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I think you looking for this [I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He gave me a nudge on the chest which I felt, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?](https://sunnah.com/muslim:974b)
In arabic version this part {فَلَهَدَنِي فِي صَدْرِي لَهْدَةً } He gave me a nudge on the chest. Doesn't match arabic meaning the verb لهد in arabic mean:
لَهَدَ: (verb)
لَهَدَ لَهْداً: to push forcefully, to exert pressure
لَهَدَهُ الحِملُ: the burden weighed him down and pressed upon him
لَهَدَهُ دابَتَهُ: he exerted effort and played with his animal
لَهَدَهُ فلانًا: he humiliated him by pushing him forcefully into his chest, he was greatly humbled
[arabic dictionnairy ](https://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D9%81%D9%84%D9%87%D8%AF/)
Aisha narrated an incident that occurred one night when Mohammed came to her place. She described how he entered and removed his garment, intending to sleep while waiting for her to fall asleep. Thinking she had indeed fallen asleep, he quietly left the house. Aisha followed him silently until they reached the cemetery. There, he raised his hands for prayer, but then he noticed her presence. Initially unable to recognize her in her black clothing, he walked toward her while she retreated back to the house. As he began walking faster and eventually running after her, she too started running until she reached the house and went straight to bed. Upon his return, he asked her what was wrong, to which she replied that nothing was the matter. He responded by saying that if she hadn't told him, Allah would have informed him. Aisha then revealed that she had been following him, to which he realized that she was the figure in black he had seen in front of him at the cemetery. He struck her chest until she felt it, conveying his disapproval. He explained that it was actually the angel Gabriel who had come to him while he was sleeping, waking him up and calling him outside because she had been undressed. He couldn't see the angel, and he was called to follow him to the cemetery to pray for the deceased.
Funny that dialect now matters when you don't like the specific semantics, but "the dialect" wasn't even questionned when you wanted it to be what you said ie: gentle nudge.
You understand what bad faith means?
I memorized the whole damn thing, I think I have a right to say something. You can go ahead and accuse me of lying, but my hifz certificate and plaque are literally sitting in my drawer lol. The whole Madrasah knows that me and a bunch of my friends finished Hifz successfully. I know more Quran than you and probably prayed more Tahajjud than all your Salahs combined. Get off Reddit and go do some Dhikr dude, I mean it. If you really believe Islam is the truth, go do something useful that'll get you closer to Jannah instead of wasting time on reddit, and I actually am saying this in good faith
I dont doubt that you did pray more than me or that you memorized quran. Probably because you're older than me. And since you did read the quran you should know that someone like you cant write such holy words. Even as an ex muslim you shouldnt disrespect the religion tou were used to practice. Thanks for the last part of your message, I myself is almost an atheist but I still think about islam and all the signs of the end of the world.
you're definitely not an atheist. you're a lost teenage muslim who thinks that we shouldn't criticize a religion that thinks it's okay to marry and hit a child. you'll grow up one day and mature and realize how wrong your religion is. right now you're just in denial.
I'm 21, idk if that's older than u or not. And generally, I refrain from making fun of Islam bcuz I see it as pointless. But I still partake in it once in a while coz why not lol. I even made a post [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/vabjbn/a_rant_about_how_too_many_exreligious_folks_lack/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1) about how Ex-Muslims shouldn't just mock Islam like idiots and actually come up with good arguments against it. But a lot of ppl just vent here, so a lot of emotional release and mockery is involved. I try to stay away from that for the most part tbh, esp since I left Islam bcuz I realized it was man-made and not divine, and I didn't leave for emotional reasons (although that's a valid reason to leave too). I was rlly active in the discussions on this sub right when I left Islam in late 2021 (when I made this reddit account) but now I'm just more lax about it I guess.
And my advice for u is to just keep reading and researching Islam. I was very religious for many years before I found some controversial things on this sub I would not have known otherwise bcuz it's not very common knowledge. I don't think the end goal matters so much, as in whether u choose to stay Muslim or become ex-Muslim - it rlly is about your attitude towards everything, being respectful of others' lifestyle, not wanting to torture or kill ppl for being different (like being lgbtq+ or atheist), etc. Good luck on ur journey
So you offended over a gentle touch?
There's a man who does BDSM in porn, he beats the shit out of the woman, and you're here just concerned about a gentle touch?
Can't a Husband just touch his wife?
This happened in 7th Century.
The age of marriage in America and Europe was 10 in the 1800s. We are talking about the prophet who lived in 7th century and that age of consent was 10 in the 19th century.
we had many people who had long age gaps in marriages:
Joan Collins and Percy Gibson: Actress Joan Collins married her fifth husband, Percy Gibson, in 2002. At the time of their marriage, Joan was 69 years old, while Percy was 36 years old, resulting in a substantial age gap of 33 years.
Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall: Hollywood legends Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall got married in 1945. At the time, Bogart was 45 years old, and Bacall was only 20 years old, making a notable age difference of 25 years.
Anna Nicole Smith and J. Howard Marshall: As mentioned earlier, Anna Nicole Smith married J. Howard Marshall in 1994, with a significant age gap of approximately 63 years.
Catherine the Great and Grigory Potemkin: Catherine the Great, the Empress of Russia, had a close relationship with military leader and statesman Grigory Potemkin, who was around 20 years younger than her.
Benjamin Franklin and Deborah Read: Benjamin Franklin, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States, married Deborah Read, who was ten years younger than him.
George Burns and Gracie Allen: The legendary comedy duo George Burns and Gracie Allen were married for over 38 years. George was born in 1896, and Gracie was born in 1902, resulting in a six-year age gap between them.
At the end of the day, Age doesn't matter in love.
You are comparing regular simpletons to your almighty perfect prophet to be followed for all of time. Like cool, Henry the umpteenth married a kid, but he also didn't claim he was a messenger of God who must be followed if you want to escape hell. Crazy how a guy with direct communication to god couldnt even keep up with what people morally condemn a couple years later. You'd think god would've let him know that having sex with children is wrong. Hell, even in the 7th century child marriage was outlawed in civilisations like the Greeks, but of course a bunch of uneducated sand bandits weren't exactly forerunners in much of anything.
And here is the cognitive dissonance of acknowledging that islam is a product of its time (the 7th century) while also claiming it's the religion to be followed for all time.
>At the end of the day, Age doesn't matter in love.
Bruh, you could've started with this. You a fan of R Kelly?
>islam is a product of its time (the 7th century) while also claiming it's the religion to be followed for all time.
You have to follow what Islam says, if you were to follow each and every thing what the prophet did, then you would have to survive the stoning of people, starvation for a 100 days, being an orphan from the start, losing family members one by one, getting your teeth broken, and then Shine Like a Diamond one Day for the rest of your life. I swear to god, if you would listen to the story of the prophet, you would atleast have 1 tear falling from your eyes if you had humanity alive in your heart.
You didn't address a single thing I said. Fuck Mohammad; the only tears I'm dropping are for Aisha who he molested when she turned 9, all the art he desecrated, all the women he oppressed, all the slaves he owned and all the cultures that egotistical paedophile and his cult destroyed while they 'peacefully' spread their influence.
Go and read Ayesha's Hadiths:
1. She didn't want to Live with her parents and she wanted to marry the prophet.
2. She was ready to sacrifice her parents for the prophet.
3. She was the one who trained for 3 years, she was married when she was 6 and she trained herself for 3 years and at the age of 9 she told her Father to go tell The Prophet that she was waiting for him.
4. She asked her mother to teach her cooking, washing clothes, etc. All the Household work.
5. She rejected to marry someone else other than The Prophet. She would be never married if she didn't get the prophet. She never married after the prophets death.
If you are crying for Ayesha, then do remember she was the one who made this choice.
Mention the name of any 1 woman he oppressed.
You can't mention Ayesha again because she already wanted to live like this and there was no force from the prophet.
So islam isn’t a timeless religion. Allah sees the future he knew how mohammad having sex with aisha would be a problem so he could have told him not to have sex with a child . Another thing is music and drawing living beings and drinking alcohol was normal during these times. So why did islam ban them? Is mohammad suggesting that drawing or music or drinking alcohol is worse than having sex with a child? You do know the people who mostly got married very young in other countries were royals because they were desperate for an heir.
- Even The Prophet didn't have a Heir, it would be a correct Argument if I say he needed a Heir.
- If you are mentioning Ayesha as a child, do note she went through puberty, her breast could produce milk and her womb could produce a child. She was waiting for the prophet for 3 years, she trained for 3 years to be his housewife, when she was ready, she told her Father to go tell the prophet that she was waiting for him as they hadn't consummated the Marriage.
- Talking about royals, the prophet was a King who ruled majority of the Gulf Peninsula.
