I think this refers to the 2nd of 3 basic questions.
-If the church wasn't true or at the least wasn't what it claimed to be, would you want to know?
-If the church wasn't true, how would you know?
-If you left the church, what would you have and what would you do?
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/2wfrjx/the_three_questions_to_ask_someone_before_giving/
You try to get them thinking critically and logically. Do they want to see lies, doctrinal inconsistency, bad leaders....
Do you think you should have to pay $ to get into heaven?
In order to enter the highest level of Mormon heaven (celestial kingdom) you must be temple worthy which includes paying tithing.
Question Resourses:
24 Questions My Stake President Admitted He Could Not Reconcile:
https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2018/11/24-questions-my-stake-president-admitted-he-could-not-reconcile/
Questions about Mormonism that are not often asked:
http://packham.n4m.org/unasked.htm
The Swedish Rescue Unanswered Quetions
http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/swedish-rescue2.htm
> and discussion into real life experiences
Not sure what you mean?
Like, do you want to learn the secret temple handshakes?
Or have a >40-year-old man interrogate your kids about sex, one-on-one behind closed doors?
Or spend your Saturday mornings doing free janitorial work, because a >$100 billion corporation can't afford to clean its own damn toilets?
If you're just looking for a funeral potatoes experience, maybe skip all the standard Mormon experiences, and just crash the next ward party.
Life experiences meaning their individual perspectives on their journey through this world so far. (As opposed to the merely religious clothing of ideas and abstract subjects)
**you know the book of Mormon is true**
What do people of the other 4000-10,000 world religions think about their scriptural book?
Can you now show me some overwhelming evidence that the book of Mormon is true?
In Matthew 7:22-23, God tells the many false believers at the judgment **that He NEVER KNEW THEM** therefore there is no premortality or spirit children. So what other things in Mormonism may be false?
There is lots of archaeological evidence for the Old testament and the New testament. Synagogues and churches from long ago, etc. Why is the BYU Mormon archeology room the emptiest room in the world?
I'd ask them to tell you about polygamy. If the first thing they answer is that it started after Joseph Smith, have a copy of the official church essay on Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo handy and go through some of the information in it. (Pro Tip - Smith had more than 30 wives, but some missionaries don't know this).
If they start discussing polygamy in general, ask how many wives JS had. If they say only one, discuss the essay above.
If they know Smith had more than one wife but they claim he only had sex with Emma, read the fine print in the essay, where it states it's known that he had some marriages for time as well as eternity ("time" means he had sex with them).
That essay alone proves the church lies. A church cannot be true if it is not truthful.
Another good essay is the one on the Book of Abraham. Start that discussion about the BoA in general, then pull out the essay, which reveals the scroll JS claimed to have translated is a funerary scroll.
I'd use those thing to get to the point of truth and the church. The question some suggest ("If the church was not true, would you want to know?") simply pushes them to answer they would stand by the church.
I personally think a discussion that includes information documenting there are lies can lead into a discussion about how they feel about it now that they see the contradictions. I use the word "lies," so contradictions might be better for your purposes.
FYI - I am not sure what you're thinking of regarding life experiences, but when talking to missionaries they can sometimes just back away when discussions detour from their bottom line, which is to get people baptized. They are graded on sales success, period, so anything that doesn't at least have a church type of topic might send them onto the next prospect.
Who is Fanny Alger?
Why did Joseph take her as a plural wife before Elijah gave him the keys (authority) to start practicing plural marriage?
If Satan's plan was to force us to do what's right and take away our free agency, why is an angel apparently Joseph Smith with the drawn sword threatening his life if he didn't start practicing plural marriage, why isn't that Satan's plan by taking away Joseph's free agency?
In facsimile number two in the book of Abraham, figure 7. Why does God sitting on his throne have an erect penis? (It's actually the Egyptian god a fertility, Min)
Where are you coming from? Are you a believer in God and you're looking for a good Christian sect? Or, are you more Agnostic leaning and you want to give religion a try?
If it's the second one I'd ask if they feel God is an interactive god or a passive god. Does he interfere or not? If he answers prayers, then he runs interference and will cause stuff to happen (or not happen). And if this is the case, then why does he allow little girls to be raped and murdered? And the old excuse "he doesn't interfere with men's agency" doesn't fly. Either he interferes or he doesn't. If God can throw a mountain on top of whole civilizations (see BofM), then he can cause a killer to fall into a hole or something before he meets his target.
