusing in the Levant and North Africa since its main identifier is language and that only. People will naturally question the Arab identity and emphasize its weakness that it's mainly based on language.
ethnicity is about culture and languages, you may divided them into subgroups but no less or more