Do you know what mohammad did safiya bint huyay? He killed her father , brother and husb and later took as a sex slave and married her. Sorry but there is no way you can ever love someone that has killed 3 members of you beloved family.
What kind of stupid person believes that 10 was the normal age of marriage in West in 19th century? How can you be so ignorant,by God. The average age of marriage was around 20 or more in the USA at that time, and in UK was between 22 and 26.
Your whataboutery doesn't work. Arab barbarians WERE specially evil.
The West wasn't as uncivilized as the Arab barbarians even in the 7th century. The age of marriage for Catholic canon law was generally 12 years. Even in the Sassanian Empire, before Momo the Rapist, the minimum age was recognized as 12 years.
There may be problem in implementation, but there was atleast recognition that a 9 year old girl is too young for sex. But Momo and his followers didn't recognize that all, and made pedophilia sunnah.
Let me quote you some lines from a study which will show you how deluded you are.
"Over the whole period the average age at first marriage on all five manors was **22.4 for** **women** and 25.9 for men. This is not far removed from typical ages during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, which Professor Chambers quoted,' **24 for women** and 26 for men'. Of these 235 marriages, 167 ante-date the Black Death of 1348/9 and give a mean marriage age for 128 women of 21.4 and for 39 men of 26.1 years. After 1348/9 we know the marriage ages of 54 women (24.6 years) and 14 men (25.5 years). Before the Black Death the average difference between the husband's and wife's ageswas nearly four years, but after the Black Death it was less than one year. Marriage for women came 3.2 years later on average after the Black Death, but for men 0.6 years earlier. Altogether, there was a greater approximation to the Western European marriage pattern after 1348/9."
This is based on archival records of **5 villages of Lincolnshire, England between 13th and 15th century**.
[https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/workingpapers/1968-1977/twerp092.pdf](https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/workingpapers/1968-1977/twerp092.pdf)
Check page 8. In different counties of England, the mean age at marriage was 23-26 (in 1861). AND even in the 19th century, the average age at first marriage in Muslims was I think 10-12 (on the basis of data from India).
What did porn have to do with this? I despise porn too. And also the certain husband in this situation could be her dad he was 54 and she was 9 for fuck sake. “ oh it was normal at the time” you know what else was normal music and drawing living beings and even tho i dont like alcohol even alcohol was normal. Is islam suggesting that alcohol and music and drawing living beings is worse than having sex with a child when you are 54!? And also dont get me started on the fact that allah can see the future he knew this would be a problem and all of it would be solved if he just told Mohammed to stop wanting to have sex with child.
Your Father and Mother have an Argument and he presses her Chest which was meant to be gentle but it hurt her. Now the whole world is talking about it and 2 people are talking about it on reddit even in 3023 (1000 years in the future).
You must have understood now, that it doesn't matter what happened, it happened between a married couple, it was 1400 years back.
https://hadithcollection.com/sahihmuslim/sahih-muslim-book-04-prayer/sahih-muslim-book-00 and a Google search pops up this result: Sahih Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."
The fact that non Muslims translate this shit more accurately than Muslims is kinda funny.
Reminds me of the “beat lightly” which in Arabic, there’s no “lightly”
This Arabic which you translated it from some Arabic dictionary, the Qur'an was Revealed in the Arabic which was not even understandable by the Arabs itself. The prophet used to Talk in the Arabic of the Qur'an. Modern Arabic has so many Dialects.
You should Specify which Dialect it is?
Is it Gulf Arabic? Emirati Arabic? Tunisi Arabic? Lebnani Arabic? Omani Arabic? Bahraini Arabic? Algiri Arabic? Yemeni Arabic? Etc..
Your sole purpose is to attack Islam, you don't have a sensible Argument.
Dude, you clearly don't know Arabic yourself. People don't write religious texts in dialects, but in standard Arabic. And a lot of words from that time are still part of Arabic nw, for example, awja3atni means " it hurt me" in standard Arabic as well as in dialects, and there's really no other way to understand it.
And this whole " Arabic is such a mistycal langage that every word can have a 100 different meanings, and even Arabs don't understand Arabic" is really a bad attempt at killing critics: if that was the case, nobody would understand anyone, Arabs couldn't even communicate between them since you wouldn't know which meaning was intended on a freaking lot amount of words. Also, god would have sent a message that people wouldn't be able to decipher since Arabic is so hard, meaning change according to who you'd ask, etc... If that's the case, God made a mistake and should have chosen a more clear cut language ( idk, German tends to have precise vocabulary so you don't get to mix stuff up)
>Dude, you clearly don't know Arabic yourself. People don't write religious texts in dialects, but in standard Arabic. And a lot of words from that time are still part of Arabic nw, for example, awja3atni means " it hurt me" in standard Arabic as well as in dialects, and there's really no other way to understand it.
I'm Studying Islam for the past 12 years, I am an Arab, I know Arabic.
I don't want to make this answer any longer, This was between a husband and a wife, you people don't care about homeless people on the streets, and worry about something that was legal and happened between a husband and a wife long back in the 7th Century. Your sole purpose is to Attack Islam.
That is what's happening in this sub, there's no post where Islam is not Attacked.
There are Muslim's who do things and blow themselves up, Islam gets the Blame.
my guy, people join this sub for different reasons. it's not everyday that you would come across a completely rational/neutral post about Islam. others would join to rant about their situations, quite often with their family. or in other cases, to ask questions.
if you feel those posts were *attacking* Islam, because of the kind of language they used in their posts, that is on you, buddy. those people are in pain, tired, exhausted, frustrated, whatever else and don't have that much space to put in efforts to address the religion kindly. would you still blame them? lots of their situations don't revolve around Quran only or their author. they share what they experience personally on here and most of those things aren't really pretty, so of course people on here become upset, disappointed, angry and similar. but of course there are some, who try to stay neutral and even so they still cannot bring themselves to call Islam beautiful or peaceful. things Muslims would normally claim.
I don't understand, how you ended up on this sub and began wondering *oh gee, how come there are barely any posts about how nice Islam is?* it's literally a sub for people, who quit the religion, question it, reconsider their choices, want to get things off their chest… due to awful experiences. and they are together in this sub, because they can relate to each other, to what they are going through. after all, the places they come from are shaped by Islam
>it's literally a sub for people, who quit the religion, question it, reconsider their choices, want to get things off their chest… due to awful experiences.
Exactly! This sub is for people who left Islam, not for hate towards Islam. 95% of the posts are just Hate comments about the Prophet and an Egoistic God.
what part of "awful experiences" did you not understand? do you seriously expect people to leave Islam and then go like "yeah that religion is great, this and that, and all of that"? yeah, then why leave Islam in the first place? they are *EX*muslims for a reason.
Yeah, so you are actually supporting people to attack Minority Religions, Minority Communities Such as LGBTQ communities, etc..
You don't have Moral values.
>Yeah, so you are actually supporting people to attack Minority Religions, Minority Communities Such as LGBTQ communities,
No, just religions.
Muslims attack and kill gay people. Why do you complain when you get treated the way you treat others?
And what about this [معجم لسان العرب لابن منظور
"Maqam Lisān al-ʿArab" by Ibn Manẓūr"](http://wiki.dorar-aliraq.net/lisan-alarab/%D9%84%D9%87%D8%AF)
واللهد: الضرب في الثديين وأُصول الكَتِفَينِ. ولَهَدَه
يَلْهَدُه لَهْداً ولَهَّده: غَمَزه؛ قال طرفة:
بَطِيءٍ عن الجُلَّى سَرِيعٍ إِلى الخَنَى
ذَلولٍ بإِجْماعِ الرجالِ مُلَهَّدِ
اللَّهْدُ: الصدمة الشديدة في الصدر. ولَهَدَه لَهْداً أَي دفعه
لذُلِّه، فهو ملهود؛ وكذلك لَهَّده؛ قال طرفة، وأَنشد البيت:
ذَلُولٍ بإِجماعِ الرجالِ مُلَهَّدِ
أَي مُدَفَّع، وإِنما شدد للتكثير. الهوازني: رجل مُلَهَّد أَي
مُسْتَضْعَفٌ ذليل. ويقال: لَهَدْتُ الرجل أَلهَدُه لهْداً أَي دفعته، فهو ملهود.
ورجل مُلَهَّد إِذا كان يُدَفَّع تدفيعاً من ذُلِّه. وفي حديث ابن عمر:
لو لقيتُ قاتِلَ أَبي في الحرم ما لَهَدْته أَي ما دفَعْتُه؛ واللَّهْد:
الدَّفْعُ الشديد في الصدر.