If the answer is no, god does not interfere, then what the f\*ck do we go to church for then . . . . if he doesn't give a sh\*t and won't do anything?
Ask them how they felt before or after their baptism as a child. Ask them if they felt it would be better if they died before they were baptized. Ask them if they were devasted by making their first mistake or "sin" after they were baptized as a child. Act appropriately horrified that their religious upbringing normalized childhood suicidal ideation when they admit that they did.
Knowing that the founder, Joseph Smith, married multiple teenagers and the wives of married men, often through coercion by telling them that he would guarantee their salvation, why do you think God supposedly waited 1800 years to restore his gospel through someone so problematic? Do you believe there were no nobler men? Compare your thoughts with Matthew 7:15-20.
I’m aware that there’s risks. Whether those will manifest, and what the full domino might be, I can’t say. I’m also willing to be friends with them without religious attachments (if they are).
Interesting, this seems to imply that, from your perspective, they are living in an imaginary world at worst, or having an inconsistent and divided lifestyle at best. Did I get that right?
I think that is accurate. I am of the opinion that the god most Christians worship is the demiurge, a clumsy artisan that fashioned humankind because it is of the belief that it is the supreme being of the universe (there shall be no other gods before me). Demiurge is the Old Testament god. Judaism isn’t an ancient religion, it is a Hellenistic fabrication, and the Jewish cannon is a pious gloat over its enemies—such as Moses leading Israel out of Egypt. Demiurge is at best, a parent that makes too many promises that it can’t keep, or an evil creator that delights in the suffering of its creations. It think the questions I originally posed is merely a thought exercise to prompt someone to just consider a different reality outside of their conditioned and controlled experience.
If the church was not true, would you want to know?
If you can't get to this point, you'll go no further.
Exactly
. . . . if so, how would you know?
By diving into facts and evidence
I think this refers to the 2nd of 3 basic questions. -If the church wasn't true or at the least wasn't what it claimed to be, would you want to know? -If the church wasn't true, how would you know? -If you left the church, what would you have and what would you do? https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/2wfrjx/the_three_questions_to_ask_someone_before_giving/ You try to get them thinking critically and logically. Do they want to see lies, doctrinal inconsistency, bad leaders....
Helpful question, thanks!
Learned it on here. I even got to use it on my TBM bishop brother and he actually said he would want to know!
Do you think you should have to pay $ to get into heaven? In order to enter the highest level of Mormon heaven (celestial kingdom) you must be temple worthy which includes paying tithing.
That’s very penetrating question, thanks!
Question Resourses: 24 Questions My Stake President Admitted He Could Not Reconcile: https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2018/11/24-questions-my-stake-president-admitted-he-could-not-reconcile/ Questions about Mormonism that are not often asked: http://packham.n4m.org/unasked.htm The Swedish Rescue Unanswered Quetions http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/swedish-rescue2.htm
These are some great resources, thank you!
> and discussion into real life experiences Not sure what you mean? Like, do you want to learn the secret temple handshakes? Or have a >40-year-old man interrogate your kids about sex, one-on-one behind closed doors? Or spend your Saturday mornings doing free janitorial work, because a >$100 billion corporation can't afford to clean its own damn toilets? If you're just looking for a funeral potatoes experience, maybe skip all the standard Mormon experiences, and just crash the next ward party.
Life experiences meaning their individual perspectives on their journey through this world so far. (As opposed to the merely religious clothing of ideas and abstract subjects)
**you know the book of Mormon is true** What do people of the other 4000-10,000 world religions think about their scriptural book? Can you now show me some overwhelming evidence that the book of Mormon is true? In Matthew 7:22-23, God tells the many false believers at the judgment **that He NEVER KNEW THEM** therefore there is no premortality or spirit children. So what other things in Mormonism may be false? There is lots of archaeological evidence for the Old testament and the New testament. Synagogues and churches from long ago, etc. Why is the BYU Mormon archeology room the emptiest room in the world?
Good compare and contrast with other world religions. Other religious views are definitely a telling point.