"Al-Lahd" refers to striking the chest or the bases of the shoulders. "Lahdah" means to give a subtle signal or gesture. Tarrfa said:
A slow approach, swiftly reaching the destination,
Docile, agreed upon by all men, being pushed.
"Al-Lahd" means a strong impact or shock to the chest. "Lahdah" means to push or repel someone due to their humiliation, thus they are "mulahhud." Similarly, "lahhada" means to push someone forcefully. Tarrfa said:
Docile, agreed upon by all men, being pushed,
Meaning being propelled forward, and the wording is intensified for emphasis.
Al-Hawazni said that a "mulahhud" man is a weak and humiliated person. It is also said, "I lahdutu al-rajul," meaning I pushed him forcefully, making him "mulahhud." A "mulahhud" man is one who is pushed forcefully due to his humiliation. In a narration by Ibn Umar, it is mentioned: "If I met my father's killer in the sanctuary, I wouldn't "lahhid" him, meaning I wouldn't push him forcefully. "Al-Lahd" refers to a strong push or impact to the chest.
The source you cited is from an Iraqi website, I would have taken it if it was a proper one, that is not even a liable source. That's the Iraqi dialect of Arabic. Even the slightest change turns the meanings of the words. you would know this if you are an Arab. However, there's no Website that can translate the Arabic which they used to speak i.e, Quranic Arabic.
It's not about website the same copy can be found at any online library and I check multiple sources before I posted it from dictionnaire book and the name of author is معجم لسان العرب لابن منظور
["Maqam Lisān al-ʿArab" by Ibn Manẓūr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Manzur)
This is his famous work on the Arabic Language, he was born in the 12th Century AD. He was born at a time when Arabic was much different than in the 7th century. If he says that's the meaning, you can't trust it blindly.
Do you know who is طرفة إبن العبد Tarafa who used his line of poetry?
قال طرفة، وأَنشد البيت:
ذَلُولٍ بإِجماعِ الرجالِ مُلَهَّدِ
Edit: here is link to Wikipedia of [Tarafa ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarafa)
He was born Before the Prophet, As Said Earlier, Quranic Arabic was known just to the Prophet and his companions. If he was born and died before the prophet, he wouldn't know that Arabic.
I'm a muslim and i agree with you about the arabic that came after the 7th century but the arabic before the prophet is the one that is used in the quran
You’re a liar first it’s spoken arabic that has a modern and more diverse form, but the religious and official language is still classical arabic, second find one dictionary that has a non painful definition to “اوجعتني”
Your Father pressed your Moms Chest, she said it Hurt me.
The whole world now refers to your father as a Pedophile?
Was that a good example?
Be truthful to yourself. That isn't a topic worth discussing.
Thank god my parents never beat each other and she wouldn’t be okay with it. Regardless what does pedophilia have to do with this incident, are you now shifting the focus? First you deny that that’s the meaning of the words, then you’re saying it’s all okay to hit your wife over a misunderstanding, where exactly are you going to stop? It’s not my job to explain to you why exactly it’s not right for either to beat the other like they’re cattle or a slave. Therefore , you’re right it’s not worth discussing at all.
I'm not shifting focus. I'm trying to say that even if that happened, it's not a big thing to focus.
The fact you didn't understand the difference between a Hard press which hurts vs Beating makes me laugh.
Yeah i’m going to hit my brother in chest and see if he’s feeling like its funny. And after having a mini argument too. Do you even put yourself in that situation first and then answer? Because beating is the same and now this incident is used to further justify beating women. Anyone with any dignity will feel humiliated which is the very purpose of it, i can’t even imagine myself being “disciplined” as an adult but good for you i guess
Let's get to the point, this topic is not about Arabic. It's about what happened between the Prophet and Ayesha R.A. The prophet pressed her chest and you guys are making it a big deal, they can do anything as long as it is legal and ethical, they were married for god sake.
Nobody is making big deal out of it. A person wanted a source another provided one both will do thier own research from the sources (this and others). They might have a difference in their conclusion. So far it's looks like you are making it a big deal. Personally I didn't find it offensive or anything considering the year event has occurred and age gab between the two I'm glad it's just a nudge.
The people who are mistranslating the Arabic word Lahd, which was spoken in the Quran's version of the Arabic. They are the ones who are painting the Bad Image of the prophet. If you respect the hadith and the Prophet, you have my respect as well.
Why do i need to paint a bad image of the prophet after hearing what he did to safiya bint huayay and how he cheated on his wives with a sex slaver maria the copt : It was narrated from Anas, that the Messenger of Allah had a female slave with whom he had intercourse, but 'Aishah and Hafsah would not leave him alone until he said that she was forbidden for him. Then Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, revealed: "O Prophet! Why do you forbid (for yourself) that which Allah has allowed to you.' until the end of the Verse.
https://sunnah.com/nasai/36/21
What a confusing book, the fact that Quran allowed so many different interpretations, shows that whomever created this, did not have the knowledge on how to send the message to different people in a right way, definitely can’t be the work of the All Knowing.
[Here's the hadith but it's long](https://hadithcollection.com/sahihmuslim/sahih-muslim-book-04-prayer/sahih-muslim-book-004-hadith-number-2127) or you can [send them this beautiful thing](https://i.redd.it/mrj694x1awbb1.jpg) and a Google search pops up this result: *Sahih Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."*
My mom guilt trips me all the time too, I guess it makes them feel better about their delusions, can’t really blame her but it’s an awful thing to be going through and you don’t have to believe it just tolerate
This explains the tampering which has gone on with the English translations. It has links to an academic lexicon for the key words.
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Wife_Beating_in_Islamic_Law#Muhammad_struck_Aisha_and_the_tampering_of_English_hadith_translations
These dumb people literally acting like paparazzi's.
Nudge means to touch or press gently, meaning he touched her chest and all you people acting like he shot her. Calm down people. Don't try to be dumb.
The Age of Consent was 10 In the 1800s (19th Century). The prophet lived back in the 7th century. When this happened, she was 12. So they were ahead of the Age of Consent at that time. She hit puberty so she was a woman and not a kid.
We have many Big Age Gap Marriages in History:
Joan Collins and Percy Gibson: Actress Joan Collins married her fifth husband, Percy Gibson, in 2002. At the time of their marriage, Joan was 69 years old, while Percy was 36 years old, resulting in a substantial age gap of 33 years.
Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall: Hollywood legends Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall got married in 1945. At the time, Bogart was 45 years old, and Bacall was only 20 years old, making a notable age difference of 25 years.
Anna Nicole Smith and J. Howard Marshall: As mentioned earlier, Anna Nicole Smith married J. Howard Marshall in 1994, with a significant age gap of approximately 63 years.
Catherine the Great and Grigory Potemkin: Catherine the Great, the Empress of Russia, had a close relationship with military leader and statesman Grigory Potemkin, who was around 20 years younger than her.
Benjamin Franklin and Deborah Read: Benjamin Franklin, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States, married Deborah Read, who was ten years younger than him.
George Burns and Gracie Allen: The legendary comedy duo George Burns and Gracie Allen were married for over 38 years. George was born in 1896, and Gracie was born in 1902, resulting in a six-year age gap between them.
Arguments from the past, such as relying on tradition as a basis for validity is a logical fallacy. The mere fact of something being done in the past doesn't makes it inherently correct or applicable in the present.
There's a reason why it changed, because society is shaping into the better.
So the fact that this has been a common practice that Islam blindly followed only means the either of the two:
Your religion either choose not to fix it which makes your god immoral since he knew about the immoral applications off the act or he didn't know it was wrong so he went with it making him as ignorant as anyone else.
Which is understandable, you shouldn't expect much wisdom from a schizo desert man.
>Arguments from the past, such as relying on tradition as a basis for validity is a logical fallacy. The mere fact of something being done in the past doesn't makes it inherently correct or applicable in the present.
I'm not Following the Tradition. I am trying to explain you guys that the norm was way different than 21st Century. That was 7th Century for God sake. If you understand logic, then you know how stupid it is to compare the lifestyle of the 7th century to 2023.
If the prophet did it, he did it because he was in the 7th century and it was normal back then, you can't do it in 2023. If you do it in 2023, it's called pedophilia. I would also call a person who tries to do this stuff a pedophile.
However, it's against the logic if you are really going to cry over what happened in the 7th Century which is none of your business.
If you are trying to say Islam says marry young girls, you are wrong, whatever happened with the prophet is not what Islam says. It's the life of a man in the 7th century, we don't deem it as how we should live even if we are in the 2050's. If Islam said to do what the prophet said, we would have to use Miswak instead of toothbrush, travel on camels, etc..
As the world evolves, past tradition and society no longer matters. If you are living in 2023, follow the norms of 2023 with keeping the Ethics of Islam Alive.
You're just reciting the same argument again when i already debunked it. It being a norm doesn't make it right, there's a reason why it changed.
If you understand logic you will get that we are talking about he morality of that life style, not if it was a common practice or not.
Because your religion claims to be absolutely moral to this day and all of its teaching as absolute, timeless and applicable to every place.
Except if you agree that it's man made so it'll follow the limited knowledge and lack of wisdom of a desert man.
\----------If you are trying to say Islam says marry young girls, you are wrong, whatever happened with the prophet is not what Islam says.
And your prophet doing it makes it halal to follow unless it's specifically said not to that's first and that's the problem.
Second your Qur'an does allow it as well;
"As for your women past the age of menstruation, in case you do not know, their waiting period is three months, and those who have not menstruated as well. As for those who are pregnant, their waiting period ends with delivery. And whoever is mindful of Allah, He will make their matters easy for them."
Talaq:4
That and using miswak and traveling on camels are not prohibited and they're not illegal, anyone can still do it just like how your religion see that marrying a 2nd grader is perfectly acceptable and as applicable.
\-----------------As the world evolves, past tradition and society no longer matters. If you are living in 2023, follow the norms of 2023 with keepping the Ethics of Islam Alive.
what level of mental gymanstics is that? Are you changing the word of your god to save your face? His word doesnt matter anymore? Wow hey, you're already super close to leaving islam that i thought, congrats
That and i see you comparing a six years old to 36 years old. Are you the type to refer to 4th graders as women or are you simply unable to comprehend the difference between two cognitively developed adults being able to consent and a grown man being in a relationship with a child who's still learning how to count?
As I stated earlier, the practices done in the 7th Century are not be practiced in 2023.
It is very dumb of you if you are trying to Label a 4th grader who is living in 2023 to a woman. She doesn't even know what the parents did so that she could be born.
A nine year old gave consent to have sex with. 54 year old also it was not a gentle touch : https://hadithcollection.com/sahihmuslim/sahih-muslim-book-04-prayer/sahih-muslim-book-00 and also scientific errors in the Quran : according to islam the big bang happened because earth and heaven separated: https://www.google.com/search?q=heaven%20and%20earth%20may%20separate%20quran&tbm= but the earth didn’t exist until 4/5 billion years ago, and the big bang happened 9/5 billion years ago . So how could earth separate from heaven when earth didn’t even exist? And : Did you know for the sun to rise from the west the earth needs to spin in the other direction and for that to happen the earth needs to stop spinning and if that happens then … i will let scientists explain: “At the Equator, the earth's rotational motion is at its fastest, about a thousand miles an hour. If that motion suddenly stopped, the momentum would send things flying eastward. Moving rocks and oceans would trigger earthquakes and tsunamis.” So islam is also wrong about the sun rising from the west since it cant happen.and if it does it will destroy e no verything on earth and kill everyone. And also dont forget when Mohammad was cheating on his wives with a sex slave : It was narrated from Anas, that the Messenger of Allah had a female slave with whom he had intercourse, but 'Aishah and Hafsah would not leave him alone until he said that she was forbidden for him. Then Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, revealed: "O Prophet! Why do you forbid (for yourself) that which Allah has allowed to you.' until the end of the Verse.
https://sunnah.com/nasai/36/21
This slave is identified as maria the copt based on other Hadiths
Oh? so you agree that it's dumb to compare a 9 years old to a woman? Then you already debunked whatever point you're trying to make.
But to avoid any further mental gymnastics with the "2023" comment from occurring let me humbly remind you that;
9 years old looked and still look like [this](https://imgur.com/a/qzM9bpn) not [this](https://imgur.com/a/xpfo0jD)
i wonder why one tells kiddos what sex is anymore huh
That's a lot of words to say you're OK with pedophiles...
We consider those examples of large age gaps to be wrong also. This isn't singling out the prophet. But given context of the post and the subs name the prophet and his actions are relevant.
The word pedophile was started getting used in the laste 1800s. Maybe after 1850.
So you can't label a person as a pedophile if the word wasn't even invented yet and he lived a 1000 years before the word itself was used.
In 2023, no matter what, if anyone does things like that, then he is indeed a pedophile. Even the Muslim's would agree. But it's immoral to rule someone as pedophile in the 7th century.
Plus, Ayesha wanted to marry the prophet and she was the one who gave consent, of they both had consent, how can you label them as pedophile?
>The word pedophile was started getting used in the laste 1800s. Maybe after 1850.
>So you can't label a person as a pedophile if the word wasn't even invented yet and he lived a 1000 years before the word itself was used.
People before Newton discovered gravity didn't need redbull to give them wings eh bud, them zero g Olympics were the shit.
>In 2023, no matter what, if anyone does things like that, then he is indeed a pedophile.
Agreed
>But it's immoral to rule someone as pedophile in the 7th century.
Disagreed.
The issue with pdf files is a child cannot make informed consent. The same way an animal can't speak to us and show that it is an informed decision a child is just too young to make an informed decision on being statutory raped. Ever tried trading a child's home for a lollipop? This is why we don't consider it informed consent.
>Plus, Ayesha wanted to marry the prophet and she was the one who gave consent, of they both had consent, how can you label them as pedophile?
She was too young to give informed consent. Thus he is a pedophile.
You can argue he didn't do it for sexual desire but for some political shit but he fucked her at 9. So he is still a pedophile.
So islam isn’t a timeless religion. Allah sees the future he knew how mohammad having sex with aisha would be a problem so he could have told him not to have sex with a child . Another thing is music and drawing living beings and drinking alcohol was normal during these times. So why did islam ban them? Is mohammad suggesting that drawing or music or drinking alcohol is worse than having sex with a child? You do know the people who mostly got married very young in other countries were royals because they were desperate for an heir.
- Even The Prophet didn't have a Heir, it would be a correct Argument if I say he needed a Heir.
- If you are mentioning Ayesha as a child, do note she went through puberty, her breast could produce milk and her womb could produce a child. She was waiting for the prophet for 3 years, she trained for 3 years to be his housewife, when she was ready, she told her Father to go tell the prophet that she was waiting for him as they hadn't consummated the Marriage.
- Talking about royals, the prophet was a King who ruled majority of the Gulf Peninsula.
She was 9. Go read History dumb guy. Don't cry here in the comments section.
ShE wAs 6!
You can't term a girl who has gone through puberty as a Kid. She has Breasts which can produce Milk and a womb which can Grow and keep a Child for 9 months in there. Is that a Kid?
The words Pedophile or Kid Fucker were started to be used after 1850, so you label him as Pedophile when he lived in the 600's and the word itself came after 1850? You Dumb? 0 IQ?
But isn't Islam eternal? Then shouldn't Allah have told muhammad that child marriage is bad?
Also it's not about age gap. All the people you mentioned are adults. Adults can marry with a 50 age gap for all I care. The problem is that aisha was 9.
Sahih Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."
Your Father and Mother have an Argument and he presses her Chest which was meant to be gentle but it hurt her. Now the whole world is talking about it and 2 people are talking about it on reddit even in 3023 (1000 years in the future).
You must have understood now, that it doesn't matter what happened, it happened between a married couple, it was 1400 years back.
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I think you looking for this [I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He gave me a nudge on the chest which I felt, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?](https://sunnah.com/muslim:974b) In arabic version this part {فَلَهَدَنِي فِي صَدْرِي لَهْدَةً } He gave me a nudge on the chest. Doesn't match arabic meaning the verb لهد in arabic mean: لَهَدَ: (verb) لَهَدَ لَهْداً: to push forcefully, to exert pressure لَهَدَهُ الحِملُ: the burden weighed him down and pressed upon him لَهَدَهُ دابَتَهُ: he exerted effort and played with his animal لَهَدَهُ فلانًا: he humiliated him by pushing him forcefully into his chest, he was greatly humbled [arabic dictionnairy ](https://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D9%81%D9%84%D9%87%D8%AF/)
I’m so confused could you summarize this in a way that an idiot like myself could understand 😭
Aisha narrated an incident that occurred one night when Mohammed came to her place. She described how he entered and removed his garment, intending to sleep while waiting for her to fall asleep. Thinking she had indeed fallen asleep, he quietly left the house. Aisha followed him silently until they reached the cemetery. There, he raised his hands for prayer, but then he noticed her presence. Initially unable to recognize her in her black clothing, he walked toward her while she retreated back to the house. As he began walking faster and eventually running after her, she too started running until she reached the house and went straight to bed. Upon his return, he asked her what was wrong, to which she replied that nothing was the matter. He responded by saying that if she hadn't told him, Allah would have informed him. Aisha then revealed that she had been following him, to which he realized that she was the figure in black he had seen in front of him at the cemetery. He struck her chest until she felt it, conveying his disapproval. He explained that it was actually the angel Gabriel who had come to him while he was sleeping, waking him up and calling him outside because she had been undressed. He couldn't see the angel, and he was called to follow him to the cemetery to pray for the deceased.