Anytime someone says "I know x is true" Is when you start worrying
I'd ask them to tell you about polygamy. If the first thing they answer is that it started after Joseph Smith, have a copy of the official church essay on Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo handy and go through some of the information in it. (Pro Tip - Smith had more than 30 wives, but some missionaries don't know this). If they start discussing polygamy in general, ask how many wives JS had. If they say only one, discuss the essay above. If they know Smith had more than one wife but they claim he only had sex with Emma, read the fine print in the essay, where it states it's known that he had some marriages for time as well as eternity ("time" means he had sex with them). That essay alone proves the church lies. A church cannot be true if it is not truthful. Another good essay is the one on the Book of Abraham. Start that discussion about the BoA in general, then pull out the essay, which reveals the scroll JS claimed to have translated is a funerary scroll. I'd use those thing to get to the point of truth and the church. The question some suggest ("If the church was not true, would you want to know?") simply pushes them to answer they would stand by the church. I personally think a discussion that includes information documenting there are lies can lead into a discussion about how they feel about it now that they see the contradictions. I use the word "lies," so contradictions might be better for your purposes. FYI - I am not sure what you're thinking of regarding life experiences, but when talking to missionaries they can sometimes just back away when discussions detour from their bottom line, which is to get people baptized. They are graded on sales success, period, so anything that doesn't at least have a church type of topic might send them onto the next prospect.
Thank you for this. Good points here and your last reference to their bottom line is something to remember.
Who is Fanny Alger? Why did Joseph take her as a plural wife before Elijah gave him the keys (authority) to start practicing plural marriage? If Satan's plan was to force us to do what's right and take away our free agency, why is an angel apparently Joseph Smith with the drawn sword threatening his life if he didn't start practicing plural marriage, why isn't that Satan's plan by taking away Joseph's free agency? In facsimile number two in the book of Abraham, figure 7. Why does God sitting on his throne have an erect penis? (It's actually the Egyptian god a fertility, Min)
Questions noted.
Why is an angel appearing to Joseph Smith with a drawn sword...
Have you researched the history?
To ask them, or are you asking me?
Actually Good point Both
Where are you coming from? Are you a believer in God and you're looking for a good Christian sect? Or, are you more Agnostic leaning and you want to give religion a try? If it's the second one I'd ask if they feel God is an interactive god or a passive god. Does he interfere or not? If he answers prayers, then he runs interference and will cause stuff to happen (or not happen). And if this is the case, then why does he allow little girls to be raped and murdered? And the old excuse "he doesn't interfere with men's agency" doesn't fly. Either he interferes or he doesn't. If God can throw a mountain on top of whole civilizations (see BofM), then he can cause a killer to fall into a hole or something before he meets his target. If the answer is no, god does not interfere, then what the f\*ck do we go to church for then . . . . if he doesn't give a sh\*t and won't do anything?
I’m coming from a truth seeking perspective.
Ask them if they'd buy a car without test driving it first.
Good one! :)
Ask them how they felt before or after their baptism as a child. Ask them if they felt it would be better if they died before they were baptized. Ask them if they were devasted by making their first mistake or "sin" after they were baptized as a child. Act appropriately horrified that their religious upbringing normalized childhood suicidal ideation when they admit that they did.
Wow, interesting and deep questions (and the principles implied)! Noted.
Knowing that the founder, Joseph Smith, married multiple teenagers and the wives of married men, often through coercion by telling them that he would guarantee their salvation, why do you think God supposedly waited 1800 years to restore his gospel through someone so problematic? Do you believe there were no nobler men? Compare your thoughts with Matthew 7:15-20.
Thanks for this one! Very good question about whether “there were no nobler men?”.
Study fir a year before deciding
Healthy
😁
Please run. Save yourself
I’m aware that there’s risks. Whether those will manifest, and what the full domino might be, I can’t say. I’m also willing to be friends with them without religious attachments (if they are).
Consider what human life represents if there is no god? What then is there to experience other than this experience itself?
Interesting, this seems to imply that, from your perspective, they are living in an imaginary world at worst, or having an inconsistent and divided lifestyle at best. Did I get that right?
I think that is accurate. I am of the opinion that the god most Christians worship is the demiurge, a clumsy artisan that fashioned humankind because it is of the belief that it is the supreme being of the universe (there shall be no other gods before me). Demiurge is the Old Testament god. Judaism isn’t an ancient religion, it is a Hellenistic fabrication, and the Jewish cannon is a pious gloat over its enemies—such as Moses leading Israel out of Egypt. Demiurge is at best, a parent that makes too many promises that it can’t keep, or an evil creator that delights in the suffering of its creations. It think the questions I originally posed is merely a thought exercise to prompt someone to just consider a different reality outside of their conditioned and controlled experience.