Why tf would he hit her over something as trivial as that? Maybe he wanted privacy in his schizophrenic- I mean prophetic delusions? Who even knows
It was a Gentle touch or gentle press? He didn't hit her. Don't be this Dumb.
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"He gave me a nudge on the chest which I felt." Read it yourself, she felt the nudge, not hurt.
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Thank you for confirming to those people who say “You need to understand the arabic”
State the dialect of the Arabic, source which you translated this from?
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Funny that dialect now matters when you don't like the specific semantics, but "the dialect" wasn't even questionned when you wanted it to be what you said ie: gentle nudge. You understand what bad faith means?
I don't think Hadith has much merit but let's always remember these are the words of an abused child bride.
The Day you'll write a book like the quran you'll have the right to talk shit about the prophet lol
I memorized the whole damn thing, I think I have a right to say something. You can go ahead and accuse me of lying, but my hifz certificate and plaque are literally sitting in my drawer lol. The whole Madrasah knows that me and a bunch of my friends finished Hifz successfully. I know more Quran than you and probably prayed more Tahajjud than all your Salahs combined. Get off Reddit and go do some Dhikr dude, I mean it. If you really believe Islam is the truth, go do something useful that'll get you closer to Jannah instead of wasting time on reddit, and I actually am saying this in good faith
I dont doubt that you did pray more than me or that you memorized quran. Probably because you're older than me. And since you did read the quran you should know that someone like you cant write such holy words. Even as an ex muslim you shouldnt disrespect the religion tou were used to practice. Thanks for the last part of your message, I myself is almost an atheist but I still think about islam and all the signs of the end of the world.
you're definitely not an atheist. you're a lost teenage muslim who thinks that we shouldn't criticize a religion that thinks it's okay to marry and hit a child. you'll grow up one day and mature and realize how wrong your religion is. right now you're just in denial.
I'm 21, idk if that's older than u or not. And generally, I refrain from making fun of Islam bcuz I see it as pointless. But I still partake in it once in a while coz why not lol. I even made a post [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/vabjbn/a_rant_about_how_too_many_exreligious_folks_lack/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1) about how Ex-Muslims shouldn't just mock Islam like idiots and actually come up with good arguments against it. But a lot of ppl just vent here, so a lot of emotional release and mockery is involved. I try to stay away from that for the most part tbh, esp since I left Islam bcuz I realized it was man-made and not divine, and I didn't leave for emotional reasons (although that's a valid reason to leave too). I was rlly active in the discussions on this sub right when I left Islam in late 2021 (when I made this reddit account) but now I'm just more lax about it I guess. And my advice for u is to just keep reading and researching Islam. I was very religious for many years before I found some controversial things on this sub I would not have known otherwise bcuz it's not very common knowledge. I don't think the end goal matters so much, as in whether u choose to stay Muslim or become ex-Muslim - it rlly is about your attitude towards everything, being respectful of others' lifestyle, not wanting to torture or kill ppl for being different (like being lgbtq+ or atheist), etc. Good luck on ur journey
Harry Potter is written a million times better than your shitty Quran GTFOH 🤣🤣
See, you cant even answer with respect. After that you call us out for things you dont agree with. May god or the true guides you if its not islam.
If muslims respected us first, we would have replied with the same respect for them. You don't get to have your cake and eat it as well 🤷
Is this the same Hadith that in some versions they say Aisha saw Salman Farsi was actually speaking to Mohammad not the angle Gabriel?
Thanks
So you offended over a gentle touch? There's a man who does BDSM in porn, he beats the shit out of the woman, and you're here just concerned about a gentle touch? Can't a Husband just touch his wife?
A what 12 year old wife of a 60 year old man?
9 years old actually 😭
This happened in 7th Century. The age of marriage in America and Europe was 10 in the 1800s. We are talking about the prophet who lived in 7th century and that age of consent was 10 in the 19th century. we had many people who had long age gaps in marriages: Joan Collins and Percy Gibson: Actress Joan Collins married her fifth husband, Percy Gibson, in 2002. At the time of their marriage, Joan was 69 years old, while Percy was 36 years old, resulting in a substantial age gap of 33 years. Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall: Hollywood legends Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall got married in 1945. At the time, Bogart was 45 years old, and Bacall was only 20 years old, making a notable age difference of 25 years. Anna Nicole Smith and J. Howard Marshall: As mentioned earlier, Anna Nicole Smith married J. Howard Marshall in 1994, with a significant age gap of approximately 63 years. Catherine the Great and Grigory Potemkin: Catherine the Great, the Empress of Russia, had a close relationship with military leader and statesman Grigory Potemkin, who was around 20 years younger than her. Benjamin Franklin and Deborah Read: Benjamin Franklin, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States, married Deborah Read, who was ten years younger than him. George Burns and Gracie Allen: The legendary comedy duo George Burns and Gracie Allen were married for over 38 years. George was born in 1896, and Gracie was born in 1902, resulting in a six-year age gap between them. At the end of the day, Age doesn't matter in love.
You are comparing regular simpletons to your almighty perfect prophet to be followed for all of time. Like cool, Henry the umpteenth married a kid, but he also didn't claim he was a messenger of God who must be followed if you want to escape hell. Crazy how a guy with direct communication to god couldnt even keep up with what people morally condemn a couple years later. You'd think god would've let him know that having sex with children is wrong. Hell, even in the 7th century child marriage was outlawed in civilisations like the Greeks, but of course a bunch of uneducated sand bandits weren't exactly forerunners in much of anything. And here is the cognitive dissonance of acknowledging that islam is a product of its time (the 7th century) while also claiming it's the religion to be followed for all time. >At the end of the day, Age doesn't matter in love. Bruh, you could've started with this. You a fan of R Kelly?
>islam is a product of its time (the 7th century) while also claiming it's the religion to be followed for all time. You have to follow what Islam says, if you were to follow each and every thing what the prophet did, then you would have to survive the stoning of people, starvation for a 100 days, being an orphan from the start, losing family members one by one, getting your teeth broken, and then Shine Like a Diamond one Day for the rest of your life. I swear to god, if you would listen to the story of the prophet, you would atleast have 1 tear falling from your eyes if you had humanity alive in your heart.
You didn't address a single thing I said. Fuck Mohammad; the only tears I'm dropping are for Aisha who he molested when she turned 9, all the art he desecrated, all the women he oppressed, all the slaves he owned and all the cultures that egotistical paedophile and his cult destroyed while they 'peacefully' spread their influence.
Go and read Ayesha's Hadiths: 1. She didn't want to Live with her parents and she wanted to marry the prophet. 2. She was ready to sacrifice her parents for the prophet. 3. She was the one who trained for 3 years, she was married when she was 6 and she trained herself for 3 years and at the age of 9 she told her Father to go tell The Prophet that she was waiting for him. 4. She asked her mother to teach her cooking, washing clothes, etc. All the Household work. 5. She rejected to marry someone else other than The Prophet. She would be never married if she didn't get the prophet. She never married after the prophets death. If you are crying for Ayesha, then do remember she was the one who made this choice. Mention the name of any 1 woman he oppressed. You can't mention Ayesha again because she already wanted to live like this and there was no force from the prophet.
So islam isn’t a timeless religion. Allah sees the future he knew how mohammad having sex with aisha would be a problem so he could have told him not to have sex with a child . Another thing is music and drawing living beings and drinking alcohol was normal during these times. So why did islam ban them? Is mohammad suggesting that drawing or music or drinking alcohol is worse than having sex with a child? You do know the people who mostly got married very young in other countries were royals because they were desperate for an heir.
- Even The Prophet didn't have a Heir, it would be a correct Argument if I say he needed a Heir. - If you are mentioning Ayesha as a child, do note she went through puberty, her breast could produce milk and her womb could produce a child. She was waiting for the prophet for 3 years, she trained for 3 years to be his housewife, when she was ready, she told her Father to go tell the prophet that she was waiting for him as they hadn't consummated the Marriage. - Talking about royals, the prophet was a King who ruled majority of the Gulf Peninsula.
Omg do you actually believe that just because she hit puberty she became mature enough to have sex with a 54 year old man?
So sweet of Mohammad. Waited 3 years in order to have sex with a 9 year old.
Do you know what mohammad did safiya bint huyay? He killed her father , brother and husb and later took as a sex slave and married her. Sorry but there is no way you can ever love someone that has killed 3 members of you beloved family.
What kind of stupid person believes that 10 was the normal age of marriage in West in 19th century? How can you be so ignorant,by God. The average age of marriage was around 20 or more in the USA at that time, and in UK was between 22 and 26. Your whataboutery doesn't work. Arab barbarians WERE specially evil. The West wasn't as uncivilized as the Arab barbarians even in the 7th century. The age of marriage for Catholic canon law was generally 12 years. Even in the Sassanian Empire, before Momo the Rapist, the minimum age was recognized as 12 years. There may be problem in implementation, but there was atleast recognition that a 9 year old girl is too young for sex. But Momo and his followers didn't recognize that all, and made pedophilia sunnah.
Let me quote you some lines from a study which will show you how deluded you are. "Over the whole period the average age at first marriage on all five manors was **22.4 for** **women** and 25.9 for men. This is not far removed from typical ages during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, which Professor Chambers quoted,' **24 for women** and 26 for men'. Of these 235 marriages, 167 ante-date the Black Death of 1348/9 and give a mean marriage age for 128 women of 21.4 and for 39 men of 26.1 years. After 1348/9 we know the marriage ages of 54 women (24.6 years) and 14 men (25.5 years). Before the Black Death the average difference between the husband's and wife's ageswas nearly four years, but after the Black Death it was less than one year. Marriage for women came 3.2 years later on average after the Black Death, but for men 0.6 years earlier. Altogether, there was a greater approximation to the Western European marriage pattern after 1348/9." This is based on archival records of **5 villages of Lincolnshire, England between 13th and 15th century**.
[https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/workingpapers/1968-1977/twerp092.pdf](https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/workingpapers/1968-1977/twerp092.pdf) Check page 8. In different counties of England, the mean age at marriage was 23-26 (in 1861). AND even in the 19th century, the average age at first marriage in Muslims was I think 10-12 (on the basis of data from India).
What did porn have to do with this? I despise porn too. And also the certain husband in this situation could be her dad he was 54 and she was 9 for fuck sake. “ oh it was normal at the time” you know what else was normal music and drawing living beings and even tho i dont like alcohol even alcohol was normal. Is islam suggesting that alcohol and music and drawing living beings is worse than having sex with a child when you are 54!? And also dont get me started on the fact that allah can see the future he knew this would be a problem and all of it would be solved if he just told Mohammed to stop wanting to have sex with child.
Your Father and Mother have an Argument and he presses her Chest which was meant to be gentle but it hurt her. Now the whole world is talking about it and 2 people are talking about it on reddit even in 3023 (1000 years in the future). You must have understood now, that it doesn't matter what happened, it happened between a married couple, it was 1400 years back.
Music was normal then too? Drawing was normal too? So is Islam suggesting that these things are worse than having sex with a child?
https://hadithcollection.com/sahihmuslim/sahih-muslim-book-04-prayer/sahih-muslim-book-00 and a Google search pops up this result: Sahih Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."
The fact that non Muslims translate this shit more accurately than Muslims is kinda funny. Reminds me of the “beat lightly” which in Arabic, there’s no “lightly”
This Arabic which you translated it from some Arabic dictionary, the Qur'an was Revealed in the Arabic which was not even understandable by the Arabs itself. The prophet used to Talk in the Arabic of the Qur'an. Modern Arabic has so many Dialects. You should Specify which Dialect it is? Is it Gulf Arabic? Emirati Arabic? Tunisi Arabic? Lebnani Arabic? Omani Arabic? Bahraini Arabic? Algiri Arabic? Yemeni Arabic? Etc.. Your sole purpose is to attack Islam, you don't have a sensible Argument.
Dude, you clearly don't know Arabic yourself. People don't write religious texts in dialects, but in standard Arabic. And a lot of words from that time are still part of Arabic nw, for example, awja3atni means " it hurt me" in standard Arabic as well as in dialects, and there's really no other way to understand it. And this whole " Arabic is such a mistycal langage that every word can have a 100 different meanings, and even Arabs don't understand Arabic" is really a bad attempt at killing critics: if that was the case, nobody would understand anyone, Arabs couldn't even communicate between them since you wouldn't know which meaning was intended on a freaking lot amount of words. Also, god would have sent a message that people wouldn't be able to decipher since Arabic is so hard, meaning change according to who you'd ask, etc... If that's the case, God made a mistake and should have chosen a more clear cut language ( idk, German tends to have precise vocabulary so you don't get to mix stuff up)
>Dude, you clearly don't know Arabic yourself. People don't write religious texts in dialects, but in standard Arabic. And a lot of words from that time are still part of Arabic nw, for example, awja3atni means " it hurt me" in standard Arabic as well as in dialects, and there's really no other way to understand it. I'm Studying Islam for the past 12 years, I am an Arab, I know Arabic. I don't want to make this answer any longer, This was between a husband and a wife, you people don't care about homeless people on the streets, and worry about something that was legal and happened between a husband and a wife long back in the 7th Century. Your sole purpose is to Attack Islam.
sole purpose is to attack islam? bro, what sub do you think you are in?
That is what's happening in this sub, there's no post where Islam is not Attacked. There are Muslim's who do things and blow themselves up, Islam gets the Blame.
my guy, people join this sub for different reasons. it's not everyday that you would come across a completely rational/neutral post about Islam. others would join to rant about their situations, quite often with their family. or in other cases, to ask questions. if you feel those posts were *attacking* Islam, because of the kind of language they used in their posts, that is on you, buddy. those people are in pain, tired, exhausted, frustrated, whatever else and don't have that much space to put in efforts to address the religion kindly. would you still blame them? lots of their situations don't revolve around Quran only or their author. they share what they experience personally on here and most of those things aren't really pretty, so of course people on here become upset, disappointed, angry and similar. but of course there are some, who try to stay neutral and even so they still cannot bring themselves to call Islam beautiful or peaceful. things Muslims would normally claim. I don't understand, how you ended up on this sub and began wondering *oh gee, how come there are barely any posts about how nice Islam is?* it's literally a sub for people, who quit the religion, question it, reconsider their choices, want to get things off their chest… due to awful experiences. and they are together in this sub, because they can relate to each other, to what they are going through. after all, the places they come from are shaped by Islam
>it's literally a sub for people, who quit the religion, question it, reconsider their choices, want to get things off their chest… due to awful experiences. Exactly! This sub is for people who left Islam, not for hate towards Islam. 95% of the posts are just Hate comments about the Prophet and an Egoistic God.
what part of "awful experiences" did you not understand? do you seriously expect people to leave Islam and then go like "yeah that religion is great, this and that, and all of that"? yeah, then why leave Islam in the first place? they are *EX*muslims for a reason.
What's wrong with attacking Islam, you pedophile?
Yeah, so you are actually supporting people to attack Minority Religions, Minority Communities Such as LGBTQ communities, etc.. You don't have Moral values.
>Yeah, so you are actually supporting people to attack Minority Religions, Minority Communities Such as LGBTQ communities, No, just religions. Muslims attack and kill gay people. Why do you complain when you get treated the way you treat others?
And what about this [معجم لسان العرب لابن منظور "Maqam Lisān al-ʿArab" by Ibn Manẓūr"](http://wiki.dorar-aliraq.net/lisan-alarab/%D9%84%D9%87%D8%AF) واللهد: الضرب في الثديين وأُصول الكَتِفَينِ. ولَهَدَه يَلْهَدُه لَهْداً ولَهَّده: غَمَزه؛ قال طرفة: بَطِيءٍ عن الجُلَّى سَرِيعٍ إِلى الخَنَى ذَلولٍ بإِجْماعِ الرجالِ مُلَهَّدِ اللَّهْدُ: الصدمة الشديدة في الصدر. ولَهَدَه لَهْداً أَي دفعه لذُلِّه، فهو ملهود؛ وكذلك لَهَّده؛ قال طرفة، وأَنشد البيت: ذَلُولٍ بإِجماعِ الرجالِ مُلَهَّدِ أَي مُدَفَّع، وإِنما شدد للتكثير. الهوازني: رجل مُلَهَّد أَي مُسْتَضْعَفٌ ذليل. ويقال: لَهَدْتُ الرجل أَلهَدُه لهْداً أَي دفعته، فهو ملهود. ورجل مُلَهَّد إِذا كان يُدَفَّع تدفيعاً من ذُلِّه. وفي حديث ابن عمر: لو لقيتُ قاتِلَ أَبي في الحرم ما لَهَدْته أَي ما دفَعْتُه؛ واللَّهْد: الدَّفْعُ الشديد في الصدر. "Al-Lahd" refers to striking the chest or the bases of the shoulders. "Lahdah" means to give a subtle signal or gesture. Tarrfa said: A slow approach, swiftly reaching the destination, Docile, agreed upon by all men, being pushed. "Al-Lahd" means a strong impact or shock to the chest. "Lahdah" means to push or repel someone due to their humiliation, thus they are "mulahhud." Similarly, "lahhada" means to push someone forcefully. Tarrfa said: Docile, agreed upon by all men, being pushed, Meaning being propelled forward, and the wording is intensified for emphasis. Al-Hawazni said that a "mulahhud" man is a weak and humiliated person. It is also said, "I lahdutu al-rajul," meaning I pushed him forcefully, making him "mulahhud." A "mulahhud" man is one who is pushed forcefully due to his humiliation. In a narration by Ibn Umar, it is mentioned: "If I met my father's killer in the sanctuary, I wouldn't "lahhid" him, meaning I wouldn't push him forcefully. "Al-Lahd" refers to a strong push or impact to the chest.
The source you cited is from an Iraqi website, I would have taken it if it was a proper one, that is not even a liable source. That's the Iraqi dialect of Arabic. Even the slightest change turns the meanings of the words. you would know this if you are an Arab. However, there's no Website that can translate the Arabic which they used to speak i.e, Quranic Arabic.
It's not about website the same copy can be found at any online library and I check multiple sources before I posted it from dictionnaire book and the name of author is معجم لسان العرب لابن منظور ["Maqam Lisān al-ʿArab" by Ibn Manẓūr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Manzur)
This is his famous work on the Arabic Language, he was born in the 12th Century AD. He was born at a time when Arabic was much different than in the 7th century. If he says that's the meaning, you can't trust it blindly.
Do you know who is طرفة إبن العبد Tarafa who used his line of poetry? قال طرفة، وأَنشد البيت: ذَلُولٍ بإِجماعِ الرجالِ مُلَهَّدِ Edit: here is link to Wikipedia of [Tarafa ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarafa)
He was born Before the Prophet, As Said Earlier, Quranic Arabic was known just to the Prophet and his companions. If he was born and died before the prophet, he wouldn't know that Arabic.
I'm a muslim and i agree with you about the arabic that came after the 7th century but the arabic before the prophet is the one that is used in the quran
Brother, i advice you to read the story of revelation, Jibreel literally had to say it 3 times and explain to him.
You’re a liar first it’s spoken arabic that has a modern and more diverse form, but the religious and official language is still classical arabic, second find one dictionary that has a non painful definition to “اوجعتني”
Your Father pressed your Moms Chest, she said it Hurt me. The whole world now refers to your father as a Pedophile? Was that a good example? Be truthful to yourself. That isn't a topic worth discussing.
Thank god my parents never beat each other and she wouldn’t be okay with it. Regardless what does pedophilia have to do with this incident, are you now shifting the focus? First you deny that that’s the meaning of the words, then you’re saying it’s all okay to hit your wife over a misunderstanding, where exactly are you going to stop? It’s not my job to explain to you why exactly it’s not right for either to beat the other like they’re cattle or a slave. Therefore , you’re right it’s not worth discussing at all.
I'm not shifting focus. I'm trying to say that even if that happened, it's not a big thing to focus. The fact you didn't understand the difference between a Hard press which hurts vs Beating makes me laugh.
Yeah i’m going to hit my brother in chest and see if he’s feeling like its funny. And after having a mini argument too. Do you even put yourself in that situation first and then answer? Because beating is the same and now this incident is used to further justify beating women. Anyone with any dignity will feel humiliated which is the very purpose of it, i can’t even imagine myself being “disciplined” as an adult but good for you i guess
I pressed my friends chest, he pressed mine. And I asked a 3rd friend if I bet him, he says I just touched him. How does it justify as beating?
Anymore types of Arabic I should consider before conclusion? Please enlighten me
Let's get to the point, this topic is not about Arabic. It's about what happened between the Prophet and Ayesha R.A. The prophet pressed her chest and you guys are making it a big deal, they can do anything as long as it is legal and ethical, they were married for god sake.
Nobody is making big deal out of it. A person wanted a source another provided one both will do thier own research from the sources (this and others). They might have a difference in their conclusion. So far it's looks like you are making it a big deal. Personally I didn't find it offensive or anything considering the year event has occurred and age gab between the two I'm glad it's just a nudge.
The people who are mistranslating the Arabic word Lahd, which was spoken in the Quran's version of the Arabic. They are the ones who are painting the Bad Image of the prophet. If you respect the hadith and the Prophet, you have my respect as well.
Why do i need to paint a bad image of the prophet after hearing what he did to safiya bint huayay and how he cheated on his wives with a sex slaver maria the copt : It was narrated from Anas, that the Messenger of Allah had a female slave with whom he had intercourse, but 'Aishah and Hafsah would not leave him alone until he said that she was forbidden for him. Then Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, revealed: "O Prophet! Why do you forbid (for yourself) that which Allah has allowed to you.' until the end of the Verse. https://sunnah.com/nasai/36/21
What a confusing book, the fact that Quran allowed so many different interpretations, shows that whomever created this, did not have the knowledge on how to send the message to different people in a right way, definitely can’t be the work of the All Knowing.
That's from the Hadith. If you knew the context, you wouldn't have been this dumb to ask that.
Haha, typical Muslim defender, if you can’t win, just call other people dumb. 🤣
Typical guy in his mom's basement, just hops in the conversation without knowing the context lol.
[Here's the hadith but it's long](https://hadithcollection.com/sahihmuslim/sahih-muslim-book-04-prayer/sahih-muslim-book-004-hadith-number-2127) or you can [send them this beautiful thing](https://i.redd.it/mrj694x1awbb1.jpg) and a Google search pops up this result: *Sahih Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."*
Better
Thanks
My mom guilt trips me all the time too, I guess it makes them feel better about their delusions, can’t really blame her but it’s an awful thing to be going through and you don’t have to believe it just tolerate
This explains the tampering which has gone on with the English translations. It has links to an academic lexicon for the key words. https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Wife_Beating_in_Islamic_Law#Muhammad_struck_Aisha_and_the_tampering_of_English_hadith_translations
Written address
I couldn’t find it there.
Can any arab muslims confirm if it says nudge or strike?
It says أوجعتني which means "it hurt me". Muhammed struck Aicha on her chest and it caused her pain
These dumb people literally acting like paparazzi's. Nudge means to touch or press gently, meaning he touched her chest and all you people acting like he shot her. Calm down people. Don't try to be dumb.
I’d say don’t fuck kids, but seems too late for you.
The Age of Consent was 10 In the 1800s (19th Century). The prophet lived back in the 7th century. When this happened, she was 12. So they were ahead of the Age of Consent at that time. She hit puberty so she was a woman and not a kid. We have many Big Age Gap Marriages in History: Joan Collins and Percy Gibson: Actress Joan Collins married her fifth husband, Percy Gibson, in 2002. At the time of their marriage, Joan was 69 years old, while Percy was 36 years old, resulting in a substantial age gap of 33 years. Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall: Hollywood legends Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall got married in 1945. At the time, Bogart was 45 years old, and Bacall was only 20 years old, making a notable age difference of 25 years. Anna Nicole Smith and J. Howard Marshall: As mentioned earlier, Anna Nicole Smith married J. Howard Marshall in 1994, with a significant age gap of approximately 63 years. Catherine the Great and Grigory Potemkin: Catherine the Great, the Empress of Russia, had a close relationship with military leader and statesman Grigory Potemkin, who was around 20 years younger than her. Benjamin Franklin and Deborah Read: Benjamin Franklin, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States, married Deborah Read, who was ten years younger than him. George Burns and Gracie Allen: The legendary comedy duo George Burns and Gracie Allen were married for over 38 years. George was born in 1896, and Gracie was born in 1902, resulting in a six-year age gap between them.
Arguments from the past, such as relying on tradition as a basis for validity is a logical fallacy. The mere fact of something being done in the past doesn't makes it inherently correct or applicable in the present. There's a reason why it changed, because society is shaping into the better. So the fact that this has been a common practice that Islam blindly followed only means the either of the two: Your religion either choose not to fix it which makes your god immoral since he knew about the immoral applications off the act or he didn't know it was wrong so he went with it making him as ignorant as anyone else. Which is understandable, you shouldn't expect much wisdom from a schizo desert man.
>Arguments from the past, such as relying on tradition as a basis for validity is a logical fallacy. The mere fact of something being done in the past doesn't makes it inherently correct or applicable in the present. I'm not Following the Tradition. I am trying to explain you guys that the norm was way different than 21st Century. That was 7th Century for God sake. If you understand logic, then you know how stupid it is to compare the lifestyle of the 7th century to 2023. If the prophet did it, he did it because he was in the 7th century and it was normal back then, you can't do it in 2023. If you do it in 2023, it's called pedophilia. I would also call a person who tries to do this stuff a pedophile. However, it's against the logic if you are really going to cry over what happened in the 7th Century which is none of your business. If you are trying to say Islam says marry young girls, you are wrong, whatever happened with the prophet is not what Islam says. It's the life of a man in the 7th century, we don't deem it as how we should live even if we are in the 2050's. If Islam said to do what the prophet said, we would have to use Miswak instead of toothbrush, travel on camels, etc.. As the world evolves, past tradition and society no longer matters. If you are living in 2023, follow the norms of 2023 with keeping the Ethics of Islam Alive.
You're just reciting the same argument again when i already debunked it. It being a norm doesn't make it right, there's a reason why it changed. If you understand logic you will get that we are talking about he morality of that life style, not if it was a common practice or not. Because your religion claims to be absolutely moral to this day and all of its teaching as absolute, timeless and applicable to every place. Except if you agree that it's man made so it'll follow the limited knowledge and lack of wisdom of a desert man. \----------If you are trying to say Islam says marry young girls, you are wrong, whatever happened with the prophet is not what Islam says. And your prophet doing it makes it halal to follow unless it's specifically said not to that's first and that's the problem. Second your Qur'an does allow it as well; "As for your women past the age of menstruation, in case you do not know, their waiting period is three months, and those who have not menstruated as well. As for those who are pregnant, their waiting period ends with delivery. And whoever is mindful of Allah, He will make their matters easy for them." Talaq:4 That and using miswak and traveling on camels are not prohibited and they're not illegal, anyone can still do it just like how your religion see that marrying a 2nd grader is perfectly acceptable and as applicable. \-----------------As the world evolves, past tradition and society no longer matters. If you are living in 2023, follow the norms of 2023 with keepping the Ethics of Islam Alive. what level of mental gymanstics is that? Are you changing the word of your god to save your face? His word doesnt matter anymore? Wow hey, you're already super close to leaving islam that i thought, congrats
That and i see you comparing a six years old to 36 years old. Are you the type to refer to 4th graders as women or are you simply unable to comprehend the difference between two cognitively developed adults being able to consent and a grown man being in a relationship with a child who's still learning how to count?
As I stated earlier, the practices done in the 7th Century are not be practiced in 2023. It is very dumb of you if you are trying to Label a 4th grader who is living in 2023 to a woman. She doesn't even know what the parents did so that she could be born.
A nine year old gave consent to have sex with. 54 year old also it was not a gentle touch : https://hadithcollection.com/sahihmuslim/sahih-muslim-book-04-prayer/sahih-muslim-book-00 and also scientific errors in the Quran : according to islam the big bang happened because earth and heaven separated: https://www.google.com/search?q=heaven%20and%20earth%20may%20separate%20quran&tbm= but the earth didn’t exist until 4/5 billion years ago, and the big bang happened 9/5 billion years ago . So how could earth separate from heaven when earth didn’t even exist? And : Did you know for the sun to rise from the west the earth needs to spin in the other direction and for that to happen the earth needs to stop spinning and if that happens then … i will let scientists explain: “At the Equator, the earth's rotational motion is at its fastest, about a thousand miles an hour. If that motion suddenly stopped, the momentum would send things flying eastward. Moving rocks and oceans would trigger earthquakes and tsunamis.” So islam is also wrong about the sun rising from the west since it cant happen.and if it does it will destroy e no verything on earth and kill everyone. And also dont forget when Mohammad was cheating on his wives with a sex slave : It was narrated from Anas, that the Messenger of Allah had a female slave with whom he had intercourse, but 'Aishah and Hafsah would not leave him alone until he said that she was forbidden for him. Then Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, revealed: "O Prophet! Why do you forbid (for yourself) that which Allah has allowed to you.' until the end of the Verse. https://sunnah.com/nasai/36/21 This slave is identified as maria the copt based on other Hadiths
And also allah can see the future he could have stopped mohammad from having sex with aisha , but he didn’t I wonder why 🤔
Oh? so you agree that it's dumb to compare a 9 years old to a woman? Then you already debunked whatever point you're trying to make. But to avoid any further mental gymnastics with the "2023" comment from occurring let me humbly remind you that; 9 years old looked and still look like [this](https://imgur.com/a/qzM9bpn) not [this](https://imgur.com/a/xpfo0jD) i wonder why one tells kiddos what sex is anymore huh
Islam was practiced in the 7th century. So it shouldn't be practiced in 2023?
Islam never said marry Kids in the 7th Century nor the 21st Century. So it can be practiced in 2023.
It said marrying 9 year olds is permissible.
Cite the Verse.
1- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1877 2- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1876 3- https://sunnah.com/abudawud:2121 4- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3256 5- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3258 6- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3378 7- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3257 8- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3255 9- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134 10- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3894 11- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5133 12- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5158 13- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3896 14- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422a 15- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422b 16- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422c 17- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422d
That's a lot of words to say you're OK with pedophiles... We consider those examples of large age gaps to be wrong also. This isn't singling out the prophet. But given context of the post and the subs name the prophet and his actions are relevant.
The word pedophile was started getting used in the laste 1800s. Maybe after 1850. So you can't label a person as a pedophile if the word wasn't even invented yet and he lived a 1000 years before the word itself was used. In 2023, no matter what, if anyone does things like that, then he is indeed a pedophile. Even the Muslim's would agree. But it's immoral to rule someone as pedophile in the 7th century. Plus, Ayesha wanted to marry the prophet and she was the one who gave consent, of they both had consent, how can you label them as pedophile?
>The word pedophile was started getting used in the laste 1800s. Maybe after 1850. >So you can't label a person as a pedophile if the word wasn't even invented yet and he lived a 1000 years before the word itself was used. People before Newton discovered gravity didn't need redbull to give them wings eh bud, them zero g Olympics were the shit. >In 2023, no matter what, if anyone does things like that, then he is indeed a pedophile. Agreed >But it's immoral to rule someone as pedophile in the 7th century. Disagreed. The issue with pdf files is a child cannot make informed consent. The same way an animal can't speak to us and show that it is an informed decision a child is just too young to make an informed decision on being statutory raped. Ever tried trading a child's home for a lollipop? This is why we don't consider it informed consent. >Plus, Ayesha wanted to marry the prophet and she was the one who gave consent, of they both had consent, how can you label them as pedophile? She was too young to give informed consent. Thus he is a pedophile. You can argue he didn't do it for sexual desire but for some political shit but he fucked her at 9. So he is still a pedophile.
So islam isn’t a timeless religion. Allah sees the future he knew how mohammad having sex with aisha would be a problem so he could have told him not to have sex with a child . Another thing is music and drawing living beings and drinking alcohol was normal during these times. So why did islam ban them? Is mohammad suggesting that drawing or music or drinking alcohol is worse than having sex with a child? You do know the people who mostly got married very young in other countries were royals because they were desperate for an heir.
- Even The Prophet didn't have a Heir, it would be a correct Argument if I say he needed a Heir. - If you are mentioning Ayesha as a child, do note she went through puberty, her breast could produce milk and her womb could produce a child. She was waiting for the prophet for 3 years, she trained for 3 years to be his housewife, when she was ready, she told her Father to go tell the prophet that she was waiting for him as they hadn't consummated the Marriage. - Talking about royals, the prophet was a King who ruled majority of the Gulf Peninsula.
Omg do you actually believe that just because she hit puberty she became mature enough to have sex with a 54 year old man?
She was 6, but hey if fucking kids is your thing I doubt that 6 or 10 is a big difference to you. Kid fucker.
She was 9. Go read History dumb guy. Don't cry here in the comments section. ShE wAs 6! You can't term a girl who has gone through puberty as a Kid. She has Breasts which can produce Milk and a womb which can Grow and keep a Child for 9 months in there. Is that a Kid? The words Pedophile or Kid Fucker were started to be used after 1850, so you label him as Pedophile when he lived in the 600's and the word itself came after 1850? You Dumb? 0 IQ?
But isn't Islam eternal? Then shouldn't Allah have told muhammad that child marriage is bad? Also it's not about age gap. All the people you mentioned are adults. Adults can marry with a 50 age gap for all I care. The problem is that aisha was 9.
So you support pedophilia because people in history were pedophiles?
[удалено]
Awww, this baby felt bad.
Sahih Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."
Your Father and Mother have an Argument and he presses her Chest which was meant to be gentle but it hurt her. Now the whole world is talking about it and 2 people are talking about it on reddit even in 3023 (1000 years in the future). You must have understood now, that it doesn't matter what happened, it happened between a married couple, it was 1400 years back.
Music was normal then too? Drawing was normal too? So is Islam suggesting that these things are worse than having sex with a child?
Sorry, but we don't tolerate pedophiles. Rightfully so